>Valve has not only stated explicitly that game developers do not need native ports, but according to developer Ethan “flibitijibibo” Lee, Valve may also be reaching out to developers and asking them to use Proton instead of native portswhat now lincucks?>tfw EEE is real and valve is the one doing it>linuxcucks cucked out of native games forever>windows will be the dominant api forever>lincucks now have to stay in the cuck cage of valve's compatibility layer overhead forever while windowschads fuck their waifus in front of them lmfaohttps://nuclearmonster.com/2021/07/ethan-flibitijibibo-lee-may-retire-from-programming-due-to-valves-proton/
>>82643231>do not need>askingI'm asking you to fuck off, but you're not going to.
>>82643231I'm not a /v/irgin and my machines are not glorified bing bing wahoo happy meal toys. Not my problem.
If it's developed as a proprietary linux native game, it'll bit-rot to death after linux 6.x or 7.xIf it's developed as a windows game to be emulated with wine, it'll stay around forever, and become better over time.
>>82643231>makes linux based os>makes hardware running linux based os>wants gamers to buy this hardware>tells developers to just code for windows>also tells developers to make shit play nice with a windows compatibility layer for linux based os>gamers now have the super stable and reliable experience of running linux to play games made by people who are discouraged from using linux, through software that makes it work on linuxgod i love linux and this is fucking retarded, it'll be like running something back and forth through google translate a few times and expecting readable results.
>>82643231So ? At least wine will get better, nobody needs gaymes but i'd like to run proprietary microshit shit for work with greater easedmvxx
>>82643231dont care, still mvn package | java -jar myJar.jar
>>82643231This is unironically good.Statically linked binaries in Linux tend to stop working after major kernel updates.Like, for example, I have a boxed copy of Quake 4 for linux that will NOT work in any modern distro. Meanwhile, Wine keeps the PC version running fine.Linux did this to themselves. They abandon libraries that used to be standard several times a year. This is why you always have to build shit from source, and modify the source to use newer compatible libraries if they don't exist anymore or their old commands were changed or removed.
>>82643308so much for loonix cocvalds'>MUH USERSPACE>MUH STABLE ABI
BING BING WAHOO, YIPPEE!
>>82643294>>82643308>YOU WILL HAVE NO NATIVE PORTS>YOU WILL USE A KEKPATIBILITY LAYER>AND YOU WILL PRETEND TO BE A PROPRIETARY OS>AND YOU WILL LIKE ITLMAO LINCVCKS
>>82643231Good, all of those games are proprietary, they should be in a box, not run natively
>>82643356>Good, all of those games are proprietary, they should be in a box, not run natively
This just in:OP not doing so hot after getting responses she wasn't expecting. Linux community continues to give zero fucks about native proprietary software and bing bing wahoo.
> Valve encourages Windows game developers to use free APIsBased. More games will use Vulkan, SDL and other non-proprietary APIs. That's direct threat to windows.
>>82643381Do the needful, freak
>>82643279This Even if I made a game with Unity or Unreal that allows me to make a Linux build with a button click, I still wouldn't do it. It'd just make all 3 of my extremely entitled Linux users shit up my reviews by loudly complaining that my game doesn't work on their 2003 Cyrix box with hand rolled-Gentoo.
>>82643279>b-but the dynamic linking though... for the lunix experience(c) performance(tm) gain..>game bitrots like how android bitrots old APKsSpot on
>>82643352>You WILL do whatever you please with your own hardware
>>82643279>If it's developed as a proprietary linux native game, it'll bit-rot to death after linux 6.x or 7.x?
>>82643279>proprietary linux native gamewhy the fuck would anyone do this?release the source or fuck ofd
A proper way to push Proton I guess? Who gives a shit, next LTSC is 10 21H2 so I don't give a fuck about linux right now.
Don't care, still dual booting windows.
This is fine. I remember Loki.
>>82643273>>82643381>"I'm not a /v/irgin and my machines are not glorified bing bing wahoo happy meal toys. Not my problem.">the /g/entooman shook as he typed with his fat hands on his 2004 IBM thinkpad and pressed the post button>"that will show those /v/irgins how little I care about this proprietary GARBAGE", he thought to himself as he took off his diaper>"I mean, why does proprietary software even exist? it's TRASH" he though, as he sniffed his balls and looked to the framed picture of richard stallman on his wall>the /g/entooman opened a terminal and fired up an X11 picture viewer from 2003 to browse through his library of photos, via a symlink of course because he's a l33t, because his minimalist i3 gentoo setup doesn't need bloatware trash like a GUI file explorer>as he went through his collection, looking at pictures of scantily clad anime "women" made his 1 inch penis hard>he started jerking off>twelve seconds later, he shot his "load" into one of his socks and threw it into the pile>he took out a dr pepper from his ice box and started drinking it with his unclean hands when he noticed something>his bucket of chicken tendies was empty>"MOM!! I TOLD YOU TO GIVE ME MY TENDIES BY 5 PM!!" he screamed>"sorry sweetie, I'll bring them right down!" a voice replied. "can you bring your peebottles to the front door please? they are starting to stink">"I TOLD YOU IT'S NOT PEE, IT'S SOME EXPERIMENTAL FLUID I'M RESEARCHING!!1 GODDAMMIT">"ok sweetie">just then, his mail check cronjob triggered a notification by playing an OGG file with mpv>he fired up his handcrafted ncurses CLI IMAP client to check his cock.li email account>it was an email from a professor from his community college distance learning course>"Dear Mr Anonymous, I'm writing to inform you that the assignment you sent last week is not in an acceptable file format (ODF). Please use one of the valid formats (DOC or DOCX) and resend by tomorrow">"FUCKING PROPRIEETARY TRAAAAASH" he screamed
>>82643420>>82643411>>82643333>>82643308Maybe you loonix fucks should write a wine compatibility layer for 10 year old versions of linux so you can actually run historical linux software without hunting down 10 year old versions of every library, toolchain component and build system used to compile the software.
>>82643231Bold of you to assume I use one operating system
>>82643231Valve is doing all of us a service because 9 times out of 10 linux ports are complete dogshit that barely works and the other 1 is straight up not functional. You'll have far better luck running windows build over Proton than have a working linux build.
>>82643231To be fair, windows apis are pretty comprehensive.
Can't windows 10 just be installed on it? What's the point of proton then?
>>82643279excellent, planned obsolesce as intended, consoooom more
>>82643458There is a significant cultural difference between Linux and Windows.Windows basically offers binary compatibility almost forever. You can run a 20-year-old binary produced by Delphi 3.x or some shit like that and it will just work.Linux is more source-based, and it's expected that developers will recompile (the entire software ecosystem is based around packaging systems that build from source). This is a probably for proprietary software shipped in binary-only form; this means a binary that works on distro A in 2020 might not work on distro B, or indeed even on distro A in 2025.It's not exactly Valve's fault.
>>82643660So if you just compile it, it will work again? What is the Problem, then?
>>82643660you can't run windows 9x shit out of the box on windows 10 anymore, you have to use dosbox if you want stuff to work
>>82643620Windows 10 costs money. Also it's pretty heavy on resources which a handheld doesn't have much of. >>82643283No it's actually good. It forces devs to write proper code in order for it to work over proton, which simultaneously makes it a good windows code that won't break once a system bug is fixed or some shit. It also completely removes the need to make and maintain a linux build which nobody does properly anyway.
>>82643680yes you can
>>82643679Most games do not and will never release source code.
>>82643679yes loonixtard, no problem at all. do compile an old package source and deal with the 123092830192830912839128309123 errors because your package manager does not have old versions of the linked libraries so you need to download them all from old ratholes like an SVN tree at savannah.gnu.org and individually compile them again and hope that an ABI change does not fuck you over
>>82643681>Windows 10 costs moneyHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
>>82643711but that's the fun partgo to >>>/v/
>>82643726running an activation cracker does not make it free you software pirate
>>82643680You cant run 16 bit programs but 32 and 64 bit windows programs work forever.The reason why 16 bit programs dont work is because of an AMD64 limitation where virtual 8086 mode (i.e. 16 bit emulation) doesnt work in 64 bit mode.
>>82643732I think he means that valve would not have to pay for it, because Windows dominance is good for Microsoft even when they don't get license fees. So valve would probably have to pay fuck all or at least get very good prices, not standard consumer windows prices. Just like normal computers come with windows, but are not really cheaper when you buy them without it.
>>82643231they're doing it to avoid shit like civ6, where a loonix port was made but it was so awful it was unplayable until they made proton work with the game
>>82643681It has 16gb of ram good ssd apu et it will run fineLinux compatiblity for vidya is shit man
That's good, but will this push do anything about programs like MS Office or the Adobe Suite? There's been a push towards getting gaymes working on linux throughout the last 3-4 years to the point where some AAA title could come out now and only a layer of DRM could stop it from running fine on linux. However getting fucking good old Illustrator to work fine on Linux, I never managed. Let alone stuff like Premiere Pro (thankfully I'm not much into that, and Olive suffices).
>>82643750>pay money to microshit just to have bloatware 10 installed which does not benefits you>pay money to freetards to develop proton which will benefit you in the long run
>>82643763take your meds. now.
>>82643273>bing bing wahoo what is this? I've been seeing this phrase pop up a lot over the past few weeks, did I miss something?
>>82643764Loonix can technically run gayems even better than Wangblows, the problem is that its retarded source-based philosophy makes it impossible to stay up to date unless you have a dedicated freetard maintainer, as opposed to just making a binary and releasing it into the wild which is guaranteed to work for super long time completely unattended.
>>82643570>1 line reply>cook up a whole story to send backThis says more about you than the other guy.Nice fiction though.
>>82643793it's an old /v/ meme from 2012 or solook up quentin memes /v/ if you're confused
>>82643773>will this push do anything about programs like MS Office or the Adobe Suiteboth work on any browser, cloud services
>>82643793It's the sound Mario makes
>>82643802Oh fuck off. That's not the same.
>>82643801GoyQuentin was sure based and ahead of his time.
does this not mean that per definition games will have worse performance on Steam deck than on windows with the same hardware because of the overhead of proton? why is that not a cause for concern?
>>82643801>Reading in publicOnly if you're reading classic works of literature such as The Great Gatsby.
>>82643791>take your meds. now.My meds is shitting into the mouthes of jews, clears me right up.You're not a jew and I'm not right though, right? Otherwise I wouldn't need meds.Fucking jews am I right? They truly are the scum of the earth, fucking limp wristed loser faggot that couldn't fight a fight on their own even if their lives depended on it.Think they're the originals of all humans but have to speak a nigger pidgin version of German, yiddish to even communicate.Think they're well educated but you will never find a learned jew outside of the influence of Germanics.Fucking dregs, man
>>82643826What overhead?All it does is translate windows and dx11 syscalls to the equivalent ones on linux.
>>82643826Windows is so bloated that some gaymes run better in Linux with proton. https://youtu.be/S4k5l99XODc
>>82643826By what definition, ya tardo? Wine substitutes windows calls for equivalent linux calls, there is no overhead. A lot of the time it actually runs faster because the linux version of the same code is more efficient.
>>82643826>implying this whole freetard shenanigan wasn't just a scam for gaben to dodge windows licensing feesjust trust Proton(TM), goy
>>82643826WINE is not an emulator
>>82643796Sounds like a general Linux problem
>>82643231but /g/ told me that proton offers better performance.
>>82643679Have fun reverse engineering every single game in existence because that will happen sooner than any relevant game releasing the source code.
>>82643849It's not really a problem when it's open source and at least one person on earth still cares about the project, someone will make the neccessary changes to keep it running.That doesn't happen when you shit out binaries that only work on one distro version from 2009.
So it's a fork Linux problem have fun wtf that
>>82643844>capture a windows syscall>look for complement in a hashtable>construct a loonix syscall>dispatch the loonix syscall>this entire process has no overhead because WINE works in infinitesimal timefreetard geniuses, everyone
So some guy is malding because he was asked not to release native ports for a few indie games if I'm getting this right
>>82643879if your game runs like shit on wine it runs like shit on windows too
>>82643883>maldingthis is an 18+ website ya stoopid zoomer>>>/v/
>>82643900>maldingYou seem to know what that is what the fuck is he on about?
>>82643231> imagine paying and playing current year vidyaat least in my days piracy was a thing
>>82643895>if your game runs like shit on wine it runs like shit on windows too
>>82643929>reddit approved gay man reaction pic
>>82643231pic related>freetards btfo
>>82643961>20% auto reported crashessomeone wrote shit code
>>82643231Yes.The Linux userspace isn't set up for flinging bins around the way Windows is. You can make it work but it has lots of issues. If you won't publish the source then don't bother with native ports.
>>82643987>what is static linking>what are appimagesretard
>>82643977yes, that someone was the part time nvidia janny tasked with writing drivers for your irrelevant OS
>>82643602This.They just experienced in making mistakes, such as their first SteamOS and hope on native linux builds.Thing is, most of time, proton layer is working way-way better than linux build of same game.Meanwhile, devs are getting more headache(that one user that has problem with linux build, or even just need to update both linux and windows builds separately)Valve is saving devs time, which is, based in my book.
>>82643879>>capture a windows syscallThere's no capturing you retard, it's an alternate C runtime. It's also not looked up in a hash table the dynamic linker sets it up as a jump.
>>82643934>Footcheese approved freetard cope
>>82643993AppImages break on incompatible versions of libc. Static linking breaks a lot of stuff and has serious security issues.
>>82643961>Despite being <0.1% of the population, they make up for >20% of the crashes.LOONIXDINDUS ON SUICIDE WATCH
>>82644064>serious security issues.Meme.
>>82644064Also statically linking glibc and not publishing the source would violate the lgpl. Game devs pirating GNU.
>>82644075>auto reported crashes
>>82644087Oh? Which CVE free TLS implementation do you statically link in your apps?
>a bunch of toe cheese eating hobo dweebs in their moms basement can write a functional windows compatibility layer for linux (WINE)>a gorillion dollar megacorporation's 1000 pajeet engineers fail to write a linux compatibility layer for windows even though all of linux's source is publicly available (WSL1), get assmad and abandon it in favor of a glorified VM (WSL2)why are micropajeets like this?
>>82644064how does wangblows avoid this problem with PE binaries, 1 millions runtimes and 1 trillion DLLs?
Valve is working in its own Linux tooling.It consists in running Games inside containers like Flatpak and having a stable environment to run each game.They aren't pushing for native ports because they need to have all the documentation and the technology done.https://gitlab.steamos.cloud/steamrt/steam-runtime-tools/-/tree/master/pressure-vessel
>>82644143Really they avoid libraries breaking their ABIs which creates a ton of extra work. Linux doesn't have to worry about that since the Applications and the rest of the OS are all built together by distro maintainers. That doesn't work without publicly available source though.
>>82643660But containers should solve this.
>>82643799>thinking he wrote that himselfLurk moar
>>82643832Indeed, one can never read too much of good, or too little of bad, literature.
>launch mgsv: ground zeroes>doesn't actually launch because weird weeb drm>no need for portslol
>>82644626>containers are less annoying than wine>binaries being anything other than malwareThis is why we wanted the gaymers to stay on Windows.
Isn't proton literally just wine?
>>82643231This is fine. The currently existing native ports are more often than not more broken than just running the windows version in wine/proton. Devs usually just target ubuntu or something outdated like that, and lib compatibility with many distros is just broken out-of-the-box. Also, not everyone runs pulseaudio, which is unfortunately the only sound API many games use.Until something more of a general target like >>82644206 becomes a thing, I'd rather stick to running games in Proton than deal with the incompetency of the game devs. Valve has promised 100% support before the end of the year, and I'm already feeling the effects of this, games which did not run at all just 3 months ago work flawlessly and frequently faster than on windows!It's unfortunate we have to rely on some bloat, but it's the fastest way to reach the Year of the Linux Desktop. >>82644788Wine + shitton of game-specific fixes and tuning
>>82644799oh btw not even Valve manages to ship Linux natives well, CSGO just segfaults on my machine now
Valve is playing the long game.It's no secret that a lot of Linux ports are garbage, and the Windows versions in Proton perform better. There's not enough market share for many developers to put the effort into making good ports, of they make ports at all.By encouraging developers to target Proton instead, they lower the Linux barrier-to-entry for developers which will get more games working well on Linux and more people using Linux. Once the market share is substantial, we'll probably see more well-made native ports since it'll be worth squeezing out that extra performance.
>>82644974Steam machines: *exists*
>>82645072Only in the same sense as "OUYA exists.">>82644974You know full well that's not gonna happen, splintering doesn't benefit anyone and there's no reason to splinter anything when windows builds run on linux as it is. Fundamentally the reason why TYOLD will never happen is that freetard "just recompile it bro" strategy doesn't works for anyone who's not a freetard, and only a tiny number of people appreciate the idea at all, much less of them are willing to walk the mile and actually release the sources.
>>82645112the year of the (proprietary) linux desktop is going to happen soon though. we got where we wanted to but we lost our soul along the way
>>82645131Proprietary software only works for as long as the entire kernel is set in stone and isn't allowed to change for any reason. Windows sticks to it, Linux doesn't. Anything proprietary released on Linux will die very quickly due to external changes, which to a user is the same as if said proprietary apps never existed in the first place - Linux landscape will remain barren, which will stop people from adopting it. 30 years later, it's time to acknowledge that "compatibility through global updates" was a fun experiment but ultimately unsustainable, and that Microsoft had the right idea all along.
>>82643578writing a compatibility layer would be an enormous task for any linux developer.>>82645173>Windows sticks to itah. so that's why a lot of older windows software doesn't function correctly. because windows is better! amazing. no, they're both equally as bad at maintaining compatibility. try playing some games made in the 1990s, complete with copy protections, using windows 10 and you let us know how you go, computer illiterate fantasist.
>>82645186Try to run any Linux software made in the 90s and report back, retard.
>>82645194see:>no, they're both equally as bad learn to read, you mentally disabled pedophile.
>>82644626>shipping an os inside your os because your entire software ecosystem is brokenFreetard problems
>>82645193Diablo 2 works fine, fuck off retard.
>>82643231Valve is playing the long game. Focus on making Windows games run near flawless in Proton, then as time passes and more progress is made and developers are more familiar working with Linux, then native Linux ports can start to appear.Baby steps, anon, baby steps
Linux isn’t meant for gayming manchildren. Fuck off.
>>82643231Because using Proton is better and cheaper than producing a half arsed port. Linux has a chicken or the egg problem and this will solve it.
>>82645280if games work flawlessly on both by just building for windows, why would you as a developer put in a ton of extra effort to basically get the same thing as before?
Now if only wayland wasn't an input laggy piece of shit and freesync was properly and fully supported
I envision a future where people develop Proton video games and Windows users get the leftovers
>>82645343>using wayland when x11 does everything betterstop falling for reddit memes anon
is proton/DXVK going to get directstorage like windows 11? it can be a game changer
PE is the superior executable format because it runs on a vast variety of kernels either natively or translated.
>>82645349x11 cannot handle anything display related that isn't basic. Mixed refresh rates on it are akin to cock and ball torture.
What poofs actually still play video games? Honestly sad lol.
>>82645345well that's what Valve seems to wantmake Linux the new ecosystem for PC gaming, free from Microsoft and any attempts by them to impose a walled garden
>>82644721Uncultured manchildren will never understand.
>>82643231I know this thread is bait but still.>implying there was native games on Linux before ProtonThe only one were, just you wait... Valve's games.Without them gaming on Linux would still be completely dead.
>>82643231Linux userspace ABIs are unstable as fuck and most native ports so far have been abysmal to the point that the Windows versions run better under wine. Volvo telling devs to make sure their games run on proton rather than telling them to make more half-assed ports that stop working after a few years is not really a surprising move tbqh.
>>82643231I 100% support Valve on thisI would much rather have a just works proton port than a native build.Why? Because the source for videogames is unavailable most of the time and most game devs(I SHIT YOU NOT) are too incompotent to have a binary that works 5 years in the future or source code that even compiles.Even Microsoft should start working with valve on proton and start using it for legacy support.I am dead serious.
Win32 won. It is the definition of a stable and practical API that you can rely on to get shit done. POSIX is only useful for hobbyists that think recompiling their shit every day is a good use of their time.Kneel.
>>82643279This, sadly. The amount of times I've had a native Linux game was broken as fuck or ran almost twice as worse than running it with Proton is fucking ridiculous. Just save dev time and make sure it works with a proton version. Who gives a shit outside of that.
>>82645829>win32 won>meanwhile microshit is actively replacing it with winRT as we speak
>>82643231I don't see a problem there, you still get your vidya one way or another, making native ports doesn't make financial sense to devs and that's understandable
>>82643733Not if they use some old windows apis and methodologies.
>>82643643>noooo you have to support 30 year old shitty design decisions and the atrocious security disaster that leads to
>>82643231no they don't. They encourage vulkan but say they will handle it if you don't want to bother
>>82645853And no one actually uses WinRT since Win32 just werks™ and it isn't going anywhere. With Wine getting as good as it is MS would be fucking retarded to get rid of Win32 on Windows.
>>82645853You have any idea how many times they attempted to kill off win32?Its litterally too successful to dieI think even microsoft should start adopting and contributing to wine just because of all the bullshit they have to go though for muh legacy
>>82643279flatpak exists, not Linux' fault anymore
>>82645877>>82645887killing wine would be a huge advantage for microshit as they would get rid of a potential competitor platformthey failed with trying to directly replace win32 so they are trying to sneakily feed it to people, google "project reunion" you fucks
>imagine playing video games on some gay lame windows PC>not playing the latest video games on Xbox Game Streaming straight from the cloud to your phoneget with the times old man
>>82645899Flatpak is shit for gamesEspecially if you want quick access
>>82645919>Especially if you want quick accesswhat does this even mean you dumb retard
>>82643578If you weren't a mouthbreathing vidyatard you'd know that steam has a compatibility layer for exactly this scenario. And if you're making any new apps, flatpak solves this exact issue.
>>82645887Unfortunately that poster was illegal and it didnt last long lol
https://partner.steamgames.com/doc/steamdeck/recommendationshttps://partner.steamgames.com/doc/steamdeck/protonSeems like Valve is recommending devs to>use Vulkan>support offline play>stop using .NET/WPF>stop using proprietary Microsoft multimedia codecs>stop using anti-cheat drivers>stop using agressive and fragile DRM and anti-tamper solutionsSounds pretty good for me as far as niggerlicious proprietary gaymen goes.>>82645899Do we actually know how flatpak is going to handle their deprecated runtimes for decades to come? Games will stop getting updates and they will still need the EOL runtimes they were compiled against. Will those runtimes be always available for download and will the flatpak devs make sure there will be no compatibility issues with them in the future?
>>82643578>>82645932This should be obvious but I meant the steam linux runtime, since I know my post will be misenterpreted by retards thinking I meant Proton.
>>82645931The game filesYou cannot easily find and alter the game files.Also the a fuckton of xdg permissions which while nice for some malware applications are actually fucking annoying.Dont make it any more compicated than it has to be. Use proton
>>82645938isn't that asking a bit too much from poor little game devs? they absolutely love their proprietary shit
>>82643231Native is fucking trash.Proton/Wine will always run be tter.
if we can point people to at least support proton then even BSD gaming can become viable holy shit
>>82645938>Will those runtimes be always available for download and it's just a matter of pointing to the right github release (which flatpak does)... so as long as github exists all runtimes will be available>will the flatpak devs make sure there will be no compatibility issues with them in the future?you can have as many runtimes as you need in parallelSO theoretically no flatpak should ever break
>>82643231Native games usually means poorly optimised ports that only support Ubuntu. Look at Total War Warhammer 2. It literally told me Manjaro is a super old distro and my CPU is unsupported. WTF?Proton is centralised and easy to optimise and upgrade. The 5000 ryzen series have so much single core perf that the extra cycles are not measurable.
>>82645919The newer Proton versions include sandboxing (pressure-vessel) support already but there's issues using them underneath the flatpak sandbox, to work around it you need to install a special flatpak version of proton without it.
>>82646004linuxlator is a pile of shit, and good luck with freaking BSD gpu drivers when linux drivers are already a shitshow
>>82646020That's if you're fucking lucky. For the Unreal 5 engine, native ports means hitting the button to create a Linux port, and then fucking off eternally after
>>82646013Yeah but you are assuming that a new linux technology isn't going to have a major refactoring that will break compatibility with ancient runtimes. They already print a super verbose warning if you have flatpak packages that use a whopping three year old runtime. I just don't trust them to care about it.
>>82646036The newest versions of the Steam flatpak have worked around that being an issue now; so there's no problems
>>82645961>You cannot easily find and alter the game files.you can, if you know where flatpak store all it's data ~/.var/app/. Now you know... it wasn't that hard was it? It's easier than windows, and equivalent with WINE which store it's data is ~/wine/ or something like that>Also the a fuckton of xdg permissionsThat's for rare occasionsGames don't even need permissions. All games are isolated sandboxes, they should never touch anything but the files they made
>>82645899>just use my arbitrary special snowflake containers bro>NOT MY PROBLEM LOLIdiot. Proton is the better choice. Nobody is gonna sit down and write stupid special snowflake bullshit that only runs on some distros.
>>82646044Basically this, yeah. Linux doesn't seem to give a motherfuck about reverse-compatibility with past Linux software. That's both a positive and a negative, I guess. Best of both worlds is having Windows compatibility for things not of Linux and cutting edge Linux programs
>>82643680You absolutely can. It might have some problems, but you can.It's the DOS and Win16 stuff you need DOSBox for.
>>82643231Having a single cross platform solution to games is not a bad idea. Imagine a JVM type system but for games. Of course it's goin to be slow as shit
>>82643660I didn't know that. Now I understand why Linux never took off. It wasnt the UI, or "being hard to use". It's just that your entire library can break with an update, which is exactly the reason many people hate Windows 10.So when I finally get tired enough of Windows 10 breaking shit, I wont even be able to escape to linux. great...
>>82646099nah, nobody gives a shit about that. apple breaks stuff pretty regularly within OS X, yet normies eat that shit up and throw money like the paypigs they are.it is 1. the UI2. lack of applications3. OEM partnerships
>>82646053Only if you have a early beta version of flatpak and bwrap, don't think they've hit stable yet at least on Fedora.
>>82646099That's why valve has been investing so much in wine/proton. Having an independent implementation of the windows apis (should) allow your entire library to work anywhere even if microsoft completely fucks up windows.
>>82646099Just get a normie OS like Linux Mint. Nothing wrong with it, and it won't break shit constantly for you.
>>82646115Ah, gotcha. Using Arch (btw), so I didn't know that. It'll be there soon, though; after we get done beta-testing it for everyone
Gee I wonder why valve isn't telling people to make linux builds during the fucking mess that is the xorg-wayland transition.>b-but muh xwaylandYeah. Yet another compatibility layer. Might as well just use the windows builds that actually work through wine.
>>82646122>Having an independent implementation of the windows apis (should) allow your entire library to work anywhereIt would be interesting if the win32 api lives on thanks to steam. In the future there might be more money for steam on porting enterprise software written for windows than porting games
>>82646161uh.... wine is free though? and codeweavers already does enterprise shit with crossover? and enterprise shit doesn't need the same things as games, which is what proton specializes in. there's new money for you here, mr jewell
>>82646064>you can, if you know where flatpak store all it's data ~/.var/app/. Now you know... it wasn't that hard was it? It's easier than windows, and equivalent with WINE which store it's data is ~/wine/ or something like thatnormal people cant do that anon. All you need to do is use the open folder files on steam>Games don't even need permissions. All games are isolated sandboxes, they should never touch anything but the files they madewhat about mods
>>82646037sure but its a whole lot easier to be compadible with a compatibility layer
>>82646161steam focuses on gamesnot that they dont have professional software in the store.for enterprise use codeweavers
>>82643231Linux changes too damn much. He can control proton, he can't control the whims of freetards. Still don't know why he chose arch over debian...
>>82646294Because gamers love having the newest everything. It's a selling point. And with good reason, proton actually does deliver the "bug fixes and performance improvements" it promises with each version.
>>82643231this is fourth hand doom and gloom and I just don't have any fucking time for it.
Maintain infinity+1 versions of games for every distro and distro version or maintain one thing on one distro.Realistically dealing with one of the major flaws of linux, it makes sense.
>>82644745werks on my machine
>>82643231Honestly, it makes sense. Making games for Proton means that you'll have games that can run on both Linux and Windows. Two birds with one stone.Besides, for older games (XP-era and before), there will never be a native port. Proton/WINE is the only realistic option.
>>82646099The REAL reasons why desktop Linux never took off and isn't taking off anytime soon:>not enough corporate support for desktop Linux>not enough computer manufacturer support for desktop LinuxThat's it.All Linux problems come from these two reasons.
>>82646099>It's just that your entire library can break with an updateNot if you use a stable distro like Debian or Ubuntu LTS
>>82646642Yeah just use an lts distro so your shit only breaks every two years.
>>82643231Eh, Linux ports tend to be pretty shit. Native would be better of course, but proton is good enough if we can't have decent ports.
>>82646294Valve needs the latest kernel, 5.12 introduced a solution for anti-cheathttps://www.kernel.org/doc/html/latest/admin-guide/syscall-user-dispatch.htmlhttps://lkml.org/lkml/2020/5/30/17
>>82643495I'm going to make a cross-platform game one of these days, and my plan is to make it 100% open source, but license it so that nobody can distribute precompiled binaries without my permission. That way I can still charge luddites money if they don't want to lern2compile.
>>82643231This is a good thing for Linux.Proton is better at running Windows games than game devs are at programming for Linux. So with this policy in place we'll actually get more and better games on Linux.
>>82646705I'm sure nobody will play your shitty game wither way
>>82646978common anti-cheat software on modern multiplayer games make direct syscalls on windows because of reasonsthose calls would normally just jump past wine straight to linux and crash the game so wine needed support from the kernel to capure foreign syscalls and direct them back to the userspace where wine can handle them
>>82643773MS Office and the Adobe suite can already be installed on GNU through Wine. They do require extra tweaking though.CAD software and audio production on the other hand are broken.
>we should optimize our kernel to support kernel malware just so we can play cunny games on itThe absolute state of gamers.
>>82647052>those calls would normally just jump past wine straight to linuxi don't understand, why would syscalls jump past wine if wine is the runtime environment for the program?
>>82646978wine isn't a virtual machine or machine emulator, it's actually just an implementation of windows api's, that is, it only handles the userspace, programs need to talk to it through apis built into windowssome anti-cheats on the other hand, are actually partly implemented like drivers, so there is some calls being done between the program and this custom driver, through the windows kerneldue to how wine runs windows programs directly on the cpu like any native linux program, these syscalls go straight to the kernel as usual.. only now the kernel is linux, which the program isn't designed to talk to. wine cannot intercept this normally, since such calls completely bypass the userspacethe work some people are talking about is a new linux (kernel) feature which allows for efficient selective interception of such calls, allowing linux to handle these foreign windows calls by sending them back into userspace to wine for it to handle
>>82647121Issuing a syscall means running a special CPU instruction that stops the current process from running and traps into the kernel. Normally programs do not call these syscalls directly, rather they call a function in the C standard library which then calls the syscall. Wine exploits this intermediate step.Proprietary shitware (i.e. games) jump directly into the syscall to do their malware drm shit.
>>82647121you can just skip libc and issue syscalls manually with some inline assembly on linux toonow why the fuck are they skipping the stable windows apis I do not knowas far as I know nt makes no guarantees that syscalls won't change
>>82647202>as far as I know nt makes no guarantees that syscalls won't changeWell now you realize how much of a fucking pain it has to be to work on the NT kernel. You want to change or improve something but then suddenly this weird Chinese botnet game doesn't work anymore and your customers are complaining.
>>82647144not him but would it be possible to instead have wine do this?>implement fake nt responder that can take a syscall unrecognized by linux and all the syscall's arguments and respond with user space behavior>upon loading an exe into memory, but before calling it, go through its text segment and replace non-linux syscalls with calls to the fake nt responder at a per-instruction level
>>82647254Well who knows what the code is the program is doing, it might modify itself as things go along. DRM shitware likes to do that. Really the approach taken by linux, i.e. forwarding syscalls to a library, is the way to go here.
>>82647202>>82647222Most of the NT interface isn't even publicly documented by Microsoft since you are never supposed to touch it in the first place. These drm/anti-cheat cancerware are incredibly fragile and it wouldn't surprise me if half of the popular multiplayer games of today will be impossible to run ten years from now.
>>82647202they aren't bypassing the apis to do normal stuffthey install signed drivers to handle making sure people aren't doing cheating shit (verifying game binaries, checking for debuggers, etc)>>82647254i don't know enough to make an informed response to this, except that modifying jump locations in a binary before execution is not 100% reliable, self-modifying and otherwise obscured code is a thing, and since this is drm/anti-cheat we're talking about, one of the more likely places to find it
>windows is now just a set of game support libraries for linuxwhat a time to be alive
>>82647336>Linux is just an app>Windows is just a libraryAmazing.
>proprietary software company wants you to be dependent on their proprietary serviceWow, who could have seen this coming...
>>82647361acktually, proton is free software, and can be used outside of steam
>>82646672>>82646978>>82647052>>82647069>>82647121>>82647144>>82647171>>82647202>>82647222>>82647254>>82647272>>82647290>>82647297have you considered just not cheating
>>82643679>game dev goes out of business or gets bought up by publisher that isn't interested in keeping it up to dateNow you're fucked.
>>82647368Not him, but actually, proton is proprietary.It's *mostly* free software, in terms of composition. But it includes proprietary blobs for interfacing with the steam api.
>>82643660linux itself actually has excellent binary compatibilityjust provide the required libraries and you can run just about anything you wantjust to prove a point i downloaded a ut2004 linux demo from 2005 and only needed to install two libraries (one old libc and another for oss sound compatibility) to get it running, no more effort than installing say, an old vc redist on windows
>>82645219>shit in pool>point at party host and laugh>"ha ha your pool is full of shit"
>>82647413well sure, but what exactly are you going to do with steam interface code if steam remains non-free itself?
>>82647441Linux, the kernel, has great binary compatibility, which is why >>82643660 is wrong in his statement. It's just that the Linux desktop, starting with something as basic as the C library, usually isn't. A bummer.Linux is pretty good, GNU not so much.
>>82647144>>82647171>>82647202can't this foreign syscall detection thing be done at userspace level? also why is a non-native program allowed to issue syscalls directly? is there like no isolation at all for programs running under wine?here's my shitty understanding of this whole thing:0. anti cheat is started1. a win32 api call like GetSystemTime() is handled by wine which translates it to whatever the linux equivalent is and passes it over to linux kernel2. some inline assembly like NtOpenFile is launched and translated to 0x00ee in machine code and gets sent to the processor as a CPU instruction3. since its not a valid linux syscall it gets ignored and since the program gets no response from the syscall so it crashes/malfunctionsis this correct?
Is bitrot an actual issue on Linux? I know sometimes packages can mismatch but straight up not working when there's no dependencies?
>>82647467point is it's a distro/software distribution problem (namely keeping old libraries available for easy installation), not a linux problemi know people use "linux" to refer to the whole ecosystem, but you do need to be specific when the problem is itself specific>>82647475>can't this foreign syscall detection thing be done at userspace level?i heard there is some (slow) method that can be done now, but i haven't looked into what that does>also why is a non-native program allowed to issue syscalls directly? is there like no isolation at all for programs running under wine?wine is not a sandbox or virtual machine, programs are run directly on the host cpu like anything else
>>82643231>from what my partners have told me, is an e-mail sent to those requesting kits that, much like the developer documentation, prominently features Proton and makes no mention of why you want to care about native. This is probably a case of just not thinking about the wording and the communicationClickbait trash
Fuck me. I'll just keep that windows VM. Thank Allah I only play games pre-2012.>>82646598Agreed. Chrome books are getting popular: if a manufacturer were to make a linux distro and ship computer netbooks (or whatever you call small laptops) then Linux will be popular. Hell Chrome books uses Gentoo.
>>82645829god I wish that were me
>>82647593god I wish that were me
>>82646652>>82646642I switched to LTSC in 2018 when something in Windows 7 was breaking every month and I've been happy. I don't get this mindset that an OS needs to constantly be updated. The only new feature since Windows 95 I use is probably better networking support. Practically everything else is a third party program that is available on Linux, and switching to Debian or Ubuntu wouldn't be much trouble at all.It's only the concern, well what if I need something and it doesn't work on Linux? I just got a 1 TB nvme drive, if Windows 10 becomes a nuisance I would rather install Steam OS on a new partition than move to 11.
>>82645363Linus Torvalds himself has stated that none of the Linux distros have done a good job of making a nice easy to use desktop environment for the average person. He hasn't touched a windows machine in years, and that is because he is a software developer and really knows what he's doing. He admits that it requires a more tech savvy type of person.
>>82647441though if your distribution did not carry the specific old version of that library, you're fucked
>>82643279this, very importantwe could have had /dev/dsp multiplexing, instead we got alsa and pulseaudiowe could have had x11 upgrades, instead we have waylandemulation is unironically better than api churn
>>82645919Use app image you homo, its way less aids then all the other bullshit container formats, its the equivalent to portable exe applications.Or even better fuck dynamic linking, statically linking everything (or as much as we can) will work out better in the long run. linux kernel calls are stable and its usually some dynamic bullshit that rots.reading stuff like https://drewdevault.com/dynlib has opened my eyes to this issue, I use to think letting libs be dynamic linked was good practice.
>>82647813static linking is frowned upon by redditor types
>>82643333quake 4 for linux has to interact with non-kernel components with api churn
>>82643799> pasta must be cooked to orderthis aint the paris hilton
why do people believe valve does anything but care about their bottom line"they care about linux!!!" no they care about people buying on steam
>>82643845> gaben avoid license feesm$ would have given him windows for freehe did this so m$ wouldn't turn the xbox store into the default way to buy games
>unreal tournament 99 has a staticly linked libstdc++>mesa on modern systems uses an incompatible libstdc++>game just crashes because for some ungodly reason gcc decided that all symbols should always be publicthanks stallman-samaif there is anything microsoft did right in the past decades it's making symbols private by default and requiring you tu use __declspec( dllexport ) for anything public
>>82643231idk why anybody would listen if this thing takes off. Non native new games is pretty retarded if you're targeting the steam deck.>>82643279Do you not know what static linking is you tard?
>>82644143because they don't have ass hat making incompatible crap for the sole purpose of making incompatible crapthey did have "dot net" but they didn't get rid of win32
>>82643231>tfw EEE is real and valve is the one doing itAre you actually retarded? EEE only makes sense when the company behind it makes an alternative to what is being extinguished, e.g. Microsoft with Windows. Why would Valve EEE Linux? So they can pay more money to Microsoft for licenses? For fucks sake I hate when people spew buzzwords without having any idea what they mean.
>>82647901of course they only care about their bottom linebut in trying to become independent from microsoft they have invested a lot in linuxI'm not tied to steam in any way and still I've benefited from their work in radv/aco, kwin, wine etc
>>82646747Game devs could just stop sucking at programming and things would be better.
>>82647748> what if I need something and it doesn't work on Linux?Install Windows in a VM.
>>82643660Wasn't appimage supposed to be a bit if a answer to that? Why don't devs use that assuming they can get appimages to read files, configs outside its containment space.
>>82643231the answer is already in the title
>>82643279You're an idiot.Kernel API doesn't change, what changes is userspace API's (glibc, dbus, GTK/QT) however is mostly mitigated if you choose to use Valve's Steam Runtime (frozen copies of glibc and other libraries) or static link.
>>82648054Appimages are not a good way to distribute software. For one they are not sandboxed at all so you would be making a very bad security decision by running random ones you downloaded from the internet. They also can't include 100% of what the program needs to run so they are not truly universal. The actual reason Appimages were created was to give developers a quick snapshot of the latest build in a repo.
>>82647962>Do you not know what static linking is you tard?Something that has been railed against for almost 2 decades because Linux hobbyists admit it's used as a defense against proprietary programs.Even as open-source projects express interest in static linking using flatpak and such there is still an army of diehards complaining about duplicate libraries and "bloat"Static linking as simple as a concept as it should be requires a cultural change in the GNU/Linux community
>>82648149>static linking using flatpakYou have absolutely no idea what static linking is. Flatpak does no such thing.
Because beggars can’t be choosers. You get what you can or nothing at all. Linux is in no position to throw its weight around unless we’re talking about server applications.
>>82648042>Bu-But what if that doesn't work either!Exactly my point. Linux hasn't taken off because indifference, but every year Windows is getting worse and I need to jump through more hoops to make it tolerable. This TPM nonsense will likely be the last straw for a lot of people.
>>82648137> For one they are not sandboxed at all so you would be makingThey can be sandboxed by launching it through buddlewrap although there isn't any functionality for doing this automatically. This isn't any reason they can't be however.> They also can't include 100% of what the program needs to runNot true, everything can be included. Where did you even get that stupid idea from?
>>82648149> static linking using flatpakYou're an idiot. Flatpak provides the application with a runtime containing frozen copies of glibc and other libraries that distinct from what's found in "/lib" or "/usr/lib". The Flatpak packaged application can be statically linked although it's not necessary.
>>82648219>Not true, everything can be included. Where did you even get that stupid idea from?From the developers themselves.https://github.com/AppImage/AppImageKit/issues/225>Don't bundle everything, it is neither recommended not supported. I also have issues with it>They can be sandboxed by launching it through buddlewrapOptional security is no security at all.There is also the problem of keeping Appimages up to date. The current solutions for that are very lacking.
>>82648161>>82648241The result is the same, whether libraries are compiled in or containerized. Your getting away from shared libraries which was used as a weapon
>>82648295>The result is the same, whether libraries are compiled in or containerized.The distinction is VERY significant. When you have a container the libraries can still be shared with other containerized applications, flatpak does this to reduce needless duplication. Containers also let you update libraries by updating the runtime, something that would never be possible on a statically linked executable. But I suppose none of this matters much when you can't admit you don't know what you are talking about, right?
>>82643308Use musl. Glibc can't be statically compiled.
>>82647993>but in trying to become independent from microsoft they have invested a lot in linuxThe same way Google has.In that it doesn't fucking matter a single bit.
This is great. Game Devs are awful at getting Thier games running natively on Linux. Proton works much better.
>>82648368Ah yes. I'm sure someone would have just made an independent vulkan driver for amd hardware with a custom shader compiler without some company actually backing it.
>>82648368Google's decision to build Chrome OS on a Linux base is directly responsible for -a lot- of driver support. In particular for WiFi cards and track pads. I'm sure their contributions to the kernel have also been appreciated by the maintainers.
>>82643679the problem is software being proprietary.
>>82643680Use 32 bits windows 10.
>>82643801<uses phone to emulate 3dsNothing personal.
>>82643834Chad. Fuck jews.
>>82648334More like that distinction doesn't matter in the endYour looking to poke holes in something I'm not even trying to make a point about because your either rejecting the cultural premise around dynamic/shared libraries or you can't comprehend one exists.If you did understand that then you would acknowledge that both flatpaks and static linking change how GNU/Linux software has been done since damn near forever, arguing about what either does misses the point
>>82648665Ok, anon. When you go to sleep tonight you can tell yourself you won the 4chan argument in spite of having no idea of what you were talking about. I'll give you that one as a freebie, ok?
>>82643279>Linux has bitrotWhat the fuck is this shit?
>>82648698This is rich coming from a guy who saw one terminology flub and decided to laser focus on that, of which I have my own guesses as to the reason for that.If it wasn't about winning your own arguments you wouldn't have went on offense.
>>82648763>hasn't heard of rotational velociodensity
>>82643231Hey let 'em perfect proton. Less work for vidya devs, and makes it so literally any PC game will be playable on linux, not just arbitrary ones chosen by the devs who feel like they want to make a linux port
So games are going to target wine? Why is this supposed to be bad considering I can just install wine
>>82643231Honestly, Valve has done a great job with Proton. I cant complain
>>82645938>stop using ac driversi swear does gaben play hvhor does he just wanna turn every fps into csgolike cheatridden shit
>>82644824Works on my machine.
>>82643279Yep. Linux systems "just work" for the majority of end users because they use prepackaged software where packages are curated and often patched to be compatible with one another. That's what a distro is. All bets are off when you start to install a lot of "third-party" software. Eventually, you will run into issues with dependencies and keeping your system working across updates, but this is mitigated thanks to access to source code so that advanced users who need a lot of "third-party" software can customize them for compatibility.This is obviously not possible for Steam OS, as the "third-party" software in question is all proprietary. Valve cannot take on the role of the distro maintainer as they have no means by which to customize the software they are distributing. It's much easier to simply virtualize the system, and Proton is an existing tool that does just that.
>>82647379cope and seethe
>>82643660>Windows basically offers binary compatibility almost forever. You can run a 20-year-old binary produced by Delphi 3.x or some shit like that and it will just work.
Isn't Microsoft just going to make changes that Proton will have to try to catch up to?
>>82649794Make changes how? Is it going to make half the shit not work right so proton will have to catch up from 35% working to 50%?
>>82643961I've played it on windows and it's still buggy as fuck
>>82647761Linux like all modern OS can do dynamic linking, just bundle your libs in the version you need and it works. It not considered a good usage, but who care about a few 10mb of ram nowadays
>>82643961that means 80% crashes are from winblows and fagos
>>82647379The problem is that those games detect Linux as a cheat in of itself.
>>82649794>Microsoft killing compatibility.Not even a chance.
>>82643231>Linux>GamesCan't be grateful for shit these days
>>82643777Based trips of truth
>>82650167Which you would expect since they are the very vast majority of the userbase But 0.1% of people accounting for 20% of bug reports is very disproportional0.1% of users should only account for 0.1% of reports
>>82650525So have you considered just not cheating though
>>82643961wasn't planetary annihilation a barely functional mess on launch?also looks like ol benny was talking out of his ass
>>82651482>0.1% of people accounting for 20% of bug reports is very disproportionalThat's because of anti-Linux discrimination. We need to force game developers to write worse windows code so that the bug report numbers are proportional.
>>82647812>asla and pulseaudiojust take the pipewire pill
>>82643231SuperTuxKart does not have this problem.
>>82651493But... Linux isn't a cheat...
>>82651901https://github.com/nullworks/cathookNope. Vast majority of Linux "gamers" are bots and cheaters. Simple as that.
>>82643231Well that's fucking awful
>>82651985Is this why winfags still cope with "muh gaymes"?
>>82651985>linux users can now easily play games on linux thru steam>windows users get pwnd by surperior linux users>0.1% of linux users use cheats, same with windows>"y-you're all cheaters!"wangblows stays losing.
>>82643231Linux ports generally suck compared to running the Windows version though wine/proton. It would be nice to have native ports in a perfect world where devs are competent and used cross platform solutions, but this is not a perfect world.
>>82643801>Reading>Listening to music>using your phoneNon of these are acceptable in public, people actually despise this shit.The difference is that with ga(y)ming you are a manchild while the other ones you are ranging form an anti-social faggot to a low IQ moron (using your phone everywhere in public that isn't a bus) at least you are seen as a grown up.
>>82651985irrelevant pasted garbage for an irrelevant game proves linux users cheat at vidya
>>82643883>maldingYou mean molding, right?
>>82643643it's the opposite of planned obsolence, unix doesn't give a shit about broken ABIs because it is assumed source code is available at any time to be recompiled, meanwhile microsoft is stuck maintaining dll files originating from win95
>>82652262"Malding" is twitch streamer speak, combination of mad + balding, essentially the same as "seething"
>>82652729kek, only a roastie can come up with that one
>>82643660there's no "cultural difference". linux software in user ecosystem is poorly written incompatible trash churned out by amateur coders at the time they had the enthusiasm to do it. when that enthusiasm vanes the software is left to bitrot
>>82648910it locks freetards into using valve's store, since itch.io for example offers native linux binaries but not protonyou can install proton independently, but it's not so easy to configure so only stallmanesque neckbeards will bother
>>82653330For the most part Proton is just wine + dxvk and Valve funds Codeweavers to work on improvements that are upstreamed to wine https://www.codeweavers.com/blog/aeikum/2019/3/27/how-proton-helped-improve-wine-42https://www.codeweavers.com/blog/aeikum/2019/8/20/a-year-since-protons-launch
>>82645870Why would choosing Vulkan be a bother? Unless ? MS is pretty much bribing it makes more sense anyway.
>>82643273>glorified bing bing wahoo happy meal toyslmao
>>82646294Even bullseye is 5.10. The good stuff is in 5.11
>>82653411with DX12 you can ship to windows, xbox and ps5vulkan ships to windows, linux, (I think poorly) mac and switchDX is just more appealing
>>82653784what? no. PS5 doesn't use DX, it has its own API called GNM
>>82647761not really, it's just less convenient, since then you need to find that library in either another repo, or build it yourselfprograms can ship with the libraries they need as well, in fact, the ut04 demo did come with most of what it needed, i guess they really didn't expect libstdc++5 or oss support to be going anywhere anytime soonmost proprietary programs already do ship with their deps because there's less expectation of continued maintenance, this is no different to windows programs