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what is the best martial arts to start with? preferably for someone whos experienced with strenght training but has weak flexibility
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>>66759954
>what is the best martial arts to start with?
Doesn't really matter
>preferably for someone whos experienced with strenght training
Wrestling or Judo
>but has weak flexibility
Boxing
>>
>>66759954
boxing would be okay
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>>66759954
are you going to fight or defend yourself in a streetfight?

if yes pick the coolest looking/sounding one
if no choose one that builds strength
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>>66759954
Boxing/muay thai + bjj/judo/wrestling
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>>66760257
Start with two to three? That seems inefficient
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>>66760277
Choose one striking and one grappling.
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>>66759954
This depends entirely on your goals. Are you looking to compete? Is it about self defence? Or just looking for a fun type of cardio? Are you into combat sports and want to give it a try?
The best martial art for you depends on what you want to get out of it.
>>
>>66759954
Boxing.
>>66760011
>>66760022
>>66760257
>>66760277
>>66760345
>>66760394
Shut the fuck up.

Take up boxing. Everything else is meme shit.
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>>66760409
*double legs you*
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>>66760409
t. gypsy with 3 street fights experience
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>>66760419
*pokes ur eye*
*bites you*
*grabs ur cock*
*stabs you*
in a street fight there are no rules faggot. You try to throw a leg I will smash you to the ground, unless there is some faggot who will stomp me behind while I'm on the ground with you. Don't train martial arts because of street fights that's retarded. And comparing which one is better because of it applying better in street fights is even more retarded. A street fight has no rules. And can lead to stabbings.
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>>66760500
*shoots you*
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>>66760500
All this cope lol
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>>66760549
1v1 with no one around and wrestling always wins. No amount of fruity kicks will save you from being smashed to the ground
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>>66760566
*chokes you to death*
>>
>>66760588
*grabs ur buldge*
"OwO What's this?"
>>
>>66760588
*uses knife to spread butter*
>>
I want to start either judo or wrestling, which one gets more of an advantage from being big and strong? I’m in the UK so the wrestlers won’t all be super experienced and jacked.
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>>66760605
*toasts bread*
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>>66760394
fun cardio+looks interesting and i like pain
>>66760611
i think wrestling but i have no practical knowledge so
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>>66760701
I'd suggest kickboxing or Muay Thai for you depending on which has the better local scene. Great cardio, lots of fun and you'll get a lot of bruises.
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>>66760566
It's funny that this is all in response to *double legs you*
A double leg is a wrestling takedown, not a kick.
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>>66759954
Glass jaw
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>>66759954
Join a gym that does sparring, that a good way to filter the fag gyms
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>>66760846
Getting brain damage for nothing? The only reason I would spar for real with people is if I was getting payed.
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>>66760509
uwu
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>>66759954
Listen here fucko. There are a lot of people in this thread recommending boxing and they're fucking retarded larpers who don't do boxing. Boxing is extremely effective as a martial art but you'll wind up with brain damage. Over 90% of people who box get concussions and it would be 100% but some people quit before then. There is a really non-trivial chance that you fuck your life up by getting a few concussions.

Do Brazilian Jiujitsu or Judo because you can do it long term. If you're not going to do martial arts long term just don't bother. Get a decent 5k time and carry a weapon.
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>>66759954
>martial arts

Worthless and designed to ruin your body. If your flexibility is shit just do calisthenics
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>>66760697
*fries bacon*
>>66760949
this
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>>66760500
keyboard warrior lol
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>>66759954
Just go and have fun, retard. Are you actually going to get in any fights? Martial arts is just a hobby.
>>
boxing will probably be good for you since it doesn’t require a lot of flexibility, but most boxing gyms spar very hard, whereas something like a real muay thai gym probably won’t spar as hard because most actual thais just do some light technical sparring. risk of concussions is always there.

judo would probably be a good fit, as it doesn’t require a ton of flexibility, it’s fairly applicable in most scenarios depending on your goals, and minimizes head impacts. that said, grappling gave me chronic joint pains constantly, and once i switched to a striking gym, those problems went away
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>>66759954
only correct answer is boxing.
second you can try mma, but work on flexibility for mid-kicks.

that's it
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>>66759954
>>66760409
>>66760257
This, take up boxing
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Fuck all martial arts. The only way to learn how to fight is no rules and no warning. Go rough up some homeless guys to start with. They have shit reaction time and are easy to get the jump on. Especially if you hold out some change. Next you are going to move up to fatties. 300+ plus. Better reaction time than a drugged up malnourished homeless man, but slow enough to help you get used to dodging and countering. Now you are ready to hit the bar. Drunks have bad reaction time, but are very strong and aggressive. These fights are how you get used to risking your life and be calm under pressure. Go to a construction yard or some other place where people do hard physical labor. Catch one of them just after work. They should be pretty gassed, but will be very fit and strong. After a few of those it is time to go to the big leagues. Catch people walking alone at night. They will be high alert and there is no telling who you'll run into. You will have to learn the art of surprise. Once you get good at taking out people in the streets it is time to find a martial arts school. Stalk their fighters and take them out. This will be the longest step. Travel across the world stalking and jumping random fighters from random gyms. Once they are no longer a challenge the next step up is police. This gets a lot harder as they have guns and specialized awareness training. Keep that up until it is easy. Now it is time for the military. Soldier just off duty. Preferably ones with PTSD for the extra challenge. Then you will move up to agents in intelligence agencies. Once you get good at pounding those guys, It is time to move up to active battlefields.
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>>66762678
Based. No better way to learn to fight than getting into actual fights. Why do you think dads instinctively throw their children in the water when they don't know how to swim?
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>>66760949
>Boxing is extremely effective as a martial art but you'll wind up with brain damage
source: my ass
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>>66762891
>Boxing is extremely effective as a martial art but you'll wind up with brain damage if you do hard sparing often
Nobody is forcing you to spar. You can spar once a month or do light sparing and you won't get any brain damage
>>
>striking
>cte
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>>66760611
Probably wrestling. Sport Judo removed leg grabs so you're limited in takedowns now. Wrestling breeds mental and physical toughness can't say about Judo but I know BJJ is more skill than strength
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>>66760500
People like this forget that someone with combat sports experience also don't need to adhere to the rules
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>>66760500
*gouges and bites you more effectively because i train ground game*
*murders you*
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>>66759954
>Striking
boxing/ muay thai
>Grappling
Wrestling/Judo for takedown offense and defense
BJJ for ground fighting
Grappling also has the benefit of you being able to go 100% without getting brain damage
>>
>>66760611
try both and see which one is at a higher level. if you want to start any martial arts, i think its best to pick one which had the best instructors, and that is associated with how much experience your country has with that MA. with the UK id wager that the judo is at a much higher level than the wrestling there. in fact, pretty much most countries except for the US has a higher level of judo than wrestling.
>>
>>66760895
>>66762891
>>66762935
theres light sparring for strikers, which is essential to do if you ever want to get good at any level. of course this isnt as effective as hard sparring in giving you experience but its much safer.
but its just a fact that grappling arts can spar way harder and way more consistently than striking sports, with bjj being at the top of that since literally half the class will be just sparring due to how safe groundwork is. so you get much better much faster and much safer with grappling compared to striking.
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>>66761122
*squeeze lemon juice and serves lunch*
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>>66759954
Myau Thai, you just need rigidity, they will drill your flexibility in pretty easily.
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>>66765229
>>66760611
I did both high school wrestling and recreational college club judo (because i didnt want to join varsity wrestling), and wrestling conditioning that you get in highschool is a lot more intense than the average recreational judo club. Id probably expect the same for a judo circuit that competes though. Honestly, with the leg grab ban (which is pure olympic fuckery removing bases kata guruma), your best bet is to probably find a judo/wrestling gym that has instructors that crosstrains with sambo/bjj or a gym that teaches and spars with older judo rules. nothing against wrestling but pure folkstyle wrestling doesnt teach joint locks and chokes while judo does; id say that both is about equally good at taking people to the ground, except judo knows how to finish on the ground.
>>
Boxing gives you great conditioning. You can branch off into a lot of stuff after learning the basics for like 1 year. MMA, MThai, Kickboxing etc. Whatever you enjoy the most. I tried these and had the most fun with boxing so I stuck with it and now compete in amateurs.
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>>66760949
Boxing for brain damage, BJJ for joint damage.
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>>66759954
start with boxing especially if you have poor flexibility after that try judo or karate, after that start with grappling/wrestling
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>>66759954
Boxing is the most fun cause you can do a lot of headmovement and counters
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>>66760022
If you are going to defend yourself learn to eye poke and kick balls
>>
streamubu no work :(
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>>66766874
wrong thread lol, meant for the creator clash thread. im full of bbq, went to my grandma's house :)
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>>66760477
Gyppos don't even fight properly, they just piss on you and throw bottle shards at you
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>>66759954
The one that has the closest gym
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>>66760409
What about Muay thai? Boxing is sick no doubt but I feel like muay thai has some draws above boxing. If you have poor flexibility you can still just focus on boxing, but you'll still have the option to low kick.

Plus it's a good sport to give you a reason to get more flexible too.
>>
Karate

>cool ass uniform
>chicks dig it
>>
The more martial arts I do, the dumber boxing seems.

In a "real fight" you could do a number of things to stay out of boxing range:
- Step back beyond the reach of their arms
- Grab their wrists, and arms
- Step closer and clinch

All of those seem desirable in a fight, in the sense that you are able to move from boxing range into a safer domain of fighting.

But no, boxing rules insist you stay in the pocket and bludgeon each others brains out. Its designed to kill brain cells.
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>>66766252
Its not a dichotomy between learning sport martial arts and "poke eye and kick balls".

If you want to poke people in the eye you need to learn how to punch. If you want to kick people in the balls you need to learn how to kick. "Poke eye and kick balls" is like a slight modification of mainstream martial arts and not a completely separate course of work.
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>>66760022
Honestly, even if people start because they're worried about getting beaten up at a bar, everyone that stays does so for love the sport and competition.
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>>66767777
>clinch against a boxer
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>>66760277
Pick a striking or grappling sport that you like, spend 6-12 months on the one you didn't choose (so if you like BJJ, maybe spend 6 months boxing), and then go back to the other for the rest of your life.

Congratulations, you are now a well-rounded recreational martial artist.
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>>66760500
Usually in da streets, not only does the guy that initiates the first successful takedown not get stabbed or beaten by bystanders, he then goes on to win the fight.
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>>66767980
Go watch Art Jimmerson vs Royce Gracie. The level of grappling skill you need to take down a pro boxer is much lower than the level of boxing you need to not get taken down by a sloppy BJJ double-leg shot.
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>>66760949
Citation?
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>>66760949
>Judo because you can do it long term
Retard detected
>>
Bro look up sambo. If it's in your area do it.

Do boxing and a grappling art with it , but NOT bjj. It's fun to do but there are better grappling arts to do if your goal is self defense. Even judo is better, cause it's more stand up. Pulling gaurd on the street would be dumb
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>>66759954
I honestly wouldn't recommend boxing. You do not get the same kind of learning experience as with other martial arts like Muay Thai. In boxing gyms you generally just go in, maybe the coach will work with you maybe not, maybe you'll just be hitting the bag on your own. In a MT gym at least (in my experience in the UK) classes are more structures and regimented.
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>>66765630
Is a boxing gym good if they have you (light/technical) sparring on the first day in a mixed class even if you don’t know what you’re doing? Most people were ok but a few seemed to want to brawl
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>>66768163
That may be true, but learning to escape from bottom isn't something you'll learn a whole lot of outside BJJ, and "what do you do if a bigger person is on top of you?" is a question that BJJ has answers for, when most other grappling sports say "go belly down and wait to be stood up"
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>>66768437
like most things in the UK, it's who you know. got to know a good coach that's willing to work with you
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>>66760949
>Judo because you can do it long term
HAhahahahaha

You can do BJJ longer term than most martial arts.

I'd say boxing is actually the thing you can do longest term, just don't fucking spar, or spar light.
>>
>all these blowjobjob faggots thinking judo is some body snatching crippler sport
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>>66768163
Why do people like this even post? Obviously you aren't good at any martial art so maybe you should stfu.
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>>66768580
yes
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>>66760409
boxing is literally the biggest meme trend rn
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>>66767980
Whats a boxer good at when it comes to clinching? Unclinching? Thats it?

Any grappler in a clinch would completely dominate the boxer. In other striking arts, like MT, you have a full range of techniques like elbows, knees, and sweeps.

Yeah, I definitely recommend clinching with a boxer. They are powerless there. All they can do is hug until they get their break to un-hug, which any other kind of martial artist will simply not grant.
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>>66768580
It's true tho. Talk to any judoka over 40 on the matts about their nagging injuries (and there won't be many of those 40+ year olds on the mats for exactly that reason)
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>>66768163
>all BJJ is, is pulling guard
Why even post if this is your level of understanding.

Dont you know that BJJ people _prefer_ to be on top? Its not just "Pull guard", like as soon as a fight initiates you should just plop down on your butt. Dont you know that BJJ often practice takedowns themselves? We do takedown drills all the time in my BJJ class.
>>
there's a gym I'm thinking of joining that does BJJ and Judo and also basic self defence classes, sounds pretty promising.
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>>66759954
Wrestling is the best base, but if not probably boxing because boxing is everywhere.
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>>66768831
>boxers would follow the rules of boxing while in a street fight
What a retarded thought.
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>>66769619
Boxers dont practice it since its not in their rule set, and boxers arent just going to become instantly good at something they dont practice.
>>
man I want to start BJJ again but my eyes are fucked and I need contacts. but holy fucking trying to get contacts is such a fucking hassle because my eyes are a special case.
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>>66768608
Sorry I hurt ur feelings butt scooter

>>66768871
It does teach takedowns yes, but not as much as it should. An mma gym will have takedown drills and techniques, but the majority or rolls/rounds are on the ground for the most part. Its not adequate enough for me, yes bjj has its place for sure but learning better standup, take down defense and offense, is more important for self defense imo
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>>66759954
It depends do you want to strike or grapple?
striking
boxing and muay thai are the most available and effective options
grappling
BJJ is the most common thing out there, and it gets the job done
it's fun, and you can decide whether you want to do it as a hobby or as a fighter
>>
>>66769904
>nearest muay thai place is an hour and twenty by car
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>>66769912
I imagine it depends on where you live; here in California, we have several places in Orange County alone, but I suppose it's more confined to large urban centers in other states. I still fucking hate this state, so finding a new gym is going to be a challenge when I leave forever.
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>>66759954
Karate. It will build flexibility. It doesn't really matter if you are flexible to start out with. Also if you stick with it you get to learn forbidden techniques. Just try to find someone with a traditional background. Preferably at least a 3 dan black belt, but even a brown belt can teach you the fundamentals. If you want to enter a fighting sport muay thai or boxing. If you want to be able to defend yourself or win a street fight karate.
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>>66769963
Why karate in a street fight over boxing/MT?
How long until you learn the forbidden techniques? The traditional stuff in Okinawa looks pretty based where I saw something like they have to survive getting beaten by several masters at once. I’d also heard it’s meant to be karate + jujitsu going hand in hand. The problem is it also looks like something you’re meat to learn from age 12 and might take several years to become proficient whereas boxing you focus so narrow you can get proficient within a year and then maintain, or be able to train grappling at the same time.
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It's 2022, why the fuck are you fags comparing Martial arts when literally all of them are a mismatch of each other (except maybe boxing because you can't kick or takedown) and it's rather the quality of teacher/school than the Martial arts.
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>>66770028
When you are a 3 dan or when you have trained with the same master for 15 years is usually when you get tested to see if you are ready for forbidden techniques. Karate is a bit better for street fighting over boxing because karate does drill takedowns. It is all about your level of dedication to get proficient at any martial art. I have known boxers who would be terrible fighters who have trained for 3 years. I have also seen boxers who would be great fighters who have only trained 6 months. Depending on the school karate is not devoid of grappling. Also even a great fighter can be a complete push over if you take an eye. Karate can teach you how to take someones eye. Someone can have great cardio until they can't breath. Karate can teach you how to crush someones throat in a single blow. Granted these are high level traditional techniques that require a lot more from a person to be able to accomplish. Such as breaking your fingers several times until they are sturdy enough to break a board. If you want to defend yourself, there is few places outside of karate that do a better job.
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>>66767980
>clinch against boxer
>thai boxer knees, elbows, and throws to ground
>judoka immediately fucking kills them the second they get into the clinch
>>
>>66770183
>2022
>people STILL believe muh ancient chink secret technique faggotry
>>
>>66770242
It isn't like the kill you in one strike bs. There is real techniques you can practice that do work. Strengthen your fingers and learn the different fist. They work with dedication. You will have a hard time finding someone who has gone through with the grueling conditioning, but if you actually do them they work.
>>
>>66770183
>15 years
So like I said if I’d trained in it since age 12... learning as an adult that seems excessive. I’m all for commitment and dedication, does sound cool don’t get me wrong but I’d rather become decent more quickly with a striking plus a grappling.
Is there somewhere else I can learn to hit throats and eyes? Outside of bribing people in third world countries
>>
Why do you guys take Martial arts so seriously?
>>
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>>66770336
Well there is other conditions that they would let you learn them sooner. Like if you were good enough to be the successor of their school. Also a 3 dan black belt can be learned sooner. It varies. Usually it is around 15 years for normal students, but it isn't a written rule. The info really isn't very secretive anymore. Train your fingers. First find a solid surface and press your fingers against it as hard as you can without your fingers buckling. Finger tip pushups. Holding wide heavy objects. To remove an eye aim for the part of they eye close to the nose. Go in hard and fast. The ideal zone is between the iris and the edge of the eye if someone is looking straight ahead. They trick is to come straight in with a lot of force and swing your arm towards their ear as you come out. If you have strong enough fingers their eye will either come out or be ripped apart. To crush a throat you need to be able to break 3 1 inch boards with no spacers. Also the fist is important. People usually use the ippon-ken. Pic rel. To start with pressing your knuckle up against a hard surface just to the point of it not bending is where you start. Then move up to breaking boards and then to the heavy bag.
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>>66768580
itd definitely hard on the body similar to wrestling. if you do hard randori every practice you will get injured eventually (source: me)
its definitely not as bad as striking sports but then again strikers dont spar hard every practice or theyll get brain damage.
i did bjj for a month and went hard but did not get close to getting injured.
>>
>>66769619
thats not the point. the point is that other popular MA are simply way better in the clinch. Any grappler sport will at least take you to the ground where you get fucked, Judo and sambo in particular will plant your face and murder you. muay thai will knee and elbow you.
>>
>>66759954
Krav Maga

rest is shit and unhealthy af
>>
>>66770776
>heeb commando LARP
Post nose
>>
>>66770489
How many eyes have you removed kek that’s quite specific. The other issue I guess is quality, it seems hard to find a kyokushin school let alone good teacher. Thanks though.
Makes me kinda sad that pure and useful Japanese martial like this got steamrolled so hard by dyels with muskets.
>>
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>>66770776
>Krav Maga
>>
>>66770071
Honestly, even boxing. I was talking the other day with one of the boxing coaches at my gym because I saw him getting one of the fighters to frame off the jab like a Thai long guard, and he said that you can find something to transfer in most martial arts since there's only so many ways you can hit someone. Lomachenko and Superbon both use that style of long guard framing.
>>
>>66770363
Why do people take any hobby seriously?
>>
>>66759954
How to box:
>>>/t/1136810
>>
>>66770489
The only way you're going to remove eyes is by how hard this post is making them roll. A chin is a larger target than an eye and if you're up against someone who knows how to fight it's hard to consistently land strikes there, let alone the eye. And if they don't know how to fight, then you can win without trying to maim them so what's the point?
>>
>>66759954
>boxing
>destroys your front leg with kicks
>manage to clinch you and hold both of your wrists and knee your ribs until it turns powder

muay thai (striking) and judo (throws, locks).. those two are all you need
both have a long history and proven techniques used in fighting
you can't even do boxing without gloves because your knuckles are prone to get injured without them
imagine trying to wear your boxing gloves first before you face a streetfight
>>
>>66773089
>you can't even do boxing without gloves because your knuckles are prone to get injured without them
Dumbass
>>
>>66773089
Gloves are there to prevent cuts for the most part m8. Watch literally any BKB match and have a look at the amount of blood
>>
>>66760500
*grabs ur cock*
i would like that thank u very much
>>
>>66760566
>1v1 with no one around

Most streetfights arent 1v1 tho.

Why wouldn't someone bring his friends to beat you up?
>>
>>66773272
There is a statically irrelevant chance of ever getting in a street fight if you have any semblance of situational awareness and don't live in a third world area
>>
>>66765391
It's true, but grappling is just a 1v1 thing mostly. Someone good at boxing has a chance to take on multiple people much better.
>>
get a psycho girlfriend, u will be fighting for your life everyday. good training
>>
>>66773289
Sure, but you can be prepared for it, or not.
>>
>>66772826
>long guard framing
Can you explain what this is? Google failed me
>>
>>66773361
Sure. I do muay thai. I'd like to do an amateur fight at some point but i mostly do it for fun and cardio.

Basic boxing defense (not even slips and rolls), a decent legkick, a sprawl and a jab cross would make you over qualified for any muh 2dedly streets scenario in which you're likely to be capable of defending yourself regardless. If you get jumped by 5 negros or a dude pulls a knife you're fucked regardless of training
>>
>>66773370
Watch some thomas hearns, tyson fury or samart payakaroon fights. Basically you keep your lead hand partially or full extended and use it to block the opponent's vision or manipulate their head position
>>
>>66773411
Aah that's what it means, thanks! I'm a fan of thomas hearns and have been watching his vids.
>>
>>66773438
He did it a lot off his jab to get the opponent to move into his right. He'd jab then leave it fully extended.
>>
>>66762734
Le streetfighter still gets wooped by anyone with 6+ months of experience
>>
I'm 30 and want to get into martial arts for the three following reasons
>If I have kids I want to inspire them to take up martial arts
>I want to have a social arena that can stay with me as I grow old, so that even if I'm lonely I still have the club two or three times a week
>I want to train my assertiveness
I could go to Muay Thai and BJJ but I'm thinking that judo and kyokushin suit my goals better. What are your thoughts on combining them?
>>
>>66768831
He would fuck you up with his footwork and/or turn your liver to patty
>>
Idk why i find bjj so cringe. Watching old UFC vids where Sakuraba murks the Gracie family is so gratifying. Tfw can’t find any catch wrestling training spots near me to mog bjjfags.
>>
>>66773576
>footwork
>in a clinch
>that isn’t for a sweep etc
>context
>>
unironicly sumo is good. just try it
baki saied "it has no tricks"
after you get the basics just push yourself; you can get used to stricks of certin srength, sumo somewhat relies on that
surce- my ass
honestly baki so based
>>
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>>66769945
I live in the east of england
>>
>>66772832
Because these threads have the biggest larpers I've ever seen.
>>
>>66773768
Boxers don't care about your gay clinch as they will fuck your organs up before you can do anything
>>
>>66773564
you can do two things at once; just know that you'll make slower progress than if you just did one striking/grappling art at a time
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>>66773370
Sorry Anon, I was using terminology from different martial arts to describe what I meant which is why Google didn't help. Long guard is something you see in Muay Thai where you keep your guard more extended than the traditional tight boxing guard and framing is when you maintain contact with your opponent to control distance or limit their movement. So putting the two together gives you what this >>66773411 Anon is talking about.
>>
>>66773917
That's because people get all weird when the topic involves their ability to fight. You don't get people coming into bouldering threads going "Nice walls fag, I climb for the streets. My secret 2grippy4u climbing style would allow me to climb rings around all you pussies" but martial arts threads just seem to bring that out in people.
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>>66770776
>Krav Maga
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>>66776558
>but martial arts threads just seem to bring that out in people.
The ability to fight is intrinsic to one's perceived masculinity.
It's like one's sexual experience, height or cock length. Anything to get a step up on the competition.
>>
>>66777020
Yeah, that's my take on it too. It's why fighting is one of very few activities that most men assume they'd be good at even if they've never tried or practiced.
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>>66759954
I'll work fewer hours after the summer, so I'm considering taking up bogi grappling alongside my lifting and running. Is 2x a week enough if I just want to learn some cool things and have fun?
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>>66777020
It’s even worse because this same behavior causes people when they are losing fights to abandon any “honor” to win. Hence why all the larping about fair honorable 1v1 combat outside of a sports arena is stupid. You will just get stabbed/shot/jumped/etc by some low value street trash who has nothing to lose in life.
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>>66760949
That's why most of my friends I boxed with during HS quit. After you a few really hard blows to the head, concussions come easier and easier. And the effects are weird as fuck. Headaches, neck pain from whiplash, etc.

Even if you're really safe, a sparring match can get randomly turned up. You really think you're gonna fight for a couple hundred hours and not get hit hard at least a few times? Lol. It's a part of the game
>>
>>66762678

Post split larper
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>>66759954
Boxing sounds like a good fit for you.
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Why do people still "pick" a martial art?

Just do MMA retards
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>>66777130
>Hence why all the larping about fair honorable 1v1 combat outside of a sports arena is stupid
Spoken like someone with no experience with fights. There are rules to streetfights, even if they are reflective of combat sports - because of the UFC wrestling and submissions are no longer seen as dirty and an invitation for the posse to stomp the fouler. Exceptions will tend to be race-based.
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>>66777419
>There are rules to streetfights
Based retard
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>>66777276
Every good mma fighter has a specialized martial art they practice. Be it boxing, kick boxing, karate, BJJ, or wrestling. I have not seen a single good MMA fighter say they just did MMA. MMA is far to broad to train. Specializing is necessary for fighting.
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>>66777419
You know what’s also an “invitation for the posse to stomp the fouler”? When their friend is losing retard.

If you value your own life you will avoid street conflicts completely and use the legal system to win. You think someone like Jeff Bezos is chimping out trying to fight everyone who talks shit about him? Or is is low life street trash who have no value to their own life and are willing to die because someone called them a slur. Not worth ever entering a conflict with someone who’s life is much less valuable than your own.
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>>66777185
Hot damn. I am not on your level. I yield.
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>>66777538
That's for historical reasons. The MMA fighters of the future will just be pure mixed martial artists
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>>66777570
Spoken like a krabby Magoo larper. There are rules to street fights, so biting, low blows, or gouging that the audience sees gives the audience or the other guy bonafides to ground and pound you into the ICU.

Usually what happens is when someone loses fair, their friends pull them apart. Assuming the same race of course. Sore losers ganging up on the winner usually happens in fights with a race element, like a black guy losing to a white guy. And boxing's popularity with blacks makes them think grappling is dirty in their street fighting rules.
>>
>>66777690
I highly doubt it. Fighting is just far too complex. If one style dominates for awhile another will rise and overshadow it. The diversity of martial arts will always be there to facilitate the growth of new styles. Also many other martial arts are still far more popular than MMA. Karate, Muay Thai, Judo, and Boxing to name a few. Some people want to do a fight sport where you don't get punched or you don't get choked out.
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>>66777762
Bad bait

Lurk moar
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>>66777871
Ok retard
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>>66777773
>Some people want to do a fight sport where you don't get punched or you don't get choked out.
Arm wrestling?
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>>66778448
Not combined one, or the other. Some people can't kick and join a sport where they don't get kicked in the face.
>>
best martial art for a weak guy with long arms?
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>>66759954
Boxing or Wrestling. The rest is either meme shit (ex. karate), isn't very effective by itself (ex. BJJ), or is hard to find (ex. sambo, legit muay thai).

Also, ignore the soccer-mom faggots telling you it's too dangerous. Cauliflower ear? Get it drained within a couple days of it swelling. CTE? Kek, defeatists on this board will come up with any excuse not to work hard. Unless you're planning on making a career out of boxing, you won't be in any danger of getting CTE. And don't listen to the anons saying "don't bother learning self defense bro, just fight dirty!". They're even dumber than the Krav Maga cultists. The willingness to gouge someones eye isn't going to save them from getting knocked flat on their ass.
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>>66778530
boxing
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>>66778627
BJJ is certainly not meme shit. It's probably the most effective way to subdue someone without risk of critically injuring them, which is arguably the most important tool you could have for real life confrontations.
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>>66773564
If you use it as a social club, find one that has people you like. Different sports attract different people.
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Why pick a single martial art or some combo requiring 2 gyms?
>>66760257
Just go to an MMA gym, you'll learn striking, wrestling, and jiu jitsu there and more importantly how to use all 3 together.
>>
Boxing is the best for learning basics quick but hard to master
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>>66777762
They're not rules, even if there are degrees of escalation. Because it's all amorpheus.
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>>66778742
>BJJ is certainly not meme shit
I never said BJJ is meme shit, I said it isn't very effective by itself. Sportification killed BJJ, as the self defense is barely ever taught and the striking has been completely removed. Hell, most schools nowadays barely even teach takedowns. Unless you go to a few old school schools (Ze Radiola of ZR team, Gracie Academy in Torrance, Renzo's school in NY), you will most likely not be taught the strikes of BJJ (stomp and elbow) and the self defense techniques. You will be taught the sport. BJJ is probably the best martial art out there at ground fighting, but it lacks everywhere else. That isn't to say that BJJ isn't worth learning, but I wouldn't learn it by itself.
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>>66778640
Seriously though with proper technique you can punch really hard with weak arms.
>>
Anyone know any good dojos in the GTA? Looking more for grappling.
>>
Boxing is in a league of its own above all else because of reliability. There is zero bullshit in boxing. It's a simple art: four punches (jab, cross, hook, upper), three basic stances (classic, peek-a-boo, philly shell) and mobility skills. Everything in boxing has been distilled over a century into a concentrated sport and martial art that focuses exclusively on you winning a fight. It emphasizes physical fitness, drills, and repetition of true-and-tested techniques and forces you to practice them against someone who wants to knock you out. Walk into any boxing gym in the world, any real boxing gym, and you will find a real fighting school. People drilling on their own to fight, people wanting to schedule fights, people sparring and preparing to fight.

At the end of the day, the only SUREFIRE way to become a good fighter in 3 years is to box. And that's why it is top tier. It's not the most complete or complex martial art, but it is the most reliably taught and practised so as to make you extremely capable of defending yourself, even against more than one person. For this reason boxing stands alone.

>inb4 muh muay thai
Muay Thai may be more complete than boxing, and the use of elbows and knees are devastating. But guess what, unless you're in southeast Asia, odds are you're in a fucking McDojo. I can't recommend it more simply because outside of Thailand they train like pussies. Boxers train hard everywhere.
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>>66779081
Forgot to tack on that Muay Thai takes much longer than Boxing to become good at.

This is to say that when picking a martial arts, it boils down to
>full contact sparring
>how hard its practitioners train
>how long it takes to become competent
>availability
>differences in training between different gyms
Wrestling is good, I like wrestling and I used to wrestle in middle and high school, but the problem is that if you're out of college, it's hard to find. Also, if you think you might have to fight more than one person, the last thing you should do it take it to the ground.
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>>66779081
>>66779169
Boxing is only good against other boxers and people who don't know how to fight.
Against any other martial art it's really weak. There is a reason why Muay Thai and BJJ are the current favorites.
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>>66779081
>unless you're in southeast Asia
Good thing for Ausfags, MT schools outnumber boxing schools here 3:1.
I’d also say, Dutch MT is better suited to westerners because the smaller thais focus on kicks too much, Dutch is a bit more balanced for a larger practitioner so a coach who has trained there for a time is a good idea.

Also I want to add some grappling, is it worth doing (Gracie) BJJ in a Gi or no gi? For self defence and fun. People wear jackets half the year where I’m from if that matters.
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>>66779081
>a century
Boxings been around a lot longer than that, even in a competitive sporting format

>unless you're in southeast Asia, odds are you're in a fucking McDojo
Not everyone lives in bumfuck nowhere. World champions teach at my gym and I'm on the other side of the planet
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>>66779081
based. boxing is king. practical, and simple. try doing an arm bar or reversal in a streetlight and you'll just get knocked out.
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>>66762678
Based
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>>66780367
I live in bum fuck nowhere and we have plenty of schools pop up around here. I learned from a 7 dan karate master. There is a world class kickboxing and BJJ teacher who trained with former MMA champions. There was a great Judo guy for 10 years in my area. The problem is they do retire eventually and close up shop. I would recommend you just train anywhere you can.
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>>66765242
Yeah, but if you know how to actually fight, and you immediately bite some dude's nutsack, you're a faggot.
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>>66760500
>Suplexes your head onto concrete.
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>>66780587
>doing 20 years for murder charge because some guy called you a pussy
>>
>ctrl+F "boxing"
>1/77
Kek. /fit/ has no original opinions. Just parroting shit they've heard from some other autist here.
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>>66780761
I'm surprised that barely anyone mentioned Sambo. Muay Thai is acceptable as well.
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>>66780680
>you're feeding worms while every woman in your life is writing them love letters and sending them nudes
Heh, little does he know you are the true winner
>>
>literally no one itt remembers mayweather vs mcgregor
>no one remembers nigweather being put in unironically lethal situations, but cuckold boxing rules saved his life
>this happened SEVERAL TIMES
>mcgregor literally couldn't stop himself from flanking nigweather and attempting to choke him out pre-george floyd era
>m-muh footwork
>n-no, b-boxers w-would p-pulp you in a c-clinch
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>>66760500
Someone with actual fighting experience will beat the shit out of you no matter what kind of shit you try to pull
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>>66779081
> Train harder.

Well just train harder for Myau Thai then, pick up a routine of 5km runs or 1h of jump rope per day (can be split into two) daily and work on your strength training and conditioning of your ankles for the low kicks. Its not that hard.
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>>66780975
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVlRnAxYAmc

> Karate guy says MMA fighters punches are weak against a 13 win guy.
> MMA guy is constantly in a chokehold by said karate guy.
> Karate guy goes to Kata (Form!) competitions and wins...

It seems like MMA teaches you how to grapple but not how to strike properly, lmao.
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>>66780975
>using a fixed fight as reference
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>>66759954
avoid meme martial art like shotokan karate
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>>66781251
> Meme cuz muh sports karate.

Easy fix, don't train for sports, train for fighting/self-defense karate. Two-different things that you fucking meatheads don't understand.
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>>66780379
Do you realize how easy somebody who's bigger than you can take you down? Even a football player could tackle you and ground and pound. Boxing on it's own is far from complete
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>>66781381
>Two-different things that you fucking meatheads don't understand.
Learn to read, nigger.
There is a reason I mention specifically Shotokan Karate instead of Karate in general.
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>>66781437
specifically mention*
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>>66779081
Based. Nothing but respect for the sweet science.
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>>66759954
If you're gonna do boxing though get better gloves. Those cheap gloves will only give you wrist pains after years even with good form.
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>>66759954
take MMA. Boxing will be the easiest and most effective to learn, but still leaves some weak points. An MMA gym will cherry pick every "meta" technique from each martial art and teach you how to use them in a context where an opponent might know any martial art as well. Since it's kinda new compared to other martial arts people might tell you to learn what they learned first, but just embrace the advancement of human knowledge and learn the style that helps you win fights the best
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>>66781381
Honestly, a sport karate or TKD guy would smack the shit out of a "traditional karate practitioner/karate self defense curriculum" guy in most situations. The self defense guys aren't used to getting hit, aren't used to cutting angles, and will tend to overreact and flinch. Competition and sport heighten technique and athleticism, even the half-assed semi-contact of rules of krotty and TKD.
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>>66780827
Sambo is pretty rare. Many major cities might not have a Sambo gym. If you live in an area with a gym great, but it is not a super well known martial art.
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>>66781094
Karate guys know how to punch really hard, but they don't have a ton of different angles to throw those punches. It can be hard to get through someones guard. I do think you can patch it up with more modern techniques and practices though. I used to do karate and I know train a more well rounded regiment.
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>>66780827
Because the US scene is basically limited to Illinois, DFW, the Northeast Corridor, and California - where it's even more niche than judo - which is already a niche, and unpopular recreational sport.
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>>66778863
Go to a gym that trains no gi bjj, preferably one that also teaches mma or even better just flat out calls it submission grappling. 30% of our training consists of takedowns and takedown defense, and learning the easier wrestling takedowns in combination with ground game is probably better for self defense as an adult than only wrestling (I wouldn’t know, I’m not a subhuman so I don’t get into random fights). Every single wrestling coach will tell you that wrestling is the one martial art where you’re fucked if you didn’t start as a kid
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>>66766252
>learn to eye poke and kick balls
So Krav Maga then?
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>>66759954
Try MMA and see what parts of it you like. I think that submission grappling is the best martial arts sport, but some people prefer striking or other types of grappling. Personally, since submission grappling really encompasses all types of grappling under very loose rules, it’s difficult to see why anyone would recommend something else unless they’re ignorant of it.
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>>66783899
Chav Mega is such a fucking meme of a martial art
>Be kikes
>Due to standard treatment of the worthless goy- I mean neighboring states, be constantly at war
>Develop style that focuses on desperation fighting, with the goal of victory at all costs
>Despite the attempt at the super duper fighting style, you still get BTFO'd by the Romans
>Millennia later, your fighting style, much like your country makes a comeback
>Unfortunately also like your country, it's seen as illegitimate
>Have retards """teach""" it incorrectly due to it being designed to kill, destroying what little credibility it might have had
>On top of it having poor teaching, the style is banned from tournaments due to the aforementioned issue of it being made to cause maximum damage
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>>66784123
Let’s put it this way, I wouldn’t fuck with a mossad agent, but the stuff they teach you everywhere else is fucking bullshit. We had a new guy in our mma gym that had done Krav maga before, and with the way he threw punches I’m surprised he hasn’t broken his wrists yet
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>>66777185
how do you even get set up for this
do you stand on something in the middle first and have someone take it away
>>
I do KM because it's pretty much the only thing available next to where I live. There's a lot of sparring so I don't think it's a mcdojo but do you guys think it's worth anything at all?
>>66760949
Is BJJ as effective as boxing?
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>>66759954
Wrestling, muy thai, bjj.
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>>66760500
You'll never get to do any of those things because any trained fighter is first and foremost proficient at defending themselves.
>>
Is 24 too late to start a martial art
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>>66784445
No but you will probably never compete.
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>>66784790
I don't want to compete but I want to git gud before my thirties, is it feasible?
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>>66781381
what's the difference?
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>>66765242
If he tries a double leg on concrete, the "rules" are his least worry. One of the Gracied bitches broke both of his knees like that and had to crawl around to try and submit the opponent (a bouncer).
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>>66770028
>Why karate in a street fight over boxing/MT?
Check out how WW2 close combat went. tl;dr: Karate won. And Karate also won 2/3 against MT in the 1960s pre-MMA matches too.
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>>66784913
You could get pretty competent with 6 years. If you have talent and dedication you could get really good.
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>>66785072
Would two sessions per week be too little for actual progress?
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>>66784957
The only problem with Karate is Olympic Karate. A lot of competitions have changed to the same rule set and so have a lot of schools. If you can find a more traditional school Karate is a very well rounded and powerful martial art.
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>>66784942
Watch King of the Streets on yt to see what mma on concrete looks like. Most of the time, takedowns work.
>>66784913
Depends on your definition of good. You will never be elite, but you can become skilled.
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>>66785078
You will make decent progress. You would get competent. If you practiced what you learn at home for an hour or two a day another 2 days a week you would get very good. If you just practice whatever you learned in a session the next day for an hour you will progress very quickly. Most people don't practice enough when they leave the gym. Even if you didn't practice in 6 years you would be decent at whatever you are studying.
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>>66785105
>>66785121
Ok thanks anons
I'm wondering if I should go for BJJ or boxing, or maybe MT. These three seem like the only worthwhile ones
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>>66767989
unironically nice advice. though for some sports it doesn.t really work.
I.e. you'll learn a lot in 1 year of boxing, but you'll need many more years of judo to become even remotely proficient.
A judo blackbelt means barely knowing the basics
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>>66785180
What are the sports where the progression curve is beginner-friendly
>>
>>66785144
Whichever has the best coach and is closest
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>>66785144
That will probably come down to gyms that are available in your area and what feels like it suits you. Boxing gyms tend to be more serious and fight oriented, so you won't be able expect too much attention from the coaches as a late starter. There's usually a casual community there too, though, unless it's a really hardcore old school gym. I'd guess muay thai is more casual oriented, at least outside of thailand, and bjj is always pretty beginner friendly. You'll find which one suits you if you try them out.
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>>66785224
Kind of hard to judge a coach's competence when you don't know shit about martial arts. Aside from the obvious telltale signs of a scam, like "guaranteed belts in X amount of time" or whatever
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>>66785234
Sherdog is a thing.
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>>66785248
Isn't that only for the USA?
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>>66785233
You're right. Closest to me is just shit like shaolin kung fu and qi gong or whatever though so that sucks
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>>66785233
>Boxing gyms tend to be more serious and fight oriented, so you won't be able expect too much attention from the coaches as a late starter
I wanted to learn boxing due to the simplicity, then get back to grappling as my main side sport... but this seemed to be the case in the only 2 gyms in my area catering for a wide range in one class (also only through mma gyms). First classes it was straight to counter combos and then sparring an hour in. The coaches were really good and helpful so I feel like I could pick it up fairly quickly even at 27, but I also would rather the basics first. There’s no one on one session times sadly. Muay Thai seems more accessible.
Would I be faster learning Muay Thai if I spend on some one to one classes to start and get the fundamentals properly, or should I try straight into high level boxing and teach myself the basics... maybe talk a coach into some private classes for cash
>>
>>66785192
boxing and bjj have a very easy learning curve at the beginning, then they get much harder going on as you go into the details
>>
>>66785180
>A judo blackbelt means barely knowing the basics
In Japan, where they have no problem giving kids black belts for legitimately just knowing the basics. This is something that TKD actually got right. A European blue or brown belt would just be a black belt in Japan.
>>
>>66773089
Boxing is the most common primary practice of UFC champions
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>>66779081
I trained MT for about 6 months a while back but haven’t done any martial arts since so I’m probably shit now. I have bad mobility and awful kicks so I think I will dedicate myself to boxing and if I ever get in a fight where someone is kicking or something I can just use the really quite easy blocks that deal with most kicks. Basic defense from kicking seems like it would fit well with boxing since the style is so reserved and defensive.
>>
>>66784252
Sure, but the only people who are really learning proper Chav Mega are Mossad and Spec Ops.
I wouldn't even trust the regular army to learn and teach teach it properly.
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>>66787199
Why would you want to do "proper" Jew Jitsu when the founder and his students started a bar fight with some goys they outnumbered, and got their asses kicked?
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>>66788202
I wouldn't. That's why I shit on it so hard
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>>66786719
Boxing is a weak martial art overall, as it only focuses on striking
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>>66786719
That would be wrestling.
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>>66786719
You wouldn't know it by watching the pricks.
>>
This thread has more homoeroticism in it than half of /hm/
>>
>>66784445
Everyone gets ideas like this, bit they're just resistance to becoming better. Of course you can git gud. Seen unfit people start and paas others by at that age just because they loved it so much. Who's going to be better in 2 years time, the you that didnt train or the you that trained?
>>
>>66760500
>*grabs ur cock*
how is this move called?
>>
>>66790802
the ol dick twist
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1E1VY4KOghI
>>
Find a multidiciplinary gym, they will probably teach BJJ and MT, sometimes they will also have general mma classes or wrestling classes. Boxing gyms usually only do boxing. the ideal combination is some stricking, some groundwork but i dont think the details matter.
>Krav
You need to practice something that is used extensivly in compition or it just becomes some bullshido akido super-karate tier shit.

"But what is the best for self defense?!??" pepper spray and CCW classes. This is 2022. If you are throwing hands on the street, its because you want to not because its the best option.
>>
>>66792051
Ill add on quick that to get 80% of your lifetime skill will take about a year. Once you get to a certial basic level of competancy, mastering it will take the rest of your healthy adult life for most martial arts. The rest is just maintaining it. Instincts like sprawl reaction wont really go away too much but the details will fade fast.
>>
>>66762678
What is this LARP word salad?
Didn’t read all that.
/fit/ are such idiots it’s surprising.
>>66759954
Boxing. I’m going to a gym very soon myself.
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>>66760500
>*bites you*
>*grabs ur cock*
Hehehe...anon-kun stoooop...
>>
>>66770489
>>66770183
Get this meme crap off my board.
>>
>>66777570
>Trusting in the (((legal system)))
>In 2008, much less 2022
NGMI
G
M
I
Read up on some cases and come back, haven’t the last 2 decades taught you anything?
>Muh Bezosz
Sorry dude I’m NOT Bezos, and I can’t move like he does.
Is /fit/ this retarded so often?
>>
>>66759954
ITF Tkd
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>>66767702
Nothing wrong MT, let the boxers seethe
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>>66759954
whatever dojo/gym is closest to your house tbqh
anything else is autism
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>>66788202
>started a bar fight and got their asses kicked
Story on this anon?
>>
Competitive boxing. Not just any old boxing class will do-- go to an actual boxing gym if you can, or a martial arts annex.
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>>66783666
You dont have to start as a child to learn decent takedown defense
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>>66760611
If u can find a gym you should try sambo/combat sambo
>>
If you want something that will help you in an altercation, either boxing or Muay Thai.
>>
>>66793855
>sambo/combat sambo
There's a difference?
>>
>>66795245
One is competition the other is military training. Both are good schools because the competition rules are good and the battlefield techniques focus on quick or silent take downs as well as disarming and hand to hand combat. They bleed a lot into each other as well as competitors and military members like to train together.
>>
>>66795531
That's cool.
I'll see if there's any Sambo gyms in my city. I was also looking at Muay Thai and kick boxing
>>
>>66784913
impossible to get gud without competition. Also pointless.
>>
I know I'm late as fuck but is getting into boxing at 30+ worth it? I have free time and found a boxing gym in a super small town and throught about it for off days. I doubt I'd try to actually compete but learning and training in it might be cool.
>>
>>66795862
It's good for any age. You're extremely unlikely to go pro but it's great for cardio, coordination, balance, reactions, etc
>>
>>66759954
Just went to my first bjj class. Studio is like barely two miles from home so I can bike there for classes. Professor is chill as fuck so that’s rad. Seems like a cool group of people.
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>>66795245
sport sambo = judo without pants.
combat sambo = mma with jacket.
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>>66796249
>sport sambo = judo without pants.
Don't threaten me with a good time
>combat sambo = mma with jacket.
As in Jacket from Hotline Miami?
Holy fuck
>>
>>66759954
anyone know where I can train a knife fighting centric martial art in the PNW?
I've been reading a lot about Jim Bowie lately and I want to learn how to use my Western Bowie for it's original intended purpose now.
>>
>>66759954
Bump
>>
Made a copy pasta of what I said in the other Martial arts thread, with some other info added.

I would recommend Judo, but a more traditional Judo rather than the modern style, because judo now a days is more streamlined, too many moves that are great for self defense situations where banned because they where too dangerous or made the fights too complex for the olympics. It's more a strength based training, maybe that's in your ballpark.

If Judo is not your cup of tea, you can do other wrestling type martial arts like Jujitsu, Wrestling or Russian Sambo.

Then if you're not convinced by those either, (this is not a shitpost) Karate, more like a Shotokan style, they teach you some wrestling, self defense moves, and the typical kicking and punching, and some weapon use (if you have a decent teacher). Gaining flexibility is part of the training.

Then Muay Thai, personally i don't know that much about it, seems interesting, and they do some light grappling if I'm not wrong. But it's more focused in being a combat sport, like kick boxing MMA type. So not sure.

Take the last part with a heavy pinch of salt, because i don't know that much about Muay Thai. But im confident in my other recommendations.

I would also complement every martial art you do, with some strength training in the gym, because in my opinion they lack that aspect.
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>>66798864
Isn’t shotokan a restricted rules version, I thought kyokushin was more legit with full contact.
As for judo and generally the traditional Japanese styles I’d have to agree provided you get a real teacher and school. Probably harder to judge than a Muay Thai gym with active fighters for example. I haven’t done these but did JJJ. Which is considered a meme here... but we sparred for the stand-up throws, and for ground work every class. Had a good amount of self defence type moved with a focus on the basics. All the teachers were cops, a few had judo belts, and had at least some real “muh streets” experience. I can see how it would turn into a larp in the wrong setting.
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>>66783899
>Krav Maga
It's not a real martial art, just the name for IDF equivalent of basic training.
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>>66799040
Shotokan is point krotty. Near to light contact and the engagement finishes as soon as a point is scored. It's basically unarmed fencing.

Kyokushin is full power but has no clinch nor head punches.
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>>66760500
If the one who trained martial arts also use dirty tricks, your advantage is gone and his fighting skills will make him win.
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>>66760566
Boxers train a lot on how to be at the right distance from the opponent, of course his jabs won't stop a good wrestler from reaching him but while reaching for the boxer, the wrestler can put his head in a place where the boxer can easily place a hook.
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>>66760895
You'll just get hit with a bunch of jabs and they have special helmets.
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>>66762678
Do a martial art before this though. After a year of boxing you can defeat anyone who hasn't trained martial arts unless maybe they're twice your size as long as they're not some genius street fighter from an action movie. And most of those people you fight in the street won't be extremely good just from street fighting.
If you lose all the fights easily in the beginning, you don't really learn much. You don't get much experience if you don't get a chance to actually fight the guy before losing.
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>>66766252
You don't get better at dirty tricks by being bad at martial arts
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Boxing for the heart, Judo for the soul. Never a bad idea to take a few kickboxing/muay thai classes a year also.
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>>66767777
If you're close enough to attempt to grab the boxer, he's probably close enough to move in for a punch
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There's a boxing gym close to where I live but it's in the middle between my part of the city which is 100% and a non-white ghetto. There's probably a fuckton of them there, it's likely there won't be any problems but I'd prefer to go to a gym with my own people.
On the other hand I mog every single non-white person I've ever seen IRL in height, reach and shoulder width.
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>>66795819
lol
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>>66798864
LMAO imagine recomending karate instead of muay thai. Karate will not teach you how to properly fight, imagine lowering you arms everytime you punch facepalm.
The only good recommendation in your list is Sambo and MT.



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