Why isn't every tradie in their respective union?What is the advantage to working non-union?
>>2248261>What is the advantage to working non-union?As a worker? Literally nothing.There are 0 redeeming qualities of working non-union over union.As a bossman?You can hire and fire at will. You can pay non competitive shit wages. You can have worse working conditions where workers have no recourse. In general you have far more power to trash your workers, to wring out every last drop of profit.How do you convince someone to work against their own best interests and be anti-union?Identity politics.>Didnt you know that unions are all CORRUPT DEMON-RATS!>Youve gots to pay UNION DUES to a bunch of DEMON-RATS!>Dont you know union workers all are LAZY AND DO NO WORK, and CANT EVEN GET FIRED FOR IT!>I know a manager at a union shop who says he wishes he could pay his best workers MORE but he CANT because of their dreaded CONTRACT! Isnt it much nicer to be working here where the highest paid worker is making even less than their lowest man on the totem pole!Yes, you are a strong conversative man owning the libs by working in the non union shop.You should take pride you do supposedly "more work" than the lazy union guys, for less pay, with no job security, because of the promise that you can "work your way up the ladder" by outhustling everyone else.Once people realize that they have been had, and their "working their way to the top" was a fucking lie, its already been 20 years, and they have already hit their peak at the shop 10 years ago, and they cant just up and leave.But at least they didnt pay them demonrats union dues amirite?
>>2248272Kek, so glad I'm not retardedI don't work a trade, I sling mail. But we've got a HELL of a union. 6 guaranteed raises a year
Every single trade I know that works union has great pay, amazing benefits, easy work.The people who claim unions are for fags are those who believe if you work 80 hours a week and slave away you are supposedly a better man.
>>2248261The guys who tell you that unions are bad and are for communists and aren't for REAL MEN are usually the guys not on the tools. They've probably never even held an IKEA hex key. Don't trust anyone in a suit and with soft-hands on a jobsite.
>>2248261i'm a cubecuck working around union mechanics. i didn't really like the union because they had reps that were the male version of HR clipboard nazis. also they enabled truly lazy fuckers, like don't you get bored sitting in a fucking chair all day? don't you ever want to try out this neat "torque wrench" that people keep talking about? i'm now pro union though because they're stonewalling the vaxx mandate.
Disadvantageous to be in a union? I don't see it.Henry Hazlitt does a pretty good write-up of the problems unions introduce to the rest of society.
>>2248261Union politics. Works never gets done right. If your union is corrupt (99% are) you're fucked in the long run. Fuck unions.
They couldn't even stop vaccine mandates in the workplace, they can go fuck themselves.
They sponsored a fag parade in my city once
Also they support vax mandates
>>2248261I'm a commercial electrician with about 12 years experience. My local union is a fucking turd. Not the rank and file, the admin side. Corrupt too. When the city put a big job out to bid they ended up selecting a non-union firm to do the work and the union rolled over and let them do it because they got a kickback from the other company. Sure, it meant less work for the rank and file but at least the office workers got a nice bonus that year. They also didn't do shit unless it was a legal/job related thing. For them, going the extra mile was someone else's problem. I was working for myself for about a year and they wouldn't reduce my dues even though half the little work they did do didn't apply. Think about that; paying dues to them to make sure I didn't screw over myself. I was a member for over 3 years and not a single year went buy that they didn't fuck up my dues. They 'said' the rate you paid was based on income for that month and capped at a certain amount but I caught them overcharging me several times during lean months. It took months to get refunds too. Eventually I quit. Even that was a hassle. I had to send them a certified letter twice, both times signed for and both times they claimed the never got it. I then hand delivered it to their offices and recorded the whole thing letting them know up front I was recording it. That finally worked.My last union was fucking great. It was much larger and the union was always organizing events and shit. We had a few sports leagues of different types, BBQs and dinners a few times a year, Thanksgiving events for the people that didn't have family in the area, and the dues were lower too. They also had a spine and would picket big non-union jobs. Everyone who was worth a damn was a member of the union so every shop was a union shop. I moved to care for my folks and as soon as I can I'm moving back. I'm only like 3 hours drive away too. You cross a state boarder and its a different world.
>>2248307Damn, this was all with the IBEW? Crazy how different the locals can be. I just started a job as a commercial electrician to see how I like it, and I'm really liking it a lot. I want to join the IBEW but I live in Texas and the union isn't very strong here.
bureaucracy is gay, and I like working in a two-man crew where often times how the job is done is up to me, so I can work in peace without some retard telling me what to do. more Independence basically.
Demand for union jobs outstrips supply of union jobs. I've yet to get hired to a unionized workplace.
>>2248261I'd be in an eletricial union but I work for a non-union company that's relatively small (<10 people) and it's night and day how much more I learn compared to my experiences in big companies and talking to some of the union apprentices who only sling pipe and pull bx for 4 years. Not to mention I don't plan on being a lifer so, what's the point in investing in a pension? Might as well take whatever I can learn and use that for my next path.
>>2248261Fucking hell how much are you getting paid to shit all over the slowest board on 4chan. Suck a dick faggot.Tripfag your next union shill shit so I can block you automaticallyReal union experiences here: the retarded fucking piece of shit that literally gets 0 work done unless he is on meth ruins the entire county and gets 3 people fired because there's no work left in the county.He moves on with the union because he has seniority.Stumbles out of his truck in front of three managers, does a weaving drunk walk around the truck, notices the managers are still there, and gets back in his truck and drives off. (He is onna bunch of shit right now, blood tests positive for shit 200% DUI)Gets fired for this unavoidable bullshit. Gets job back somehow because union reasons?The guy that's a hard worker and was going to take over for him says fuck it, quits and becomes a contractor. The rest of the crew in his new county quits or relocates tonother counties because the pill popper is such an insufferable piece of shit.Fuck you jim. Fuck you IBEW.
Unions are trash these days and work with the suits because they are run by suits. Used to be that unions were managed by guys who worked the jobs, nowadays you need a college degree to get involved. Also I don't like when unions take stances on issues that have nothing to do with labourers rights. I don't give a shit about fags or BLM or democracy. Lastly I don't like being hated by the general public, I work for the electricity supply board, and a couple of years ago our union decided to go on strike at Christmas for a pay rise, our rep in the media talked about stealing Christmas from children, making sure trees were not lit and so on. I've never seen the public turn so quickly, several of the guys I work with had the shit kicked out of them, were barred from bars and pubs, police were pulling us for the slightest things, the union reps home was firebombed. I left after that, fuck unions.
>>2248272based and union pilled
>>2248324Yup. The unions in 'Right to Work' states are gutted. That is why you find those laws in mostly conservatives areas. Unions lean left so they pass laws to weaken them and keep them out of politics. There are exceptions of course. California is a weak 'Right to Work' state for example. There are still many strong unions there but only in certain trades. Mostly government.The real issue with unions is the are basically regional monopolies. Have a problem with your local union? Admins are shits? They are too much into politics? The dues are egregious for the service they provide? Your options are to leave the union or move. Makes it difficult to root out shitty unions. Rather unamerican in my opinion.
>>2248288If no disadvantages, why have industries grown in the non-union south, while Detroit is a symbol of the rust belt around it?
>>2248730I'm sure there's nothing else in Detroit that makes it bad for industry.
>>2248261Unions, well, unions are something. Look, I'm in a union, and we have work for the next 8-10 years (barring catastrophic social disintegration) and then yeah, work comes and goes. I do not believe in unions long term, because this country has gone to shit. Too many undercutters (spics, shitgut bad job whites and methheads, etc), too much focus on cost saving, and a lot of union guys are not as good individually. But without them construction guys would get shafted over and over again, so I appreciate their historical inputs and all that. And unions remain competitive because they are great at lobbying, AND they still are more likely to complete fuckhueg and complex industrial jobs closer to deadlines, and within budgets. It's a hell of a niche.>t. depressed apprentice who knows it's a big pile of shit he's getting into but also admits that the mafia's influence somehow winds up helping average joes get better wages and shit
>>2248730>uhh if unions are so good why are several states more successful than this 1 single city???????
I like the idea of unions,and I really appreciate the benefits. It makes me fume, though, when I see that my dues are going to fake gay political bullshit and lining the pockets of fat mullatress communications majors. I've been meaning to go to meetings more regularly, but I'm not optimistic about the trajectory of things. >>2248302Mine only made a token gesture of asking for "clarification." Not a single person in the shop, if not the entire local, is in favor of the mandate. A few people have already walked and bunch more certainly will once the deadline comes.
>>2248272You're not wrong at all. Having said that, I work as an independent contractor. My primary employer had a position open up. It's not "exactly" my position or what I do, but I'm very qualified to fill the shoes of the guy that's leaving. I was strongly encouraged to apply.It's a union position. The starting pay is less than half of what I make as an independent. Minus the dues. Minus the health plan (which is triple gold-star, from what I'm told), and minus the mandatory 401K contribution that I have no interest in contributing to. Plus punching a time clock and being held to the sacred 40hr/5day week. Also, it opens me up to mandatory vaccination, and puts me under the ever-watchful eyes of the blue-haired HR brigade.I know that after 20 years in the position, the guy that's leaving still isn't making what I make as an independent. Not even close. Like $20K less. And he hit the cap years ago.So, what's the sense?
>>2249108Can you read??> Detroit is a symbol of the rust belt around itThere is a general difference between the “unionized north” and the “non-union south”The rust belt is a thing.There was a recent dust-up about Boeing putting its recent expansion into the Unionized Seattle area, or the non-unionized southeast. Did you read which area got it?
>>2249242Independent contractors take more risks, get less benefits, and are expected to be experts in their field (unless talking about foot-in-the-door roles). There are years where indies get paid triple everyone else, and years where finding work feels impossible. The last five or so years, sans early covid, have been amazing for independent work. Hindsight is 20/20 though.>blue-haired HR brigade.Even the shittiest union will insulate you from roastie office politics.>the guy that's leaving still isn't making what I make as an independent>So, what's the sense?The guy that's leaving was basically guaranteed safe, consistent pay and health insurance for his family through a couple decades. That's important for raising kids. A healthy society needs stability in it's labor, and if everyone was a contractor then contractor pay would be reduced to regular pay.
>>2248272pretty much.with every horror story about the dread lazy union worker, I personally witnessed things just as bad or even worse in non-union shops.The root cause of people getting away with murder is managers too lazy, or spinless, to file the disciplinary paperwork.
>>2248343>slowest boardthis isnt /n/ retard
>>2248261Why are people so absolutist?Unions, like nations, grow out of a need for mutual preservation, become successful, then blaoted and corrupt once they get too powerful.The question is broad and ill-framed, and thus STUPID.
>>2248273I failed the new postal exam and now i want to kms its a fucking personality quiz. Less then 10 questions were mail related all others were what would you do in x situqtion or does y or z fit you better
>>2248261>What is the advantage to working non-union?undercutting union kwabs
>>2249283You reminded me that the original Skyking thread was up for years after the fact.
>>2249365I would take factory work over living in the woods, if I worked in an office I would want to burn it down
>>2249532>repetitive factory work >office droneI'm not sure which one is more soul sucking.
I like making money
If unions are so good why did they let all manufacturing leave? Stupid workers should have tourched all the Chinese junk instead of buying it.
>>2249745>chinese manufacturing begins to overtake US manufacturing (in domestic US market) in 80s>reagan is president during this time, busting unions for the first time in 40 years and running smear campaigns to cripple perceptions, still affecting future generations todaynot a coincidencewho knows, they might have put up a fight if they weren't being dismantled and advertised against at the time
>>2249843>Reagan gives amnesty to illegals>bill clinton gives China most favored nation status, easiest cheapest shipping tariffs taxes possible.>bill Clinton gives them ICBM technology >bill clinton gives them stealth fighter to reverse engineer>bill clinton gives america and canada aids.There's a club and you're not in it, even if you're a card carrying cccp member, you're not really in it. Maybe if you execute all your friends and family for the party they'll keep you around and let you live in their hellscape
>>2249745> let all manufacturing leaveThey didn’t let the employers leave, they made leaving the best option.
>2248261For an actual trade I don't think there's any real downside. But for more minimal jobs that have unionized I have some examples. There's a meat packing plant near me that unionized. Pre-union they had dental and vision with their medical and quarterly bonuses directly from the owner if they hit quotas. Post-union their raises stagnates, lost vision and dental, lost bonuses entirely. Kroger's that unionized lowered their hourly wage, got stricter with scheduling and covering for others, and got a shitter healthcare plan, but hey I guess they can't tell you to stock shelves in a different department or bag if you're not an official bagger anymore.
>>2249905>Maybe if you execute all your friends and family for the party they'll keep you around and let you live in their hellscapeYou don't even have to execute them personally, just snitch on them and have them sent to the goolags. Like in the good old days.
>>2250125You need a bagging certificate and at least 36 hours of bagging training to do that.
>>2248272In highschool i worked for a union in a grocery store which was mandatory. They took so much pay that I had to quit. They suck if youre just trying to make money for a few years
IBEW member at a nuclear power plant. Unless I intentionally damage equipment, forge paperwork, fail a piss test, or take a swing at someone I am basically unfireable. As a trainee most of my days involve relatively mundane tasks like fixing emergency lights or cleaning corrosion off station batteries. Biggest hassle is the paperwork. Forced overtime can be shitty but doesn't happen too frequently. Rules/processes are very strict and inflexible but ensure a safe work environment. I can walk away from any job if I have a concern without repurcussions. Every worker except food service is a union member at my site. Even janitors fresh out of high school make roughly $20 an hour. I also have a company 401k match, discounted stock option, and decent insurance.
>>2250285>or take a swing at someoneare you sure this would get you fired?
>>2250300Honestly not sure. They've given people time off and mandated anger counseling in the past but I believe it was for "spirited discussions" and not actual threats being made. Even the dumbest guy on site is smart enough to know that the money is too good to fuck up. Only time I've seen someone almost get fired is when a guy showed up drunk and failed a breathalyzer at like 10am after a 6am start time. He got company alcohol dependency counseling and retired immediately after completing it. He was a bit of an odd situation though. He had almost died the day before when he blew up a 4kv breaker with no bomb suit on, walked away with no serious injuries and came back the next day; making it a non-OSHA recordable. pic related: what he should have been wearing
>>2248261unions>cost money>...that again goes to support the labour party that ironicly doesnt support the average wagie with their politics>protects the useless retards and you can guarantee they send an army of lawyers at you if you try to ask politely if they maybe would consider finding another job>offer nothing for skilled non-retarded workersunions was needed decades ago, now that all their demands have become the legal minimum there is no need for them.
>>2250334Go away, glowie.
>>2248272you can't even be a small bossman and be a union guy. Union likes big guys.
>>2249277>Independent contractors take more risks, get less benefits, and are expected to be experts in their field>The guy that's leaving was basically guaranteed safe, consistent pay and health insurance for his family through a couple decadesCan't argue with digits. Both points are true. That's basically what the decision is coming down to for me. Do I want that guaranteed stability and to have some of those expenses taken off my back? Or do I want to keep going the way I'm going? The "creative accounting" one can utilize as the sole-proprietor of a small business pretty much makes up for having to shell out for your own health insurance, and then some. (I'm creeping up on six figures, but I got huge tax refunds the last three years in a row.)I'm pretty secure no matter what. I have a very uncommon, well-rounded skill set that allows me to play EE, tech, ME, machinist, half-assed IT guy, and whatever else comes up in the fray.Aside from Leaving Guy, there's one other person in the department who's been there almost as long, but he's stayed a contractor the whole time. He's doing quite well for himself. Wife, kids, home, cars, etc. But he does say that there are lean months and years here and there.So yeah. Decisions, decisions. Sorry to blog the place up on you.
>>2248742and the south, where those problems originally came from, doesn't have even more of them chimping around?unions look out for hte brass, and are the definition of nepotism. >>2248996my uncle was a life long UMWA man. they did jack shit for him once he got blacklung. >>2249277>Even the shittiest union will insulate you from roastie office politics.HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHHAHAAHHA OH GOD, DO YOU BELIVE HAT HORSESHIT? unions and especially their management are full of fuckup women in admin. its all office politics and the bullshit that entails. >>2249843>NOT GIVING CREDIT WHERE ITS DUE, TO BILL CLINTON. ngmi
I've only been in one union. The only thing I need to know is that my shop's top rate for a machinist (which I am at currently, and which you achieve in 6 years) is ~$43 an hour, whereas outside of here in local shops, you'd have a hard time breaking $30 an hour. Plus, there's the fact that I only pay $50 a month for health, dental, and vision. Dues are only a bit over $100 a month. Every union is different, but the math you need to do to see if it is worth it is the same.
>>2250470clinton was a faggot but reagan is the fucking father of neoliberalism, the system which traded unions for "market efficiency"
Unions are for people who do not have the skills to negotiate for themselves. I can negotiate better than any fatcat on a permanent wage.
>>2248272>>2249242Bullshit union cock-suckers. Unions exist to siphon off talent from the labor supply and divert it into a certain group of companies that the Union has business with. They make you do a 4 year program while paying you market average rates for 4 years. An intelligent candidate can achieve a greater higher potential by going independent and learning as much as they can from every career-related job there is. Reason being union jobs DO cut hours (leaving you with as little as 16 hours a week of paid work) while restricting you from working anything else. It's bullshit. Fuck unions, and fuck union people. They aren't even really leftist anyways, most of them larping as Democrats. Fucking faggots couldn't even stop the fraud against Trump.
>>2248272>Literally nothingNot in Clown World. There was that Australian builders union that recently forced its members to take the clot shot.
>>2248272>>I know a manager at a union shop who says he wishes he could pay his best workers MORE but he CANT because of their dreaded CONTRACT! This is too real lol
>Hey guys, some parts of being a union-worker suck ass.>YOU'RE JUST ONE OF THOSE EVIL NAZIPUBLICANS THAT WANT US TO WORK 80 HOUR DAYS, 7 DAYS A WEEK LIKE IN THE RACISMTIMESjesus christ are you guys getting your dicks sucked for this or something?
>>2250410wtf is a glowie?
>>2251459>This is too real lolThat is just a polite way of saying you aren't worth more. If you disagree, get back on the books and find an employer that appreciates your extra value. If your employer misses you, maybe they will hire you back at the higher rate. If you are just a snowflake that is too special to work for base wage but offers nothing extra of value, leaving won't benefit you. Unless maybe you get a travel letter and find a place where electricians are scarce and your mediocrity is reason for praise.TL/DR: It actually isn't uncommon to make more than the base pay in the union. You just have to be better than others.
>>2251556Its literally counter to 99% of the bargaining agreements. What are they gonna do, give you a special job title for being a good boy?Oh sorry when you applied to the transfer to the new better paying job it was snagged by some faggot with 25 years seniority, because jobs are given by seniority, not by being a good employee
>>2251575>Its literally counter to 99% of the bargaining agreements. What are they gonna do, give you a special job title for being a good boy?Minimum pay is minimumUnions negotiate the minimum pay. Employers negotiate maximum pay. If the employers in your area fought for pay caps, it wasn't because they secretly wanted to give you more money.Companies prefer promotions to paying extra money for the same classification but if they need you they will keep you happy. Have you even tried to get more? If so, what would happen if you left?
>>2248261>What is the advantage to working non-union?Well I could actually negotiate my hourly wage instead of being bound to the absolute shitpile of a wage chart we have now with basically no hopes of getting any kind of substantial raise within the next few years.I'm a diligent worker so I never needed the job security aspect of unions.
>>2248272>>2248261100%, The roadmap of working open shop should always end in business ownership or some other form of self determination. You will never get rich of wages.
>>2248261if you have talent unions suck because you aren't getting paid what you're worth. if you are some shitter, its great because you get paid a living wage while being mediocre at what you do.
Out of curiosity, which union demands wage caps against the wishes of the employers who want to pay more?So what is stopping union workers from doing what union workers do here and negotiate a higher pay?Seems like unhappy people just want to be unhappy. As long as you're making at least the minimum and they are getting the correct amount of that wage, unions don't give a shit how much more you make.
Unions are for lazy niggers, prove me wrong.
>>2252904No I will not, that's someone else's job.
>>2252904>Unions are for lazy niggers, prove me wrong.Your happiness about being accepted is understandable, but unions are also for people who are not just like you. Congrats on getting in!
>>2252591ok fellow worker and definitely not factory owner goldberg
>>2248261Unions are for cowardly pussies that can't stand on their own.
>>2253222>no argument, just attack masculinityschlomo
>>2248272Bingo.>>2248273Public-sector unions are the only ones Reagan &c didn't bust, because the USPS and public school system don't make campaign contributions.>>2249106lol>>2251165Hey everybody we got John Galt over here!>muh Trump If you're still supporting that cunt after four years of nonstop betrayals of the White working class you're not an "intelligent candidate" for anything.
I will just put this here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBudiVNsW2E
Unions have their benefits but only if competently managed. Political activism/endorsement, office politics, and favoritism are not competent management.Unions in jurisdictions that don't require participation tend to be great, because the alternative is people not paying dues. Unions in jurisdictions that require participation tend to be lazy rent seekers incapable of providing value anywhere near the dues they collect. I'm all for union membership as long as it isn't coerced
>>2251517They think this is some battle ground area where they can convert self sufficient people to become reliant on the state or expand on the red-tape that stops us from doing mundane shit. The default is to be right-wing, that's why they need heavy amounts of propaganda to get anywhere.
>>2248261Unions don't really have any skin in the game. That is to say that don't care much if their industry is destroyed by their demands and protecting shit workers as vociferously as decent workers.
>>2255464>>2255464nah>>2248261the problem with unions is that theyre a separate entity from the business; is a fools folly to assume the people in charge/doing the mentally hardest work are fundamentally separate from labor and productReally unions are a bandaid on a bullet wound that is rabid-profitism. Ideally businesses would organize in such a way that people really are paid fairly in terms of their effort in vs. direct yield of that effort. Why they dont is answered by the same reasons most governments dont function. Unions can be a good thing in bad situations for workers, but them growing beyond their need is a bigger issue than people want to believe. Just look at union dues, lol, everyone's already working together for negotiating pay, why do the people directly talking to the higher ups also need bonus money on the side? it can be scheme (bad thing) even if its for a good reason. Some industries choke from unions, some dont. But a union is always a drag for a company, bureaucracy always slows things down in general and installing more of it is always a risk; the people in charge of the union and the business WILL change over time, the initial good intentions will likely be lost as well.
>>2255397>protecting shit workers as vociferously as decent workers.>That's a bad thing.>Because an agreement should only be binding to certain workers as a reward. Offering to pay someone the agreed upon rate and maintain the agreed upon conditions as a reward for excellence isn't as magnanimous as you might hope.
>>2248261Depends on the SPECIFIC union and SPECIFIC location. Piss on every bit of the philosophical shit. Only specifics (your location and your situation and your wallet) matter IRL.
>>2248730Low wages. The local Continental tire plant piled one million dollars worth of scrap the local porch primates ruined to try to get the point across but the cost of cheap labor is shit labor. (I witnessed the aforementioned pile.)The few white guys keep the place running but the real truth is tradies tend to be pieces of lower class shit with lower class minds (to use the term "minds" loosely) and deserve to be slaves for being who they are. The very few good ones suffer from the rest. Boeing also located to SC to escape union labor costs at the minor convenience of building shit aircraft in a firm once run by aviationists.>>2248996>t. depressed apprentice who knows it's a big pile of shit he's getting into but also admits that the mafia's influence somehow winds up helping average joes get better wages and shitThe Mafia are long gone (I'm old, really old) but they served a purpose because the bosses owned the cops and the judges and everyone else. The ONLY way to fight criminals that works is to become better criminals and all that morality bullshit you read about contending otherwise was always lies by shills or the delusional. Nothing is good. Make money. Look out for yourself but mobb deep when it pays. Nothing will ever be good except money and union wages built the US middle class. Americans are stupid trash kicked out of Euroland for being religious crazies so we'll never have a nation capable of intelligent labor/management relations, and certainly not without the impossible task of butchering all the Zionists.
>>2249745That's not how it works as they had no power to retain manufacturing. NAFTA was bipartisan with more GOP signers than Dems though Clinton signed off on it. Capital must seek cheap labor at all costs. Business is amoral. The rich do not need US manufacturing and much of it was so incompetently run it (steel industry comes to mind) it suicided.
>>2255480Yes and no. Yeah, companies and unions can butt heads. But unions also provide better trained members, massively lighten HR departments and manager conflicts by providing direct union based pathways to file grievances and complaints, and also generally makes for a more consistent workforce as well. Plus, then companies never have to negotiate with each single employee. This can be valuable in case of weak managers, and for huge companies. Unions have their benefits, mostly for workers, but companies have silver linings in there too.
>>2255515Pls expand more on the Boeing issues. I keep seeing that their planes are fucking up, but I have no first hand experience with that, nor the pile of shit you talked about in Detroit, which id also like to know more about. The mafia are actually still there, but most of their activity is white collar crime, which should come as no surprise I guess. The real corruption of unions is localized for the most part. Some locals are almost all owned by a single contractor, other times shops pay off a few top union members to get them to dissuade a picket for a scab workshop. But even in contractor owned locals, it’s still a better deal than non union for most workers, but unions definitely have their problems. >>2255517Business is amoral, and unions really only protect a middle class in a homogenous and natively grown society, which is hilarious to think that that fucking retard who opened us up to brown immigration in 1964 ended up helping fuck tons of worker shit up.
>>2252591Ultra based. You're likely just another apprentice, like me, earning double unlike them. Fucking lemmings.
>>2252674Just a cursory look at statistics shows for every year of on the job experience you earn double versus what union pays, if you're a smart person, which is most union members. They are short-changing you, and you know it, all to keep their pension ponzi scheme afloat, just like social security with the immigrants. thats why they are all for immigration at the end of the day and vote democrat. all the while suckering talent out of the labor pool, and making good candidates study something people learn in half the time
>>2252955absolute retard take. the guy is likely just the same year on the trade as you and quite literally making twice as much as you just because he's working like a bad ass mother fucker who is unchained, and eating your lunch in the market; where it really matters.
>>2253222Absolutely based and to the point take. Their are old soulless relics that rely on out dated tradition that includes abuse as a form of getting you to comply for peanuts on the dollar what they could get out in the market for themselves. Only sheep stick around for that.
I can work jobs on my own and charge $250 for two hours of work. Or I can charge less. And I can also show up and leave whenever I want. I can wear what I want, and do things however I want to. Freedom is great and it's what everyone should aspire to have. If you want to join a union fine but to want everyone to join one is lame.
>>2255505>come to work>dont do any workSorry fellow union brother, you'll just have to pull my absolutely dead weight because of the agreement. Lol
>>2255555Boeing moved production to Charleston and had to train local monkeys (I live in SC and worked in workforce education after retiring from da Chair Force, but not in Charleston) to sort of assemble aircraft. There being nil skilled trades base that took a long time as the local primary education systems are ghastly. OTOH Seattle is home to old Boeing which was built by aviationists not MBA scum and has the truly skilled aircraft trades base nowhere else can quite match.Most of the Mafia (as in Italian organized crime families which is what that term means, not generic greedy corrupt normal business) is local to northeastern urban hubs and was generally disrupted between cops and new immigrants taking the drug business. It has nil effect on unions in the South where it never penetrated because locals used to shoot wops for fun. I'm originally from NJ but escaped long ago before the big families were (incompletely) broken up. The Mafia was a survival tool for Italian immigrants early on as the Irish mob ruled the roost and WASPs pwned the governments, but unions paid the price for Mafia help which was Mafia rule. Today bigcorps have far more power nationally and local organized crime is feeble.
Union is all about law of averages. The average IQ of a union worker is 92. If you are below 92 IQ, you should absolutely join one because you will get promotions on a fixed schedule well beyond what you really deserve. If you are above 92, you will be dragged down by the bottom 50th percentile and progress slower than you would if you weren't in. That's it, dead simple math. That's what "equality" gets you.
>>2255678>come to work>dont do any work>Manager and worker hop on harleys and drive off into the sunset>Everyone clapsIf the contract specifies the worker doesn't need to do anything, why do you object to the employee following the contract?If the manager is too lazy to document a worker not following the contract, how is this the fault of a union?I get that it's fun to make up silly stories, but think about what your story is really saying. Either the manager is incapable of documenting bad work due to personal retardation or the company has worse business negotiating skills than the blue collar workers on the other side of the negotiating table. So why does this totally real and not imaginary company let someone come in, do nothing, and continue to get paid? Witchcraft? Thermal detonator smuggled in under his space helmet? Is he just that super cool of a guy? I'm sure you'll have an "answer".
>>2255755>If the contract specifies the worker doesn't need to do anything, why do you object to the employee following the contract?you're right the world would be much better if everyone was an unproductive lazy niggerworkers rights or not, establish some fucking standards man, people like you want the fucking dark ages to come back
>>2255636>just like youi'm not a dumb tradie
>>2255755oh so you've never worked a union job. union rep on my floor got caught napping once, said he had chest pains and left in an ambulance. Another guy at the pinnacle of our trade would wake himself up with his own snoring in the office, I once timed him with a 4hr phone argument with his gf on the phone. Work from home was allowed with covid, and I know of a woman who admitted to taking a 2hr nap, and a guy who went on a volunteer firefighting call on the clock. No punishment. And those are just people in my small sphere in a company of thousands. It's an absolute joke. No contract says you don't have to work, but when management is far enough removed in a large company, and the union will fight tooth and nail over shit head employees, most supervisors won't do a thing in case the blowback threatens their job (and they have no one to defend them). To conscientious and intelligent employees it's absolutely demoralizing. The good ones make lateral jumps into non-union positions, and the ones that stay behind become jaded. When you have almost no seniority, mid range pay, but are 40% of the output of a 16 man group (boss' words), how long before you check out and become a worthless slug? People hate unions for the same reasons people hate cops. no accountability. If they could handle their own, beat the mongloids with a sock full of doorknobs in a dark room, shit would honestly be better
>>2255669Exactly this. When that customer has unrealistic expectations, you go and tell him, and the issue gets fixed immediately. Why would anyone want to voluntarily subject themselves to being humiliated for the rest of their lives by being in a union?
>>2255810And the saddest shit about it is those shit workers have just the same amount of rights inside or outside the union, thanks to union's past activism. Shit worker feels he is being discriminated against in a way that violates equal employment opportunity law? He can file a complaint, and sue. Shit worker gets injured? He can file a workman's comp claim and get medical treatment and paid time off. All the while not having to pay anyone any due, and specially not having to subject themselves to bullshit hoop-jumping to obtain something someone can get in private for a lot less.
>>2248273Being a city carrier blows. I hope you're rural.
>>2255716You're a glittering example of a blithering idiot.
>>2255810>the union will fight tooth and nail over shit head employees>>2255972>shit workers have just the same amount of rights>>2255397>protecting shit workersEven shit workers are worth the absolute bare minimum. If you are so much better than them, have you considered negotiating more than the absolute minimum? No? You just want others to be treated so bad it violates the contract and/ or law? Stockholm syndrome is real. >>2255505>Offering to pay someone the agreed upon rate and maintain the agreed upon conditions as a reward for excellence isn't as magnanimous as you might hope.
>>2256054>shit workers are worth the bare minimumI see you have never done a days work in your life you fucking sponge.You seem to think they do the 'bare minimum' instead of sleep for 8 hours then get OT for punting their jobs back to the queue, or maybe they do go out and they just fuck everything up worse.Maybe they get some extra callout pay because one of the tickets they didnt do all week is actually an important e911 backbone. But he comes into work drunk and high and dances around his truck in front of five managers before getting in and the union still gets his job back.Maybe he fucks up the whole area so much 2 other people get fired because theres no work left because jim has given us all such a bad fucking nameFuck you jim.
>>2256054>Stockholm syndrome is real.its double dutch stockholm syndrome bud, society isn't real, in nature the shit workers get eaten most of the time>>2255810>People hate unions for the same reasons people hate cops. no accountability. If they could handle their own, beat the mongloids with a sock full of doorknobs in a dark room, shit would honestly be betterultra based
>>2256297I likeyour spacing>You seem to think they do the 'bare minimum' instead of sleep for 8 hours then get OT for punting their jobs back to the queue, or maybe they do go out and they just fuck everything up worse.You seem to be confusing unions enforcing the agreed upon contract with lazy management doing nothing. Have you worked a day in your life?
>>2248261non-union has the advantage of individual bargaining.I don't want to be union because I am not intending to stay in the trade but if you just want to slam out work union is great. non-union offers flexibility to the smart and wise. union doesn't and you have to bind to the will of the union.>Can you negotiate a better deal?the best thing is to keep a healthy mind and a healthy respect for both.most large corporations are forced to unionize because individual bargaining becomes a problem for the workers when they are against a large conglomeration like amazon. for smaller companies it isn't as much an issue.from a costumer perspective,use union when:>large task, job, order.>repetitive and relatively unskilled>quality-quantity assurance is neededuse non-union when:>need able-experience>small job that requires the use of a lot of critical skills>need a job performed in a way a union is unwilling to>alternative to unions that are abusive/hostilefor a company they always prefer non-union.for a worker: union:>when trade for life.>when need help negotiating.>benefits of social security.non-union:>want experience.>can negotiate a better deal.>have your own security.
>>2256353The management did fire him and the union got hi job back. Thanks for playing shitlord. You got one member his job back two more fired
>>2256368>and the union got hi job back.You realize this means management was too lazy to fire him according to the agreement. How hard is it for management to not fuck up?
>>2256372Somehow a DUI isnt a class 1 safety violation. I guess we should have just beat him with the sack of door knobs.Keep defending the sponges 80 iq piece of shit
>>2256377>Somehow a DUI isnt a class 1 safety violation.All the company had to do is exactly what the company agreed to do but in your mind it's the union's fault for holding them to their word. If they didn't fuck up the termination so bad, the union wouldn't have any ability to interfere.
>>2256377A union can only act as a lawyer and make sure the t's are crossed and the i's are dotted. Termination procedures are established beforehand and must be followed. No union can save you if the managers actually do it right. A sad fact is that managers rarely do it right. They generally don't even care enough to try to begin with for that matter. Another sad fact is that union stewards/business reps are not trained lawyers. They're just random blue collar people off the floor that are voted in. If your company falters against the keen legal mind of a random blue collar worker then it is fully on them.
>>2256395T. Wants to work with a drunk man th as t gets him firedThank you based brother
>>2256419>Thank you based brotherWhy would you work for a company so incompetent they can't even fire a drunk? No offense, but your companies white collar staff seems utterly useless.
>>2248261Because unions are for lazy boomers and gay communists
Better drugs and no HR roasties non union plus none of my paycheck goes to democrats
>>2255255>no argument, just attack Jews Hypocrite
>>2256419Every drunk and druggie gets sent to rehab successfully here (including a high level boss, who ended up being busted down to the floor) and those who don't make it through the random piss testing probation of a year have all been terminated. I'm sorry your company is so extremely incompetent that the bosses can't follow a simple flow chart.
>>2256735Damn they make you shill on Saturday too?
RTW states killed their local unions.I'm in a blue state, and our unions are hanging on by a bare thread. At least there's a coalition between different trades to get greater leverage over projects. My union is essentially run by the largest NECA contractors, where they employ a puppet business manager who """represents""" our labor. Almost half the leadership/executive board are still superintendents with said NECA contractors.
>>2248261I used to be in a union then I realized that I could make more money working non-union jobs.I don't pay union dues or anything.If the company slights me I still put in a complaint through the union and the union will cover for me.Paying dues is a scam when you receive all the benefits at none of the cost.
How do you get skilled in trades without being a union bitch though? No offense to unions but I find the pension system is a straight up fraud if you are under 35. I'd like to get into some skilled maintenance gig with robotics shit but I'd figure you'd need some electrician skills/hands on trade skills to have a chance at it. If not that I wouldn't mind some plumbing/HVAC shit since nonunion is bigger there. I look at carpenters union and they seem to get fucked in the ass for pay against electrician unions. Do you just join a union and be their fuckboy to get experience then when you are confident you land some nonunion gig and tell them to fuck off?
>>2256875What? Just apply for any non union trade company to get experience. You'll probably get better experience in the non union job. They just won't send you to school like the union does
>join texas union >earn four dollars less than non-union apprentices with similar experience >but muh pension>the worst leadership I've ever seen in my life >some of the most slack jawed braindead niggers I've ever encountered >huge egos because they know they can't be fired Fuck the union, what an absolute joke. I left after 3 months and never looked back.
>>2248261While I'm pro union, some unions are a fucking nightmare to deal with. Lawyers who don't know shit about investigative process sending letters and demands that aren't enforceable and saying shit that actually damages their clients case
From a hvac worker the best difference is that union workers are usually put on larger tasks like industrial shit. But nonunion workers are usually like the local fellas on your tv channels you know? More residential work phone by them they do repairs in your home.and the union they aren't in and forgot need his money because he's being paid well by the local guys my first job out of college with 'll my certifications I was getting paid 20/hr to do simple maintenance i never joined a union and I don't know the pay maybe it's better. I did amount college and my parents covered all college fees. But total of college was maybe 20grand. And it's paid off.
>>2257142Bro this shit is impossible to read, I think the hvac fumes are going to your head.
>>2257142What the fuck did you just type nigger
>>2249106My union dues are $800 annually but in exchange I get full medical and dental so I'm more than happy with that deal.
>>2248272I made more on my first day at a union than my last day after 4 years working the same non-union gig. Besides pay, here the other differences:>guaranteed 40>Saturday’s optional >weather breaks >they actually follow safety regs so nobody dies or gets hurt >always work downtown so we don’t have to drive 2 hours every day unpaid>everyone was white >free coffee when it was freezing cold The only people who dislike unions are cringe boomers these days.
>>2257754its okay anon, youre gonna be a brain dead monkey, cog in the machine, for the rest of your life.
>>2257757It depends on the trade retard. When it comes to ironworking in my area you would have to be fucking retarded not to go union. They get the best jobs, the best pay, the best benefits, and they don’t hire the illegals and niggers who’re dumb enough to work for 15$/hr. It’s a demanding dangerous job that requires a lot of experience and I will get paid well with excellent medical or I’m not working. go suck some corporate dick. (This does not apply to all unions in all areas)
>>2257769Exactly. It all depends on your local...
>>2257757>youre gonna be a brain dead monkey, cog in the machine, for the rest of your life.What the fuck does that mean in English you spergtard? Work is for money not spiritual wank. Everything is about money so get fucking paid and get that vested retirement (which is serious money over time). You serve customers either way.
>>2258476>What the fuck does that mean in English you spergtard?I spoke in english but I'll dumb it down for you bubbarelegating yourself to being a braindead laborer is to become a cog in the machine forever, a union is good for you. The people actually driving business and bringing the money in however will always be seperate from your monkey hands, and actually serious money over time will always be out of your reach unless you get lucky with trading or the lottery. desu if you had any talent cognitively you'd already know all of this, again, its good you have a union to protect your retarded ass
legit good Union trade jobs are getting very rare.you gotta be friends with someone high enough up in a company that in turn has a lock on some Govt contract gig, or very good at your job AND lucky. I know a Sparky who got in with a company that does Govt subsidized solar and he makes good money with lots of overtime but has to travel most weeks.In general ALL the trades are getting flooded not just with Mexicans but Chinese, Russians, Muslims, etc, and its dog eat dog.2/3 of Union workers are getting fucked on wages one way or another by being pressured into claiming less hours than actually worked or one of 101 other ways.Buddy had steady work in Carpenter's Union but had to travel all the fuck over N Calif on his own dime. Getting up at 1am to drive 300miles to start work at 6am. Had his truck stolen 2x at cheap motels and broken into about 6x on overnights (he had to pay for motel and gas, etc).Employers don't care about Vaxx but Unions are now forcing new Apprentices to get Vaxx to complete or attend required training.Unions have become anti-Worker and are dying but they don't care because all the Union bosses have golden parachutes, and will get jobs in the DNC machine.
>>2258973What in the fuck kind of dogshit union is that? Lord almighty
Bum ass union pieces of shit ruin every job site
>>2249544>I'm not sure which one is more soul sucking.I worked a factory job for a couple months between IT jobs. I'll take an air conditioned office and an Aeron chair anyday over that unheated warehouse/factory in winter. Those fucks at Telco Technologies were so cheap they couldnt even get us all buckets to sit on let alone stools or chairs
AUAN (All Unionites Are Niggers)
>>2250470>liking the pedo bill clinton or his corpse like policy makingeverything about you is annoyingly obtuse
Fuck all union niggers.
>>2255716>Today bigcorps have far more power nationally and local organized crime is feeble.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Gsz7Gu6agA
Is there a waiting period for health insurance for when I join IBEW? I just applied, but I turn 26 in March and lose my parents' coverage.
>>2248272>paying lazy bossmen who do nothing but tell you how to vote against your interestsno thanks, enjoy your brotherhood orgies though
>>2250333Only time I've seen someone almost get fired is when a guy showed up drunk and failed a breathalyzer at like 10am after a 6am start time. He got company alcohol dependency counseling and retired immediately after completing it. He was a bit of an odd situation though. He had almost died the day before when he blew up a 4kv breaker with no bomb suit on, walked away with no serious injuries and came back the next day; making it a non-OSHA recordable.>someone almost get fired>and retired immediately afterThis is why modern unions are a joke and their paypig members are laughable
>>2252674What stops unions from getting together and starting their own companies
>>2261189They're too lazy to work
>>2261189>What stops unions from getting together and starting their own companiesSignatory companies would bail if unions went that direction. Not only is it an obvious conflict of interest but it also deliberately attacks the contractors working with unions. Working together is often more successful than being cutthroat and predatory. Whodathunk.Union employees on the other hand make their own companies all the time and often end up hiring union workers. For example, IBEW workers can start single van electrical companies and blossom into a larger business. Many companies are run by people who went through the apprenticeship and worked as a journeyman before becoming the boss.It isn't unusual to report to a company ran by someone you knew when they were a journeyman. However, I can't imagine a union with the spare resources to bid work and carry a bond. If a union can, their dues are way too high.
>>2261258>Signatory companies would bail if unions went that directionThe point would be there are no more signatory companies. Unions would go on their own entirely but they can't because they're communist leeches at their core
>>2261260>The point would be there are no more signatory companies.The intent isn't to seize the means of production, never was. That would be socialist. >they're communist leeches at their coreTell me the one about avocado toast, grandpa, I like that one.>Unions would go on their own entirely but they can'tBecause that wouldn't be a union. That is just a contractor. You are describing a nonunion contractor. They already exist. It isn't new or intangible. Unlike your communist nemesis, non union contractors are real. Did you not know this?
>>2261266You're not capable of grasping this, maybe part of being in the union is you can only be introduced to new concepts by your FinDomBossInstead of being leeches who attempt to use your brotherhood to strangle legitimate business owners, become the businesses. Why should the FinDomHood of Electrical Workers sully their fragile hands working for a company they have less control over when they can simply start their own companies under the FinDomHood of Paypigs banner?Don't have Steve's Electrical Service, have Union Electric. But that comes with actually competing with the rest of the businesses rather than legislative strangling and coercion
>>2261271>seize the means of production>no no no no dont actually do that holy shit man you'll bring this all down on our heads
>>2261278>seize the means of production>by competing like every other business do paypigs really?
>>2261271>You're not capable of grasping this,Honestly, that's my assessment of you. Which is why I have to repeat myself. >Don't have Steve's Electrical Service, have Union Electric.The word "union" isn't a magical incantation that brings middle class out of the pits of darkness through magic. Companies without union involvement take care of contracts and enforcement. If a union becomes a company and it continues to make and enforce the contract, it isn't a union. It's a company. Without a union. Nonunion.>>2261266>You are describing a nonunion contractor.
>>2261293>If a union becomes a company and it continues to make and enforce the contract, it isn't a union. It's a company. Without a union. Nonunion.Yup, you are incapable of grasping the concept>If a union becomes a company It's a company Without a unionThis is the power of paypigs. You're incapable of comprehending anything but leeching off of companies
>>2261294Your question boils down to you wondering why unions don't just become nonunion shops. How do you imagine things would be different if a nonunion shop had "union" in their name?
>>2261295>Your question boils down to you wondering why unions don't just become nonunion shopsNo, that's your interpretation of the question>How do you imagine things would be different if a nonunion shop had "union" in their name?>nonunionYou're so dumb of course you're union. It wouldn't be a nonunion shop, it would be a singular business entity that the union paypigs all work for rather than being a sprawling entity that fingerfucks other established businesses. Instead of having the Brotherhood of Electrical Workers that harass employers, they all form Brotherhood of Electric Workers Electric Company. However this concept is entirely beyond you because it doesn't involve being a separate leech entity on an established business. It would force you to compete with regular businesses who have to do all the things not related to dealing with whiny paypigs
>>2261298>It wouldn't be a nonunion shop>it would be a singular business entity that the union paypigs all work for rather than being a sprawling entity that fingerfucks other established businessesThat's literally a nonunion shop. Think about your argument. You are not being clever, you are being dense.
>>2261301>If the entire union of workers worked for the same company suddenly it's not a unionYou seem to be conflating the words 'nonunion shop' with 'business'.
>>2261304A union doesn't bid work, it provides manpower.There is already a business model that takes care of bidding work and managing manpower. Can you guess what it's called? I'll give you a hint. You already know the answer.
>>2261305>A union doesn't bid work, it provides manpower.That's the point. The union doesn't have to actually compete on the same levels of actual businesses. They use that extra leeway to leverage in to the government and force their manpower to be used. You force out non-union businesses who have to spend time and resources doing things like maintaining a business. You are communists. Look at the ports in California for an example of how unions use the guns of government to fuck not only legitimate businesses but the entire country.
>>2261310>You are communists.>For not seizing the means of productionYour imaginary tale is as captivating as your inability to understand the words you are using.
>>2261312Right back at ya>compete like every other business that isn't able to have an office building full of government lobbyists forcing them to be hired>seizing the means of production
>>2261315>Negotiating an agreement based on monetary exchange, the hallmark of capitalism, is communismneato.>compete like every other business that isn't able to have an office building full of government lobbyists forcing them to be hiredYou might want to look into whatever you are imagining to be true. I was going to ask if you were being critical of prevailing wage jobs or PLA's but I realized it doesn't matter. Either way, you are laughably wrong.The reason nonunion companies avoid prevailing wage jobs isn't because they are excluded from the bidding process. It is because their worker will want to keep making that wage on the next job even if it isn't prevailing wage. A Project Labor Agreement sets the minimum standards and pay for the workers. Again, this is only a problem for nonunion contractors who want their worker to go back to working without the higher standards.Nonunion companies aren't excluded, they have to pay the same as union companies. I can't pretend with you that it's a "disadvantage".
>>2261328At the end of the day you'll pay your dues and vote for who you're told to
>>2261332>At the end of the day you'll pay your duesOf course. I like the benefits.>and vote for who you're told toI vote however I want. Your imagination is wild.
>>2261271So what business do you run and how would such a fantasy keep from being destroyed by competition teaming up and blacklisting them? Children are hilarious.
>>2261343>keep from being destroyed by competition teaming up and blacklisting them?See, union brains are so soft they can't even comprehend the idea of competing fairly without the big dick of government on their shoulder
>>2261345You didn't answer the question, larper.
>>2261185Nice b8 m8
>>2261354what an architect, wow
>>2248272Former non-union skilled laborer here. I've been on both union and non-union jobs. >What is the advantage to working non-union?>As a worker? Literally nothing.I got prevailing wage when doing work for Army Corps of Engineers. lol Didn't even have to join that union. But you're right. Everyone stating you'll never move up is an appeal to idiocy. Not everyone is going to be an astronaut. Not everyone is going to move up because the world needs worker bees. You'll pick that up pretty quickly depending on the place of employment. Personally, i've never NOT moved up in any job except 1 where it was family run and by that I mean only family was ever promoted. They gave bonuses like a motherfucker but it was also the owners worst quality: "just throw money at it." Probably a closet democrat. Objectively:unions were ONCE good market tools and should still be. Today they're just too politicized and are wholly owned by democrats. Public sector unions should be neutered from making any and all contributions to any fund, person, group, activity or otherwise but other than that should be disbanded. No one should be able to use taxpayer dollars to donate to political activities or candidates. Unions failed the day that one guy said, "hey, you guys go to work and i'll stay over here to make phone calls." It was all downhill after that.If we agree that people ruin just about everything that looks good on paper then you have to agree that people have ruined unions.
>>2262273I could agree that workers should have expert negotiators, and they can have more power to negotiate if they can organize work stoppage.Like any average worker has no idea what his skill is worth. Culture, at least in the Us tries to enforce this. I've worked in shops where they say you can nbn discuss your pay with others because they're fucking random workers.The company buring department is an expert at negotiating. They're hired to do this they do it all day. Your worker only changes jobs every couple years. Some guys only change every 10 years. They only have bargaining experience those 4 or 5 times.
>>2248272>we don't pay out mechanics enough and aren't competitive with our wages >we want to raise the pay of the mechanics >union says that's OK but the union members have to vote on it>union members vote to not raise the wage of the mechanics because all the other wagies want a raise too>machine operators are already highly paid >can't give everyone a raise >mechanics still underpaied >still understaffed >can't hire anyone when we have the worse pay >have to hire desperate rejects that just point out or quit in 2 weeks anyways Only union shop I ever worked. It was shit.
IBEW Local 134 is super hard to get into. Most admitted apprentices are like 24 or older with experience in the field.
>>2248272Democrats are dumping unions like a hot rock. Havent delivered on a promise in decades. Unions need to ratchet up on the organizing and start their own party.
>>2263017Get a rec letter. From who it doesn't matter. My mom wrote one posing as her boss.
>>2262964Really? In the trades you're free to pay over scale, most just don't
>>2263029You keep saying this and everyone keeps telling you.youre full of shit
>>2263125>You keep saying this and everyone keeps telling you.youre full of shitBut you're wrong and dumb. People negotiate way more than just higher pay in my local. Paid vacation days, company vehicle and gas card, or even a construction parking pass that makes city parking a breeze. One guy negotiated a company paid internet hotspot that he was allowed to take home. Just because you wet yourself when talking to management it doesn't mean we all fear our employer.
>be in union>pay into the union >they barter with your bosd for constant salary raises>they can protect you from getting fired>can call for a strike to improve working conditions/pay>during strike, pays you like 60% of your pay, depending on the size of your union.
vaccine requirement is the #1 reason I'm not bothering to apply
my union just taxes us and provides us with nothing.can't get a job if you're not in the union, can't get the union to do anything for you.It's just a labour cartel that taxes workers
>>2264407Also this, our union fucked vaccinated workers, and being politically reactive fucks a random group from time to time.If they have to fuck workers to continue being permited to tax them, they'll do it
>>2263029They weren't tradies. They were mechanics at a unionized dairy making yogurt.
>>2264733>They weren't tradesmen, instead they were tradesmen.Oh, that clears it up...
>>2248302this is all I care about
>all these union leechesTrump 2024
>>2248261I'm not in my union because I don't have highschool or equivalent, nor am I willing to go and waste my fucking time to prove to some old farts that I've got the ability to communicate in clear english. They want people, but they want to be picky about who and how.
>>2257754>actually follow safety regs so nobody dies or gets hurtFresh from Beijing?
>>2264733>Mechanics aren't trade workersWelder and Carpenter here to tell you to go fuck yourself. The gear heads are just as valuable as the rest of us.
>>2248730>Why do companies that pay their workers less have more moneyIn terms of human labour cheaper almost universally means lower quality
I wish for guilds + guild academies>join builders guild>learn carpentry, welding, concrete etc>also offer architectural, civil, and structural engineering if you have the aptitude>academy virtually guarantees you employment at a guild affiliated company>more skilled labor force>better job security>better pay
>>2265225>couldn't even finish highschooltrust me anon, they don't want GED or diploma to show you can fucking speak english
>>2249242well, that's what negotiation is for. And if they say no, it's no sweat.i mean, if you don't have "good" insurance, workmans comp or retirement you're pretty fucked when you eventually get hurt. Independent contracting is a young man's game.
>>2250470>HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHHAHAAHHA OH GOD, DO YOU BELIVE HAT HORSESHIT? unions and especially their management are full of fuckup women in admin. its all office politics and the bullshit that entails.this is what non-union workers in the south actually believe.
>>2265929I work at a big union. It absolutely is. It's the only way the company can retain equal opportunity employer shit.99.9% of the workers are men because they have to do shit.All of the office people have to be women just to get the company to approach 50/50
>>2248272holy shiti didnt expect to find wisdom up in here
>>2261310yes it doesit has to prove it provides. unlike the companies the workers work for - all they need is hungry people to kick arounda union is the power of standing together. it s just that simple. that is its basic refutation of oligarcical hegemonical despotic capitalism. if we refuse the illusion that someone else should be valued less than us - we all move up.Lets all fucking move up.
>>2265225dude shut the fuck up you think demonstrating you arent an idiot is a problem?do you know how many idiots are out there?but yeah, if some one asked me to prove i wasnt an idiot id tell the to go fuck themselves.butif a union i thought could be viable and valuable asked that of me - id tell them as articulately as i could why i disagreed and then hoe they could fuck themselves. this demonstrates your capabilities clearly, advocates a progressive agenda, and tells them to go fuck themselves.high road bro.
>>2265994Shut the fuck up commie
>>2248261Making more money, not having to jump through ridiculous hoops constantly, able to quit and work somewhere else when I feel like it, able to be self-employed, not having my retirement money tied up in a pension that some corrupt union will gamble away. Don't get me wrong, there's plenty of scummy contractors out there who take advantage of non-union guys and the union is great if you just want to coast through the tradie life, but for guys with some business sense it's more beneficial to work non-union.
>>2251459That is a lie. the base pay is the minimum. I joined on as an apprentice steamfitter from being a facility manager. i negotiated more pay than the 1st years.
>>2251165Then go take the journeyman test. if you fail, you don't get to be paid journeyman wages. you can do 4-5 years apprenticeship without paying the cost of trade school up front. the union dues are only 20 dollars a week starting as an apprentice. that's beer money. in return you get a stable job, benefits and consistent training.
>>2266133Being statted higher up.the pay scale doesnt change the mac pay for your job title
>>2266124>but for guys with some business sense it's more beneficial to work non-union.>Don't start your own business if you're a worker class. know your place.>Union bad, worker. Know your place.I think a person with business sense should be running a business, not just propping up an owner without the same skills.Do you think workers earning low wages typical in right to work states can earn the necessary liquid capital to start their own company? Or is that just another way to remind them where they belong?
>>2266140>Being statted higher up.the pay scale doesnt change the mac pay for your job titleMaybe you can educate us about this max cap. I've seen where there is a cap where employers are no longer REQUIRED to give raises, but I am unfamiliar with any union forcing companies to NOT give raises, A link to the union contract would be appreciated, I've just never seen it before.
>>2266145Max pay is max pay. Company can't even give you more than one unscheduled raise up the scale. Per yearIf someone is hired above their pay rate, then everyone else in that local gets their pay raised to his as the minimum, thus ensuring the company never hired anyone off the schedule.Everyone in the union would fucking lose their minds hearing someone was paid more like that, why the fuck do you keep saying 'well ackshilly the union only specifies a minimum' when no where in history has a company.paid more than the agreed rates.
>>2266158Care to post the entire link?
>>2266161Article 8. - Union Activity on Company Premises SECTION 1. Neither the Union nor the Locals, their representatives or members, shall conduct Union business or carry on Union activities on Company premises or on Company time, except that Union and Local members who are employees (and authorized representatives of the Union who are not employees of the Company, by mutual agreement of the Company and the Union) may solicit members and carry on other legitimate Union activities outside of working periods in space where no Company operations or administrative work is performed; provided that such solicitation or other legitimate Union activity shall be limited to small groups of employees and shall not interfere with the operation of the Company or the use of space by other persons or employees for the purposes for which the space is intended. Well, now I've seen one. Thank you. I can no longer say contracts like that don't exist, but it seems irrelevant. You aren't getting a raise when a company won't give you a raise. I'm assuming you realize who put that anti raise part in there. It wasn't the union screaming and clamoring to prohibit job stewards and not have raises. Since the company deliberately negotiated the anti raise section in your contract, it seems silly to pretend they did that hoping to still give raises to you.I didn't realize Verizon finally stopped closing shops to prevent unionization. I dislike them slightly less now. It's good to learn something everyday.TL/DR:You are right about such a contract existing, I am wrong. Moot point since the contractor blocking raises didn't block raises just to give you one.
>>2266158>well ackshilly the union only specifies a minimum' when no where in history has a company.paid more than the agreed rates.wrong faggotim in the only "strong" union city left in the US and nearly every union i know doesn't give a fuck if you get paid overscale. im paid 10% over scale right now. ive been on jobs as a helper and i got paid full journeyman scale. ive even worked with a guy who was paid 128 dollars an hour, and he showed me his check stub because the company said there was NO WAY THEY COULD PAY ME OVERSCALE and he just laughed at me and pulled up his check stubs on his phone. union worker get paid more and have better benefits in general. i haven't seen a situation where non union is better than union.
Every Union is different. I’m an electrician. Where I’m at non union electricians make $20-$25 per hour (plus paying for your benefits and buying your own power tools, etc. Union scale here is $36 per hour. It just makes sense to be union here (unless I one day opened my own business but still would prob stay Union due to retirement and (bullshit Democrat propaganda aside) I actually like the union. Still will never vote blue though, fuck that.
>>2266196Thanks for denying my experience for the last 2 months comrade
>>2248261not an amerilard, but let me tell you>Why isn't every tradie in their respective union?i hate our unionsThey are peak nu commy faggots, pure blodded bootlickers of the system that lobby for the electric car, not realizing this will kill off 3/4 of the workplaces they are paid to represent
>>2266239ah yes union lobbyingthe most powerful and dangerous lobbyists in the world. far wealthier and more powerful than all the multinational corps
>>2266244>take a cut of the workers pay you represent>do anything in your might to eradicate his profession from the job market
>>2262273>unions were ONCE good market tools and should still be. Today they're just too politicized and are wholly owned by democrats.>Public sector unions should be neutered from making any and all contributions to any fund, person, group, activity or otherwise but other than that should be disbanded. No one should be able to use taxpayer dollars to donate to political activities or candidates.>>2248360>Unions are trash these days and work with the suits because they are run by suits. Used to be that unions were managed by guys who worked the jobs, nowadays you need a college degree to get involved. Also I don't like when unions take stances on issues that have nothing to do with labourers rights. I don't give a shit about fags or BLM or democracy.>>2249141>my dues are going to fake gay political bullshit and lining the pockets of fat mullatress communications majors. I've been meaning to go to meetings more regularly, but I'm not optimistic about the trajectory of things.>>2255378>Unions in jurisdictions that don't require participation tend to be great, because the alternative is people not paying dues. Unions in jurisdictions that require participation tend to be lazy rent seekers incapable of providing value anywhere near the dues they collect.Commie fags have no answers to any of these posts
>>2266247>>do anything in your might to eradicate his profession from the job marketpost an exampleand corpos openly want to take the biggest chunk of flesh from you and eradicate you and your job from the market
>>2266251if you're a member of a union, you are entitled to viewing the finances of the unionin my entire union the only political contributions made are from fundraisers and merchandise sales. none of my dues go to political lobbyingsame goes for many trade unions>if unions were valuable people would just give them money oksure everything should be free right. if they had value people would just donate right?you do know unions are obligated to defend nonmembers.i dont get the mentality. why dont you want better pay and benefits. do you really love sucking musky fat jew cock that much?if you aren't an independent contractor, i guarantee i can find you a much better union job than any spic infested non union job you found
>>2266254>be "laborers" union>shill for the electric car>celebrate the ban of new ICE vehicles by year 2030>entire regions job market are precision manufactured ICE and gearbox parts, crank, piston, rings, cams you name it>all this gets replaced by a single robot winding and assembling coilsthe part about electric cars being less mechanical complex is obviously terrible for the industry/region behind those parts
>>2266235>Thanks for denying my experience for the last 2 months comradeSo your union hated receiving extra dues so much and hated raises so much they put that language in there? Neato. You are a liar if that really is what you are arguing. It's idiotic. Unions are either money hungry or hate money, pick a lane.
>>2266297>aflcio rep cant even readNot surprising.
>>2266305>Not surprising.You expect people to believe it's not Verizon that is keeping you from getting raises. We are supposed to believe you'd be getting a raise but Verizon is blocked by a union that hates better wages. Your nonsense is easy to read, impossible to believe.
>>2266280We should go back to coal, steam locomotives and horse drawn wagons too, right? Rather than retaining a work force to assemble and support electric motors...
>>2266227>Still will never vote blue though, fuck that.Party affiliation and frequency of voting can be public record, but not your actual vote. When a local has a bunch of registered voters that vote every time, politicians take notice. I hope you still vote for someone. Nobody is allowed to know if it's for the other guy.
>>2266317you fucking retard, its the unions sole job to keep these jobs secure. you think the coal miners union does lobby work for windpower cause muh climate change?
>>2266142Yes. You don't need tons of money to start a trade business. At least for electricians.
>>2266227$20-25 as a journeyman? The fuck lol
>>2266142>Do you think workers earning low wages typical in right to work states can earn the necessary liquid capital to start their own company?it really doesn't take much to get started in the trades. a truck and some tools will set you back less than $10k.
>>2266555>$20-25 as a journeyman? The fuck lol$36 for union could be Michigan or Indiana.Union wages in Pensacola, Florida are $24.48. Per hour. For electrical. Union. "career".Anti union "right to work" states don't offer wages like San Jose:>Sorry for the caps lock, copy and pasted from http://where2bro.com/where_to_goSCALE = $75.17 DEFINED & CONTRIBUTION PENSION ($20.90)H&W = $15.29 (health and welfare, this pays for your medical insurance)or San Fransisco:SCALE = $80.00DEFINED ($12.02) & CONTRIBUTION PENSION ($8.50)H&W = $17.23or San Mateo:SCALE = $70.00CONTRIBUTION PENSION ($19.00)H&W = $16.57I'm sure non union can totally negotiate better wages than the ones earned in union strongholds, but I don't hold my breath.
>>2266590Yeah, but that san Francisco waye equates to like 20 an hour due to CoL
unions are fer commies and i ain't no commie
>>2266718>due to CoLTravelers from my local seem to manage. Few come back willingly. But hey, sour grapes, right?
>>2266752Enjoy your designated shitting street
>>2266741unions made americatry reading a book sometimes
>>2266781unions made the entire civilized world*the belief that working conditions shouldn't be terrible is what made the difference, these days however unions arent about working conditions much as they are cronyistic for profit bureaucracys on the side.You know who needs unions these days? the chinese, the indians, africa, fucking every south east asian country would be heavenly if the people had any self respect. People in the west 99% of the time have it so much better than the majority of people in the world. what do our unions do? they argue for us collectively that we dont have enough extraneous luxury bucks for the amount of work we do, or at least thats what we say while still living like kings.
>>2266804TruuueKill the unions here in the western world so we can slip back into the dark ages like the chinks!There is no way a faceless corporation would take advantage of you, if given the chance!
>>2266804>>2266818oknow we have some dialoguenow lets stop our children shooting each otherand maybe we have a future
>>2266820>now lets stop our children shooting each other>and maybe we have a futureOnly seems to happen where guns are generally prohibited. If we avoid those designated victimization areas, we'll all be fine. It's stupid that gun ranges are safer than schools. Imagine going back to the frequency of school shootings when schools weren't designated gun free zones. Before Columbine.>>2266804>You know who needs unions these days? the chinese, the indians, africa, fucking every south east asian countryAre there any "heavenly" countries where collective bargaining has never been allowed? Asking for a friend.
>>2266138Dude, what part of 16 hours a week did you not understand? What part of there's no reason to go to bullshit union school for four years when there are private schools you can pay cash and learn the entire trade in 1 year? Or fuck that, even better, go to a public college and get a decent education for a fraction of the private school cost and still be a better candidate than 90% of the students in a union school. I guess I can kind of understand the appreciation, but they select for docile people and haze you until you've completely lost your own identity and give you a job you could have found on your own faster and cheaper. >But muh pensions!Nigger, you should have already made enough money to have bought property that one of those houses you have IS your pension.
I joined a union at work and was told if I fuck up once in the 90 day probationary period I'm fired. Messed up one weld and I was gone
>>2266925>Dude, what part of 16 hours a week did you not understand?Companies where you work are only open on weekends? Neato. My apprenticeship had more 16 hour days than 16 hour weeks. I did have one 16 hour week. It felt like a vacation.I had a classmate that routinely worked less than 40 hours a week. Yeah. We didn't stay in touch. Instead of taking a hint, he liked going full retard. He knew everything. Especially when he was provably wrong. His attitude resulted in reduced hours followed by an ineligible for rehire status with most major employers. But hey, he was in the apprenticeship to teach all the rest of us. Not to learn.I'm sure you're nothing like him. You are a victim of circumstances, that's why you didn't work all week.
>>2266925when i was 50% probationary apprentice i made well over six figures my first year and have made more every corresponding year in a union. if youre not getting hours youre a stupid faggot. construction generally is a boom and bust industry, but if youve been sitting or missing large amounts of work since about 2012 its your own fault.
>>2266946jeez that's harsh and frankly foolisha man who erred once will be more useful in the long run a man who has never errednow if you fucked up a ton of welds that'd be another thing
>>2266980>He knew everything. Especially when he was provably wrong.Do you think that your professors know everything? I was tasked with cutting pipe and used a switch for the cutter and light that ran on the same circuit. I asked the first year professor to wire it up for since I was a fresh graduate from public college. He wasn't able to do so, and he graduated from that school. Meaning. He went to that school for FOUR FUCKING YEARS and still doesn't know how to wire a two load light switch. Fuck off with your faggot blame-assigning bullshit. Unions are on their way out and about to die, and I will happily stick a fucking stake through its traitourous heart.
>>2266981>Making six figures>Earning $14 an hourGet the fuck out of here you lying ass faggot ass nigger.
>>2267211>Do you think that your professors know everything?>followed by weird rambling story that just doesn't sound... sober.Neato. I bet everybody clapped when you wired it up correctly and they gave you your final paycheck because they were afraid of your intelligence. I'm not going to ask why someone tasked with cutting pipe ended up wiring anything, had any reason to touch wires, or do anything but cut pipe as instructed, none of my business.
>>2267212>Get the fuck out of here you lying ass faggot ass nigger.Maybe he's an elevator constructor. With their normal 12 hour 5 day week schedules, it would be difficult to not hit 6 figures as a first year apprentice. Or maybe a plumber or electrician in the bay. Or maybe he works weekends too. Just because you aren't worth his wages doesn't make him a liar.
>>2267296I was a "pre-apprentice" at my local school. They had me cutting pipe, cleaning toilets, checking-in students, and being the general go-to for everything. They wanted me to do 40 hours while everyone did 20. I asked the first year professor to wire up a two-load light switch. He wasn't capable of doing so. I am, now, WITHOUT FOUR FUCKING YEARS OF BULLSHIT UNION SCHOOL EDUCATION that was demonstrably proven a failure when I asked this guy to do a simple task he should have been able to do so. I can wire it up now.
>>2267296Oh and by the way, if you think anyone is "sober" in a union, you're just shitting yourself. Literally everyone either had the prescription pill eye glaze or the weed alcohol breath.
>>2267313I've worked along side elevator mechanic helpers. They aren't making any bit more than $14 an hour.
>>2248261Not alot of unions where in my state. Also I'm not really a tradie more or a industrial tech and there is only one union factory around here.
>>2267296>I'm not going to ask>>2267344>answers incoherentlyI'm also guilty of playing dumb when a shit apprentice gives me orders. Great fun. >>2267348>Oh and by the way, if you think anyone is "sober" in a union, you're just shitting yourself. Literally everyone either had the prescription pill eye glaze or the weed alcohol breath.Jesus, this isn't an intervention. But you could use one. Wow.Drugs are easy to find on any work site but to say everyone is using... that's your coping mechanism
>>2267361>I've worked along side elevator mechanic helpers. They aren't making any bit more than $14 an hour.https://www.dir.ca.gov/OPRL/pwappwage/wage/21201250.html?VarWageId=21201250
Don't know how it is in the US but not being in a union in South Africa can often mean suicide.
>>2267376Good luck making anything when they cut your hours short. Anyone can put any rate on any piece of paper. That doesn't mean everyone is making any money. When I was working at the union school the journeymen drove pretty cheap cars and often complained about being poor. LOL. Four years for nothing.
>>2267586>Good luck making anything when they cut your hours short>>2266752>But hey, sour grapes, right?>>2267586>That doesn't mean everyone is making any moneyJust the ones worth that money. Not the ones rewiring things when they should be cutting pipe like: >>2267211 Sorry.There are real downsides. The imaginary one where everyone is secretly making $14/hr is nonsensical bullshit, but there are real reasons to think hard before taking a job as an elevator constructor. You are always traveling and the amazing rates are only mediocre when working in the bay. Eight hour shift? Fuck no, your coworkers aren't going to stare at hotel walls several hours every day for no money. The day is going to be as long as the company allows. 10 hour shifts with no weekends? You can still hit six figures with first day apprentice pay. But after 6 months, there is a raise. Oh, and weekend work. Possibly double time on Sundays. Also, since you "worked along side" totally not imaginary elevator constructors, you are aware that 12 hour days also aren't imaginary. Six figures isn't some impossible pipe dream for a first year apprentice, only an impossible dream to the guy told to cut pipe who would rather rewire shit.
I used to be in USW and they didn't do shit for mewe weren't even paid more than other non-union places in the area
>>2266261>you do know unions are obligated to defend nonmembers.Because they lobbied for that "responsibility," so they could legally justify taking money from nonmembers as well
>>2267664>taking money from nonmembersWait a minute.Doesn't that make them a member?
>>2267666It doesn't. And thats how they operate. Their faggot bullies that when you punch them square in their nose they tuck and run.
>>2267965>It doesn't. And thats how they operate. Their faggot bullies that when you punch them square in their nose they tuck and run.The people from the muggers union aren't really from a union. They were having a laugh at your expense. You should probably file a police report.
>>2255349should have busted the public sector unions desu cops and teachers unions are a net negative for society
>>2267993I did better. I took them to court. Fuck unions.
>>2268009>I did better. I took them to court. Fuck unions.Still working out the details of your story or are you just stopping there?
>>2268015Well I've just updated you on the status of it, so there's that.
>>2268038>Well I've just updated you on the status of it, so there's that.I love my union but would totally brag if I won a suit against them. There is no shame in standing up for your rights. It just seems like you aren't giving details because you didn't think that far ahead with your fake story. Like you imagined yourself dropping a microphone and walking off.>I did better. I took them to court. Fuck unions.and BAM everybody clapped.Naw, I love these stories. Shed some details. What laws were they breaking? Was there jail time?>>2267664>so they could legally justify taking money from nonmembers as wellsounds like theft.>>2267965>Their faggot bullies that when you punch them square in their nose they tuck and run.sounds like assault.How much jail time did they serve?
>>2267666no, they call the money they take from nonmembers "agency fees" they "negotiate" on behalf of nonmembers in order to make nonmembers as unattractive as possible to shops, then turn around and take money from the same guys they just fucked over
>>2268048>It just seems like you aren't giving details because you didn't think that far ahead with your fake story.It's all good. You're not getting any more.
>>2268054>nonmembers "agency fees"Without an agreement? No court ordered wage garnishment? Did they take this from you in the streets or did they rustle your cattle? How did they extract that money from you?
>>2267657>10 hour shifts with no weekends?This is the thing that most workers I have met don't understand. They will be worked until they have injury that puts them on disability. It's a scheme. I got enough experience in the field and avoided andy serious run-ins that I was able to find a job engineering job in ac and casual wear. minimal personal tool usage. paid holidays. paid time off. There are literally hundreds of thousands of employers looking to pay journey man wages for apprentice level experience. Shit you think Im leaving work at 5?
>>2268058>How did they extract that money from you?for burgerland:>Under the NLRA, you cannot be required to be a member of a union or pay it any monies as a condition of employment unless the collective bargaining agreement between your employer and your union contains a provision requiring all employees to either join the union or pay union fees.
>>2268064and in practice, every union not in a right to work state will include that provision in its collective bargaining agreement, because they may as well - they already negotiated the agreement, so why not collect more fees?
>>2268064>Under the NLRAwhich is why I said:>>2267666>Wait a minute.>Doesn't that make them a member?
>>2268071nope, doesn't necessarily make them a member from a legal standpoint, even if they're legally required to pay up
>>2268073>nope, doesn't necessarily make them a member from a legal standpointNews to me. Which local?
Seems they can't force you to pay them the "non member fee", something you haven't exactly been up front about.https://cwa-union.org/pages/security_agreements_and_agency_fee_objectionsThe non-member's fee is generally equal to the dues paid by members. Those non-member agency fee payers with conscientious religious objections to financially supporting a labor organization may arrange to make charitable contributions equal in amount to Union dues instead of paying the agency fee to the Union
So should I go union or non union?
>>2248272>Yes, you are a strong conversative man owning the libs by working in the non union shop.Majority of union workers, or what the democrats call "uneducated", voted for TrumpThe top unions leaders (Trumka) Went for BidenOH, and so did the worlds largest corporations.Lets not forget, the first couple of hours in office Biden fired thousands of union workers.almost forgot, Biden is allowing hundreds of thousands of illegals into the country... I'm sure that wont hurt the working class. I'm sure it wont drive down wages.Vote BLUE!lol retard.
Fuck unions, we need to bring back guilds.
>>2268182lol uneducated postergo get vaxxed and pozzed