Is Spider-Man a self-insert character?>really strong, but, like not TOO strong>really intelligent, but still an everyman>women fawn over him>incredibly charismatic & resourceful
>>136100081I just read about him because I think he’s funny. No self insertion here.
>>136100081he's a relatable characternot exactly the same thing
>>136100081The original Ditko version certainly was, but later on, not really. Peter has his own life struggles, friend circle and enemies. Yeah he has powers and women, but so does almost every Superhero like Batman or Superman. He just happens to have more things happening in his life that people can relate to, that's not the same as a blatant self insert.
>>136100081>Is Spider-Man a self-insert character?Not really since he has enough of a personality and clear character flaws to be his own thing. That being said that doesn't stop people from self inserting as him, hell he probably has some of the most absolutely cancerous self inserters around
>>136100081No. No sane persona would revive aunt may over mj only for may to live and extra couple of years.
>>136100402>hell he probably has some of the most absolutely cancerous self inserters aroundMost certainly.
>>136100314>The original Ditko version certainly wasno it was a self insert of dikto not us, it's his struggle, there's even rumor that peter and jonah dynamic was based on dikto and stan lee and betty being marvel's real reciptionist. even then throughout his run peter was usually really smart creating devices and traps to beat his villain, most people arent that intelligent to create tech that would stop the vulture from flying.
>>136100681slott would and im sure most of spider edititor would
There is a reason he is arguably the most popular comic book character of all time. He's a nerd (just like me!) who is actually really handsome and has awesome powers, so strong that he usually has to hold back, nearly invincible. I mean, yeah.
>>136100081he should be the down to earth superhero, your friend that you can relate to but also understand he life is completely different to you, that should be the balance
>>136100081Peter's life fucking sucks
>>136102353>implying people don't self insert as characters who are better than they actually areThat's the point of self insertion, "this character is everything i want to be/imagine myself to be if i were idealized!"
>>136102424Only because the retarded writers need it to be. Personally my headcanon is that he still has Parker Industries and uses a cool high tech suit to be Spider-Man into his older years.
>>136102353>no it was a self insert of diktatThat’s exactly what I meant
>>136102424It really, really doesn't.
>Self-insertThis shit needs to fucking stop.No. Being relatable or desirable does not make a character a self-insert. Fucking cut it out.
>>136100402>hell he probably has some of the most absolutely cancerous self inserters aroundSadly true; almost named a couple examples offhandedly but on second thought I don't want to necessarily invite something like that into the thread. Suffice it to say there are plenty of reasons to not admit you're a fan of the character.
>>136100081>>136100236This, Peter is not a self insert but just extremely relatable. Self inserts are a completely diffent thing, and for the most part western comics dont do them.
>>136100202>>136100236>>136100402>>136100681>>136102353>>136102424>>136102430>>136102457>>136102929>>136104212So in denial, if the character is a identified with fans to being someone they care about to ship with dozens of women and even crossover ships because they want to pretend Peter has the same tastes and fetishes they have as their own projection of everything they want the character to be, hes damn sure a motherfucking self insert character. Even his own writers add copious amount of OC shit onto him to graft him into a fanfiction self insert fantasy of their own violition because Peter just has to be their escapism.
>>136104505harem shit has rotted your brain
>>136104555And Spider-Man itself isnt false harem tease shit?
>>136104640No, it isn't. At most there's been love triangle shit with Gwen/Black Cat and Mary Jane
>>136104505Anon you didn't read or comprehend a goddamn thing I wrote you fucking retard>>136100402How bout you read my post again all the way through, don't skip that last fucking 3/4ths
>>136100236>>136104212Movie Peter is relatable. Comic Peter being a Stark-tier supergenius who can make a time machine out of a microwave makes no sense if he's just supposed to be an "average guy with a good heart". It's why the natural webshooters always made more sense to me. Why would a high schooler be able to create an easily-reproducible formula for artificial webbing that can both hold many times his weight AND dissolve in a few hours? And somehow no one's been able to do that before him? It just makes more sense for a SPIDER-MAN to naturally do everything that a SPIDER CAN.
>>136104710The web shooters are there to show that the MAN is just as important, if not more so, than the SPIDER. Peter is more than his powers and it's why the focus on his personal life is good.Everything that's ever been done to alter him to make him more "relatable" for secondaries like yourself is what has caused the absolute shit that is modern Spider-Man
>>136104855Why give him any powers at all, then? Why not just make him Batman with a spider theme? Peter isn't restricted from living a normal life just because he can shoot webbing out of his hands without a gadget; after all, Tobey Peter's personal life got a ton of screen time in the movies. Imagine if Garfield Spiderman saw Gwen die before his eyes, then he went "oh shit yeah, my time machine!", then went home and time travelled back so he could save her. It'd be a much more relatable story if he WASN'T capable of doing that.
>>136104686Hes shipped almost with his fellow female hero allies and friends. The motherfucker has a gallery of women who want to sleep with him because he saved them once. Its nit as blatant as wolverines and hercules, but ita always a plot point spidey gets fans excited when he teams up with hot girls not mj, hence forth fanfiction and artwork time. Example the mcu avengers endgame and apidey with the females surrounding him, they knew what they were doing.>>136104703>>136104855No man no matter how relatabke they are can do things as ingebius as Peter can, hes been linked as being almoat as brilliant as Stark and Reed and can outsmart all of his supervillain genius les and some heroes in battle. This is without tue spider powers btw. Spider-Man has a few quirks that leans him into mary sue territory.
>>136105015Hyperbole is the crux is a weak argument.And Peter having powers is what feeds into the whole "With great power there must also come great responsibility" shtick. Another change I hate that was started in Ultimate and carried through all adaptions is that Peter got his powers on a school trip. Originally it was at an exhibition HE wanted to go to because it interested him. Having him just be there because it was a school trip strips the agency away from him.> then he went "oh shit yeah, my time machine!"Why the fuck do you keep harping on about time machines. Peter has never made a time machine nor is he capable of doing so. This is why I hate arguing with you moviefags, you have no fucking idea what you're talking about then come in with these retarded takes
>>136105099You have somehow replied to me TWICE without reading the second half of my post, it's actually astounding. I know reading comprehension is at an all time low but goddamn
>>136105309You read that whole ESL, spelling mistaken riddled post and are shocked he didn't comprehend what you're talking about?
>>136105243>Why the fuck do you keep harping on about time machines. Peter has never made a time machine nor is he capable of doing so.Anon, even *I* didn't even know he made a time machine until a Death Battle shitpost someone shared a couple months ago. See the panels: it's real. Him being able to make a LITERAL time machine out of a microwave and a blender kind of threw all relatability I had for him out the window. Like, why didn't he use it to go back and stop Aunt May from getting shot so he didn't have to divorce MJ?
>>136105406I just read through it and it's basically a shitpost series by Stan. It ends with the bad guy using the time machine but ending up as a baby in the past. As far as we know it's not even canon
>>136105733Oh okay, maybe it was just VSfags stretching for feats. Still, all of THIS still sounds pretty Mary Sue-ish to me
>>136100081Literally every capeshit hero.
>>136104505>>136102441>>136102430Well done you smooth brains have the collective iq of the average inbred child. Hajime Isyama said eren character was based on him, does that make Eren a self insert? Dan Harmon pretty much based his entire character on Jeff Winger from community, "oh but that means Jeff is a self insert,", then if you think Jeff winger is a self insert you might awsell say batman and superman are self insert, because people idolized, fantasize and wanna be them or just like eren, or even jeff.Authors based their characters on THEIR experience. So your gonna get people who relate to and self insert these characters as a proxy of relating to the authors feeling. I distinctly highlighted on how Peter had high intellect because most people dont have that, I also indicated his relation with betty and Jonah to show how he doesnt have your self insert dynamic he has Dikto's dynamic. There are mainly 3 self insert charater archetype. Plain, corporate of fantasy. Bella from twilight is plain she does fuck all, being passive, boring and making basic choices. modern marvel spiderman is corporate where the author is deattached from the character and does the corporate action of seeing what they believe is relatable rather then putting their soul and personality into it.Fantasy is the hardest cos most big superheroes can be considered fantasy self insert but it depends on the writing, if it's bad and cheesy power fantasy then yes, but if it's good writing where everything is balanced with real dilemma then no especially if it's a real character that is lively and distinct from other npc personality, which i believe was what dikto did. You can self insert your self into any lower class, outsider character but you miss the point if that's all you see.
>>136105873Two pointsOne is that you should never be listening to power scaling fags, they will always make a character seem mary sue-ishThe other is that of those feats listed some are taken out of context (for example the Iron Patriot one was just Peter kicking the uni beam chest thing because he realised it was overheating due to the star shape), the rest of these were almost literally all written by Dan Slott, the man responsible for Parker Industries which we all agree was retarded.Biggest takeaway is to not go on vsbattle wiki or listen to power scaling fags, they will always take feats out of context or champion outliers that have only ever been mentioned once.
>>136100081I see him as more of a depressed friend who’s always busy Also I know his tastes, marvel has made that very clear
>>136100081Literally me.
>>136100081self inserts are for women and fagsmen and boys who grow into men take inspiration
>>136100081Image sauce
Never guessed why Spiderman never got insanely popular in Japan, the character has ALL the tropes of the average manga hero>14 yrs old>orphan raised by relatives>mid-lower class>social outcast>victim of school bullies>briliant student>tragic awareness of his mission>stoic determination the japanese tv show and the manga version are just stupid. They could have transposed the story without changing any events, and it would have been a success.
>>136100081>capeshitDEPENDING. ON. THE. WRITER. AND. ITERATION.
>>136108305>Never guessed why Spiderman never got insanely popular in Japanbut it's popular
>>136108305>the japanese tv show and the manga version are just stupid.no
>>136100081Originally he was Ditko's self-insert, because that's how Ditko envisioned making superhero characters, later writers turned him into a generic everyman dudes could self-insert to while reading the story.
>>136108305>the character has ALL the tropes of the average manga heroPeter Parker also has actual emotions, realizations, obligations and character growth. Also, serious relationships with women and a family. Shonen crowd literally cannot stomach any of that - the protag has to be a forever aloof retard stuck in a mindset of a 14 year old who's too cool for school, treating any dramatic dilemma like a chore, bleeding from nose at the sight of a girl's panties, and only becoming serious when shit concerns the Power of Friendship.It has to be an escapist fantasy of being the coolest kid in the 8th grade, because being a child is the only thought that a Japanese male's brain can associate with happiness.
>>136100081>self-insert characterNo, back then if writers wanted to appear in a comic they'd just write themselves in, instead of creating shit like I am No Starfire or that Velma show
>>136107893All superheroes are self inserts, since you are on a comicbook board and love superheroes, guess your a fag too.
>>136109128You underestimate the power of intentional character attactment wish fufillment in characters like Batman and Spider-Man when fans/writes exploit them out of their own projection, thus hes a self insert type.
>>136109098>Peter Parker also has actual emotions, realizations, obligations and character growth. Also, serious relationships with women and a family.Correction he did have these, now their simply staples and reused concepts to define unlimited self insert fanfiction with in future spiderman tales.
>>136109098seeth dipshit, arguing that shounen is generic while not seeing the irony of most superhero story being cardboard cutout of man struck with accident gain powers or skill to fight for justice with a hidden persona is the reason why you cucks will never let comic grow past it's capeshit era cos you have 0 understanding of shounen. it can be cliched like superhero but the ones written well actually understand the dynamic and theme of it's style
>>136109510>seeth dipshit, arguing that shounen is genericI didn't argue that. I argued that shonen satisfies the demand for a specific kind of escapism, while superhero stories satisfy a different demand for a different kind of escapism. I never even claimed that one is better than the other, only that shounen is more infantile, but then again an infantile work can still be well-done, engaging and inspiring. Point is - some of the slightly-less infantile elements of cape stories scare off the shounen crowd. >you cucks will never let comic grow past it's capeshit eraThey already did though.
>>136102443>get married>spend the next two weeks buried in a shallow grave with a gunshot wound from a hunting rifleOh wow
>>136100081A lot of people can relate to being a poor, down on his luck teenager that feels like the world is against them.
>>136108305Spider-Man manga was kino
I self insert as Spider-Man since we both are jewish and still poor despite that.
>>136110028Since when has Peter Parker been Jewish?
>>136109786>>you cucks will never let comic grow past it's capeshit era>They already did though.in what way? ur industry is still caged by the big two. Even if there's successful underground comic, the medium of comic is sadly not gonna evolve aslong as the big two stay dominant>shounen is more infantile>some of the slightly-less infantile elements of cape stories scare off the shounen crowd.wtf are you even on about, ur jus vague, what do you mean by infantile? The shounen genre imo has been improving, subverting and reinterpreting archetype from hunter x hunter in 2000s to chainsaw man having commentary on capitalism, human nature, peoples purpose all while using shounen archetype of the wise old man, rival, perverts, friendship, being the best etc. to deconstruct or reinterpret these themes in a new style
>>136110050Uhh, sweetheart? Comics are WAY more than superheroes now. The Walking Dead ring a bell? Maybe Saga? Hmmm?
>>136110080>in what way? ur industry is still caged by the big two. Even if there's successful underground comic, the medium of comic is sadly not gonna evolve aslong as the big two stay dominant
>>136110323Umm, sweetheart? Didn't you ever hear of Invincible or The Boys? They're like superhero comics but for ADULTS, something shonen can never be.
>>136110344>Umm, sweetheart? Didn't you ever hear of Invincible or The Boys? They're like superhero comics but for ADULTS, something shonen can never be.im sorry let me turn to the page in chainsawman with the lesbian orgy scene
>>136110050Holy shit you're defensive about your precious darling manga industry. >"How come Spider-man is not more popular in Japans?">"It's because of this">"WHAT YOU BE SAYIN' THAT MANGA SUCKS YOU SAY THAT MANGA BAD YOU SAY THAT COMIC BOOKS ARE BETTER THAN MANGA?">"No?">"WELL YOUR COMIC BOOKS ARE BAD THEY SUCK THEY ARE SHIT UNLIKE MANGA THAT IS COOL AND AWESOME AND FULL OF MEANING UNLIKE YOUR SHITTY CAPESHIT COMIC BOOKS THAT SUCK"Try a chill pill, man. >ur industry is still caged by the big twoThey dominate the market, yes. As it it is with most markets: both of your examples of shounen improvement are from Weekly Jump, ffs. It's kinda retarded to expect innovation from the stable dominating entities - they just repeat the successful formula until it's no longer successful. >wtf are you even on about, ur jus vagueThat's your autistic brain shorting out: you assumed that I attacked manga, I made a statement that doesn't actually attack manga, and you are confused by the alleged attack on manga doesn't actually attacking manga. >The shounen genre imo has been improvingYes, I know. >subverting and reinterpreting archetype ...but never actually moving beyond it. That's my point - the Japanese publishers work for the Japanese audience, and the Japanese shounen audience u straight up allergic to something that is actually divorced from the archetype, that straight up lacks it. >having commentary onI don't think DC or Marvel even released a comic without any commentary on muh capitalism or muh human condition - commentary is not a sign of quality, or maturity, or intelligence. In fact the absolute majority of the time capeshit tries to comment on serious shit it sucks, same with shounen. The point here is not whether capeshit has "better commentary" - it's that it's perspective (not necessarily commentary even) is not centred on a Naruto protagonist (Edgy Naruto, Boring Naruto, Nerd Naruto, Child Naruto, Ugly Naruto and Girl Naruto included).
>>136110411Oof, sounds pretty infantile to me.
>>136110050Shounen is not a genre, it's a demographic. When you call shounen a genre you're literally saying "the PG-13 genre" and sound like a retard
>>136110430*I don't think DC or Marvel even released a comic without any commentary on muh capitalism or muh human condition in the last 10 years
>>136100081I feel like his intelligence was overblown.To me he should be a real life scientist, who achieved his intellectual prowess through his studies and passion for science, instead of a genius like Pym or Richards. Basically a bio chemist that is extremely good in his domain, but not someone who would build a cosmic cube.On the women part, I never though they fawned over him, like yes he had multiple girlfriends but he pursued them (and I'll argue the numbers is caused both by him being a longrunner and writers inserting they ideal waif in his book). Also yes he is resourceful, but he is not charismatic at all.
>>136110411This >>136110434 desu
>>136110445you dont have to be a fucking nerd about it, it's obvious from the way he describes it he was talking about battle shounen>>136109098
>>136111146Use words properly or not at all.
>>136104505Having an absurd amount of girlfriends is common for a superhero in media due to writers always wanting to create a new dynamic and shit.Just think of any A lister and google how many girlfriends they had.
>>136110430>>"How come Spider-man is not more popular in Japans?">>"It's because of this">>"WHAT YOU BE SAYIN' THAT MANGA SUCKS YOU SAY THAT MANGA BAD YOU SAY THAT COMIC BOOKS ARE BETTER THAN MANGA?">>"No?">>"WELL YOUR COMIC BOOKS ARE BAD THEY SUCK THEY ARE SHIT UNLIKE MANGA THAT IS COOL AND AWESOME AND FULL OF MEANING UNLIKE YOUR SHITTY CAPESHIT COMIC BOOKS THAT SUCK">Try a chill pill, man.you're actually schizo, your pulling out arguments i never mentioned, like what is all this???>They dominate the market, yes. As it it is with most markets: both of your examples of shounen improvement are from Weekly JumpAgain ur awful at arguments read my stance it was comparing battle shounen and superhero, me only mentioning battle shounen was the point, it was to make point that u dont understand them, which is the reason why ur comic genre doesnt improve for modern audience, big emphasis on modern audience>>136109510>>136109786>>136110050>That's your autistic brain shorting out: you assumed that I attacked manga, I made a statement that doesn't actually attack manga, and you are confused by the alleged attack on manga doesn't actually attacking manga.no it's not, again you just described battle shounen as infantile, not explaining ur point, or what it means to be infatile and then again just like ur previous schizo thread made up the belief i though u were attacking manga? i always assumed ur talking about battle shounen1/2
>>136110430>...but never actually moving beyond it. That's my point - the Japanese publishers work for the Japanese audience, and the Japanese shounen audience u straight up allergic to something that is actually divorced from the archetype, that straight up lacks it.unpopular opinion archetypes are actually important, they define the genre, western media being soo allergic to archetype in modern day is the reason we have these shitty 4th wall, point out pop culture, marvel humor self awareness, cynical character recognizing cliche archetype narrative . Trying to be allergic to archetype is what created rick and morty or velma , stories that try hard to be meta. archetype needs to be balanced, they should be used playfully but criticised when need to even and this is what i see with good superhero and good battle shounen stories.>I don't think DC or Marvel even released a comic without any commentary on muh capitalism or muh human condition - commentary is not a sign of quality, or maturity, or intelligence. In fact the absolute majority of the time capeshit tries to comment on serious shit it sucks, same with shounen.well done you ignored the point where i said in a shounen style, you might aswell compare capeshit captalism story to romance capitalism story like great gatsby, this is what you get when you try to be soo cool with disregarding archetypes, you see every action story as the same and so you disregard the merit these genres have. 2/2
>>136111188read the room dipshit, if they're saying shounen and action we all know what it means, don't have to pull the fucking dictionary out
When did this retarded concept of a relatable character being a "self insert" begin?
>>136104640This is your brain on porn
>>136100081>Is Spider-Man a self-insert character?Yes. He's the archetypical teenage superhero, he's there for the kids to self-insert in. Didn't read the rest of the post btw.
>>136100081how can I self-insert as spider-man if I never in my life would go to a science fair?
>>136100081Dan Slott sure thought he was.Honestly editors/writers SIing into Peter or just regular projecting super hard onto him [the later also being a big problem for Batman actually as well] are a huge part of why they get fucked out of shit like getting married or having kids so often. Spider-man's particularly bad about it though.
>>136110434Nah. Anything Bastard!/Jojo has done, Anything from Watchman or The Boys
>>136111220Thank god this doesnt apply to my favs Aquaman and Ghost Rider
>>136111220New dynamics that goes as far as jissing and fucjing bitches and later on in beibg vaguely friendly or tolerant =/= New Dynamic.If a guy meats a dude and hits it off with him its different, its just a platonic if not buisness like team up, if its a woman and they team uo which leads to sex and flirting its fucking wish fufillment niches thst lead the female beibg a sex trophy and sidekick to the guy. Thus there is plenty of self insertion when portrayed for the later.
He was originally a self insert character for child readers to imagine themselvse as the superhero but he has grown from that.
>>136100081where the fuck is this image from lmao
>>136114626Im sure Spidey like all teens masturbates to hot female nudie mags and porn off screen. And he always tries as to impress people more popular than himself. Thats some to self insert as.
>>136115431>he has grown from that.No he hasnt, One More Day proves this.
>>136115436No idea, but it does remind me of how pre-retconning Peter used to be Shuklie/Colossus strong because they realized they kept giving him shitloads of crazy feats for it, decided to depower him in universe, and then went on to just have him keep doing the same crazy shit that made them put him just below the "fuck you" arbitrarily strong motherfuckers like Hulk and Thor anyway.
>>136100081Spider-Eggnog
>>136105406>Him being able to make a LITERAL time machine out of a microwave and a blender kind of threw all relatability I had for him out the window.THAT was the straw that broke the Camels back and not the numerous times he used his webs to just do anything?
>>136105733Spider-Man invention of Parker Particles darwrfs that. So Relatability is kaput reguardless.
