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In retrospect, is it really that good?
Avoid talking about the show. The board will likely become unusable from all the threads soon anyway.
No, I'm not watching it.
>>
>>132218880
>In retrospect, is it really that good?
I have to say yes, it's pretty good, especially the part where the carved up face calls out the tranny for being a man in a dress in Game of You and the fact that the Moon hates troons.
>>
>>132218880
>In retrospect, is it really that good?
Pretty good, but overrated when people tout it as "the best comic of all time"
>Avoid talking about the show. The board will likely become unusable from all the threads soon anyway.
>No, I'm not watching it.
Nobody asked.
>>
>>132218880
>In retrospect, is it really that good?
Yes, Gaiman is one of the few writers that actually know how to write good characters and give them personality.
>>132218909
>the best comic of all time
But sandman has almost no competition in his branch, that's why it has remained the king of fantasy
>>
>>132218909
>but overrated when people tout it as "the best comic of all time"
Give me a better one.
>>
>>132220339
Watchmen
>>
>>132218880
Yeah, I really like it. Something about it feels truly mythical in a way I can't quite explain.
For example, I read it mostly out of order except for the final two collections and everything still made sense to me. That's gotta count for something.
>>
>>132220608
>Watchmen
The giant squid will always drag down the comic
>>
>>132218880
On #31 rn actually, and it’s okay. I was expecting something extremely good with how people hype it up, but it’s just good. not magnificent or a masterpiece.
>>
>>132218880
>is it really that good?
Yes, if you read any of the big two comics currently, reading sandman is most likely gonna make you wonder why are you wasting your time reading those.
>>
>>132220761
Disagree.
>>132220845
>currently
Most any well-liked comic from before ten years ago reads better than a current comic.
>>
>>132220807
I'd argue that one of the things that make it work is the ending, it's a solid ending, maybe not perfect, not the best of best but it's solid. And considering how many comics and manga out there with good stories but dogshit endings are you realize why sandman will always be a solid graphic novel
>>
One of its downsides is that it's Gaiman comic and not a Gaiman and his collaborator's comic. A comic driven by its writing than its comic book storytelling.
>>
>>132220761
>hating the reason that the world is saved forever
What, would you rather it be a big blue shockwave?
>>
>>132221205
>>hating the reason that the world is saved forever
I hope you're being sarcastic, anon.
>>
>>132221205
>What, would you rather it be a big blue shockwave?
Yes, Snyder approach work better than the squid, there I said it
>>
>>132218880
Yes, it's one of the best comics.
>>
>>132221335
It's brave to admit that you're stupid, anon. Bravo.
>>
>>132220761
Snyder movie lover detected.
>>
>>132218880
Yeah, it's pretty good. Gaiman's strengths as a writer are in tone and voice, and he always does better at imaginative short stories than longer plots.
Since the comic is basically an episodic anthology with a loose overarching plot, and the rotating stable of artists means the book's heavily reliant on Gaiman unifying it all through a unique tone, it plays completely to his strengths and it works fantastically. So yeah, it's pretty damn good. I wouldn't say it's the absolute best, but it deserves a mention

has anyone watched the show yet? I'm morbidly curious
>>
>>132218880
Yes. It was overrated but that’s because its fans were nuts about it, not because it isn’t a damn good comic.
>>
>>132223251
I think it's overrated because most of the art sucks, and art is a very important aspect of comics. I will never consider a comic with poor (with the artist doing a rushjob, not using the advantages of the medium, or just plain bad art), inconsistent (read: drawn by different artists) art as a great comic.
>>
>is it really that good?
the let's call them "one-shot" issues definitely still are. the main story arcs can tumble a bit
>>
>>132218907
if those are your favourite part of sandman you need to decouple from the culture war, because you have allowed yourself to be molded by it

those two are even wrong within the text of the comic, we see Death take Wanda's soul and it's a woman
>>
>>132224425
Yeah, some of the one-shots are great.
>>
>>132218880
Eh. It's pretty good but not amazing.I find all the major story arcs and plots really unsatisfying and wasted. I didn't think it had much interesting to say with it's characters or themes to me, I didn't get much out of these stories. What I really enjoyed was the short stories which are far and away the best part of the book. The actual main character and arcs where pretty consistently uninteresting. I don't really enjoy Gaiman's prose all that much and at times he can pretty pretentious and has a very drama student vibe to his writing, I don't know how to describe it better than that. The art is horribly inconsistent, often outright terrible.
I really enjoyed Sandman as an emo teen but as an adult I've reread it twice and came away liking it less both times. I just don't get anything out of this book anymore.
>>
>>132219560
Swamp Thing is better.
>>
>>132219560
>Gaiman knows how to write good characters
This is an interesting thing to see one of my takeaways from the last time I read it was that I didn't care about any of the characters, I didn't think there was interesting or compelling about basically any of them beyond the surface.
>>
>>132225219
Same. I thought Hob Gadling was cool and should have been more prominent, though.
>>
>>132220629
Maybe because it's comprised of different myths.
>>
We never had a sandman thread before people pretend to be fans after the Netflix adaptation.
>>
>>132218880
I got the first two trades years ago and it just wasnt for me. I thought it was meh.
>>
>>132225411
Most of the short stories and one off characters are really good. If Dream had only been in 10 issues or so he'd probably turn out more interesting. I don't think Gaiman is very good at developing these characters over a long time, they make strong first impressions and then just stagnate even in times when he tries to develop them it doesn't interest me. Which I guess when dealing with immortal beings struggling with change that can be a bit intentional but it doesn't land very well for me.
>>
>>132220339
I would even say it's not the best comic that came out at that time. We also had the end of Love and Rockets volume 1, From Hell, and Cages at this time, all of which I like better.
>>
>>132225584
We've had many threads. They're mostly people calling it overrated or straight up not good, with a handful of people proclaiming it a masterpiece.
>>
>>132225724
That's ok.
>>
>>132221383
This. You got balls.
>>
>>132218880
Yes, though The Kindly Ones (the series climax basically) art style really drags it down imo.
>>
>>132218880
>is it good

yes

and the Lucifer spinoff comic by Mike Carey is also good. i would consider them both to be required /co/ reading material for anyone who considers themselves comic nerds
>>
>>132228384
I seem to have read every comic except Lucifer. I've been avoiding it because I didn't like what I read of Carey's Hellblazer.
>>
>>132227923
I actually really like the art in the Kindly Ones but it doesn't feel out of place at the point in the story. Like if one of the lighter arcs had been drawn like that it would've worked better.
>>
>>132228704
I feel exactly the same way. It wasn't the worst art in the run, but it was ill-fitting for that particular arc.
>>
>>132225527
Touche, anon.
>>
>>132224541
Seethe more troon.
No amount of revision you make will have people liking fags in dresses.
>>
>>132225219
>didn't think there was interesting or compelling about basically any of them beyond the surface.
Sandman is a slow serie, characters get developed over large parts. But more specifically what I mean is that Gaiman knows how to avoid shitty mistakes that inexperienced writers do, like writing characters that are 100% annoying mary sues, or overpower characters with no flaws. Or having characters have some dimension beyond their aesthetic. It may not be a lot, but compare Sandman with resident evil Netflix characters made by newbies writers and you will see what I'm trying to say
>>
>>132220339
My favourite comic is Nemesis the Warlock.
>>
>>132228475
Carey's Hellblazer and Lucifer aren't comparable. Lucifer is THAT good. I'd argue its better than Sandman in most apsects.
>>
>>132218880
Best Chapter?
For me, I’d say it’s Ramadan.
>>
>>132230554
>Best arc
Brief lives.
>Best Chapter
I do love me some Ramadan. But my heart always goes out to the Hob issues.
>>
>>132230554
Call me a normie, but a dream of a thousand cats.
>>
>>132230554
I still like 24 hours and the first Hob Gadling story the best.
>>
>>132218880
Yes it is.
My 70 year old dad just listened to the audio drama and has been so moved by it. The way it ties so much history and literature and myth together is epic.
>>
>>132220608
Watchmen is satire, so no.
>>
>>132230815
What?
>>
>>132230815
Interesting take. But no.
>>
Lots of long segments of boring nonsense, but the overall series is great

I think about Hob's arc and Delight's change often
>>
>>132230554
Season of mist was great, But I doubt normies understand why it's great since you need no have at least a little of previous knowledge of mythology and I know damn well that normies don't even understand the basics of mythology
>>
>>132224541
You need to decouple yourself from life.
>>
>>132231237
I read it with no understanding of mythology and it was the first arc I loved
>>
>>132230554
Three Septembers and a January
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>>132231237
Explain to me why it's good, I found it the most disappointing arc in the whole series. Waste of two great plots and nothing to show for it. If all it's got is myth references that's a waste of time too.
>>
>>132231643
>Nothing to show for it
Loki's reason for doing what he does in the Kindly ones can be traced back to SoM. It also starts Dream's self-destructive journey.
>>
>>132231643
it has a lot of setup for future events
>Dream regrets his past actions and wants to make amends for them
>Loki ends up owing Dream a favor
>Lucifer strikes out on his own (not resolved within Sandman itself but the Lucifer series is tippy-top tier)
>>
>>132231731
It affects the plot sure but as a story on it's own I get nothing out if. I don't particular enjoy those later story arcs either.
>>
>>132224360
>most of the art sucks, and art is a very important aspect of comics
The art is amazing, what the hell are you smoking?
>>
>>132231789
Set up for future stories is not interesting. I felt like Dream's whole plot with his ex in this arc was incredible underwhelming and weak and the main intrigue of what happens to hell wasn't interesting either despite the amazing premise.
>>
>>132231868
the whole plot with Nada is central to his character arc and pivotal to his development throughout the series
>>
Don't mind me
>>
>>132231885
Yeah, and it's not very well done. It falls completely flat and has no emotional impact despite it being maybe the most important thing that happens to him.
>>
I can't believe they made a manga about a minecraft speedrunner
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>>132231839
Some of it's amazing, but most of it sucks. Kieth, for example, is great, but he sucked on Sandman. The ones that were great throughout were McKean with the covers and Klein with the letters.
>>
>>132231643
>Explain to me why it's good,
Is theological soul-candy, nobody wrote an story where Lucifer just decide to fuck off and throw the key before, it may not have lot of action but is high abstract entertainment
>>
>>132231955
I'd argue that Morpheus is quite flat in his emotional expression because he's an endless, but you could start to see how he started to change little by little from that point on
>>
>>132230554
I really liked the chapter with the Funeral proper (#71), it really gives you a sense of how momentous the passing of Dream is. It's the only time other than the very beginning where you see the big cape characters show up.
It's also why Dream's appearance in the Metal event was so fucking annoying to me. It was just so clunky and lifeless in comparison to this story.
>>
>>132232259
I mean I agree the premise and early parts of Lucifer in Hell are amazing, it's the rest of the story I'm not into. You get some good moments and a great idea but it all just falls flat and is resolved in the most uninteresting and lackluster ways.
>>
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>>132232453
I forgot, it also contains this very interesting panel. One of those nightmares seems pretty similar to the story about how Bruce comes back after Final Crisis. Plus you can see that Superman dreams of himself as Clark Kent while Batman dreams of himself as Batman.
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>>132232784
I wouldn't be surprised if Morrison read this and thought "hey that's a pretty good idea"
>>
>>132230554
Best art for sure.
>>
>>132230554
Anything with my boy Hob in it
>>
I wanted to reread Sandman recently. But don't have a copy. Should I get the omnis, absolutes or deluxe editions?
>>
never read it and dont have any plans too
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>>132233683
Why not?
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>>132233657
absolute edition ends up being seven volumes (4 for main series, 3 for the extra stories). deluxe edition gives you the same in five books. omnibus edition in only three
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>>132230554
First Hob Gadling story. It's an amazing show of immortality that I don't think I saw anywhere else and I feel like this is probably the most realistic depiction of it or at least the closest one to how it would really feel like.
>>
>>132233894
Nah, I think it's a very idealistic depiction of immortality. I think such a long life would drive a man insane.
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>>132229792
>cites actual pages in the comic
>revision
What? Get your mind out of the gutter, dude.
>>
>>132233875
Quality/art/back ups & extras, which have the best?
>>
>>132233957
fortunately he can just say "welp I'm done" if he ever gets bored
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>>132218880
I thought it said the Shadman comic book and got excite.
>>
>>132218880
It's okay. It, like most of Gaiman's work, is overrated though IMO. I think a lot of people would agree if they bothered to read more of his stuff since his flaws as a writer really shine through pretty readily.
I first realized I really really didn't like him as a writer after finishing American Gods and then going back to reread Sandman and realizing how dull large parts of it was and how pointless a lot of it felt at times.
>>
>>132220339
Moore's Swamp Thing
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>>132218880
it's my favorite comic book/graphic novel/silent cartoon, easily
>>
>>132220339
Daredevil Born Again
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>>132230554
The Prez chapter.
I'm a sucker for a good Christ analog.
>>
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>>132218880
It's pretty good, but I could see it might not be for everyone.
>>
It’s like Dark Side of the Moon where if you’re young you can find a lot there compared to what’s on the radio, but looking at it later the tone of the lyrics is very simplistic in contrast to the harmonic diversity.
>>
>>132234124
>silent cartoon
What
>>
>>132235256
pictures with speech bubbles
>>
>>132225584
Why do you faggots always pretend it's impossible for the original fans to openly and loudly dislike an adaptation?
>>
>>132225584
it used to be storytimed regularly
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>>132230815
Learn what words mean before using them, you illiterate peasant.
>>
>>132235319
nta but I can see why fans (other than myself) have issues with the adaptation. There are valid reasons to hate it, and frankly invalid ones. Morpheus looking like a regular dude and lacking is twinkling pitch-black eyes is by far the biggest visual sin in the adaptation by several orders of magnitude.
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>>132235363
they completely fucked the aesthetics in general
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>>132235385
To better illustrate the issue.
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>>132234082
Can you elaborate on his flaws as a writer?
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>>132229792
>>132231324
This has to be bait
>>
>>132225584
I came to love it after Dan Dashly storytimed it. /co/, and 4chan in general, has a habit of not discussing good series when it's ended, so thats why you haven't seen it around lately.

And when threads were made about it, its those troll threads that say its overrated because encyclopedia dramatica has it listed under
>How to troll /co/
>>
>>132235410
kek they really should have animated this. I had more fun reading the comic and trying to follow with the audiobook (which doesn't sync 100% to the pages so it didn't work out)
>>
>>132235363
Why are you replying to my post as if I were the guy my post was responding to?
>>
>>132235437
I recommend listening to audiobook to hear the voices and then read the comic with those voices. Then you can read this with different voices on certain characters you think are more fitting. I for instance read Morpheus with voice of Doctor Destiny from Justice League.
>>
>>132235434
It's not trolling to say that Gaiman's Sandman is overrated as the best comic ever made, which is something people tend to claim.
>>
>>132235410
"I'm gonna put some dirt in your eye..."
>>
>>132235410
The netflix stuff just looks stiff and awkward, like a child making an 80s home video imitation of Citizen Kane.
>>
>>132233957
Only if you weren't so invulnerable you were still subject to other people's bullshit.
>>
>>132235523
And this fanfilm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kIP70LAIBI
Is still the best Sandman adaptation with FAR more accurate Morpheus. I will shill this fanfilm to the end of time after this. They deserve more recognition.
>>
>>132235666
Checked. Godspeed, anon.
>>
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>>132235385
>>132235410
>>
>>132230874
>>132230996
>>132235349
Fucking retards. Watchmen is literally satire, Moore didn't want it to be taken seriously, he was making fun of edgy superheros on the rise at the time because he wants comics to go back to smaller not corporate greed taking advantage of pretentiousness simplicity.
He literally said he found it insulting people took it seriously when the psychologist got disturbed by Rorschach when it's his job to hear stories like those everyday.
If this is the average iq of a Sandman fan thank God I stopped at issue 5.
>>
>>132235799
>he doesn't know the difference between deconstruction and satire
>has the gall to call anybody else unintelligent
kek.
>>
>>132235839
>the use of humor, irony, exaggeration, or ridicule to expose and criticize people's stupidity or vices, particularly in the context of contemporary politics and other topical issues.
If the absurdism in Watchmen alone didn't make it a satire, the showcasing of stupidity and vices of Rorschach and cold war society does. You can make the argument it's both, but it's at minimum satire.
>>
>>132235799
>>132235878
Satire requires humor. Watchmen is not a humorous story, and its goal was not meant to be a critique of contemporary superhero comics, but rather a critique/deconstruction of the superhero genre by viewing it through the lens of realism.

And it's certainly not fucking absurdist, I don't think you know what that actually means in a literary sense.
>>
>>132235385
>>
>>132235900
>Satire requires humor
Okay retard. I'm leaving now, clearly you fuck nuggets are the type of people who will move the goalpost, deflect, or outright go in denial the moment someone proves you wrong.
https://literaryterms.net/satire/
>The formal definition of satire is “the use of humor, irony, exaggeration, or ridicule to expose and criticize people’s stupidity or vices.” It’s an extremely broad category. The “or” in the definition is key – most satires are humorous, ironic, and exaggerated, but they only have to be one of these things to count as satire.
Thanks for making it so that I never read Sandman in my life, just off the fanbase alone I can tell it's more pretentious garbage for midwit retards such as yourself, like EVA.
Later losers.
>>
>>132235410
This is a fucking abortion.
>>
>>132220629
The collections themselves are out of order, somewhat.
>>
>>132218880
its pretty good but Neil is a bit twee and that can really detract from one's enjoyment depending on your mood.
Its a really captures that 80s-90s era "urban fantasy" that was popular at the time before it getting run into the ground.
wish it had a consistent art team all the way through
>>
>>132218880
>dream looking for some of his old shit
>dream goes to hell and lucifer decides to go on vacation
>Dr.Destiny in the dinner issue
after that? I really can't remember anything from the second half of the series. I remember him getting a white costume at the end and something about cats running the world
>>
>>132236127
Lucifer going on vacation actually comes well after the initial arc
>>
>>132218880
>Avoid talking about the show. The board will likely become unusable from all the threads soon anyway.
>No, I'm not watching it.
I'm on episode three. It's pretty decent. People bitched about him not being pale enough and his eyes not sparkling, but they do that basically constantly during the first episode.
>>
>>132231731
> It also starts Dream's self-destructive journey.

No, that was already happening in The Doll House when he claims Daniel. In fact, I figured out when Dream unconsciously (heh) decided to die: when he met his sister at the end of the first collection and was happy seeing her help people pass on.
>>
>>132236189
can't fool me >>132235410
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>>132234103
based but I don't think I could pick a favorite between the two
>>
>>132235666
It's more accurate but that doesn't mean it looks good.
>>
>>132218880
It's funny people forget it was set in then current DC universe.
>>
>>132236658
It's pretty easy to forget when it mostly uses random literally who side characters
>>
>>132236681
Martian Manhunter is in like the fourth issue
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>>132236681
It was DC label book till issue 47
>>
>>132236737
Though most vertigo books where DCU books from past suggested for mature readers line, but Vertigo had them remove the DCU part to fit better in line with creator owned stuff they where publishing.
>>
product of its time, but yes: a lot of it still stands up for world-building, story-telling and most definitely, the art
>>
I'm rereading it atm
I've probably read it about 4-5 times from the ages of 12 to 15
What's it like reading it as someone who is a DC fan who knows all of the obscure references?
>>
>>132236217
The sound of wings
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>>132237620
>>
Somehow Neil Gainman made a comic about a character who dwarfs Dr. Manhattan in power compelling
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>>132238248
just goes to show powerlevel wanking is for faggots
>>
>>132236767
The art is fucking incredible, even the heavily stylized angular stuff at the very end.
>>
>>132236767
>>132238591
there are plenty of places where the art is pretty heinous, particularly the first few issues with Sam Kieth before he got the ol' heave-ho for Dringenberg
>>
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Anybody who likes Sandman and hasn't read Books of Magic owes to to themselves to do so
>>
The show is better than the comic to be honest. Just look at all the depth in one image.
>>
My personal favorite arc was the Seasons of Mists. I loved seeing all the different universal forces coming together, I loved seeing dream securely in his element and it paid of the Nuada arc rather well. To me that was peak sandman even if I felt that the demon pulling that stupid stunt at the end was pretty rushed but the payoff looked nice.
>>
>>132238645
>Not liking Sam Kieth.
>>
>>132238666
we've already been over this, Satan
>>
Also the acting is way more important. It elevates the original material.

Watch the show first. Don’t listen to the chuds
>>
>>132237620
>Is this really all I get?
Oh fuck... I was young when I first read that and it really fucked me up.
It was the first time I saw that being tackled in media so it hurt.

That and Elemental Girl really messed with me.
>>
>>132238692
Why is Lucifer so fucking jowly?
>>
>>132238692
what a terrible wig

Dream getting dunked on by Lucifer only to be saved by Matthew at the end is such a hilarious misunderstanding of the original scene that it boggles my mind that Gaiman supports the series as a whole
>>
Why didn’t he think seeing a black woman was weird in a tiny pub in medieval Europe?
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>>132238722
“”””misunderstanding””””

You don’t own the material. You don’t even understand it.

Neil Gaiman confirmed its accurate and great. Fuck you.
>>
>>132238733
something something everyone sees Death how they want to see her

but not the viewers, they always see her as a black woman
>>
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>>132238753
>accurate
>Dream flounders through the reality battle and has to be fed to the final answer by an outside source
>accurate
>>
>>132238692
Where 2 find women this tall
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>>132238758
>>132238733

She’s a fucking shapeshifter you mongs. You aren’t real fans. She’s always been canonically black
>>
>>132238785
aw man did they really fuck this scene up? I haven't seen it yet but I was really hoping they did it well
>>
>>132238817
>I hoped they did this well

Bro, why didn’t you give up hope around a year ago when we knew the cast and writers
>>
>>132238753
Gaiman also doesn't own the material, DC just respects him to not do anything with it usually without asking but they could if they wanted to, people forget even though it's pretty much unrelated outside of references Sandman was meant to be reboot of Jack Kirby version of the character till Gaiman turn into his own thing.
>>
>>132238859
n-neil gaiman
>>
>>132238817
the visuals are neat BUT
>Choronzon doesn't exist, it's against Lucifer
>abandons the nightclub scene to just be in Lucifer's palace
>Dream is on the back foot constantly, no seeing the strategy and luring the other into a trap
>gets fucked by Anti-Life and doesn't know how to respond, actually starts fucking stammering
>Matthew feeds him the Hope answer after giving a shitty little Patton Oswalt speech
>>
>>132238785
I hate how modern comic adaptations remove the color from everything.
>>
>>132238880
Why didn’t you realise Neil Gaiman is going to praise the show regardless? Especially when every other character is racebent and they revised the comic story to “fix it” for present day politics

He fucking had a speaking role in the lucifer show and praised it despite it being a police procedural that was nothing like the comic
>>
>>132238677
He's great, but not on Sandman.
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>>132238994
Blame the retarded editor for making him redraw everything and not letting him just do his thing cuz she didn't like his style, I'm sure those original pages look great.
>>
>>132238991
he shat on American Gods after the fanbase started shitting on it
>>
>>132218907
lol fpbp
>>
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>>132238962
except when they add color to the wrong places, hyuk hyuk
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>>132220339
Doom Patrol
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>>132239017
Maybe. He was a beast on The Maxx only four years later.
>>
>>132239048
She was PERFECT as death. Shame they cancelled the show because the chuds control the media
>>
>>132230479
It's missing those one-off shorts that aren't part of a march to some series conclusion that elevate Sandman, though
>>
>>132238292
Dream would absolutely kick Nightmare's ass, though
>>
>>132238647
And Black Orchid
>>
>>132238733
Black people existed in Europe dude. I doubt they where many but they weren't treated as lesser yet.
>>
>>132235999
the comic came out probably before you were even born, and none of us were responsible for its creation. why should we give a fuck if you read it or not?
>>
>>132238666
>>132238692
Lucifer is trolling the forums again
>>
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>>132239021
then he called people racist for DARING to say that casting a dark-skin black girl to play Death was a bit of a miscast.

the guy's a flaming hypocrite.
>>
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>>132238860
>Sandman was meant to be reboot of Jack Kirby version of the character till Gaiman turn into his own thing.
Thank god he didn't, and we got the superior Sandman Mystery Theatre kino
>>
>>132239364
Bruh, they hung a monkey in Hartlepool, England during the napoleonic wars after a shipwreck because the locals thought it was what a french person looked like

What world do you live in where medieval Europe was some diverse modern place where race isn’t an issue?

>there were black people in Europe!

Yes.... that does NOT mean people were used to them. The average person in a pub would never ever see a black person in their life. Saying “there were black people in Europe” is as accurate as saying there are humans who visited the moon. So let’s make a documentary where random guys are walking around all the time sunbathing
>>
>>132239656
Really. I don’t know if this just American centric views that can’t understand ethnic diversity isn’t some inherent factor throughout all of history.

“Diversity” in Europe was different kinds of white people or different kinds of Christianity. At least after the final destruction of the pagans
>>
>>132235494
>It's not trolling to say that Gaiman's Sandman is overrated as the best comic ever made, which is something people tend to claim
Ok, explain why no other comic won that Nobel-like award for fantasy literature
>ib4 bu bu but prizes means nothing!
>>
>>132238791
>>132239122
I'm glad you're at least being transparent about the fact that you're spewing endless shit.
>>
>>132238647
>>132239326

FACTS
>>
>>132239771
>Ok, explain why no other comic won that Nobel-like award for fantasy literature
Because none of the others had Sandman's PR? Popularity is really the only thing that separates it from the other greats, and if you really think popularity is an indicator of higher quality, than this discussion is over.
>>
>>132239364
in that aristocratic dress?

an aristocrat in a working class bar?

come on now
>>
So, back to the comics, Destruction isn't shown as a ghostly pale person as a default, unlike the rest of the Endless. Does that indicate that his appearance is static?
>>
>>132239841
It's been forever since I read them but I more got the impression that he chose a specific appearance for himself
>>
>>132239861
That's probably it, given that he went his own way from the rest.
>>
>>132239656
Your projecting your poor American education on a entire different culture and time period that had it's own set of morals and views on race then today. It's not that they where smarter, it just things didn't get so bad yet to justify a system of power over others based on skin tone yet.
>>
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>>132239364
>I doubt they where many but they weren't treated as lesser yet.
American education, everybody.
>>
>>132239802
Why you lie? When Neil releases A Midsummer Night's Dream, Sandman was barely just making a name for itself, popularity wasn't a factor, the writing was just solid and that's a fact
>>
>>132239886
>Thinking that the medieval Europeans where all xenophobic towards just blacks when the concept of white wasn't even a thing for them yet
>>
>>132239891
You want the real answer, then? Neil Gaiman is a "real" author, not a "comic book author." People, in large, don't give a shit about comics. So, they picked the most tolerable, qualified book to pick from. He was an up-and-coming, fairly popular British writer, after all, and that was before he started in comics.
>>
>>132239941
Euros can't even tolerate varying shades of pale, you think they're going to respect black people as actual people?
>>
>>132221170
... what?
>>
>>132239686
No, white historians just did whitewash a lot to rewrite history and erase black people, in recent years it has been show that black people were present in medieval ages 50 times more than what <<<white >>> historians claimed, you are salty because you were lied your whole life
>>
>>132239986
He's saying it's a downside that Gaiman is solely responsible for it rather than him and a team.
>>
>>132239991
>you were lied to your whole life
>"Just trust me and my absolutely-no-source on that, bro"
>>
>>132239973
They weren't racists towards themselves yet, it's was class, tribes, and nations that they fuck themselves over for. Although everyone hated the Jews, that was the go to people to hate on apparently.
>>
>>132240020
>They weren't racists towards themselves yet
I find that hard to believe. People who look and talk different from the majority are always going to face some fort of xenophobia based out of fear of the unknown.
>>
>>132240012
To play devil's advocate, it's not lying if you just don't show the evidence ever. And also the blacks you see in the paintings are probably Spanish nobles.
>>
>>132239885
>word salad

Sign of schizophrenia.
>>
>>132240032
Look man, life spans where too short to start a race war every second, humanity wouldn't get as far as it did if we let certain nitpicking things like funny ways of talking get in the way of actual survival
>>
>>132240074
>To play devil's advocate, it's not lying if you just don't show the evidence ever
To play God's advocate, there is such a thing as "lying by omission"
>>
>>132240105
>Look man, life spans where too short to start a race war every second
You're strawmanning me now. You don't need a race war to have racism. Hell, by that definition, America hasn't had a lick of racism since the Civil War--and that's only if you're counting that as a race war, which would be a very loose technicality.
>>
>>132240105
>Look man, life spans where too short
Also, you're stating common misconceptions at me now as arguments? Infant mortality was low, but people tended to live pretty long if they survived childhood.
>>
>>132240074
It’s hilarious to me how in less than 20 years it’s been commonly accepted by historians and painting experts that “black” looking people in medieval art are just depictions of Spaniards, Italians or moors.

And now because it’s trendy it’s been decided that no it’s because black bantus from sub Saharan Africa were just popping up everywhere and were knights and lords in Europe. Shame we can’t find their bones to prove it though
>>
>>132240032
>fear of the unknown
>Oh my god, I have a scary scottish gypsy neighbor. Maybe they'll put a hex on me kek
>>
>>132240152
The laws of the universe were much less rigid to the common man back then. You kek, but those were real fears for many peasants.

Stupid fears, yes, but they were generally a stupid people back then. Peasants didn't get access to public education until the 16th-to-19th centuries.
>>
Oh so this is why I can't find the other Sandman thread for the show. Ok.
>>
>>132240148
Wtf how would their bones tell us they're even black?
>>
>>132240187
Because black people have hollow bones, dude. Haven't you been keeping up with the literature?
>>
>>132240193
I don't surf pol/ ever, it causes brain damage I heard.
>>
>>132240193
>>132240187
>>132240255
>forensic anthropology isn’t real

Weird how these pesky “scientists” keep claiming they can differentiate ethnic groups from skeletons.

>Dr. Rae Osborn was educated in South Africa and the United States. She holds Honors Bachelor of Science degrees in Zoology and Entomology, and Masters of Science in Entomology from the University of Natal in South Africa. She has received a PhD in Quantitative Biology from the University of Texas at Arlington as well as an AAS Degree in Information Network Specialist and an AAS in Computer Information Systems, at Bossier Parish Community College in Louisiana.Her skills lie in research and writing for a range of educational levels and teaching various Biology classes. She has been trained as a lecturer, researcher and computer scientist.

Read more: Difference Between Aboriginal Skull and a Caucasian skull

http://www.differencebetween.net/science/difference-between-aboriginal-skull-vs-caucasian-skull/

I guess she’s just one of those dumb racist poltards. Race isn’t real guys, skeletons are all the same!
>>
>>132240321
Seriously. How has the “anti racist” side become retarded enough to ignore science? How do you not understand you can identify ethnic differences through skeletons

Do you guys also think genes are all the same? That those DNA tests for ethnic markers are all lies by racists?
>>
>>132240321
>.net
Ummm.... buddy?
>>
>>132240354
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Rae-Osborn

Feel free to tell her that her field is racist lies
>>
>>132240321
>>132240342
Same retards won’t question it when news stories about mass graves of black people are found from slavery days. Even though they’re all skeletons.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/tech/11517232/skeleton-mass-grave-african-slaves/

No way to tell from bones though apparently
>>
>>132240321
It's sure is weird I can't find any pictures of the researcher.
>>
>>132218880
My name suggestion for a thread about the show:
"Everyone's gay for black dudes Edition"
I'm at episode 1. I'm questioning what homoerotic Twilight shit I'm currently watching.
>>
>>132240394
Feel free to dismiss this too. Hollow bones dude. Forensic anthropology is a lie!

https://www.science.org/content/article/forensic-anthropologists-can-try-identify-person-s-race-skull-should-they

>Winburn and a colleague did a study to try to find out. Among about 250 resolved cases in which forensic anthropologists offered an ancestry estimate, they correctly identified a person’s social race about 90% of the time

It’s kind of hilarious that this article does its best to cast it as a kind of “highly contentious dubious pseudoscience”, and the main arguments are just activists saying race not real. Identifying bones is like nazis! Stop it!
>>
Wait, I never knew there were people who legit denied you could identify race/ethnic groups from skeletons?

How do you guys think they identify which groups random dead skeletons from thousands of years ago are from?

The studies of migration periods of various ethnic groups?
>>
>>132240394
Guess this means we can safely say the Native American skeletons are white guys. No way to prove they aren’t. Therefore, whites are the native Americans.

Shame there’s no kind of system to figure out otherwise
>>
>>132240431
>>132240457
Dude the source could be from a low level computer generated AI and you'd believe it
>>
>>132239841
>his appearance is static

his character is static. he abandoned his function and was living his life, so yeah he looked more human
>>
>>132240020
they were literally racist against each other. you moron.

white nazis killed white jews, and that's just the 20th century
>>
>>132240518
it is a strange claim to make that racism is a modern invention.
>>
>>132240105
life spans were too short, and yet, there were feudal civil wars on the regular

>>132240187
ethnicities have slightly different skeletal differences.

also DNA testing. sure is summer in here
>>
>>132240535
i didn't claim that, dumbass. i said that just in the 20th century there was white on white crime. if you look at european history before colonialism, the whole thing is white on white crime
>>
>>132240472
>science isn’t reaaaal

You’re just like the anti vaxxers lmao
>>
>>132240535
No one saying it's modern. I'm saying it's not universally the same to every era of human history
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>>132240450
i think it's just one mindblown anon trying to rationalize black people in europe being a normal thing and that the sandman tv show isn't totally disconnected from reality.
>>
>>132240576
If the source is from a person that doesn't even exist in the real world as a human it's not science or anything at all.
>>
If racial features aren’t present in skeletal remains, how do you even explain why racial groups look different beyond skin colour? This is retarded. Bone structure is like 99% of what makes a persons appearance.

Otherwise, why wouldn’t black Africans who are albinos look like white Europeans?
>>
Soooo ok....there's like a anon that pretends to be a new person JUST to talk about race and the bone structures of humans in a thread about the Sandman.
>>
>>132240601
https://johnhawks.net/explainer/laboratory/race-cranium

This guy has a face. Is he real? Even has a CV, books, references, multinational studies with scientists and accredited universities

Never mind. We both know you aren’t going to read it because reality is too scary
>>
>>132240632
Meh
>>132240187
>>132240193
These guys pretended to be retarded or were dumb enough to deny science. They deserve it
>>
>>132240634
>.net again
Oh boy, fucking fantastic. If I do five seconds of research, I could find out the picture is stolen from a innocent dudes Facebook for another ai generated website to exploit
>>
Why does absolutely everything have to devolve into uneducated racial judgement bullshit? Fuck this. The show is crap for a bunch of reasons but nooooo everyone just has to focus on the racebait casting choice. Why do you care? Why does it matter in the first place? Holy FUCK I hate racial arguments. Everyone talking about race ITT needs to shut the fuck up.
>>
>>132240674
>.net

Why is this so bad exactly? Just seems like you don’t want to address the content. References. Etc

Never mind his published academic books. It says DOT NET!

Never mind paleo anthropologists have been established sciences for over a century.

How exactly do you think anything is determined from bones then?

Just more scary chud science like vaccines and satellites?
>>
>>132240700
Because people were trying to deny science because they bought too hard into the “race is just skin colour” idea.

Even though that’s meant to be a political perspective to ensure equality. Not a literal scientific one. Otherwise nobody would be able to tell which ethnic groups skeletal remains belong to.
>>
>>132240716
>Because people were trying to deny science because they bought too hard into the “race is just skin colour” idea
Eat shit and fuck off. I do not care about the science of ethnicities. I do not care about race, period. I'm so damn tired of everything being about race. Can't any of you faggots find something more interesting to talk about?
>>
>>132240700
God I have no fucking clue either dude. People say it's just white people going unhinged from seeing less of themselves in their favorite mediums but I don't think any race realist here ever touched Neil's fucking work. The show is just a easy target to get retards to start race bait shit, and woke anons to fall for it easily because they think they can argue with a soulless broken 4channer
>>
>>132240764
>I do not care

Why keep denying it then?
>>
>>132240704
>I get all my research from the broken iffy blog sites
God I hope you'll get help someday, or not, that could also be funny
>>
>>132240765
>>132240764
>poster claims black people were common in Europe, posts a painting of some dark skinned lord
>other poster says that’s not true. Otherwise they’d have identified them from the bones by now. Considering nobility are overwhelmingly buried in crypts and cathedrals
>NOOOOOO BONES DONT IDENTIFY RACE

ah yes, it’s the person pointing out reality and science who ruined this thread. Why couldn’t we just ignore it?

You guys are worse. Denying science. Or “ignoring” it by… constantly going on about it

Sure.
>>
>>132240787
You absolute subhuman, I haven't been ITT for hours, since before the racial arguments started. Fuck you. Choke on twenty miles of veiny cock.
>>
>>132240806
Where do you get your research? I tend to use academia and universities. But I’d love to hear your scientific source refuting them
>>
Great Sandman thread you guys, what, less then 40 times the comics and show is actually mentioned?
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>>132240837
Too busy stopping this retard from lying about junk science. It’s people like him who ruined America. “Racial science” is fucking bullshit
>>
>>132240837
Fucking infuriating. These skidmarks are just going on and on and on about one racebait casting choice. Sandman is hands down one of the best comics of all time but the TV adaptation just had to be divisive dogshit.
>>
>>132240834
I go to a very conservative college and even they don't trust the bone judgement shit anymore. It was always just retarded science to justify how light skin people could be smarter just cause, but what researchers came to find is that everyone got special fucking skulls regardless of ethnicity. The skulls they used to use as examples didn't represent billions of humans.
>>
>>132240890
>no name

Sure thing anon. The college of daydreaming

Good god. What next. Skeletal remains cannot be identified as men or women? There are 6 ft women with strong jaws and big shoulders after all. We cant assume
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>>132240700
Why shouldn't they care? You should examine your weird discomfort regarding this topic instead of pretending it is somehow beneath you just because it makes you feel icky.
>>
>>132240890
How does paleoanthropology identifying ethnic groups from various facets of the skull “prove whites are smarter”?

Skulls don’t denote intelligence, you retard.
>>
>>132240905
>>132240916
>>132240923
Phrenology has been disregarded by the entire scientific community dude. Let it go.
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>>132240958
>entire scientific community
>can’t name one academic source or university

It’s over
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>>132240967
Your professor aren't even real people lol. Good night though. I'm sleepin.
>>
>>132240958
I don't know how Phrenology relates to a discussion about presentation and casting choices. But I am sure it made you feel good.
>>
>>132240916
>just because it makes you feel icky
You have to be 18 or older to use this website.
>>
>>132241035
The chuds keep pretending bones are science
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>>132241035
>phrenology

Phrenology is the 19th century pseudoscience about predicting peoples intelligence or criminality based on random bumps on top and back of the skull.

Not sure why you think that’s the same as Paleo Anthropology. Which has hard science showing 90% accuracy in identifying skeletal remains to ethnic groups. And is widely accepted in criminal forensics, academia and historical studies.

Why deny science?
>>
fucking woke bullshit
>>
>>132241090
>90% accuracy

Gotcha. So it’s fucking bullshit junk science. That’s basically like flipping a coin you dumb republitard
>>
Well, the show sucks but at least I learned we can identify peoples race from their bones, thanks anon, I honestly thought it was just from dna but this is pretty cool and makes sense
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I can only imagine what The Sandman would look like if McKean did the interiors as well.
I imagine him and Neil would plan out how the art would look for each arc. McKean would go balls out. Maybe at first one part would look sort of like Arkham Asylum, another more like Cages, another like Mr. Punch, Black Orchid, Black Dog, and so on. All the different realms and dreams would have a completely different art style.
Perhaps it would come out slower, and Neil would rethink some of his dumber/more lame arcs/stories.
I'd probably love it then.
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>>132241270
They'd keep Todd Klein, of course.
I can't see Ramadan not being done by P. Craig Russell, so maybe some of the oneshots are handed to the best artists on the current run.
>>
Question, as someone who has not read the comics yet. I'm on episode 1, was the Magus son a homosexual in the comics?
I ask because I'm getting pretty irritated with everything being LGBTQ geared.
I really and honestly do not hate or dislike the LGBT but I do dislike and hate how its being forced into everything from Videogames, to Animated series and the like.
Like why the hell does everyone have to be forced to be not only accepting of but partakers of the LGBT agenda?
I feel as if I'm losing my mind.
>>
>>132241371
Just read the comics. Skip the show.
>>
>>132241402
that doesn't answer my question Anon.
plus there is a ton of source material comics.
I need to know the answer to my question not be told;
>meh, go read
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>>132241412
>plus there is a ton of source material comics
just read Gaiman's Sandman; that is the story.
>>
>>132241412
Yes, he's a gay.
It's only 75 issues for the original series.
>>
>>132221596
The show is surprisingly accurate to the source material, at least in tone if not always in visuals. Not many complaints.
>>
>>132239986
It's a writer-comic and not writer/artist-comic
>>
>>132241478
The visuals are clearly fucked.
>>
>>132241476
fuck!
as much as I wanted to watch this adaptation, I have to take a stand. I'm tired of being forced to view and champion LGBT. I don't give a fuck about anyones sexual preferences or what they do in the privacy of their bedroom. as long as you're not raping anyone and sex is legal and consensual then hey, do you boo-boo but this constant bombardment of LGBT shit, subtle attack and alienation of heterosexuality is honestly beginning to hurt my head and it feels like a direct attack against my sanity.
what the fuck is up with this shit
>>
>>132228704
At least The Wake was good.
>>
>>132241516
It's all in the first issue too. A lot of shit happens.
Almost as if Gaiman wanted to throw in as many taboo or dark subject matter as he could in his first shot.
There's quite a bit of gay shit throughout the comic, but most of it isn't.
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>>132241323
These covers are so great.
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>>132241580
>>
>>132241553
that's it. I can't support this show anymore and I really wanted to like this. but with the over abundance of LGBTQ being shoved into everyone's faces and the unwritten but clearly rule-etched-in-stone 'law' of "Either accept and support it or lose your livelihood and risk being cancelled" culture that LGBTQ has - I can't support shows like this.
When I was a child, I would read comics, sci-fi and never once was the idea of sexuality (being it heterosexual or otherwise) ever came into my young mind. I was more concerned with If the Good guys won or if the Bad Guys were cool enough to like as characters. but now every-fucking-thing is about sexuality and it's about LGBTQ mostly.
Before anyone says it, I personally don't watch heterosexual sex scenes because 99% of those sex scenes are pointless to pushing the story ahead.
fuck this world is savage and sick.
>>
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>>132241593
>>
>>132241612
Yeah, don't watch it.
>>
>>132240074
>also the blacks you see in the paintings are probably Spanish nobles.
kek can't tell if bait or just american
>>
He's really not that bad. They should have given him the right materials and the right story.
>>
It was alright but sometimes they felt out of budget which is weird because some scenes would work better without being as grand.

Like John vs Dream was so boring compared to how the comic did it. Hell not even a fakeout 4th wall break asking him to put the prop ruby down.
>>
>>132241516
You’re just a bigot, dude. Irrationally distressed about just having to acknowledge that people who aren’t cis or straight also exist. I would consider seeking help from a therapist to resolve this deep uncomfortable feelings you’re experiencing, you appear to be a troubled soul when it disturbs you this much that a comic written over thirty years ago had a gay character gay just like in the tv show.
>>
>>132241882
No I don't buy or accept that. but like I said, I'm just going to have to ensure the things I give my attention and money to aren't LGBTQ related. You're obviously gaslighting and I get why but, If me proudly being heterosexual and refusing to compromise on that makes me a bigot, I'll gladly wear that title. I don't hate you for being LGBTQ, I don't wish nothing bad upon you for being LGBTQ. what I dislike is being forced to be subjected to LGBTQ issues, media/stories and the like. its really that simple. all the titles of "cis" and other new terminology introduced into modern language means nothing to me. I won't compromise on my stance and I am not expecting you to compromise on yours.
>>
>>132241882
its the fucking fact that the current state of America sits with this bullshit on their shoulders. No fucking wonder other countries view us as weak you fucking idiot.
>>
>>132241882
Oh shut the fuck up
>>
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>>132230554
Issue 26, when Dream plays host to a menagerie of mythical beings. Lots of inventive visuals. I also have a soft spot for Moving In, where Rose meets the other residents of the boarding house. Which the show fucked up, of course.
>>
>>132241935
Other countries also have gay people living in them and in their media. Bigots gotta bigot, I know, but that type of irrational hate and endless obsession is not good for you, friend.
>>
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>>132218880
It's got very good parts and parts so bad I kept thinking I was reading fan-fiction then remembering it was all by the same person. The road trip with Delirium was a low point and in the early days would have filled two pages.
The one off near the end with the smiley faced god is terrible and completely deflates Death's return in the next issue
It had the best covers ever produced and that alone makes it the one comic I wish I could have bought as it was released but the contents rarely lived up to their promise.
>>
>>132218880
>Dream has the brothers, Lucien, Matthew, Corinthian,...
>Death lives alone
>you'll never be Death's little helper
It hurts. Why can't I make her job easier and help people die?
>>
>>132235420
Not that anon but Gaiman is capable of genuine touches of poetry but perhaps has too high an opinion of himself and can't see that not only is it not all good but that some of it is actually just shit leading to very patchy work.
>>
Is Sandman the one where they have a fight over who will own Hell and Satan goes around and kills a bunch of Hindu Gods?
Idk if that's Sandman or American Gods
>>
It gave us Lucifer which was a much more interesting series, so it earned its right to exist.
>>
>>132230554
Façade for sure.
>>
>>132242506
hi Thanos
>>
>>132231922
Get this pasty ass white bitch out of here, Death is a strong black queen
>>
>>132236141
does it? I thought it was in the first half of the series
>>
>>132232259
>theological soul-candy
Anon, fuck off
>>
>>132242630
Thanos makes her job more difficult by killing all the people at once. Imagine how stressful day at work it would be, going all over galaxy and collecting deads. No, I want to make people accept they will die and look forward to it. Make them not resist, bargain, argue that it's not their time and they want one more day. Just nod, say thank you for your time, and let Death do what she does. I want to make them welcome her sweet embrace.
>>
>>132230554
For me it's the Collectors where they hold the serial killer convention.
>>
>>132239656

>Bruh, they hung a monkey in Hartlepool, England during the napoleonic wars after a shipwreck because the locals thought it was what a french person looked like
Except they didn't, if they hanged a monkey it was because it was a French monkey. Europe wasn't diverse but no one thought the French were monkeys 200 years ago
>>
>>132240074
Any time you see a black knight in a painting it is always St Maurice of Thebes, centurion of the first legion to convert to Christianity and a patron saint of Germany. That's why he always carries a German flag like in that picture. However he was neither Egyptian or a knight let alone black
>>
>>132240873
>one racebait casting choice
The whole thing is poorly cast
>one of the best comics of all time
No, it wasn't even the best of its own time
>>
>>132238692
Shouldn't Lucifer be nude?
>>
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>>132231731
>>132231789
On reread, I realised that it ties into the end of Lucifer's first appearance. He promises to destroy Dream and, in a roundabout way, by giving him the key he does.
>>
>>132218880
yes it was
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>>132233586
>Best art
Overture got it beat
>>
>>132239313
f a g g o t
>>
>>132239771
>that Nobel-like award
the fucking World Fantasy Award isn't even CLOSE to the level of the Nobel Prize
>>132239952
Gaiman absolutely not was considered a "real" author when Midsummer Night's Dream was published. He started in comics, not novels, and his only novel at that point was Good Omens, which he wrote after he had started Sandman. He didn't write Neverwhere unitl 1996.
>>
>>132242645
it is, but it's in the 20s compared to the rest of the stuff you can remember
>>
>>132227923
i had to speed read that arc the fucking art was so bad.
>>
>>132238753
Mark Hamill says he loves the new movies.
>>
Chuds pretending there are no black people in 1500’s europe. Lmao. Read a fucking book. Diversity was welcome
>>
>>132221596
The show is shit don't waste your time watching this garbage: the first two episodes will lure you thinking that it's actually good. However the more you watch, the more you gobble the woke propaganda. It's an nigger explosion, niggers everywhere? Girl boss moments everywhere, Lucienne being a bitch to Dream, overstretching plots for nothing, shit dialogues, too many human flaws were added to Dream which is absurd as he's is an Endless
>>
>>132243728
>Lucienne being a bitch to Dream

She’s not being a bitch, she’s slightly confrontational, and those scenes lay out what a pompous asshole Dream himself is and how he’s slowly changing by mot being an authoritarian dick but someone who starts to listen to others and consider their views as well.
>>
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>>132218880
It starts out a little rough but after that it's great and the quality never dips. Great characters, amazing setting and it really manages to feel otherworldly and relatable at the same time.

>>132218907
The fact that the Moon is a TERF is quite funny desu
>>
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>>132241371
>I feel as if I'm losing my mind.
Yeah, your posts makes it look like it as well kek. Say hi to Delirium from us anon.
>>
>>132218880
Yes, some arcs were more memorable than others though.
>>
>>132241371
>was the Magus son a homosexual in the comics?
it's not stated but implied
>>
>>132243824
Implied with the subtlety of a hammer blow.
>>
I always found Wildcat’s appearence in this one issue to be really odd.
And this was when regular DC characters stopped showing up, except for Hippolyta Trevor
>>
>>132218880
No but it's ok.
>>
>>132243118
From the original series.
>>
>>132242555
That doesn't sound familiar. Could be from American Gods.
>>
>>132230554
3 Septembers and a January, or whatever the Emperor Norton issue title was
>>
>>132243874
There are superheroes throughout.
>>
>>132240567
>>132239364

Some chopice quotes from a selection of Arab Muslim scholars discussing race in the early Middle Ages. These Arab scholars seem to have a consistent description of Black Africans.
>"Of the neighbors of the Bujja, Maqdisi had heard that "there is no marriage among them; the child does not know his father, and they eat people -- but God knows best. As for the Zanj, they are people of black color, flat noses, kinky hair, and little understanding or intelligence."
- Ibn Battuta 1331 AD

>"We know that the Zanj (blacks) are the least intelligent and the least discerning of mankind, and the least capable of understanding the consequences of actions."
Jahiz in the 'Kitab al-Bukhala' 868 AD

The best quote is from 903 AD. An Arab scholar recognizes the different races of European, Arab and African, and claims superiority of the Arab.
>"A man of discernment said: The people of Iraq ... do not come out with something between blonde, buff and blanched coloring, such as the infants dropped from the wombs of the women of the Slavs and others of similar light complexion; nor are they overdone in the womb until they are burned, so that the child comes out something between black, murky, malodorous, stinking, and crinkly-haired, with uneven limbs, deficient minds, and depraved passions, such as the Zanj, the Somali, and other blacks who resemble them. The Iraqis are neither half-baked dough nor burned crust but between the two."
Ibn al-Faqih al-Hamadani 903 AD

Race is ancient. You're more than welcome to search these quotes and verify their veracity. The idea that race is a purely European construct is a blood libel, historically inaccurate and shows you have disdain for Whites people.
>>
>>132242457
I want to buy The Dust Covers. It collects the covers from the original series.
It's my favorite aspect of the comic.
>>
>>132225584
I find myself saying this relatively often here, but good or well-regarded things don't tend to get much discussion.
Maybe it's /co/, or chan culture, or just the way the Internet is, but good things only really bear discussions when they're new or when something related happens (like right now); but you can make a thread about something shitty and its chances of getting a lot of activity are much higher, regardless of how old and dead the thing is.
Every once in a while, someone will experience the good thing for the first time and will make a thread, and there'll be a few positive replies, a consensus that they liked it, and not much more.
Just from recent memory, I've seen threads about things like Joe Kelly's JLA run, or Mike Carey's work in general, and they played out like that.

Because, before this show bullshit, what was there to say about Sandman that hadn't been said a million times? "It's good, read it."
>>
>>132230554
maybe it's just the residual feeling of finishing something you really like, but The Tempest just sticks with me.
>>
>>132238880
We've long known Neil is an appeasing backwalking coward
He was back then, and so he is now
>>
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>That random cop who got covered with invisible insects for eternity for mildly irritating Delirium.
>>
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do you think the original Despair killed herself because she bamboozled herself into creating the most powerful symbol of hope in the universe
>>
>>132245963
It's hard to know why the original Despair died, we didn't get much by way of information on her throughout the series, only that the person responsible for her death was to be punished for the rest of eternity.
>>
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>>132245963
Its one of those great mysteries like wondering what happened to Delirium to make her into what she was.
If in remember correctly it was said somewhere that someone killed one of the endless before and their punishment was to be eternal, I always thought that they killed Despair and were forced to become her but that theory is just as good as any other.
>>
>>132236705
>Martian Manhunter
One of my personal favorite, sadly I've to admit nobody gives a Shit about Manhunter, even in the comics
>>
>>132218880
>In retrospect, is it really that good?
Not a fan of the anthology aspect. I enjoy the endless and seeing them go on adventures together was the selling point of this for me. There were a couple of anthology stories that stuck to me, like the immortal guy who would meet with Dream every once in a while, but most of them were pretty forgettable.

It also needed more informal, straight forward dialogue. It feels like this book only has two kinds of character speech, it's either a very formal, wordy kind or a street wise kind with swearing. When two characters who talk like the former are having a conversation it becomes wordswordswords for several pages. I would find myself speedreading sometimes just to get to the part that actually matters to the story's progression.
>>
>>132230479
>I'd argue its better than Sandman in most apsects.
The part where Lucifer decides to become a creator himself mogs the entirety of Sandman. What a fantastic sequence of chapters that was.
>>
>>132247282
Sorry, but I don't believe you.
>>
>>132246176
>like wondering what happened to Delirium to make her into what she was.
I always assumed it was the result of her becoming increasingly more aware of the bad shit about the universe. One day she just snapped and lost her mind because, why be delight when everything is so terrible?
>>
>>132247688
I thought this shit was obvious? Jst a slightly darker and honest metaphor for 'Growing Up' than people are used to. How life's chaos can drive you mad on the journey.
>>
>all of these Hobchads
I would not shitpost if I knew such men among men were amongst us
>>
>>132247282
Exactly. And the part with Destiny and everything with Elaine Belloc
>>
>>132248052
Too few of us.
>>
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>>132238700
>>
>>132243773
You can't argue with the moon about femininity. Nature itself hates troons and that's what makes Sandman so based. Death just gave that tranny a final cope before it spending an eternity in hell.
>>
>>132241371
>>132241412
>>132241516
>>132241928
Cool blog, sis.
>>
Here's Death trolling the shit out of the coping tranny. Based Gaiman strikes again.
>>
>>132218880

The art looked good. I've had Nocturnes and Preludes in my bookshelf for near 10 years and haven't finished it or been able to make myself go back and finish it. Its not my thing, but its talked up so there's something there if you can find something to hook you into reading it.
>>
>>132249048
Death is far more fundamental to the nature of reality than some random moon goddess
>>
>>132249048
>>132249086
>>132218907
>NEIL IS ONE OF US
Don't forget to invite him to join /pol/.
>>
>>132249086
How fucking brainrotted do you have to be to actually believe this is shitting on Wanda? Like I get you're just trolling but I'm sure there's some people that could be legit convinced that the entire arc wasn't supporting her as a character.
>>
>>132249095
it's the moon itself, controller of the tides on earth, not a moon goddess. Death only delivers souls to the next world and sees them when they're reborn. She was trolling Wanda before sending her to burn.
>>
>>132249116
yeah, and it's mostly SJWs who think that.
>>
>>132249116
Shh, let him think Gaiman is a white supremacist. He'll buy all his books.
>>
>>132249122
Ok, then Death is WAY more fundamental to the nature of reality than a moon for some random planet.
>>
>>132249122
It’s so cute that this is your latest pathetic gaslighting project, and it doesn’t work at all due to how easily people can prove you wrong.
>>
>>132249116
The moon and magic face call Wanda a delusional troon, and then the moon murders Wanda with a giant tsunami out of rage because Wanda refuses to stop coping and disrespecting femininity itself by renouncing his drag queen nature. In the end Death trolls Wanda before sending her to burn with the two dickhead angels.
>>
>>132245963
Nah. The entire point of the Endless is that they actually represent both sides of the coin. Superman existing as a symbol of hope just makes her stand out all the more and stronger in contrast. Like without despair there can be no hope and without hope there can be no despair. It's like how life becomes pointless if there's no death and such.
>>
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>>132249160
Death being well-established as a trickster asshole in the comic. And/or well-established as telling comforting lies to the dead and dying.

Oh wait.
>>
Was I the only one that didn't really like Lucifer? Pretty much the only characters I ended up liking was the half-angel chick and that demon sidekick guy (he was based).
Maybe that was the point and I just get easily filtered if I don't care about any of the MCs. Might be why I don't think super highly of large chunks of Sandman either
>>
>>132249336
probably, it's pretty highly-praised on /co/. Often rated as one of Vertigo and DC's best.
>>
>>132247182
You got filtered
>>
>>
>>132218880

I appreciate what they were attempting, but as someone that always seeks consistency in comics - I despised the hugely inconsistent art teams story to story. Perhaps if the illustrators were more carefully curated it could be comics kino, but as is it's the triumph of deadline making and writer hero crafting.
>>
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>>132249287
Interesting thing about Death's line in that bottom panel, it must have come from Gaiman's good friend Terry Pratchett who wrote a similar thing about his own personification of Death:
>He remembered the knowledge. He remembered his mind feeling as cold as ice and limitless as the night sky. He remembered being summoned into reluctant existence at the moment the first creature lived, in the certain knowledge that he would outlive life until the last being in the universe passed to its reward, when it would then be his job, figuratively speaking, to put the chairs on the tables and turn all the lights off.
from Mort, which is a few years before Sandman I think
>>
>>132241061
>>132241102
yeah different anon here. i'm a marxist. you're being retarded. even if the other anon is a right winger, anthropology is science. cope or get the fuck back to twitter
>>
>>132243656
he was probably strongarmed in to signing a contract that stipulates he has to make claims about liking the movies
>>
>>132243664
>diversity was welcome

oh right. is that why women, gays and atheists were burnt at the stake you fucking retard? those cathars were welcomed by the catholic church, huh?
>>
>>132250766
anon, why even take such flaming fucking bait? there's a certain point where it's so blatant that you have to let it go.

or, hell, at least sage your post if you're going to take such blatantly obvious bait.
>>
>>132250787
Culture warriors have no sense and don't care if they're responding to obvious bait if it means they get to repeat their talking points and throw shade against the side they hate even if it's obvious it's not actually them saying or doing stuff
>>
>>132232784
Hey, he's also talking about all the wacky stuff that happened to Clark in Action Comics. Morrison definitely read this.
>>
>>132243664
I believe the most common area where black people were welcome was Poland and mostly because the people of color there weren't used that much for labor work and were more of a curiosity brought back to the country. There was one notable nobleman who was in fact a Moor and Moors were also not chastised there as much. But I don't believe it was that common in other parts of Europe.
>>
>>132220339
Kyle Baker's plasticman run
>>
>>132250880
it wasn't common but it wasn't like they were non-existent. Shakespeare wrote a whole play about one
>>
>>132220339
Sandman Mystery Theatre.
>>
>>132250920
But I don't think they were as common as some Netflix shows would like you to believe and were probably not seen as that normal there since those were different times.
>>
>>132249160
Is it too much to ask you to stop being so stupidly obssessed for a single thread
>>
>>132250987
no, probably not
>>
>>132249406
Not an argument.
>>
>>132251840
Not everything is meant to be. It’s a fact..
>>
>>132251003
For some of these idiots, yeah it's too much to ask. The funny part is just how mistaken that anon is. He gets one part right - that the moon takes biological sex very seriously - and then mangles the part where Death gives Wanda the perfect female body he always wanted for that brief moment of parting before he moves on forever. It's supposed to be touching, but these obsessives just can't take their culture war somewhere else for a while to appreciate the context.

It's the same stupidity as the raceb8. They just can't seem to help themselves.
>>
>>132243456
its pretty memorable
after the first half I can't remember the plot at all.
>>
>>132239885
I honestly feel bad for black people.
>>
>>132253060
there isn't MUCH of a plot after the beginning, it's mostly just one-shots with a few arcs here and there
>>
>>132224541
>Rejected by Womanhood
>Accepted in Death
>>
>>132254253
The moon isn't the ultimate determiner of anything. it shows that Wanda's soul was female in the end and that's all that matters. Death is so far above the moon in terms of importance and scaling that i have no idea how you could value it's opinion over hers.
>>
>>132254253
>Rejected by the Moon*
ftfy
>>
just finished the show and I'll never forgive them for two things

1- having Dream not laughing his mind off when confronted to ''sandman''
2- having Dream being a jobber and a sucker to Lucienne and Rose walker
>>
>>132254305
because the moon agrees with him
>>
>>132218880
Sandman is unbelievably good, however going purely by distant memory there are caveats.

Volumes 1-6 and 8 are one level of quality. Arguably the first few episodes have some tonal issues being worked out, but overall I would consider these are the volumes that consistently prove Sandman deserves its status.

Volumes 7, 9, and 10 however I'm a little ambivalent about, although I stress I was a teenager when I read these and may get a lot more out of them on a reread. The problems I had with these is they got completely taken over by longer term plots revolving around the series end-so they priority wasn't a tighy novel concept, but writing an appropriate ending at a dignified pace. This kind of abandons the two types of stories the series is incredible at: Incredibly dense and satisfying one shots, or longer arcs with mindbending or incredibly gripping concepts: a serial killer convention that gets attended by an actual demon. The Devil quits and gives our main character the key to hell, and he must decide what to do with it.

So those volumes in my head are just a mostly unimpactful mush, just so vague and unmemorable and blended together, whereas there are Sandman one shots that I read maybe once so many years ago that are seared into my brain and that I'll never forget: the one about Augustus, the Emperor of America, the first Hob Gadling appearance, Night of 1000 cats. Those are why Sandman is the best.
>>
>>132253076
I don’t. They brought on their own shitty circumstances

Now the poles I feel bad for
>>
So here's the thing, looking for Sandman art and related projects I found some obscure Sandman's NFTs, so I did what is right and stealed as much as I can, apparently there was the idea of making some sort of cards game idk? Didn't find the name of the artist, or multiple artist involved in the cryptoscam. I'll leave the direction if someone want to try to steal more than I

The gallery:
https://postimg.cc/gallery/7w2rfY4
The idk wtf is this NFT proyect
https://sandman.finance/

Disclaimer: IDK anything about NFTs, maybe /biz/ can give us a hand?
>>
>>132254253
LMFAO
>>
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BITCOIN HEART LOL
>>
>>132249160
Based
>>
I feel like this could have been made by a /co/ member
>>
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>>132255754
Feets
>>
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>>132255932
Tasteful leg spread
>>
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You go back to your room after looking for some water and she's on your room, what you do /co/?
>>
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Acceptable wallpaper
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>>132243364
>no argument
Faggot is (You)
Cope and seethe
>>
>>
>>132256005
She's back...?
*unzips dick*
>>
>>132255932
>full clothes
>exposed feet
This was commissioned by Dan Schneider himself
>>
>>132256060
I don't have powerlevel arguments because I'm not a faggot
>>
>>132243416
>World Fantasy Award
Is worldwide
>Nobel prize
Is worldwide

Your turn
>>
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>>132218880
I liked it. Liked the cat part.
>>
>>132258086
I just looked at some of the winners of the WFA, and at least three of the winners also wrote very mediocre comic books.
>>
>>132243416
>Gaiman absolutely not was considered a "real" author when Midsummer Night's Dream was published
Now who's lying? He wrote a popular novel before getting into comics, and had multiple interviews in British media. He was no unknown in the literature world; he was an up-and-comer.
>>
>>132243824
>it's not stated but implied

It was only implied in the first issue, but it's explicitly confirmed in Volume 9. Unless you think Alex's lover saying that he is one of the grand old homos of England and describing how he seduced Alex in the garden is still only implying it.
>>
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>>132230554
AVGVST, mostly because the implication(buttsex destroyed the Roman empire) is so stupid it loops back to being amazing
>>
>>132257238
You sound effeminate and cock-hungry to me, fag
>>
>>132258086
So is the WWE World Heavyweight title
Your point?
>>
Sandman isn't nearly close to "masterpiece". It's very slick, readable comic created to be liked. People confuse a well crafted work/popular with "good" ALL THE TIME. Star Drek, Star Wars, Harry Potter, The Matrix, etc The examples are numerous.

but as other anons have already noted, the large arches were boring but meaningless. the best were the 1 shot shorts. Gaimal is very slick and the best he does is steal, I mean borrow ideas from various numerous sources and make as a story that will be liked. Sandman stole the 80s goth thing, mixed i with "mythology" borrowed from Piers Anthony very similar cycle of books about supernatural beings who control the world(forgot the name, sorry). gaiman freely borrowed from Greek mythology and any other place he could think of. As Picasso said:good artists copy, great artists steal.
>>
The Sandman from the TV show looks like a "pretty boy". Lost me there. Big mistake. Sandman was scary. Death a black woman, Lucifer a woman? Forget it, woke fags.
>>
>>132259980
>Piers Anthony very similar cycle of books about supernatural beings who control the world(forgot the name, sorry)
Incarnations of Immortality
>Incarnations of Immortality is the name of an eight-book fantasy series by Piers Anthony. The books each focus on one of eight supernatural "offices" (Death, Time, Fate, War, Nature, Evil, Good, and Night) in a fictional reality and history parallel to ours, with the exception that society has advanced both magic and modern technology. The series covers the adventures and struggles of a group of humans called "Incarnations", who hold these supernatural positions for a certain time.
>>
>>132232515
idk having God screw over 2 devout angels to force them to be the keepers of hell felt kino. Its disappointing that it cheaped Dream of deciding what to do with the key. Remiel and Duma being disgraced angels yet still devout felt gut renching to read.
>>
>>132260324
>felt gut renching to read.
No it didn't lmao
>>
>>132259980
I don't think it's very readable
>>
>>132221170
>>not a Gaiman and his collaborator's comic.

Can you name those?
>>
>>132221170
this >>132261686
>>
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>>132243773
>but after that it's great and the quality never dips
Ok Neil
>>
>>132250153
>I despised the hugely inconsistent art teams story to story
Never understood this about American comics, Berger also wanted to pull McKean off the cover which sort of indicates she didn't actually have a clue
>>
>>132220339
Bloom County
>>
>>132235385
Got to be kidding me
>>
only original comicbook series
>>
>>132259680
Oh yeah? What is that popular novel?



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