Have the X-Men been unintentionally written into being authoritarians with the whole Krakoa thing?
>>127227146The x-men are the deepest and most high iq capeshit it seems
horseshoe is real isn't it?
>>127227146Yes. They turned a stand-in for old equal rights activists with a stand-in for modern racial nationalists, because they legit don't believe you can be a fascist without being pro-white.
>>127227146>X-Men been unintentionally written into being authoritariansHickman I think intentionally wrote to be authoritarians and kinda dystopic in many ways, his use of Magneto is just too on the nose for it to be unintentional. I'm not sure about all the other X-writers however in particular Tini Howard seems to think Krakoa is the amazing Utopian place that the world should be.
>>127227146Its absolutely intentional, the conflict of the whole story is mutants deserve peace and happiness and this island provides that, but at the same time it is also a breeding ground for fascism.
>>127227572>I'm not sure about all the other X-writers however in particular Tini Howard seems to think Krakoa is the amazing Utopian place that the world should be.>gladiator death pits>babies in bushes>eldritch hentai pit to banish dissidents>thought policewho would say that is a utpoia?
>>127227807>who would say that is a utpoia?The same people who legitimately considered the Age of X-Man AU to be a utopia just because it was an all-mutant world with no humans, despite everything else wrong with that world.The type of people who wouldn't care if they're slaves in literal Hell so long as the hated majority group is gone.
>>127227146>unintentionallyMagneto tells humans they have new gods in the first issue of House of X.
>>127227146also gonna post Umberto Eco's definition of Fascism from Wikipedia;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_fascism
>>127227807Because the emphasis is that they have all the power now, with none of the responsibility or consequences.What's wrong with death matches? We've conquered death. It's my right to use my power even if it takes another's life because we can just bring them back.What's wrong with babies in the bushes? It's in the law, "Make More Mutants". Who says it's my obligation to raise brats, the old family structure is for lesser beings. Let it be someone else's job.What's wrong with the punishment hole and the thought police? Those are for the people who'd reject a perfect paradise and live with the flatscans. The kind that get sent to the Hellions. Those guys were never one of us to begin with, who cares what happens to them?The kicker is that the same people who simp for this kind of Brave New World bullshit would throw massive conniptions if it was the Inhumans doing all this, just cause one has X in their name and the other doesn't.
>>127227966>127227966Is pic a official panel or fan art.
>>127228010It's from Runaways #33
>>127227966Not even an Inhuman thing, it's an anti-anything not mutant thing. The difference is that everybody is content to calling everybody out on their shit, Marvel citizens generally (there are plenty of cases where they're not) being aloof or spiteful assholes to heroes, the Inhumans for raising a slave caste in the alpha primitives, other alien races for being brutal oppressors or mucking around with other species too much, but it's not a cool thing to point out the depravity and degeneracy the mutants are indulging in at the moment, simply because they're the favored.
>>127227966>The kicker is that the same people who simp for this kind of Brave New World bullshit would throw massive conniptions if it was the Inhumans doing all this, just cause one has X in their name and the other doesn't.We already knew this because taking mutants' powers away is considered genocide and can never be forgiven, but there's nothing wrong with mutants trying to take the Inhumans' powers away. These people are arguing from a position of "it's OK when our team does it" about actions they'd call for anyone else to be punished for.
>>127228092I would not be shocked if the X-men had a contingency plan to wipe out mutates like Spiderman or Captain America if they ever deemed their stable and inheritable powers a threat to the dominance of mutants
>>127228191>Spiderman or Captain AmericaIs it canon that they pass on their power sets to their offspring?
>>127228209Seem that way for spider-man since Mephisto wanted to erase his daughter.Doesn't that mean Spider-men are part of their own species thought.
>>127228209Its shown Spiderman can pass on his powers in a stable form to his offspring, that powerset alone shits on 90% of mutants
>>127228288Between Spiderman, His Clones and others who has acquired spider powers, the possibility of a Spider-folk arising that could potentially challenge 'Homo-Superior' is an existential threat
>>127227966The Hellions are actually marginalized among Krakoans, that's kinda funny and sad.
>>127228549amazing how the writers made them somewhat sympathetic
>>127228623Yeah, i never gave a shit about Wild Child or Orphan Maker before.Kwannon also became more interesting
>>127228800at this point I'm interested to see outsider mutant perspectives on Krakoa, you can tell a number of them can smell the shit but keep quietgroupthink and tribalism among mutants can be an intimidating force, especially if its the only support system one has left
>>127228846It would be really interesting to see mutants that don't care, or dislike Krakoa.Even muh metaphor people have to admit not every person in a demographic agrees on the same thing.But the writters are too high on the Krakoa Koolaid to explore this ideas
They aren’t making anyone live on the islandThey aren’t forcing their drugs on people There are 3 laws on the island
>>127228945Nature Girl pretty much proves consequences are moot if the other X people like you
what has my girl Armor been up to lately?
>>127229247Threesomes with Pixie and Cable.Joining S.W.O.R.D.Teen orgies on Krakoa
>>127229282Sounds very hot. I'll check it out.
>>127228945>They aren’t making anyone live on the islandWolverine was literally dragging Molly off in >>127228058 despite her protests. That's probably more of the fact that Wolverine's kind of a dumbass and assumed that her interest was an invitation, but it still happened.>They aren’t forcing their drugs on peopleEmma used her telepathy to basically force world leaders to accept their terms, which included their drugs.>There are 3 laws on the islandWe JUST had a story where one of their own murdered a bunch of people in the US and they were reluctant to send her to the pit, and were far more concerned about getting their asses sued off than the actual killings, and the island itself still freed them. They've also been sending kill squads against anyone they've considered a threat, and Beast turned half of a nation into plant slaves because he wanted to prevent them from removing the monopoly of the one thing the mutants can provide to the rest of the world, so fuck that rule about harming humans.
>>127229329>Emma used her telepathy to basically force world leaders to accept their terms, which included their drugs.Smells like a war declaration to me.
Ultimate Utopia was better because we got Jane of the jungle Rogue
>>127227146>unintentionallyyou are the problem with cape comics jesus christ. reminds me of when people said that the hydra takeover was marvel being pro-nazi
>>127227146You can't have a utopia without facism. Change my mind.
>>127229539I wish they would get on with the story then and show the downfall of such hubris
>>127229598Rome did not fall in a day. They have to show how based and redpilled the mutants are before they are shown their folly.
>>127227146No more or less than any other developed democracies that do the exact same things.
It's a commentary on Israel.
>>127229479Do you want to get Gwen Stacy'ed, Rogue? Because thats how you get Gwen Stacy'ed.
>>127227146>Have the X-Men been unintentionally written into being authoritariansyes
>>127228288It doesn't mean that the Spider-people are their own species unless you think mutants are their own species too, which they aren't.
>>127227966>would throw massive conniptions if it was the Inhumans doing all this, just cause one has X in their name and the other doesn't.Just like they had no problem with Hope mutating random people but swear that everyone should be mad about the cloud causing terrigenisis.
>>127231011how much are the newly mutated by hope aware that she's the one who fucked their life?
>>127229479Ultimate X-men had a lot wrong with it but they usually had pretty good cheesecake art in it if I remember right.
>>127227146They were intentionally written to be authoritarians. The whole thing was supposed to collapse, but the writing department found it so fun to play around with that they decided to stave that part off for later.
>>127227146No. 4chan as usual goes with the most stupid and extreme interpretation as possible to fulfil their hate boners
>>127231398Most of them at this point.
>>127227146It was originally intentional. Hickman wanted Krakoa to be bad.But the rest of Marvel and X-Men fans love Mutant Israel and them being Fascists.
>>127232957That's debatable. Hickman constantly throws shit in his books that is never addressed or subsequently dropped. Plus if he actually intended Krakoa to be bad he wouldn't have made all the characters 100% on board with it from the outset.
>>127229598>>127229663The people writing the books don't want Krakoa to fall. Hickman is leaving because they don't want to get to the next act where the mutants' hubris has any consequences.
>>127227146Oh the implications
>>127227146They have very intentionally been written as authoritarians. comics master want to establish their own regime and are using all media to promote weakness and extremist ideologically,
>>127229282>Threesomes with Pixie and Cable.Gonna need pictures of that.
>>127227960Europeans have basically always been fascist then?Not to knock on Ecco but all of these things have existed in one form or another since Roman times
>>127227887Better to reign in hell than to serve in Heaven I suppose
>Old Ways of ApocalypseApocalypse was might makes right. They have a vote.Rejection of Modernism is more like what we have now where people are trying to make things like they imagine they were when they were kids. The issue with X-men and AI is that they've been having fights with AI for their entire lives. It's not a problem of modernity. Especially since with their high levels of technology they've blown past the concepts of modern technology.>Mutants can't stand AI or humans because they are "different"This is completely backwards and unless poster is new to /co/ knows that. While it's worth exploring themes as part of critical theory, when you're an ignoramus and yet get copypasta'd over and over it makes it clear how contagious ignorance is.
Isn't there a page in this era where Magneto is basically saying they're going to purposefully Jim Crow the entire human race like it's something they should be grateful for?
>>127231011I'll never understand the in universe or out of universe reason for having her mutate random people instead of the depowered mutants. A lot of the depowered were mutants that they X-men know. There are still depowered mothers showing up at krakoa all these years later.
>>127234245>Apocalypse was might makes right. They have a vote.Unelected government, the Crucible is basically the natural spawn of Apocalypse's ideology that you have to "prove your strength" in allowing you to get beaten to death.Likewise this whole thing is an apparent retread of Apocalypse's retconned bullshit (which makes no sense).>This is completely backwards and unless poster is new to /co/ knows thatLiterally has a law of "AI are dangerous in the future therefore we can't allow them to be created at all, let's kill those things before they ever happen.Also, how the fuck did the X-Men forget this?
>>127234435I mean not really? He said that they would use the free market to give Krakoa power in a capitalist society. They would then use that power to delegitimize mutant bigotry and hate groups, so that if something like the Purifiers ever rose up again, they would be an increasingly marginalized voiceIt's not that different from what any other marginialized group has had to do to preserve their rights/identity. Money is the only real voice in our society, and while you can go "well mutants have to allow different perspectives" this is a setting where those different perspectives have tried to genocide mutants on multiple occasions.
>>127227146Unintentional? No. It's a Hickman premise. The dude's whole thing "The heroes are doing something stupid evil, but because they were heroes in the last book, they are actually morally ambiguous"Also building on this a bit.Cult of Tradition >"The Cult of Tradition", characterized by cultural syncretism, even at the risk of internal contradiction. When all truth has already been revealed by Tradition, no new learning can occur, only further interpretation and refinement.Oh boy does this fit Krakoa and it's current structure to a fucking T. It's a desperate attempt at combining all the contradictory ideologies of "mutantkind" under one banner and create a single mythology (Exodus' pseudo religious crap, Magneto's "mutants need to be protected", the Hellfire Club's capitalism, Apocalypse's social Darwinism and the X-Men's coexistence). Before it got retconned as "He was just talking out his ass", Nightcrawler literally stated that he wanted to make a "Mutant Religion".Likewise, it's all but stated that the structure of Krakoa is meant to mirror Arrako (aka Apocalypse's old stuff). It's literally a "Get back to the old days" for Mutants (while forgetting that the good old days were utterly dogshite). We also get in Excalibur and X-Corp by Howard, "History favours the mutants" etc. Krakoa also thus far has no education system or schools of philosophy/thought, Krakoa doesn't need to improve, change or be challenged. The ruling class and all the mutants keep talking about how it is "perfect as is"
>>127234936Nah, he literally goes "You don't like us in any capacity, we'll silence you". I guarantee you that Hickman knew exactly what he was doing.
>>127227146Is this better or worse than when it was just a child militia pretending to be a school?
>>127235082>"The Rejection of modernism", which views the rationalistic development of Western culture since the Enlightenment as a descent into depravity. Eco distinguishes this from a rejection of superficial technological advancement, as many fascist regimes cite their industrial potency as proof of the vitality of their system.This one is interesting, because it is very clearly linked to the first point and the Xenophobia of Krakoa. The advances that non-humans have made are "inconsequential" at best or they are "Fools" at worse. Magneto even says that mutants have pretty much "nothing" to learn from humans. In their meeting with the members of the world, Krakoa continues this, with the people in Krakoa pretty much telling humans that their culture is diseased and wrong, while theirs is "enlightened and superior". Likewise, they actively try to sabotage any technological development or humans attempts to reach "Post Human" status is stuff that Krakoa actively tries to stop this from occurring. It's not 1:1 but it's pretty damn close.
>>127227146All the current X-Men writers are bad, women cannot write any team book ever, Hickman was bad, Jordan White is a bad editor, all of his assistants are women who are also bad editors
>>127235382Thinking about it, I'm not going to do every single point, but I could easily go on about there is so much to Krakoa that the OP post didn't go into that is utterly fascistic and beyond authoritarian. The whole thing is Hickman trying to be clever and ask "questions" about power and authority, but it reads as the X-Men being brainwashed into being utter morons that are unable to figure out that letting Nazis, serial killers, rapists and genocidal lunatics onto an island and forming a community/cult based off the fact "We share the same genes", is a dumb idea. Like all Hickman premises, it relies on everyone being braindead morons and any personality beyond "Function to the plot".
>>127234245>The issue with X-men and AI is that they've been having fights with AI for their entire lives.The point is that they've specifically been fighting Sentinels and the Phalanx, there are other Marvel AIs outside the X-books, and Krakoa's jihad against AI has to basically ignore that they exist, to maintain the narrative that the AI is the enemy of the mutant.>This is completely backwards and unless poster is new to /co/ knows that.I think there would have been a lot to be done with the mutants as a group in decline, chimping out at the AIs and the Inhumans as groups on the ascent, stealing the destiny mutants thought was theirs, but Marvel never did much with the idea. Could have been interesting to see AIs or Inhumans defending themselves from mutant oppressors who'd become just like the human groups they used to fight. But now mutants are on the rise again so it wouldn't work.
>>127234783What happened to danger? Is she still around?
>>127234435>>127234936>>127235204That scene was Magneto boasting the mutants were going to do everything /pol/ accuses the Jews of being behind IRL. It's so blatant I don't know how he got away with it.
>>127235937Marvel doesn't employ enough Jewish people these days and the editors/writers being terminally online basic bitch blm supporting people are anti-Semitic
>>127236066This slipped through so I can believe it.https://www.vox.com/culture/2017/4/10/15242446/xmen-anti-semitic-ardian-syaf
>>127235880Apparently she is on the island but we have never seen her and it makes no sense. >>127235937"He's just asking questions guys"Also, on a more real note, I genuinely think it's because JDW is a dumb as pigshit editor. Apparently he didn't get that this was a "Totally not a transbashing". Bar someone using a slur, I don't think he'd pick up on anything unless it was literally spelt out to him.
>>127236123>Apparently he didn't get that this was a "Totally not a transbashing".IIRC Rosenberg wrote that and he didn't think it either. Turns out most people don't even think about the trans when they don't have to.
>>127236104Age of X-Man had a menorah used for a plot point and couldn't even be drawn properly
>>127236123>>127236293there's nothing wrong with that though tbqfh
>>127227807>>eldritch hentai pit to banish dissidentsexplain further
>>127227146It's not unintentional. It's the conclusion of the x-men's broken civil rights allegory that is now unironically championed by today's writers. They became the very thing they were made to oppose.
>>127236293I legit call bullshit on that. I guarantee that like Hickman he knew what he was doing.
>>127228209>Precognition>Super strength and super speed>Ability to climb on walls>Web shooters, organic or manmade, pick and choose>And whatever other bullshit Spider People get like Miles having Venom Blast and invisibility or Kaine being able to talk to spiders>Peter alone was able to shit on the entirety of the X-MenSpider-People should be the real future, not m*ties.
>>127236414They exile prisoners to krakoa to be held in aware stasis
>>127236737Oh and you are forgetting the worst shit. There is literally no time limit on this shit. They'll keep you down as long as they feel like it. Likewise, you will be let out at their own discretion. It's legit hell.
>>127227146It's worse. Now x-men embody all the irrational fears bigots have. Example.anti semites say : jews use the media/money/etc to control the world. X-men say they'll use their wealth and connections to only let pro mutant politicians get elected.white supremacists say : x (be it black, latino, mixed, etc) will not replace us. x-men proudly celebrate being the next stage after humanity that'll outlive them.bigots say : well, if the other side had power, they'd think themselves superior too. Now x-men say 'we're your new gods".This is a remarkable misfire of a run.
>>127236793All I know is Sabertooth gonna be mad AF when he gets out and finishes pulling krakoas tentacles from his ass
>>127236737"Can we talk about how Professor Xavier is TOTALLY dressing like a supervillain? Is that allowed? Because holy shit does he look like someone The Avengers would've been fighting through midtown Manhattan back in the 90's...""... Shit now I'm remembering he was part of fucking Onslaught! Remember that?! Ah shit here come the vines..."
>>127236805Oh yeah, this is Hickman trying to be clever and just coming off as a twat. That being said, would genuinely not be surprised if it turned out a couple of years down the line it turns of Hickman is a bit of a bigot.
>>127227146>fascism>rejection of modernismfascism IS modernismwho's the retard who came-up with this?
>>127236921Or, Hickman was right and tried to show a valuable message in today's society "Just because you've been oppressed, it doesn't mean you get to be a dick".
>>127236446I don't see it as being that different from a racist/general xenophobe almost getting with someone who's from the specific group they don't like. And...isn't the guy flipping out the bad guy in that scene? I don't see the problem if he's being cast in a negative light.
>>127236921I have yet to meet a person who hasn't turned out to be a bit of a bigot when you dig deep enough.
>>127236981>Fascism is modernism Dude what the fuck? >>127237000Nope, dude's just a plan pseud. Remember his great Avengers saga was "Doom figures out what's wrong (because he's Doom) beats the Beyonders off-screen and that's a satisfying story".Hickman genuinely has no idea how to write a good story. >>127237004I think the issue was that it was the only purpose Rahne had within the context of the story, dying to make Logan and Scott feel sad and he was trying to be "edgy" without saying anything. >>127237023Nah, I'm not talking about "Oh they have some prejudices". I'm talking about David Cage tier shit.
>>127236805That's just Cyclops using his smarts to make the X-Men look good. He has the charisma and people skills to manipulate normies. Like many cult leaders, Cyclops have Jean, Emma, Storm and mutants chicks doing his work.
>>127237117>David Cage tier shit.what does this mean?
>>127236638Don't forget these powers are pretty easily replicatable and transferable, if someone figures out how to restart the Spider-Island shit without the whole were-spider thing than it's curtains for mutants
>>127236981>fascism IS modernismYou're retarded, one of the constant core things fascists do is go "Look at how things are now a days, things were much better back in the day, join with us and we'll put things back" Fuckers constantly appeal to nostalgia from jerking off the 50's to Imperial Germany
>>127237125>Storm has an actual cult
>>127236805You know what the best part in all this is. Back when Scott was an evil, racist that was worse than Hitler he was obtaining a broad base of HUMAN support for his actions against anti-mutant elements. And this was under BENDIS of all fucking people, unbelievable
hits a lot of Emilio Gentile's definitions as well
>>127237309Someone has completely ignored Italian futurism and the great Chin Man Mussolini
>>127237185You don't know about David Cage and how he got caught? It's fucking hilarious.So after years of saying "I support LGBT rights" and "I support women", people found out that he said> “in my games, all women are whores”> “at Quantic Dream, we do not make games for fags.”Then after he was caught, dude threw and tantrum and ran out the courtroom in tears. >>127237529If I had decent photoshopping skills, I would do a collage of the times that Krakoa followed the criteria of fascism
>>127237583>dude threw and tantrum and ran out the courtroom in tears.no, I did not know that that is honestly fucking ver funny coming from french idiot David cage.
>>127237529I think these ones hit closer than Eco's ,fuckers hit every single one of Gentile's points
>>127237529>a culture founded on mystical thought and the tragic and activist sense of life conceived of as the manifestation of the will to power, on the myth of youth as artificer of history, and on the exaltation of the militarization of politics as the model of life and collective activity;if the X fits...
>>127237362Jews hate Scott because they could not self insert as him or understand how he got the women.
Umberto Eco just wrote 14 vague points that anyone can use to call anything fascist.
>>127237583>If I had decent photoshopping skills, I would do a collage of the times that Krakoa followed the criteria of fascismSounds like a great autism project especially if you send it to Marvel as a big "fuck you"
>>127236886He's pretty much cosplaying as Ultimate Reed Richards.Right, does anyone know if there's any sentient brain tumors in 616? I mean Krakoa's basically an Organic version of the City.
>>127237712>Jews hate Scott because they could not self insert as him or understand how he got the women>Book written by a Jew had bitches getting wet at his presenceDid you even think this post through
>>127237735Hickman really isn't as creative as I thought he was at first...
>>127237712Jews like Scott and the original team made by Lee/Kirby more than Claremont's fanfiction characters
>>127237730Yeah, I'm autistic enough to try it, not skilled enough to actually pull it off.
>>127237712do Jews not Heinlein books then? since reading most books by him would answer that question.
>>127237777It would also require reading the entire status quo and I wouldn't wish that on anyone
>>127237762Unironically, just read Carey's Marvel work if you want to know where Hickman gets the majority of his ideas from. Hickman is to Carey what Johns is to Alan Moore.
>>127237753>>127237767>>127237781New York City Jews like Scott because he's a cool big bro. He's not a wuss like George Soros or the Bankers
>>127227146>unintentionallyHAVE YOU NEVER READ AN X-MEN BOOK PUBLISHED IN THIS CENTURY
Remember that time when the X-men were literally letting a government agency turn their grands into an internment camp?
>>127237805>Carey's Marvel workwhat has he done besides x-men and captain Britain at marvel?
>>127227572>his use of Magneto is just too on the nose for it to be unintentionalHickman really is dumb as shit tho>>127237735>does anyone know if there's any sentient brain tumors in 616?Cassandra Novaliterally didn't have a body, just psychicd herself into some meat or something>>127236737that's what they did with people who talked back to them in AvX, except instead of a disgusting living island they sent them to actual hellthat was 9 years ago
>>127237897>Remember that time when the X-men were literally letting a government agency turn their grands into an internment camp?You mean a reservation.
>>127237309what this anon >>127237536 said. the guy severely underestimates the influence futurism had on Fascism as an ideology. i also think he puts too much emphasis on traditionalism as a defining feature of Fascism, as they have typically portrayed themselves more as revolutionaries than reactionaries. i think you might be confusing some other authoritarian movements with Fascism in this regard, since Fascists generally see certain traditions as limiting the states potential and functionality(which are seen as being the utmost good). aside from those points, however, i will admit that it's a decent definition of Fascism, aside from the enemy is both strong and weak, which i think is a misunderstanding on the writer's part. still, it does cover many of it's most crucial aspects such as the cult of action.
>>127237914Ult FF is his other big one which Hickman also takes a LOT from.m
>>127236805Do you think they did this to "own the alt right?" without realising the implications of doing so? It's as if Moviebob was suddenly given the keys to write the story he wants and he writes everything he wished he could do in his Twitter diatribe because "pissing off the mayoghouls is the only thing worthwhile".
>>127237897What a blatant fucking lie X-fag
>>127237362Times have changed, and changed quickly. Bendis was playing to the post-Occupy audience, so his X-Men run is full of vague talk about revolution with no actual plan, and widespread normie human support for the X-Men.Hickman and the other modern writers are playing to modern audiences, so it's a minority/gay power fantasy about having your own master race ethnostate that's constantly flexing on the rest of the world, where you get to be transgressive and break cultural norms, and there are no consequences for your actions.
>>127238027>Do you think they did this to "own the alt right?No they take swipes like today's CHUD comment but for the most part it's your second point>It's as if Moviebob was suddenly given the keys to write the story he wants and he writes everything he wished he could doThis is the thing, they're deep down authoritarian types so long as the dictatorship is for them and their wants
>>127227146>Did the Socialists accidentally become Nazis
>>127238073So would it be fair to say that Modern X Men represents current left wingers especially since unlike Alt right comics, it has the backing of a powerful corporation?
>>127238073Christ Hickman and his usurpers are actually making me want Bendis back. Can we get vauge talk of revolution, wide spread human support but also the super tech and plans to drag man and mutant into the future but without all the retarded racism and authoritarianism on the mutant side
>>127237536Mostly because Italy was a fucking joke in ww2
>>127238143Do we really have to do the "finger pointing at the other side while pretending our shit doesn't stink" thing instead of just coming together and shitting on the X-men, X-writers and X-fags for turning fash
>>127238073Yeah, it's the big thing with a lot of writers today. They don't exactly have a lot going for them in terms of politics or big ideas. They're very "Capitalism needs more girlbosses" and the "Right people need to be in charge".
>>127238187Depends. I'm all for it, but a lot of comic fans are eating this shit up like it's the greatest thing ever.
>>127238155If you go down the list of notable fascist countries in history, its basically Germany, Italy and then the rest. That like thinking the only example of communism is the soviet union.
>>127238143Don't fucking point at left-wingers for this shit. The people that eat this shit up are fascists that want their people to be in charge.>>127238149>Christ Hickman and his usurpers are actually making me want Bendis back.Don't say that, don't you ever fucking say that. I don't give a fuck how much of a burning diaper fire Marvel is at the moment, but don't ever say shit like that.
>moira's first life was actually pleasant and she died surrounded by her loved ones in old age>there's no sentinels crushing her under their boots>no angry civvies filling her with leadmaybe the moral of this is that the world (and muties) would be better off without her interfering
>>127238444Don't forget Italy started it first, with the Nazis following in their footsteps soon after.
>>127238444They like to say that Franco wasnt a real fascist because he was successful
>>127238449I'm going to point at left-wingers at this shit, because if it was anyone else that pulled this shit, you would be quick to point fingers.
>>127238449Tbh, I don't see alt-righters eating this slop either. So I don't know WHICH fascists you are talking about.
>>127238513German Autism ruined the whole thing
I just feel if it was actually fascist 4chan would love it
Wasn't there a pretty big difference in Italian fascism and German fascism in terms of how they saw race? Like Italians saw themselves more as a re-emergence of the Roman Empire whereas Germans it was all about biological race? Legit asking, I know I might sound dumb as shit right now.
>>127227146Wasn't X-Men a stand in gor black people in america or gay people in america of 1950s or some shit? So X-Men being fascist heaven in 2021 is just projection of gay and black people power in usa. It's fine.
>>127238522Yeah everyone kinda pretends Spain stopped existing after they settled the new world. I blame WWI and WWII and their non-activity for their lack of focus in today's histories class.
>>127238732That wasn't really focused on as much until the Claremont years. Magneto was a straight up baddy with no connection to the holocaust in the original Lee/Kirby run.
>>127227146>unintentionallyThey don't want to promote nominal fascism, but they want to promote the same content under a different name, done by their political team.
>>127238683>he still thinks all of 4chan boards agree with each otherHow about you fuck off
>>127237536Benito "Muh Roman Successor State" Mussolini? The man who jerked off Ancient Rome every chance he got?
>>127238705Pretty much, yeahMussolini had a Jewish secretary and the fezzes were adopted from the OttomansIl Duce talked mad shit about German race theory early on tooAn alliance between the two was never a certain thing
>>127238529If anyone else pulled this shit it'd be business as usual
>>127238449>Don't say that, don't you ever fucking say that. I don't give a fuck how much of a burning diaper fire Marvel is at the moment, but don't ever say shit like thatYeah, you're right, lets not say shit we'll regret later
>>127235204The problem with this plan is that once the people who began the plan die off, those who proceed them will decide to use the power and resources for their own plans, which will no-doubt be sinister or at least selfish and tyrannical in nature.There are institutions and indeed entire nations who did exactly this.
>>127238791Oh please, every European power since the collapse of the Western Roman empire have claimed to be their successor. Hell even Russia claimed to be their successor or else do we forget that etymology of tzar from czar from cesear. Or the Neo-Roman style of American architecture that the founders embraced.
>>127238865The British Empire outclassed them in every conceivable way for a period of time.
Pretty sure the average reader is not supposed to agree with what the X-men and Krakoa are doing by design.If I guess right, the end of this whole Krakoa arc is going to wind up looking like Logan's Run when one or more of the og X-Men (hopefully Nightcrawler) wake up to how fucking awful this whole "Utopia" they've built really is and goes on the run as the entire thing collapses under the weight of it's own decadent hubris.
>>127238683There's a good chunk that does, hell I'm pretty sure use haters are a vocal minority
>>127238862Hey look at you, you've summer up how every single problem with human society has come about
>>127238893It's a bit harder to claim to be a successor of the British Empire when they were still around now, isn't.
>>127238862Well for the mutants, there isn't that problem. They conquered death. Once they get old and grey, they come back young and fit. the plan can endure as the plan makers do.
I miss when they were actual super heroes.
>>127238862Someone said it earlier, the writers are the type that think the problem isn't the system but the people running it. It's a dumbass worldview that lets authoritarians get into power
>>127238951Didn't the cancerverse happen the last time they conquered death?
>>127238936They did it to the Romans in the Middle Ages
I feel like this kind of UTOPIA would have been the exact kind of thing the X-men would have fought against in the past.
>>127238896>Pretty sure the average reader is not supposed to agree with what the X-men and Krakoa are doing by design.But it's been obvious for years that the average reader is a characterfag or teamfag who will blindly support what /theirguys/ are doing, no matter how villainous it may seem to anyone else. X-Men books in particular have trained the readers to accept anything the mutants do as necessary because muh extinction, a lot of the self-inserter fans have been radicalized as much as the characters. Some of the writers seem to be blind to Krakoa having any flaws at all, too.
>>127239032This is the second time they've tried to essentially make a nation state for themselves.
>>127227146>Rejection of ModernismAI have been fucking over mutants for decades, including at least one future Moira experienced. It's not like they don't have technology, either; they just reject AI, and a lot of tech like transportation has been replaced by something better, like the gates.>Disagreement is treasonWe see a lot of mutants freely living outside of Krakoa without issue. The door is open for people to come and go. We saw people object to the clone rule and it eventually got overturned.>Appeal to Social FrustrationExcept this frustration is legit, they have decades of proof. This isn't obscuring the truth or anything, they are always attacked and persecuted no matter what.>Obsession with a plotMost people don't know about Moira, and the Council have been subverting her since the beginning>Enemy is strong and weakObjective facts. Individually they are weak, but have systems in place to genocide mutants. But they still teach that human lives are to be protected because they can't be revived, and keeping them safe is a cardinal rule in their society. >Contempt for the weakOnly some people did this, and it was a bad thing. Nightcrawler fought and dismantled this way of thinking once he saw it.>Fear of differenceSome people shit on mutants, but the vast majority of them seem indifferent. Humans are allowed on the island as a +1, and Krakoa has chosen to try co-existence (at an arm's length) over hurting humans.I'm not even going to go through the rest, but a lot of these are just ignoring context, willfully misinterpreting things or straight-up lying. Krakoa does have some seedy aspects, but to act like it's fascist propaganda is ridiculous and shows that you probably just get your information second-hand from a YouTuber.
>>127238985I specified the collapse of the Western Roman Empire for a reason
>>127239069Yeah but even their LA shit wasn't this retarded and you could blame a lot of it on there being only 200 mutants.
>>127238936I mostly agree. My point was more that the British Empire at its peak had a legitimate argument for the claim they were the successors.
>>127239098The Romans living in Rome didn't have any interest in the "Holy Roman Empire" either
>>127239190I am not certain to agree. Certainly they were fair more successful, but overwhelming power does not make them a roman successor. And while rome did have it's share of influence I wouldn't dare to say it is the largest of the influences in the founding of the British empire. But I am not a roman scholar and I am even less a British one
>>127239085Krakoa going around the council has proven that the entire thing cannot be trusted as whatever decision they make, ultimately it can be subverted by a smug fucking tree that wants to kill more Humans. This makes the gates and everything related to the organic part of Krakoa, which is fucking most of it, extremely suspicious and untrustworthy.These fascists have multiple times tried to kidnap mutant children, even notable ones like Molly and Reeds brood. Argument with the Fantastic Four? who cares, mutant kids means their 'non-Mutant' parents get no say. The only reason Xavier even stopped the latter issue because he apparently decided the boy was never a Mutant afterall and thus never welcome on the island.
>>127239085>AI have been fucking over mutants for decades, including at least one future Moira experienced. It's not like they don't have technology, either; they just reject AI, and a lot of tech like transportation has been replaced by something better, like the gates.As pointed out, they reject everything human. There is no nuance to it at all. >We see a lot of mutants freely living outside of Krakoa without issue. The door is open for people to come and go. We saw people object to the clone rule and it eventually got overturned.We don't but please do go on>Except this frustration is legit, they have decades of proof. This isn't obscuring the truth or anything, they are always attacked and persecuted no matter what.A lot of their attackers are ON that fucking island you dumb shit. Sinister, the Acolytes, Exodus, Magneto, Mystique, Cortez and his crew of rich kids, the Hellfire Club etc. They are only appealing to the "Fuck all Humies" frustration. >Most people don't know about Moira, and the Council have been subverting her since the beginningLiterally Krakoa's whole thing has been "The humans have been keeping us done and keeping us from our natural state>Objective facts. Individually they are weak, but have systems in place to genocide mutants. But they still teach that human lives are to be protected because they can't be revived, and keeping them safe is a cardinal rule in their society. Exodus literally taught kids to view humans with contempt, and that they deserve to go extinct. >Only some people did this, and it was a bad thing. Nightcrawler fought and dismantled this way of thinking once he saw it.The whole society is predicated on that,. The Crucible is about killing yourself, proving your "strength" and if you don't then you're "weak", which SWORD pointed out. >Krakoa has chosen to try co-existence (at an arm's length) over hurting humans.Objectively wrong. They legit view humans as scum that need to be replaced.
>>127239348The best/worst thing is that the Pretender stuff is fucking nonsense. Franklin "changed himself" to make himself a mutant which makes him unworthy... while Sinister is parading in a literal skin suit. It's so fucking dumb.
>>127239069>Asteroid M: 1991 - Magneto proclaims his villain lair is now a mutant nation, demands recognition, threatens the world with stolen nuclear warheads and brainwashed X-Men. Cortez betrays Magneto, hacks a weapons satellite to destroy the asteroid.>Avalon: 1993-1995 - Magneto rebuilds the wreckage of Cable's space station into Avalon, a new mutant nation in space, but only for those chosen by him, and verified Legacy Virus-free, it ends up just being Magneto's Acolytes. Avalon is destroyed in a battle between Exodus and Holocaust.>Genosha: 1999-2001 - Magneto blackmails the UN into giving him a nation, he rules it like a tyrant, crushes all human and mutant resistance, exiles the human population, tries to start WW3, the nation gets destroyed by Cassandra Nova's Sentinels, the mutants blame Bolivar Trask.>Utopia: 2008-2012: The X-Men and Namor raise Asteroid M out of the ocean and proclaim it a mutant nation, at first Norman Osborn convinces the world it's a mutant internment camp. After the X-Men help defeat the Phoenix Five and liberate the world from them, the mutants abandon Utopia.>New Tian: 2017 - Hydra Cap gives the mutants San Francisco to turn into their own city-state, secretly ruled by Emma, with Xorn as the public figurehead, any humans who refused to leave their homes are oppressed. After Hydra are defeated, the mutants abandon New Tian.>Krakoa: 2019-???? - Moira is still alive, was secretly a mutant all along, and convinced Xavier, Magneto and Sinister to work together to make the living island that eats mutants into a mutant nation, with death-duels, orgies and dumpster babies.
>>127227146What unintentionally? The X-Men are an evil sex cult now, the culmination of two decades of doomsday storylines that abandoned any pretense of a peaceful coexistence narrative.
>>127239422Are we talking about the actual X-men or just mutants in general? Cause if it's X-men I stand by what I said, if it's mutants then I guess I concede. I'd even add Morlocks to that as a bit of an micronation of sorts.
>>127239422>Nation gets BTFO by the bald cunt>Lets blame the dead guy
>>127239425The XMen have always been street brawlers fighting for their reputation. Comics just elevated them to Apocalypse level because the Marvel World needs something other than the Hulk to antagonize
>>127239422Magneto also had that island the russians attacked in 150i didn't know utopia was literally asteroid M lol
>>127239422Don't forget Cablestantanople.
>>127239571It's neither Holy, nor Roman or even an Empire. I don't know what the fuck it is. It's certainly more advanced than most things during medieval times.
>>127239422Should House of M be counted as well? >>127239469Even if its just the X-Men they're still on nation #3.
>>127239621>Don't forget Cablestantanople.That wasn't a 'mutant nation' though, he had humans and mutants living in peace together there.>>127239708>Should House of M be counted as well?Not really, it's basically an AU that briefly overwrote 616. If we count that, we'd have to count the Age of Apocalypse, and each iteration of the Ages of Apocalypse too.
One of the worst things to happen to the X-men is their overall insistence on being a race. Certainly there were a lot of mutants at their peak but they have no unifying nationality, no history, or even culture. A few small burgs tried to create a sense of unity but that's hardly enough to qualify a race. You just suddenly had Cyclops and Emma declaring themselves King and Queen of the Mutants and anyone who didn't want to join their island nation cult was seen as a traitor.
>>127239780AoA is a straight alt universe. House of M has a concrete creation and dissolution within 616 even if the mechanism of its existence was reality alteration. Even within the context of HoM the divergence from 616 is only a couple of decades in the past.
>>127239828The trick is to keep the marginalized outsider theme as vague as possible so the comic book nerds can self insertAnybody who says that they read X men for the civil rights/lgtbqp allegory is lying
>>127239780Cable seems like a better leader than Xavier and Magneto
>>127239890I want to argue against this but I can't really.
>>127239914Star Trek is the same way, everybody was tuning in for fun space adventures, people only bring up Roddenberry's weird utopian vision because they feel like adults shouldn't like fun Space Adventures
>>127239890Well wasn't that always the point? The x-men were whatever outsider you could think of it. It wasn't just race. And the point wasn't them going to make their own world with black jack and hookers, it was about the dead for coexistence. Integration. They fight now to save a world that fears and hates them because in the future they believe a time will come when they won't have too. The dream is dead.
>>127240151That is the point I was trying to make, yes
>>127240151Pretty much. Even Morrison pointed out that Mutants didn't just have to be real life minorities. They were reflection on how we treat the cultural other. >>127240026I'm a bit of Column A and a bit Column B. I enjoy the space adventures because of the Utopian society they are set in. If they were just regular adventures, they wouldn't be as fun. Likewise, it's what DS9 so much fun for me.
I feel like an unexplored avenue of the whole Krakoa thing is how it'd make the immortal mutants feel. Like it must be a huge relief if you're Wolverine to now have all your loved ones be as long lived as you are, you don't have to worry about inevitably living past them anymore. Also have they reconciled with the whole "immortality" but you still die aspect yet. I remember in the beginning of this Kurt was on a suicide mission and he was talking about it.
>>127240259DS9 highlighted the problems with the Federation the most, struck a nice balance
>>127240259Well the thing about Star Trek was despite however well Gene's Utopia did or didn't work the idea was that the people from it would have to deal with things that don't share those values and thus test them.>>127240310I think DS9 is a better example of federation value than it's given credit for. People like to write it off as the Non Star Trek Star Trek but it's out int he frontier that those values are needed the most even if clinging too them is more of a struggle.
>>127239890You're 100% right, but the movies, and the last 20 years of the comics have been more about the metaphor than about anything else. By this point it's hard to imagine many of the people enjoying the books now are still the straight white nerds who were the core audience back in the peak years of the 80s and 90s. And most of the ones left are probably characterfags and waifufags hoping in vain things will go back to normal one day.>>127240259By trying to make the mutants more like real minorities and giving them their own culture, Morrison directly set the books on the path towards where they are now. Once he did that, a lot of the mutant villains' talking points about them being a separate race became something everyone accepted as fact, rather than rhetoric the X-Men argued against.
>>127239901Cable actually managed to pull of Krakoa, without the racism and authoritarianism so the X-men joined up with the US government to destroy it
>>127240481I wouldn't even mind so much if the brown gay whatevers were actually buying the books. I get I can't be the primary audience forever, I made peace with that ages ago, but the people they're throwing the old fans under the bus for haven't put their money where their mouths are and yet this shit keeps going.
My biggest fear is that they'll destroy and rebuild Kraoka as many as Hulkbusters.
>>127240481>>127240538Not to get spergy but this is why I wish the Messiah trilogy actually ended with its intended conclusion instead of being forced to partially conclude with AvX. It would've been a nice jumping off point.
>>127240523Because of course they did.
>>127239422>Trask becomes pro-mutie and sacrifices his life to help them>Somehow he's responsible for the 16 million deaths caused by Xavier's unborn twinFucking muties. Every time it seems like they've reached the lowest low, they somehow reach an even lower low.
>>127240481>By trying to make the mutants more like real minorities and giving them their own cultureSee I don't think they did that. A lot of people say that Hickman is just following on in Morrison's footsteps, but he really isn't. Morrison whole thing was about how there was no mutant culture. Riot at Xavier/Planet X was about the ridiculousness of the "Us vs Them" mentality that the X-Men franchise had really was.Hickman is only considered the "successor to Morrison" because braindeads think that their styles are the same and because Hickman references Morrison as a major influence.
>>127240755>Morrison whole thing was about how there was no mutant culture.Not sure I'd agree with that. His run is very much about mutants as an emergent culture, he just didn't do any of the work to establish what that culture was. Hickman and his crew are doing the work to give mutants their own culture, it's just weird, alien and evil.
>>127241025Well like you said, when Morrison did it it was EMERGENT. People living in close proximity coming up with new art forms and the like. It wasn't like now were all of a sudden mutants need their own religion.
>>127240755Morrison also outright based the relationship between mutants and humans on, superficial, aspects of real world minority/majority interactions, and basically requires mutants to be a unified "Other" in context. >>127240676The answer is simple, Bolivar Trask is the 616 version of the Sam Hyde meme.
>>127241116Morrison didn't do it at all. He talked a big game, but never showed it. The people who actually delved into that were Milligan and Hine, and their takes on mutant culture were pretty much exactly the same as mainstream culture. The issue with "mutant culture" is that mutants aren't a unified whole due to the nature of their mutations on top of the differences that would arise from local and individual issues.
>>127241116I think there is also something else to consider. Morrison got that class, race and upbringing effected culture. Hell even fucking Claremont got that. Groups like the Hellfire Club had totally different values to the Morlocks, Morlocks to the X-Men etc. Mutant culture was less of a "unified single culture" under the pen of Morrison and more akin to a collection of subcultures that are growing. Claremont was the same as well. Hickman genuinely doesn't get that imo. He is one of those freaks who genuinely think that if someone is gay, they'll automatically connect with other gay people, if they're black, they'll connect with black people, based off "otherness" alone.
>>127241228>and basically requires mutants to be a unified "Other" in context.This is one of the big problems that's been killing the books since Morrison. The X-Men had one of the best rogues galleries in comics, most of the best villains are evil mutants, but the status quo permanently shifted to something that requires the mutants to be a single unified bloc, Morrison's Magneto story is about tearing down the concept of the mutant villains as old, outdated and no longer relevant. The more they pushed the minority metaphor, the more it feels like a lot of writers are afraid to have mutants be villains, or to write the supremacist mutant villains as being in the wrong in any way.
>>127241280Yeah even with the shared X-gene most mutations are wildly different. So it always really struck me as annoying when the sexy god supermodels hiding in their orgy mansions decided that anyone who didn't want a cure can go fuck themselves even if their powers are dangerous, disfiguring or down right worthless.
>>127241349I hate it too. Especially when we get stuff like "Working alongside Mr Sinister willingly". They should fucking despise each other. This is what's so loathsome about this status quo in general. It's ignoring all sorts of cultural and ideaological nuance. >This is one of the big problems that's been killing the books since Morrison>Since MorrisonLol, no. Even in M-Day, the whole thing is that mutants were not united. They hated each other and had totally different views etc. Likewise, even in the Utopia status quo, not everyone was onboard with Utopia, Utopia wasn't completely isolationist and threatening violence. This status quo is trying to say it is the culmination of a past that frankly has never existed.Also Morrison's whole thing of Planet X is the same thing that their Riot at Xavier's is.That the whole "Magneto" idea of "Us vs Them" is ridiculous. Quire and Magneto, despite being advocates for "mutants" hate and harm other mutants for not fitting "their vision".
>>127241465Didn't Beast say something along the lines of "Bitch, do I not exist all of a sudden?" after Storm very ignorantly stated that? Even Rogue's face is like "is this cunt serious?"
>>127231446>The whole thing was supposed to collapse, but the writing department found it so fun to play around with that they decided to stave that part off for later.Honestly, it'll probably keep going until the MCU reboot of the X-Men, because Marvel Comics always does half-hearted tie-ins even when they don't matter. Like Captain Marvel becoming half-Kree, or Spider-Ock getting wrapped up in perfunctory fashion for the sake of ASM2.
Krakoa in general reminds me of Force Awakens in that throughout the film, there is such a massive question of "How did we get here, how did characters regress or progress to this point and that's never fucking answered.
>>127239407mutants have a major superiority/originality complex when it comes to mutates or other metahumans*Spiderman and the X-Men #1
>>127241687Wasn't Storm inverted at the time? I think that was the explanation as to why the X-Men were so out of character in that mini. They were never like that, even at their worse in the other X-Books.
>>127241687Why did everyone suddenly hate Spider-man. They were friends for years before this. Like not to the point he was with the F4 but all the same.
>>127241687Wouldn't Ben have been a much better choice than Spider-Man? At least Ben looks like a genuine freak, but doesn't make excuses because of it.
>>127241725Because the writer wanted to write "outsider Spidey comes to teach mutants and does it way better and pisses off all the older muties"
>>127241725>>127241723Basically it was a "poor Parker, he's on his luck, let's make everyone dicks so he looks better". Also Axis had just occurred at the time, so that semi-justified why everyone were being dicks to each other.
>>127241682We got here due to constant extinctions and attempted genocide causing the X Men to become more militant. Realistically, Krakow should've happened long ago.
>>127241472Mutants weren't united in the Morrison era, but that's the run with a story that tries to kill "evil mutant supremacist villain" as a concept, so a lot of the problem does stem from there.The extinction era, from the 198 reservation to San Francisco to Utopia does have the vast majority of the mutant population acting as a single bloc, with Beast as the main dissenter who has to be wrong about everything, and some of the villains as holdouts who don't bend the knee to Scott and Emma. The Schism storyline marked the first real divide in the mutant community with actual main characters in the books not being onboard with Utopia. Krakoa is the culmination of the X-books doing mutant ethnostate stories since Utopia in 2008, and of the moves since 2001 in writing mutants in ways influenced by current-year minority identity politics, and treating them like a separate race with their own culture.Morrison's X-Men is strongly against "us vs them" conflict, but at the same time has Xavier condescending to humans, Emma teaching kids they're better than humans, Xavier and Jean willing to fight to protect Fantomex from the authorities even when they think he's a mutant terrorist. A segregated mutant ghetto was portrayed as a positive step for them.
>>127241854See even then, I disagree. Beast was def the main dissenter, but Carey's X-Men showed that not all mutants were onboard with Utopia, that there were conflicts and also the majority of the 198 were from the Xavier institute so it makes sense they agree on a lot of shit.That being said, I do agree Morrison can be argued in some ways to be somewhat of a beginning to this, but I would say that what Hickman is doing is still barely connected to what came before and it's desperately trying to convince us "Actually this is the natural conclusion" when it really isn't. Also off the top of my head on the 198, they had stillApocalypseShawSeleneSinisterMarauders Dakenas foes. So they weren't really "united" as they are in Krakoa.
>>127237246A thing from Morrisons run that no one else has ever picked up on that I really wish some would revisit is the idea that Mutants are not the only possible species that could evolve from Homo Sapiens. Cassandra Nova's whole origin is that she's a different species that evolved from humans that views mutants as competition. And in the future arc we saw a bunch of species besides mutants had evolved from Humans like those Termite people. You could do a ton of stuff with that concept.
>>127242200is it any surprise that mutants and inhumans had a short honeymoon period before they were at each others throatsalso sure the inhumans look at whatever the hell krakoa is and think they dodged a bullet
>>127242200That sounds pretty interesting, how much was explored about it during his run?
>>127242830Not that much at all. That being said, like a lot of things X-Men related, it was well done in Carey's X-Men (seriously Carey is probably the second best X-Men writer behind Claremont)
>>127237583>“in my games, all women are whores”This is why Chloe is the perfect woman.
>>127227146>unintentionallyYou really think D*sney gave up trying to destroy the X-Men just because they've got the movie rights back? LMAO
>>127236805>white supremacists say : x will not replace us.Isn't that what Tibetans say? Though they're not doing a very good job of it.
>>127243198Honestly, Hickman is the greatest franchise killer of all. He is the JJ Abrams of comics. >Kills off the Ultimate Universe>Make the Avengers and FF job to Doom in such a way that it makes them all incompetent morons and Doom "The greatest dude ever"
>>127227960>Literally anything I don't like is a sign of facism.This shit is so vague anything could be facism, just the way they like it.
>>127229539I don't think anyone could possibly do that.
>>127241725This was after One More Day, and Pete hadn't unmasked to everyone. Logan was a New Avenger, and Peter revealed his identity to the team. Thus Storm doesn't know and distrusts Spidey while Wolverine trusts him because he remembers him and everything.
>>127243466Storm never knew Spider-Man that well anyway, and never knew him as Peter, so none of that would have affected her much.
Out of curiosity, in your opinions what is the best era of X-men/and or what era had your favorite status quo for them?
>>127241840There is actually very little of that in X-Men history, most of it is post-HoM. Which causes another issue with X-Men when taken as a whole, the sliding timescale of Marvel means that the entire Decimation era plays out over a very short period chronologically. We see that students introduced during the Morrison era are still students pretty much up until Hickman takes over. >>127242200Cassandra Nova is an alien space ghost. The Children of the Vault are evolved from humanity, and the Neos are further evolved mutants.
>>127244372Chris Claremont is our god
>>127244372>>127244682Claremont is the go too for a reason, but when I was first getting attached I was reading the Lobdell and Nicesza issues. People like the harp on the 90s and I wont pretend it's not often accurate but I do like those comics.
>>127227146>Have the X-Men been unintentionally written into being authoritarians with the whole Krakoa thing?>UnintentionallyAre you high?
>>127244372I'll break it down in terms of writersClaremont eraPost House of M-Age of X (Controversial I know but hey, fuck it, it's good)Lobdell, PAD and Nicesza 90sPost Grant Morrison to M-DayFirst half of the Post AvX eraGen X is a stand out title.
>>127244898Its the ideal mix of slice of life, action, and drama.That Banshee got to hang around long after he was useless in a fight was comfy
>>127244933I mean... Hickman intended it to probably facistic as fuck, but all the other writers with the exception of Ewing and Spurrier are really like "This is the greatest thing since sliced bread"
>>127244968Right? You look at all the X-books at the time and they just had a good solid mix of direction and tone. Stuff mattered. There was a wedding. Characters coming into and falling out of relationships. Teams shuffling. Plots going on and it's like they not only knew were they wanted the book to be a year or two head of time but also what that would mean for the time after. Shit just mattered.
>>127245166Yeah, pretty much. We're entering the JJ Abrams mystery box phase of X-Men.The writers tease that eventually we'll get an interesting story and that stuff will matter... and we've found out come Inferno, that stuff never matters because the writers don't have a plan for this shit and are desperately trying to convince us that we're reading something "deep".
>>127245247Pretty much. Back then you had a lot of teases and set up but never at the expense of a current store. It feels like that for years now we've been told this shit will pay off but when will that be? And for what? Even if the ultimate climax is AMAZING (big if) it's still just a waste of time if it's all for the sake of one moment. And that's a big problem. Stories are being written for single moments but no actual momentum no actual build. There's no NOW.
Beast is the best mutant and a top 10 Marvel character, until he gets the respect he deserves I will continue hating on all X-books
>>127245166Bob Harras unironically is a great editor
>>127245166>the Storm and Kitty take a dance class together sub plotComfykino
>>127245328We really need strong editors again. Though in this day and age you can bet your bottom dollar people would start crying on twitter that WORK'S NOT FUN ANYMORE!
>>127227146Whats your ideal team for the X-Men /co/?Mines>Cyclops>Jean Grey>Storm>Beast>Wolverine>Colossus>Rogue>Gambit>Nightcrawler>Archangel>Bishop>Iceman>Sunfire>Marrow>Havok>Polaris
>>12724541290s blue and gold pretty much sums up my perfect line up.
>>127245166Got into X-men with the hickman stuff and wasnt a fan. Can you start from Claremonts era and not be confused or is it recced to just read it all?
>>127245433Pretty much yeah.
>>127245433Read Giant Size but it's a good place. You could even skip a head a bit and grab the 90s number 1 and go forward.
>>127245412>>127245423Blue & Gold is pretty based.
>>127245412Big Threats A team:>Polaris>Cyke>Havok>Colossus>Nightcrawler>Wolverine>Storm>Rogue>Gambit>Psylocke>Beast>Emma FrostComfy B team:>Strong Guy>Armor>Boom Boom>Polaris (Again)>Banshee>Kitty>Bishop>Domino
>>127245412Pryde of X-Men team is kind of decent.
What gets me about Krakoa is how much of a big fat shit it takes on so much of the rest of the world after the storyline is over. What happens to all those now dependent on Krakoan medication when the island is inevitably gone? How hard are the mutants in Mars going to job to get them out? What happens to Johnny Mutant who's bought fully into the island's ideology, is convinced he's inherently superior to humanity and that mutants are the rightful rulers of the solar system and possibly elsewhere, has gotten killed and resurrected in arena fights two dozen times and has abandoned his human name for a superhero "mutant" name once he's told that playtime is over and he has to be a normal person again?
>>127245573He gets to go screw.
>>127245302Yeah exactly. It's something that every modern "mystery" writer seems to miss. To make mystery, to make a climax happen, there most be smaller climaxes along the way until we reach the big one. All Hickman and his era encourages is"Will this happen? Will this be important?" and we learned right quick that none of it was important. >>127245352Honestly editors who like the characters and challenge the writers are underrated as fuck. >>127245412Depends. If I wanted a "Fuck yeah" team with a cool line up from the "Classic" X-Men/New Mutants I'd go with>Cyclops (Team leader)>Storm (Second in Command)>Rachel Summers (Telepath/Team Support)>Rogue (Heavy Hitter)>Wolverine (Because you need the bastard on your team)>Sunspot (Basically the financier and back up heavy hitter)>Omega Sentinel (Technology whiz etc)>Dani Moonstar (Magic connection)
>>127245412This team doesnt get the recognition it deserves.
I just don't see how you walk any of this back. There's no REDEMPTION at this scale. Unless we get some retarded twist were all the real mutants are locked underground somewhere getting tentacle raped and all this assholes were clones the whole time how are we gonna fix this?
>>127245412Thunderbird and Banshee are always lame, Sunfire is fucking bad ass but he gets treated like Banshee and Thunderbird, whhyyyy??
>>127236638>Peter alone was able to shit on the entirety of the X-MenWeren't they the only people who knew that you don't fuck around with an angry Spider-Man until Pete joined the Avengers?
>>127245660Beast has no business ever being a good guy again, for one. Unless they pull some twist where the guy putting people in concentration camps and enslaving South American countries was Dark Beast all alongCharles is even worse, but he's too iconic to write out and psychic stuff is a quick fix. That said, it's going to be dumb regardless. He's arguably *worse* than Magneto nowMoira's pre-Hickman characterization is just irredeemably ruinedStorm is going to take some elbow grease but I think she can be fixedKurt has been semi-satisfyingly fleshed out in Way of X Most of the other big names have just been simultaneously so totally OOC for the entire event and had such bland characterization that it doesn't even matter, just ignore it happened. They're going to look like huge hypocrites next time they fight Magneto, Mister Sinister, the Hellfire Club (which by extension kiiind of means the sentinels but Hickman just ignored that whole bit) or Apocalypse but whatever
>>127245817>but whateverI just can't see how you can fix this. They can't go back to being enemies with Magneto again. They can't talk about a brighter future. They're just beyond fucked over.
>>127229247Hisako was cool. I wish she got more of a spotlight. I feel like X23 completely stole her thunder.
>>127245839Frankly, I think this issue starts with the weird obsession X-Men writers have had with genocide plotlines for the past few decades rather than with Krakoa itself. Krakoa for how horrible it is is not that unreasonable of a response for the fucked up corner Marvel has written itself into where wholesale bloody-handed mutant extermination is apparently a decently popular cause all over the world and mutants experience exponentially more hate crimes than any real minority probably does IRLThe problem is that people tend to talk about these things to justify Krakoa as if these entire scenarios weren't made up. The world doing its third or fourth major mutant genocide this decade and the mutants firing back by making a weird ethnostate are both just Marvel Comics having two sock puppets beat the shit out of each other, and the situation could have been avoided if they just got better material
>>127234079>humans have always been fascistExcept for the side I support, their authoritarian actions have good intentions behind them, so they're definitely not fascist.>>127236981Fascism is anything you need it to be.
>>127246003I wish there was a Bengus X-men comic
>>127234079>the rejection of modernism has existed since Roman times>the "frustrated middle class" as a political force has existed since Roman timeshurrBesides the low-hanging fruit, you probably have a funny idea of the Roman Empire if you think most of that list applied to it to the extent it did to the Axis (the "fear of difference", for instance).
>>127236981>fascism IS modernismYou have no fucking idea what either of those words mean beyond having seen them discussed in the same context, and the fact that you can't recognize one of the most famous essays on the subject is a pretty good tell on that, even if you disagreed with Eco
>>127246141Clearly you have never read Marcus Aurelius' MeditationsModernism is anything but modern
>>127238816since when is right wing supremacy business as usual for hollywood?
>>127246562When was Hollywood formed?
>>127245839Welcome to the era of Hickman. It was the same when he wrote his Avengers. The last Avengers story was Tony and Steve failing to save the universe and deciding instead to beat the shit out of each other. Meanwhile Doom was the one "smart" enough to defeat the Beyonders and save the Multiverse (though he recreates it in his own image). Hell even Doom's defeat doesn't come because he's outsmarted or outdone. It comes because he in a fit of rage goes "Yeah, Richards would've done a better job fixing things then me" then Molecule man takes away Doom's god powers. Hickman's stories are always garbage.
>>127227146It isn't unintentional, Beast is straight up insane about the whole thing. I recall a leaked note from him in one of those text things where he talks about how people would be extatic if God came down from the heavens and said that he'd always watch over them, protect them from evil with his divine power, etc. But then if it were mutants and not God, now suddenly people hate the idea. He's basically comparing himself and his work to some kind of divine duty.Also, side note, why the fuck did they give Eye-boy energy blasts in the X-factor finale? He's already fantastic with firearms as one of his skillsets, and it isn't a logical extension to his powers anyway.
>>127228915They're actually looking into that kind of stuff from Mikhail Rasputin's perspective in X-force, dude set up his own Russian team of mutants and has been making his way through Russian politics, granted, Russia's stance on mutants is just whatever the "Writer-At-The-Time" wants, I mean, two of the members of the Winter-guard are known mutants, (Darkstar and Vanguard), but Russia is also geocoding their own mutant population, then you have the recent X-force stuff with Mikhail's group.
>>127245839I think that's the point he wanted to go for. Hickman is basically forcing the hand of all future X-men writers by making them either A: Work their asses of to retcon his changes or B: Develop a new status quo that isn't the same old mansion shtick. The problem here is he added so much future timeline shit and things like "here's a pill that lets humans live hundreds of years, btw we've eliminated disease" that it ruins other peoples not just X-men stories. Peter shouldn't ever have to take care of Aunt May now that this kind of shit exists. They've basically segregated the X-men even further from the other Marvel characters than they were before.
>>127238975Only Mutants have immortality though, unless something comes of the latest X-men issue's ending. whereas the Cancerverse was when death was removed from all races and species, so at some point Mutants could reach that point but it's gonna take them forever, also, do we know of any mutants who deal with outer gods?
>>127245817Beast hasn't done anything wrong
>>127247285>I think that's the point he wanted to go for. Hickman is basically forcing the hand of all future X-men writers by making them either>A: Work their asses of to retcon his changes or B: Develop a new status quo that isn't the same old mansion shtick.Oh boy, is that not what he did. This whole status quo is not what Hickman wanted. Apparently, we're not even Act 2 of this clusterfuck after over 200 issues. That being said, the biggest problem of all of this is his retcons fucking suck. It changes all the X-Men/Mutant characters into complete sociopaths, turned Moira/Magneto/Xavier into the biggest monsters in perhaps the entirety of the Marvel universe.He's basically turned the X-Men into the worst parts of Legion. It's awful.
>>127247331The thing this reminds of is actually the clone saga. A convulted mess that no one understand how to stop.
>>127228452the council of spiders vs krakoa? ship it
>>127247369>The thing this reminds of is actually the clone saga.that seems to be the general consensus about Krakoa and this entire period in general.
>>127229539Then why is /pol/ a brain dead dystopia then?
>>127247285>Work their asses of to retcon his changesIt's an alt-timeline. The entire Krakoa status quo hinges on alt-timelines so you wouldn't even be making that big a retcon.
>>127227146X-Men have always been a reflection of liberal politics from the beginning where it was literally a tissue thin allegory for civil rights with Super Martin Luther King Jr. butting heads with Super Malcolm X. The Utopia thing is just a reflection of modern day liberalism. It's literally just an autonomous zone like CHOP but with clones. And yes, there was authoritarian aspects to modern day liberalism. The clearest cut example of that is the hardline stance many liberals take on forcing people to be vaccinated, which is by definition authoritarianism. Keep in mind, I'm not saying liberals are baddies or evil, I'm just calling an apple an apple here.
>>127247471>from the beginning where it was literally a tissue thin allegory for civil rights with Super Martin Luther King Jr. butting heads with Super Malcolm XYou should go and actually read Silver Age X-Men because any comparison to real world minorities is at best superficial and comparing Xavier and Magneto to MLK and Malcolm X is deeply insulting to latter. The minority angle shows up with Claremont and didn't use it consistently. It gets less prominent during the 90s and only becomes a defining element of the franchise with the 2000s with Morrison and the original film trilogy. You can go back and find Stan Lee interviews where he specifically talks about the creation of the X-Men and how they were primarily driven by wanting to tap into the sense of alienation and misunderstanding that comes with adolescence (the primary audience of comics in the '60s) with the added bonus not needing origin stories for everyone. Pretty much every instance where he talks about the X-Men and civil rights comes from after it became prominent element of the comics.
>>127234079Societies in the Americas and Australia never had this shit yet had great cities like Tenochtitlan.White people are dummies.
>>127227960Why did you click on machismo anon?
>>127247471X-Men are a reflection of humankind both left and right wing. Because both sides of the conflict are the same
>>127247556I have read those comics and you're being either willfully ignorant or intentionally deceitful to try and claim that the whole thing isn't political commentary. I also don't care if you find the very obvious comparison insulting. It doesn't bother me in the least bit, and I'm clueless as to why you think I'd care about your feelings getting hurt. But the cherry on top is you trying to quote Stan Lee like he had any creative input on any comics and wasn't just stealing the credit and money from the actual creators. His opinion doesn't matter, and neither does yours.Don't reply to me again, because nobody is going to read it, least of all me.
>>127247586I'm just going to post this picture of Famous Dex and let you parse the meaning.
>>127241776Logan is legit really close to Pete, hell Ben and Logan don't seem to really like each other that much
>>127247752>Logan is legit really close to PeteWhy? Peter hates killers, he dogs on Punisher every chance he gets because he's a killer.>hell Ben and Logan don't seem to really like each other that muchBen likes almost everybody unless you're a supervillain like Doctor Doom, how is it so bad that fucking Ben Grimm of all people doesn't like you?
>>127247827>Why? Peter hates killers, he dogs on Punisher every chance he gets because he's a killerThey've somewhat close since the Wolverine vs Spiderman mini and the New Avengers era pushed them closer like nothing before they're consistently teaming up to the point that there have been several times where one has come to the aid of the other on request. While with Ben and Logan almost every time they meet it starts with a fight not to mention Logan fucking disfigured him
>>127246587it's not remotely right wing supremacist these days
>>127236737But only sometimes, anon - if you're cute they'll just PRETEND to drop you in the nightmare hole and then send you on your way!
>>127248075Orphan Maker is screwed.
>>127248075>the nightmare holeSo... what is it, exactly?
>>127248450If X-men green is anything to go by it's like a dark cell inside of Krakoa made out of the island itself.
>>127227146Can the mutants leave Earth? We'll keep Kurt, Laura, and Magneto's kids.
>>127246214alright then, why don't you tell me what those words then so i can get a better handle on it?
>>127228058Who is this qt?
>>127248366Orphan Maker is either a child or a developmentally disabled man, and either way the fact he was (a) on the Sinister murder squad* in the first place and (b) probably going to get Holed is another point on the "what is wrong with these people" score. *as opposed to the other, more wholesome, black ops groups Krakoa runs.
>>127248486A hole in the ground doesn't sound very remarkable. What's with the tentacles?
>>127248600keeps them in living stasis, fully aware but unable to move, also traps you in drug induced personal hell, I assume the tentacles are for utility and /d/ related purposesseems krakoa is into bara by the way he took sabertooth and let nature girl off
>>127248450Krakoa's more humane prison system. Instead of a concrete cell where you spend 23 hours a day you get a you sized hole in the ground where you're kept awake and aware 24/7 365 unable to move or speak. Best part is your sentence is as long as the higher ups deem appropriate. But hey at least they let you see all your friends and family as they march you through the entire island letting everyone know your crimes
>>127248689at least you get to defend yourself in front of a kangaroo court of your favorite psychics
>>127239780>he had humans and mutants living in peace together there.Absolutely disgusting.making Moira, the X-Men's most consistent, longest lasting human friend into a mutant just reinforces how racist/speciest the current status quo is. They never had a human friend, and they never will
>>127239422>Hop in RICHARDS! The race war is on!
>>127239422you forgot the multiple colonial projects that mutants have tried and failed in the savage lands
>>127248863>making Moira, the X-Men's most consistent, longest lasting human friend into a mutant just reinforces how racist/speciest the current status quo is. They never had a human friend, and they never will
>>127247437Because while /pol/ claims to like facism they aren't actually fascist.Also not all fascist states are utopias. But all utopias are fascist.
>>127249598even Plato's utopia was hellish if you think about it
>>127245247>We're entering the JJ Abrams mystery box phase of X-Men.To be fair, that's been part of the books since Claremont, they just used to be better having a plan, or at least making it look like they had a plan until the finally came up with one.
>>127245328For better or worse, I feel like Harras and Powers were the last X-Men editors who actually understood what X-Men is meant to be, no matter how much Harras and Claremont disagreed on the directions specific characters should go in.>>127245352Every book needs an strong editor who can tell a writer when his ideas are bad, and reject them. In modern times an editor like that would probably be fired for bullying within a day.
>>127245937>I think this issue starts with the weird obsession X-Men writers have had with genocide plotlines for the past few decadesI think a big part of the problem is how many fans loved the Decimation era, and constantly hype it up as one of the best periods in X-Men comics, so Marvel learned you like extinction stories, and they keep doing them because of it. As with anything else they overdo, it'll take them a long time to work out fans are sick of it.
>>127248497>and Magneto's kids.>kidsLorna and Onslaught?
>>127239422same shit different take mutants deserved all pain and suffering
>>127245090Ok, so long as we agree Hickman knew what he was doing, because I was pretty sure Magneto flat out laid it all out there multiple times.
>>127227146...most of the points in your post straight up don't apply. Krakoa is obviously meant to be morally ambiguous, as it acts like a nation-state, but most of your list is just stuff you've pulled out of your ass. There's been no "you're not a true mutant!" talk, for example, and half the run seems to be concerned with attempts at reaching out or making peace.I think the only things on this list that actually apply are the ones concerning the crucible.
Has Krakoa's magic disease-ending pill actually been referenced in other non-X books? It's a huge shake-up to the entire MU, indeed the whole point is that world is now dependent on the mutants in a very literal sense, but have we actually seen its effects across the line? Seems like something that should have shaken up the Spider books since they deal with old, sickly or wounded people relatively often.
>>127250027I think he means Wanda and Pietro
>>127250807Not widely. In fact, for the most part, a lot of the weird incongruities in how Krakoa acts seem to come from books outside the line having their own interpretations of it that they push. IIRC Runaways basically made up its own rules for Krakoa that were wildly different from what the X-books are like.Honestly, I think one of the biggest issues with modern cape comics is how catty writers seem to be with one another.
>>127250807I'm starting to suspect marvels editors collaborate/communicate as well of DC's
>>127250807I amazed none of the X-men have thought to resurrect normal humans killed by mutants like the grocery guy as a recompensation peace token
>>127243268This was all groups that fear forced demographic replacement say… and they’re nearly always justified.
>>127251681They did that for Wanda but the big kicker is, where the hell are the memories gonna come from. You can rez that dude but he's not gonna be even close to the same person.
>>127252734>>127251681They wouldn't be a person at all. Without the backup it will be just a soulless husk.
>>127247567The Aztec triple alliance killed itself because it was caught in a doomloop where it kept needing to conquer just to exist but that had the side effect of having rebellions all over the place. It was fundamentally unstable
>>127245412X-Men>Cyclops>Jean Grey>Storm>Beast>Wolverine>Colossus>Rogue>Gambit>Nightcrawler>Archangel>Bishop>Iceman>Sunfire>Marrow>Psylocke>Shadowcat>JubileeNew Mutants>Warlock>Mirage>Karma>Magik>Wolfsbane>Magma>Cypher>Cannonball>HotspotX-Factor>Havok>Polaris>Strong Guy>Multiple Man>ForgeBrotherhood>Magneto>Mystique>Sabertooth>Juggernaut>Blob>Avalanche>Pyro>Toad>Quicksilver>Scarlet Witch
>>127244497"Space Ghost" is a retcon (that subsequent authors ignored) by a later writer who misunderstood a line of dialogue about how shi'ar believe everyone has an evil twin they fight before birth. As for the children of the vault, eh, they're more like cyborgs/tech based than an actual alternative evolution. And the writers have never used them as anything not indistinguishable from mutants or any other super-powered person.
>>127250853>Honestly, I think one of the biggest issues with modern cape comics is how catty writers seem to be with one another.Look at stories from back in Jim Shooter's day. Writers have always been like that, they just don't have anyone keeping them in line anymore, nobody playing tard wrangler and trying to make them behave like adults.
>>127248580>as opposed to the other, more wholesome, black ops groups Krakoa runs.Jesus. You're completely correct, so don't take it as an insult when I say your post made me facepalm irl.
>>127248863>>127249131Here, try this on for size: remember how Legion's mother knows his newest figment isn't actually Xavier's ghost because it doesn't know what Xavier said to her upon Legion's birth? "Thank you."? Remember how that moment of catharsis defeats that figment and lets Legion feel the love of both his parents? Remember how tragic it is that his mother is then shot? The Krakoan retcons mean that Xavier never actually gave a shit about Legion's mother, only got with her to breed with her as part of a program, and was thanking her like he would thank a convenience store clerk for handing him his change while he bought a sandwich.
>>127250807>Hey Mary Jane! Want some Mutie drugs?! >Coffee is fine, thanks. Based MJ.
>>127237735>>127236737ngl, I thought for a split second, "How the fuck did Maker get on Krakoa?"and then I was like "Well, it's Maker, he'd would asspull something. And then I actually thought and remembered it's Xavier.
>>127255753you can be forgiven for mistaking any of the X-Men for villains these days
>>127249914Here is the difference imo. Claremont still told stories and had an overrall direction. Hickman is basically the dude(s) who write LOST in the whole "Will this be important, will this matter, can you see where the plot MIGHT go" but he can't write a "story" like Claremont to save his life.
>>127255320It's not a good sign when a country has three separate black ops squads all of whom operate independently and unknown to each other. Better writers would have had them on separate sides of a conflict at one pointImagine the Marauder's teaming up with a mutant friendly rebel group about to depose a dictator while X-Force is trying to kill them because Krakoa has a treaty with the dictator who's been helping them out with Russia/China
>>127227146You know what annoys me?Once this Krakoa horsehist ends, the writers are gonna go "uwu, the mutants didndu nuffin, let's all just ignore this period while they've derailed other stuff so that we can write about them being victims still and ignore how we wrote this fucked up shit in the first place please"
>>127254785Emma and Magneto are better as villains.Quetin sucks.Doctor Nemesis is cringe.
>>127256409give this man an event!maybe you should send this question to the x-men monday at adventures in bad taste or whatever it is called?
>>127250757shhhhh... don't ruin /co/'s narrativeday without screeching about politics is a day wasted
>>127255462The retcon makes Moira, Xavier and Magneto the evilest people in the Marvel universe bar none. They are the real TOBA. Imagine all the horrid shit they let happen to mutants, humans and super humans all the lives they let get end all to radicalize mutants. Seriously Hickman turned every single good wholesome moment (what few left other hacks haven't sullied) and made them suspect. One of the most impactful X-men moments for me was this one where after a massive Shi'ar arc Professor X finally gets his legs working again temporarily, and he's just enjoying being able to walk for the first time in years playing basket ball with Jubilee, and the issue ends with her breaking down watching Xavier slowly loose his legs again. Now that's fucking ruined
>>127245839Why the fuck /co/ is obsessed with Magneto being a straight-up villain of the x-men?
>>127256531Krakoa so fundamentally taints the characters that they might actually be unsalvageable without anything short of a FULL universal reset, none of that Moira shit, after this is all done, and even then some of the stink will probably remain.
>>127247422on /co/ sure. everywhere else the reaction is the opposite. but then again, it's not like /co/ likes comics
>>127256838>The retcon makes Moira, Xavier and Magneto the evilest people in the Marvel universe bar nonehow? please no banal bullshit, but concrete answers
>>127250757>Krakoa is obviously meant to be morally ambiguous>Moral ambiguity means acting like stupid evil morons
>>127257071>Moral ambiguity means acting like stupid evil moronsagain, how are they acting evil?
>>127257052They have concrete knowledge of all the awful shit that goes on in universe and just fucking lets it happen to allow the radicalization of mutants, if not them tinkering behind the scenes to make sure it happens right.
>>127257105What a fucking brainlet take. I guess that Tony Stark is also pure evil, and Captain America as well. Maybe all marvel heroes are pure satan then
>>127257133After Hickman's run yeah they're pretty fucking evil for some of the shit they did or allowed to happen you dumb faggot
>>127257133Which Tony Stark? He hasn't been alive since the 90s, and every Tony that's taken his place has been some form of simalcrum, body double, old brain scan, and AI in a skin suit.
>>127257160This is actually a weird interpretation. They have some knowledge, and they do try to change some of the outcome, but you can't literally change every single little bad thing. You ever heard of butterfly effect? They do try to optimize but so far it seems like the outcome is always the same. And they do try to fix things and improve the worldAnd again, name one evil thing that they do. Not some pseudo moral verbal diarrhea, unless you want to explain to me why Reed Richards didn't cure AIDS and Cancer
>>127257179>implying it matters
>>127257205Aw fuck off faggot I'm not wasting my time on a pedantic fuck who's gonna try and find a way to pick apart any argument. You obviously have your strong opinion and I have mine
>>127243270He does seem to have the reverse midas touch, it's incredible how many even here still proclaim him as comic book royalty.
>>127256973Because going from a character attempting worldwide genocide every 5 seconds and even killing hundreds of thousands of people, if not millions, on multiple occasions to being buddy buddy with his former arch enemies is incredibly jarring.It's the same reason why people don't buy Steven Universe or Naruto talking genocidal maniacs who committed completely heinous crimes into being their friends.
>>127257273Thing is, your opinion is shit, and shows how little you understand either about the comics, or the world itself. I really hope that you are not underage, because you need to be 18 years old to post here
>>127257306>Because going from a character attempting worldwide genocide every 5 seconds and even killing hundreds of thousands of people, if not millions, on multiple occasionsThis is something of a stereotype as much as Jean Grey constantly dying and being revived. 60s Magneto was your typical villain, in vein of Doom. Under Claremont's writing, he was slowly being redeemed, and was actually courted for his actions. He was never genocidal either. He did fight in self-defense. Unless you think that Rittenhouse is guilty, Magneto did not do much wrong, and for the wrong things he did, he was punished as well. I am okay with Magneto occasionally fighting the x-men, but him being a full-blown villain not only misses the point, but also makes the character bland
>>127257052Okay so HOXPOX has it revealed that Moira telepathically gave Xavier all of her memories before he even started the X-Men.That means that in essence>Moira made Proteus not because she made a mistake about who she fell in love with, but because she wanted a powerful mutant son>A data pages implies that she and/or Xavier deliberately arranged for the birth of Legion, so he was born, not out of love, but to get a powerful weapon>Didn't share knowledge with any of the other X-Men leaders, instead keeping it to themselves to ensure they remain on top>They allowed for Mr Sinister to continue his crimes against humanity/mutants for years>They didn't warn the X-Men of Apocalypse, despite having concrete knowledge and knowing the massive threat that he posed. >Moira deliberately sabotaged and manipulated Legion, fucking up his medication and treatment on purpose so he would "love her" rather than his human mother>Lied to the X-Men for literal years, refused to come forward with knowledge that would help anyone other than them etc>Are implied to know about M-Day butt hey don't stop it, instead allowing it to happen>Keep up the abuse of Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch despite knowing what the consequences of that are going to beThis is only off the top of my head. There is probably so much more evil shit they did thanks to the retcon. >>127257085>Pardoning the entire Mutants rogue gallery despite a lot of them being either A. Genocidal Lunatics, B. Literally not caring about mutant suffering at all C. Actually causing more harm to mutants then humans ever did (See Sinister, Shaw, Apocalypse etc)>Setting up an unelected council that consists of a mad scientist, a religious loser, a genocidal lunatic whose philosophy is dogshit, a capitalist moron who only keeps his seat as "The Black King" because of other people's incompetence>This bullshit >>127235204>"You have new gods now">The crucible>Literally all of Excalibur and X-CorpEnough?
>>127257377>He did fight in self-defenseThe mutie cries out in pain as he strikes you.
>>127257306Bardock was a mass murderer and he got numerous spinoffs. He sees Goku as someone he can use for revenge against Frieza. The problem with X Men is that they aren't honest about the villains
>>127257377>He did fight in self-defense.Now I know you're full of shit. It figures that Magneto's fans are fucking sick in the head, because who else could support the actions of an evil, mass murdering, racial supremacist?
>>127257398In all the "evil" things you list, you keep forgetting that Chuck already had a son in the first life of Moira, and all the other things you mentioned already happened, before Chuck met Moira for the first time.>Moira deliberately sabotaged and manipulated Legion, fucking up his medication and treatment on purpose so he would "love her" rather than his human motherI don't remember this happeningThe whole point of HoxPox is that up to certain point in time, they had to follow the timeline as it was without change, and introduce the change at different points in time, trying to change the outcome. That's it, that's the story. You can try to overthink it. Let's also forget for a while, that HoxPox contradicts the canon>Keep up the abuse of Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch despite knowing what the consequences of that are going to beYOU CAN'T BE FUCKING SERIOUS
>>127257377>He did fight in self-defense.You're a fucking retard.Does turning off EMPs worldwide three times and killing anyone who was on a plane, on life support, using machinery, etc. be doing to him to make it justified as self defense?
>>127257515>buzzword buzzword buzzwordtry harder next time with your bait>>127257398as to your other points. what about the times when the bus full of depowered mutants was exploded? what about the times, when random mutants were being murdered for being mutant? I ignore your other, emotional points, because they make complete lack of sense. One of the reasons that the council is the way it is, was to present different and diverse views. Sure, you can reduce Exodus to "religious loser", but you keep forgetting that he was a leader for a huge branch of mutants, so ignoring him would beg for even bigger trouble. Shaw is also a person who has contacts and money, and who funded Sentinels. The "we're your gods now" is typical Magneto's speech. Still, can't blame mutants for being pissed off after decades of various genocides attempted at them. And yet, after all the shit that was done to them, they don't really do anything controversial, other than existing on their island. Of course, you can say Marauders, X-Force, and I will say CIA and FBIThe crucible is a homage to the Muir Island Saga (coincidence? probably not)Nothing wrong with Excalibur, nor X-Corp, even if the books suck
>>127257683Yes, if you know the context. But then again, I assume that Secret Avengers were also genocidal maniacs
>>127248554work on actually reading comic books more and watching netflix less
>>127257282Hickman's fans are this bit done without a bit of ironyhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-abGTw2sSk>>127257550>In all the "evil" things you list, you keep forgetting that Chuck already had a son in the first life of Moira, and all the other things you mentioned already happened, before Chuck met Moira for the first time.Actually retarded. Moira's ten lives are Life 1: Regular life where she never learns about mutants nor does there seem to be any sort of "Mutant suffering".Life 2: Dies in a plane crashLife 3: Tries to find a cure to mutants, gets murdered by the BrotherhoodLife 4: Mirrors the 616 Life, but she dies so it's bad endLife 5: She starts a nation whose mutant population the narration refers to mutants as "Man's evolutionary betters" Life 6: Lives to see the singularityLife 7: She murders ever single Trask to stop the sentinels from coming about. AI arises anyway and kills her. Life 8: She teams up with Magneto and they act like Silver Age villains. Their deaths are apparently the death bell of mutants as the X-Men are "Fools who believed in a greater human good".Life 9: She teams up Apocalypse kills the Avengers, the X-Men to take on the machinesLife 10: The current one. >I don't remember this happeningI'm not going to look for the Data Page for you, but basically she either already knew she fucked up Legion's medication/treatment and kept doing it anyway or was responsible for creating Legion and then "treated him">YOU CAN'T BE FUCKING SERIOUSYes I can, because that's literally what happened. Xavier, Moira and Magneto are implied to know that Wanda will do an M-Day, yet they still put her in the Brotherhood, where she is abused to shit by Magneto and the Brotherhood (with Mastermind and Toad legit trying to assault Wanda). They could have done things better, entrusted the future to someone else but they were assholes who thought they knew best.
>Magnetofags getting uppity and trying to excuse his war crimes because he was a jewReminder>Attack on Cape Citadel missile base, 1963>Conquest of Santo Marco, 1964>Attempted to nuke Santo Marco, 1964>Attempted to nuke New York, 1964>Led various Brotherhood attacks on the USA, 1964-1965>Attacks on international shipping using a giant magnet, 1964>Kidnapped Angel's parents to harvest for DNA to create a slave army of mutants, 1965>Attacked the UN, demanding they give him his own mutant nation, 1968>Attempted to enslave all humanity with a mind control machine, 1968>Forcibly transformed people of the Savage Land into mutates, building an army intended to conquer the Savage Land and then the world, 1969>Allied with Atlantis to invade New York, 1970>Attacked a research facility to steal an experimental power source, intent on using it to power his Universe Machine that would turn people into mutants, 1971-1972>Attempted to take control of every nuclear reactor in the USA, to irradiate the country, killing most humans and turning the survivors into mutants, 1973>Attacked the UN Building again, taking everyone hostage and demanding the world surrender to him, 1974>Attacks a SHIELD research base to kidnap and enslave the smallest man in the world, 1977>Attacked research bases in Australia and New Zealand, stealing equipment to rebuild Asteroid M, 1978>Threatens to end all life on Earth unless everyone surrenders to him, sinks a Russian submarine, killing it's crew, destroys the city of Varykino by creating a volcano inside it, 1981>Put on trial for his crimes, used a mind control device to compel a court to set him free, 1987(1/2)
>>127257778(2/2)>Attacks New York to fight Spider-Man, 1989>Causes destruction at a refinery in LA, 1990>Threatens the world with nuclear warheads, detonates a warhead over Russian airspace, attacks Genosha, 1991>Lowers a massive space station into the atmosphere, causing destructive winds, tides and storms across the world, 1993>Caused a worldwide electromagnetic pulse, shutting off all electrical equipment, killing untold numbers through plane and car crashes, hospitals losing power, etc, 1993>Murdered an old man who once created forged documents for one of his fake identities, 1998>Destroyed a building in LA just so he could bully a man into admitting to being scared of what mutants can do, 1999>Shut off all electricity worldwide again, to blackmail the UN into giving him a nation, 1999>Brutally crushed all native Genoshan resistance to his rule, human and mutant alike, 1999-2000>Oppressed humans in Genosha to drive them out of the country, 2001>About to go to lead Genosha to war against the world, only stopped by Wolverine stabbing him, 2001>Attacked LA again, 2008What's even better is that because of Marvel's sliding timeline, Magneto would have committed all of these in around 15 years.
>>127257778>>127257789>Put on trial for his crimes, used a mind control device to compel a court to set him free, 1987He had another court session laterOtherwise a massive yawn. Doc Ock has bigger body count
>>127257837Right but he should also pay for what he did so if you're comparing them then that doesn't really do Magneto any favors you know?
>>127257769>I'm not going to look for the Data Page for you, but basically she either already knew she fucked up Legion's medication/treatment and kept doing it anyway or was responsible for creating Legion and then "treated him"That's the general problem with you. You either treat this shit too emotionally, or to put in the blanks by yourself. How can you now that Chuck didn't have Legion in his first life? That's for starters - in life 1, we only know Moira's life, we don't know how Chuck's life turned out
>>127257837The difference is, Ock is still treated as a monster. He's still Spider-Man's second most important villain after Gobby.Meanwhile, Magneto isn't punished for his supremacist behavior. He's rewarded for it. The entirety of the X-Men have subscribed to his "humans good, mutants better" ideology.Characters should get what they deserve, not what they want.
>>127257778>Kidnapped Angel's parents to harvest for DNA to create a slave army of mutants, 1965That one was actually funny because it's so absurd, he somehow hypnotized them too
>>127257851Magneto also died many times, was depowered many times, hell the first time he paid by being turned into a baby, so you can easily treat it as "paying". We are not talking about real life, because if we do, then I have to ask when Captain Marvel is going for Civil War II, or Reed Richards for the prisons in negative zone. Two can play this game. There is literally not a single marvel superhero or villain that didn't do reprehensible shit
>>127257882>The difference is, Ock is still treated as a monsterThat depends on the era. Sometimes he is a monster, sometimes he is a hero. Superior Spider-Man / Octopus kinda proves that. He certainly is not typical villain either.If anything, I would say that Green Goblin is irredeemable straightforward villain, and literally nothing else
>>127257778>>127257789Remember that time Magneto got roasted by the Red Skull and his only response was to lock him up and let him die of starvation/dehydration because he was so butthurt?
>>127257789Didn’t Jean Grey wipe out a whole planet?
>>127257934Someday I wish someone too powerful for Magneto to beat put a hitler stache on the guy.Just to see his reaction.
>>127257314Eat my ass
>>127257958Fine, you asked for it. Don't wipe it, though. I like it raw
>>127257954you mean, Impossible Man?
>>127236422>They became the very thing they were made to oppose.The whole issue with Marvel mutants in a nutshell; we didn't foresee this happening in the 80s.
>>127257991He put a hitler stache on magneto?
>>127246766I miss when Beast was a big green science lug who also waxed philosophic and quoted literature. I miss him struggling to find a cure for the legacy virus and how that weighed on him.
>>127257688Not the Magneto guy, I actually liked Pre-Hickman Magneto. >Quiet Council>Diverse viewsHoly shit, you are a moron. >Attempts to genocide them>Allows the people who killed/attempted genocide on the island because guess what, Apocalypse, Sinister, Selene tried genocide too>Crucible is a homage you can't criticize it for being an idiotic thingLegit retard>Nothing wrong with Excalibur and X-CorpExcalibur is literal manifest destiny garbage where Krakoa has installed a puppet king whose history is being an insane slaver and attempted rapist run things because "He's a mutant" and treats the inhabitants of Otherworld as fools who don't know how to use the land properlyX-Corp is about this "Great corporation" which employs labour practices that are morally repugnant, has a rapist running PR, Selene, a woman who worked with actual Nazis on the board. It's only been around for a while, but it's already gunning for most evil thing in Krakoa>>127257863> You either treat this shit too emotionally, or to put in the blanks by yourself.How is that emotional? Using basic logic that data page gives two options. Option A: Moira/Xavier knew about Legion already and ensured that he was born, in which case Moira knew how to treat him, but refused to do it properlyOption B: She created Legion, knew exactly what his deal was and then treated him incorrectly (if you recall in New Mutants by Claremont her treatments literally don't take into account that he has mutant powers).>>127257995Because no one was retarded enough to do this in the 80s. This whole status quo is trying to make something evil "morally ambiguous" because that's literally all of Hickman's premises.
>>127258011I would have to check, but he did mess with magneto in some annual
>>127258023>Because no one was retarded enough to do this in the 80s.We weren't. The message comic books were adamant about since like the 30s was "don't be a fucking bully" which apparently didn't take considering the modern writers.
>>127258023>Apocalypse, Sinister, Selene tried genocide tooThey never didApocalypse was creating challenges for humankind to progressSinister was doing medical experimentsSelene was feeding off the people due to her mutant powersThe only legit retard is you, who uses buzzwords and parrots someone else's opinion instead of having his own
>>127258023>How is that emotional?Because you treat these characters as if they were real. And call them lunatics, genocidal maniacs despite them not being lunatics and genocidal maniacs, but also forgetting that over 50 years of comic book history, each character goes through numerous iterations and they are rarely consistent>Using basic logic that data page gives two options.>Option A: Moira/Xavier knew about Legion already and ensured that he was born, in which case Moira knew how to treat him, but refused to do it properlyDid she have to ensure that he was born, if he already was born in previous life? What would be the point of that?>Option B: She created Legion, knew exactly what his deal was and then treated him incorrectly (if you recall in New Mutants by Claremont her treatments literally don't take into account that he has mutant powers).How would she know his deal, if she had no any data about him previously? Think anon.
>>127256409>Better writers would have had them on separate sides of a conflict at one pointEven the most basic of writers Marvel employed back in the day would have seen that idea as grounds for an obvious crossover story between those books.
>>127257924>Superior Spider-ManJust give me an alternate timeline where he stayed on, married Anna and ended up adopting brats
>>127258053Comics kinda changed in the 80s already, unless you forget characters like Cloak & Dagger. And who could forget the 90s and Ghost Rider, Punisher, and Wolverine becoming edgier?
>>127258141This, so much this. Maybe in that devil's reign spin-off it happens
>>127258143>unless you forget characters like Cloak & DaggerI'm more of a Milk & Cookies guy>Ghost Rider, Punisher, and WolverineGimme back that GR, Hulk, Spidey & Wolverine F4 team
>>127258165Point is, these characters kinda were bullies. Edgy bullies
>>127258187>Frank Castle wasn't a nice personyou don't say
>>127257377>He did fight in self-defense.He started a race war against humans before most humans even knew mutants existed. Magneto was not fighting in self-defense, that's a brainlet take that people keep pushing so they can pretend "but what if the villain was the real hero all along?"
>>127258196>"but what if the villain was the real hero all along?"in other words 2/3rds of /tv/
>>127258146Mutants fuck like rabbits, babies come out, then they chuck their babies into the bushes to let whatever happen to them because they can't be asked to give up their life of debauchery to take care of some brat. It's such a huge problem that they have a dedicated nursery to find and take care of them.
>>127258196>"but what if the villain was the real hero all along?"Seriously one of the worst things to happen was "Griffith did nothing wrong" and the God tier-shit tier villain charts going from ironic shitpost to legitimate arguing point
>>127258060>Within the context of Hickman X-Men, Apocalypse literally caused the collapse of the Bronze Age. Ignoring his other stuff, in universe he by the point that X-Men started had a body count that was easily in the millions>Sinister literally wanted to kill every single being on the planet and create "Homo Sinister" and has the marauders slaughter things he considers to be genetic dead ends>Selene tries to kill all mutants during Necrosha to fuel her ascent to godhoodWow, you are so full of shit.>>127258107>Did she have to ensure that he was born, if he already was born in previous life? What would be the point of that?It's the nature of her powers.The future changes every time she goes back. She would have to make an effort to make sure things turned out the way she wanted to. >How would she know his deal, if she had no any data about him previously? Think anon.I literally explain that in the post above you. The data page explained that even before he was born, Moira/Xavier knew that he would be a powerful telepath/telekinetic, yet her treatment didn't account for this.
>>127257893>Two can play this game.Well you're playing it really badly, you moron. None of those things you're talking about killed millions. Nobody should be considering Magneto redeemed or redeemable ever, and no heroes should be teaming up with him for anything but the most desperate situations where they wouldn't even turn the Red Skull away. He shouldn't be a full-time member or ally of the X-Men.
>>127258230Yeah. It's unfortunately a writing style Hickman fucking loves using. His whole thing is "Actually the villains are more competent/cool than the heroes"
>>127258230There were a bunch of people unironically stating "Thanos was right" coming out of Infinity War.
>>127258033Sounds amazing if so, do you happen to have the issue so I can look it up, I love when characters give Magneto shit and he can't beat them down for it.
>>127258248>It's the nature of her powers.The future changes every time she goes back. She would have to make an effort to make sure things turned out the way she wanted to.It's actually explained that if she does the same things she did in a previous life, things play out the same as they did before, and if she does something different, events start changing.
>>127257688>buzzword buzzword>derkaderka bait!>I can't defend shitty writing trying to make mutant Hitler "not such a bad guy after all"You're part of the reason why comics have shat itself so hard, and why hack writers pander to this edgy shit.
>>127258270They should not have changed his motivation
>>127258316Regardless of his motivation, people were stating that Thanos did the right thing. The state of thinking where the mass murdering nutbag whose entire stance can be dismantled by pointing out how what he did can be undone in a couple of decades is agreed upon by a significant amount of people is beyond fucked.
>>127258295You do realize that nothing I said contradicted that? She changed the future in Life 10, therefore she would of had to made some effort to keep things the same.
I love how people forget that black bolt was responsible for actual genocide, and all he got was a literal slap on the wrist for that, and all he did for being responsible for the death of cyclops was only saying "sorry". It's like hickmen is your first marvel comic you had ever read
>>127258365I was posting that in support of what you said, sorry if that wasn't clear.
>>127249062Magneto and Zaladane have both tried conquering the Savage Land, did any other mutants try it?
>>127250822Probably, but that's just denial.A lot of X-fags are going to lose their minds if Trial of Magneto ends with them still unrelated, aren't they? And so far that mini has been doubling down on them not being family.
Where can I start with the new Krakoa stuff? I'm very interested to see it all. Just Krakoa itself seems like a look into a really fucked up nation state from the dictators point of view with how the anons here are putting it and I'd love to see that.
>>127253725>HotspotDid you mean Sunspot?>JuggernautEven at his worst, Cain shouldn't really be joining a mutant terrorist group like the Brotherhood. Even Austen only had him join them to try and stop them from within.>Quicksilver>Scarlet WitchI can't imagine any circumstances where either of them would ever voluntarily rejoin the Brotherhood. Or why anyone would want that.
>>127259257It's fairly recent, just start with House of X and Powers of X. Then keep reading any book that catches your eye.
>>127259599Alright, I used to love X-Men as a kid but never could get into the comics as I was poor as shit, loved the cartoons and games though. Seeing what they've turned into is both disheartening and wildly interesting.
>>127245812>Weren't they the only people who knew.No. Spider-Man's villains found out the hard way when he decided to go full predator mode and hunt them like a spider after he believed one of them murdered a baby. He went ballistic. Spider-Man is one of the more scary heroes if he didn't spend all his time fucking around.
>>127257688>what about what the humans did?The implications of HoXPoX are that Moira, Xavier and Magneto knew about a lot of these events from Moira's past lives, and allowed them all to happen again for the purpose of radicalizing the mutant community to a point where they'd accept Krakoa as their only option.
>>127260464Pretty much. His rogues are damn lucky he tries to stick to the "Friendly Neighborhood Superhero" angle, corny jokes and all. A part of me wishes that all the heroes we see dumping on Spidey for dumb reasons, such as a dislike for his jokes, get to team up with him when he's in a no-bullshit mood and realize just how scary he is when Peter does not fuck around, so they end up preferring the usual goofball attitude.
>>127260464>Spider-Man is one of the more scary heroes if he didn't spend all his time fucking around.That's a lot of heroes if they stopped giving a shit. We've seen what happens when Reed has a complete disregard for ethical constraints. We've seen what an amoral Iron Man is capable of, hell we've seen an evil Captain America effectively take over the world.
>>127227146Unwittingly? Dear anon: leftists ALWAYS go authoritarian.
>>127227146Sounds like a plotline that'll be retconned with everyone being under psychic brainwashing.
>>127259285Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver in the Brotherhood only works if you're doing a reboot and intend to move them to the Avengers after a story arc or two.
>>127257706>context of Fatal Attractions>Magneto is angry about the Legacy Virus, a mutant-killing virus made by a mutant>Magneto announces his return to the world by lowering a massive space station into the atmosphere, a show of force that causes violent, destructive storms across the world>A satellite network is activated to form a barrier that would prevent Magneto from returning to Earth again>Magneto's space station has teleport capabilities and his Acolytes have TWO teleports, allowing him to circumvent the barrier>In another show of force, Magneto destroys the satellites with a planet-wide EMP that kills millions>context of The Magneto War>Magneto demands the UN give him a mutant nation, does a permanent planet-wide EMP, and won't stop until they give in to his demandsIf you know the context, it's obviously not self-defense, it's a villain using force to bully and intimidate the world.
>>127229479Nah, that's how you get Clayton'd
>>127227807Ewing had Banner say it was a good idea.
>>127257769Reminder that Trial of Magneto implies that Xavier has known Wanda and Pietro weren't mutants since before he left Earth in the mid 1980s, and kept that a secret for another 30 years of comics.
I think all the female writers are incompetent
>>127261012That's actually a matter of fact. The editors can't say shit to them because they're terrified of being called sexist/phobe/whatever. Never hire someone you can't correct or fire if they lose their shit and go off the rails.
>>127257837>He had another court session laterEarlier, not later. Magneto's been put on trial twice, first in UXM #200, where Fenris attack the trial and he manages to escape, the second time in the 1987 X-Men vs Avengers mini, where he uses mind control to get the verdict he wants. During both of those trials he'd attempted to kill millions, but was always stopped. Nobody has ever succeeded in bringing him to justice for his actions since. Xavier and Wolverine both attempted to put a permanent end to him, but it didn't work., and now they work with him.>Doc Ock has bigger body countI don't know how Otto possibly has a bigger body count than Fatal Attractions.
I honestly don't understand how the Mutants think they're superior when technologically advanced aliens with no X-Gene exist and canonically shit all over them and humanity.
>>127260464>Spider-Man's villains found out the hard way when he decided to go full predator mode and hunt them like a spider after he believed one of them murdered a babyThat was long after he hamulated the X-men, the X-men were the first and even then Pete wasn't that mad and they weren't actually trying to hurt himExcept maybe Wolverine but that's just how Logan rolls
>>127261070the X-Men saved him, after they spent the morning chilling with him at the beach
>>127260935Banner never fucking went there and he was in the whole "Destroy the "human" world" phase. He also managed to actually punish the fuckers draining the world dry better than Nature Girl could ever hope, despite being edgier than her he did it without even killing a mook or rando
>>127261149Or when Reed Richards and the other super scientists exist, who all accomplished much greater feats of scientific achievements. Fucking Tony Stark's leftover Dyson sphere bits that Orchis is squatting on is currently giving Magneto the brain shits every time he tries to do something with it.
>>127261070>I don't know how Otto possibly has a bigger body count than Fatal AttractionsHe tried to destroy the world by hyper heating it up during Slott's absolutely terrible "Ends of the Earth" arc. Ock managed to get heaters off and there's a good chance a lot of people died from it
>>127261198Context, why the fuck are they even bothering?Also>Monica>ThorHow badly did those two job for Magneto to get saved?
>>127257924>If anything, I would say that Green Goblin is irredeemable straightforward villain, and literally nothing elseNo, Norman's co-creator established he wasn't always bad, and could be a good person when he had amnesia and forgot being the Green Goblin. He's only really been a complete villain all the time since he came back in the 1990s, and even that's not consistent all of the time.
>>127261412>How badly did those two job for Magneto to get saved?The Winter Guard showed up to kill Magneto for all the shit he's done to Russia and the resulting three way clusterfuck allowed Rouge to slip off with him
>>127261502also from X-Men vs Avengers #1
>>127258219>muties still think they're justified with this behaviourI'd like to read those issues, if you can provide their numbers.
>>127261577>>127261198page before this here
>>127261605pretty much the UN and Hague aren't good enough a court for a mutant
>>127261574Way of X
>>127258107>And call them lunatics, genocidal maniacs despite them not being lunatics and genocidal maniacs, but also forgetting that over 50 years of comic book history, each character goes through numerous iterations and they are rarely consistentI think anon's being consistent in stating that these villains have been either killers on a massive scale, or have attempted to kill on a massive scale, since early in their history, most of them were created like that, and trying to redeem characters like that and turn them into heroes is absolutely retarded and nobody should want that. It's even worse when it's accompanied by tearing down classic heroes to turn them into edgy antiheroes or outright villains.We can't defend this with "comics change writers, so characters aren't always consistent". Writers trying to turn genuinely evil villains into the heroes are idiots, and so are fans who want this, and simp for the villains. If you have to be like this, latch on to a lower-tier villain who doesn't try to kill people, not someone like Magneto.
>>127261635>Hey, we both want the fucker punished for his crimes, everybody in the world does, we'll take him to an international body to- >NO, SOVIET UNION STRONG, WE'LL DO IT!Okay, the X-Men were typically being retarded whenever a mutant is involved in something, but the Russians being belligerent idiots just made things a lot worse, that was definitely on the Winter Guard for fucking it all up.
>>127261662I mean I'm not wholly against the idea of killers seeking redemption. I think there's a story there. But what we shouldn't get is Magneto with a seat at the main table. These kinds of characters should be in the background, working from afar to make up for their actions. Not core team members. If the X-men are seen just chilling with Magneto it comes off as very tone def, but you could have him in the background as a third party. >We can't defend this with "comics change writers, so characters aren't always consistent"That's another big issue too. Using this as an excuse is effectively saying none of this matters. new writers should certainly go in new directions but they need to build off the writers before them. A new writer doesn't mean a new continuity and it's hard to just roll back from some of the actions we've seen.
>>127258107>Because you treat these characters as if they were real. And call them lunatics, genocidal maniacs despite them not being lunatics and genocidal maniacs, but also forgetting that over 50 years of comic book history, each character goes through numerous iterations and they are rarely consistentIsn't that just using your head? If a character commits atrocities then they're a lunatic and a genocidal maniac regardless of if the current story doesn't bring it up.
>>127261552I wonder if they ever think that in retrospect they should have just let the Russians kill him?
>>127261838Ironically enough, the Avengers had the welfare of mutants on their mind in making that decision, they didn't want an outright murder of Magneto to make things potentially spill over everywhere else. Yes, killing Magneto would have been preferable in a practical sense, but they were worried about the wider implications.
>>127261661Everything about this is fucked up
>>127229247>>127245855She's a shitty non-character who's been around forever and still has zero discernable personality or character. She's the Miles Morales of mutants.
>>127261635I will never forgive Ewing for cucking us out of Nova beating Magneto's ass
>>127261552>Every individual deserves a fair trialIf only, that reminds me how much of a joke trial of Magneto is
>>127261935Fucking old faggot can't even take responsibility, Magneto is proof being a nigger is a state of mind not dependent on race
>>127261918X-23 of course you mean.>I'm a killer>We're you're friends>I'm not a killerThen she gets punted to a new team and process starts a new.
>>127261775>I mean I'm not wholly against the idea of killers seeking redemption.Fair point, but it has to be handled a lot better than cape comics handle it. They can't just change sides and be a superhero now the same way a lower-tier villain could get away with doing. Most heroes, and the public should struggle to ever forgive them, and if they really feel remorse they should turn themselves in and go to prison. A repentant Magneto should be sat in a cell in The Vault for the rest of his days, not joining the X-Men or holding a government position on Krakoa.
>>127261935Arent the Shi'ar in league with the mutants as a whole? Also i'm assuming there is no time limit for their crimes to go unpunished.>>127261971>Stop acting crazy? He seems pretty reasonable if a bit emotional.>He uses his excuses to attack the hated otherThat's rich coming from him, and moving the goal post from him commiting a crime to Nova acting in bad faith
>>127261945>I should be acquitted because I got turned into a baby and thus I am a new man the old Magneto is dead>Why yes I still have all my memories of my time before and all the crimes I committed
>>127262028He doesn't need to fight you with magnetism though, he's faster, stronger, and tougher than you and can nullify your powers. A more ruthless Nova would have torn his head from his shoulders after knocking that helmet off.
>>127262028This is why I hate Earth 616. >wah wah wah I should be allowed to roam scott free because mutant Fuck earth. Save the Universe.
>>127262009Yeah. He's not even really showing remorse. Like if he went all Buddhist monk and isolated himself or sacrificed himself or tried to put the greater good ahead of his own self it would be meaningful. But this is just being selfish. A tyrant can't be forgiven easily. This isn't like some Thunderbolts shit.
>>127262028It can't be stated how much I hate that this is one of the few on page/screen ass beating 616 Magneto's ever gotten. We'll never see the old bastard get his ass beat for several pages. I'm tempted to get a job at Marvel just to see if I can make it happen
>>127261971>Nova hates Magneto for being a murderous villain who got away with it all>Magneto claims Nova just hates him because he's a mutantIt's like he genuinely can't comprehend anyone could hold a grudge against him for the things he's done, nobody could hate him for who he chooses to be, they could only hate him because of racism. Absolutely pathetic.
>>127262189>Thunderbolts shitUnironically have him run the Thunderbolts, shit lets have a re-launch of the criminal redemption plan with a genuinely repentant Magneto and Luke Cage butting heads while trying to reform low to mid tier villains
>>127262248Magneto could level a city and then when someone said something to him still try to play the victim card.>>127262255Not the Thunderbolts exactly but a team of ex mutant villains acting in secret for the greater could might not be too bad.
>>127262309>ex mutant villainsMaking him have to look after and give a shit about non-mutants is the way to go, it shows genuine repentance and how he's moved passed being a racist fuck. If you give him mutants he has a higher chance to reoffend and possibly fuck up other's redemptions. Can't make a Brotherhood of Evil Mutants with no mutants
Nova is so coolhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIJG5nrzLQk
>>127262101>Arent the Shi'ar in league with the mutants as a whole? Also i'm assuming there is no time limit for their crimes to go unpunished.The X-Men do a lot of Black Ops Merc stuff for the Shi'Ar
>>127262489I don't know much about the Nova Corps except that they have been done dirty and killed many times.Also isn't the current Nova a kid?
>>127262788They're basically Marvels Green Lantern Corp. But usually treated worse. Let that sink.>Also isn't the current Nova a kid?Sam Alexander. Rich is still around I think but Sam is like... Earth Nova.
>>127227146>the 14 criteria of fascismno copy pasting from Chairman Mao's handbook is allowed.
>>127257377>he was punished as wellWhen, the one time he went on trial, the X-Men flipped shit about it. Claremont also had to completely ignore how abusive he was to Wanda and Pietro let alone the rest of the original Brotherhood of Evil.
>>127263314Fuck off fash
>>127263656Mastermind is in some of Claremont's early 80s stories, but once he commits to trying to redeem Magneto, characters from the original Brotherhood just don't appear in his run, so they can't remind readers who Magneto really is and what he did. Blob is the only exception to this, but he didn't last long on the team compared to the others.Byrne, Stern and some other guys were the ones who decided they were going to make Magneto into the father of Wanda and Pietro, according to Byrne, Claremont didn't even know it was happening until he saw the page Byrne had drawn setting it up. Either Claremont never had any interest in the twins as characters at all, or he just knew he couldn't do anything with them without making Magneto look awful. In his entire 1975-1991 run, Pietro never appeared, Wanda only had a minor appearance as part of the Avengers team in the Kulan Gath story.