Maybe this is a little niche, but I just finished The Song of Achilles and it's giving me emotions. Can we have a thread for one of mankind's oldest ships?
>>3567218>Oldest shipI'm sorry but Gilgamesh and Enkidu is older than Achilles/Patroclus for at least a millenium
>>3567227I am aware. That's why I said "one of". Gilgamesh/Enkidu, Achilles/Patroclus and (I believe) David/Jonathan are all proof that slash shipping and homoerotisim in literature are not new inventions. It feels kind of nice to know you are participating in a tradition that even Plato was a part of 2400 years ago.
>>3567218How was the book? I read a few pages in but wasn't exactly hooked
>>3567246I wasn't really on-board until Achilles comes into the picture, and that happens about 20~30 pages in. You have to get through this whole scene about the engagement of Helen that's kind of a drag and sets the scene for later chapters, but it's not really representative of the rest of the book. I would at least give it three chapters to get started.I loved it and couldn't put it down once it got going, and I'm really not much of a reader outside of fanfiction (take that as you will). It's definitely high romance, in a heart-wrenching sort of way. It is fully centered on Achilles and Patroclus, so don't go into it expecting a lot of development for a large cast of characters. But I would recommend it, especially if you like to ship battle brother dynamics or are into the concept of soulmates. Patroclus is a good, good boy and deserved the world.Just like, look at this. I don't know about you, but I eat this shit up.>“I could recognize him by touch alone, by smell; I would know him blind, by the way his breaths came and his feet struck the earth. I would know him in death, at the end of the world.”
>>3567246It's rather YA-ish and melodramatic despite being pretty well-researched overall. As far as Ancient Greek homo goes, I personally prefer Mary Renault's Alexander Trilogy for both the characters and story writing. Alexander and Hephaestion even LARPed as Achilles/Patroclus and they both managed to be far more accomplished than their mythical idols.
>>3567926>Alexander and Hephaestion even LARPed as Achilles/PatroclusThat's cringe. Why were ancient Greeks so embarrassing? Thanks for the rec, though!
>>3568396They physically resembled Achilles and Patroclus respectively and their trajectory in life was similar as well (except that Hephaestion became an extremely formidable military general in his own right). And Hephaestion's death mindbroke Alexander in a far more dramatic way than Patroclus' did Achilles.>Arrian says that Alexander "flung himself on the body of his friend and lay there nearly all day long in tears, and refused to be parted from him until he was dragged away by force by his Companions">Plutarch says that "Alexander's grief was uncontrollable" and adds that he ordered many signs of mourning, notably that the manes and tails of all horses should be shorn, the demolition of the battlements of the neighbouring cities and the banning of flutes and every other kind of music">"until the third day after Hephaestion's death, Alexander neither tasted food nor paid any attention to his personal appearance, but lay on the ground either howling in grief or silently mourning,"He then threw a funeral that cost about 240 million dollars in today's money, built him a funeral pyre sixty meters high (200 feet) decorated with 240 ships with golden prows etc., tried to have Hephaestion declared a god, and basically spent the remaining eight months of his own life planning Hephaestion's monuments.
>>3567246It gets better after the catalogue of ships
>>3568497That does seem pretty dramatic. Although, so is going on a suicidal rampage, clogging a river with dead bodies and trying to kill a god when he gets in your way. Or beating the ground with your fists and crying so loudly your mom hears you from the ocean. Achilles also refused to eat or wash until Patroclus' funeral was over, which he wouldn't allow until he had killed Hector. I don't think either of them had very healthy grieving mechanisms.
>>3568532You mean the one in the back of the book?
I'm actually in the middle of the audiobook. Its pretty sweet
>>3568532Isn't that the actual Illiad. Oh, it's a joke, sorry.I never got into Achilles and Patroclus for the sole reason that I just hated Achilles in the Illiad. Matter of fact, I hated everyone except Odysseus (he kinda reminds me of Shikamaru), Agamemnon (sleazy fun), and Hector (at least semi-decent person)
>>3569347I sparknoted the Iliad because I don't have the patience or the attention span to read in verse, so I'm definitely not an authority on the matter. But if your issue is that Achilles was unlikable in the original story then I think you'll find him a lot more humanized in TSoA. Much of the book is about how war changed him from a sweet and gentle child who loved to sing and play games into a ruthless and prideful killing machine. His unlikability in the Trojan War is very much addressed and treated critically. At one point Patroclus loses his shit at him for being a stubborn asshole.Agamemnon isn't painted in a very flattering way, though. And Hector barely has a character at all. But Odysseus is still a fun dude.
>>3569427>Agamemnon isn't painted in a very flattering wayAnd he shouldn't, that's why he's so entertaining, in a kind of Always Sunny in Philadelphia way. After the Iliad, he parades his concubine in front of his wife, whose daughter he sacrificed to go to war in the first place, it's amazingly shitty. When Ol' Clyt took him out, I bet he went all Pikachu react face
>>3569085No in the actual illiad there just a long list of people and their boats that goes on forever.>>3569347Yeah I mean that's pretty much the point. They were pampered kings and incredibly flawed people. The ancient Greeks also had an incredibly different sense of morality and duty than ourselves.
>>3569623Incredibly based you mean.
>>3569347Achilles is a tragic case. He was used as a weapon by damn near everyone. His pride was used against him to strong arm him into war. His companion is killed trying to save himThey are all playthings of the gods. The only upside is at least theres an afterlife in the setting and neither of the men pissed off the gods enough to warrant an ironic punishment
>>3569427>Agamemnon isn't painted in a flattering wayThat's sort of the point of the Illiad. Big A is in charge, but it isn't because he's braver or stronger or better. He's just the boss, and he's a shitty boss. Achilles, on the other hand, is the greatest of the greeks, and he responds to this by pitching a fit and abandoning people who fought with him, people he called friend, and playing the lyre while people who were counting on him died. He's the best, and he's also a self-centered piece of shit who doesn't give a shit about anybody else on the team.People assume that because Homer calls him the Greatest of the Greeks it means that Homer is endorsing everything he does. I think they're missing the point. Sometimes the best guy on the team is also a prima-donna grade S fuckhead who doesn't give a damn about anybody else. Sometimes the boss is also a prima-donna grade SS fuckhead who not only doesn't give a damn about the team, but isn't competent enough to back it up.Hector is a good man and Priam is a good king, and everything they care about is destroyed because Paris couldn't keep his fucking dick in his pants. That's the same story as King Arthur, in a way.The major theme of the Illiad is selfish men making things worse than they have to be because they don't care about other people.
Nothing like discussing classical Homeric texts on an image board dedicated to pictures of cute anime boys.
>>3569808The author does a pretty faithful job of retelling the story then, by your account. It's kind of impressive that she was able to tell a modern-feeling story using the same building blocks. Achilles tragic flaw may have technically been his pride, but I felt like it was more his inability to care about anyone other than Patroclus.
Been furiously playing Hades for the last couple of days, hoping the story takes me to reuniting these two. Pic related, Achilles in game
Started reading Song of Achilles 'cause of this thread. Really like it so far.
>>3570644When I started this thread I hadn't been thinking that Achilles and Patroclus might be characters in Hades. Just started playing it, and Achilles is definitely more chill in their interpretation, and both are more jacked than I had pictured (especially Patroclus). You're welcome to post fanart of them from the game if you like. I think one is supposed to be young Hades Patrocilles, so kind of giving vibes of both.
>>3570667Glad you like it! Try to not let it destroy you.
The sad thing is Patroclus probably will never be a servant. At least we get Gilgamesh and Enkidu
>>3571022Personally, not a huge fan of his Fate design. The spiky anime hair just feels wrong. At least they didn't butcher him as badly as they butchered Alexander the Great. Or, you know, King Arthur. Fuck, I looked up the wiki article on Fate's version of Paris, and it's wild.
>>3571037Yeah the hair is weird. Alexander and Arthur both have multiple versions, including a male Arthur, so thats at least acceptable. And yeah fate goes absolutely batshit with mythologies. Part of why I like it
how come the tumblr art depicts patroclus as bl*ck
>>3570939I must say I'm a fan of the jacked designs, not only with these two, but the other characters as well (personal preference). Anyway, I hear you can actually help them reunite so I'm off to farm some Nectar.
>>3570940i've read a few passages and after playing hades i'm honestly afraid to read it because i'll end up being a sobbing mess for weeks>>3570644no spoilers but they're some of my favorite parts of the game
>>3571191Most likely a tan. They are from different parts of Greece
>>3568497I don’t remember the exact quotations from Homer but Patroclos was thought as older than Achilles, while Hephaestion and Alexander were the same ageI know many centuries passed between these duos (couples?), but that age gap could change dynamics of the relationship in the Ancient world
>>3571191Most of them look closer to Persian or a tanned Mediterranean. Mediterranean skin colors can very to a pretty dark olive tone. I'm pretty sure the book tsoa explicitly says he has dark hair, and giving him a darker coloration makes for a nice contrast with Achilles' blonde hair and presumably paler complexion. The the skin of Hades Patroclus is so dark because that's how he looks in the game.I'm no history or anthropology buff so correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe skin color was less of a significant factor than regionality and language for establishing tribal groups in Homeric times. You weren't "black" or "white", you were Spartan or Anatolian or something. And in this region of the world there would have been a lot of overlap with Egyptian and Persian ethnic groups due to travel and trade. In fact, Troy was located in what is now modern-day Turkey.
>>3571502I'm pretty sure the Iliad doesn't state that either one is older than the other. That's why there was debate over who was the top and who was the bottom when Plato and other ancient Greeks tried to apply pederastic conventions to their relationship centuries after it was written. Some, like the playwrite who wrote the The Myrmidons, assumed Achilles was older because he was stronger and sought vengeance for Patroclus, while Plato thought Achilles was younger because he was more beautiful and youthful.Ancient greek discourse literally was like>Achilles must have been the seme because he was so strong and protective>No, he had to be the uke because he was a bishie femboyIt's heart warming how some things never change.
>>3571502As >>3571540 said, nobody knows if there was any age difference between Achilles and Patroclus, plus the classical Greek dynamics didn't really apply to Alex and Hephaistion because they were both Macedonians and were pretty big on having equality in their relationship, to the point Alexander seemed to believe they were one soul inhabiting two bodies. They were, however, notably physically different, with Hephaistion being the taller and more kingly-looking of the two, which sometimes led to awkward mishaps. Perhaps the most famous one was when the Queen Mother of Persian publicly prostrated herself before Hephaistion to save Darius' harem, assuming that since he was so imposing and impressive, he had to be the great King of Macedon she had heard of (Alexander was standing right there next to him). She was mortified when she learned who they really were, but Alex seemed to be completely okay with the misunderstanding, replying "You were not wrong, Mother, he too is Alexander."
>>3570613eh, TSoA completely ignores Achilles' necrophilia and raping of several slaves
>>3571628He does cuddle the boyfriends corpse a bit
>>3571628Madeline Miller definitely gave the most rationalized and flattering depiction of owning pleasure slaves that she could muster, but if you want to create a modern retelling of a 3000-year-old story you're going to have to take some liberties here and there to make it emotionally resonant with today's sensibilities.If the necrophilia you're talking about is referring to is Penthesilea, then she wasn't even in the Iliad. She comes from the lost epic Aethiopis. And while some say he did, most versions of that story don't depict Achilles actually raping her corpse, just falling in love with her after he kills her.
Back with more vidya shit since OP said it was ok
>>3571890yeah that's what i was referring to, thanks for responding
>>3571890>most versions of that story don't depict Achilles actually raping her corpse, just falling in love with her after he kills herOh, wow, that's much better
>>3572592I figure I'll run out of TSoA fanart eventually anyways. I see the Hades thread was allowed to die too. That's too bad.
>>3573401I would say the distinction is not insignificant, yes.
>>3571416It's kind of like watching the Titanic, isn't it? You know how the story ends, but somewhere in the back of your mind you're hoping it might be different.
>>3567218Where can I read this it sounds great
>>3574891Start with the Greeks
>>3574891I prefer to own physical copies of books so I'm not sure what the best source to pirate ebooks is. It's been out for about 10 years now and the author has another book that's become a best seller, so it shouldn't be too difficult to track down new or used.And far be it my prerogative to discourage people from reading classic literature if they want to, but you really don't need to have any knowledge of the Iliad to enjoy The Song of Achilles. You may have picked up some knowledge of it already through cultural osmosis or from browsing this thread, but that also shouldn't dampen your enjoyment. It's written with the expectation that most people will already know how it ends.
>>3578552>Hollywood medieval-style dresses instead of Ancient Greek Fucking ruined.
>>3571191Because am*ricans and anglos suffer from racial schizophrenia and they are unable to understand the basic notions of ethnicity in the ancient world and/or the mediterranean >>3571536>Olive skinThat's a memet. actual mediterranean
This isnt achilleclus, but it is greek