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The final season will resume in less than a week's time. Will Destiel become canon? Will the many messy and questionable character arcs be resolved? Will there be peace when they are done? It's finally time to know. And to pay our respects to the once great and mighty fandom of SPN.

Previous thread >>3478025
Last thread was very Castiel heavy, so I'll start this one off with a little brothers Winchester.
Carefully avoiding explicit Wincest until someone expresses a specific desire for it...
I get your frustration. I think I'm still so invested the character Castiel used to be because I rewatched it all so recently. And it's hard to just turn off the affection you feel for a character you used to love, especially when the actor's charisma still steeps through despite awful writing. I just wish so much that they had done better by him.

For me there were two moments that killed Castiel. The first was in season 8, when he ran off with the angel tablet after shaking Naomi's conditioning. It felt like the first bad decision he made just for the purpose of causing unnecessary drama, not because it was something that his character would have logically done. From that moment until the end of S12 he became just a fuckup who made shit happen for plot reasons.

Then his second death happened at the end of S12 when he was brainwashed into being a surrogate dad, completely taking all agency away from him. The following seasons stuck him in a arc that had nothing to do with he previous character conflict, and he never resolved any of his feelings of failure or worthlessness. They just dropped it all for Jack. And putting him in a hostage situation in the S14 premiere was the biggest insult. I'll never stop being mad about that.

I also feel kind of conflicted about the prospect of canon Destiel. At this point I don't know if it's possible to make a reveal like that feel organic and not like fanservice. If they had kept to the path they were on in S8 it would have been natural, but they made a deliberate effort to back down for several seasons. They started adding subtext again in S12, and it's gotten more blatant and frequent in every season since, but they have been careful to keep everything squarely in the realm of plausible deniability. I feel like some kind of platonic life partnership would be more appropriate than a proper romantic relationship now.

And yes, Kevin deserved better. So did Benny, Bella and Charlie.
I was pretty upset that they brought the most threatening and iconic villain back just to turn him into a de-buffed buffoon. Having him and Sam act civil with each other was pretty fucked up too. It's like the writers conveniently forgot just what Lucifer did to him to justify his hatred. It also annoyed me in season 13 when Jack was curious about Lucy and wanted to chat, and everyone kept telling him that Lucifer was a bad person without telling him exactly why. Like, he held Sam captive for probably centuries, torturing him for his own amusement, slowly peeling the flesh back from his bones until Sam completely lost his marbles and could only function without a soul. I think if they put it that way then Jack would have understood pretty quickly that his dad was a bad dude.

The Ruby and Jo thing was purely fanservice. Putting the two wives together as a wink and nod to the fans. Jo was entirely written just so that Jensen could bring his wife onto the show. Pretty sure everything would have been exactly the same if they had removed her.

Aspie angel Castiel is kind of cute, though. I don't think they could have given him the development he needed in early seasons if they stuck too hard to the no emotions rule. It seems like it was less that angels couldn't feel emotions than it was that they were forbidden from feeling emotions. Castiel was endearingly contradictory, because even though he outwardly emoted less, he clearly was feeling more than his siblings on the inside. I like to think angels like Uriel and Zachariah acted like humans out of pride, because they were trying to imitate the creation their father loved more than them. Castiel wasn't envious of humans like they were, but he ended up being the most human of them all.
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Exactly. Facing what Lucifer did to Sam was supposed to be the obvious outcome. Instead the writers have this boner for Mark/Lucifer and they want a redemption arc for him but it just doesn't work because the way he's being portrayed is too ooc. He was supposed to be calm and calculating, never raising his voice and never LYING to Sam. That Lucifer made me like Samifer, even though it's abusive, we can work something up with fanfics. They had a sick chemistry together and it was * chef kiss *
It would have made more sense for Lucifer to be against god now, on the brother's side, BUT keeping his distance and bathing in rage against his dad. If only we had more angels (I can't fucking believe they're almost extinct) to try to fight against god too, show how much they're tired of this bullshit and finally acknowledging how shit God is

>The Ruby and Jo thing was purely fanservice.

fuck Jo and Ruby all my homies hate Jo and Ruby

>I like to think angels like Uriel and Zachariah acted like humans out of pride, because they were trying to imitate the creation their father loved more than them. Castiel wasn't envious of humans like they were, but he ended up being the most human of them all.

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Yeah Jensen is hot and his long is hair looks nice but wew, Jared and his fabulous hair.....actually Misha is the hottest for me, Jared comes in second place. His beard all those blue eyes hnnnng Misha is cute! Cute!
I'm still worried about Cas and the boys; we have new episodes very soon and it seems they're really going to kill Castiel again god fucking dammit. Please let Dean die and reunite with Cas in heaven or something
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Sam kind of got cheated out of battling his own demons when Cas took his crazy away, didn't he? I guess that's a recurring theme for this show.

Softening out Lucifer was all part of the greater problem they had with power creep. They didn't know how to make a new villain more threatening than the actual devil, so they turned him into a petty child throwing a temper tantrum instead, and just swept all of the horrible things he had done under the rug like we would forget about them. It was lazy writing. There was absolutely a way they could have kept Lucifer powerful and intimidating while still having a new evil force to contend with. It could have been like Godzilla vs. Mothra, a whole "whoever wins, we lose" situation. It would have been epic.

And you're right, the devil who always tells the brutal truth is a great trope, and it sucks that they didn't stick with it. Satan shouldn't have to lie to temp humans. There is enough evil in the world and in human hearts that they'll turn themselves with only the gentlest of nudges. But nu-Luci was weak and conniving and lied constantly. Not even twisting the truth, just outright falsehoods. It was so boring compared to how he used to be.
>A Winter's Tale by NorthernSparrow
Thanks for the rec. I'll check it out.

I have a lot of thoughts about A/B/O, and I was going to write a whole diatribe about it, but I think i'll skip that and say that it's not my favorite. To each their own, though. At the very least, SPN has left a permanent mark on fan culture. Generations of slash shippers will forever be thankful for the great fandom that normalized fics about knotting and self-lubricating assholes.
I've always loved Castiel as a character, but somehow I never really noticed how attractive Misha was until recently. I think it's because Cas looks so dower and squinty all the time, and he's most handsome when he laughs and looks relaxed. Again, I love Endverse Cas for being the best of both worlds.

Cas doesn't go to heaven when he dies. Maybe all of his good deeds will turn him into a real boy, and he will earn a soul so that he could get into heaven? Maybe? But that's if the Empty doesn't get him first. I'm hoping Dean will just break Cas' deal as a callback to the time Cas broke the Winchester's deal with Billy ("You made a stupid deal. And I broke it"). I doubt the writers even remember something that happened in S12 though.

It's probably stupid and I don't know if I would even want it to happen, but can you imagine Cas' vessel getting badly damaged, and Dean letting him use his own body as a vessel to save him? We've seen from Benjamin and Micheal that some angels live in harmony with their vessels and basically share the body. In Benjamin's case it almost sounded like it was an expression of romantic love. Their whole ""platonic"" "it's not homo if we don't touch" shit would make more sense if they were physically incapable of interacting with each other. And then they would be together forever.
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He did, and I bet that at the time, when Cas sucked up all his trauma, people thought it would be game changing. Like, wow, an angel of the lord with memories of hell and torture? Imagine what can happen to poor Castiel! Will we see him interacting with Lucifer? Will Cas be staying there forever? Will Dean or Sam call daily for news?? Maybe another Cas centric episode, with Crazy!Cas now???
But of course, we got nothing of that. Instead, after being sent to purgatory he was miraculously sane again (I know it took him some time to get his senses back again, but a part of me wanted to see Dean taking care of Crazy!Cas while in purgatory)

>They didn't know how to make a new villain more threatening than the actual devil, so they turned him into a petty child throwing a temper tantrum instead

I wonder if Mark P ever went "hey a minute, this writing is fucking shit" or he was way too happy to play Lucifer to notice. At least both him and Jensen thought that that Michael!Dean and Lucifer fight embarrassing. I don't even want to think about it

>And you're right, the devil who always tells the brutal truth is a great trope, and it sucks that they didn't stick with it. Satan shouldn't have to lie to temp humans.

Oh god, it really made no sense. And he still had all of his grace with him! Then they used his grace for that stranger things knock-off portal thind and urgh, it was so weird to watch. And Rowena was kind of abused by him too, right? I may say that his singing to annoy her was funny, but I felt quite bad for her. Also, she's a very good character and at least got a more worthy death than poor Crowley
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ABO is something that will never die and will spread like a (good) disease to other fandoms. We created this horny monster and we shall bear the consequences
I bet those dog dicks taste good ever tried them?
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>Cas doesn't go to heaven when he dies. Maybe all of his good deeds will turn him into a real boy, and he will earn a soul so that he could get into heaven?

Unfortunately I'm sure the empty will take him away, and that almost sounds like a fairy tale aw. I don't think angels can get souls, and who would even give him one? God is against them now, and there's a change Amara will die or....I don't even know if she can do these kinds of things

>It's probably stupid and I don't know if I would even want it to happen, but can you imagine Cas' vessel getting badly damaged, and Dean letting him use his own body as a vessel to save him?

God yes. Yes please. Just like Adam and Michael? But Dean and Cas have so much more chemestry, and I'm sure both of them would be quite comfortable with each other soon or later (after some fights and stress). It's such a cute thought too! Dean cooking, Cas takes over to try to smell the spices and Dean is like woah woah there cowboy. Only adults in the kitchen!
Sam asking for their advice on a case (if the supernatural still exists) and being amused by how Dean's body language and expressions change when he and Cas take turns to talk.
fixed ignore my typos pls
>I wonder if Mark P ever went "hey a minute, this writing is fucking shit"
I've often wondered if the actors have any control or say over their characters acting ooc. I feel like they all probably know their characters better than the writers do at this point, especially considering how all over the place they've been written the last few years. We know Jensen has vetoed and modified a line before because he felt it was ooc, but I doubt they can do anything about plot developments other than try to make it work the best they can. It does make you wonder if they are as aware of the dipping quality as we are from an outside perspective, and if it bothers them at all.

>And Rowena was kind of abused by him too, right?
Yeah, and they did kind of a half-hearted attempt to tackle her and Sam's PTSD, but it felt pretty weak. There's almost something more offensive about a show depicting heavy topics poorly than just ignoring it altogether. Early Supernatural was great at realistically depicting heavy subject matter, like the way the brothers coped with their father's emotional neglect, Sam's trauma over Jessica's death and Dean's cripplingly low self-worth. But they lost that that sense of nuance and emotional rawness by the time the brought Lucy back in the game.
>I don't think angels can get souls, and who would even give him one?
When Metatron stole Cas' grace and made him human he told him that he would one day die and go to heaven, which implied that an angel without it's grace has a soul. Anna was similar, since without her grace she seemed the same as any human. She might have been different since she was naturally born, and her whole deal has probably been retconned out by now. Metatron's words were probably an oversight as well.

They've always been extremely inconsistent about what exactly a graceless angel or a soulless human is. In theory it seems like an angel without it's grace should be the same as a soulless human (or rather a soulless incorporeal wavelength still with the power to possess a human vessel), but graceless Castiel still clearly felt empathy and also possessed abilities that humans do not have. When Jack lost his soul he should have been the same as an angel, but he was incapable of feeling what Cas is able to feel at full power. So if grace isn't the source of an angel's empathy then what is? Or maybe Cas is just a special angel that somehow has had a soul this whole time and that's why he's so dysfunctional. But then why did he ever go to the empty?

But Jack can turn human souls into angels. Maybe he can also turn angels into human souls?
>I'm sure both of them would be quite comfortable with each other soon or later
The two fight a lot, so I'm sure there would be some strife in the arrangement. In this imaginary scenario I feel like Castiel would mostly just let Dean take the wheel without complaint and only pop out when his expertise is needed, when somebody wants to talk to him or when Dean is about to do something monumentally stupid (which he often does). He respects him too much to override his free will, and he has had literal millennia to frolic around the globe himself. He would mostly be a voice in Dean's head, his literal angel on his shoulder, and they would be able to see each other in mental constructs or as imaginary projections. Sam said that when Gadreel was possessing him he felt a comforting feeling like he wasn't alone. That was from an angel that was actively trying to hide its presence. If Cas possessed Dean he would probably feel the full blast of his love, which would be the sweetest thing.

The best thing about it would be that neither of them could be stupidly sacrificial anymore, because killing themselves would mean killing the other. They'd have to look after their own well being, for a change.
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>I've often wondered if the actors have any control or say over their characters acting ooc.

Surprisingly, they have some control. Jensen was the one who wanted Kaia's character back so they could wrap it up in a better way (thank god); Jared wasn't content with Sam being so close to Lucifer and tried to change it, etc. Unfortunately this means they also re-shot some scenes, and between you and me, some between Cas and Dean because it was too gay or something. I'm not 100% sure about this, tho.
And yeah, they totally know about the low quality of the show, if only we could know what the actors discuss with each other...I know Mark S was pissed about what they did to Crowley, and I want to know what Jake thought about Adam's character being forgotten, and what's Misha's view on Castiel as a character now. If only they wrote a long rant about it online, anonymously...

>Early Supernatural was great at realistically depicting heavy subject matter

I like how they portrayed Dean's trauma with being in hell, I was really surprised when he cried. His bound with Sam in early seasons was nice, and I wish they still had this vibe nowdays without being too co-dependent
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Never really thought about angels and humans like that, interesting point. Maybe if Cas turns into a human, he can die and go to heaven to be with Dean (if Dean dies), or if heaven ends up locked they can meet again once Dean dies of old age or something alike. There ARE some rumors that we may get a time skip, urgh.

>But Jack can turn human souls into angels. Maybe he can also turn angels into human souls?

Did that even work? We never heard of heaven again after that, so we don't really know if the angels he created are actually functional angels or some kind of eldritch horror. But! To stay optimistic, Jack is really powerful so maybe he can do that, yes, but the writers are too stupid to have such a good idea like this
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This scenario is p comfy, I wonder if someone wrote any fanfics about it. As silly and impossible as it is, I wouldn't mind an ending like this.

>If Cas possessed Dean he would probably feel the full blast of his love, which would be the sweetest thing.

Cute! that would make sexy times even better
>some between Cas and Dean because it was too gay or something
You might be thinking about the scene in Goodbye Stranger. Allegedly, Dean was supposed to tell Castiel that he loved him to break him out of Naomi's thrall, but Jensen changed it to "I need you" because he thought it would be out of character. That's why we have those bloopers where Jensen is trying to say "love" and can't get it out. Honestly, I think he made the right call. Even if it was true, making a proclamation of love like that wouldn't be Dean's style. But it does feel kind of like gaslighting when you consider that Destiel was literally written into the script, and then they tried to tell us that it wasn't real.

>I was really surprised when he cried.
That was such a powerful moment. Apparently, that scene affected Jensen so much that afterwards he walked off set and down the road a ways until one of the crew members tracked him down and hugged him while he cried it out. He really throws himself into the role, and he has talked about how when he's acting his body doesn't know it isn't real.

If you ask me, he keeps vetoing Destiel because he feels some sort of way about Misha and doesn't want to feed it too much. It would also explain why he kept cutting the tension in Goodbye Stranger with jokes when he usually seems super invested in emotional scenes like that. Just watch the way he looks at him during panels and how he laughs hysterically at his mildly funny jokes. Always touching him affectionately and doing shit like whispering in his ear and putting his head on his shoulder. It's at least a LITTLE homo.

This is why I avoided getting involved in the SPN fandom for so long. I knew it would eventually lead to shipping real people like a creep. Cockles so freaking adorable though, it makes me want to puke.
I like over-analyzing fiction and putting way more thought into world building than the actual writers. I'm probably thinking about angels all wrong, anyways. Angels are incorporeal beings, and their grace is the aspect of them that gives them power, like a battery. You can separate the angel from its grace even outside of a vessel, so it stands to reason that there are aspects of an angel's true form which are not its grace, including its mind and whatever tethers it to a vessel. Maybe an angel sans grace is like a prototype soul, and the power of the grace suppresses its ability to feel emotion. But an angel without its grace still isn't a human soul even if it acts like one, so Metatron was probably wrong when he said Castiel would go to heaven when he died.

Since they haven't said any differently, I assume Jack's angel conversion worked. Personally, I don't understand why the angel's haven't been getting busy making nephilim. Sure, it's against the rules, but Daddy doesn't seem to care about those anymore, and they've been going extinct. Preservation of their species seems critical, even if it is accomplished through a race of half-breeds. I wonder what the offspring of nephilim are like. Does their power grow weaker every subsequent generation? Maybe they're just infertile.

Also, it kind of bugs me that they keep using the word "nephilim" as a singular when it's plural. Pretty sure the singular form would be "nephil". Like seraph and seraphim, or cherub and cherubim.
There's like 25 fics on AO3 under the tag "Castiel Possessing Dean Winchester" but none of them are jumping out at me. I like the idea of Dean, who has struggled with feelings of worthlessness and self-loathing all his life, suddenly filled to the brim with affection and fondness and a calming sort of peace so profound and unfamiliar to him that it throws him completely off balance. When you're sharing a body there are no boundaries between your hearts. It would feel like two broken pieces becoming whole. And then Castiel being ripped away from him, and feeling the emptiness creep back in at his absence. The struggle to get him back forcing him to cope with his issues of codependency and learn to be okay with who he is on his own, to accept that if Cas saw something in him to love than he owes it to him to love himself. Cas finally learning through Dean's persistence to save him that his life still has value even if he isn't being useful. Castiel getting his old vessel back and the two adapting to live with each other as two separate people who make each other better. Finally having a proper, healthy relationship. It writes itself.

God, I wish I had the patience to write fanfiction.
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No, I don't think it was GS at all! If I remember, of of the writers wrote some pretty gay stuff between them, and they had to rewrite it n shit. I'm still waiting for Dean to say that he loves Castiel, or something more emotional than his praying scene.

>that scene affected Jensen so much that afterwards he walked off set and down the road a ways until one of the crew members tracked him down and hugged him while he cried it out.

Oh wow, I didn't know that. I know Jared loves Sam to death, and I think Misha is a little more secretive about Cas, but I had no idea that Jensen felt so close to Dean like that. None of them are ready to let these characters go, even after all these years

>if you ask me, he keeps vetoing Destiel because he feels some sort of way about Misha

I think it's prety obvious that he has a crush on Misha, oh god. Or had one at some point, and burries those feelings deep down but the gay keeps leeking out. I know it's creepy but it's just impossible to not see the way they look at each other. I'm confident that they had something.....or still have
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Only seven episodes left, I wonder if we'll see what heaven has become, since it's quite important. We have a new episode tomorrow (hooray!) and maybe we'll be able to see some signs of how the show will end. Can't believe we have Jack but no Cas
Talking about Metatron makes me sad, the show used to be so different when we still had him, Crowley and Meg around

>Also, it kind of bugs me that they keep using the word "nephilim" as a singular when it's plural.

the writers need some angelology classes
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I'll give that tag a look when I have time. I'm trying to read some crazy!Cas fics before I get too lazy to do so.

>God, I wish I had the patience to write fanfiction.

There is no singular usage of the word nephilim, anon. It's both used for singular and plural.
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Considering that Cas is losing his powers and angel radio is silent, the rest of the angels are probably also powering down now that God has stopped being invested in the universe. Which, strangely, is consistent with S5's Endverse, but inconsistent with the apocalypse world of S14.

There are many things I miss about earlier seasons of Supernatural, but I will say that Metatron definitely isn't one of them.

>the writers need some angelology classes
Whether or not they stay faithful to judeo-christian mythology or not, I just wish they could have been more consistent with the lore of their own show. A series like SPN really needs a script bible to keep everyone on the same page. We know from like one throw-away line that Castiel was resurrected as a seraph after S5, but we have no idea how the ranking system of angels works outside of archangels being at the top. What kind of angel was he before his resurrection? Did his class change with his demotion in S4? How many types of angels are there? Seraphim seem pretty high on the food chain, so was Zachariah one of them? Or Anna before she fell? What about the Cherubim? They don't seem like warriors at all, so does that make them a lower rank? And then they made reapers angels for all of one episode before they realized how stupid that was and retconned it.

Also, there are so many good angel names they passed up on the way to "Balthazar", "Hannah" and "Naomi". I kind of wish they made the Princes of Hell fallen angels who were loyal to Lucifer, since Azazel is the name of a fallen "Watcher/Grigori" angel. It would have added another dimension to hell. The Grigori were another missed opportunity. A lot of good mythology they didn't use there.

Nephilim is only ever used in the plural form in biblical texts, but that doesn't mean it's also appropriate for singular use. The grammatical convention seems pretty straight-forward to me, but I'm no expert in ancient Hebrew.
New episode was alright. Jack was a sweetheart again and Dean being baking him a cake was cute. I'm so tired of hearing about Mary, though. She's like a blight that will never leave the show.

I don't love the way they've been styling Jack's hair since he came back. His side-bangs were cute and made him look soft. They did a similar thing with Cas in earlier seasons. He used to have windswept bedhead with messy fringe, but somewhere along the way they gave up on making it sexy and just slicked it back. Why is Sam the only one allowed to have good hair?
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>There are many things I miss about earlier seasons of Supernatural, but I will say that Metatron definitely isn't one of them.

I mostly mean that in those seasons, angels falling and locking Metatron up all the time, the show still had some quality in it. Crowley was still alive, we had yet to see Rowena, etc. How did the writers decide to write a show so based on the bible and angels without putting any effort in learning about them? The angel hierarchy; god imagine if we had Thrones? Powers? Cherubs? We never got to learn more about the cupids too, and how some of them walk around naked and others don't? their bow and arrow being a tattoo was kinda meh tho

> And then they made reapers angels for all of one episode before they realized how stupid that was and retconned it.

do you mean the ones that explode people in pink? lmao

> there are so many good angel names they passed up on the way to "Balthazar", "Hannah" and "Naomi"

Naomi/Hannah never felt like angels name to me and damn I miss Balthazar. Argh, we had archangels (Uriel) turned into angels/seraphim for no reason, and if they only had researched a bit, they would have found some good real angel names (Ariel, Vretiel, Haniel, Zadkiel, Raziel, etc)
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I'll say the episode was nice. Good things first: Dean baked a cake for Jack, which was cute and I'm happy Jack got a birthday, I like the detail that Dean can cook but not bake; Sam got a nice date with Eileen; Dean and Sam got to be pampered; Jack wearing that cute hat and apron; the nymp didn't die in the end.

Now, it makes no sense to have such a happy episode (with NO CAS) in the middle of literally the end of the world. All the AU's are gone (was it really necessary to hide the telecospe's function until now? wasted episode content) and they're running out of time. The excuse for no Castiel was so fucking bad. Really? Angel contacts? They're all DEAD! And Cas lost not only one birthday party, but two (his own son!!!!). The vampires getting killed was weird, yes they're monsters but they were drinking donnated blood and not hurting anyone. Guess Dabb is still a fat fuck that can't make a good episode and I hate, HATE that they brought Mary up again.
Who the fuck cares about Mary? Tell me one nice thing she did with that sad bitchface of hers

>I don't love the way they've been styling Jack's hair since he came back.

I like both hairstyles, but the first one was more unique. Sam's hair is always nice but I wish they'd stop combing his hair back...he looks like he's balding
>god imagine if we had Thrones? Powers? Cherubs?
I've got my own headcanon that Cas was a Power before he became a Seraph, since those seem to be the most warrior-like class of angels, and he seemed to be a step-up from your ordinary, everyday Malakhim. SPN uses cupids and cherubim interchangeably, but I'd prefer to think that cupids are just one type of cherubim, and that cherubim might be a class of angels that are tasked with making sure humans are following heaven's plan. Keepers of destiny seems like a more appropriate role than matchmakers for angels. In traditional Christian angelology cherubim are the second highest ranking class after seraphim, but obviously it's different in SPN.

>do you mean the ones that explode people in pink?
That was pretty weird, but I'm taking about the episode where Tessa became a suicide bomber in Cas' angel army without his knowledge. Season 9 made many questionable choices.
It's too bad that they celebrated Jack's birthday without Cas around. I think he would have been happy that Dean made Jack a cake. They've been pretty inconsistent with Dean's domestic skills. Some episodes he can cook, and in others he can't. In some episodes he's fastidious, and in others he's a slob. I prefer to accept the episodes that characterize him as a good cook and a tidy housekeeper, because those traits are more unexpected with his general persona, so they add more dimension to his character. It also speaks to the fact that Dean's never had a home before, so he takes care to cherish it.

>Who the fuck cares about Mary?
I don't want to hate Mary, but she was just so dang unlikable. I hate to say it, but I think a lot of that can be chalked up to the fact that her actress just really isn't very good. She barely emotes, and some of her lines sounded so stilted and weird that I can't believe they kept those takes. Not that it justified killing her, but I found it pretty hard to sympathize with her death considering how she was acting. Like damn bitch, stop shouting in Jack's face when he's clearly having a panic attack. How are you so bad at being a mom when that's literally your entire character? It's a infuriating how much screentime she ate up, especially considering how unnecessary she was to the boys' character development. Dean didn't "need" his mommy at age 35. If the Darkness had to bring someone back why not Bobby or Charlie, two characters who actually supported the bros and who both deserved better send-offs (alternate versions don't count, they are different characters).

>I wish they'd stop combing his hair back
Yeah, he has a bit of a receding hairline, and the current 'do might not be the most flattering. My favorite Sam hair was around S4-S6, when it was a little shorter and layered in a way that gave him face-framing locks around his cheekbone. Combing back seems to be the current stylist's go-to look, though.
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I do believe that the cupids are a type of cherub, too. Unfortunately we saw very little of them, the valentines day episode was one of the bests and I wish we had fun case episodes like that one

>Keepers of destiny seems like a more appropriate role than matchmakers for angels.

While that's true, God likes to bend some rules so I think that, for exemple, Mary and John weren't really destinated to be together, but they were literally a match made in heaven because Chuck got bored and decided to have some puppets

Wow, I totally forgot about Tessa. I need to rewatch the seasons again when the show ends
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For me he's a good cook, but baking is tricky for him. It's confirmed that Dean and Cas spend some time together offscreen, so I wonder if he ever teached Cas how to cook; or showed him more movies or if they went on suply runs together. We may never know

>the fact that her actress just really isn't very good

While talking about Mary and how bad of a character she is, I always tried to dismiss the idea that maybe the actress wasn't that good but...yeah. Mary couldn't do ONE good thing besides dying. First she came back and I thought 'well, she's just back from the dead and seeing her children for the first time in decades! maybe she'll warm up soon' but as the episodes just went on and on and she was still that stiff, boring character I was like. Wow, that's it?
She sides with the same people who tortured her own son, then she sleeps with one of them??? And I was really liking her interactions with Cas but she HAD to be a bitch and be willing to let him die. Really? Did the writers really think that the fandom would miss or even care for her after she tried to kill him, for fucks sake? Don't they know he's a fan favorite and any character that hurts him is almost immediately hated? And she never really talked with Sam or Dean, Sam who needed her more than Dean in my opinion, urgh.
And then she died, and those white and black flashbacks felt so "hey look how good she was! she cared for them, see? we didn't show these interactions before for some fucking reason but here look how happy she makes them" that I laughed

> Dean didn't "need" his mommy at age 35

exactly! if they wanted to go in the family drama direction again, they could've very well done it without bringing back Mary or John. Sure, let's bring their abuser back, that sure is a good idea
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Cas ep in two days
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>I wonder if he ever teached Cas how to cook
Cas doesn't need to eat, so I find it unlikely that he would have any interest in cooking. However, you bet your ass Dean sat him down in those twin recliners and forced him to watch every single cowboy movie known to man. Maybe even a few of the Akira Kurosawa films that inspired some of them. Made him listen to Zepplin's full discography in vinyl. I suppose he probably showed him his favorite slasher flicks too, since that's a character trait he now has.

It's always kind of bothered me how inconsistent the writers are with Dean's geekiness. Cowboys, I buy. Dr. Sexy and daytime soaps, I buy. Even larping Braveheart I'll buy, because they all represent the kind of masculine ideal that Dean strives for (or secretly lusts after). But, and I mean this in the kindest possible way, hentai and tentacle porn is made for virgin boys who are either intimidated by female sexuality or just want to fuck their mommies. It's a big leap to go from Busty Asian Beauties (which didn't even appear to be genuine Asian porn so much as an American fetish mag) to bug-eyed cartoon girls getting three-way raped by slime monsters while screaming in baby voices.

His low-key feminization fetish I will accept though, since it started in the Kripke era and sort of makes sense with his sexual confusion.

The slasher movie thing doesn't feel so much out of character as it just came out of nowhere. If Dean really had a geekboner for Freddie Kruger you'd think he would have mentioned it once in the 13 seasons preceding that episode. Like Sam and his serial killer obsession. Why couldn't Sam have been the geeky one for just one episode?

And the Scooby-do thing is getting played out. It was cute in the actual episode, but the underpants were too much. I get that the show has become a mockery of itself, but maybe tone it down a smidge?

What else? He knows the names of transformers? I guess that's fine. He probably watched a lot of TV in the 80s
>let's bring their abuser back, that sure is a good idea
Yeah, that pissed me off too. The whole thing felt so disingenuous and inconsistent with everything we came to learn about John after he died. The man who famously would only tell Dean he was proud of him right before he died, who left his kid to rot in a group home for losing the money doing the thing he taught him, suddenly giving tearful speeches about how much he loved his sons. I didn't buy it.
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If the writers are going to shove boring ass fillers down our throats, why not show things like this that are actually interesting? Yes, having the brothers plus Jack being all happy for one episode was nice, but it was nice to see them happy, not the episode. Do you get it? Why not show Cas bonding with the brothers? With Dean, watching all these movies? Maybe at the end of the episode, have something plot-related? Today's episode was so nice because we got to see Cas and his son together, and it was such a relief to have another Cas episode... Also, how can they write things like this (Dean and Cas watching movies together), and then get mad at the fans for thinking 'huh that's kinda gay'? The cowboy episode was drenched in destiel subtext, and I can't wrap my mind why they won't let them at least hold hands
Not even a kiss, maybe another hug that's not so bro-like, a forehead touch, anything. I know the writers are shit but I assume that part of it never happening is because Jensen is still very against it. Urgh!

Man, I totally forgot Dean's into hentai. I think he would enjoy it when younger, but I remember how embarrassing it was to listen to Sam point out that he's into it. Felt like one of the writers was trying to get the "teen audience" or some shit like that.

>The slasher movie thing doesn't feel so much out of character as it just came out of nowhere.

that episode would have been way better if it was about Sam's interest in these type of movies, not Dean. Too much Dean-centric episodes, let his brother have some screentime, yeah? Honestly I can't even point out what's Sam's character now, nor his personality. He's like a background character and I hate it

>And the Scooby-do thing is getting played out. It was cute in the actual episode, but the underpants were too much.

scoobynatural as a whole felt too out of place, it was the weirdest episode and it was so sudden I was ??? only good thing about it was Cas, of course
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Ergh, I totally forgot about that reform home episode? The fuck? John was such a bad dad, didn't he physically harm Dean at some point too? Yeah, feels like the writers tried to redeem and irredeemable character out of nowhere just because Mary was back and hur dur family time
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Today's episode was nice. Some good points: Cas episode; cute bound with Jack; Misha's acting was amazing; plot-related episode; the Dr.Sexy actor is back; Castiel calling Jack his son.

Now, that talk with Amara went way better than I thought it would. I was expecting some disgusting Dean x Amara pandering but we only saw them talking and Dean being mad at her lol. My stream was shit so I couldn't really listen to their talk about Mary, but I guess it was something bad so yeah fuck Mary. Dean lied to her face, and I wonder if that's going to fuck something up, or if she knows he's lying about not killing her. Also, Sam was almost invisible this episode, but what's new?
Fuck, if Jack's going to die what the fuck is Cas going to do? He's already has his deal with the empty, what CAN he do? Is no one going to stop him? No one going to go 'hey Cas, we're going to find a way for Jack to survive' if he tells Dean about it, that is? Just let another non-winchester character die because they're not the "main" characters? I hate how that's probably what's going to happen, Cas will save Jack and die because there's no way he's going to get the chance to be happy and go to the empty
I don't think anyone is mad at fans for thinking that the episode whose working title was literally "Brokebacknatural" is mad at fans for thinking it was kind of gay. It seems like the people involved with the show have warmed up to Destiel a bit in the last few seasons, and I don't think it's a mistake that they've been putting in more explicit subtext. Before that, specifically S9-12, it really felt like there were a couple of writers that shipped it and nobody else wanted anything to do with it. Maybe it's the current show runners that have change their minds on the topic, or just shifting attitudes on gay representation in media. Doesn't mean they have the balls to go through with it, and every episode that airs makes it more obvious that it's never going to happen. And if it did, it would have to be an explicit proclamation. Just casually throwing in more intimate contact without making their intentions clear would feel weird and out of character.

I kind of feel like Jack was their compromise. Like, they won't canonically put Dean and Castiel into a relationship, but at least they get to be parents together. I have to admit, Jack always taking about his three dads is pretty cute. And as much as I still think Cas' character got shafted when they decided to revolve it around Jack, him and Dean bickering over their parenting skills is hilarious.
>Felt like one of the writers was trying to get the "teen audience" or some shit like that
That or someone just not understanding what hentai is or how it appeals to its audience but still going in for that cheap laugh. I think young Dean would have mercilessly ridiculed anyone who liked tentacle porn. The only kind of anime I could ever see him enjoying is the western-influenced stuff like Cowboy Bebop, Outlaw Star and Samurai Champloo, or seinen samurai anime, since the modern samurai mythos shares a lot in common with the cowboy mythos.

>I can't even point out what's Sam's character now
Yeah, he had a much more concrete character back in the Kripke era. He used to be angry, I guess, but a quiet hidden kind of anger that you forgot about because he acted so pleasant until he went and did something stupid. And he was secretive? Actually, I never really connected well with Sam as a character, so his motivations always seemed kind of hazy to me, beyond the obvious quest for revenge and longing to be a normie.

Making him a lover of cheesy slasher flicks probably wouldn't have tracked with the rest of his character, but it would have been nice to have gotten more episodes that explored his interests and what made him tick. I do appreciate that they finally let him develop relationships with other people, since usually Dean's the only one allowed to connect with the side characters. His friendship with Rowena was so sweet. I like the fact that they avoided making it romantic in any way, and her death scene was probably one of the best in the entire series. And Sam is so great with Jack. He fell into the role of father so easily even though he had no obligation to, and he makes such a kind and caring dad. (I do kind of feel like they are phoning it in with Eileen, though. I don't feel the chemistry at all. Guess you gotta have a breeding pair for the endgame, and she was the most viable option.)
>didn't he physically harm Dean at some point too?
It has never been explicitly stated that John ever hit or directly caused physical harm to Dean. There is one line in Dark Side of the Moon that kind of implies it. When Dean is talking about his father's reaction to Sam running away. He says "I looked everywhere for you. And when dad came home..." and he trails off and give a scared look.

I know there is another scene (I don't remember the episode or the context) where someone asks the boys if they know what it feels like to have not eaten for days, and Dean immediately responds with an enthusiastic "yeah!". I think Sam gives him a weird look, too. It's pretty heartbreaking, because you know that if the food was running low and dad hadn't been back when he said he would, Dean probably would have skipped meals to keep Sammy from going hungry.

And then, of course, there was that time their dad left them in a dingy little hotel room for days with no contact and forbid them from leaving, and when little Dean snuck out for like an hour because he couldn't take it anymore the monster JOHN had antagonized came for Sam, and John blamed Dean for it. Like pre-teen Dean was supposed to protect his brother from the powerful supernatural monster. We see him sleeping with a gun under his pillow when he was just 9-fucking-years old. But sure, lets bring the guy who did that to them back for a big ol' hug sess. I'm sure an "I'm sorry" and "I'm proud of you" 12 years too late makes up for all the neglect and emotional trauma he abused them with their entire childhoods. And it was essentially the same scene as the one in In My Time of Dying, back when that had some emotional weight, so I really don't understand what the purpose was.
Was that Dr. Sexy? lol, I didn't even notice. I love it when the re-use actors.

Look, if Jack dies that means Cas will never be happy, and then the Empty will never come to take him away. That's a win right? No?

Basically, Amara said that she brought Mary back to knock her down from the pedestal in Dean's mind and show him that she was only human. Which is pretty fucked up and also definitely a retcon. What does it matter if Dean's memory of his mom was rose-tinted? She was dead, she could be a symbol. And clearly he didn't think she was perfect, because he'd gone to the past and met her already and he was clearly pissed about her demon deal. Amara also said she wanted to break Dean's delusion that his life would have been better if she had been in it, which is double stupid because, flawed or not, Sam and Dean's lives would have been OBJECTIVELY better if she hadn't died.

What I don't get is why Dean kept blowing of Cas this episode. He wasn't angry, it just seemed like he was trying to hide something from him. But all he did was ask Amara a heated question about his mom. That didn't really seem worth all the secrecy.

I'm also glad they dropped the Dean/Amara thing. I never understood what they were trying to do with that, but it was annoying.
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I don't mean being mad at exactly that episode (it was very gay, yeah), but at that twitter drama with the QOTD post and the clearly romantic music that they said it was, actually, all about friendship. Some people may accept destiel now, but unfortuantely there's no way it's happening with all those white fat boomers in charge of the show

And I never realized but, yeah, maybe Jack being their son is all we're going to get. I don't mind it, I really like Jack but if only we had more scenes with Dean and Cas interacting with Jack as their son.... * sad sigh *
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Early seasons Sam had a little bit of more personality, now it feels like he's more comfortable with talking than beating the shit out of Dean when he fucks things up. But I may say that I like him better now, only recently I was able to take a step back to observe his character and go 'hey, I really like this guy!'
While Dean gets more and more bitchy (and more spotlight) through the seasons, Sam just feel very dull. I want him to interact with Cas like before, and both of them spent so much time reading all those books about how to take care of a child? Peak parenting, I want them to bound over Jack too

>I do appreciate that they finally let him develop relationships with other people

We did see him trying to be a leader for those au people but it felt so flat and it was just...not very good. And Sam doesn't look very good with a beard, that's more a Jared thing than Sam. I'm glad he and Eileen are a thing now, both of them are very cute together and she's not insufferable; wish he had more male friends tho. Now that I think about it, I really miss the other hunters (Bob, Ellen, Jo, Ash, etc)
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Oh, I just watched that episode. Something Wicked (01x18) was surprisingly sad and I almost cried with the flashbacks, seeing how Dean took care of his little brother to the point of not eating so Sam could have what to eat.....urgh. I'm pretty sure John physically abused Dean, and he tried his best so Sam wouldn't go through the same thing.

The only good thing to come out of that episode was season 4 Cas, all powerfull and giving 0 shits about human life. It was quite refreshing, then sad, because I realized he's nerfed now
>Look, if Jack dies that means Cas will never be happy, and then the Empty will never come to take him away. That's a win right? No?

as if something good like that could happen, you look at this show and tell me there's a god

>Which is pretty fucked up and also definitely a retcon

Hm, now that I think about it you're right. But I don't think their lives would have been better if she survived, I don't know it's shitty writing how she was portrayed (prob shitty writing) but she didn't seem like a good, inteligent and nice person at all. Maybe Sam could have been more close to her, but the idea of Mary being alive for me is just...ergh, their parents just seem like shitty people

At first I didn't like Amara at all, but now that she's past her emo phase an finally being herself, she's nice. Thank god for no Amara/Dean
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wow, the days go by quickly when you're not excited for a new episode
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Well, the new episode was alright, can't find many good points though. We had no Cas or Jack, but Dean told Sam about Jack's deal and we got to see Sam being a character again

Now, I don't understand why the brothers are still keeping stuff from each other? It's the last season for fucks sake, don't we deserve some character growth? And didn't they drop this shit seasons ago? It's always the same thing, keeping something a secret, fighting, then hugging and crying and some dumb sacrifice (what a surprise)
The child actors didn't really look like the brothers at all, and it was just another episode to push more trauma on Dean's character with no time (last fucking season!!! last episodes!!) to explore it; and he was way too ooc. Calling Sam a dumbass? really? and it was a miracle that the girl wasn't a romantic interest
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Destiel just went canon. We won bros. We won.
Sorry to jump in, I don't watch this show much at all, I just know it exists and this is a popular pairing. Didn't the last episodes not air yet? It is a leak. Please explain. I tried to read on it myself. I just want to understand, what the fuck happened?
No it didn't. Cas is gay for Dean but Dean didn't reciprocate. This is why I never wanted it to be made official in any capacity.
Not a leak. Castiel sacrificed himself for Dean.
I don't really go here but an one-sided ship still counts as canon technically, doesn't it?
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I can't fucking believe it. This is an old, old ship, and now here we are. Pretty much all of what I've got is fucking ancient but sure yeah I'll contribute a lil in light of every fan, past and present, collectively imploding.

Obviously nothing from later seasons in here, I haven't been in this shit in eight years.
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Fuckin' captcha, I'm not a robot I'm a confused motherfucker
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Kill me in the face with this sappy shit.
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It's semi-canon. There's romantic feelings but it's unfortunately one-sided
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Don't actually watch this show, but I saw a clip of that angel falling into super hell on fire. Funniest shit I've seen in a while
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Fucking hallelujah! Nothing else matters now.

It's not a leak, it's the latest episode, and there are two more episodes left after it. Enough time for Dean to resolve how he's feeling. Maybe even enough time for them to resurrect Castiel for the literal 7th time.

Just because he didn't immediately fall into Cas' arms and profess his undying love for him in the 20 seconds it took Cas to confess, yeet him against a wall and die, doesn't mean Dean doesn't reciprocate. Dean's feelings are still unclear. The script leak said that after "On Cas", which means it was describing what Cas is thinking and feeling. We already know that he believed Dean didn't reciprocate. The "On Dean" directions only say that he's shocked.

Dean probably doesn't know what he's feeling right now. He's literally only said "I love you" once and it was to his mommy. Give him a fucking minute to process.

But if you really want your answer now go back and re-watch Free to Be You and Me, The Man Who Would be King, The Born-Again Identity, A Little Slice of Kevin, Goodbye Stranger, No Angel, Heaven Can't Wait, Lily Sunder Has Some Regrets, that complete meltdown he had in Lost and Found, Tombstone, The Trap, the extremely suspicious confession he gave in Paint it Black, Pamala as his subconscious in Nihilism asking why he only wants things he can't have, and just like every single time Dean has stared dumbly into Cas' eyes for waaay longer than any dude just being a bro would.

Thank you for sharing your treasures with us, senpai. My folder is still under 10,000, but i'm trying to catch up.
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I feel like people who don't watch the show should understand the context that Cas has gone to "super hell" a whole 6 times before this one, as have most of the major characters in this series, and that literally every person on earth also died that episode except for Sam, Dean and Jack. There's this weird idea people seem to have that the show is punishing him for being gay, but really they just have a hard-on for "killing" characters at the drop of a hat only to bring them back later. In fact, Dean and Cas literally met in hell.
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Man, what a time to be alive. And I told you (if you're the same anon I was discussing the series/episodes in this thread?) that it wouldn't be canon....wow. I still have no words. I don't care if Dean was so shocked he couldn't say a word. I don't care that we only have two episodes for the end. Cas is canonically gay and in love with Dean (DUH!!!) and i'm just...so happy. Man, I'm so happy! Wincest shippers are so pissed and making fun of the scene but I'm 100% in heaven. I can't believe it.
I was quite disappointed that Dean didn't say a word, but knowing Dean (unlike these people who haven't watched the show in years and are now calling Jensen homophobic) and how constipated he is with feelings, it felt very in character for him. He even cried later, and again Cas died without seeing how hurt and broken Dean was. I'm sad Sam lost Eileen too (and the parallels with lovers, Charlie/Stevie, Sam/Eileen and Dean/Cas???? wow) and Misha's acting was just amazing

I don't want to believe that Cas may come back, because I don't want to be sad and disappointed if he doesn't but....I still have a little faith.
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I'm pretty annoyed by people flooding the tags who have either never watched the show or haven't kept up with it for the last 8 years accusing the writers and Jensen of being homophobic because of how he acted that scene. If you don't know the context or the characters, or the fact that Dean's inability to process his emotions in a healthy way has been an explicit focus this season, then your two cents are worthless. Destiel is the world's slowest slowburn. Of course it isn't going to resolve in a minute-long scene. And Jensen's acting was far from wooden or emotionless. He was showing shock and confusion and dawning realization and fear and sorrow, and he expressed them in exactly the way Dean has been built to behave. And it isn't the conclusion, in the hero's journey Dean has reached his "darkest hour". It serves a narrative purpose that he gets thrown into the pit of despair and that all seems hopeless at this part of the story. People need to fuck off back to their own fandoms and let us have our victory. We've earned it, they haven't.

Mostly, I'm looking forward to being able to watch the series again and say definitively that all of the reckless and irrational things Castiel does for Dean is because he deeply and desperately is in love with him in a yes homo kind of way.

The parallels were pretty great. People keep pointing out more little details, like how Stevie told Charlie the key to cooking good eggs was to go slow and not rush them (like the way Cas has gone slow and not rushed Dean), and Charlie said they were the best eggs she'd ever had in her life, but first she had to put her guns aside to eat (the way Dean needs to put his anger aside to experience love). It might be a stretch, but it feels too perfect.

Somebody else pointed out that the silo Sam sheltered the hunters in resembled a tower, and that The Tower tarot card represents "Misery, distress, indigence, adversity, calamity, disgrace, deception, ruin". Food for thought.
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I laughed at some jokes, but then the homophobic ones started to come and...really? are they really going to call Misha homophobic too? Misha??? It's so stupid, and today I've seem some drama with some stupid people not accepting that these jokes can actually harm the actors and the fans who have deep bonds with the characters. Re-watching the scene and spending some time looking at gifs made me realize the little details of Jensen's acting. How scared and surprised Dean was, it really fit the character and yeah, if you didn't watch the last seasons you won't be able to see it.

>Destiel is the world's slowest slowburn

Man...yeah, I don't think they took the relationship seriously until these last few seasons, and some people argue that it's only canon because it's the writers payback on Jensen for pulling the plug on the show. Which I think it's really fucking stupid. But I'm glad it's now canon that all those little moments, the longing on Cas' eyes when looking at Dean, when he was jealous of Benny, the hurt in his eyes when Anna kissed Dean...it was love. Pure love and he did everything for the man he loved so much. URGH!!! So cute

Wow, these parallels are new for me, but I don't think the writers are smart enough to write those (not the tower one at least, but it's neat)
I don't watch this shit, but did fujos really forced their way into canon through strong persistence? That's quite based, I have to say.
>some people argue that it's only canon because it's the writers payback on Jensen for pulling the plug on the show.
That's a new one for me. I don't understand why people reach so far to turn a good thing bad. Jensen has played a bisexual character before. He's been kind and supportive of LGBT fans he meets online and at conventions. He might have taken a stance against Destiel 10 years ago, but back then fandoms were terrible at policing themselves and he was frequently getting harassed with inappropriate questions about him and his male coworkers at conventions. It makes sense that he would have wanted to distance himself. But since he's learned that people wanting Destiel has more to do with positive representation and it's not just about fans getting their rocks off imaging him and his best friend together, his attitude has clearly changed. In the last five years he has been more playful and lighthearted when answering questions about it, and he is clearly more comfortable with the idea. Anyone who thinks he's upset with this development should look at his attitude during their Entertainment Weekly photoshoot, which apparently happened right after shooting 15X18. Doesn't look like a man disgusted by having to play love interest to the dude he's giving a big smooch on the cheek.

I've never heard of this "Jensen pulling the plug" story before, but the show needed to end so good on him if he had a hand in it, especially if it means Destiel got a resolution. It would have been so much worse if the show just got randomly cancelled and nothing was ever resolved.
>I don't think they took the relationship seriously until these last few seasons
I maintain my theory that there was an honest attempt to make it canon in S8, but they chickened out. Man, thinking about how Naomi forced Cas to kill those hundreds of fake Deans. How she literally tried to lobotomize the gay out of him, multiple times. That's rough. And his first act as new God was to go smite a homophobic pastor, too.

If there is one "problematic" hot take to glean from this it would probably be that heaven and God super don't approve of them being together, but the people criticizing don't actually watch the show so they don't know that part. I think it makes the ship all the better, though. You don't need your parents approval to be yourself. Fuck God. Heaven's full of assholes with no free will, anyways. Dean and Cas might not have been destined to be, but Cas chose it anyways. They weren't a match made in heaven, but a match made on Earth. That's so freaking romantic!

I think you're right, though, that they've been taking the ship a lot more seriously in the last few seasons. There have been less flirty and comedic Destiel moments, but a lot more emotionally raw moments. I think they've been building to this since Dabb took over in S12.
More like they've been gaslighting us for 12 seasons and finally came clean. "The very touch of you corrupts. From the moment Castiel laid a hand on you in hell he was lost" was gay 8 seasons ago. "You drape yourself in the banner of heaven, but it was all really about saving one human" was gay 6 seasons ago. He's always been gay.

But it goes a little further than that. The writers have basically written themselves into the show as the final villain that the characters must defeat in order to reclaim their free will. God, the final boss, is a writer and obvious stand in for the script writers. He has been manipulating their lives for entertainment the entire time, and now that they are aware of him they refuse to go along with his plans. Castiel, who is a character that was only supposed to be around for 6 episodes but who has become a main character due to his overwhelming popularity, is the only one that God can't control and who won't follow his plans. And apparently the reason for that was because he fell in love with Dean, which I guess in this metaphor is a stand-in for shipping? It's all very meta.
Are people into this show really this autistic or is it just the people in this thread?
Serious question, you all genuinely scare me...
I'm sorry that words intimidate you.
Dude just stop trying to protect Jensen. I don't care if he is a homophobe IRL, but they didn't tell him for 9 fucking months for a goddamn reason. Also you can hate gays and still play them as an actor, it's called acting, not being Yalitza Aparicio and playing a role you were born to play.
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People saying that are bibros/wincest shippers that seem pretty pissed that Jensen said yes for the scene to happen, and now are in a weird state of denial and ignorance. Oh well!
And yes, it's blatantly obvious that Jensen is not the same person he was years ago and destiel is not that weird ship with weird shippers anymore. Today we had a panel with Misha and the cast, and it feels so weird to hear him talk about destiel and how Cas WAS coming out for Dean and the confession was 100% gay. Mark S and Ruth said they got emotional over the scene, and Misha was happy about it, but worried about the fandom's reaction

>I've never heard of this "Jensen pulling the plug" story before

I read somewhere that Jensen was the first one to ask for the end of the show
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I don't remember much of season 8, only purgatory and how gay it was. Looking back, Cas was super jealous of Benny and Dean was...realizing his feelings. He missed Cas so much, searching for him like a madman and that's why I think that maybe, only maybe...Dean will confess to Cas too. I feel like he likes Cas, but doesn't know it or doesn't know how to put it into words, that's why I'm expecting a hug or some forehead touching if Cas comes back
The only angel who probably understands Cas is Michael, since he spent so many years with Adam in hell and it's totally in love with him too lol. Gay angels against god!
But the bloody hand print was Jensen’s idea? I think Jensen’s problem has always been with leading fans onto believe it was going to happen when he knew it wasn’t, but he’s got no problem actually doing it
Okay, well last episode was trash and I hated it and I'm very angry. I get that they did it to appease the fans that only like the brothers, but it was such a shitty way to wrap up this season's story arc. It felt rushed, the characters weren't even acting like themselves, there were a bunch of plot holes in their plan ("Sam is working out a way to translate the enochian" Dean says to Michael, an angel who is fluent in enochian), Dean delivered a cringey "how we beat you" monologue like it was an episode of Scooby Doo, and even people who hate Destiel have to admit it's weird Sam seemingly forgot all about Eileen and didn't even text her when Jack set the world back.

The solution to beating Chuck should have been rooted in the show's core themes of family, like the solutions to beating Lucifer and Amara did. Instead they beat him because they were clever, persistent and lucky. And then their family split up even more when Jack left them, regressing them back to the place they were when the show started. You can't end it with them going back to the beginning; they're different people than they were back then. I nearly threw my drink at the TV during that cheesy montage. It all felt so hollow. There was not catharsis and nothing was resolved.

I get that that episode was just the "season finale" and that next episode is the "series finale" and "true ending", but the fact that I have to accept anything that happened in 15x19 at all infuriates me. The whole thing was garbage and could only be redeemed by completely retconning it at the beginning of the next episode with a massive "psyche!". Only saving graces were Dean with that dog and the look on Dean's face when he saw Lucifer at the door.

At least with that over there's essentially nothing left for them in the final episode to do besides Destiel. I swear to fucking god though, if they pull a Harry Potter and Dean has a daughter named Cassie then somebody is going to die.
What if they pull a Harry Potter with Destiel having a son named Bobby?
In general, I don't really like epilogues. I think the author should resolve the story and then get the hell out to let the fans (and their fanfiction) imagine what comes next. But if either of the brothers have any kids they better as hell name them after Bobby before they name them after John or Mary. The problem is that Dean and Cas already have a son, and he should be living with them now and having a normal life, not being some dumb raindrop.
>I think Jensen’s problem has always been with leading fans onto believe it was going to happen when he knew it wasn’t
Agreed. I think he also knew that making Destiel canon would have likely lead to Castiel's death, because the show runs on suffering and a happy couple would have been antithetical to drama and narrative tension. Even sitcoms know this, which is why they keep their leads in an unending will-the/won't-they cycle. Supernatural has essentially been doing the same thing for 12 year, but since the couple is same-sex it's been more ambiguous to some people. The only way they could resolve it with a happy ending is if they did it when the show was going to end anyways, and Jensen understood that. He didn't want Destiel to be canon because he didn't want his best friend killed off and written out of the show.

Also, on the topic of them not telling Jensen about the ending until just before shooting: Jensen himself has said that he doesn't read the scripts beforehand because he doesn't want knowledge of what's to come to subconsciously inform his acting decisions. It makes sense that they would have told Misha first, since Castiel obviously knows the way he feels about Dean and has been thinking about what a moment of pure happiness would look like for him ever since he made his deal. On the other hand, Dean, if he is aware of the thing between him and Cas at all, probably understands it at a more repressed and subconscious level, and it's not something he would be actively thinking about this season, so why would they give Jensen the heads up?

Other points: Jensen directed 11x03, which included scenes of aggressive blanketing and tender face-holding. He has apparently acted out tender face-holding before, but the directors always cut it out. Also, Danneel clearly ships it, and he'll do whatever she says.
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Man, when I finished the last episode I had no words. I couldn't believe what I was watching, and I had to close the steam before that horrible, weird joke-like collage finished. The part of the fandom I had contact with (discord and twitter) thought and still think the episode was a big joke, and we'll get our true happy ending next week. Cas back, Jack back, Eileen back, all the hunters safe and sound again. Because it's just not possible that they will finish the show JUST like it started, right? The writers are not THAT retard, right???
Honestly, I don't have hope anymore. I don't think Cas is coming back, because that would mean listening to the audience and making destiel canon in some way, which means making Dean canon bi and GOD FORBID. Why would Sam just ignore Eileen being back, not even a call after how much he suffered with her being dead? Jack becoming GOD (with the most weird, embarrassingly bad plan ever) and not bringing Castiel back? HIS DAD? Dean just going 'yep, Cas is dead...time to hit the road' and not fighting for him? Finding a way to bring him back? Remember how the spent all his time in purgatory searching for him? It makes no sense.
Why a bronly ending? Who asked for this shit? Do they really think the couple of people still watching this shit care for nostalgia anymore? abloabloalbo like good old times? They're completely different characters, and it's funny that they're old but they have no growth at all. They gave us young Dean/Sam and it was horrible, the actors were bad and didn't even look like Sam and Dean.

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The plan to defeat God was...what even was it again? I guess Jack was sucking life from plants and, uh? Dean pulled this new spell from his ass and Jack sucked Chuck's powers in the end?
And Michael and Adam being dead and no one bats an eye to that? What the fuck happened to Heaven? the angels? Empty? The fucking empty maybe???huh??? Did I really had to sit through one hour of pure bad written bibro fanfic to watch Lucifer come back, bait Cas' return, make some stupid jokes and die again? Really? REALLY?
And that fucking stupid ass dog, that the winchesters forgot about even though Dean was excited with the idea of a dog?
FUCK those new carvings on the table. "To all the people we lost" my fucking ASS! Is this some fucking monkey paw bullshit? We lost Cas for being a threat to Dean's heterosexuality and all he got was some stupid bait and his name on the table? Jack is still around but he's "hands off" now???? WHY?? Everyone saw that coming but are you fucking serious?? Suddely he's god and he fucks off and neither Sam or Dean ask him to stay? And that speach was so ooc, the whole episode felt like someone spent the night reading the wiki and decided to write a script. How did we go from a monumental, good, Cas heavy episode, so sad and heartbreaking to Dean saying Sam is trying tO TRANSLATE ENOCHIAN TO A FUCKING ANGEL

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I'm not even pissed anymore. I can't feel a thing unless Cas comes back (he isn't). At least today we had Jensen's panel, and he talked about episode 18 and how important it was for him and Misha. They texted each other with reaction videos and memes (probably the mega turbo hell ones) and Misha told him when destiel was trending. Jensen told someone to record the scene for him, and some parts were cut from the episode. I wonder if Dean said something gay? Jensen also said he didn't want to put Dean on a box, so the fans can picture him as bisexual/gay I guess? He said Dean didn't know about Cas feelings because he's a celestial being and was confused if he (Cas) could feel at all? It's what I remember I guess. It seems destiel will go as "open for interpretation" which sucks ass because we have Misha and the cast saying it's canon, and then Jensen saying it's open.
I just want this show to end already so I can try to forget about it. Not even fanfics or fanarts will make me feel what I felt for this show once. sigh
You people had too much fucking investment in this show. You should have realized it was going to end with a shitty ending. But nope you all had to say I was wrong about the queerbaiting shit.
I was holding my breath for a post-credit stinger of Becky telling Chuck how terrible that ending was, and telling him to try again. I'm still half-hoping that's how the final episode will start. They seriously let their two worst writers script the season finale, and it shows. Re-watching Lost and Found after that episode was a good pallet cleanser. You know, the one where Dean actually mourned Cas' death, and didn't forget about him after, like, 2 hours on the road.

I do still have a lot of hope for the final episode, though. Misha can't control himself enough to keep a secret, so he's basically let it slip half a dozen times that 15x18 wasn't his final ep. All of the cast and crew have been pretty cagey about what will happen, but they notably haven't posted any farewells to Castiel. And I trust Dabb enough as a writer to not drop something big like that confession and then never resolve it. He will be back.

It's just that 15x19 was so fucking bad that I don't even want to accept it as canon. If it were any other season then whatever, the writing has been subpar for years and I'll accept your plothole-ridden asspulls. But NOW? As the finish for the final big bad, and after such a good track record this season? It has to be a joke.
It think part of the problem is that they are trying to divide the audience into people who care about the plot (Chucks) and people who care about the characters (Beckys), but the two are inextricable. If a writer has done their job right then we should all care about both, and the resolution to the plot should also be the resolution to the character arcs and relevant to the over-arcing themes. Kripke knew this, which is why in order to beat Lucifer Sam had to stop running and accept responsibility for his role and Dean had to let go of his over-protective instincts and self-sacrificial nature and trust his brother, and the final thing that finished him off was their brotherly love. And Amara, too. The key to defeating her wasn't for Dean to blow himself up with a massive soul-bomb, but to talk to her from the perspective of a sibling, and convince her to make amends with her brother. It all comes full circle that way, and the resolution feels earned.

But this resolution had nothing to do with family and nothing to do with love. They just tricked him with a plot contrivance they pulled out of their asses. How is it possible that Cas, the proverbial "spanner in the works" and allegedly the only thing that Chuck couldn't control played no part in Chuck's defeat? How is it possible that a show about the importance of family ended by tearing Jack (a literal 3-year-old) away from his? How does becoming the new God resolve anything about Jack's character conflict, his desire to belong or his quest for redemption and forgiveness? How could, after all that has happened, Sam and Dean be completely fine with just going back on the road to hunt vamps or some shit again. Why dIDN'T SAM TEXT EILEEN? WHY DIDN'T DEAN EVEN ASK JACK ABOUT CAS? WHY INTRODUCE A NEW CHARACTER JUST TO KILL HER TWO MINUTES LATER? FUCK YOU BUCKLEMMING YOU HACKS I HOPE YOU BURN!

The carvings were a slap in the face. A hollow gesture that was not supported by the text of the episode at all.
Jensen said that, as an actor, it's not his place to tell the audience what he was expressing in a scene. He said that the acting should speak for itself. That doesn't mean he made it intentionally ambiguous, it means that he's not going to spoon-feed people Dean's inner thoughts because he has integrity as an artist (and because there is still another episode that will likely address just that). He also said the scene was longer in the original cut, and the editors trimmed it down for time. A lot of the criticism people had of that scene was that Dean seemed unaffected by Cas' words, so he was probably trying to address that. I would interpret that to mean Dean got more emotional in the scenes that were cut. I did find it odd that in the over-the-shoulder shot you can clearly see his eyes brimming with tears, but that's not in the shot directly before, so I would assume some of the cut footage was there.

Also, his explanation that Dean didn't see Cas as a viable romantic option because he didn't think angel's were capable of human love basically validates about 90% of DeanCas fics ever written. The fact that he said it's because he's an angel and not because he's a dude is pretty incredible in itself. I think some people don't realize how mixed the signals Dean has gotten from Cas are. As the audience, we so how dearly Cas cares for Dean, how far he has gone to help him and how lost he is without him. But from Dean's perspective Cas is in and out of his life constantly, always ignoring his calls and prayers, seemingly always having something better to do then stay with him, frequently taking actions that imply a distrust in Dean. And Cas isn't great on the whole open communication thing either, so Dean has no idea what's going on with him. SPN is basically just the world's longest miscommunication fic.
I'm like 80% convinced that spn would still be good if it weren't for fucking bucklemming ruining it all of these years. You've got Dabb, Berens, Glynn and Perez consistently churning out episodes that are decent to great, trying to keep the sinking ship afloat, but every time bucklemming script an episode they take such a fat nasty shit all over the place that it infects everything around it. How did they stay so long on the show without people noticing their incompetence? How did they become executive producers? Who let that happen?

Have faith though, Destiel is real and will be reciprocated next episode. I'd bet my life savings on it.
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I still have high hopes for the next episode, but it is pretty lame that they are doing a motw schtick. I have no doubt that it will be a fake-out, but I hope they don't waste too much of the remaining 42 minutes of the show on that nonsense.

Anyways, I'm going to kill the thread so that we there is a fresh one for tomorrow.
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That wraps this one up. Please move to the new thread here: >>3508562

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