If every single primate in the world went extinct, which species would go on to become sapient first?
>>4459658Yup, probably avians. My first thought went to orcas or octopi, however being aquatic cucks your ability to make fire, kneecapping them at the getgo.
>>4459656I was going to say corvids but since >>4459658 beat me to it I think Raccoons would be in the running as well. They have dexterous hands and are reasonably clever, if they became social animals I could see them getting far.
>>4459662Though I do wanna add, orcas and beluga wale communication would make for an amazing society since they use sonar, they can send and receive 3d pictures or mental dioramas to and fro. Imagine how much less confusion and more understanding and clarity we would have between each other if our language literally let us share our points of view. We could interlace them for extremely harmonious cooperation, see music and sing with pictures. The possibilities for a civilized lifeform like that would be endless.
>>4459658You will never be sapient. You have no lips. You have no hands. You have no internal eggs.>>4459667Bears are dumb as fuck, at least relative to their close peers like raccoons, which in turn have a very high concentration of synapses.
>>4459658This, corvids are already comparable to Australopiths.
Dolphins and birds will forever be stuck with shitty body plans for tool use. I'd bet on raccoons or maybe even bears. I know bears are dumb but who knows what their potential is. Considering how varied their diets are and how useful their hands are, it's weird that they aren't smart already.
>>4459721Birds don't have a shitty body plan.They are very dexterous with their feet and can do a lot with their beaks as well.I don't see any limitation here, they could do the same things as humans with minor modifications to our tools.
>>4459747They can make the best of what they have, but it's not good enough. We can use our mouths as tools as well, but only do it when there are no better options. Birds can't walk on two legs and use two hands, five fingers each, at the same time. Spears might be the most important invention in history. How is a bird going to throw a spear? How are they going to rub two stones together to make fire?
>>4459759why would they need to throw a spear? is that necessary to form a civilization? high-speed beak and talons seem good enough to me
>>4459763Don't bother. He's probably one of those people who think that in order for a species to be successful they need to exactly copy humans and follow our exact path of advancement.
>>4459763NTA, but the creation of fire is often considered to be the pivotal point in human evolution towards sapience. Aside from all the social implications of gathering around a visually striking phenomenon, it is the key to processing and refining various objects. It taught hominids to treat food as more than just something that goes straight to the mouth.There are plenty of ways to make fire, though. Life finds a way.
>>4459763>>4459766So far there's been no other path. It's the primates who won for a reason. Bird anatomy isn't just different, it's a straight up downgrade when it comes to tool use. Hands are more useful than feet for tool use, as you can stay in a steady position and hold the object right in front of your eyes. The body plans of humans also changed significantly as we became more intelligent. It's not going to be as easy for birds.
>>4459786I don't understand. Hands are clearly more useful for our tools, but why wouldn't birds develop tools that were convenient for them?
>>4459669They could be sapient but be some kind of wild wise species instead of developing technology. Their advances will be limited to tactics and art
>>4459789Yeah, I can see birds hunting with nets instead of spears, drop a net on an eagle in mid flight and it falls for its death. Birds already use fire for hunting but they don’t make it themselves. Making fire will probably be a consequence of tool making any piece of wood spinning fast on other wood be it for drilling or pulley systems. A bird could make rope with its body plan and placing a rope on the top of a tree would be easier for them. Corvids also are forming relation to wolves and use them to hunt large prey increasing the chance of success of the wolves but also allowing them to eat prey too big for them to take down so they are on the path to domesticating animals. They could use a pulley system and animal power to pull stuff up high places be it for storing food or building a home. Eventually such system could lead to accidental fire or a smart one might realize that friction produces heat. From this they will have a way to make fire as well. I need to write down all my ideas someday.
>>4459788No, I proposed raccoons and bears. I even consider octopi but I suspect there's some bottleneck like their maximum age. >>4459789Maybe if they make some absurd technological leap that we can't comprehend, but it starts at the most basic shit. Sticks and rocks were never meant to be convenient, it's our hands that were convenient. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=M5JFeTtSS3cLook at this test. You can't be sure whether a corvid is able to do it physically. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=s2IBayVsbz8Now look at this. Regardless of intelligence, a raccoon could physically do this with ease
>>4459813How do red pandas compare? I'm rooting for them because they are cute as fuck.
>>4459788>No other life in the universe hasDamn straight, or at least in this part of the galaxy.If sapience were common in the universe, surely we would have picked up a meaningful signal by now.
>>4459831Probably not that intelligent, considering they eat leaves and bamboo and are solitary. Also interesting, raccoons weren't always as smart. Raiding cities is making them smart. Raccoons in nature are less intelligent.
>>4459656none of them
>>4459813Can you use your superior hands and intellect to build a nest like this in a similar time frame?
>>4459861I could certainly learn how to.
>>4459656Many of them already are sapient dipshit
>>4459870Prove it then. Go outside, pick some fresh grass and start weaving. You have the entire internet for information, a much bigger brain and superior human hands, the most dexterous hands in the universe. It should be much easier for you than for a dumb bird. Come back here with results once concluded.
>>4459881Can your stupid bird make this? Clearly bees have the best anatomy for tool use.
Aren't rodents closely related to primates? Some of them are arguably even more dexterous than raccoons, and they can make structures to manipulate the environment.
>>4459881Come on, we can make extremely complex steel/glass/concrete buildings with our primate hands
>>4459747It's not the body plan, it's the brain structureFor real self aware intelligence to appear, you need a chaotic, prone to failure brain like a mammal'sBird's brains are too precise, they can only become extremely good at fulfilling their instincts
>>4459759>How is a bird going to throw a spear?You're an idiot, a bird doesn't have to throw a spear, it can fucking fly. It can just dive bomb with them.
>>4459901That's right, a bird doesn't have the need to develop intelligence to be able to throw a spear
>>4459904It does need intelligence to make the spear. Seems you don't need intelligence to make your dipshit posts.
>>4459897Yes but can you make a simple grass nest?
Bears are slightly more intelligent than apes
>>4459889I legit would love to see how smart a colony can get. An ant colony can learn and remember things for longer than any individual ant can live.
>>4459901Would they just drag the entire thing up into the air and aim while flying without the trajectory being affected by the wind? And they can't even do anything with just a wooden spear, as those wouldn't fall with the point downwards.I want to add that human hands were able to evolve specifically for tool use and nothing else, whereas bird feet will always partially function as feet
>>4459656NONE OF THEM. HUMANS ALL THE WAY TO THE BANK
>>4459656this would destroy the established order of things so badly. my guess is we'd be seeing humanoids again after a long long while and THEN we would see the return of sapience
>>4459656Kangaroos. they're basically fucked up deerchimps. Already bipedal with hands. Since they're landlocked I'll go with dogs next because I think their social structure and manipulation by humans gives them a leg up.
>>4459747The most essential skills for the evolution of humans were the ability to crack open animal bones to eat the marrow and the ability to kill large animals with spears. Both of these tasks require a considerable amount of strength. Birds will struggle to acquire the necessary strength to crack bones open or chuck spears large enough to kill prey.
>>4459912It would be more like darts than a spear. On the other hand they can use weapons designed for their body. I have some ideas of weapons that take advantage of birds lifestyle>>4459924Birds already crack bones for marrow by being smarter than you and finding a solution for a problem you think it would be impossible for them and corvids use wolves to kill large prey. They could do it with traps and different kinds of weapons as well.
>>4459912>Would they just drag the entire thing up into the air and aim while flying without the trajectory being affected by the wind?You really are a fucking moron, do you have any idea what dive bombing it? Pro-tip, it's not dropping the thing from hundreds of meters in the air dipshit.
>>4459924At least they won't become ketoschizos.
>>4459813Age has less to do with it than their ability to pass on information.
>>4459924>Birds will struggle to acquire the necessary strength to crack bones open or chuck spears large enough to kill prey.
>>4459965Yeah, the only thing bigger than that guy ego is his ignorance. The bearded vulture name in Spanish is "el quebrahesos" that is literally "the bone breaker" a bird specially known to break bones for food. Birds also break open stuff from nuts to turtles in a similar way and do so in ways that humans would have much more trouble replicating with their body plan. You just develop different techniques and tools fitting your body plan.
>>4459965>>4459975I for one think being able to crack bones is a dumb test of sapience
>>4459924We shouldn't group ALL birds into one category
>>4459977And that anon couldn't even figure how to do it without hands or take advantage of a different body plan.
>>4459747Can't do shit only using one hand, because the other is occupied for standing on.No beaks aren't hands.
I'm betting on wombats. They're smarter than you'd think. I think they're up to something.
This thread always devolves into Birdfags vs Raccoontrannies vs Bearchads
>>4459861Can it make something different?
>>4459981>Can't do shit only using one handWrong, just ask a friend if you need a second hand.
>>4459987Sure, the young ones have to learn how to make that but the point is not about the intelligence of that specific bird that I even called “dumb” the point was about how dexterity and how the anon insists that human hands are the best thing ever and you can’t do shit without human hands. If human hands are so great and not only he have human hands, (assumed) human brain and even access to the internet as massive information source that mankind lacked for most of its existence he should be able to make something as simple as a grass nest made by a creature without hands. It doesn’t require a special organ or anatomy like bee combs or termite mounds, all it requires is fresh grass and being dextrous enough to tie and weave them together in shape. He even have the advantage of being bigger and stronger so he can pick thousands of blades of grass and carry them all together to the desired location instead of doing it one by one. If he with all those advantages can’t replicate it means that he overestimated human dexterity because he lives in a world modified by humans to suit them (tools) or that he underestimated other animals capabilities because he keeps trying to use humans suited for humans on non-humanoid bodies or both.
>>4459996>wall of defensive prattleOne angry beak pecked this out one letter at a time
>>4459996>a world modified by humans to suit them (tools)the thing birds can't do. either they are just far dumber than we thought and rigid, non self aware thinkers operating on a much more mechanical level than we are, or their dexterous parts are too weak and limited.
>>4460003Currently they put corvids in ape tier of intelligence. They will use cars to break nuts open for them and wait the the traffic lights to pick them. This is not some mechanical action guided by instinct. They also use wolves to hunt bigger prey they would be unable to do by themselves and even come up with novel useless actions just for fun https://youtu.be/1WupH8oyrAo
>>4460005Imagine how far they'd have gone with two good hands.
>>4460014Apes all have two good hands and monkeys even have a prehensile tail and are all around the same level. Chimps will sharpen sticks for hunting, crows will craft hooks for pulling bugs from holes and capuchin monkeys will carry bring river stones to a big flat stone so they can break nuts they left drying.
There is exactly one example of a species becoming sapient, so it's really hard to extrapolate. My guess is that it simply won't happen again, ever. It only happened once hundreds of millions of years of complex animal life on Earth. If life exists elsewhere in the galaxy, it looks like it hasn't happened on any of the other worlds either. It's obviously incredibly rare for a species to make the jump from 'smart animals' to 'people'. There's no reason to believe it has to happen again, or at least not for another few hundred million years, by which point everything will be completely unrecognizable anyway, birds could have gone extinct, etc.
Rats on landCorvids in the skyDelphinids in the sea
>>4459977Cracking bones was a prerequisite for hominids to acquire sapience, because it gave them the nutrition required to sustain large brains.
>>4460086It took several billion years for multi-cellular organisms to spawn from single-celled life. It "only" took half a billion years for animals to get to where we are today from virtually nothing. It took 65 million years to go from a mass extinction event to having sapient life, which is nothing in the grand scheme of things.Evolution is an arms race. Some occupy niches with no demand for intelligence, but others are forced to change for the better due to harsh conditions. There's no reason to believe a great filter hasn't already been crossed in spite of humans.
>>4460086There could have been another sapient lifeform in the distant past that left little to no evidence. If we get extinct now and some other intelligent creature start studying the planet they might be puzzled by what the fuck those micro-plastics in the sediment layer were. They could assume the increase of CO2 and other changes were some weird natural event but plastic would be a substance different from any other in the other layers.
>>4459996What would that bird make if it were the size of an ostrich? Or even the size of a crow. >It doesn’t require a special organ or anatomy like bee combsSo what? Bees don't have a perfect hexagon shaped organ. The fact they make all these perfect tiny hexagons is impressive, but they're able to do it because they're tiny, just like how the bird can work with blades of grass because it's tiny. >overestimated human dexterity because he lives in a world modified by humans to suit themNo, the other way around. We evolved into humans because hands suited the world. There used to be just nature. You just keep ignoring that birds have objectively simpler anatomies. They don't have tentacles or trunks instead of hands. They have feet and a mouth. So do we. Flying is useful, but it just makes it faster to get small objects from one place to another.
primates will just evolve from rodents again
>>4459669Feels like orcas are trapped in a local optimum. Why become sentient when you can get all the seal you want without it?
>>4460496>>It doesn’t require a special organ or anatomy like bee combs>So what? Bees don't have a perfect hexagon shaped organI meant I can't ask you to make a bee comb but a human have all the necessary to make a nest. Since hands suit the world feel free to prove me wrong and make the fucking nest already. Or prove me even more and make a bee comb too. Show me the power of your regular human hands with your massive human brain.
>>4460520clearly we need to uplift seals to put pressure on orcas
>>4460555I already countered that argument. The bird is able to work with precision because it's small. A sapient being isn't going to be that small. When larger birds make nests, it's never as sophisticated. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UZM9GpLXepULook at this crow. According to you it could "modify tools to make it suit them", yet this could be done more easily with hands.
>>4460596You can’t make something as intricate with your human hands? Make a bigger nest then so it is on the size you think it is appropriate for human hands.
>>4459861haha birb live in benis
>>4459658literally incapable of evolving arms again after throwing them away for wings, they ain't shit but an evolutionary dead end. eggs are also a hugely retarded reproductive strategy that real life shows will always fuck them over.
>>4459666Raccoons still need to go through the monkey phase to become sapient. And we know they face too little evolutionary pressure to do it.Corvids are doing it because they're social creatures so they're more likely to take that step further.
>>4460502this, to succeed in this planet you need a monke form and brain
>>4459894>Just film while your cat mauls your guinea pig.... They're just having fun! ^^Kill this person and take their pets to a person that can take better care of them.
>>4459658I would argue parrots ate higher than Corvids. They live longer and can manipulate objects with their feet better that crows or ravens
>>4461201>And we know they face too little evolutionary pressure to do it.What made monkeys different?
>>4461204Corvids are domesticating wolves right now before dominating fire. They are doing things in a different sequence from us, who knows what could come from that.
>>4461252>before dominating fire>implying they're going to do that at allDo you even know how difficult it is? Have you ever tried to make fire with rocks? It still baffles me how people ever figured it out.
>>4461263There are bird species that already use fire and humans started using fire before finding out how to make it. Also fire can be created by other means like friction and I can see how they could discover how to make fire accidentally from technologies they would probably develop if they ever start evolving that way.
Nobody has mentioned beavers yet
>>4461297I indirectly alluded to them.>>4459894
>>4459662I wonder if it might be possible for them to eventually discover that weird chemical reaction that allows fire to burn underwater.
>>4461299Now I think about it, rodent mouths are a lot more useful than primate mouths. Maybe they could skip the whole monkey thing, though they'd probably miss the opposable thumbs.
>>4461301can you forge metals underwater with that?
They should stop being such hippie faggots and start building fish traps
>>4461252Ravens do have uncanny visual recognition and a solid symbiotic relationship with wolves. But they're not selectively breeding wolves with favorable tendencies in mind. They're playing with pups and feasting on carrion, even leading them towards prey. I wouldn't invest in CorvidCoin just yet until a raven sharpens a rock or makes a spear, or even develops the potential to do so and becomes at least as large as an emu. All of this is academic until then.
>>4460601how has nobody posted the obvious counter to this?>make a nestOK. pic related. pretend it has a thatch roof if you want to be pedantic. fuck, pretend it was weaved out of grass if it makes you feel better. a basketweaver from a third world country could do that if they needed to. hell, entire buildings are made from wood and thatch in some of those south american tribes.
>>4461687hell, here's a better example.now show me a bird with a written language.
>>4461692captcha ate my pic.
>>4461687>how has nobody posted the obvious counter to this?Because I was getting a bit tired of the discussion. Thanks for continuing it for me. An even better example would be basket weaving, weird how nobody mentioned it despite this being a basket weaving forum. Anyway, vid related is what happens when animals don't have hands
>>4461653My interpretation is that they will co-evolve with wolves like humans did. They won't intentionally selective breed them, at least not initially, ravens will form alliances with the ones who get along better with them increasing their chances of survival leading to a separated breed over the generations. I don't expect any animal to take humans place any time soon even if humans mysteriously disappear. The chain reaction that led to hominids might have been a huge coincidence and then the one that made us into a global civilization another chain of lucky events. The exact conditions to create selective pressures to evolve higher intelligence might be very rare but I do think their relation with wolves might lead to an incentive of greater intelligence since they are social animals adding a different social animal to their social group. Developing better communication and tactics would benefit both and is an incentive for a more complex language and intelligence. I don't think they need to get particularly large. I think their early technology will rely more on wood and rope than sharp stones. Wolves do the killing, the ravens would focus on hindering the prey, A simple lasso tied to a stick would make it much harder for the prey to escape. Just manage to put it on the prey and now when it runs the hook will keep getting stuck on the vegetation and tripping its legs making it easier for the wolves to catch it. Improvement would be to get a branched stick with one side much longer than the other. Tie the rope on the long side and now the short side acts as a hook becoming much better at getting stuck on the vegetation. Use a thorny branch and a shorter rope instead and now the branch will flail when the animal runs causing many wounds, this would make the animal to panic and run until exhaustion leaving a trail of blood to be followed. Could leave them tied on trees and work with the wolves to direct the prey to the location so it will get stuck.
>>4459656None of them.Christ is King.
>>4461687You missed the point. You should make one similar to the one the bird did. You claim to have a superior anatomy for crafting and I'm being generous in assuming you have a much higher intellect than the bird so you should have no problems in replicating the the weaver bird makes. You can check videos explaining how they make, you can read articles detailing the nest structure and you have two hands so it should be a breeze to replicate it even if you need to make it bigger. In other words if you can't replicate what a retard make using only his feet using your entire body either you are a greater retard or you underestimated the retard.
>>4461840You've got a good imagination, but I don't see that happening
>>4461847Umm, sweetie, that would require me to go outside... yikes.
>>4461847Dude the bird is really good at making one thing and one thing only, all by instinct. However with tweezers and a lot of practice I could probably make the same thing, though I'm not not gonna do it just to prove a point. Tweezers are a decent substitute for small bird beaks, but there's no way, even with modern tech, to make a human hand substitute for small birds.
>>4461848As I mentioned, the conditions for that to happen might be extremely rare but if it do happen I think they will develop different hunting techniques from humans. Being able to fly open many possibilities that were unavailable to prehistoric humans so it is silly to think they will develop weapons fit for humans when they can fly over the prey and drop stuff on it or easily set up traps hanging from trees. In our case we would finish the animal and dogs assisted on the hunt tracking and directing the prey, on ravens case they are the ones who track the prey for the wolves but the wolves would be the ones doing the death blow. the ravens lack the strength for it would fill the roles of locating and assisting.
>>4461855The bird learn how to make the nest, they aren't born knowing how to make it and will do shitty nests until they learn how to make it. There are videos detailing how they make it online so you don't need to do trial and error, you just need to see what they did and do the same. You supposedly have a great advantage over them, if they are so bad as you claim you should be able to learn how they do it in a few hours and make the nest in a few more hours. Specially since you don't need to pick grass blades one by one.
It depends on what you mean by sapient. How sapient is sapient?I feel that undersea conditions do not tend themselves towards the level of civilisations humans would have as they are too harsh and pressurised, as well as not being friendly oxygen-wise to mammals. So, for the former, while octopi are intelligent, they are out. For the latter, cetaceans are out.Sapience and intelligence also tends to become higher when animals can eat meat because the proteins lean towards greater brain development. While there are some exceptions to the rule, such as parrots and elephants, that rules them out.Brain efficiency, however, in birds, is nothing to laugh at; their brains are excellently organised, similar to ours.Thus, I think it will be either crows or birds of prey. Birds of prey because their food is nutritious enough and they've developed intelligence, but crows seem more likely because they've passed the mirror test, make friends, remember faces, perform reconnaissance after death (which could very well evolve into grieving) and can use tools and invent them, showing creativity. Plus their food is quite high protein too. All of these behaviours started causing hominins and Neanderthals to evolve sapience, so, who knows, with enough selective pressures, maybe it'll be crows.
>>4461866>Sapience and intelligence also tends to become higher when animals can eat meat because the proteins lean towards greater brain developmentIs that really the reason? Pongos barely eat meat, chimps don't eat that much either. Meanwhile many predators are dumb as a rock. I've always thought that a broader diet forces animals into a wider set of skills, leading to better brains
>>4461876There is the theory that hominid brain capacity increased around the time we ate more protein. But yeah, you're probably right too in that that was a selective pressure too. It is probably both desu, working together in a loop.That other anon is also probably right when he says mammals will just evolve again into monkeys and then hominids and then humans; think about synapsids and therapsida; they're so similar yet so different to dinosaurs, and they eventually evolved into mammals from reptiles, because it seems like the enviornment tends to favour the same traits emerging through divergent and convergent evolution with enough time and the right pressures for intelligence. So desu if somehow humans were to become extinct, apes would probably slowly, over millions of years, discover tools and evolve intelligence again as they're closest to the niche that allows for sapience.
>>4461872Still missing the point. You know what is your problem? You are a disgrace for the human race. What made us what we are today is that for thousands of years humans look at a problem, see what they have available and look for a solution using what they have. You on the other hand lack this skill entirely. You are unable to think by yourself, all you can do is repeat what someone else came up with. You know humans made spears with sharpened stones on top of wooden shafts and that is all you can do. If one of the materials needed to make the spear you know about you will promptly claim it is impossible to hunt because the necessary material is missing. Unless you saw someone else solving a problem you can't even imagine on a solution and will either claim it is impossible or try to use different solutions you already saw in the past even if they don't match the problem.
>>4461883>You should have the skills needed from a pre-industrial civilization in the modern age that has skyrocketed in complexity, or you are a disgraceOk, Kaczynski
>>4461883Lol, this unprovoked schizo rant is too high IQ for me. Have a nice day, lad.
>>4461876Elephants and parrots are pretty intelligent as well and are herbivores. Intelligence evolved primates, elephants and cetaceans who share in common that they are mammals. Birds also evolved intelligence but they share a more distant ancestry so their brain have a very different conformation mammals and birds are amniotes and at least one could claim the common ancestor already have a base for a brain. Now cephalopods managed to be intelligent even compared to amniotes, while far from the top they developed a complex brain independently from vertebrates. In many cases what seems to kick start the development of intelligence is some process that requires a lot of processing, To solve all the processing they need more neurons and then the extra neurons end up being useful for other tasks like problem solving. Having to navigate in a 3D environment, an active camouflage involving the control of many structures and muscles at the same time and maybe even having to control all those tentacles are tasks that require brain power but one interesting thing about octopus is that even vision is a process that requires a lot of processing for them. They lack cone cells like the ones we use to see in color but they have a completely different approach for color vision, their weird pupils create and effect called chromatic aberration, the image is separated in different images of different colors superposed, something that in our photos make a blurry mess. The octopus on the other hand make use of this to interpret what color the objects are, since different colors deviate differently their brain needs to adjust and correct it to make a clear image and use the blurriness to tell what color it is.
>>4461887Dealing with novel situations is one of the most basic human skills.
>>4461914Here's a fun fact too; cephalopods are among the only non-mammalian and indeed invertebrate animals that can accommodate - that is, through convergent evolution - their eyes have evolved to focus on tasks at near. So, if an octopus suddenly through some magic got our intelligence, it would have eyes capable of reading.
Meerkats or mongooses. They have complex social structures, rudimentary speech, are pretty smart. They don't use tools, but they already assume a bipedal posture frequently. All they'd need is some evolutionary pressure to develop grabby hands, perhaps by being made to colonize trees. Their close relatives, civets, already have grabby hands for exactly that reason.It is easier for me to imagine that happening, than raccoons evolving into a social species.
>>4461933I wonder why lions became a social species when all the others tend to be loners. It seems like some prehistoric felines were social as well, maybe it is just that megafauna mostly died out resulting in the extinction of social large predators as well.
You're all wrong. There's never been a species that developed humanoid intelligence before us and there might not be one after us. Similar to the way there's never been anything approaching the size of the largest dinosaurs. Our brains are the new dinosaurs: a total fluke.There is no evidence that any other animal will select for a similar intelligence because evolution is not intelligent or guided or stampeding towards humanity, we are not evolution's final destination, we are just one type of freak among many. Would it help animals to be as smart as us? Yes. Would it help animals to be as big as the dinosaurs? Yes. That doesn't mean it will spontaneously develop. Once mankind is gone there's a pretty high chance that there will never be another civilization on the planet.
>>4461925I wish I had the time to write a story about cephalopods evolving to live on land and eventually forming a civilization. Maybe even have a different aquatic species who only have access to metals through trading with the land ones.
>>4461933I don't think bipedalism is that important. Monkey ancestors were better tool users way before becoming bipedal. Social behaviour seems to evolve pretty easily, simply by a large number of animals sharing territory. Raccoons will then be smart enough to figure out hunting methods involving groups. I'll stick with the theory of omnivorous beavers making fish traps.
>>4461937>You are all wrong>Proceed to say what a bunch of anons already saidThere is a remote chance that not only a human level intelligent species existed in the past undetected by us but also that it reached industrial level. Probably civilizations are extremely rare, Even humans only started forming civilizations in the last thousands of years, despite existing for much longer than that. We could have gone extinct due to some cataclysm and the Earth would continue without any civilization for millions of years. I think it is unlikely that chimps would develop a civilization. We evolved from a common ancestor but they didn't follow the same path as us. Selective pressures didn't push them the same way they pushed us and there is no reason to think it would suddenly change any time soon. That said I think it is an interesting mental exercise to imagine how a different animal could follow a similar path if the pressures are right.
>>4461956>We evolved from a common ancestor but they didn't follow the same path as us. Selective pressures didn't push them the same way they pushed us and there is no reason to think it would suddenly change any time soon. This was because there was a split between climbing apes and "land apes". All the grass lands became occupied by proto-humans and then by humans. If we go extinct, it will open up opportunities again.
>>4461917Anthropomorphically speaking, spear crafting and basket weaving are not novel. What's novel is drawing diagrams of spears and writing formulas for the ideal curvature of a basket.
>>4461963A lot of proto-humans went extinct and humans didn't took over the world until much later. I think they are adapted to live on trees and moving to open terrain would make them vulnerable to predators. They don't have a reason to move there. If the forest start dying out they might get an "adapt or die"
>>4461972>A lot of proto-humans went extinctThanks to competition. Neanderthals went the way of the dodo just as we entered Eurasia, and there's also some evidence of Denisovans getting absorbed.
>>4461970My whole point is that he only post things that already were made. If something changes humans adapted. Stones good for spears are rare in this area? People made spears using different materials. Just because you don't have the ingredients to make the one model you already know doesn't means that you can't make a different model using different ingredients. Humans cut large stones using copper tools and moved objects weighing several tons and idiots claimed it was impossible and it must have been ancient aliens because these people limit the possibilities to what they know and since they don't know any way to move large objects without heavy machinery they assume it is the only way to do things. They don't stop to think what they had available and how they could solve the problem with what they had.
>>4461981Hominids went extinct left and right way before homo sapiens was a thing. Also fuck why is everything avif now?
>>4461985>Stones good for spears are rare in this area? People made spears using different materials.Yeah. Wood. Damn, I'm adaptable. >My whole point is that he only post things that already were madeWhat's that point in service of? Whatever it is, it hardly even correct. Crafting is mostly learned and passed on between generations, with an occasional invention happening. After the discovery of fire it took hundreds of thousands of years to invent the wheel.
>>4461988Competition from each other. Look at how many of them existed alongside each other at the same time.
>>4460520Orcas are definitely sentient
a fish is "sentient". sapience is something else. don't get it twisted
A crow has never decided one day that it is anything but a crow. They react to and live in the world with some pretty clever tricks but they don’t fight against its ways and remake it. Say they’re intelligent when they work together to make something, moreso if they must work together to use it. Have you ever seen dolphins work together to untangle their friend from a net? I haven’t.
>>4461985And my point is that innovations don't happen in the handcrafting department in this day and age.Most people can't make a giant bird-like nest, not because they are stupid, but because they have moved on to more abstracted occupations. I use my own hands to write computer programs, for instance. This shift in skillset is exactly what reflects an increase in IQ.https://youtu.be/9vpqilhW9uI>>4461988>Also fuck why is everything avif now?Because Google killed JPEG XL. At least it's not WebP.
>>4462237orcas are the only ones to do anything like that (working together to keep weak/sick individuals above water so they can breathe). even apes don’t care for each other like that.
>>4461876>>4461878>>4461914Research has shown that in fact omnivores have on average the highest intelligence. This makes sense as it would require more brain power to subsist off a wide variety of food rather than a small variety. Next highest on average was frugivores, this also makes sense as fruit ripens at certain times of the year and you have to be able to differentiate unripened, ripened and over overripened fruit.
none. Malice is usually regarded as a uniquely human trait this is not entirely true. While 99% of the animal kingdom does not exhibit malice plenty of primates show eachother negative emotions for no reason whatsoever. Malice is the seed of intelligence and imagination. Primates hate eachother so much they started imagining doing horrible things to eachother. Chimps have been observed stealthily walking single file with their heads low to initiate a violent ambush attack using sharpened sticks as weapons. All of this because a chimp hated another chimp so much he “imagined” a plan to use guerilla warfare to attack him. Furthermore chimpanzees will rip off an opponents testicles hold them to the sky and let out a cry in which the rest of the chimps join in on the cry. This is literally symbolic thought. For all the credit we give crows for intelligence for they dont do this, every action is an action that in their mind brings them closer to food. Lifting up testicles to the sky doesnt bring you closer to food. If you have the mental capacity to seemingly have all if these negative emotions for seemingly no reason then the evolutionary path to have other emotions for seemingly no reason is laid out. Sapience does not provide an immediate advantage in survival. In fact sapience may even hinder a species’ ability to reproduce. Sapience doesnt fit in evolution sapience is a glitch of life itself. I truly believe that after all the primates are extinct that sapience will go along with them for good. And sapience will never occur again for all eternity.Inb4“Its just chance the trait can evolve again”This statement is only true when referring to traits that grant an immediate benefit. If your species is going crazy mindlessly eating and reproducing then being more “thoughtful” is only going to hold you back spreading your genes preventing sapience from taking hold in a species population.
>>4459658what if corvids did shrooms
>>4462344How exactly using a plastic disk to slide on the snow bring the crow closer to food? https://youtu.be/1WupH8oyrAoThey also like to pull tails to piss off other animals, cats, dogs, rats, other birds, etc
>>4462344Tons of animals fuck with other animals just for fun, and some of them come up with creative ways to do it.Anyways, top traits for developing intelligence are probably>social behavior>dexterous limbs for tool use/crafting>high starting intelligence>not living underwater (too harmful to tool use)
A good way to imagine societies from different animals is to see how people with disabilities manage to do things and use that as inspiration.
Anatomy is clearly more important than intelligence. Ape language is below the level of birds, yet in a few million years we had evolved it way beyond bird speech. Meanwhile birds have been stuck with the same body plan ever since they existed.
>>4459658only if they develop hands with fingers and internal gestation
>>4462983Are you implying they are smarter than us but our superior anatomy allowed us to build a civilization? Because I see it the other way around, our superior intelligence allowed us to overcome our disadvantages. Our superior intelligence allowed us to move heavier objects and manipulate smaller objects that would be possible with our anatomy alone. A human born without arms still can write, program and make a cake, a chimp with both arms and legs can't do any of that.
>>4463130I guess primate hands, naturally allowing more freedom of movement and precision, require more brain power to be controlled, they're a high intelligence starting point
>>4463142Other animals have primate-like hands but aren't even close to primates intelligence. I hear more often that navigating on trees is the intelligence demanding task, not the hands. For cetaceans it is the echolocation the intelligence demanding task.
>>4463130I'm saying that our intelligence evolved in a short time frame to take advantage of the possibilities of our bodies. If a chimp without arms was able to survive in the wild, it wouldn't evolve into a human without arms, it would become some sort of kangaroo. Our brains aren't as efficient as bird brains, but it's not a bottleneck as our large energy slurping brains work well enough.
>>4463142The human hand have 30 muscles. 30 actuators for the brain to control. Even if you count both hands and arms it still pales compared to the 40 000 muscles in the elephant trunk. That is something much more taxing for the brain. Octopus have a brain for each tentacle.>>4463163Other animals with different bodies developed intelligence, and it was not because they had an ape body. We have only one example who formed civilizations so we can’t tell if this is the norm or the exception, we can look at the family as a whole since apes in general tend to be smarter than the rest of the primates and primates tend to be smarter than the average mammal and the same happened in different groups with the most varied bodies. Maybe on an alternate timeline some kind of elephant became super smart and built civilizations and they claim that only animals with a well developed trunk could get so smart because of how good trunks are for manipulating their tools and how the complexity of the trunk demanded a bigger brain.
>>4461687because not everyone here is looking for a argumentative joust like you are redditkun(go back)
>>4463181>only animals with a well developed trunk could get so smart because of how good trunks are for manipulating their tools and how the complexity of the trunk demanded a bigger brain.Trunks would have to get a lot better developed to do things like craft and throw spears/start fires.
>>4463181>Other animals with different bodies developed intelligence, and it was not because they had an ape body. We have only one example who formed civilizationsThat just kinda proves my point. The anatomies were the bottleneck of other animals. They evolved a high level of intelligence but reached an evolutionary dead end. The fact you used elephants as an example is because their trunks resemble hands somewhat. You wouldn't have used orcas as an example, even though they are arguably more intelligent. Anyway, elephants did not end up building a civilization. This could have different reasons, but their most obvious disadvantage is that they only have one trunk whereas we have two hands.
>>4463220>only have one trunk whereas we have two handshalf of them have a trunk and a prehensile penis
>>4462344>All of this because a chimp hated another chimp so much he “imagined” a plan to use guerilla warfare to attack himSurely you mean "gorilla warfare"
>>4462449He's standing on it trying to tear off pieces to eat. The sliding is a side effect.
Post more smart animals.
>>4460594Seals are a bit stupid for uplifting. A simpler way is to seed killer robot seals in orca hunting grounds, to encourage them to be more observant and to provide a stimulating challenge.
>>4463196Why would they use spears? They are fucking elephants, they need tools that improve on their body functions for purposes they need and for elephants would be agriculture, not spears.>>4463220Not at all, you are taking one example and using it as an universal rule when it could have been just luck. If we had a human-like dinosaur civilization then your argument would make more sense but the fact that other animals didn't develop civilization doesn't prove that they can't the same way that for a long time there were no terrestrial vertebrates, one could make an argument like yours that only invertebrates can live on land and the fact that only invertebrates exist on land prove your point but here we are hundreds of millions of years later and we have plenty of terrestrial vertebrates.
>>4464856>for elephants would be agriculture, not spears.Fine, they can't make plows either.
>>4464856If you take that reasoning to an extreme you could say "but what if in an alternate universe jellyfish made a civilization?" You just have to look at the information at hand, pun intended. When you look at anatomies you can just analyze the pros and cons for tool use. My point isn't even that hands are the only way, it's just the quickest possible path to sapience. A brain can triple in capacity in a relatively short timeframe. In the same timeframe an animal won't grow new body parts.
>>4464857They would probably attach stuff to attach to their foot/tusks because these are the body parts they use for stuff that require strength. If an animal is capable of crafting tools with the current anatomy, with greater intelligence they can craft tools to help craft tools so they can make better tools and so on.
>>4464884This is pickle rick logichttps://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1pLdgLheokUYou can't just skip a million years of ooga booga and go straight to advanced tool use. >If an animal is capable of crafting tools with the current anatomyYeah but they aren't
>>4464881>"but what if in an alternate universe jellyfish made a civilization?"Sounds interesting. Apparently cnidarians and us evolved from a common ancestor with bilateral symmetry and the radial symmetry evolved later like with echinoderms. Will probably get either an hydra, a sea anemone or a inverted jellyfish as starting point and advance it to different niches all the way to civilization.
>>4464887>>If an animal is capable of crafting tools with the current anatomy>Yeah but they aren'tThey have documented cases of tool usage, crafting, improving, etc. Feel free to publish your own articles contesting their claims.
>>4464896Fine, by the official definition they can. How are they going to make better tools with those tools?
>>4464916Corvid case they already drop mussels to break their shells, if they get smarter I can see them realizing that they can use the broken shell to cut stuff. Having a cutting tool they could use it to make better probes/hooks, make it easier to cut fibers to make string/rope, etc.An interesting fact is that capuchin monkey produces stone shards identical to primitive stone tools except they make those as subproduct of their stone smashing habits. Apparently they break stones to get minerals and still didn't realized that they could be using the shards as tools as well. Maybe humans started that way too using stones to crush stuff and accidentally producing stone shards until someone realize they can use the shards as well.
>>4459656I wanna believe it'd be cephalopods but with their lifespan that ain't gonna happen. Probably will be corvids or parrots since dolphins and orcas will have to deal with the fucked-up empty oceans we leave them
>>4459669very beautiful perspective, thanks for sharing
>>4465058I would reckon ocean dwelling intelligences are NGMI because the ocean is corrosive enough to deter any long-term toolmaking, construction, or record keeping.
>>4465094I mean the evolutionary track of whales goes water-->land-->water. they could evolve back onto land again. Some orca already practice that shore hunting tactic for catching sea lions
>>4459656>OctopusFemales kill themselves during birth and are prone to committing suicide when upset by ripping them selves apart>DolphinsToo busy raping to care>BirdsThere feet are pretty good but they can't bend like hands can. They also only emulate speech and don't truly understand it. They hear there owner yell "Fuck" when mad so they yell "fuck" when mad but they don't understand what fuck means. >DogsI think they have the best shot because how much humans and domestic dogs have evolved together. They understand speech to a certain. Degree and can communicate through barking already. The hands and no thumbs are a big issue but I think maybe the dew claw can work itself out.
>>4465127>Too busy raping to careJust like humans?
>>4465135Humans at least raped other humans. If it exists a dolphin will stick their dick it.
I wonder if beavers will evolve opposable pinkies
the animal needs large group dynamics, a solid life-span that doesnt severely impact reproductive rate and an appendage that can manipulate toolselephants are closest overall but their trunk would have to become a lot more dexterous (which isn't that far fetched a trait to be selected over time, given how much dexterity they exhibit as-is)a more energy efficient form would follow tool use over time, as it did with humansElephants are really the only species I can see making it in within a million yearsafter Elephants I'd put money on one of bears, seals or mustelids to get there eventually, in like, a couple million years
>>4462344https://youtu.be/IPiyo332GksDon’t forget the lion who literally hunts and kills Hyenas.
>>4465138>Said the species carrying dna from two other species
>>4465478I think none are likely but elephants, monkeys and corvids have better chances. Ravens can live to 40-50 in captivity, that is more than the 35 of capuchin monkeys in captivity and close to chimps who usually live less than 15 but can reach 60. Monkeys and corvids might develop longevity if their group dynamics start benefiting having older individuals, elephants already do that. I think a bigger issue with being underwater is that it is absurdly harder to develop metallurgy for an aquatic organism. I think it could be doable to have a complex society underwater but they would need to advance a lot while still being stuck on stone tools to start experimenting with fire outside water. That is very unlikely when becoming intelligent already is very unlikely and forming a civilization also is very unlikely so while not impossible I think the universe would have very few species like that. I would expect from an intelligent species building underwater cities to even start experimenting with fire on land.
>>4465564>I think a bigger issue with being underwater is that it is absurdly harder to develop metallurgy for an aquatic organism. I think it could be doable to have a complex society underwater but they would need to advance a lot while still being stuck on stone tools to start experimenting with fire outside water.Not just metallurgy and fire>Wooden toolsrots/floats away>fibres/textilesrots/floats away>masonry/cobbleerodes>writingwashed away
>>4465569Water cancel parts of the weight of stuff so they probably would use shells, rocks and skeletons more and wood can take a long time to rot underwater. It require a pot of oxygen to degrade wood, this is why a wooden ship can stay recognizable for centuries deep underwater but the moment they bring it to the surface it starts rotting. Building houses should be doable. For an animal like the octopus their current shelter building involves finding a crevice and putting some rocks/shells blocking the entrance or just finding a suitable container like a shell, bottle or coconut shells. The next step would be either piling rocks, digging sand or carving rocks/coral to make a more customized crevice. Eventually they might start promoting coral and calcareous algae growth to cement the pieces together allowing the formation of large colonies over time. Other building materials include sea sponges, kelp and other seaweed (light, easy to cover large surfaces and cammouflage) and sea urchins, sea anemones, etc (defense against predators) if they manage to cultivate other mollusks they might let a few grow big to produce bigger shells to use in construction. Maybe killing and eating the small/slow growers could cause a selective breeding resulting in a big fast growing shellfish they would use for food and building material. Pen shells can grow up to a meter long and while their shells have a good size they aren’t very strong but they produce a strong and durable fiber to attach themselves to surfaces. These fibers can be spun into what is called sea silk, it get a beautiful golden color that doesn’t fades when treated with lemon juice but this is probably not why an aquatic animal would use it. Weaving with it would gives them a strong and light material for protection.
>>4465127>prone to committing suicide when upset by ripping them selves apartBased as fuck
>>4464884If animals can just circumvent the limitations of their bodies through intelligent tool use, was our evolutionary history of sacrificing strength in favor of precision just pointless?
>>4460115How many bones you cracked today?
>>4460115>Spears allow regular sized humans to hunt megafauna>no it was the BONE MARROW that allowed us to get intelligent
>>4465841Yes. We evolved carrion picking and bone cracking first. It’s why our stomach acid can be as strong as 1.5ph. And it’s likely gotten weaker over the centuries. Stone age man didn’t eat a ton of megafauna either. He mostly ate fish.
>>4465866>He mostly ate fish.That's interesting. It strengthens my beavers making fish traps theory
>>4465841>>Spears allow regular sized humans to hunt megafaunaDid they, though? Elephants remain in Africa, yet mammoths went extinct shortly after the first Homo Sapiens was born in Eurasia.
>>4459909We are literally using a Mongolian basket weaving forum to interact. How could you actually forget about basket weaving? What's that if not making a nest of reeds?
>>4461352>>4461301you could theoretically still have agriculture underwater without fire but you'll have to make do without metallurgy or even pottery. still with agriculture you'll get sedentarism and social stratification and labour specialization so something resembling civilization
>>4465812One thing is to have more precision, the other is claiming that only one specific anatomy in the universe is adequate for tool making. An elephant, crow or octopus don't need to grow human hands to be able to make and use tools and make tools to improve said tools. We are not equipped to manipulate tiny objects, push large boulders, fly, etc but we achieved that by the clever use of tools. So a crow for example could craft a crude tool to attach to its beak to use for different tasks like we use pincers, knifes, etc. It could make some kind of chair so it can have both feet free while working. Certain tasks would require more complex tools to achieve the same we do with simpler ones while others would require simpler tools. By becoming an animal that use a lot of tools to overcome its limitations precision would be a trait that will be selected over brute strength since the populations with better tools would do better than the ones with poorer tools but stronger bodies.
>>4466331The point is not that humans can't weave, the point is countering the claim that human hands are the only ones capable of doing complex shit. If human hands are superior in every way to any other anatomy in the universe it a human with two working human hands, a huge human brain much more powerful than that bird brain and access to all the knowledge of the internet would be able to replicate the exact nest done by that bird species with ease and even do it faster than the bird who have to pick and manipulate grass glades one by one.
>>4461939Just read the fluff from the manuals of the Master of Orion games. The first two are top tier 4X games older than most of the people posting on this site, the third did not live up to the hype. But all the alien species you can play have innate racial bonuses and handicaps, but they are genuinely thoughtful about giving them some kind of grounded explanation. Like the silicon based rock guys (negative bonus from advanced industry) can live on any planet, and eat rocks so they don't have to farm, or worry about pollution, but they're such a weird alien race they can't engage in diplomacy because there's no common ground with rock monsters.
>>4466676Not really a good argument since nest building isn't something the bird learns, its instinct, predicated by however many thousands of thousands of years of biological imperative of nest building in various environments. There are plenty of processes refined by the brute force process of evolution that we can understand, but not replicate with the same efficiency using technology that can't be more than a few thousand years old. A lot of a birds brain is tied up in instinct like nest building and birdsong. Clearing out that pre-loaded software is part of what makes humans successful generalists. We may not be able to do one thing as well as an animal, but we can do a little bit of everything well enough that you don't need to build a house from twigs straw and spit because you can use mud brick and clay shingles.
>>4465812Evolution doesn't pick the most overall efficient morphology, only the form that is the most immediately useful, and allows an organism to survive the greatest degree at the moment. The idea that the humanoid form is the most efficient in any case but our own very specific set of circumstances is simple ignorance at best and human chauvinism at worst.
>>4466873University scientists filmed male Southern Masked Weaver birds, in Botswana, building multiple nests out of grass during a breeding season.Their findings contrast with the commonly held assumption among scientists that nest-building is an innate ability.The researchers found that individual birds changed their technique from one nest to the next.They also saw that some birds build their nests from left to right, and others from right to left.Also, as the birds gained more experience in building nests, they dropped blades of grass less often.This implies that the art of nest building requires learning and may help to explain how birds approach nest-building.The study was carried out by the Universities of Edinburgh, St Andrews and Glasgow together with scientists from Botswana. If birds built their nests according to a genetic template, you would expect all birds to build their nests the same way each time. However this was not the case. Southern Masked Weaver birds displayed strong variations in their approach, revealing a clear role for experience. Even for birds, practice makes perfect. Dr Patrick WalshSchool of Biological Sciences
>>4466664>>4466676>the other is claiming that only one specific anatomy in the universe is adequate for tool makingThat's a strawman. The real argument is that beaks and trunks are crap, and overcoming the limitations is a fantasy. Tentacles could be good but being a sea creature is its own massive limitation. >We are not equipped to manipulate tiny objects, push large boulders, fly, etc but we achieved that by the clever use of toolsTools made with hands. We're arguably better at lifting boulders with our bare hands than elephants, while almost approaching the precision of a weaving bird and surpassing that of crows. A bird is unlikely to increase in size and precision at the same time. >So a crow for example could craft a crude tool to attach to its beak to use for different tasks like we use pincers, knifes>attach to its beak There you already have an issue. Humans never had to attach anything to their hands. You can just hold a thing in one hand and another hand left, all while being able to look at what you're doing. Human evolution was a huge uphill battle that took millions of years, including long periods of stagnation. If conditions aren't ideal, things are just not going to happen. Shitty cost/benefit prevents any progress. Nature is harsh, you need huge excesses of time and energy to invent stuff. With our current standard of living we can think of things like beak attachments and wheelchairs but in the past we made simple and effective things. The process of making tools to craft better tools only happens after mastering basic tool making in the first place. It took 3.7 billion years for sapience to happen since the first life form. The evolution of intelligence started way before hands, yet the exponential growth of our brains happened after the fact in a small fraction of 3.7 billion years.
>>4459747That’s exactly the thing. We don’t have talons or claws, and thus we have to creatively use tools and work together to acquire food. If your body plan already lets you acquire all the food you need, there’s no pressure to become smarter.
>>4466960necessity isn't the mother of inventionlaziness is
>>4466905I don't see how that counters my argument. My point is that intelligence doesn't negate the importance of body morphology, the opposite is the case. In order to invent tools to increase our precision, we needed more precise hands in the first place. Our morphology and intelligence evolved hand in hand, pun intended. >The idea that the humanoid form is the most efficient in any case but our own very specific set of circumstances I never said that. I do say however that birds will never reach a comparable set of circumstances because they're at an evolutionary dead end.
>>4466962Homo Erectus spent almost 3 million years in the Stone Age because the shitty flint tools they had worked well enough. When things are going well, evolution pretty much stalls out. If humans went extinct, corvids would spend ten million years in the Stone Age, because they would have no reason to progress their tool-making beyond simple hooks.
>>4467300>Homo Erectus spent almost 3 million years in the Stone Age because the shitty flint tools they had worked well enough.you don't know that and nobody believes it> If humans went extinct, corvids would spend ten million years in the Stone Age, you also don't know that, and nobody believes it.where do you come up with these completely fabricated views that are impossible to test, don't make any sense, and run contrary to all evidence?
>>4467300Homo erectus spent almost 3 million years in the Stone Age because because there was no obvious path to progress. You could call bow and arrow a simple invention in hindsight, but it's actually really far fetched and difficult to make.Times of scarcity aren't the time to try a bunch of weird experiments. Times of comfort and excess are when inventions happen, as proven by the last 500 years. If necessity was the mother of invention, Africans would invent a shitload of stuff.
>>4467310>you don't know that and nobody believes itWe have tools made by those guys dated to like 3mya, and tools dated to 800mya. In all that time, pretty much nothing changed about those tools
>>4467373This is quickly devolving into a Reddit tier argument. I think I know a lot more about evolution that you do, so is it cool if we can call each other retarded and bid each other farewell?
>>4467468It was a reddit tier argument all along. I haven't been this petty in a long time, and in a long time I haven't been so convinced I'm right. Farewell fellow reddit-tier retard.
>>4467466>In all that time, pretty much nothing changed about those toolsthat doesn't mean they could've advanced and didn't because things were good.It just means they couldn't advance.
>>4465564oh I dont think seals would ever develop a society while remaining primarily an aquatic species, I just could see them deciding "actually y'know what lets move back on to land" in the next warm period when great white sharks or orcas begin to truly dominate the oceans againdolphins will never develop a technological society for the reasons you've outlined
>>4467468>>4467473least polite anons on 4chan
>>4467373Homo erectus spent almost 3 million years in the Stone Age because of the megafauna predators that died off during the holocene glacial period/extinction eventIt's hard to build a forge when the clap of your anvil keeps alerting the truck sized cats
>>4459669>since they use sonar, they can send and receive 3d pictures or mental dioramasThey would just spend all their time spamming 3D dick pics to lady whales.
>>4467373>If necessity was the mother of invention, Africans would invent a shitload of stuff.Why? It wasn't necessary.
>>4467894Solving hunger and aids aren't necessary for them?
>>4467915It wasn't until slave trading happened.
how would a bird or a dolphin eventually build a gun that they could use as easily as humans use our guns
my rat atman