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>Delivery edition
cont. from >>4343877

This thread is dedicated to all animals of the reptilia and amphibia classes. Topics include, but are not limited to: geckos, snakes of all kinds, frogs, salamanders, newts, turtles, tortoises, and much more. Before asking a question, do a search on the internet to see if it has been answered
Classifieds for finding breeders and products:
>morphmarket.com
>kingsnake.com
>faunaclassifieds.com
>reptilescanada.com (Canadian breeders)
>caudata.org
Most forums will have a "for sale" section on them, so look for that, especially if you have a specific herp you want. Craigslist can also be a good source for cheap aquariums, and make sure to check for any reptile expos that occur in your area.

When asking a question, make sure to include these details:
>Type and size of animal
>Enclosure dimensions
>Humidity and temperature
>Type of substrate
>The decor you use
>How often you feed
>The type of food you use
>If your animal is wild caught or captive bred
>How often you handle
>Who you bought the animal from

Other Helpful Resources
www.blackjungleterrariumsupply.com
www.joshsfrogs.com
http://www.reptilesmagazine.com
http://www.anapsid.org
http://www.hylid.clara.co.uk/caer.htm
https://www.americanmadeexotics.com/breeding-ball-pythons-article.html
http://blogs.thatpetplace.com/thatreptileblog/
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>>4355050
god I want a newt so bad bros...
just scared of brumation as I've never had any animal that does it
>>
>A-Anon-San?
>>
Having an enclosure with a Caiman lizard, Mata Mata turtle and two or three Giant Pacu would be so fucking dope. Put some Dragon Fruit trees in their for decoration and you're fucking golden. Too bad it'd need to be like a 12x8x8 with a literal pond in it
>>
bp scarfs down large mice then looks at me like wassup, got more? gonna give her a fuzzy rat now. same size 20g same color (1488 bros) but...it's a rat. I'm sure she'll take it if it's hot. then I'm off the PetSmart. way too expensive. either going RodentPro or buying big freshly killed singles at the herp shop
>>
>>4355335
DONT, Snakes will eat till there sick, When you feed a snake it's brain activates and it thinks that you might have caught more snakes for it to eat. In the wild when a snake finds one mouse it will look for more because it wants to eat as much as it can now because it doesnt know when it can eat again.
Your Ball python is fine and you'll feel worse and waste money when she barfs everywhere.
>>
>>4355343
these food items are undersized, she needs a big honkin rat but I want her to eat *a* rat before I risk wasting $10 on an adult
>>
>>4355059
saucy bitch
>>
aaaaaaaaand she took her first rat in about 0.01 nanoseconds

it's about heat, people

I really suspect bp's reputation as picky eaters is due to people expecting pythons to eat lukewarm prey based on smell

they have heat vision, folx! they're not corn snakes!
>>
Gave my Corn Snakes some extra hides tonight. Feels good man.
>>
>>4355452
>Hate corn snake's because the name is stupid the snake doesn't even look like corn
>Hate milk snake's because it's black,red and yellow not white
I'm autistic I know
>>
If you have a LARGE enclosure, is it possible to cohab a small turtle with a boa?
>>
>>4355640
They might never use the same portions of the enclosure and nothing bad will happen, or you could end up with two dead animals. I think the former is more likely, but I think the boa getting injured by the turtle, accidentally, is the most likely outcome.
>>
>>4355651
Is there anything you could cohab a boa with? Some kind of mudfish you keep in a pool area?
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>>4355532
the bellies look like corn
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I love frogs so much bros
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>>4355785
10/10 pic
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>>4355792
thanks anon
I dont have frogs, I've barely even seen one irl but I love them so much
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>>4355796
idk if I want amphibians, they seem too fragile. if I could do it again I'd want to go all snakes. lizards are a lot of work
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>>4355895
just get a fat fucking toad, nothing fragile about that
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>>4355898
how are they so squishy
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>>4355903
made for human hands
>>
How do I obtain a saltwater crocodile
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>>4355928
I see no problem with your plan other than they're Australian
>>
Guides for how people build the backgrounds (ledges, rock faces, verticality) for bioactive enclosures? Why is there like no concise information
>>
>>4355034
overfed snek
>>
>>4355532
Milk snakes are called milk snakes because they were often found in barns with cows (eating the mice in the barn) and farmers, being retarded, thought the snakes were sneaking into the barn to steal milk from the cows.
I have no idea why they thought this, seeing as how snakes dont drink milk and even lack the ability to pull a vacuum in their mouthh so they even if they did they couldnt suckle from a cow, but maybe someone found one latched to an udder or something because milk snakes are HONGRY BOIS and they could fit an udder into their faces.
>>
>>4355962
>warm
>moves
>right size
I could see a snake striking an udder
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>>4355966
If the cow shifts around they even wiggle a bit
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>>4355947
Backgrounds arent necessary for a bioactive enclosure, thats why. Its mostly just for decoration and/or maybe some manner of functionality for climbing/planting/waterfalls if youre being ambitious.
Standard practice from what Ive seen is aa follows:
>some manner of foam, expanding gap filler foam, XPS sheeting, etc, maybe with some other shit embedded in it (cork flats, pots for planters, etc)
>sculpt however you feel like doing so
>sealed to protect from moisture in some manner, drylok for rocky texture, silicone and coco coir for more dirt-like appearance (if you go this route use WAY more than you think you need and make sure it is completely dry)
The rest is pretty much just how you want it to look. Look for some terrarium builds on youtube and you'll get a better idea of what I mean.
>>
>>4355987
To clarify, make sure the coco coir is completely dry, as water cures the silicone on contact so wet coir wont stick. You're gonna have bare patches, too, so prepare to do a few layers. I actually blend dry coir and silicone into a concrete-like mixture to make hides (pic related), and Ive found thats really the only way to make that method not look like shit, but if you do a background like that youre gonna need a LOT of silicone and a LOT of coir, and its gonna be a sticky fucking mess unless you use some manner of trowel or spatula to spread it out.
>>
>>4355947
Watch these
https://youtu.be/6nczOaFJgVc
https://youtu.be/oUy6StZssFs
>>
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I come home to see this guy enjoying the winter sun
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>>4355947
spray foam, place rocks/fossils/plant cups, cover with grout/colored grout >>4356089
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>>4355947
Look up Beaches Scaly Beasts on YouTube. He has the best tutorial IMO, though his products have different names if you don’t live in upside down land, so you’ve gotta know your way around the hardware store to figure out what you should buy.
>>
>>4355898
Sonoran desert toad? I want one so bad
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I want a scrub python so damn bad bros
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>>4356258
in my area
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>>4356272
What the fuck is wrong with it's face
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>>4355895
I only have snakes and lizards seem like both way more work and way more money to feed a varied omnivore diet daily. Also a lot scarier to get bitten by. I’m really smitten with geckos though and maybe one day I’ll cave and by one of the arboreal ones.
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>>4355058
a lot of newts don't really brumate.

t. marbled newt owner
>>
>>4355895
>kind of want a beardie
>kind of want a leopard gecko
>will need to culture ze boogs one way or the other, but the idea of playing "will the beardie eat this vegetable" sounds fun
>but I would need to either build or buy a 6x2x2 and a leopard gecko could spend its whole life in the extra 36x18x18 I already have
>smol hairless cat-lizard vs big spiny boi
I DONT KNOW WHAT TO DOOOO
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froge
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>>4356379
Get a leopard gecko first, give it a month or two and if you still want a bearded get one.
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>>4356379
Get the leopard gecko. Easy.
>Cuter
>Smaller enclosure
>No hot basking spot, just a warm end
>No UVB
>no veggie feeding
>eat less
>cute little non-stinky poops in the same place every time
it's obvious. beardies kind of suck. but leos are godly. save up and get a super/giant in a crazy color
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>>4356407
it's one or the other, I don't want both.
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>>4356419
dont especially care for color/morph shit, really, and leopard geckos coloration changes as the get older, so its coloration when I get it is kind of irrelevant. I'm leaning more heavily into the leopard gecko end, but I'm not planning on doing anything for at least a year if that, so I have plenty of time to decide.
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>>4356272
I need it
>>4356306
They’re just like that I guess
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>>4356419
>beardies kind of suck
Or at least the inbred frog faced pet beardies suck. If only barbata were available
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>>4356379
>>but I would need to either build or buy a 6x2x2

I’ve never heard of anyone keeping Beardies in anything bigger than 4x2x2. You do you though Fren. Bigger doesn’t hurt.
>>
>>4356473
I have seen some BIG BOIS as of late when it comes to beardies, as in "easily 18 inches SVL" big, and I couldnt countenance putting anything that got even potentially that big in a 4x2. And either way Id need to buy or build that as well.
>>4356322
Oh yeah, gargoyle geckos are also in the running, but the odd are weighted kinda heavily against them.
> + CUTE! Like little dragon babies
> + Easy care - low heat, they eat the reptile equivalent of onions and maybe the odd bug or bit of overripe fruit as a treat
> + existing 40 gallon is more than sufficient for their whole life
> - but it would fair far better in a vertical enclosure, since they're pretty arboreal critters
> - and maintaining anything over like 30% humidity in my enclosures is a constant issue for me year round unless its actively pouring rain outside
> - and Ive got two VERY curious cats and New Caledonian geckos have a tendency to have their tails explode off of their body if they so much as hear a loud noise so I'd basically be looking at an inevitable autotomy incident
> - and they're considerably more expensive than either of the other two contenders
> - and I imagine Powdered Reptile Food Paste is probably more expensive than ze boogz regardless of brand
>>
>>4356553
>onions
Fucking autoreplace. You know what i mean, the powdered meal replacement that effete manchildren drink.
>>
My adult leopard gecko typically eats a single superworm and produces a similarly sized turd later that night. He's 9" long with a fat tail so I could starve him if I wanted. But he's just not that hongry. These are such economical lizards.
>>
Is there any reason to be concerned that my crested gecko has been acting more aggressive? She's biting leaves and my finger when I put it near her, which up until now she's just looked away when I got close. She's (pretty sure she's a she) is about 9-10 months old. The only change I've made recently is switching from paper towel to coconut fiber substrate.
>>
>Ball python barely fits into his hide, when he is in he lifts it up a bit and when he decides to look out from it he looks like a turtle
>give him the exact same hide but a bit larger and placed in the same spot he wont go in.
BRO!
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>>4356323
All the cheap ones that can be fully aquatic seem too from reseach :(
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>>4356895
Maybe she had her egg period thing?
>>
my savannah monitor is pretty big and we're still 5 weeks from the winter solstice. I think I will starve him next year. he has 1yr5wks to get chonk before we do estivation. still giving him lean meat with calcium every so often but he's eating mostly superworms now
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>>4357065
Are they noticeably different looking with eggs? She hasn't really gotten drastically fatter or anything.
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So if you don't have a 3way switch you just get the full blast, right? 150W?
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>>4357094
>Are they noticeably different looking with eggs?
No. You may see a slight widening just forward of the rear legs but I often don't notice at all before finding slugs in the substrate. Female cresties can be a bit moody around this age. They are not as bad as males though. In some cases males, especially virgin males, get very excitable at certain times of the year. My boy attacked my fingers every chance he got every spring for four or five years straight. Then he finally settled down a little.
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>>4356990
He wants to be a fucking turtle, its not a phase!
>>
Why are bearded dragons so tame and friendly? What's there deal?
>>
>>4357182
inbred to hell and back
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>>4357182
my least friendly herp
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>>4355369
>I really suspect bp's reputation as picky eaters is due to people expecting pythons to eat lukewarm prey based on smell

No
>>
can we get some more snake pics in here pleaase
>>
Apparently Emerald Tree Boas are better kept in a large tub then a large enclosure because they end up giving themselves prolapses while shitting on their perch...
Is it that they're being fed rodents instead of birds that they have a hard time pooping and end up pushing too hard or are they really just that fragile?
>>
>>4357484
prolapsing from shitting too hard sounds more like a constipation issue - does the tub imply no perch? maybe it's moving around more in the tub, which would stimulate defecation more, or (depending on the setup) it's closer to more moisture (moist ground versus just whats in the air) so it's more easily hydrated.
Food type may be a thing as well - birds are less dense than mammals, so there's less matter in a similarly sized bird to a rodent. the snake may just be taking really big shits.
Too many variables to say for sure, try birds and see what happens maybe?
>>
Tortoisebros... Where did we go so wrong raising our torts to make them have these hateful (based?) values?
https://twitter.com/i/status/1582369435150876673
https://twitter.com/i/status/1529214743222882304
sound on
>>
>>4357484
>>4357496
Isn’t the bird eating tree boa thing a meme? I know it is for green tree pythons
>>
>>4357513
Tortoises are known for their extreme racial prejudices
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>>4357513
I always love to see the self proclaimed reddit/twitter experts in the comments that say shit like the tortoise hates black because crows and snakes eat tortoise eggs and therefore they attack them
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>>4357513
Most animals just dont like the color black, No clue why but it just scares the shit out of them or pisses them off.
>>4357496
The tub had a perch but it's only like 8 inches off the ground and the tub is maybe a foot and a half tall. I dont keep them but I was just watching videos and reading guides on how to keep them and that's what this one guy who is one of the older breeders in the country said which seems crazy.
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How's this (5gal) for a juvenile musk turt bros?
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>>4357574
Climbing surface looks a bit steep for a young turtle to climb up. I’m no turtle expert though
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>>4357564
>boomer
>breeder
>says tubs are better
I've heard this song before.
>>
best reasonably sized snek?
>MBK
fad seems to be over, prices coming down
>hogger
fad seems to be in full swing, unlikely choice
>Children's python
>milk (any)
>>
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hello /herp/ bros, I bring more frogs
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>>4357930
>best reasonably sized snek?
One of the smaller boa sub species
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>>4357976
Hog Island or Solomon Island, right?
>>
>look on Morph Market
>Children's pythons are $150
oh buddy. it's looking likely.
>>
Followup to >>4355317
The Zilla rock hide is about 25% larger and like 300% heavier than I thought it would be, its now by far the largest feature in the enclosure, but it'll suffice. My standard sanitization routine (45 minute dilute bleach soak, 45 minute fresh hot water soak, 45 minutes fresh cold water soak) did some weird shit to the plastic, I guess the hot water was too hot for the resin because it got weirdly slimy/had a film on it and smelled strongly of styrofoam, but a quick rinse off and the cold soak brought it back to normal.
As far as Im aware they havent entered it, but Im content to just have it as an option.
>>
>>4358032
Also, this girl finally got a clean bill of health from the vet, so she's going back home with her sisters this evening. Need to do a little redecorating so they'll spend some all spend some time in the playground/outworld i made for them out of a 50 liter sterilite bin while I work. Im sure she'll be happy to dig in something a little more interactive than paper towels after so long in quarantine.
>>
>>4357930
Upgrade your current fucking enclosures hoarder-kun
>>4357979
Completely wrong, candoia are not comparable at all to locality bci.
>>
>>4357979
Those are the most common
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>>4357543
IIRC they mostly eat rodents and lizards. The teeth are big to help them kill without struggling with the prey item.
>>
>>4358163
well lizards are kind of wispy critters, but I suppose the actual details of its wild diet would shed more light on the subject.
Personally I kind of doubt the entire "curling up on branches = blowing out their own assholes" as a concept. If it IS a serious concern it has to be because of some other husbandry issue, and if it IS perch related it might be because of some other issue with the perch itself (wrong size, wrong shape, not enough perch options so it's sedentary) rather than the fact that it's perching period. If they hang out on branches in the wild and DONT regularly shit themselves inside out then logically hanging out on branches doesnt make them shit themselves inside out.
>>
>>4358163
That plus reducing the risk of dropping the prey item and losing from high up seem a lot more likely than the whole puncturing through a thick layer of bird feathers myth. Coastal carpets eat more birds than GTPs or ETBs and while their teeth are pretty long it’s not like they’ve got several pairs of viper fangs in their mouth
>>
>>4358123
IT'S HOARDER-SAMA YOU TRANNY

enclosures are fine to great. yeah rosy boa is a contender
>>
I got a filtered cat fountain for my boa and its a game changer. Was gone for a week and the water was still fresh. She's also constantly hanging around it. Going to buy one for every snake. This is peak husbandry, hidden lore rackfags don't want you to know about
>>
>>4358324
>fine to great
I guess you rapidly and miraculously upgraded everything. Post them?
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>>4358326
>filtered cat fountain
those things are HORRENDOUSLY overpriced given the cost of the most essential part. you're probably better off taking a trip to an aquarium store and putting one together yourself.
>>
>>4358324
Rosy boa could get 2-3 feet, they absolutely do not fit in a 10 gal if thats what you're thinking. Min for them is 25 gal but should be 30+

Consider a colorado desert shovel nosed snake, they're small and eat insects not rodents. or consider not hoarding animals
>>
>>4358334
I know for a fact you're talking out of your ass and haven't done this because I have, and it was a completely failed experiment. The pump just keeps the water flowing, it doesn't keep it clean at all. You save maybe one day of water changes and the pump will eventually get completely clogged with biofilm, which those cheaper pumps are absolutely awful to clean and have a very short lifespan. You need an actual filtration system in order to have any meaningful longevity to your water, so pump+foam+carbon+some way to secure it. Given a filtered pet fountain is 25$, it is in no way cheaper it build yourself.
>>
>>4358341
just because you failed doesn't mean I failed.
>>
>>4358327
>the Bosc obelisk
>the great beardie 4x1
>the corn snake 2x1 of winning
>>
>>4358346
>the forgotten pic
>>
>inside the obelisk
>the heavenly 20gal of sub-3ft semiarboreal snakes
(empty)
>the fully loaded ball python chateau
>>
>>4358345
Post your custom filter setup then. Eager to see it.
>>
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>the admittedly barebones leo 10gal that easily meets the 2x1*length standard
>>
>>4358341
1) >>4358354 isn't me, but I'm curious as to what his filter looks like
2) I'm curious what kind of cat fountain you got for $25, because I've gone through multiple filtered cat fountains that typically average anywhere from 40-60 and were almost all universally dogshit.
>>
>>4358364
I one I got for my boa was 50 bucks because it was very large and ceramic. It was just a cheap filter, foam cover, carbon filter, and a nice little outlet for the cord. I reckon the price was because they give you like three replacement filters and pumps though lmao. I got my BP a much smaller one for 25$ so we'll see if its comparable. So far works great.
>>
>>4358347
Weekly reminder that everything you own will outgrow what you are keeping it in in roughly a year. This is why you should stop purchasing animals. Future proof, purchase a 4x2x2 for your corn, ball, and beardie, upgrade your leo, and then buy animals whose ADULT SIZE will accommodate them for what you're putting them in.
>>4358357
Do not put a living creature in this. It is not sufficient for anything.
>>
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Yeah, I made it 3 stories. He's gonna love it, and get exercise too.
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>>4358452
>metal grating
goodbye toes.
>>
>>4358465
if anything that makes it worse. if a nail gets caught that's not as bad, but if a whole digit can get in...
>>
>>4358464
You know what, I'll give the gecko the hammock and the snake the metal thing. Its nice rough texture should be perfect for shedding.
>>
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>>4357608
She's seems able to climb it without issue, seen here about to bask
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Started building a 6x3x2.8 wood viv for a diamond python today. Can’t wait to become a proper herp snob and look down on all the slammed boipussy keepers while twirling my villainous moustache
>>
>>4357987
Is this the animal hoarder? Don’t you dare get a children’s or any Antaresia for that matter
>>
>>4358523
I'ma do it
>>
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I think this little guy finally feels at home
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>>4358736
cute!
>>
Anybody going to the Indianapolis reptile show tomorrow?
>https://www.midwestreptile.com/index.php
>>
>>4358520
They're one of the few pythons that can brumate. I really want to know if it's possible to breed them with larger pythons such as an african rock or a retic. Would the hybrid offspring be able to survive winter?
>>
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Don't ask me how but he knows
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>>4359164
they have really good senses of smell. your entire house is probably broadcasting "SNAKE SNAKE SNAKE SNAKE SNAKE SNAKE SNAKE SNAKE SNAKE SNAKE SNAKE SNAKE SNAKE SNAKE" to it.
Also why the FUCK are you feeding live?
>>
>>4359194
My son has cancer and he asked to see a snake take a live rat once before he died.
>>
>>4358736
fire skinks are VERY based
>>
Went to the Phoenix Expo today, Didn't buy anything but got to touch some stuff and meet people.
Hopefully when I go next year I'll be one of the guys walking out with a couple deli containers lol.
>>
>>4359195
Your son doesn't deserve shit.
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>>4359195
your son is a psychopath.
>>
>>4359207
>>4359208
Rodent apologists
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>>4359203
I'm going tomorrow. The Repticon a few months ago sucked, only a few tables and almost all bps. This is the big one, all kinds of breeders. I'm stoked.
>>
>>4359218
It was Allright. Lotta stinky people and there was some cute girls, Overall I liked it. Those enclosure vendors are straight fucking jews though $500 for a pvc 120 is insane.
>>
>>4359223
I'll make sure to smell good ^_^

Can I get a longer rundown? Weren't there like 100 vendors? What were the coolest animals you saw? Were there any /herp/ mainstays you _didn't_ see?
>>
>>4359233
The entire place was filled with vendors, They had some Rattle snakes, A gila monster, Caiman and Green anaconda on display
Lots of tegus, Leopard geckos and Ball pythons. Some frogs, Boas and caiman lizards too.
Coolest thing was probably the baby skink I got to hold.
>>
>>4359236
Thanks man. Really cool that they had pros there displaying animals you can't keep as pets in AZ (hots, crocodilians, gila monsters). Caiman lizards are awesome, expert level stuff. Tegus are amazing but I already chose the path of Bosc. Down the road. Idk if I want a beast monitor but a b/w tegu yeah. Hoping to get a small snake tomorrow.
>>
>>4359239
They had a Savanah and mangrove monitor but that's it.
I REALLY wanted the Blizzard Gopher Snake but I can't afford to spend 700 on one right now or take care of it.
They had tons of corn snakes and some king snake's in the back left of the place next to the lady selling Animal bone art.
>>
>>4359241
That is beautiful. I really want a basic tricolor milk. I'm sure I'll find one. Though I have some other candidates.
>>
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Yeah, I feed live now. That was amazing. Don't care about the cost.
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>>4359207
rats dont deserve shit
>>
>>4359299
I feed my ball live too but I wouldn't call it amazing. Maybe if I didn't like rats it would be but she does have more interesting behavior when she knows food is in the enclosure.
>>
>>4359322
She immediately started looking around the enclosure for more instead of just looking up at me. They're smarter than I thought.
>>
>>4359239
I thought AZ allows citizens to own native venomous? Rattlesnakes and Coral Snakes
>>
Any thoughts on a Reptile Outbuilding? I know this is more of a /diy post but I figured it’s more Herp related.
>>
>>4359357
A ductless AC / Heating unit will be added to the shed to keep temps around 70-80ish year around
>>
>>4359246
Good luck man, It was fun for sure and I know you'll find something there. I finally got a job a goodwill here in Scottsdale so if anyone dumps off a PVC or aquarium I get first dips hopefully lol. Oh also there was some fucking kid apparently just picking shit up and pocketing it. My brother pointed it out to me that some little shit grabbed a centipede and just put it into his pocket and walked off.
>>4359357
>>4359360
Depends where you live, Hardest part will probably be keeping humidity and having it not rape your wood within a few years. Some people use sheds for things like Monitors because it's cheaper and easier to just throw a pair in, Some dirt and a stock tub then build something in your house.
>>
>>4359372
Oh also there was some fucking rat faggot selling Indonesians as "Australians" despite them all having black arms.
>>
>>4359372
lol
>>4359384
oh shit I'll try to find him
>>
>Building 3 PVC enclosure with just light connectors and UVB hoods is $2 grand
FUCK
>>
>>4359372
I live in Utah so humidity is quite low. I plan to insulate the piss out of it and hopefully possibly utilize a dehumidifier if needed. I just keep Colubrids so I think it will work out, just have to save up the coin for the project.
>>
>>4359446
Also I’m possibly considering a metal / brick building. Although those methods would prob cost more than your average wood framed shed.
>>
>>4359384
>selling blue tongues as “Australians”
He couldn’t even decide whether to call them easterns or northerns? Lol.
>some little shit grabbed a centipede and just put it into his pocket and walked off
Hope it was a cherry red dehaani and that it pops the lid and ruins his week
>>
I know you guys hate racks and I'm not a fan of them either but thats more for big things. Dont keep ball pythons in little 20qt containers but what do you think about racks for pets if you dont have the room for a bunch full sized
enclosure but you still care for them?
>Animal hoarder!
No no no hear me out, I'm talking putting a leopard gecko or hognose in a 24 by 12 by 8 tub with a hide, heat Tape, substrate and all that instead of having multiple glass 24 by 12 by 16 which they wont even use the other 8 inches of climbing for.
People say only breeders should use racks but most breeders use way too small of racks, I think if you give the reptile enough room to enjoy its self and have room to live happily even if its in a rack its fine right? If people are fine with putting a leopard gecko in a 10 gallon whats the difference?
>>
>>4359455
No dude it wasnt even in a container, The dude had multiple loose in a lid less 10 gallon just chilling and the kid reached his little hand through the little guard fence and just grabbed one and put it into his pocket and walked away.
>>
>>4359459
Damn they were probably millipedes then
>>
>>4359462
It said Centipedes but it was the same guy selling "Australian Skinks" so who really knows lol
>>
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WAKE UP FAGGOTS IT'S EXPO DAY
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>>4355947
alot of i is spray foam carved out with something like eco earth and peatmoss siliconed to it
>>
>>4359592
LETTTTSS GOOO!!
Hey AZ anons, I’m going to Scottsdale Wednesday. Any cool Herp shops to check out / any possibility of field herping this time of year still?
>>
>>4359630
>field herping
I see a lot of chuckwallas in the spring
>>
>>4359592
the next expo in my area isnt until 2023
>>
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>>4359679
>not living in Phoenix metro
shiggy! don't get MBD champ
>>
>>4359679
I'm going to my shitty local one next month. There is zero chance they will have any of the things I'm interested in there and 100% chance someone with prior arrests will be selling baby alligators out of a kiddie pool.
>>
>>4359690
>100% chance someone with prior arrests will be selling baby alligators out of a kiddie pool.
That's how you know it's good
>>
>>4359351
It's a bit of a legal grey area. If I remember correctly you can collect up to 4 of every non protected rattlesnake species a year if you have a valid hunting license. The law says you can keep them alive so basically if you go out and catch a wild rattlesnake and have a hunting license you can keep it. However the law also says you can't keep venomous snakes as pets in AZ so you have 2 laws contradicting each other. If I was going to keep a venomous snake it would certainly be a rattlesnake since I can easily go to any hospital and know that they have antivenom or can get it quickly if something went wrong.
>>
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>>4359630
The Phoenix reptile sanctuary is pretty cool. I think Predators reptile center is neat too. They had a capybara earlier this year. I heard they had a crocodile monitor earlier this month but i didn't get to see it.
>>
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I'll call him Peter Hiss
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We're past peak MBK. They were going for $150. Still said nah I want a Cali.
>>
>>4359882
pretty
>>
>>4359865
>If I was going to keep a venomous snake it would certainly be a rattlesnake since I can easily go to any hospital and know that they have antivenom
That’sa really good point.
>>
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>>4359901
>Still no enclosure upgrades
>Buys a snake that needs a lot of space and puts it in a 10 gallon after being told by everybody not to
You might genuinely be a sociopath.
>>
>>4359865
Check the game and wild life collection rules for 2021-2024 or something like that, Rattlers are now on the no no list but Mexican vine snakes are not.
>>
Is air fresheners = bad another reddit meme? I mean obviously dont spray it in your reptiles eye balls but I have one on top of my book shelf in the corner of my room that sprays a scented Febreze every half hour, Would that murder my reptile like some people say it would?
>>
>>4360002
its like watching train wreck in slow motion
>>
>>4360002
Eventually they’ll die or he’ll get rid of them and he’ll stop posting about those individual animals
>>
>>4360076
Ive heard the essential oils can be bad for pets. Idk about regular air fresheners
>>
>>4360076
stuff in the air is bad for birds because of the way their blood is oxygenated - air suffuses their blood very quickly to toxic shit enters their bloodstream through their lungs very quickly. This isnt the case with reptiles, but snakes only have one functional lung so they may be more vulnerable to poor air quality over, say, a beardie or something.
I'd recommend not using it though, better to eliminate possible issues instead of going "it's probably fine" until it suddenly isnt.
>>
>>4360152
Then how do you prevent your room from smelling like dog shit? Dont say spot cleaning either that doesnt stop your room from smelling like shit for 4 hours after.
>>
>>4360184
Good room ventilation + bioactive setups
>>
>>4360002
20 gallon. 24x12. The damn snake is 14" long and pencil thin.
>>
Do you baby talk your herps?
>>
>>4360213
I engage my animals as if they were mute people. They are my companions and I want to treat them with respect.
>>
>>4360213
I say
>who's a good snake
when I'm trying to get him out and he's looking like he might give me a chomp
>>
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>>4360213
Affectionately call my bearded dragon a lil' Fatty or Fat fuck but i don't really baby talk to them. I talk calmly and genuinely with it but at the end of the day it's a lazy mother fucker I'd die for.
>>
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>>4360255
based
>>4360093
>>4360085
he climb! he loves his new home
>haters on 41% watch
>>
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>>4360187
I see... I've seen and heard of people using carbon air purifiers so I guess I could try that. For the last year I've been using this stuff.
Also how about smoking? I dont but my parents do smoke weed in their area across the house (Yes I live with my parents I'm in college shut up). Their smoke never comes into my room so I should be fine right? I guess I do need a air purifier.
>>
>>4360264
>portal gun
>mega weeb
Jfc
>>
>>4360264
>parents smoke weed
>a billion manga volumes
sasuga, Anon-san. you are very cool
>>
>>4360272
I got the gun when I was like 13 shut up
>>4360275
Akshually I have 920 volumes thank your very much
>>
>>4360213
All snakes should be referred to as long idiots
>>
>>4360213
I talk to them as if they understand me, though I know they don't. Did it when I first got them to get them acclimated to the big noisy monkey making big noisy monkey sounds, and now it's just habit.
>>
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Low lighting
>>
>>4360312
insanely based
>>
>>4360312
Species and Morph? Looks gorgeous the nostril things are so big they remind me of a tree boa.
>>
>>4360312
Is that a fucking burm?
>>
>>4360341
IIRC Anon has a mainland retic
>>
>>4360340
Mainland/Jampea quadroon, shes a goldenchild albino purple phase tiger or some bullshit
>>
...can somebody post Gwurf?
>>
>>4358736
CUTE
U
T
E
>>
>>4357044
wdym? many keepers of newts leave them aquatic year round. they are not going to brumate unless you keep them in a basement of a house in a cold country/state.

off hand, here are some available newts that can be aquatic 24/7:
Spanish ribbeds
Alpines
Easterns
Crocodile newts
Cresteds

what research is telling you these brumate? maybe in the wild.
>>
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More cinematic this one
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You guys think a 34 by 17 (13) by 5 tub is good for a single ball python? They're recommending that for a breeding pair but I think that's kinda fucked up.
I'd do pic related plus an inch of coco fiber and some fake plants.
>>
>>4361307
First you should go out and buy a proper enclosure or build one yourself. The next thing you’re gonna want to do is ditch the ball python and get yourself a better snake, I recommend a Bredl’s
>>
>>4361307
Go on SOG plastics or something and get a 4x2x2, if you want a ball python its probably going to just sit there and look pretty so having a fair bit of space to make the cage pretty is very nice.
>>
>>4361311
There's no difference to the snake between a rack and an enclosure as long as your not a nigger shoving a BP in a 20 quart container with no hide an a sprinkle of aspen, The only difference between a proper tub and a pvc enclosure is the cost, extra 8 vertical inches which they wont use and how pretty it looks. Besides I want a specific morph that looks fucking gorgeous.
>>4361320
Read above, I think interacting with your animal is always better then just looking at it. It's a part of my family not my collection as long as it's happy in its room and I take it out to hang out and explore for an hour a day it'll be happy compared to people who throw it in a 4x2x2 and just look at it. .It's the same as saying it cruel to feed a snake frozen because it doesnt taste as good as live. You're thinking of the snake as if it was you.
>>
>>4361328
The difference is aesthetic, which was my point, a ball python in a well decorated 4x2x2 is infinitely nicer to look at than a rack. This doesnt mean you cant interact with your BP, it just makes the keeping experience more interesting and enjoyable
>>
>>4361351
I guess, But if I have a large black pvc rack it would just look like another's book case in my room.
>>
>>4361328
>extra 8 vertical inches which they wont use
BPs absolutely use climbing space if they have it
>Besides I want a specific morph that looks fucking gorgeous
It’s personal taste but I don’t get why people buy a morph for how it looks and then stick it in a rack where they never see it unless they open it
>>
>>4361328
>I think interacting with your animal is always better then just looking at it.
Its not binary. You can have a nice looking, naturalistic enclosure where your critter can spend its time doing snake stuff AND take it out to explore around every day.
>>
>>4361495
you say this, but prying a 10 foot reticulated python off a branch is a trying experience
>>
>>4361120
amazing
>>
>>4361685
If your snake doesnt want to leave its enclosure and you dont HAVE to take it out, its probably best to not take it out.
Also, if you have a ten foot long retic and you havent trained it to shift in and out of its enclosure youre doing it wrong.
>>
>>4361704
Doesn't work, my retic has tried to eat the target twice now, its only good to show her when food is coming
>>
>>4361721
Get a bigger target and dont reinforce when she strikes at it.
>>
>>4361729
Mate there are some snakes that just aren't trainable, it comes down to the individual personality of each.
>>
You guys are the only autists I truly trust with correct information on contentious stuff so:
>can I use loose substrate for leopard geckos and if so what is safe
>>
>>4361751
3 scoops top soil 1 scoop play sand seems to be the way
>>
>>4361751
Impaction risk is pretty overstated in general, and most impaction is a result of shitty husbandry.
That said, and I am 100% serious and unironic when I say this, go outside and touch grass. Specifically, go outside and touch the ground the grass is on. Even aerated, well hydrated lawns arent made of loose soil, and if the soil IS loose somewhere, it's going to either blow away or get washed away by the next rain.
Now, look at the kind of environment leopard geckos are found in. Arid, rocky...the dirt's probably pretty hard packed in most places. Try to emulate that - lots of rocks (that are too big to eat), sandy soil (reptifiles recommends a 40/40/20 blend of topsoil, washed playsand, and excavator clay) packed hard in some places and softer in others.
>>
>>4361733
Do what you can, though, is what Im saying. Also the guy in the original post has a single ball python, so "its inconvenient to remove a 10 foot retic off of a branch" is irrelevant to the conversation either way.
>>
>>4361774
>>4361821
ok thank you. One question though, what exactly is top soil since I'm not american? We have potting soil (mostly compost, sometimes with perlite or pumice added) which I imagine isn't the same. Is it more clay like? Silt?
>>
>>4361328
>extra 8 vertical inches which they wont use
Lmao.
>>
>>4361721
Don’t use the same target for feeding and handling, retard.
>>
>>4361850
Topsoil might be called garden soil, or you can get it from your yard with a spade. Just make sure it doesn’t have fertilizer added.
>>
>>4361850
topsoil (maybe also garden soil) is dirt with organic matter in it, typically plant matter, that sort of thing. it's a little different from potting soil as it doesnt have the perlite/pumice added for aeration. Go for something organic, otherwise you might get pesticides or chemical fertilizers in it, which would be harmful to your animal.
excavator clay is its own thing, If I had to guess a mix of bentonite clay and sand as an aggregate, but I dont know the ratio there.
Alternatively you could just go somewhere outside you know for a fact hasnt been treated with pesticides/chemical fertilizer and just fill up a bucket with dirt then bake it in the oven at like 125c for an hour to sterilize it.
>>
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Huh, the superworms evolved faster than expected. I kept fucking these darkling beetles through the house that escaped their enclosure (and scared the shit out of my wife), so I had to isolate them in these $9.99 10 gallon tank(s) (Yeah the sale is on!, $1/gallon). Hoping to start a colony soon for my bearded dragon. Starting with 500.
>>
>>4361944
>I kept fucking these
>I kept finding these
freudian slip..
>>
>>4361751
Don't trust anyone here, half the people that post here are YouTube doctorate herpetologists with about 4 months of experience.
>>
>>4361951
Fuck you
>>
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>>4361955
>>
>>4361751
Just use eco earth, its simple and it works. Topsoil mixes are only really useful when dealing with massive quantities of substrate
>>
>>4361951
>about 4 months of experience.
Hey my corn is like 23 years old.
>>
Hoarder anon the good will in the Scottsdale pavilions have a 10 gallon with a broken lid for $20 that's just screaming Burmese python enclosure to me its all yours man.
>>
>>4362087
Kek
>>
Does feeding pixie frogs or bullfrogs mammals make them grow faster than feeding them fish, birds or insects?
>>
>>4362156
No those videos are all just sadistic subhuman niggers, It's proably more unhealthy than anything because of how fatty they are.
>>
>>4362158
>>4362156
mice for frogs is normal and healthy

https://www.backwaterreptiles.com/amphibian-care-sheets/pacman-frog-care.html
>>
>>4362170
>backwater reptiles
this has to be a fucking joke
>>
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Bros. My bp has been hongry lately and I've been feeding her a lot. But she hasn't pooped in a while. Today I look in the tank, massive urate plug, little poopoo. What does this mean?

Yes temp is fine, hot if anything. I do worry about impaction because the topsoil she's on is pretty mulchy.
>>
>>4362158
Only doofy subhumans shun predation. It's natural, and its okay. Stop trying to censor it away. Animals eat other animals. Stop being a pissy poo poo Disney E for everyone baby.
>>
>>4362177
based. never dealt with live pinkies before the other day, it was kind of wild. helpless little guy squeaking up a storm. and it was another baby who ate him!
>>
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Heyo
>>
>>4362221
Snek
>>
>>4362221
Based Retic keeper
>>
I fed my whiptails crickets today
>>
Anyone have experience with bullfrogs? How often can you feed them a week?
>>
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SO I'VE DECIDED for real this time hopefully!
>two 48 x 24 x 24
>two 48 x 24 x 16
>One 36x24x80 rack with either one 70 quart tub or two 32 quart tubs
I for sure want some BTS skinks I'd love monkey tails but there too pricy (Depending on where you go a private reptile shop near me had one on sale for $400 in a 40 gallon) and I dont have room for a 4x2x4 or larger really,
Since Blue tounge Skinks dont climb 16 high should be enough for them or a larger ball python and the 24 can be for another skink or maybe a bearded dragon if I do get one.
The tubs can be for smaller Ball pythons maybe a small gopher snake and some leopard geckos.
So let's say In the end I have something like
>2 BTS
>1 Beardie
>1 Chuckwalla
or four BTS in the PVC and like
>6 ball pythons
>1 Gopher
>4 leopard Geckos
in the racks I should only be spending like $200 a month on food right?
>$100 for 20 medium rats
>$20 for 100 Dubia
>$12 on 150 meal worms
>$20 for mixed greens
>$20 for high quality wet dog food
>$25 for Vitamins
I should be good right?
Obviously I wouldn't get these all at one time but maybe over like three years.
>>
>>4362170
>backwater reptiles
Lmao these people will tell you the same is fine for ackies, tree monitors and savs. You can discard any opinion they have
>>
>>4362177
Nobody is shunning predation. If the frog catches and eats a roach then that is still predation. What gets shunned here is the shit where people feed live mice to frogs for the fun of it, which is unethical for the mouse and dangerous for the frog. If you really want to give your frog a mouse then why put your pet at risk and use a live one over a frozen one? People who live feed vertebrates when it is unnecessary just have a vore fetish for the most part
>>
>>4362310
How is a pinkie mouse going to harm a frog or toad though
>>
>>4362177
Predation is one thing, literal 3rd worlders dropping a dozen hamsters into a 20 gallon with a pixie frog for animal bloodsports is a whole other thing. The channels that do this shit are exploiting animals for sadistic and possibly even sexual pleasure and even remotely excusing them is vile.
>>
>>4362313
Most people aren’t gonna be giving a pinkie mouse to something the size of a bullfrog. If you’re not feeding the frog larger mice then there’s 0 point in the first place given how small pinkies are and how little calcium/nutrition they have vs an adult mouse
>>
I finally got my milk snake to like me. it feels fucking great bros.
>>
>>4362321
Can you locally source your milkshakes now?
>>
>>4362321
what did you do to get it to like you?
>>
>>4361925
>>4361926
Thank you. I'll try to see if I can source some locally (digging in the garden isn't an option since I live in a condominium and all around public land it's pine forest with shitty super acidic soil unfortunately).
>>4361951
all advice I had in the past here was good, I trust anonymous autists with a passion more than youtubers that need clicks desu
>>4361968
by eco earth you mean shredded coconut husk? I use that for cresties because it retains a lot of humidity (also to germinate seeds) and if it gets dry it's very loose, I don't know if my gecko would be able to walk on it
>>
>>4362306
My beardie eats 100 dubia a week
>>
>>4362308
>>4362171
it's a guest poast, just read it
>>
>>4362306
Sooo you're not breeding? You just want several of the same animal? Okay I guess
>monkey tail
even if not dealing with babies I can't have any species that eats its mother's shit as a baby. I just can't respect them
>>
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Do rats just taste better? Small sample size and maybe they were just full or the f/t was gross but my snakes that have tasted rat seem to have lost interest in mice. Though when mousers they took their first rats right away
>>
>>4362462
Only one way to find out for sure.
>>
>>4362530
I might start doing pinky shots. Mice, not rats. Why not
>>
>>4362454
>Sooo you're not breeding?
Eventually I will but not in the near future
>>
This may make someone angry, but this is incredible of a story.

I accidentally left a dubia colony in a plastic tote outside where it's reached 15F this winter, didn't feed or water them and once I found it 3 months in, most of them are still ALIVE. The adults were alive too, seeming to find warmth from the egg crates. I don't think you need to feed dubia as often as people say.. I started the colony again with lots of food as an apology
>>
>>4362591
Oh also, I checked Google and seems everyone says they will die within hours or days of being exposed to extreme (it was literally snowing/frost etc), this is quite alarming and I am going to be more cautious with them knowing they won't simply "die off" if they escape into your house.
>>
>>4362593
I feel like the "you dont have to worry about escapees" thung is more because they require really warm temps to reproduce, so one that fucks off by accident isnt going to mean an infestation later.
>>
Anyone feed their herps German Roaches?
>>
>>4362661
No but I’ve herped my derp once
>>
>>4362661
Germanica are pretty small, I dont know if that would be terribly practical, even if they werent vile disgusting abhorrent vermin.
>>
>>4362663
Don't herp a derp
>>
>>4362667
I was thinking since they're so ready to breed they'd be good for culturing. But then there's the whole "living vector" and ranking as the #1 household pest in the US.
>>
>>4362672
Oh yeah they're also stupid fucking fast compared to the "baby thats been microwaved for 8 seconds" gait of a dubia.
>>
>>4362593
Oh they won’t die immediately on escaping into your house, most feeder roaches won’t. I’ve seen lobster roaches still hanging around months after escape. They just won’t start an infestation because they need higher temps to breed and most people don’t have rotting fruit lying around the house
>>
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Let her crawl around the shower a bit and look at that.
>>
>>4362915
>that shower
Love to see the board never changes
>>
Anyone know when Vivarium Electronics Radiant heal panels will be back in stock? I asked on reddit because those idiots normally know more about that stuff but I didnt get any answers.
>>
>>4362915
Nice tiles...
>>4362987
No idea.
>>
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he's so perfect
>>
>>4362915
poop aside, she's not too chonky, is she? just regular chonk levels? she's been kind of reclusive but if she's back to ambush mode tonight I'll move her up a rat size tomorrow
>>
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>Yellow Anaconda
>Green Anaconda
>Mainland Burmese Python
>Mainland Reticulated Python
Which is the best pet? Why?
>>
Snakes are too expensive
>>
>>4363221
>aquatic
>aquatic and most massive snake on earth
>reasonable
>longest snake on earth
>>
>>4363228
No they aren't.
>>
>>4363221
I love Moose and anacondas are the most based animal.
Burms usually match them in temperament and size, but you don't have the water feature so they're probably much easier.
>>
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Shit. Guys. Dry season comes for babies too. I think I should starve my savannah monitor this year. He's grown rapidly but maybe I should have bloatmaxxed him even more? Every other day feedings generally produce a daily poop so I figured I was fine. I think I'm gonna stuff him until the solstice then cut him off. His wild (or at any rate outdoor) parents lived the cyclical life and he should too.
>>
>>4363228
They're pretty cheap animals to keep. The biggest cost is usually the initial setup. After that it's pretty minimal
>>
>>4363284
virtually all snakes that haven't been morphagged to death are under $200

you can get wild type corns and bps for like $50
>>
>>4363285
>virtually all snakes are under 200$
That is...extremely wrong, lmao
Maybe the most common of common pet snakes are but anything even slightly niche will start to run you $500-$1000+
>>
>>4363292
corns
kings
milks
balls
MBK now
wild type hoggers
carpet python
children's/stimson's pythons
wild type BCI
rosies
rubber boas
garter snakes

all $200 or less at the last expo. I would guess 90% of snakes sold are for less than two hundo
>>
>>4363293
Yes, you just named all of the most common of common snakes. Also, there's rubbers were illegally caught wild as CB rubbers are $600+
Dumeril's boas - 600$
BCC - 400-1000$
BCO - 1000$
BCL - 400$
BIS - 1000$
Sanzinia - 2500-4000$
Yellow anacondas - 800$
Green anacondas - 1500$
CBB Candoia - $500+
CB Emerald Tree Boas - $1000+
CB Amazon tree boa - 300$+
Brazilian rainbow boa - 400$
also woma pythons, timor pythons, falsies, black headed pythons, angolan pythons, bredl's, diamond pythons, green tree pythons...etc
Why talk when you have no idea what you're talking about?
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>>4363299
stop being all gay
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>>4363305
stop spreading misinformation
stop hoarding animals
kys
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>>4363306
no one stepped to you, tranny. you're the one who started being a neovagina. mind your manners and stay out of the ladies' room.

I'm sure everyone ITT can agree that
1. most snakes are sold for under $200
2. most species and morphs available in the pet trade are over $200
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>>4363315
>virtually all snakes are under 200$
>most species available are over 200$
Hold onto your goalposts, faggot, and stop hoarding
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>>4363361
there's no goalposts dude, we were having a nice time until you trooned in with your uncharitable reading of "snakes" as "species." dial 8
>>
All right stop talking to yourself
>>
>>4363293
>rubber boas
Lel no. At least 1k
>>
>>4363429
*rainbow
>>
I had like little gnats/fruit flys flying around my snake enclosure I think it was a bit too moist in there because my snake spilled the water on the substrate.

I completely changed out the substrate with fresh one, wiped it all down.
And they are back again a few hours later after cleaning. Its only one or two. Idk where they were maybe around the room. Ive had this setup for about 2 months without issue.

Should I expect them to kinda just leave after about a day? Seeing I changed and cleaned it all out.
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>>4363437
The flying adults last a couple days, but the larva will live on anything growing fungus. Amazon yourself a culture of those soil nematodes that fuck their shit, and then boost your springtails with a fresh culture.
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>>4363440
Dear Bioactive Chad,

You can skip the plants and just buy poop eating bugs, right? Is there any reason not to do this?
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>>4363478
>Is there any reason not to do this?
No. Long as you have some leaf litter and shit for them to eat
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>>4363440
I dont have anything in the enclosure besides the actual substrate which is coco fiber and reptibark and I literally just put fresh in.
The rest is just plastic and I washed down all the hides and fake plants and disinfected the enclosure.

Im more worried about the flies multiplying. If they are just going to fly around a little more and die and not come back after i changed it then whatever ill just wait. But if theyre going to multiply despite me cleaning then I need to figure it out.
>>
Anyone else ever keep Whiptail lizards?
I have 4
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>>4363505
Pour hot (boiling) water down all your drains or they will colonize them. Especially any floor drains you might not think about regularly.
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>>4363514
not him but thanks for this reminder
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>>4363514
I dont think this is where they are coming from/living
The thing is in my bedroom
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>>4363521
>I dont think this is where they are coming from/living
It will be...it will be...
>>
I think King cobras are the best looking natural snakes but I wouldnt ever want one.
But I just love how they look with the larger scales and more consistently solid body and square heads. What else looks like a king cobra?
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>>4363743
There's no substitute for the KC. I'm fact I'm handling mine right n--ACK
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>>4363743
King cobras are a bit of a one-of-a-kind snake, but King rat snakes, specifically Elaphe carinata yonaguniensis, look very close and get pretty big. They have similar colours with the same sort of head scales, though their head is less boxy
1/2
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>>4363743
Drymarchon species, especially black tailed cribos, are another that look very cobra-esque. They’ve got a bit more of a square head and are another really cool species. They’re also highly intelligent with the same feeling of awareness that king cobras have
2/2
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>>4363769
>>4363770
I should also probably add that I have no idea how easy either of these species are to get ahold of or how expensive they are, but both are extremely based and the king rat in particular looks uncannily similar to a king cobra so if you see either buy it immediately
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>>4363773
drymarchon are pricey as fuck. like "do I get a snake or pay my mortgage this month" pricey.
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>>4363778
Worth it
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>>4363778
I knew indigos were, but I thought cribos were a bit cheaper. Nerd has yellow tails for like 1-2k but personally I wouldn’t trust them and don’t think they look as good as the black tails. Still no idea about king rats though, especially not the yonaguniensis
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>>4363785
Thank you! I think this is the closest. They seen to be about $700 starting for a normal CBB. Looks like I'll need to wait till I have a bigger living space to get one though if they need a 6 by 3 by 2 and there shit is that smelly.
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>>4363769
They really fucking do look like king cobras. The head and scales are nearly identical to picrel
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New Thread:
>>4363941
>>4363941
>>4363941



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