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File: possibly_dumb_animals.png (548 KB, 486x474)
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when I accidentally step on a insect, I feel sad but not too much, since it's like more of a machine than an animal. But these creatures though (pic related) seem like a higher form of life with sentience, and I wouldn't want to hurt one unnecessarily... but is that logical? or am I just being tricked by their expressive-looking faces which make them feel more like a "person", sort of like a dog or a human?
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>>3926268
I feel more empathy for them and insects than i do most mammals for whatever reason
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>>3926268
It depends on the definition of "sentience". It usually means the quality of feeling things and having sensations, so it involves a neurological system, which even insects have. If that's the definition, then the only animals that don't feel anything would be sponges, the only ones without neurons. Everything from jellyfish to humans feel pain, hunger, desire, fear etc.

But perhaps the definition you want is not sentience but "conscience" or "sapience", which would be the quality of self-awareness and total wisdom of its surroundings. If you go by that definition, then it's tricky. We know for sure that some mammals, birds and molluscs have that characteristic, but how we know for sure how other animals perceive the world and themselves? There's no way to know and that has been called in philosophy of mind the "hard problem of consciousness".
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>>3926268
Why would they not be?
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>>3926268
yes
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>>3926268
>since it's like more of a machine than an animal
Where do you guys get these retarded ideas from? Is it the byproduct of some kind of subreddit?
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>>3926276
A lot all mammals have It. A dog knows things, a Spider no. Its like they can form conections with other people based on something more than pack with the others and swim and sex sex sex kind of behaviour. If they know to do that they have something going on
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>>3926268
there are lego sets with more intelligence than those things
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>>3926268
amphibians are the dumbest thing in that image, plenty of smart reptiles and fish
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>>3926276
After reading Blindsight I'm not entirely sure about there being much sense about the "self-aware" criteria
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>>3926276
>Everything from jellyfish to humans feel pain, hunger, desire, fear etc.
>Jellyfish
>pain, hunger, desire, fear
doubt it. neurons are not magical consciousness-generating devices. they are just hardware components. if you think a jellyfish, or a nematode can experience sensations, just because they happen to have a "central nervous system" of a few hundred neurons that let it swim and wriggle around, then you ought to think that artificial neural networks that have billions of parameters (basically "neurons") are also capable of experience. Do you think AlphaGo or Google Translate have experiences? They're both neurologically far more complex than either of the above mentioned animals.
>There's no way to know and that has been called in philosophy of mind the "hard problem of consciousness".
I thought the hard problem of consciousness was determining how the material world gave rise to conscious first-person experience. The "what it's like to be a bat" questions is related but distinct, right?
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>>3926268
House flies are conscious enough they can tell I'm looking at them. They'll freeze and stop moving so they're ready to dodge a flyswatter. If I take my eyes off them they go back to wandering around looking for food or whatever they do.
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>>3926507
>basically "neurons"
Not even close.
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>>3926601
okay, so would you say 1000 ANN neurons are doing as much computation as 1 biological neuron? or 10,000? the exact ratio doesn't really matter for the argument I was giving. I'm just saying that they are computational analogues of the stuff in our head.
what is the alternative view, exactly?
>neurons are quantum anomalies
>humans are snowflakes
yeah, fuck off, Penrose...
and there are even theories that the human brain uses backprop for learning like an ANN (which I don't buy into actually, but it shows how they're similar)
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>>3926435
>A spider no
Fuck off, Portias are cool
https://youtu.be/PQbScg3r1oQ
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>>3926276
>Everything from jellyfish to humans feel pain, hunger, desire, fear etc.
yes because a single basic neurone that triggers an automatic reflex is the same thing as highly specialised and complex networks of specialised receptors and neurons that translate to things like 'pain' and 'fear'.
Pain requires nociceptors which only exist in vertebrates, and even then some vertebrates don't have them e.g. sharks and rays. You're making a huge and really dumb extrapolation of the role of neurons in highly complex behaviours and sensations such as pain, fear, hunger, desire etc.
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>>3926268
You have to understand consciousness before contemplating different forms of it than your own. It could be possible that from their perspective, they are just as complex a being as you are. Either that or their lives are designed completely differently and to understand the ups and downs of the life of a frog or a lizard or a fish is impossible from the perspective of a human which is the only known animal that can see Time this way.
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>>3926268
not sure but def hamster falls in this category
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>>3926617
Sharks and rays react to painful stimuli. There are nociceptor equivalents in every being apart from sponges so they don't get harmed in nature.

>>3926632
Exactly, that's the hard problem of consciousness.

>>3926507
Artificial intelligence can absolutely be sentient.
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>>3926269
They are probably hapier than me. I wish i was some kind of jellyfish that lives forever at the bottom of the ocean
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>>3926507
>touch it
>it reacts
It feels sensations.
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>>3926632
>It could be possible that from their perspective, they are just as complex a being as you are.
really? a jellyfish?
what about one of my skin cells?
If the simplest organisms can be as mentally complex as we are "from their perspective", that wouldn't mean that we and them just happen to have different perspectives on the matter. That would mean that everything we thought we knew about biology was totally wrong. We might as well expect rocks to be mentally complex at that point.
a better measure of complexity is Kolmogorov complexity, which has nothing to do with "perspectives" and is based on data compression.
>There are nociceptor equivalents in every being apart from sponges so they don't get harmed in nature.
There are "nociceptor equivalents" on Boston Dynamic's robots that prevent them from running into things and getting damaged. Does that mean they feel pain?
exhibiting behavior =/= having an experience
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>>3926687
You have not thought about this very hard.
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>>3926687
low iq
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>>3926353
I see it reposted a lot mostly in vegan bait threads. I am unconvinced it's not one guy's attempt at starting a meme or just getting the phrase to catch on. Slow boards suffer the most from obsessed retards.



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