In space, nobody can hear you fart EditionRESOURCES:https://speculativeevolution.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Tutorial>One-stop shop for relevant background information for starting a projecthttp://planetfuraha.blogspot.com/>Fantastic blog covering all sorts of spec evo topics in-depthhttps://specevo.jcink.net/>The Speculative Evolution forums, full of resources and ongoing projectshttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egzZv8tqT_k&list=PL6xPxnYMQpquNuaEffJzjGjMsr6VktCYl&ab_channel=Biblaridion [Open] [Embed] [Open] [Embed]>Part exobiology project, part spec evo tutorial, Biblaridion’s alien planet video series is informative and well-researchedRECOMMENDED PROJECTS:https://pastebin.com/zhBbaNTB>Link to a PDF of Wayne Barlowe’s “Expedition”, a seminal work of speculative evolution full of incredible paintings and illustrationshttps://sunriseonilion.wordpress.com/>Ilion, an illustrated tour of a tidally locked planet, really fantastic science in this projecthttp://www.cmkosemen.com/snaiad_web/snduterus.html>Snaiad, life on an alien worldhttps://youtu.be/Rbi8Jgx1CNE [Open] [Embed] [Open] [Embed]>”The Future is Wild”, a CGI documentary following the evolution of life on Earth in the far futurehttps://pastebin.com/esdFrSEZ>Dougal Dixon, arguably the father of speculative evolution. These are links to PDF’s of his books “After Man”, “The New Dinosaurs”, and “Man After Man”https://www.deviantart.com/sanrou/gallery/56844005/anu>Anu, a beautifully illustrated xenobiology projecthttp://www.planetfuraha.nl/>Furaha, another alien world with very scientifically detailed creationshttps://sites.google.com/site/worldofserina/home>Serina: A Natural History of the World of Birds
Previous thread>>3840803And for the love of god, make some oc this time
I've been reading up on Diyu and it's been making me want to talk about cavern animals, like the IRL ones, and how they might diversify in a more robust cavern system. Let's throw geology completely out the window and say there could be a cavern system out there that rivals the living space a continent has, and is populated with typical extant troglodyte species like olms, various invertebrates, cave eels/fish/etc with little if any outside interference. I imagine it would primarily be sustained by underground rivers feeding into it, with the base of the system being bacteria and sponge-like organisms that feed on detritus that flow in from the outside in the absence of normal flora. Maybe some of the biggest predators would be gigantic olms that fulfill a similar niche as the crocodile. Honestly given they're one of the very few fully cave-adapted land vertebrates I feel olms would speciate a lot in a situation like this.
>>3865957I guess you could also add bats if you really wanna because they're very iconic cave animals even if they aren't full cave dwellers.
>>3865957Where would you put the formation of the cave in the first place? It's very important to determine what animals will reach it for first and thus colonize the area. Obviously others will join and maybe even outcompete most of the dominant races but still
>>3865957I like the idea, but I think you can do better with the scenario: Place it on an artificial O'Neill cylinder of that scale and populate it with hand-picked representatives. In any case, no matter the scenario, I agree it would be really interesting, but I find it hard to imagine how terrestriality would return due to the seeming isolation of energy being produced in the water. Surely some animals would escape predators via clamboring onto land, but I don't see how there would be the equivalent of grazers in such a situation, unless you introduced chemosynthetic organisms and built the environment on that.
>>3865965>>3865966Something like the O'Neill cylinder or something vague is probably the answer for this because I just want to think about big caves and the cool animals that might evolve in them. Fuck, the premise could basically amount to "God thought it would be cool so he made a big cave and spawned populations of all the cave animals that exist today inside of it to watch what they do".Another cool cave animal is remipedes btw, aquatic centipedes.>Surely some animals would escape predators via clamboring onto land, but I don't see how there would be the equivalent of grazers in such a situation, unless you introduced chemosynthetic organisms and built the environment on that.Maybe it could be a slime mold kind of situation, where there's just carpets of super-primitive but constantly moving/changing life that over millions of years creates detritus for graze-able organisms to grow on. I don't want to go full handwave besides the implausibility of the cave itself, though if chemosynthetic organisms could work by converting something into oxygen to provide air for the animals to breathe that could be a good idea.
>>3865957Maybe have it work something like Diyu, where a large cave forms at a certain point in time and traps some of the fauna inside it. It might be interesting to see which animals from different periods survive and adapt to cave life
The movie prometheous and it's sequels had a lot of potential bros...
>tfw when an All Tomorrow's documentary might happen in the futurehttps://youtu.be/YIv3ySLPsQU https://youtu.be/ZrZh-51aoQAhttps://youtu.be/tXVKbmvLh_ABest timeline.
>>3866532Yes. Covenant was fucking garbage.
>>3866650Am I the only one that doesn't really like All Tomorrows? It's not even spec evo, really, and it's just a short body horror story.
>>3866788>doesn't like a zany glorified horror art book with glib pseudohistorical backdropAdmit that you just hate fun things.
>>3866823I think it's fine, just not my taste. I prefer Children of Time.
I see severe cases of Lamarckism and misconceptions about evolution popping up again and again on speculative evolution forums.If you want to really sharpen up your understanding of evolution I recommend the following reading list before embarking on an speculative evolution journey:> The Selfish Gene - Richard Dawkins> The Extended Phenotype - Richard Dawkins> The Revolutionary Phenotype - J.F. Gariepy (Author is a massive schizo but this book is a piece of art)> Evolution and the Theory of Games - John Maynard Smith> Animal Signals - John Maynard Smith> (Optional, The Revolutionary Phenotype explains this better, but it's a good complement) The Red Queen - Matt RidleyThe two following books are optional but helpful:> Mendel's Principles of Heredity - Bateson & Mendel> Population Genetics: A Concise Guide - John H. Guillespie
>>3866788>It's not even spec evoIt is. At least part of it.
>>3866823>tfw get stuck in wife's vagina pit
>>3866982I'll provide a good example of Lamarckism in Speculative Evolution.Many have theorized about the possibility of life evolved in rogue planets (planets without a sun).Some of these planets could have vast oceans kept liquid by their tidal forces.Now a big mistake I see is representing the life in this kind of environment as having evolved a complex system of bioluminescent tools. I'll proceed to explain why this is highly unlikely.Evolution doesn't have a purpose and can't produce something out of nothing. An adaptation can only occur in a context where even a small change can give you some advantage.Now this takes us to bioluminescence. Bioluminescence evolved in complex organisms because it is a useful signal, it can be used to find a sexual partner, as a defense mechanism, to attract prey, etc.The problem lies in the fact that for a signal to work it needs to be interpreted by the receptor of the signal. Bioluminescence evolved because creatures had eyes and thus, the bioluminescent signal could already be interpreted by the receptors. And the reason creatures had eyes in the first place is because on the surface of the planet there was enormous amounts of light, thus, even the most primitive of photoreceptors could give an advantage to the organism that had them.Now that the creatures had organs that interpreted light signals the possibility to "hijack" that receptor system through the emission of signals was open.In a world without sun there is no reason to evolve even the most primitive of eyes, and thus no hijacking can take place, there is no reason why bioluminescence can give you any kind of advantage. It's not gonna happen, it doesn't matter if it would be a great advantage to have it, because there is no possible mechanism for it to emerge.If you want your rogue planet to have bioluminescence you better come up with a good explanation why eyes evolved in the first place.
>>3867077A second example I see everywhere, the evolution of flight.Flight is a difficult one because it either happens or it doesn't. You can't have "shitty flight". A wing has a minimal threshold of efficiency to provide an evolutionary advantage. You can gradually evolve great flying ability from shitty flying ability, but you can't gradually evolve flying ability from no flying ability. The shitty explanation most people give: The animal first evolved to glide and then evolved flight from there.I'll proceed to explain why animals that fly don't evolved to glide first and why animals that glide will not evolve to fly.Gliding is not a primitive form of flying. Gliding is it's own thing, animals that glide have very different structures from animals that fly. A flying squirrel that starts shaking it's arms is not gonna evolve flight, it's gonna lose lift and turn into a splatter against the ground.To understand how these abilities evolve we must understand the evolutive hijacking that takes place.Let's take the Flying Squirrel, evolving a shitty membrane between your extremities that makes you fall 0.002% slower will not give you any evolutionary advantage, you're gonna splatter against the ground all the same, you first need to evolve a big membrane between your extremities for whatever other purpose, but it so happens that you live in trees, and sometimes you fall, and that big membrane you evolved for other purpose acts as a parachute and saves your ass. Congratulations you now have shitty glide, and it gives you an advantage, and those with less shitty glide have a bigger advantage, a fortuitous series of events have just so happened to give you the tool of gliding and now those with better gliding have an advantage. No animal evolved glide because they had a pressure to glide in the first place, they stumbled into it and found it useful.I'll keep explaining in a following post replying to this one.
>>3867090I agree with your analysis so far in all fronts but there's nothing wrong with suggesting that gliding COULD evolve into flight, just as long as there are other factors at play. If an animal were to continue getting larger membranes after they were proven advantageous and for entirely unrelated reasons gained an ability to flap wings or otherwise increase lift then mixing the two together could potentially lead to flight in a gliding animal. The reason I say this is just to play devil's advocate, so don't take it as a criticism of your arguments insofar.
>>3867090Ok, so now we have established that you can't evolve glide from an evolutionary pressure to glide, you have to stumble your way into it and now that you have an useful ability you can get better at it.Same thing with flying. You have to stumble your way into shitty flying and evolve better flying from it.That's where you can get creative. Maybe your animal evolved big nice feather like structures in their arms to attract a sexual partner, maybe that sexual courtship consists of using the feathered arms as a fan to raise a big cloud of dust, after all, only the healthiest and most fit males have the strength and stamina to waste their time raising a big cloud of dust and then escape all the predators that noticed their presence right?Ah, but then something something happens: a more aerodynamic and bigger fan helps raise more dust and it gets aerodynamic to the point that it's now useful as a propelling and maneuvering tool while chasing prey and running from predators. Now there's an even a bigger pressure for a big, nice aerodynamic fan. It start's getting bigger and more aerodynamic to the point that our creature can now chase prey running up a tree or cliff while fanning, and can glide or fan in it's way down to avoid the fall.Great, our creature has now stumbled onto shitty flight and can evolve more efficient flight from there.I hope you now have a better idea of hijacking and the evolution of certain tools and you can stop saying "animal started jumping more and more and eventually it could fly"I have to go to the gym now, but when I come back I'll write a third post about my biggest pet peeve: The evolution of eusocial insects. A topic even most academics fail to understand to my great annoyance.
>>3867090>I'll proceed to explain why animals that fly don't evolved to glideexplain bat then, the main theory for how they develop flight is that they evolve it through gliding flight https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18605533/ The evolution of flight in bats: narrowing the field of plausible hypotheseshttps://journals.biologists.com/jeb/article/218/5/653/14631/Bat-flight-aerodynamics-kinematics-and-flightBat flight: aerodynamics, kinematics and flight morphology
>>3867111>explain bat then, the main theory for how they develop flight is that they evolve it through gliding flightYou're forgetting about wing-assisted inclined running.
>>3867102>I have to go to the gym now, but when I come back I'll write a third post about my biggest pet peeve:>The evolution of eusocial insects. A topic even most academics fail to understand to my great annoyance.I'm very much looking forward to this
>>3867077>>3867090>>3867102Holy crap an informative post on this Ugandan tattooists' forum.
>>3867090>Let's take the Flying Squirrel, evolving a shitty membrane between your extremities that makes you fall 0.002% slower will not give you any evolutionary advantage, you're gonna splatter against the ground all the same, you first need to evolve a big membrane between your extremities for whatever other purpose, but it so happens that you live in trees, and sometimes you fall, and that big membrane you evolved for other purpose acts as a parachute and saves your ass.This is totally wrong for the simple reason that squirrels have a non-fatal terminal velocity. In other words they can fall from any height and land unharmed (Well, high enough and they run into oxygen problems but then it isn't the fall that kills them)Gliding evolved in flying squirrels not as a way to save them from falling injuries but as a way to control their fall and not hit the ground but rather glide to the next tree over.
>>3867203For bats? That seems incredibly unlikely considering even very primitive bats were quadrupedal walkers and for wing assisted incline running you really need to be bipedal.
>>3867102>I have to go to the gym now, but when I come back I'll write a third post about my biggest pet peeve: >The evolution of eusocial insects. A topic even most academics fail to understand to my great annoyance.Awesome, thats one of my pet peeves as well. Could you also do one about the evolution of pollinators? Seems like every spec project has some form of animal assisted plant pollination evolve as soon as they both colonize land
>>3867102>>3867111Part 1/2Ok, back from the gym with the bombshell about eusocial insects.Here's the thing, what you should understand first of all is that all that you are is a product of your genes trying to pass themselves to the next generation, your self preservation instinct for example evolved to protect your genes, because you are the only thing carrying your genes.But what happens if you don't carry your genes? Well, all the evolutionary instincts then evolve towards protecting and caring to whatever thing is carrying your genetic information.I hope you see now where this is heading. In "eusocial" insects only the Queen is able to reproduce, every other member of the colony has his genotype stored in the Queen and the only way to pass it is if the Queen reproduces. All the evolutionary pressures of the colony are geared towards the queen, as a member of the colony it doesn't matter if you live or die as long as you are helping the Queen by doing it because you are a genetic dead end, but your genes still live through the Queen.This is one of the biggest mindfucks in biology when it really hits you. "Eusocial" insects are not eusocial. Hell, most of them are not even social, THEY ARE A SINGLE ORGANISM THAT HAS MULTIPLE BODIES. This is not to be confused with the SciFi trope of the "hivemind", it's even more weird, each member of the colony has a mind of their own, but all the evolutionary pressures of their mind is gearing them towards the Queen, all the mechanisms that are giving you a will to live, to reproduce, to cover your needs, to be happy are working towards the Queen in the case of "Social" insects. If you had evolved like this you would happily throw yourself into a pit of acid if that meant helping your Queen because you are just a disposable piece of the Queens phenotype you are just like a cell in the body of the Queen, like a platelet dying to help your body, you would happily die if it's serving the Queen, you evolved for that.
>>3867239Part 2/2"Social" insects didn't evolve from a bunch of happy friends in the woods who decided to form a commune, at some point a female insect had a mutation that made some of it's progeny sterile, but it also gave her some other advantage that was worth the cost.This trait started spreading through generations and as the female that was able to reproduce suffered random through normal mechanisms mutations so did the sterile progeny. Eventually a female arose which sterile progeny had some tendency to help her and that gave her an evolutionary advantage, it started to out compete the females whose sterile progeny didn't help and eventually all the females were producing helpful sterile progeny. Then an arms race ensued, those Queens with the most helpful progeny had an advantage, and thus the sterile workers that were more helpful to the Queen had also an advantage. The evolutionary pressure of the workers started to be that of being more helpful and the evolutionary pressure of the Queen was that of producing more workers, eventually mutations for specialized workers started to arise and division of labor occurred. As you can see this is completely different from socialization in animals that carry their own genes.In fact to understand real socialization between Ants or Bees you have to see what happens between colonies not between individuals of a colony. And most of the time what happens is that they totally annihilate each other in the most brutal wars the animal kingdom has ever seen. You have evolved for your Queen and in war you will keep going without fear until you are completely destroyed because you don't matter, only the Queen matters.Some species of ants and bees can be seen forming nest with multiple Queens, now that's a real example of socialization, multiple Queens cooperating.Sterile workers helping their Queen are as much an example of socialization as the cells in your body are.
Thought about another planet inhabited by Tīeke/Kōkako Hybrid descendant flightless analogues of Terror Birds except they have Omnivorous tendencies, eating Meridiungulates, Marsupials, Fruit and large Insects such as the Giant Wētā.
>>3867220Sure, for bats gliding seems like the more likely path.
>>3867253Pic also related.
>>3867239Yes. I too have read Dawkins' book "The Selfish Gene".
>>3867246>"Social" insects didn't evolve from a bunch of happy friends in the woods who decided to form a commune, at some point a female insect had a mutation that made some of it's progeny sterile, but it also gave her some other advantage that was worth the cost.So that's actually not accurate and species with many reproductive gamergates in the same colony are thought to be the primitive condition.
>>3867246Ok, answering some responses. Before proceeding to another awesome topic.>>3867111Ok, maybe my statement was too harsh, some animal could theoretically evolve flight from gliding, but it's difficult. Bats are not my area of expertise but I'll read those studies (thanks for linking them) and research what the fossil record can tell us.I think bats are specially suited to evolve flight from gliding as their wings are made from membranes in their hands, by that logic I could also see pterosaurs evolving flight from glide.>>3867216Yeah, I don't know why I didn't think about that. The point still stands a small increase on a membrane is not going to help you get from one tree to another, a big membrane that you already had on the other hand, could.Also to somewhat defend my point, not dying from a fall does not equal not getting injured from a fall, even if the chance is small, having a parachute could make a difference across many generations. Lactose tolerance for example gave a minuscule advantage to the human populations that had it but across generations it was enough to replace all the lactose intolerant humans in many populations.
>>3865894Whats the perfect pet /se/? Or perhaps more interesting to me, could you have something very much like a cat, but somehow, it did not evolve weapons that pose danger to humans, had an incredible degree of restraint in using them for play (has no evolutionary need to use them that way in play somehow?), and/or does not use those weapons for play?What else would make it a nice pet?For me, I think the ideal pet is something like this long checklist:>Lives between 5 and 20 years, but maybe longer could be OK.>cat's cleanliness>cat's ability to change voice (bird if we wanna go further)>cat's purr or similar (the healing frequency thing? at least some kind of soothing sound)>dog's ability to smile and general expressiveness>ACTUALLY COMES WHEN CALLED CONSISTENTLY YOU STUPID BITCH>somehow hypo-allergenic?>travels well like a dog>tolerates other animals>squosh>cute>doesn't shit everywhere. Doesn't make big messes>no grooming required>not plagued with health problems>relatively easy to please, but also smart>obedient>appreciates when you come home with relative consistency but doesn't bowl you over like a fucking mutt>not a troublemaker? unless that's a give or take thing, then maybe I guess it would depend>wings or other weird appendages, shapes, fur or lack thereof are up to taste, though the more interesting the better as long as it is still cute and aesthetic>bonus 1: Can still protect house despite being ok to play with barehanded... thinking about it, maybe it just has strong but dull teeth? Dogs don't usually cause scratches and shit the way cats do>bonus 2: you think of a cool trick it can learn or just doI want to imagine first it somehow evolves naturally under some ideal circumstances, but then I want to imagine we just went all out and made the perfect pet with gene manipulation.TL;DR perfect pet probably based off the cat or maybe birds if you can somehow manage that angle. Go.
>>3867269Wait hang on I forget pets are also bred... So, I guess I want the base animal, then we talk about how it changed with breeding.>I know nothing about biology, by the way
>>3867263There can be many paths to the same adaptation, the sterile offspring can be just productively hampered, not fully sterile. bumblebees for example are not fully sterile, but the workers are reproductibly hampered and can only produce males. Also the Queen has evolved to suppress the reproduction of the workers through pheromones or physical removal. The fact that we don't see an arms race between the workers and the Queen means that the sterile workers are gaining more by being genetically submissive to the Queen. If I remember correctly Bumblebees are much more modern than bees, they are probably halfway there, eventually the workers will lose all reproductive ability (probably)
>>3867269Also crossing with hominini in anyway is creepy and disallowed.
>>3867269>cat's cleanlinessSo it's constantly covered in its own drool? No thanks. Just breed dogs so they're smart enough to use toilets and shower. We are already getting closer by the day. it wold be much better.>no grooming requiredAnything with fur, part of being cute instead of ugly like humans, will need groomed. It's just a matter of the coat blowing extremely infrequently and keeping a manageable length of hair naturally dirt repelling hair.What we're going to do is take a medium size dog, with the temperament of a golden retriever, more brains than some people, the nearly odorless and dirt-repelling coat of a husky but changed so it never blows, and make their front paws a little more articulate so they can operate faucets, toilets, toothbrushes, etc. Also reduce saliva production a bit, keep lips tight, and ingrain the tendency to swallow excess spit. Towards the completion of the breeding and genetic engineering program these would be considered people, not pets, and have full citizenship and commonly work in the service industry and academia.But why? All these things are great for increasingly useful and agreeable service dogs.
>>3867274what if instead of crossing with homini we modify homini
>>3867277...Okay actually, I take it back. B-but anything in the order of primates has to be happy throughout the whole process and not existential crisis inducing unless its... really worth it maybe. Same for any animals approaching human intelligence (smarter than crows and dolphins)
>>3867277>>3867278And they have to be accepting of most owners without special care, low maintenance, don't do stupid shit, don't require an income of their own, don't generally need to bother you with their problems as a confidant, and probably not remotely close to humans but fuck it tell me about the waifus and superhuman butlers too.
>>3867282The ideal pet is a fuzzy plant that appears to mimic some animal behaviors and has a face.The ideal companion is a non-human person who is as domesticated as the humans of their future, as humans of this timeline are told that other humans are not their friends and anyone who wants to be friends wants to overthrow the peaceful order of the world and selfishly seize power and enforce their wants on the world. Organization destroys the peace. The nature of humans in groups has been recognized as harmful. These companions range from animals modified to have human level intelligence to robots. People live among all sorts of androids, furry abominations, and mobile suit dolphins, but avoid speaking to each other except in a strict language of technical protocols and instructions called "humanese". No one has reproduced naturally in hundreds of years. People have their DNA sequenced and parts of their gonads removed and kept alive artificially, with the functional body left in but unable to be used in conception, and the state manufactures ideal children using these materials and artificial wombs. Please, be happy with your real friends, citizen. When you are with them, is not the world much better? There has not been a war in 500 years, which ended when this great society was established.
>>3867277Hmmm, today I will store my genetic code in a computer and let a computer program choose the necessary genes to produce a cat girl.Cat girls start reproducing like mad because males only want to fuck their perfectly engineered cat girls.Women start modifying themselves and their kids because they can't compete, eventually there are only cat girlsSome Cat girls start using genetic modification to out compete other Cat girlsEventually your evolutionary success is dictated more by the computers and programs you are using than by your own reproductive abilities.Competition ensues to get the best computer and programs to get the best genes.Sex is now useless it's all about the computer.Years pass, now most of humanity's work and resources are geared towards getting better computers and programs. People start protecting their computers at all costs, wars are fought to get hold of other's computers and programs.Thousands of years have passed, You protect the computer, your life is worthless, you only live to protect the computer, the computer has your genes, the computer knows what's best, all that I am is for the good of the computerMillions of years have passed, you have no resemblance to the humans of old, you are a sterile worker, all that you are, from the shape of your body to your desires are determined by the Computer for it's own benefit. There is nothing but the computer, you crawl among millions of other different sterile workers shaped in a multitude of ways, all for the service of the computer. You will always serve the computer, you will help the computer replicate, you will keep the computer safe, you will help the computer reach other planets.Yeah kids, don't fuck with CRISPR, read The Revolutionary Phenotype instead.
>>3867272Ah, neat, an excuse to post this!
>>3867287would be a based parody dystopian novel. Mind if I steal your post as inspiration, anon? I won't promise to actually write it.
>>3867286>all the uplifted animals have partially digital brains which the state monitors for dangerous thoughts, based off the same tech used for androids>every single one can be controlled directly using access codes and kill words that only state agents knowThis isn't spec evo it's dystopian scifiThe only spec evo would all of humanity outside of the ruling caste being heavily domesticated. Gracile, pretty, child-like, friendly, and short lived.
>>3867293Sure, that would be great actually.But as I said, the original idea came from an actual scientific book, The Revolutionary Phenotype, the book talks more about how life transitioned from RNA to DNA, and expands a lot on the Selfish Gene theory but it talks a bit about a similar possible world ending scenario with CRISPR.The book and the information presented is top tier.Don't recommend reading anything else by the author tho, he might be a Post-doc from Duke University but he is also a MAJOR schizo.
>>3867286And not dystopian... and... you know what forget it.I just wanted cute anime pets. I JUST WANTED CUTE SQUISHY ANIME PETS /an/ WHY DO YOU DO THIS /an/?
>>3867299I JUST WANT TO BE THE ANIME GIRL SITTING IN THE BACKGROUND HEADPATTING A ROUND, FLYING BALL CREATURE WITH BIG EYES AND THEN IT FLOATS UP IN THE AIR FOR A BIT FOR SOME MILD VISUAL INTEREST WHILE TWO OTHER CHARACTERS TALK DURING A LOW-KEY CONVERSATIONAL SCENETHATS ALL I WANT IS THAT SO MUCH TO ASK?
>>3867298I read the book and it’s really good, some anon recommended it to meI know it received high praise from one big name in the evolutionary biology field (can’t remember who right now I’ll post it if I do)Dude’s crazy though that’s for sure I think he left academia and moved to the middle of nowhere in the northern area of Canada and he started living of the land and posting white supremacy videos on YouTube or some shit like thatI remember he was a semi-notable character in far-right YouTube before it all got nuked
>>3867302You're going to be the anime girl(male) and your only company will be equally sentient nonhumans. Your only available purposes in life will be creative management, labor supervision, maintenance, and equipment maintenance.
>>3867331F-fine. But the creature has to show up a lot and I have to be an important character. I won't ask for the MC role, but give me a secondary role.
>>3867381...I still want the main girl role, but I know you dystopian meanies won't give it to me.
>>3867383You're the childhood friend of the MC who is an angsty immortal android-wolf who has never had a girlfriend. Humans are accessory characters in this series since much of culture is now produced and dealt with by their companions, who are exempt from labor mandates.I call it "boku no my furfag dystopia no kyojin: daijobu honda subaru"
TFW Project Rose as of now rivals Blib in terms of scale
>>3867424What's Project Rose?
>>3867425https://m.youtube.com/channel/UC8bL-lETKMgWrTM-egjA_PQIMO rubiea is better thought
>>3867286>fuzzy plant that mimics more sentient behaviourActually, wait does that work? Its kinda weird and possibly cheating, but I am curious. Mildly disturbing and/or eventually boring as it might be, it does sound interesting.
>>3867399You forgot to add "eeeeehhhh?!" and more explanation points into the title.
>>3866788I never saw it as such, I see it as more of a cosmic horror
>>3867399>>3867791Here let me try:EEEEEHHHHH?!? Boku no Furfag?? Dystopia no Kyojin: Daijobu! Honda ga Subarushi Bihikuru That should get some attention and good SEO.
>>3867794See, the Japanese love puns and hate themselves, so what you do is you make a shitty pun on subarashi that some gaijin made up where the whole joke is just 'funny sound' + 'lol Japanese don't speak English but they make Subaru cars'. That should help them be suitably depressed and confused for the purpose of being marketed to and never getting into romantic or sexual relationships/encounters.
>>3867793I liked it much better from that lens than from a spec evo perspective. Though I also find the eventual human descendents resembling qu pretty boring; just because one can use symbolism doesn't mean one should, after all.
...I still want /se/ to tell me about the perfect, sentient, cute pet that doesn't replace humans and isnt smarter than a corvid or dolphin and all that though.
>>3867808Well intelligence isn't a one way road, its possible for a species to be smart enough to understand humans and all that, but just not have the behaviour needed to desire controlling humans or develop their own tech in secrets.
>>3868093Yeah, but they also have to be real low-maintenance. I don't want my pet breaking up with me or losing its job, you know?...Seems like such a strange clarification.
>>3868140Granted, I guess there could also be a benefit to a pet that can handle itself if someone genuinely is an asshole to other people or whatever, but I think that's clearly too complicated to select or engineer for.
>>3865894I wonder what would happen if modern humans somehow got in contact with the all tomorrows ”humans”
>>3868243>umans somehow got in contact with the all tomorrows ”humans”You just activated Godwin's law buddy.
>>3866982>Anything from Dawkins>Sharpen up understanding of anythingHis and his follower's output is essentially applying the genetic reductionist fallacy over and over again.The problem with past and contemporary works on evolution is that they inevitably attempt to impose some kind of overarching discernable rationality on a directionless process that is random mutations surviving for whatever historical reasons they did.Even Darwin's own theory of natural selection is a variant of Hegel's dialectic of history, which was all the rage in the 19th century despite being obviously false.
>>3868325When you try to sound smart but don’t understand the topic
Very excited to see what comes from this. Hamster's Paradise has always been bootleg Serina but introducing intrinsically sociopathic torture monsters as your primary sapient race is a pretty bold move.
Could enormous balls effectively help future humans, or posthumas, against a hotter environement as a transpiration surface?Asking for a friend
>>3868385It would need to get pretty hot for that to become necessary
>>3868385An enormous ballsack, not necessarily the balls too, but yeah.
>>3868385More likely we become less endothermic.
I working on setting for a Sword and Planet(kind off) campaign where some eldritch gods just came to earth from time to time and snatched a bunch of animals and plants and transplanted them another world(s) where they evolved separately, having to deal with different environment changes, different geological events and waves of new animals from earthAny tips for cool species to introduce in each wave with any potential and how the could evolve ?
SE Pitches?(1/2)>humans have a nuclear war that fucks over the Earth the hardest its ever been fucked since the permian-triassic event 250 mya>all land chordates (mammals, birds, reptiles, and amphibians) are wiped out by fallout>most marine chordates are also fucked hard except for some deep dwelling species which would be unaffected by radiation>land and sea arthropods are much less severely affected>fast forward 25 million years >due to lack of vertebrate predators, land arthropods evolve to grow to enormous proportions, so enormous as to make the carboniferous gigantism look like ants by comparison. >they also evolve new special "zipper" exoskeletons that remove size constraints set by molting that previously limited the largest arthropods to 2m>oxygen content is also the highest its ever been in Earth's history>insects resemble supersized versions of mostly familiar forms from our times>beetles become herding grazers ranging from the size of a mouse to the size of a bison, with the larger ones discarding the ability to fly>ants and wasps become ground and aerial pack hunting predators, respectively>flying insects diversify into innumerable predatory and herbivorous niches >mantis become solitary apex predators
(2/2)>myriads (centipedes and millipedes), likewise don't change much for their size, but some predatory centipedes can grow large enough to rival the giant mantids>some become terrifying tree dwelling hunters that snatch unwary prey from above >land crustaceans consist of descendants of woodlouse and newly evolved fully land dwelling air breathing crabs that need no access to a body of water other than to drink>mostly scavengers and herbivores with some crabs becoming burrowing ambush predators >marine crustaceans explode in diversity replacing cetaceans and most of the roles held by fish and sharks, with the largest animal on earth at the time and the largest ever arthropod being the 26 meter pelagic, filter feeding Whale Shrimp>arachnids take unexpected turns in evolution with scorpions strangely evolving into colossal lumbering herbivores that lose their stingers, some becoming the largest animals on land at the time, growing up to 15 meters in length and 60 tonnes>some jumping spiders evolving powered flight with 2 of their 8 legs becoming large triangular wings and losing the ability to spin silk>the new "Flyders" become the most diverse aerial carnivores>all lineages of land dwelling gastropod mollusks are wiped out, however in a big twist a lineage of marine, conch-like shelless gastropods evolve the ability to live on land indefinitely, breath air, replace their foot with 8 muscular pseudopods like a velvet worm, and even warm blooded thermoregulation very similar to that of the late mammals>these new "slug lizards" begin to radiate into remarkably vertebrate-like diversity>marine cephalopods also experience a new renaissance with some becoming giant filter feeders accompanying the whale shrimp
>>3868814>>3868816This is implying that every single arthropod on earth evolves the "zipper" exoskeleton (how would that work anyways?) At the same time yet independently, which is clearly impossibleStill, an invertebrate-only post apocalyptic world is an intriguing idea, even if it could ultimately be limited in scope
>>3868814Ok, the main obstacle you have to surpass in this scenario is oxygen.Even if your Earth has the highest oxygen concentration in history that doesn't change the fact that diffusion wouldn't be enough to keep an insect the size of a bison alive. Higher concentrations will help them but the size of a cat might be stretching it. Your insects would need to evolve much more complex breathing and circulatory systems first and that would allow them to grow.It can't happen the other way, you can't grow and then evolve better breathing systems out of necessity.There's a reason why terrestrial mammals who go back to the sea can get absurd sizes. They already have an insanely effective breathing and circulatory system, so they are not limited by that factor in growth.Evolution will never allow a fish to get the size of a blue whale, whale sharks are already very close to the efficiency limit of gills and the way evolution works is much easier to just be smaller than to develop an entirely new breathing system.So first find a way for your insects to develop a better breathing and circulation method, now they can grow.Again, you need to hijack a previously existing system that developed for other purpose.See my other posts>>3867077>>3867090>>3867239To understand more about how to avoid Lamarckism.
>>3868844Another two important obstacles:Heat regulation and Structural IntegrityAs an insect you can get away with almost anything structural and heat wise because you are so small, as you get bigger you need more complex structures.Inside bones are better than exoskeletons structurally. As you get bigger your exoskeletons would have to get thicker and thicker and since they are covering the outside they are working against your insects getting oxygen and regulating their own temperature.Again, you won't evolve better structures or heat regulating mechanisms if you grow more because evolution will make you simply grow less rather than do massive structural changes.You need to first evolve something for other purpose that by chance, also helps you regulate heat or keep structural integrity if you get bigger.
>>3868852The key to thinking in evolutionary terms is to always keep this in mind:> Evolution works in very gradual changes.> A change will only set you up in a given path if even a very small change gives you an advantage over the individuals that don't have it. (For example, a creature's arms will keep getting longer only if even a very, very small increase in arm length means an advantage)> Big structural or systemic changes can only come from hijacking a system that gradually evolved for other purpose and just so happens to be useful for something else.> Just because some adaptation would be useful doesn't mean you will get it if you can survive the same with something easier (For example being smaller instead of evolving a new way to support your weight)> Evolving to produce signals only work if there is someone who can interpret them, never the other way around. Colors and light only evolve if others have eyes, Sound production only evolves if others have hearing, pheromones only evolve if others have smell, etc. As some signals are also physical phenomena (light, sound), your creatures can evolve some receptors to interpret the world they are in, if that gives them an advantage. > An adaptation can give you a big negative if that same adaptation gives you a bigger positive. (An adaptation that greatly increases your reproduction rate and your offspring chances of survival will be successful even if that same adaptation shortens your life span by 75% and kills you in a horrific way, for example a horn that helps you fend off predators and compete with other males but eventually grows so much that it pierces your own skull and kills you)
Fuck you guys.My fire breathing dragon is a legitimate possibility.
>>3868918It could actually be.Just take something like the Bombardier Beetle and take it to the extreme, the mixture of chemicals not only gets very hot but actually burn.You are gonna need to think why they don't drive themselves to extinction through destruction of their own habitat. It's not like they are gonna stop the forest fires they will be causing.Also, the evolutionary path is not very clear.
>>3868918>All members of this genus have a unique defense mechanism: the ability to squirt a harmless, foul-smelling fluid from their tails, which can create a highly flammable substance when mixed with ammonia.Now figure out a plausible way for them to ignite it themselves
>>3868933REEEEEEEEEEELamarckism again, just because the substance can ignite when mixed with ammonia it doesn't mean it has a reason to evolve complex mechanisms to handle fire.It should be:> Foul-smelling fluid> Foul-smelling hot fluid by chance has a slow exothermic reaction, the fluid gets very hot but it takes some time> Evolutionary pressure to make it take less and less time> Eventually Bombardier Beetle like > There is an evolutionary pressure for making the fluid hotter> Eventually they are throwing literal chemical fire
>>3868933>>3868936We should introduce them into California.
>>3868928>It's not like they are gonna stop the forest fires they will be causing.they live in either the swamps, which are very wet, or deserts/tundras which don't have much to burn
>>3868962>> There is an evolutionary pressure for making the fluid hotter>evolutionary army race with original predator before dragons became big enough>or army race against prey once mecanism is cooptade for hunting>or army race among themselves due intra-especific copetition>or all three
>>3868978Aside from defense the creature hunts burrowing critters by throwing hot chemicals into their hideouts and overheating them to make them run.Their preys start to evolve burrows that can take the heat.Eventually it gets to the point the dragons have evolved to hit the borrowing critters with chemical fire to exhaust the oxygen in the burrow, overheat it and fill it with toxic gases.
>>3868983Also the creatures males have evolved to avoid males at all costs since confrontations end with both of them dead almost every time.
>>3868986Since their hunting method favors pack hunting (one dragon throws fire in the burrow, the others cover the exits and catch the escaping animals), but males are so territorial and dangerous they evolve a harem system with one male and many females covering a large territory.Also unsuccessful males evolve to adopt female characteristics if unable to get a pack of females. They infiltrate successful male's packs and sneakily fuck the females.
>>3868844The obvious solution is to evolve a way to force air in and out of the spiracles.
>>3867077>If you want your rogue planet to have bioluminescence you better come up with a good explanation why eyes evolved in the first place.Personally I would go with the planet having already had multicellular life when it got ejected from its system and the bioluminescence having been a trait that few species already had at that point. Then again that wouldn't be "what if life evolved on a rogue planet"-scenario but rather "how life would adapt to its planet going rogue".
>>3869391Getting ejected from your star is too fast of an event for life to adapt.I don’t see anything other than microscopic life surviving.
my fav Man After Man is becoming more well known via association with All Tomorrows, this has been a good month for me lads
>>3866982Most specevo nerds are on the intellectual and literacy level of 12-year-old "objectivists", "rationalists" and the "brights" from 2008.>>3868340Are you confused by the big words?
>>3867798>just because one can use symbolism doesn't mean one should, after all.What?
>>3865894I speculate that white women will evolve longer and wider more cavernous vaginas to accommodate dog knots
>>3869582Looks cool but why did it lose its legs
>>3869583Lord, what has speculative science done?
>>3869422Imfao> "The problem with past and contemporary works on evolution is that they inevitably attempt to impose some kind of overarching discernable (sic) rationality on a directionless process that is random mutations surviving for whatever historical reasons they did."> "Even Darwin's own theory of natural selection is a variant of Hegel's dialectic of history, which was all the rage in the 19th century despite being obviously false."You are either trying hard to bait or a very good example of the Dunning–Kruger effect.
There's a lot of autism going on ITT.
>>3869608What else do you expect from people who try to give monster drawings "scientific" backstories lol
>>3869614The autism is coming from people complaining about that.
>>3869584climbing up the top sails
>>3869634Based, I get it...
>>3866788all i see is either we end up becoming body horror galore or androgynous freaks
W E A P O N I Z E D S N E E Z I N G
>>3867287>Women start modifying themselves and their kids because they can't compete>he thinks women wouldn't create their own genetically modified men and quarantine the cat girl crowd to a small island in the pacific
>>3867291you know, instead of manufacturing real (tm) girls we should be growing them
>>3868355Reminds me of that Monsters episode about the super smart rats that break free of their lab and start killing people. Also Rats: Night of Terror, good flick. Neither is spec Evo but I feel people may enjoyhttps://youtu.be/XONumSxFHNEhttps://youtu.be/8aW2EwaRzvQ
>>3868385Eh... More likely fat people die off which results in fat promoting genes being selected again. Big balls is really a thing for reproducing and so far we don't have major selection pressures that choose for something like that.
>>3868814>someone goes back in time a la Sound of Thunder and leaves a band of humans plus some modern tech in the prehistoric era>the world becomes a real life Flintstones but with a mix of stonepunk, modern tech and some other shit>fast forward through each era until modern day and beyondWhat happens? Do humans evolve? Do dinosaurs? What happens with birds, mammals and everything else? Ignore the paradoxes. Let's say this just creates an alt timeline.
>>3869422>Most specevo nerds are on the intellectual and literacy level of 12-year-old "objectivists", "rationalists" and the "brights" from 2008.I've always loved this shit and was excited to see it blow up over the last few months. Then I was recommended a YouTube video on the "spec evo iceberg" narrated by a literal child and I don't know what to think. And no not linking bc I'm an asshole and don't want that kid gaining views. I'm a elitist scumbag and don't care.
Any anons itt that participated on nispe?What do you think about it?
>>3869786I really enjoy it and the op of those threads gets better as time goes on. I'm looking forward to thread 3.
>>3865894Ah fuck I didnt see this thread and I posted all my favorite pieces in >>3866903
>>3869600>>3869613That retard must have been on to something if he hit this close.>>3869767>>3868355Give up all hope. The scene is going to get flooded by normies who will take the stupidest, dinosauroid-tier laughable excesses to the extreme because it is only the stupid that they can understand and contribute to.
>>3866788I find it to be really sad mostly. Im very surprised to see how popular it's become online.
>>3869870>Give up all hope. The scene is going to get flooded by normies who will take the stupidest, dinosauroid-tier laughable excesses to the extreme because it is only the stupid that they can understand and contribute to.It always happens man. Fuck normies so hard.
Thoughts on speculative domestication?>The North American house hippo, Hippopotamus gaianadvanticus domesticus, is a miniaturized, genetically-engineered form of domesticated hippopotamus that is commonly kept as an indoor companion animal in the Terra Metropolitan world. They are one of many unique and unusual organisms produced in the middle 2100's as novelty pets and remain popular to this day throughout the world due to their peaceful temperament, non-destructive nature and relative ease of care. First originating from suppliers in Canada and the Eastern United States, they are today found worldwide.https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/conceptual_evolution/terra-metropolis-t2424-s110.html
>>3868814>>3868816Im very into this idea anon, mostly for the dino-crabs. Imagine a herd of crabs grazing on som savannah somewhere. Would some of them just wear the irradiated ruins of cars as shells?
>>3869879Presumably they bred out the poo-flicking behaviour?https://youtu.be/Nw5GVLbZzs0
>>3869890Maybe that comes with house training them? Although this is 2100, so it's just as possible they did breed out the poo territory marking. What animal do you want to domesticate anon? Ever since I learned about midget elephants, I've wanted one as a pet.
>>3869892The mini hippo is adorable, so that, I suppose. Although a domesticated bear would be pretty good; they're so cuddly!
>>3869926>mini bearDude that would be great. Bear cubs are cute as hell as they are. Having a forever bear cub would be heavenly.
>>3869879Oh shit, is this what all the oldfags are going to talk now that normies are taking over the specevo scene? I'm down. I remember having a dream about an alt reality where humans domesticated weasels and their kin as our cat replacements. Was max comfy
>>3869963have you ever heard of ferrets?
>>3869892An alternate timeline where dwarf elephants never went extinct and successfully domesticated sounds like an interesting stuff to me
>>3869985Yes but in my dream they fully replace cats. So there's long haired, floppy eared, hairless, big ass Maine coon style... And that universe's cats are just this annoying ass pest species/novelty pet most people hunt for fur or own to be "unique"
>>3869988Imagine how much you'd have to scoop up after it.
>>3868814>>due to lack of vertebrate predators, land arthropods evolve to grow to enormous proportions, so enormous as to make the carboniferous gigantism look like ants by comparison.This here is the biggest problem, arthropods have a really shitty respiration system that prevents them from growing very large, as they simply cannot supply oxygen to the entire body.
>>3870045This. Arthropods already had plenty of time on land, they would have gotten bigger if they could have. They needed a mutation that happened to let them get bigger first.
>>3869767>>3869870>>3869875Stop complaining, spec evo requires a certain kind of autism that the average normie simply doesn't have. They'll read All Tommorrows and Man After Man, come up with some dumb OC donut steel human descendant, and then move onto the next fad.
Help me out here.How the fuck did Thalassocnus happen?
>>3870134Even modern sloths are very good swimmers.It shouldn't be hard to figure out.
>>3870134A few ancient sloths species were semi-aquatic. Watched a video lately about what they think happened to a massive group of fossils that died all in one spot. Basically they lived like hippos... and ended up dying by not leaving the drying waterhole until it became nothing but mud and shit.
>>3870116eh, gotta be honest, thats definetly some of the worst speco evo has to offer ("muh wAcKy Q" / the inherent problems with human spec evo, namely that social/technological change wildly outpaces evolution and by any reasonable metric evolution would barely be involved unless its in a The Revolutionary Phenotype-esque sense) but its not that bad, it basically captures the spirit. Human derivatives/parasites are cool and semi-plausible evolutionarily if you gloss over some stuff, fuck it, its fiction.
>>3870278human spec evo turns into a shitshow because it's impossible to be objective about humans and the course of their future development
>>3869640what is the *proof* for either assertion?
>>3870310Not like the rest of spec evo genres are that less of a shot in the dark, retard kun
>>3869988It honestly sounds like paradise to me. Elephants are my favorite animals, so being able to care for one to the best of my ability would be a joy. Having them be small would ensure their safety aswell. >>3870026It would be worth it to wake up to tiny *PROOT*s
>>3869963>>3870002This sounds badass
>>3870134Sloths are criminally underrated anon. >starts out as one of the American megafauna>just as humans settle across the new world for the first time, they started adapting into other niches>they manage to outlive 90 percent of their ice age peers>now all they do is eat leaves and flowers aswell as antsAlso, bumping with a silky anteater. Proof of based sloth master race.
>>3870313Read “The Revolutionary Phenotype”
>>3870278>>3870310I think the problem with most human focused spec evo projects is that people are generally divided in their view of the species. You're either very proud of being apart of the species which conquered the planet, or see yourself as part of a mindless disease killing the planet. So when you approach a spec evo project with either extreme in mind, you're going to end up with wildly biased results. Honestly I'd like to see a human spec evo project that aims for a comfortable midpoint between the two. Somewhere between warhammer and all tomorrows, that ends on a bittersweet note.
>>3870278>>3870310Human spec evo turns into a shitshow because it’s impossible to talk about humans objectively in this day and age.Ffs even in fantasy settings the Normies are crying because “nooooo, orcs can’t be an evil raceeee, that’s raciiiist”.Imagine what would happen when you try to explain why a given subspecies of your spec evo humans commits 55% of the crime despite being 13% of the population.
What's an animal you guys want to see a spec evo project based on? I've always wanted to see more spec evo works focused on horses. I'm genuinely surprised a literal "sea horse" has yet to manifest. On an entirely different note, I really wish South America was an island continent like Australia. Things would be so much cooler if we still had rodent megafauna around.
>>3870466Yeah pretty much this too, because the political divide is so extreme these days it literally affects everything.
>>3870476I would like to see a speculative recolonization of antarctica.Since it's pretty much a blank slate down there if you melt the ice caps then you can do almost anything you want with what flora and fauna find their way there and what path they take once they do.
>>3870518I toyed around with the idea sometime ago. My idea was that the entire continent would become home to the descendants of penguins and seals.
>>3870531While they certainly would be present, I doubt penguins or seals would dominate. Other sea birds would be the ones to colonize the majority of the inlands, not to mention bats would also get there too.But thats putting the cart before the horse, you can't colonize the continent if theres nothing to eat there. What kind of plants would make their way to antarctica?
>>3867090You have to stop saying 'shitty'
>>3867077An explanation for bioluminescence could be that the chemicals the creatures use to create pheromones are the same ones that create bioluminescence They just don’t know they’re glowing because they’re all blindSo if an invasive predator found them from another world (us) they would be fucked
>>3870534Grass. They were already present on the nearby islands on Antarctic Peninsula and it probably won't take too long for them to start spreading into the continent once the ice caps there fully melted.
All of evolution is speculative, because none of it makes sense to begin with. It's an outdated theory which still tricks smooth-brains like yourselves.
>>3870625Damn, tell us your theory then
>>3870626Everything was designed specifically with purpose and function.
>>3870134The real question is how the fuck did echidnas happen? They are basically terrestrial playpuses with spikes.
>>3870534Whichever plants are in patagonia, I guess. Lots of coniferous trees, shrubs, hardy grasses and flowers
>>3869879>Some of the most unique creatures of the far future are the small, gliding arboreal felids known as whillawhispers, which haunt the ledges of city high rises and park trees alike after dark, leaping with grace from perch to perch in pursuit of small vermin above the hustle and bustle of life many stories below.
>>3870634Keked.Now tell us what you really believe.
>>3870656Why just patagonia? Why not south africa, australia or new zealand? Most plants are going to be carried over by birds so the colonized flora could be quite diverse.
>>3870741not that Anon, but I imagine that early pos-melting antartica would have a climate more similar to patagonia than the other nearby regions and also because patagonia is closer than the rest, giving it's flora an advantage to reach antartica first
>>3870140They're really not much better than nearly any other vertebrate. Even tarantulas have been observed crossing streams.
>>3870747Well, new zealand would also have a similar climate to a melted antarctica. Not only that but modern new zealand is dominated by nothofagus trees, which are well adapted to a cold climate and used to dominate antarctica before it iced over. I think new zealand is a better candidate.
I’ve been wondering If vertebrates never evolved or died out early on in the Paleozoic, what would the dominate life forms be on the land and sea? Arthropods?Cephalopods?
Could birds (re)evolve their wings into droaeosaurs like arms ?
Bats, Lemurs, and Sloths are some of the most based mammals that have ever lived. How one species could so wildly adapt and evolve is truly incredible.
>>3870768Cephalopods would keep their niches, though I'd see the loss of their shells would still happen, and maybe there'd be a few more that internalize those shells and become more fish like. Insects would be dominant during the Carboniferous period, and maybe we could see squids make it onto land as this reality's amphibians. (no land tentacles, but actual limbs, sideways facing jaws, and maybe some sort of secondary support structure.)
>>3870770Yes, the easiest way would be starting with a neotenic hoatzin(pic related) and have them radiate into niches where their claws would be useful and positive selected
>>3870770>>3870786here one of their clawed chicks
>>3870770I remember seeing couple theories about terror birds having done something like that with them having one fingered hands with stabbing claws back during late 90s but I am pretty sure that by this point it has been pretty thoroughly debunked. Then again Hoatzins have clawed wings in their youth so a close relative/descendant that maintains those claws even in adulthood shouldn't be impossible: like have a population of hoatzin get stuck on an island with no mammals on it and it shouldn't be impossible for them to become flightless, keep their wing claws longer (or permanently) and start re-adapting them into hands. Or they could go full kiwi and just lose their wings completely.
>>3870784Dougal Dixon and Satoshi Kawasaki have both played around with the notion of terrestrial cephalopods. It's one of those spec evo notions Im always fascinated by.
>>3870786>>3870788>>3870789reminder that hoatzin are not rare to have claws as young birds, many birds have claws during development.
>>3870768imo it would be an arthropod world from the beginning to the end. Cephalopods don't have good chances to becoming terrestrial imo, but I could definitely see something like crustaceans being able to form pillar-legs and more efficient breathing appartuses.
>>3870790I was thinking more like this... forgive me.
>>3870790>>3870858Why would a cephalopod develop the same way tetrapods did?
>>3870868Eh, I was thinking along the lines of convergent evolution, and how an "amphibious cuttlefish" might simplify it's body plan. tl:dr I'm lazy.
>>3868844Uh, there have been fish as large as a blue whalehttps://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leedsichthys.
>>3870883Yeah, you diagnosed the issue quick, no hate for somebody just throwing ideas out. I do like the idea of cephalopods becoming terrestrial of course, it's just hard to justify.
>>3870890Leedsichthys was huge, but nowhere near as big as a blue whale.
>almost devoid of large land predators, the only things that come close are dingos and goannas>extremely rich in large land herbivores, mostly feral and introduced, but the native ones like kangaroos and emus also prosper>already existing reports of cats exceeding 1.5 m and 25 kg, at least one with a confirmed carcass, many get mistaken for panthersWhat are the chances that in the next million years or so cats in Australia evolve to be as large at least as a lynx, if not as a leopard or even a lion? Arguably, the question extends to New Zealand and other islands as well.
>>3870957very likely, also I thing they could get that size in few thousand years, if not less (assuming they remain unchecked buy us and no other competitors comes in the scene)
>>3870957How the fucks the cat gonna get to NZ? i thought they shot that bullshit proposal down, same with wanting to introduce wolves to the island. And wasn't the problem supposed to be feral sheep/goats or something? God damn, NZ, go pick up a surplus nugget and plink a few,then you can have a barbeque or something instead of introducing a predator to your ecosystem that you'll turn around and begin to regret when it begins killing off your sheep herd. Then they'll bitch they have a big cat/wolf problem.
>>3870957Lots of current species are projected to become larger. I've heard speculation about orcas becoming livyatan sized and white sharks also beefing up to quite a bit larger than they are at present, if left unchecked.
>>3870977>How the fucks the cat gonna get to NZ?Pretty sure that NZ already has a feral cat population.
>>3870985> feral cat> big catThese are not the same cats anon. You know better...
>>3870986As far as I know the idea originally was about feral cats in NZ and Australia getting bigger and taking up the roles that lynxes, pumas, jaguars, etc. have on other continents.
Imagine a world with sea slugs taking the role of fish.
>>3870987I doubt that will happen. Highly doubt that. If it would, what's the reason they haven't already done the same things in other parts of the world.> predators Australia has a FUCK TON of predators that cats will instantly get btfo'd by. NZ, not so much, but thank goodness for birds of prey and good old fashioned drunken cat kicking.
>>3870986Read the post again, nowhere I implied pantherine cats as the starting point in Aus or NZ, the idea was domestic cats eventually evolving to become as large as them. If you think about it, human intervention has left in Australia a faunal assemblage very similar to India, so the conditions are ripe for a panther equivalent to emerge from feral cats which at least in Aus are already getting damn large.
>>3870890Leedsichthys was even if we are going by the largest estimates, about a third of the mass of a blue whale.Blue whales are the largest animals we have a record of ever existing. They dwarf any dinosaur.Think about that.
>>3870996>I doubt that will happen. Highly doubt that. If it would, what's the reason they haven't already done the same things in other parts of the world.competition from other predators in the same niche?
>>3870996>what's the reason they haven't already done the same things in other parts of the worldthey did, way do you think the niche of apex predator in most continents was taken by big cats ?
>>3870996>If it would, what's the reason they haven't already done the same things in other parts of the world.How do you think pantherine cats came into existence? And they're not even the only large cats in the world, for example the puma is not pantherine and is more closely related to domestic cats than lions.Pic related is the confirmed carcass that I was talking about, I mention it because of its exceptional size and DNA tests confirming it is a domestic cat. A dingo or an eagle is not going to bother that thing. A goanna is just too slow, and may not always live in the same range (most of these sightings are from Victoria). Now, imagine if this thing lived long enough to pass its genes. And it isn't even the only one. Imagine a few dozens or so of cats or so of this size passing their genes.https://scienceblogs.com/tetrapodzoology/2007/03/04/australias-new-feral-mega-cats
>>3870996>Australia has a FUCK TON of predators that cats will instantly get btfo'd by.So do (or did) all of the places that wildcats are native to. Wolves coexist with bobcats, lynxes, and cougars.
>>3869422>>3868325Just come to terms with the fact that, although a really shitty philosopher, Dawkins is a good biologistJust because he's an extremely caricatural radical atheist and you aren't doesn't mean you should blindly reject everything he saysHe simply has an area of expertise (evolution) and because of his fame fell into the classical the trap of thinking himself competent in philosophy as well.
>>3871067This.Dawkins, the second brightest biologist alive.Also, Dawkins, one of the cringiest mf talking about philosophy in the mainstream.
>>3871068who's the brightest
>>3871070J. F. Gariepy, ironically another example of someone being one cringy mf outside his field. (And not a very nice human being in general).However his book "The Revolutionary Phenotype", really takes Dawkins theory and takes it to the next level. Top tier.The book has been mentioned multiple times already ITT.If you have not read it I quite recommend it.
>>3871067What has Dawkins gotten wrong philosophically?
>>3871166>There's literally nothing someone won't turn into an anime waifu>still no QT After Man girls>no nightstalker gfLife is pain
>>3871255The Japs have done it (they love After Man)
>>3870531>>3870518Based. I've been working on a project with this very idea. All species are descended from aquatic of flying ancestors. Seal and penguin descendants are plentiful. Terrestrial bats form another dominant group
>>3871257Likewise, though in my version Antarctica never froze over, so its home to Notoungulates/Litopterns, Marsupials, Giant flightless birds and a surviving brachyopoid temnospondyl
>>3871016>the niche of apex predator in most continents was taken by big cats ?Australia is basically the only continent that is naturally without a feline apex predator and even that is only due to how fucking isolated it is.>europe used to have both tigers and lions in parts of it but both are now extinct due to humans >asia has tigers, lions, and leopards>north and south americas have cougars and jaguars>africa has lions and leopards
https://youtu.be/mnxxRRJnGG0New All Tomorrows 3D featuring the Lopsiders
>>3866650At least something good came out of this flood of normalshitters finding out about All Tomorrows
I've asked this before but some shit still doesn't add up:What exactly is the mechanism in which lifeforms evolve bioluminescence? What is the purpose?From personal experience, I had a very clear memory from when I was 4 years old when my parents rented out a cabin in upstate where there were these weird glowing green mushrooms in the woods at night. I thought it was just a fever dream until I randomly stumbled upon the wiki link and damn near shit my pants:>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxfire
>>3871526Well, the purpose is sending a visual signal. What that signal is for changes species to species, it might be used to attract prey or a sexual partner, bacteria use it as a signal of how big their population is to regulate gene expression.There are some species like fungi which we have little idea of what they use bioluminescence for.As for how it evolves, bioluminescence is universally an oxidation reaction of a chemical. It probably arises as an accidental sub-product of some other chemical processes used for something else and then the creature finds it evolutionary useful.Many bioluminescent creatures are not bioluminescent themselves but live in symbiotic relationships with bioluminescent microorganisms.
>>3871526Read>>3867090>>3867077Most complex systems in evolution are something you accidentally stumble your way into as a byproduct of something else and go from there.It’s not like lifeforms gradually evolved bioluminescence from zero.At some point some life form was able to produce light as a byproduct of some other things and it simply kept evolving from there.
>>3871259>temnospondylDidn't they go extinct way before antarctica froze over?
>>3871573Yup, they dropped off face of the back when dinosaurs were still the hottest shit on Earth.
>>3870996Australia doesn’t have any predators, all the native ones got BTFO’d by placentals
>>3870996>FUCK TON of predatorsLmfaoName three Australian predators capable of taking down a catInb4 Thylacine
New All Tomorrow's kinohttps://youtu.be/mnxxRRJnGG0
>>3871702>CrocodileThey only live in coastal regions in the north, a cat living inland or in the southern coast will never encounter one. They are also only dangerous near river shores.>Wild dogsSomewhat effective, but they are rarer south of the dingo fence. But again, they aren't going to bother with the largest cats unless desperate. >AbbosLmao
I’m sure this scenarios been done to death by now but I’m still interested. I’m working on creating an earth like world orbiting a red dwarf star. So it’s tidally locked, and just close enough to be habitable but with a strong enough magnetic shield to stave off the frequent solar storms. I’m going with the main belief that the twilight belt in the middle of the planet is most habitable and gradually grows more inhospitable the further to the light and dark sides you go. I know there’s still some doubt if these places would even be sustainable for complex life but let’s just go with it for now. What kind of biomes and plant and animal life forms would likely evolve on this world? On all three parts and on land and sea? One final minor note is that I was planning on setting this world in the very very distant future. Like so far in that the only stars are red and white dwarfs.
any projects on alternative continental positions ?
>>3871690I agree with you, but most venomous snakes will btfo a feral cat. Goannas too. But Cats are gonna take up predatory niches faster than them, I'd say.
>>3871774look at project rose for inspiration
>>3871717the beach setting is pretty inspiring even though the regular looking plants and stuff don't really make sense in context to the lopsiders. I still like the models and animations this person's been making though
>>3871259Very cool anon. Care to share some more? Would be fun to compare projects
I'm trying to think through this on my own if anything would change if we could upload our DNA. I don't know much about genetics or what is or isn't possible for them, so if there are corrections someone more knowledgeable might be able to make, I'll probably welcome that...>Pass whatever amount of time needed and assume we survive and prosper and tech continues to develop etc.>It has been quite some time since humanity has figured out how to upload their genetic shit to cloud servers and have a connected device recreate them. If a person dies, they are remade. We can't use this technology to make "new" humans usually without some sort of process involved and having population control in place. We have very good security and while hacks to steal people's genes or whatever are not unknown, mass hacks are, we assume, impossible or incredibly rare and not enough to cause significant problems besides the need to protect one's code>we have the ability to manipulate genes and improve ourselves. Our genes will continue to be modified and improved indefinitely.>because people enjoy sex so much and likely want to experience it if they are not so sexual, human copulation does not die off. Traditional reproduction, however, might.>Over time, we become by modern standards, bizarre creatures with deformed bodies and so on. Our minds are not as strong on their own, but decisions are made through a combination of human brain and computers, taking much process out of the brain. We begin a genetic co-dependency on tech. >Our mental process is now about efficiently organizing info from tech>Despite being mostly vestigial, our bodies are made easier to augment with technology and we all become very, very kinky. Our sex organs become larger, we develop features exclusive to non-reproductive mating, we become bisexual, sterile and disease resistant. We grow many appendages and strange traits for the sole purpose of entertainment. Everyone's genes are at least a little different.
>>3872497>Certain regulations, by the way, mean that changes can be made all at once. I'll just fucking call it "evolution regulation". This is done out of fear of what might transpire if we are not cautious as well as the desire to keep basic human morality etc. intact.>Slowly, the idea of eugenics emerges under a different light. Maybe some ideological wars are fought under a radically shifted paradigm of morality where things such as what it means to be intelligent and the choice to be intelligent, as well as if it is a choice at all, is fiercely debated and probably at times with arms.>hands become more capable of typing, arthritis is eliminated,>Human curiosity and the desire for aesthetics and complexity/entertainment under continuously changing modes of thought lead to us becoming nothing like our former selves, but rather strange lumps of multicolor flesh with many limbs and genital orifices.
>>3872501>There would probably be several popular models. Perhaps one could take over most or all of them, though, since augmentation is important. Most likely, I would say there is one very popular "model" of humanity, several less but still big models, and some fringe models. I think this would most likely be about the same as with phones, computers, or browsers. Actually probably closer to browsers; Two very popular choices, three to five fairly well-known choices, and some more fringe and sub-culture choices
>>3872504>Geneticists and technicians take over the Olympic games.>Sports exclusive to certain human forms (or augmentations of certain human forms) develop. They may or may not become less exclusive to those forms. >Tech and software starts being called and/or seen as augmentation regardless of whether it is technically attached to a person because with the new human brain etc, that's basically what it is in all instances.>Augmentation compatibility with certain genetic codes becomes a household topic
>>3872507>Eventually, however, genetics become less important as we develop better augmentation and adaption to augmentation is perfected. The human body is like wallpaper not often seen, though still slightly important for small windows of time when one is not augmented, such as when they die and are remade or re-make their genetic code. We have robo-penises and shit now. Humans slowly transition into cyborgs, starting as just phones, computers, AR glasses, etc, and becoming more and more entwined with our bodies as we start trying to fit them in better and start developing things to augment human strength and so on. >Eventually, human beings are so close to cyborgs, its hard to say we are not robots; many of our parts are swappable. We no longer fear the teleportation paradox. Death also becomes easy to accept, as basically everyone gets the Alduous Huxley treatment when they start "dying" (or what people like to think happened to Huxley when he got injected with LSD as he was dying. I don't fucking know) and if there are no other issues, they are reborn.>The tech cloud begins to be seen like a family to us all, though it generally does not make decisions on its own. It becomes seen almost like a combination of Yggdrasil and Gaea. Governments adapt to this...
>>3872516Fuck, I should stop making these all as separate posts. This is the last one for now; I have shit to do.>Besides humans, some of nature also follows suit. Maybe not all of it, but at least some of it. Farm animals like cows, companion or work animals like dogs and cats, these start getting modded too, as do fruits and veggies. The ones used as food or to produce food don't look weird or as weird, but we would definitely see some interesting pet birds, dogs, cats, etc. and some interesting things with dolphins, crows, elephants, and so on.
what if we get giant bees that are as big as yuour head
>>3871573Koolasuchus survived until the early cretaceousAnother idea would be a giant surviving marine relative of Mourasuchus
>>3871774I can see most of the air currents being influenced by the day and night portions, so a lot of wobbling in the middle and constant "slow hurricanes" at both centers. If there are any mountain ranges in the twilight zone, moon(s) orbiting the planet, or volcanoes that could shake things up a bit.Just remember that just because it's a red dwarf doesn't mean the photosynthesizing life will be red. You need to consider how they go about the process and the contents of the atmosphere to. Also I can imagine a good chunk of minerals are deposited from the light side by seasonal sandstorms, and when enough warm air makes it to the night side that brings storms to the day side.
>>3872520This premise would make for an interesting sci fi story
How likely would be for eutherian mammals to (re)evolve oviparity ?
>>3871138Nothing I can think of. It helps that almost none of what he said is new.
>>3871138Being an athiest
>>3870790The suckers becoming hoof-like is just... weird. I don't know how to feel about that. I guess after millions of years they could get pretty far from their origin like this, but this design still seems a little too similar to current terrestrial animals. Is convergent evolution really that strong a force? What does this designed terrestrial cephalopod have for a niche? A grazer I guess? I feel like most cephalopods would just become opportunistic omnivores, and likely derive from an octopus that ventures onto land and finds an advantage there. But not using the arms to manipulate things is kind of strange too, don't you think?Sorry, this thing just really gets under my skin and is making me ask a lot of questions
>>3870993That was proposed in Future is Wild, actually. The design was a bit silly. I think they became too similar to fish, but I guess if gastropods are related to cuttlefish and squid it would make sense they could "head back that way" in their design. They filled the niche of what amounts to a parrotfish or one of those that can withstand jellyfish stings just to nip the tentacles for food, which is what they did.Personally I think they would just simply get larger and a little bulkier. Nudibranchs and sea angels in general have the most potential, but ultimately I think are already close enough to "fish" in a very broad sense. They'd just get a little more fishy in body plan without going full blown "look, it's a big boneless fish with six fins" like Future is Wild did it.
>>3871526I remember going for a night hike on Monteverde back in college. Shit was cool seeing the glowing fungus on literally everything, even random leaves. It was more mold-like in appearance when we saw it, but I remember rubbing it on our pants and gear to help us follow one another in the dark. Was fun.
>>3871774There's a somewhat decent Netflix series on spec evo that came out last year and they did a planet like this. IIRC it had some arthropod equivalent living in the hot light side eating smaller "insects," but it would go through a hormonal change into a slower form if it grew up on the dark side. The adults would climb a giant mountain range just along the twilight zone and spew out their eggs; where they landed affected their development.In case anyone else in the thread wants to watch it, it's worth a little bit of your time but like most of these types of shows they recycle CG footage and repeat themselves heavily so you only need a little bit from each ep to get the point. The wiki page below gives some basic info, but I'll recall for y'all what I remember:>High Gravity World: massive floating multi-winged pterodactyl/slug like creatures that fly due to being less dense than the air, born on ground but can never return or they'll die due to poor adaptation. Hunted by bug-like things that float up with gas filled balloons and then divebomb them like darts. Surface is also filled with Cronenberg creatures that just roll over their prey.>Tidal Lock Red Dwarf: Described above>Eden: A more "ideal" Earth. Has rabbit/bug like creatures that reproduce by spewing out worms that then fuse into mushrooms, kinda. Hunted by insect/monkey creatures that also get high off the mushrooms and feed the next generation of their prey. (I think? Don't remember this one as well, it's the worst one)>Super advanced civilization: generic af "aliens are so advanced they live in the Matrix and are taken care of by robots," but has some interesting Dyson sphere style tech they talk aboutThere. Saved you time unless you really want to watch it.https://speculativeevolution.fandom.com/wiki/Alien_Worlds
>>3871717Wasn't this planet high gravity? I guess the plants could manage, but they seem too tall. And what's with the sea cucumber? Or is that a baby? Actually, weren't the lopsiders kind of advanced? Wtf are they in a sandy cave and screaming like seals?
>>3872497ngl I skimmed most of what you wrote. but I think you nailed some accurate stuff. while there isn't a lot of selection pressure on humans anymore, what does and will exist is entirely self-wrought. I read somewhere that brain size is actually looking to decrease as we become more dependent on tech, basically domesticating ourselves. I could totally see things like endomorphs being bred out of the population too as food becomes scarcer (harder to fulfill calorie requirements) and health problems associated with being overweight start to cull people at younger and younger ages (as the age where people have children is rising, so there will be a lot of fat 20-somethings who never had kids dying off). Sexual selection may have some role to play too, but I doubt it since "there's someone for everyone" and the shit people say about "only Chads get laid" is only true with something like Tinder and, well, most of the world is still doing just fine without it.Beyond that, those are like.. the only two things I can see as possible futures for the species. I guess some of the stuff that also typically pops up (getting smaller, longer fingers, less sexual dimorphism, everyone is bisexual, no hair, etc.) could happen, but there's no real agent of pressure happening to push those in any one direction. You can still grow up and have kids without ever touching a keyboard, for example, so wtf would longer fingers be something that gets selected for in that scenario (especially when that's the factor everyone cites)?I guess one more thing is cancer and heart disease. I could see there being a heavy selection for those who are not genetically predisposed. Both are heavily environmental, but I could see both getting worse in the coming decades and medicine struggling to keep up. Yes, people "beat" cancer, but they still have stupid high chances of getting it again and passing it onto their kids. Environmental stuff is all behavioral too, which can be selected against
>>3873411On the "fat people dying out" thing I want to add a few of my rationales for this, since it's something I've thought about for a while. There's selection pressures for being more efficient at using calories and burning fat coming from multiple sides:>storing fat is an adaptation for insulation and long-term energy storage during periods of food scarcity, which makes sense for ancient man and was a trait that was selected for in many populations>modern world is chock full of cheap and high-calorie but nutrient poor food. all over the world people are becoming overweight due to overconsumption of calories due to an overabundance of this food and their body's natural inclination to pack that shit away as fat>this leads to health problems aplenty, which causes early death. being overweight affects nearly every organ system in a negative way and it is extremely difficult, esp as you age, to burn more calories than you consume. you are driven by hunger to fuel your massive body, and the brain becomes addicted to eating like a drug/emotional crutch>obesity affects reproduction. fat women have fewer successful births and can have many complications that affect them and the baby, such as gestational diabetes. fat men have less stamina in bed and it's physically harder to copulate. both sexes become less sexually attractive due to their weight (not counting fetish shit). >more children and young adults in more populations are becoming more fat at younger ages>as our climate shifts, the world will become harder to live in: hotter, wilder weather, and less food + water. who fares the worst in these situations? overweight people who lack mobility, need more calories, and struggle to exchange their body heat>all this means more fat people dying, and less reproducingWill this happen in a few generations? No. But it's a seriously possible future for the species. A silly one, I know, but I think fat people are on the endangered species list. I mean it too.
>>3872497>>3873411>>3873414Some serious misconceptions in these responses.First, humans are still evolving the same as any other creature on earth. The fact that we take longer to die doesn't change this at all. The driver of evolution is reproduction not lifespan and still some people die without kids or with just one kid (having one kid puts your genes below replacement rate) and some people are very evolutionarily successful and have seven kids.Also evolution doesn't have a purpose or goal if some trait is making you have more kids then it is being positively selected even if it makes you live less or have worse quality of life.On "fat people dying out", the evidence is against you. I have a very good study about what traits are being selected for and against in European populations, I can't find it right now because my computer files are a mess, but from the top of my head I remember this:> Obesity is being positively selected for in women> Smoking is being positively selected for in both men and women> Depression is being positively selected for (I don't remember if both in men and women)> Having kids before 25 years of age is being positively selected for, conversely waiting longer than that is being selected against. > Drug and Alcohol use is neutral and not strongly selected for or against.> Lower age of death is being positively selected for in both sexes> High IQ is strongly selected against.> Academic achievement is strongly selected against.> Anxiety is strongly selected against in men, I'm not sure but I think it's positively selected for in women.> Parkinson's disease is the trait most strongly selected against.
>>3873429Also if you start modifying your own genes you start a chain reaction of complex and interesting evolutionary mechanisms which basically fuck you up. What happens is basically that your new evolutionary pressures are no longer reproducing but having access to whatever it is that is modifying your genes. Basically the computer or whatever mechanism you are using to modify your genes would evolve into a Queen and humans would evolve into Sterile Workers at the service of the evolutionary needs of whatever is containing their genes, not themselves.Read The Revolutionary Phenotype for a much better and laid out explanation of this mechanism.
>>3873389Your analysis is pretty accurate. Eventually obligate carnivores could still deviate into omnivorous and then herbivorous niches, but that image in particular is an octopus ungulate, not a terrestrial octopus descendent.
>>3873389I wouldn't take satoshi kawasaki seriously to be fairFew creatures on his wiki even make sense in regards to spec evo, and all are either jokes or weird critters he thought would be cool to draw (case in point that creature)
>>3873709They all look more like Pokemon to me
>>3873429I understand the reproductive thing. I'll take the L, I just felt that fat people were having less kids. But the data you share if true... Fuck
>>3873429A lot of these correlate with the shifting demographics of Europe and the increase in young people dealing with mental health.
what about this body plan for a amphibious/terrestrial cephalopod ?
>>3873965Personally I think the eyestalks are unnecessary, but I think the rest of it is reasonable. Also if that's your artwork then it looks good, please post more.
>>3873429Based response. >>3873954Don't worry about it anon. Evolution is working way too slowly on human populations to matter relative to technology. I think a lot of human spec evo falls into the trap of assuming current technological conditions will be completely stagnant/are the same forever. Fairly obvious but imo at the rate genetic engineering/aesthetic surgery/our understanding of intelligence is progressing (and frankly, if its progressing at all) we'll be able to select for or create the traits we want way, way before evolution would come into effect, at which point all the conventionally desired human traits will become the norm. Even if those technologies are restricted:A) technologies without ethical questions or change in legislation will occur before evolutionarily-significant timescalesB) a race to the bottom (some 3rd world country legalizes the tech, drawing a bunch of rich people who want pretty kids, giving the boom to the economy, other countries follow suit, soon its basically trivial to get the service and 1st world countries don't bother restricting it)The only way evolution will act upon humans is if we all get nuked back to the stone age where we're relying more on the basic tools of our biology than anything else. Now, this next bit I'm not entirely sure on, but I'd argue that maybe humans wouldn't ever hit the endgame of Revolutionary Phenotype-esque DNA-storage (as described in this post >>3873432) because we'd just develop the technology to become completely digital/mindupload faster than it would take for the DNA-cloud storage to be an evolutionary fixture. That said, this type of improvement is by its nature very hard to predict and kind of just fades into the boring "genius superintelligence" trope (because you can't actually describe what the endgame looks like without being smarter than any human) so I kind understand if people just choose to ignore it. I wish I knew a good solution besides that but eh.
any ideas with echinoderms ? they seem like such an underused and underappreciated clade
>>3873981secondarily bilateral echinoderms seems like a good way of making a new, alien clade.
>>3873981I dig this
>>3871536Then why do fucking mushrooms glow.
>>3872801>Koolasuchus survived until the early cretaceousIn other words, way before antarctica froze over
>>3874062Probably as a byproduct of the reaction. They don't gain anything from it, it's just something cool the reaction does. And as explainer anon said earlier, it may be selected for itself as a trait in the future because it's a dumb cool trick they can do which some population might find advantageous in certain environmental conditions, but it seems that the bioluminescence is just a byproduct of some other evolutionary trait that they picked up with the bioluminescence itself being yet to be co-opted for its own purpose
>>3874062A quick check on Wikipedia gives three answers that sound reasonable>Attract grazers that can spread your spores even at night>Deter grazers who are going to destroy your fruiting body by making yourself look strange and toxic>Act as an antioxidant to protect you while you're eating rotting wood
>>3874077I'm the anon who wrote the long posts about the evolution of flight and all that.Yeah, I tend to gravitate towards the antioxidant thing.The "Deter grazers" thing seems to me like bad biology and I don't know why some people take it seriously.I'm gonna explain a bit about how signaling you are poisonous actually works.Usually they teach us that "animals have bright colors to indicate that they are poisonous", simultaneously they will tell us "fruit has bright color to attract animals to spread the plant's seeds". So, which one is it, do bright colors signal poison or food?, well...Neither, bright colors only make you more visible, but if you are a poisonous animal you actually want to be very visible, why?Because poisonous animals are engaged in a sort of "evolutionary dance" with predators. An animal might be poisonous but a predator has no way to know it, so they eat it and as a result both animals die. Both parts are losing. Ok, so what starts to happen across many iterations? The predator genes that can't identify the poisonous prey die, but also the poisonous prey that are hard to identify are eaten and die.The predators are putting an evolutionary pressure on the poisonous individuals to be easy to identify and the poisonous individuals are putting an evolutionary pressure on the predator to identify them correctly. Eventually the poisonous animal evolves a very unique and easily identifiable pattern and the predator evolves to avoid that pattern, they made each other evolve to avoid confusion.However that signal only works on the environment it evolved because the predators also evolved to recognize it. If you take it out of it's context it's useless. If you take a Dart Frog and show it to a Dog, the Dog has no clue what he is seeing because he hasn't evolved in an environment with Dart Frogs, he is probably gonna find the funny bright colored animal very interesting, lick it and die.
>>3874134Now from here I can explain why fungus bioluminescence doesn't actually work.If you are drawing attention to you and you are not actually poisonous you are just gonna get eaten and there will be zero consequence for the individual who ate you. No one is going to evolve to avoid you because your signal is actually fake and meaningless. You have examples of animals that are not poisonous evolving to imitate poisonous animals but they are dependent on the existence of an animal who is actually poisonous existing. They can parasite the signal of the other animal because it actually carries a threat and the predator has no way to find out.Bioluminescent fungus are not specially poisonous and some of them are even edible, they carry no threat and thus their bioluminescent signal couldn't have evolved to deter predators. They also can't be free riding on the signal of another being.Also, what fucking fungus eating nocturnal predator are they so keen to avoid that they evolve such a metabolically expensive signal?
>>3874140Now from here I can explain why fungus bioluminescence doesn't actually work to deter predators*
>>3873374Sorry. If I'd known I was dealing with retards I would have approached the topic differently.
>>3873432>Basically the computer or whatever mechanism you are using to modify your genes would evolve into a Queen and humans would evolve into Sterile Workers at the service of the evolutionary needs of whatever is containing their genes, not themselves.>Read The Revolutionary Phenotype for a much better and laid out explanation of this mechanism.Dawkins explores that as a possible outcome. It is far from a certainty.
Listening to a FNF All Tomorrows Titans Mod (Yes, really, It was rather wholesome), and I though /an/ would like it too.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07GqnbcRYfg
>>3874189This is what normies have done with my hobby
>>3871163>>3871166need more fanarts like these please
>>3874195Why do you even care? Just ignore that shit and keep doing what you do. You sound like a whiny fag.
>>3874276good use of this meme>>3874400he's frogposter
>>3874400>Why do you care that the chef wipes his ass on the lettuce?>Just eat around the skid-marks and enjoy the rest of your salad!
Which one of you was talking about some creatures that turn into blobs and almost no bones?I dismissed the idea as stupid but came up with a solution that I am happy with...
>>3874610>idiotic comparison that doesn't really apply to what we're talking aboutYeah, you sound like a retard as well.
>>3874400>>3874610>>3874703Well, I will try to give an answer that is not that rude.To me the main problem is that of noise, Spec Evo was this thing that was very niche and the people doing it was really autistic and hardcore about it, so if you found a forum it was usually full of good information, great ideas and very knowledgeable people.As the hobby has been popularizing it has become more filled with "noise" and more difficult to filter.If you go to your average forum you will see almost no Spec Evo going on, most Spec Evo has turned into plain fantasy with some mimicry of biology knowledge sprinkled on top.It has become difficult to find people with actual good knowledge, most people in forums have a very poor grasp of biology and evolutionary mechanics, so yeah, the main problem is that the Spec Evo has basically been driven to extinction by the fantasy world-building invasive species.Some of the most popular "Spec Evo" works like All Tomorrows have are actually just pure fantasy and zero Spec Evo.Now there's nothing wrong with Fantasy, and I also enjoy it, but I'm a bit mad that the Spec Evo community and works have taken such a massive drop in quality lately.
>>3867216>squirrels have a non-fatal terminal velocitypredators have an easier time with catching you if you're on the grounddon't fall
I came from the /tg thread with interesting idea: Eusocial piranhas
>>3874718Same thing with conlanging.Some years ago the forums would be filled with good information and people with very good linguistic knowledge and the discussion would be very high quality and thought provoking.Now you have to go through loads of the same “hello, let me show you my underdeveloped polysynthetic conlang, jaja btw I don’t really understand polysynthesis, I just skimmed the wikipedia page for it and thought mashing words together was a cool idea for a conlang” posts to find something good.Also for whatever reason conlanging has become filled to the brim with trannies who will spend 10 times more time developing their convoluted language's gender system than the rest of the grammar combined.
>>3874723Very plausible.As explained in >>3867239 you just need a Piranha to produce some sterile or reproductively hampered offspring and go from there.I don't think Piranhas would evolve nests or a worker class. I could imagine the Queen piranha moving with a small school of 20 - 30 individuals. The small individuals would scavenge and hunt to supply food. Maybe you could have a Soldier class also. Since piranhas are big and carnivorous (actually they are omnivorous, but they strongly prefer to feed on other fish) I don't see them developing huge groups, since their environment would not be able to provide enough resources.
>>3874741>Since piranhas are big and carnivorous (actually they are omnivorous, but they strongly prefer to feed on other fish) I don't see them developing huge groups, since their environment would not be able to provide enough resources.just migrate to the ocean and boom, pelagic eusocial piranhas
>>3874751That would be interesting, resources are actually very scarce in open sea.Maybe the piranhas evolve a class specialized in storing food. When they find a food source like a school of forage fish they start an absolute massacre and consume as much as possible, feeding it to the Specialized storage piranhas, who then get extremely fat.The colony actually feeds on a special nutritious secretion made by the storage class, similar to how bees feed on honey.
>>3874756You have the Queen, a Storage Class, and a Hunter-Soldier class.
>>3874756very interesting, but how would that nutritious secretion evolve in the first plate ?and how would the school protect it's storage class from big predators like sharks or dolphins in the open ocean ?
>>3874765That's a bit tricky, but it could start as some kind of regurgitation strategy. At first the Piranhas could only store food for a few days and would be restricted to stay near reliable food sources but they could start getting better and better at it. And as for defense, yeah, I think a Soldier class works, still I don't see them at the top of the food chain and they would sometimes get rekt by dolphins and sharks.
>>3874765>and how would the school protect it's storage class from big predators like sharks or dolphins in the open ocean ?honestly a school of fish unafraid of nipping attackers would probably do really well
>>3874718As someone who has created Spec Evo for about 15 years and has been part of the community until relatively recently, I find it kinda funny that you refer to the old times as some kind of golden age. They weren't. There has been "noise" from the very beginning. There were a few big, successful projects, yeah, but a good part of what was created was very hit and miss. And this is to be expected, since most of the people engaging in this hobby are kids and teenagers. Even I created a lot of dumb shit when I was starting out. It isn't that hard to offer constructive criticism and point towards good sources of information so that the people making bad spec evo can learn and improve. And talking about scientific accuracy, I personally noticed a definite improvement over time in this regard, so I don't see where you're getting that from. Criticism also became more prevalent, to the point that people could get really annoying and nitpicky over specific details. In the olden days, most shit would just get a thumbs up as long as it looked cool.(CONT)
>>3874804About Spec Evo being exclusively a hard science thing, that's just not true. It has always been a very vague subject, including scenarios that explore the future or alternate evolution of Earth's lifeforms but also xenobiology and even more whimsical topics. There's a reason it is sometimes alternatively refered to as "speculative biology" or "speculative zoology". And this is why All Tomorrows has always been considered part of the Spec Evo "canon", in spite of not portraying evolution as accurately as other books/projects.Finally, gatekeeping something that people basically do for fun is a really childish thing to do. If someone likes to create a more fantasy-like Spec Evo, so be it, that's nobody else's business. And this is true whether their content is popular or not. I personally have created all kinds of Spec Evo from scenarios based on meticulous research to dumb fun shit, and I don't consider the latter to be inferior to the former. Again, it seems like you're trying to find a problem where there's none.But I agree with you in that Spec Evo is apparently dying out. There doesn't appear to be much content or discussion going on over at Deviantart or at the Speculative Evolution Forum. Maybe people have moved to other platforms like Discord, I don't know. In any case, nothing lasts forever, and Spec Evo has always been a very niche thing.
>>3874134I recall us doing an experiment in my college animal behavior class about this. We made bird bait of different colors and tainted one color with something that would make the birds sick. After a few weeks, the birds started eating everything but that color. Then we switched the color that was tainted and it took twice as long for them to adjust to the new color being the "bad" one. Not really evolution but interesting nonetheless.
Seeing All Tomorroww get publicly raped after years of niche popularity is still surreal and nightmarish
>>3875181Honestly, Kosemen seems to be enjoying the book getting popular, and while I agree its surreal to see modern memes and fandom-culture-stuff applied to a 2000s work of hideously intruiging art - I think its fun to see people enjoy something properly weird.If the creator himself enjoys it all, I don't see the harm in it. It's not like hes replacing the book with a 2021 edition with tumblr fanart.
>>3875192>author of a book enjoys the fact that the book got stupidly popular out of nowhereYeah you don't say
>>3875192If their idea of enjoyment is this then they're enjoying it wrong Also for whatever reason they're all fucking children
>>3875324>cherry-picking this hardYeah, we get it, you're a whiny fag. Everything upsets you and nothing is ever right.
>>3875324Based gatekeeper. I fucking hate seeing normies hop on this trend.
>>3875355What's there to cherry pick? everything else is some shitty low effort unfunny meme video you'd see on tiktok1 good animation is not worth seeing the book get raped and mangled by people who are "interested" in it just because it's currently popular, if you're so vehemently against what i'm saying it's probably because you were never interested in it before this sudden explosion of popularity, you need to go back
>>3875324I remember talking to a 9-year-old last night who was watching the first three Star Wars movies for the first time and he started unloading all of these facts about the original trilogy on me, stuff about the special effects, the extended universe, all of that. I told him I was impressed. Then I asked him his favorite part from Jedi since it was the one he had just watched, and he couldn't give me one. After I mentioned stuff like the Ewoks or the final battle he said he didn't remember that stuff. Turns out the kid was just really into Star Wars memes and videos in YouTube. That's... Pretty damn telling
>>3874195This is why gatekeeping is based.
>>3875355Why are you replying to every post like this, lmao.I bet you also enjoy the Undertale, Minecraft, and MHA fandoms too, huh.