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I dont understand why is it so hard for shounen mangakas to be so disconnected from what makes their show good.

Do they never read feedback about their work? is it like an ego issue? Or do they genuinely run out of ideas
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>>237722707
It's harder when you have a bad show like picrel.
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Neither of you speak English.
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>>237722707
Burnout plus the original editor who knew what he was doing being replaced by newbie editors who don’t
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>>237722707
Shonen Jump manga, especially the one you posted, are controlled by a rotating cast of editors who keep the author on a leash that is censorship, algorithm appeal, and marketability.
If you want the author's true vision, you should read seinen or an actual book.
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>>237722707
I think it's due to the editors trying to push their thoughts on the series to try to make them more popular and/or the authors not being able to use the strength of their series.
A good example of this for me is Mashle.
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>>237724132
>Shonen Jump manga, especially the one you posted, are controlled by a rotating cast of editors who keep the author on a leash that is censorship, algorithm appeal, and marketability.
Yeah, this is quite evident, especially with WSJ desperately trying to find new success. Look at how forced the rivalry in BC became for absolutely no reason at all for exemple.
>If you want the author's true vision, you should read seinen or an actual book.
Or, you know, a manga form a good magazine
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>>237722707
Shonen manga is written more by their editors than their artists.
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>>237722707
Most of the problems revolve around editors one way or another.
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>>237722707
>I dont understand why is it so hard for shounen mangakas to be so disconnected from what makes their show good
because a lot of times, they don't know what they did right.
take Horikoshi for example, he clearly can't write for shit, which is why his two other works got axed pretty quickly. So then he goes to make MHA, and it is an instant hit. Do you seriously believe he knows exactly why or how MHA got so popular, and what he did differently compared to his two former series that got canned? At best he knows the capeshit aesthetic is part of it, but it's clear he's just winging his own manga and hoping for the best.
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>>237724539
The morals are so dissonant, vague or even disgusting in MHA that I can't believe anything but that Hori is winging it.
His takes on the nature of heroism, ableism, abuse forgiveness, and social issues are so utterly shit. If he's not being yo-yo'd by his editor then he's an asshole with weird complexes and I don't want to associate with someone like that anyway.
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>>237724630
He's just a retaded idiot parroting ideas he doesn't understand while trying to add to them his personal spin. The funniest thing is that he contradicted himself multiple times.
Honestly I think hori is a really stupid person, with great drawing skills.
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>>237722707
Modern WSJ isn't lacking talents. Their main problem is a lack of good editors. The only decent editor they have currently is Katayama (KnY, JJK).

Jump used to have great editors before. Dragon Ball and Naruto wouldn't be as sucessful as today if not for Torishima and Yahagi (who left before Naruto's timeskip).
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>>237724825
Katayama almost got JJK axed and made BC become the Naruto rip-off for the public by making the rivalry survive beyond the 7th chapter
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>>237724539
Honestly, it feels like there's a dissonance between him and his editors. What he had in plan was basically super hero delinquent schools. Where the morals are clearly fucked. the problem is that editor-san didn't like that and made him change most of it. Bakugo wasn't changed which is why it's clearly at odds with the rest of the series.

But I stopped after the villains arc where hori set up a bunch of people just to job and then things got retarded really fast.
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>>237724848
katayama gave gege freedom, it's his first editor that forced retarded shit like rival schools and exam arcs, and he also was the only reason BC survived, there's a reason the series went to shit the moment tabata got a different editor
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>>237722707
Editors, speed of production, and trying to make something carry on for longer than it maybe should. It's hard to come up with a good concept, hard to execute it well, and then maybe for a while you have a period of somewhat easier production where there's plenty of story space but also plenty of material to work with. Eventually there's cracks that you didn't fix that have turned into huge issues, or there's not enough material, or too many loose ends, and you're tired out... It can be avoided, but it's hard and the structure of Shonen Jump makes it harder.
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>>237725205
>Check the sales of the series before speaking
the series' entire growth and best selling volume was thanks to Katayama, the moment he stopped working on it (volume 16) was when the series started its death spiral, as he was heavily involved in the writing process and the quality drop from his departure is extremely noticeable

also, why are you pretending that Yuno dying would change anything?
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>>237724132
>If you want the author's true vision, you should read seinen or an actual book.
You're retarded if you think those don't suffer from the same problem
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>>237725046
Killing off the rival in the 7th chapter would have given BC a complete different reputation to the public instead of being identified as the unoriginal shonen and Katayama was and is the editor in charge for some of the worst parts of jujutsu Kaisen (I was wrong about him getting JJK almost axed though, sorry about that).
All in all Katayama is decent, not good. Another exemple of this is Doron Dororon
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>>237725390
Editors exist to help a writer. They curb the author's excesses and cut the fat. Help collaborate about dialog. In shonen jump, they pretty much dictate everything. The plot, the characters, who to focus on. Someone like oda can get away with doing whatever he wants because he has sonority. Everyone else needs editor's approval.
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>>237724431
What strength of the Harry Punch Man ripoff are you talking about?
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>>237725448
Seniority. Fuck I should go to bed.
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>>237725357
BC downward spiral started with vol 20 as the chart you yourself posted shows
>also, why are you pretending that Yuno dying would change anything?
I'm not pretending it.
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>>237724825
I bet all the best editors in Jump retired after 2010.
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>>237725425
Katayama is responsible for WSJ's two biggest modern successes (KnY and JJK), while also having worked in a few decent hits like BC, AyaTri, Summertime Rendering, etc. Still, there's not a single editor in Jump's history who has a 100% success rate, so duds like Doron are to be expected. He's still leaps and bounds above all other editors in Jump currently, not even Lin comes close.
>>237725490
Killing Yuno wouldn't change a thing. You can't make a story about the MC being an underdog who wants to become the Hokage of his setting and not expect people to compare it to Naruto.
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>>237724539
>So then he goes to make MHA, and it is an instant hit. Do you seriously believe he knows exactly why or how MHA got so popular,
I'm not even sure I still understand why it was so instantaneously popular.
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>>237725706
hori was just quick enough to capitalize on the MCU/capeshit fad which was at its peak when MHA started serialization
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>>237725342
Concepts are easy enough, it's just a matter of not everyone having the legs to really last as long as the editor may want. Just look at how many oh so clever "reborn in another world but I'm a [insert random object here.]" The hacks writing this garbage come up with what might seem like a hook but it's all just window dressing to give the appearance of a unique spin before it ultimately just devolves into the same predictable shite almost immediately.
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>>237725658
KnY was in danger of getting axed and become that big thanks to ufotable. Jujutsu Kaisen rode KnY wave, got a very well made adaptation and was aggressively promoted.
Katayama was partially responsible for the success of both series, but surely he wasn't the main factor. Mostly it was thanks to luck. The other series you mentioned are more indicative of his ability as an editor.
>He's still leaps and bounds above all other editors in Jump currently, not even Lin comes close.
He surely better than most of the retaded editor in WSJ, but he still bound to the magazine terrible tropes as even JJK shows. Lin is a far better editor than him.
>Killing Yuno wouldn't change a thing. You can't make a story about the MC being an underdog who wants to become the Hokage of his setting and not expect people to compare it to Naruto.
And that's why killing the rival in the 7th chapter would have changed people's opinion completely.
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>>237725658
>>237726002
It also interesting comparing CSM sales with other series before they got the anime adaptation
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I just can't help but be salty when so much better shonen shit isn't given half the chance some of this shit is.
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>>237726002
>KnY was in danger of getting axed
not true, it always did well in the ToC rankings, never even getting close to the bottom 3 which is the axe zone
https://www.jajanken.net/en/sakuhins/a9J0LewN1P

>and become that big thanks to ufotable. Jujutsu Kaisen rode KnY wave, got a very well made adaptation and was aggressively promoted
when will this cope stop? if all it took was a decent adaptation and promotion for a series to explode in popularity, Jump wouldn't be struggling so much to find their next big hit. Not only that, but Fire Force would be much more popular since it got an anime adaptation on par to ufotable's Kimetsu, and a series like TR which got an absolutely shitty adaptation would never blow up like it did.
KNY and JJK are successful because they are way above their contemporaries. That's it.
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They don't care what makes their show "good" in the mind of 30 year old /a/utists reading manga geared towards 12 year olds. They care what makes their show popular with people who buy merchandise you utter retard.
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>>237726840
This anon's spitting facts.
The merchandising algorithm is God.
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>>237726870
>>237726840
>It's okay to suck as long as your profitable.
Yes, let us forever settle for and celebrate mediocrity.
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>>237722707
I think MHA was bad from the start but I'm clearly in the minority. If Hori's hack writing is still reeling in readers then good for him I guess. No need to change something that clearly works, I just read something else.
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>>237722707
Stop reading manga and start reading real lit
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>>237726002
>KnY was in danger of getting axed
No it fucking didn't, it rank well in WSJ and got CP pretty early. Just because it show the final boss early doesn't mean it was close to getting axe
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>>237725046
>today, Gege is putting pachinko and saying his protagonist has done underage drinking and gambling
>has a mangaka character break an editor’s fingers
They should let mangaka off the leash more often or they’ll end up violent when they’re successful like Gege.
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>>237722707
My Hero is as popular as ever so you just have shit taste.
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>>237727204
Why are you in this board? Go back >>>/lit/
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>>237724505
>Shounen JUMP manga
Ftfy
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>>237726529
Fire Force came out shortly before the KyoAni fire and many viewers were noted to have quit watching because they couldn't enjoy it anymore.
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>>237722707
most of shounnen is trash by default, period
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>>237722707
The problem with manga is that mangaka are expected to shit out a new chapter every week with no time to polish or plan ahead. They just make shit up as they go, with emphasis on quantity over quality. Japanese media would benefit from taking their time to plan out, write, rewrite, and only publish when the story is all wrapped up and cohesive.

This is why no anime or manga will ever be better than Avatar: The Last Airbender.
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>>237726273
This I'll actually agree with
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>>237728816
Avatar isn't actually that much better, it's just not as hated on because the western cartoon industry isn't as competitive as the manga industry. Manga actually has some of the better fictional works out there, it's just that the competitive nature of the industry causes fans of certain series to attack other series so you see more flaws pointed out.
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>>237727432
sure
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Vigilantes deserves an anime.
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Hack authors don't have the grace to end their manga before it overstays its welcome
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>>237724132
>you should read seinen or an actual book
>>237725390
>>237724477
Why not just go for an indie webcomic?
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>>237724132
>Implying Hori's true vision would be good
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>>237728816
Tell that to the mangaka who actually got shit planned out. Most manga do have the the option to plan out the basic of their plot first and change it as they go along. A plan should not be inflexible while offer a skeleton of the plot.
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> x ,y ,z is why shounen sucks cause b, c, d don't understand popularity
>Treating big hit in stories like there's a garunteed 100% formula

It's dumb luck and timing, there is no consistent reason any editor or author understands their story's popularity.
If there was some garunteed formula- then every title in jump or which ever publisher you want to point at- should be a hit- when reality there's many more axed titles then multi-million IP's.

Most are riding on inertia or word of mouth + marketing once a story does make it big, and then it's populary feuling itself.
People come up with all kinds of projections and reasons for their own ego to attribute success to their own work- because everyone wants to be "successful" and have something profitable or *big* related to them.
But it doesn't mean they're always right about all the reasons for their judgements. This isn't just in manga/ anime which is heavily dependant of FoTM/ FoTY hoopla, and based on whatever title is getting an anime that trends & still is serializing ( I.e.timing).
It's in everything : i.e. see noble disease where past winners later in life start claiming to be experts of and supporting bunk (i.e. homepathy, self medication, mysticism, aliens, eugenics & telepathy)
https://skepticalinquirer.org/2020/05/the-nobel-disease-when-intelligence-fails-to-protect-against-irrationality/
Success can be extremely random, getting recognition for being in the right place, right time, with right resources to 'discovering', publishing, or 'creating' something, doesn't mean the same person is gonna generate the same results indefinitely.
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>>237724630
>His takes on the nature of heroism, ableism, abuse forgiveness, and social issues are so utterly shit.
T. Retard who get mad that Hori doesn’t follow his headcanon
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>>237728816
TLA isn't as good as people like to pretend. It's good, but to say "no manga will even come close" is utterly retarded, when several surpass it.
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>>237731094
The problem is not following some random anonimo headcanon, the problem is not following at all.
These are namdropped and there's never a follow up.
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>>237729895
There are aspects that can be controlled though, like keeping themes and story consistent by briefing the bigger picture with your editor.
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>>237728816
Yeah, no. TLA is just decent, not groundbreaking nor anything even considering only the western cartoons. When you compare it to anime and manga it doesn't hold a candle to most of them, especially to shonen.
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>try new creative experimental things that adults will enjoy but kids will get bored by and stop buying and kill the series
or
>keep spouting out the same garbage with the illusion of change to appeal to their young boy audience so sales will keep rising and keep the series afloat and the only consequence is western otakus complain on the internet
It's pretty obvious why
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>>237733501
Yeah, JJK, TR, KnY, SxF, etc totally prove your point...wait, no they don't.
It's also quite pathetic thinking that only kids buy shonen manga. Look at MHA main audience
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>>237722707
Maybe not being an antisocial nerd who doesn't understand social interactions would help. I couldn't help but scoff at Shot this last chapter where he wholeheartedly thanks Deku for leading him towards a better path, something that happened 250 chapters ago, and the whole class for being a place where he can feel safe whereas his interactions with the class so far have been close to 0.
Seriously, 350 chapters and none of the students of class A seem to have a particularly strong relationship with another yet we are supposed to believe they are very dear to each other? Look at Deku vs class A, most of them couldn't even say some decent shit to convince Deku. Kaminari resorted to tell him to come back and take a bath, another dude just threatened to not give him food or something.
Even back during the raid Deku was more concerned for Aizawa than the freshly donuted Gran Torino even though Aizawa never had any meaningful interaction with Deku. They had the best setup for that with Aizawa teaching him not hurt himself and that lead to nothing, Deku kept hurting himself until it didn't matter anymore.
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>>237733392
He followed through all of those
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>>237722707
Maybe you should stop reading Jump and switch to a good magazine like Champion, Pedro.
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>>237733567
>Look at MHA main audience
child groomers?
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Trying to read Black Clover, 20 chapter in and the MC seems like the most generic piece of shit ever, doesn't help he in all the fights, fucking annoying
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>>237722707
>Do they never read feedback about their work?
Some do, some don’t. It does not necessarily help. For example if you write an action/adventure series, and get tons of feedback begging for more of the fan service and the romance subplots, it’s not going to help you.

Or for an example from MHA, when they went to do the forest training, people complained when the villains showed up. As a response, the mangaka abandoned some of his plans to get to the end of the arc and proceed to his next plan. This included abandoning the reveal of a traitor for over 250 chapters and helped make the resolution of what had been an early subplot into something very forced and lackluster.



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