Why is the genre known as "metroidvania" when all the game mechanics are borrowed from Super Metroid? SotN also uses rpg mechanics but that's not a Castlevania trait either. SotN is just a Metroid-like game with rpg mechanics.Shoudn't the genre be known as "metroid-like", "metroid-clone" or something like that?
>>5200210Japanese literally call these games "Side scrolling Tansaku action games". Tansaku means search/exploration.
>>5200212Much better than something retarded like shmup or metroidvania.
>>5200219I just call them Metroid clones. It's much more accurate.
They should be called non-linear dungeon platformers.
“Metroidvania” was memed into existance by some faggot söyboy journalist.
The aesthetic, story, etc. are still Castlevania. If you had a Belmont on an alien planet who used blasters instead of whips, that'd be a Metroidlike.
>autism: the threadWho fucking cares? Language is malleable and ever-changing. I call them metroidvania because I enjoy both franchises. And besides, SOTN absolutely added to the Metroid-like genre, by bringing more story into it and, yes, adding rpg mechanics and flavor item collection (as opposed to metroids items being 100% functional and irreplaceable). Platforming wasn't invented by Metroid either, and neither was a large map or exploration. It's not the mechanics, it's the recipe.
Lock & Key Platformer
I call them Tansakuvanias.
>>5200245No it isn’t “ever changing”, at least on a small time scale. if that were the case we wouldn’t be able to communicate. We set the definition of words for a reason.
>>5200258It is ever changing but you dont realize.
>>5200210Simon's Quest predates Super Metroid.
>>5200270When did it change last? This morning? Are there new words I should learn? Can you understand me, I don’t know how fast these changes are happening, oh god
>>5200276lit, twerk, generic "they," etc.You laugh but some of these words are in the dictionary now.
because people dont like to say metroid clones even though its more accurate
SotN is inferior to Super Metroid in every way
I think you mean WILLYVANIA, the subgenre made popular by the classic title, Jet Set Willy.
>>5200210"Metroidvania" was meant as an insulting nickname for the Castlevania games that ripped off Metroid, not a genre name. That's why.
>>5200210metroidvania simply means its free roam side scroller. there are so few in this genre you can name the only 2 franchises that are a part of it in the genre
>>5200469Yeah but those games turned out to be awesome. Only contrarians shit on them because they're not classicvanias. The rest of us are here enjoying comfy exploration game play in a gothic fantasy world, in spite of poor balance.
>>5200240Said basedboys thinks he's entitled to direct a Castlevania just because he wrote a few pretentious rags.
>>5200242>Belmont on an alien planet who used blasters instead of whipsSci-fi Castlevania when?
>>5200232It's not, though. Most metroidvanias actually take almost all their influence from SotN and other Castlevania games and are most definitely not Metroid clones. Metroid games (especially Super) are much more focused on navigation and movement (speed booster, grappling beam, wall jumps, bomb jumps, shinespark...) whereas Castlevania games are much more focused on combat (loot/equipment, backdash/dodge, leveling...) and have very little in the way of interesting movement mechanics; the bat, wolf, and mist forms are basically just door keys no different from something like missiles or power bombs in Super Metroid. They're similar games in a lot of ways, but their focus is very different and playing them doesn't feel the same, so just calling them all Metroid clones is much too reductive and not exactly accurate.
>>5200275>>5200353>>5200232This: >>5200669Basically, Super Metroid and Symphony of the Night define the genre. Simon's Quest (CV2) introduced the non-linear platforming and rpg mechanics to that series only a year after the original Metroid. So it's not like SotN suddenly decided to rip off Metroid with no history at all.The term "clone" is generally not appropriate as a genre definition. Clone usually defines a narrow subgenre at best. A "WoW Clone" is an MMORPG that specifically imitates World of Warcraft. Symphony of the Night is not a Metroid clone.>>5200212>Side scrolling Tansaku action games>>5200237>non-linear dungeon platformersThese are accurate, just mouthfuls. Terms like that only catch on if something more convenient doesn't stick first. In the case of Metroidvania, that's the term that stuck.
>>5200795Axiom verge wasn't all that good. Also, shame for leaving out Harmony of Dissonance, it's a solid game that perfectly scratches that GBA Castlevania itch.
>>5200814it's not my chart, feel free to update it
>>5200814>Harmony of DissonanceShame about the atrocious music.
>>5200248>forgetting about belt scrollers
>>5200258Listen to this schizoaffective brainlet lol
>>5200210Honestly, it's not. The genre is known as >2d, sidescrolling action adventureOr simply>action adventureSOTN and it's 6 follow ups were specifically called "metroodvania" because they are a specific combination of Metroid and Castlevania.Mouth breathers addopted the term to refference any and all games even vaguely Metroid like and latet any 2d game with backtrackomg at all, and there you have it.I have even seen fucktards say Shantae is a metroidvania fo fuck sakes.So in a sense, things have come full circle, and now metroidvania generally refers to 2d sidescrolling action afventure games instead of a specific series...
>>5200232>It's much more accurate.That is quite literally FAR LESS accurate, you dense motherfucker. Jesus Christ...
>>5200210They originally called sotn a metroidvania because it was a castlevania game that plays like a meteoid gamePeople call super metroid a metroidvania just because the first part of the word metroidvania is "metroid"
>>5200248What do the japanese call "top-down multidirectional shooters"?
>>5200210The genre name should be "map-filler"
>>5200568the gba games were the besthttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MG5EzU2EZ5o
>>5200826it's fucking great you pleb
>>5200795Ey, I always enjoy seeing Rabi Ribi get some recognition. Seriously, anyone in this thread should give it a look.
>>5201102Composition was great, soundchip was not.
>>5201068or "wall-licker" in the worst casessuch as Metroid
>>5200212We should adopt "tansaku".
>>5200469Metroidvania just happens to be easier/funnier to say than Metroid-clone, but yeah, the meaning is exactly the same.
>>5201118>tfw my fave styles are wall-licker and strolling donnybrook
>>5200795Simon's Quest may have introduced the non-linear gameplay to the series, but SotN copied a lot of elements from SM: the map system is the exact same thing, the fact you need special items or upgrades to reach certain areas for example.
>>5200248Never realised this before, but "shmup" or "shoot 'em up" are the most stupid names something could be call of.
>>5200210"Metroidvania" was originally a term to deride SotN, saying that it played too much like Metroid to be a real Castlevania game.
>>5201973Still better than "martiankillers" as they're often known in Spain due to Space Invaders.
>>5200219Wait, do people actually say "shmup" in real life? I always just assumed it was internet shorthand that only a complete mouthbreathing fedora with no self awareness would use in a spoken sentence.
>>5200210They should rightfully be called Brain Breaker Clones.
>>5200210>>5200212Yes. And metroid is just a side scrolling Zelda.
>>5202006and Zelda is just Zork with graphics and a controller. And Zork is just an electronic version of a choose your own adventure book. and CYOA books are just organize words on paper to invoke certain thoughts in humans.
>>5200245>Who fucking cares? Language is malleable and ever-changingoh you're one of those faggots... Look, i'll call you peperotachubecause language is fucking ever-changingtoma pa le
>>5200248it wasnt the japs who came with the concept of "First person STG" until both sides simplified into FPS?
>>5202273>ever-changing means changing at any speed for any reason at any time>t. binary-thinking retard
>>5201121except it's not. Metroid clone is not accurate. read the thread
>>5202428yep, took you a while to see how retarded yours were, meme sperg
>>5201121It's not exactly the same. See: >>5200669 >>5200795SotN and its successors have open worlds like Metroid, and they have a map like Metroid, but everything else about its design and gameplay focus is more akin to Zelda than Metroid. The creators of SotN have even said in interviews that they took inspiration from Zelda and I think it shows a lot.
>>5200210Yes it should be "metroid clone". It's slightly derisive that way which is appropriate because those games are shamelessly unoriginal.
>>5200248Are there historical reasons for "STG"? It's not written ShooTing Game, after all.
>>5200248Simulation RPG is stupid as fuck, let's not kid ourselves, tactical RPG is much better. Run n Gun is also pretty good
>>5202443>I was being retarded on purposesure you were
>>5200210Because most "Metroidvanias" are directly lifting from SotN with its more RPG style mechanics and focus on melee combat than from Super Metroid.
>>5202486>I don't like those games therefore language should cater to my dumb prejudices
>>5202565did you really finish school with that comprehension ability??oh wait, it's obviousyou didnt
>>5202156>and Zelda is just Zork with graphics and a controller. And Zork is just an electronic version of a choose your own adventure book.There is a reason people call Zelda (and Metroid) action adventure games.
>>5202575try harder faggot
>>5202581you did your best my meme kiddonow go seethe elsewhere
>>5202542Probably has to do with how Japanese writing breaks words into syllables.
>>5202542>>5202609It's another example of the Japanese borrowing and remixing English. I absolutely adore them. They have English words for broad genres that they break down to more detail later. These are all given three letter abbreviations. >ACT = Action >RPG = Role playing game>ADV = Adventure gamethere's a few more, but you get the idea. You'll see these three letter abbreviations in reviews and the back of boxes. They add more detail in text if you need to, like they say whether it's horizontal or side scrolling, an action rpg or turn based, etc. This will lead to some strangeness. Dark Souls, and Final Fantasy IV are both "rpg games". Super Mario Bros 3 and super Contra are both "action games". I get what they mean though. It's more specific.
>>5200210Exploration Platformer (or Tansaku as japs call it) would describe the genre best.
>mfw I started the "tansaku" meme on /v/ like a year ago and see other people posting
honestly we do need a redo on genre names to set some sort of standard.so many old games were just called action games, or side-scrollers, or platfomers.games like kirby, megaman, contra and castlevania were the same genre on paper.even metroid is the same category unless you factor in the backtracking/exploration.
>>5200210I don't call Metroid metroidvania. For me metroidvana is a way to differentiate Classic Castlevania with Iga Castlevania.
>>5200210no, fuck you
recommend me a beltscrolling scotformerm'up
>>5202668>I absolutely adore themfgt
>>5202486Metroid games don't have that RPG grindan crutch that SotN has. Metroidvanias are, properly, SotN clones.
>>5203308you mistake "genre" for "gameplay formula"Genre is supposed to be broad and basic.But we really need some subgenre specifications.
>>5202542Bang bang ShooTinG
>>5200210>topic about the origin of the stupid metroidvania term>81 replies>not a single mention of Jeremy Parish or Scott Sharkey/vr/ in a nutshell
>>5200210They're both side scrolling action games where you explore a maze searching for power ups, fighting enemies, and killing bosses. How are they not the same? Just some minor difference in theme and presentation.
That’s why I call them that. Metroid-like games. I wouldn’t say “Oh this is one of those Mariohedgehog games where you run and jump!”
>>5203692Not about the origin, but about the need to make a better term instead of stupid portmanteu made up by inept journos.
>>5203728Ahh, rock on then. And to be fair they both hate the term too, that's why we'll never know for sure because they both blame the other. But good luck changing it. That's the trouble with language, it doesn't always make sense but something can just catch on and stick. Literally literally doesn't just mean literally anymore. It's literally retarded.
>>5203692I don't know them and I don't want to know
>>5203692Oh yeah I'm sure their influence reached around the globe before household internet became commonplace. They're the bestest!>literally who?
>>5200210Because SOTN was the second most significant game to use that style of gameplay and even had its own unique spin. So eventually people looked at SM and SOTN and decided that what they were doing should be classified as a certain genre and what better name than to name it a fusion of the two earliest most prominent games that did this type of game.
>>5204417>literally who?The guys who came up with the term you're having a bitchfest over.
>>5203308You're just describing high-level classifications (see >>5203672)Classification is the point of genres. Some classifications are more inclusive, some are more exclusive.
>>5204690i guess choosing the right sub genres would have been the better post.what would you classify these 2d platformers as individually?-megaman-contra-metal slug-metroidrun n' gun seems to be the common sub-genre for platformers that have shooting, but megaman is usually classified as just a platformer.metroid was action adventure platformer but the term metroidvania has taken over.
>>5200975You just convinced me its a metroid clone, thanks.
>>5203565RPG elements in the castlevania style metroid clones are not even good and break the balance of the game, I honestly believe sotn added them in at the last minute to compete with the populatiry of rpgs at the time, or else you wouldnt be either underleveled or overleveled, the game has no sweet spot in terms of balance.
>>5204914>run n' gun seems to be the common sub-genre for platformers that have shootingyou mean shooters that have platforming. Both contra and Metal slug are shooters first, platformers second
>>5201997Yeah, so often that I deliberately refer to them as shooting games like they should be.
>>5204914this: >>5205037When you play Mega Man and play Contra, those games will feel very different. (Feels are just a first sign that you're dealing with a different genre)And the reason is that Mega Man is designed around platforming challenges that frequently require use of weapons.Contra is a constant stream of enemies with occasional platforming hazars to make the environment meaningful. The focus is primarily on shooting stuff. Contra also has a much faster pace. Metroid is more like Mega Man both in terms of pacing and the nature of the platforming mechanics.
>>5205178>Metroid is more like Mega Man both in terms of pacing and the nature of the platforming mechanics.but, obviously, Metroid has a focus on environmental exploration that Mega Man lacks almost entirely.
>>5200356As someone who recently went through both of them for the first time, this so much.SotN is a complete screwball mess the likes of which I have no idea how it actually gets praised. It's a collection of mechanics bolted onto each other that don't work together at all and most serve no actual purpose aside from being put in because the devs were far too ambitious for the actual content.And the content that is there is absolutely loathsome. The whole maps mostly just consists of two loops, which mostly comprise of self-similar corridors copy pasted over a few times in a row with instances of the same enemy repeated without meaningful variation. The level design is so simple I basically can't see it as anything but a joke. There's barely platforming to speak of most of the time, with the only exceptions being some parts that you can potentially get to with the wolf form, but which otherwise serve no purpose. Most enemies pose no threat whatsoever, and you can see from things like the stone status effect that no thought was put into why things are the way they are and content was just piled on top of itself without coherence.>>5200669This is what really gets me though. Where Super Metroid has tightly integrated mechanics where the way you explore things changes as you gain and discover you already had more abilities which combine together fluidly, SotN mostly consists of straight up keys, and the bat form which allows you to fly, which mostly excuses further thought.
>>5205251Couldn't agree more.
Seeing that we have some knowledgeable people gathered here, I have to ask: Any retro games out there like Environmental Station Alpha that ain't Metroid (or Baraduke/Project Firestart for that matter). Playing it I get this sense that it draws influence from past titles I'm not familiar with...
>>5201997They do. Makes me cringe every time i hear it.
>>5200356SM os too hardware for me, só o prefer SOTN.
>>5205616>like Environmental Station Alpha that ain't Metroid (or Baraduke/Project Firestart for that matterCool that you know Project Firestart, but that is a horror game!?Check out Exile.
>>5201120No we shouldn't. I refuse to use weeb terms.
>>5205040>shooting games like they should be.Fucking CoD could be considered a "shooting game". Might as well go back to calling all video games Nintendos.
>>5205956First person shooters never got big in Japan, so their terminology is all built around 2D STGs (shooting games). For games like CoD, they just say FPS (first person shooter). They seem to have an obsession with creating three letter abbreviations for genres. https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%83%95%E3%82%A1%E3%83%BC%E3%82%B9%E3%83%88%E3%83%91%E3%83%BC%E3%82%BD%E3%83%B3%E3%83%BB%E3%82%B7%E3%83%A5%E3%83%BC%E3%83%86%E3%82%A3%E3%83%B3%E3%82%B0%E3%82%B2%E3%83%BC%E3%83%A0
>Oh yeah, I'm a big fan of slump n' dumps, shoop da whoops, and plump n' gun games. My favorite genre however is the mariovanias though.This is how American gamers sound.
>>5205978unironically sounds better than weeb terms, misleading "shit-clone" terms, or 10-syllable multi-word autism.
>>5201997I prefer "scrolling spaceship genocide simulators."
>>5200210The proper name for the genre is "Boring Hallway Backtracking Simulator".
>>5206547bombing every single tile for the rest of your life simulator
>>5204671what's actually the first who used this formula?is there any that predates SM?
>>5206670>predates SM?Ummm... you do realize why it has Super in the title, right, sweetie?
>>5200669I think that Hollow Knight combines combat and movement rather well, much better than most other games of this kind.Too bad the environments are entirely angular without even a single slope.>>5206670There wer numeerous games like that on Spectrum and Commodore. The problems are:1) Most of them were not very well designed2) Speccy never got traction in americas which is why many americentric bitches completely disregard them
All these games are basically embellishing on a formula originated by Pharoah's Curse & Montezuma's Revenge so I propose VDM games as the broad term for the genre.
>>5200795The dlc modes in Shantae that turn it into a linear action platformer improve the game drastically. Its amazing how much better removing backtracking busy work makes a game.
>>5200248In Italy we just call the Metroidvania games with the term "dynamic adventure"
>>5201120Yes. Metroidvania is stupid.The Genre defining game is metroid/super metroid everything else came later and just adapt the base mechanincs.Also, Samus has a multifunction canon and bombs. If she was the main character in Castlevania she would just demolish the castle.
>>5203473Do you mean Iga, like the Iga Sinobi clan?
>>5206670The first one similar enough that I'm aware of is The Sacred Armour of Antiriad
>>5210803Metroidvania = Castlevania Symphony of the Night. Specifically. The term means SotN clones. It has very little to do with Metroid at all. You wouldn't call a Metroid clone like Axiom Verge a Metroidvania, because it has no castlevania in it.
>>5210880Except for the part where everyone including the creator refers to it as a metroidvania game.
>>5205889>too hardware for me
>>5210494When did that happen?
>>5211025I think during the 2000, when videogame magazines had skilled journalists with the will of spreading the medium's culture. Compared to today ones, only capable of spitting the same opinions, translating cheap articles made by SJW (like the ones that admonished Lovercrat in videogames due to his racism points) and getting bribes in order to write positive reviews.
>>5210880As >>5210894 mentioned Axiom Verge is promoted everywhere as a Metroidvania. But I concur with you, I would't call it either,Also, I like to call all the ones that follow SotN mechanics as backtrackring hack-n-slash games.
>>5200210While I take your point, I don't care when people say 'metroidvania' because I understand perfectly what they mean when they say it. The term is widely-used and understood, even if you have accurate pedantic criticisms of it. Stop being so autistic.
>>5214126I call them explorey worey click and clack fun time simulators. Makes so much more sense than metroidvanias
>>5205251>SotN is a complete screwball mess the likes of which I have no idea how it actually gets praised.This, I just finished it up recently as well and came to the same conclusion, everything feels like it got tacked on and blended together, it doesn't feel like a organic or coherent game
>>5214753Essentially, it feels like it was made by *that guy*. The guy you thinks "you know, wouldn't it be cool if the game were to have this thing I just thought up", except the entire team consisted of people like this, all wanting to put the cool thing they just came up with in the game. The result is all this stuff that just gets shoved in and pasted somewhere, and then just exists alongside everything else, while conversely there is no core design philosophy holding it together. You mostly end up just walking from place to place and kind of just hitting the things in your way. And while doing this you end up finding that for its not even uncommon to have whole rooms repeated 3 or so times in a row, even if they just consist of the same gauntlet of enemies.The game also seems to do a relatively poor job of presenting puzzles to you. You mostly either know exactly where to go or what to do next, or you have no idea and end up trying random shit just to see if it works.
>>5215101>its not even uncommon to have whole rooms repeated 3 or so times in a row, even if they just consist of the same gauntlet of enemies.This is noticeable from the start too, the whole slog across to the outer wall is basically a taste of things to come for the rest of the game
>>5200276god does it hurt being this fucking stupid
>>5206429Was this the origin of “rooty tooty point and shooty?”
>>5201120I'm for this
>>5201120>>5210803>>5217057No we shouldn't you fucking hipsters desperate to look special by nitpicking common terminology.
>>5200210why isnt metroid called a side scrolling platformer with Kings Quest like mechanics?
>>5217154Same reason why dogs aren't called "social, domesticated animals with spinal chords that breastfeed their young, eat meat, have long muzzles, upright ears, teeth adapted for cracking bones and slicing flesh, long legs, and bushy tails"
bumpingNothing made by pro devs comes close to being as complex as La-Mulana
>>5200276>anon, time is ever changingWhen did it change last? This morning? What day is it?
>>5200240Metroid like Castlevania games on Sony:-Symphony of the nightMetroid like Castlevania games on Nintendo-Circle of the moon, Harmony of Dissonance, Aria of Sorrow, Dawn of Sorrow, Portrait of Ruin, Order of Ecclesia, Mirror of fate.That must have been one desperate journalist.
>>5219795your reply has nothing to do with their post
>>5200248>>5202549The Wizardy series originlly advertised themselves as "simulations", and given how popular the franchise was/is in Japan, they probably got that from there... Although the Wizardry games are "drpgs" (dungeon rpgs), but still.
>>5220740and I'm guessing they took the "simulation" as in "let's pretend this is our homebrew D&D campaign", back when capturing that feeling was still important for the genre. Tactical RPGs could be seen as tabletop simulations too.
While this thread is... here? I've never played a metroid game before. I decided to start with the NES title, and I absolutely hate it. It's hard to tell where is where, and having no way to restore health other than grinding enemies feels like garbage.Is that why everyone says that game aged terribly? Should I just skip it and hit up SM?
>>5221759You have to make your own map, Anon. It's half of the fun. But when people talk about Metroid being a legendary game they are talking about Super Metroid, so play that if you want to. Prepare to be amazed.
>>5221763>You have to make your own map, Anon. It's half of the fun.If the game's map was actually well designed you wouldn't need a map. You can easily navigate Super Metroid without looking at the map, even on your first time through the game, because the corridors and rooms look unique enough to always give you a sense of where you are and help you build up a mental map of the areas. Metroid 1 has way too many literally identical rooms, corridors, and shafts in every area that just get you turned around and confused all the time. And don't say it's because NES games can't handle it, because Zelda 1 does just fine making each screen look distinct enough to help you remember where things are. Metroid 1's map is just poorly designed.
>>5200356Remove the broken as fuck items, abilities and the RPG mechanics and it's suddenly a better game. There's a good game in there buried under a chuuni power fantasy.
>>5203692>Jeremy Parish or Scott SharkeyThe primordial e-celebs. Better off forgotten.
>>5205251I came to that conclusion decades ago, but it's still fun when you first boot the game up. Less so as you get insane power ups.