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Would he have liked 5e?
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Probably not.
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>>68313020
Do you like 5e anon?
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Rolled 3 (1d20)

>>68313020
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>>68313020
No
/thread
>>
It's a fair cop; the real question is, what did he like and dislike about games in general, and about RPGs specifically?

He was around for 3rd but not 4th; he certainly would have detested 4th. How did he feel about 3rd? 5th shares a lot of DNA with it.

Bears some research, I warrant...
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>>68313020
Almost definitely not.
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>>68313164
He hated 3rd and the general direction it was taking the game.
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>>68313020
Ruling is hard. This was maybe my answer to Gary Gygax, whom, as much as I admire him, I do quibble with. Greyhawk had a very medieval philosophy: that if the strongest wizard was a neutral man, the land would prosper. We look at real history and it’s not that simple. Gygax can say that Mordenkainen became topdog and reigned for many years, and he was wise and good. But Gygax doesn’t ask the question: What was Mordenkainen’s tax policy? Did he maintain a standing army? What did he do in times of flood and famine? And what about all these bugbears? By the end of the war, Vecna is gone but all of the bugbears aren’t gone – they’re in the plains. Did Mordenkainen pursue a policy of systematic genocide and kill them? Even the little baby bugbears, in their little bugbears?

The war that Gygax wrote about was a war for the fate of civilization and the future of humanity, and that’s become the template. I’m not sure that it’s a good template, though. The Gygax model led generations of fantasy writers to produce these endless series of autistic wizards and evil bugbears who are all very ugly and wear black clothes. But the vast majority of wars throughout history are not like that.
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>>68313164
Source: My Ass
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>>68313264
Would Mordenkainen’s tax policy be able to survive the local lord and his men-at-arms in full harness?
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>>68313020
No, he'd have wanted most of the overpowered class featured in D&D 5th gated behind more stringent alignment requirements and also would have wanted the HP bloat cut way down. Probably wouldn't have cared too much for the Champion Fighter, either.
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>>68313020

Maybe. It's definitely closer to his metier than 3e or 4e in a lot of ways, but at the same time it seems to be a realization of his worst pet-peeves about the game - namely the preponderance of pre-made material.
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>>68313253
Have you more details on this ?
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>>68313020
Who cares? AD&D was full of awful ideas and most of them directly stemmed from him. He created something brilliant, but it only began achieving its true greatness when he was taken away from the helm.
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>>68313020
He would have probably disliked it. If he was vocal, he'd get metoo'd or something to get rid of him.
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>>68313020
Yes and no
He would have liked it getting people off their computers and playing. I think he would have preferred things stay more challenging.
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>>68313164
Castles and Crusades 1e was made with his blessing to run adventure modules made by him. Later editions of that game are a mess, so I dunno if he would have still backed it (But they were paying him, so...)

His last game directly designed by him was a d100% abomination that nobody seems to own a copy of. I think it was named lejendary and my understanding is that it follows the esoteric game design concepts from the 80s.

The game he ran whenever he played RPGs was D&D 1e. I'm not sure why he stopped playing Lejendary in his personal sessions, but maybe the game was too complicated for his deteriorating health.
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>>68313020
Not enough obscure polearms for him.
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>>68313861
Not enough Paladins murdering and enslaving for him.
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>>68313879
That too
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>A MEANINGFUL CAMPAIGN IS NOT POSSIBLE UNLESS STRICT TIME KEEPING RECORDS ARE KEPT
>pic related
No
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>>68313508
awful ideas and most of them directly stemmed from him
Such as?
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>>68314096
Bet you 5cp that he will start talking about all the AD&D2e stuff he was not even around for.
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>>68314120
I'll see your 5 and raise you 2 electrum.
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>>68313264
Based!
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>>68313020
Does it matter?
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>>68314120
That brings up a good question though, it's established he hated 3e but what did he think of 2e?
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>>68314096
Humans HAVING to always be the dominant race, the dual-classing/multiclassing split when the latter is objectively superior, racial limitations on class and level, the "Oriental Adventures" demihumans being Japanese Elves, Japanese Dwarves, and the most bland homogeneous mashup of Hengeyokai imaginable, 9-grid alignment...
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>>68313020
He liked playing games. 5e is a game. Would it be his fave edition? Probably not. Who knows? In the end, D&D is an idea and not an edition.
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>>68314519
Oriental Adventures is the only thing you listed that was bad.
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>>68314519
Those were all present in OD&D, tho. AD&D was a better organized version of the original pamphlets. Oriental Adventures was just a cash grab, ninja and samurai media was popular and they wanted that cash. Dunno if Gygax actually wrote that book, seeing as he was never deep into asian stuff and the book does have some historical junk in there.

Dave Arneson’s D&D didn’t even feature non-humans as player characters according to what we know from his information on the first campaigns played. Not even classes, apparently.
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>>68314519
Multiclassing being exclusive to demihumans balances out the level limits. Also theres nothing wrong with humans being the dominant race. It makes demihumans special when they are more rare.
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>>68313020
Who cares?
The old man is dead.
The hobby had grown WAY outside his sphere of control in just a few short years after his founding works.

If you want to make D&D a cult of personality around one single man then I think you're interested for the wrong reasons.
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>>68314414
Not really. It's like asking what Abe Lincoln would think about modern day foreign and domestic policies in terms of nations and states with a lower GDP than the District of Columbia.

Fun for thought experiments and intellectual masturbation, but doesn't matter in the slightest
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>>68314672
>The hobby had grown WAY outside his sphere of control in just a few short years after his founding works.
This is something that I wonder about at times. 2e was when they actively started pushing away from Gygax's vision of tabletop gaming. Most people who think about D&D think about shit that has almost nothing to do with him in contrast to the new design styles and developments that had been going on in other tabletop games from the mid to late 90s and early 00s.
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>>68313765
I own a copy of Dangerous Journeys and have played it several times. I wouldn't go so far as to call it an abomination, but it is pretty bad. The worst part of it was the fact that there were assloads of skills that gave your character spells and depending on how you built you'd have dozens of spells to pick from a half dozen lists. The other thing that was really bad is "You must be this lucky to play a wizard" was heavily baked into the system. You had to roll really well to even have a chance to play a true caster.
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>>68314482
Considering 2nd edition was made so that TSR didn't have to give him royalties for D&D he probably hated it regardless of its rules.
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I hear he's playing a tiefling warlock on Critcal Role: Seance! this fall.
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>>68314733
I heard that the game he made after that, Lejendary Adventure was actually pretty decent and a sort of return to form. To bad players rules are over 100 dollars and pdfs don't exist. I have the DMs book and its not to bad. He clearly had lightened up after years of being fucked over.
I've also heard that the reason Dangerous Journeys sucked is because TSR sued him and made him change the rules because they were to similar to D&D but I don't know how true that is.
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>>68314811
Open License was a thing at the time, no?
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>>68314853
In the case of Dangerous Journeys, no it was before 3e hit the stands and thus there was no OGL.
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>>68314853
Don't think so. TSR was going crazy after they kicked gary out.
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>>68314904
Ah, fucked up the year in my head.
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>>68314733
>You had to roll really well to even have a chance to play a true caster.
Yeah he didn't like spell casters. At all. Was a staple of anyone that actually knew him (apparently) The common phrase was he only wanted to play a "Super Human" - which meant things like He-man and Conan.

Probably would have loved 4e to death. Then hated it for the no-instant death babying.
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>>68314999
>Yeah he didn't like spell casters. At all
Mordenkainen was one of his characters he played the most.
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>>68313253
>>68313454

GameSpy: Have you had a chance to play or even look at some of the current Dungeons & Dragons games?

Gygax: I've looked at them, yes, but I'm not really a fan. The new D&D is too rule intensive. It's relegated the Dungeon Master to being an entertainer rather than master of the game. It's done away with the archetypes, focused on nothing but combat and character power, lost the group cooperative aspect, bastardized the class-based system, and resembles a comic-book superheroes game more than a fantasy RPG where a player can play any alignment desired, not just lawful good.

Now, should I tell you what I really think?

http://pc.gamespy.com/articles/538/538820p2.html
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>>68313020
Look, all due respect to Gary for what he did for the hobby, but does it really matter? He probably wouldn't have cared what 5e was like as long as people were having fun. He houseruled everything he played anyway.
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>>68315124
Tell'em like it is Gary.
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>>68314672
Even if you don't like the way he did things, you pay respect to Gary Gygax. He's the reason why tabletop is as popular as it is now, he laid the foundation for entire communities of friends to get together and enjoy telling their own unique stories. Without him and his contributions, tabletop would be very different from what it is now.
Honor your roots.
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>>68315035
Which is ironic, I agree, but still true.
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>>68315124
>The new D&D is too rule intensive. It's relegated the Dungeon Master to being an entertainer rather than master of the game
Can someone walk me through this? Never played any edition of D&D nor have I really touched any RPG's that could be considered old. How did Gary feel about rules as it related to roleplaying?
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>>68315124
savage af. based gary.
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>>68315383
In basic and even AD&D1e, your class existed to say "This is the kind of stuff your character can do, these are modifiers to a handful of dice rolls, and here are example from literature of who you should aspire for your character to become."
So sure you had dice, you had chances of failure, you had encounters that could outright kill you for not being smart enough or having good enough rolls before engaging them, but ultimately he saw it as a game to explore creating heroic characters from stories. To him the narrative mechanics movement that seems to have found its own niche these days would be close to what he's looking for.
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>>68315124
So what you're saying is that he would have loved 5E's focus on players being locked into their archetypes, GM fiat, and nobody being able to do anything alone.
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>>68315383
Basically that the rules shouldn't box you in but rather provide a framework for play.
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>>68315438
>To him the narrative mechanics movement that seems to have found its own niche these days would be close to what he's looking for.
That works as a start. Thanks.

>>68315456
Now I wonder how he'd feel about GURPS as it's the system I'm most fond of.
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>>68315510
I don't know. I don't think he ran much other than a sort of house ruled white box D&D so he might not have even read gurps. Also I get the feeling he wasn't super fond of skills and I think he only used them begrudgingly in his later games.
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>>68315448
That's certainly one interpretation, but I also imagine the fact you have to wait for level 3 to get your schitck choice probably would have annoyed him because it made lots of people the same early on
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>>68315448
Well there are a couple classes that can function just fine on their own. Only time it gets a little sketchy is if the DM is still building for a four man party which is what CR is based off.
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>>68315594
Seeing as the only classes that Gary made himself were Fighting-man, Cleric, and Magic-user, I'm pretty sure he'd give no fucks about needing to wait a few levels before being allowed to specialize.
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>>68313020
He hated every D&D past 2e, if I remember.
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>>68314519
>>68314575
Good-evil alignment was a mistake, one that’s led to countless arguments over what the fuck “good” and “evil” are actually supposed to mean
The vast majority of people can agree on some things being definitely good or evil, but there’s enough grey areas and edge cases to cause sperg-outs from now until the end of time, so it’s best to just chuck the whole thing out
If you want to play a good dude, play a good dude, you don’t need a box on your character sheet to tell you that he’s a good dude

Law and Chaos are fine, though best portrayed as cosmic forces rather than individual morals
Law and Chaos fight, and Neutral runs for cover and the like
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>>68315124
>There's a number of things in Advanced Dungeons & Dragons that I never should have done. I shouldn't have put Psionics in there, but somebody talked me into it.
200% based.

Psionics eternally btfo
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>>68316155
Id like to see more law vs chaos conflicts, but I dont want to play Warhammer at all.
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>>68316165
Warhammer isn't really law vs chaos at all. Sure chaos exists as a thing, but law as a force doesn't and it really just boils down to blatantly evil vs not quite as evil but still pretty fucking evil because we have to be to get by. Warhammer copied the law vs chaos dynamic from Moorcock's Eternal Champion stories but really kinda took it off into its own direction to the point where it's not even close to the same thing. Not even a slight against Warhammer either, it's allowed to be its own thing, it's just not law vs chaos.
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>>68315124
BASED AND REDPILLED
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>>68315594
>the fact you have to wait for level 3 to get your schitck choice probably would have annoyed him
When he was in charge, level 1 clerics couldn't even cast spells, while magic-users got exactly one (1) spell.

Even shit like third-edition cantrips and casting stat bonus spells/day were decried as casualizing the game at the time. 5e mages are practically superheroes by comparison with literally unlimited cantrips, class features, not even having to pick which slots you're preparing in, and multiple spells per day at level one. So it's hard to imagine an OG player feeling much sympathy for them not getting even more free extra bullshit until three levels in.
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>>68314414
Does anything on this board and/or website?
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>>68315124
> It's relegated the Dungeon Master to being an entertainer rather than master of the game
Literally describing pic related
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>>68316432
Opinions matter. Ideas matter. 4chan is, for all the memeing, a place you can go to be yourself and say what you really think.
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>>68313035
fpbp

/thread
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>>68314519
Most of those are fluff "issues" and are perfectly fine, and would by Gygaxian standards be up to the GM. Except
>dual-classing/multiclassing
Alright, I'll give you that one.
>racial limitations of class and level
That's perfectly fine, and fucking based. Not all races are created equal or have equal culture and nature. Paladins are/should be an intrinsically human concept. This is higjly fluff-adjacent, though, and again by Gygaxian standards, if you don't like it, if you have something you want to do that fits with the particular game you're playing, just change it.
>9-grid alignment
That's fine. 99% of all issues with alignment comes from you being a retard. Alignment is just the cosmic moral alignment of your soul in a planar sense. That's it. It doesn't restrict anything, and is merely a tool to convey moral weight, not define behavior in any way whatsoever.
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>>68316432
If it doesn't matter, why are you here?
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>>68313020
Is that the guy who designed Numenera?
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>>68315124
>No, I think we got it.
For fucks sake.
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>>68315383
>How did Gary feel about rules as it related to roleplaying?
He made his own. Gary Gygax was unbelievably based.
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>>68316813
Because it doesn't matter that I am and wouldn't if I wasn't.
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>>68316808
>That's perfectly fine, and fucking based.
No, it's fucking stupid and killing it was one of the best things WotC ever did.

>Not all races are created equal or have equal culture and nature.
So build your races to emphasize their strengths and encourage them to play to type, rather than simply penalizing them for not playing to your idea of "appropriate"! It's not that hard a fucking concept to grasp - fucking 4th edition realized it!

>Paladins are/should be an intrinsically human concept.
Bullshit. If you really are so unimaginative that you can't see elven champions of their fey lords, or dwarven heirs to mystical secrets empowered by their ancestors, then you shouldn't be playing /tg/.

>This is higjly fluff-adjacent, though, and again by Gygaxian standards, if you don't like it, if you have something you want to do that fits with the particular game you're playing, just change it.
Except this literally justifies nothing - it would be just as easy to not have such arbitrary restrictions in the first place!

Seriously, when you have seen two people literally fist-fighting over whether dwarves can be wizards or not, with one citing the the PHB and the other citing a combination of European mythological lore, the Al-Qadim splats, and the Giantcraft splat, you realize the racial class/level limits are amongst Gygax's stupidest invention and we are better off for being rid of them.
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>>68315221
He was pretty critical of games that didn't have any challenge one time slamming the creator of Seventh Sea for being improve actor rather than a true RPG gamer.
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>>68317639
>Bullshit. If you really are so unimaginative that you can't see elven champions of their fey lords, or dwarven heirs to mystical secrets empowered by their ancestors, then you shouldn't be playing /tg/.
That doesn't sound like Paladins at all. Sounds more like a monster encounter or an enemy subtype.
>No, it's fucking stupid and killing it was one of the best things WotC ever did.
Non distinctive races are gay as shit. Might as well have every thing be human at that point.
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Gary hated everything made by TSR and WotC after he was forced out. Regardless of what excuses he's made for justify it, he's simply hated it because he wasn't making money on it.
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>>68315383
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>>68315510
All the things he supposedly hates are omnipresent in GURPS. Why have all these rules when Gary could tell you things instead?

Also, GURPS fighting rules are based on real world research instead of trash-tier fantasy, so they would probably be incomprehensible for him.
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>>68316155
All alignment debate stems from people still lagging behind and using the TSR-era retarded definitions instead of the clear, concise and inarguable WOTC-era definitions.
You can also thank TSR for the chaotic randumb stereotype.
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>>68315124
I agree, Gary. Fuck Critical Role. This is seriously based.
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>>68318414
On the contrary, this makes me thing he would have loved Critical Role. He seems very supportive of making shit up instead of following any internally coherent set of rules. Really, just add crude humor, kill 6 characters per session, add hordes of disposable minions and a spoonfull of metagaming and CR would be the perfect 80s D&D campaign.
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>>68317639
>4e
Absolute and complete trash from beginning to blessed end.
>elven champions of their fey lords, or dwarven heirs to mystical secrets empowered by their ancestors
Those are not Paladins, you fucking tool. That's just it.
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>>68313035
fpbp
/thread
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>>68313020
>Yes
>No
>Yes
>No
>Yes
>Maybe
>No
>Yes
>No
And he would change his stance toward it like this roughtly every three months.
Just like he did with every-fucking-thing else
>>
He would have liked it more then 3rd and 4th edition, as 5e tries to take back some of the oldschool "simplicity" and "rulings over rules" that the oldschool games have, but who knows. We'll never know.
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>>68316165
warhammer has long since stopped being chaos vs law. They stole the concept from morecoke and then eventually decided to drop the law. And now chaos isn’t even chaos. It’s more “corruption” and “destruction” that sometimes works in chaotic ways.
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>>68318927
>oldschool games
Revisionist trash for retards you mean.
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>>68317713
>I don't want variety, I want everyone to play human knight that screams "deus vult" and kills da lesser races
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>>68319090
I like them and they're fun. Don't care about your opinion.
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Anyone who wants to know more of garys opinion on things should look up Garys Clarifications to find a pdf of organized forum posts he made. Some are pretty interesting.
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>>68320576
Why don't we post that PDF if we're so great
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>>68320819
> Also, as I have often noted, a paladin can freely dispatch prisoners of Evil alignment that have surrrendered and renounced that alignment in favor of Lawful Good. They are then sent on to their reward before thay can backslide

>An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth is by no means anything but Lawful and Good. Prisoners guilty of murder or similar capital crimes can be executed without violating any precept of the alignment. Hanging is likely the usual method of such execution, although it might be beheading, strangulation, etc. A paladin is likely a figure that would be considered a fair judge of criminal conduct.

>I am not going to waste my time and yours debating ethics and philosophy. I will state unequivocally that in the alignment system as presented in OAD&D, an eye for an eye is lawful and just, Lawful Good, as misconduct is to be punished under just laws.

>A paladin is qualified to be judge and jury--assuming he is acting according to the oath he took to gain his status

>If the foes of these humanoids are so foolish as to accept surrender and allow their prisoners to eventually go free and perform further depredations, your "Good" forces are really "Stupid."

>The non-combatants in a humanoid group might be judged as worthy of death by a LG opponent force and executed or taken as prisoners to be converted to the correct way of thinking and behaving. A NG opponent would likely admonish them to change their ways before freeing them. A CG force might enslave them so as to correct their ways or else do as the NG party did. CN and LN opponents would likely slaughter the lot. Evil opponents would enlist, enslave, or execute them according to the nature of the Evil victors and that of the survivors. Enlistment would be for those of like alignment, slaughter for those opposite the victors' predisposition to order or disorder. Enslavement is an option for any sort of Evil desiring workers
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>>68316857
I keep seeing that quote, and although it is a very true quote, I'm not sure where it was mentioned or the context Or even if it could actually be attributed to Gary.
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>>68321049
Gygaxian Paladins are the best Paladins, imo.
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>>68321137
It's also the only paradigm that makes a lick of sense within the context of dnd adventures

It's easy to see what he meant about new dnd being about superheroes; it's not just about power level or hyper-focus on player-characters' combat abilities, but the moral standards applied to them. Modern superheroic standards of mercy and justice are nonsensical in the context of dnd characters' power-level, situation, and the worlds they live in.
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Does it matter? The better question is do you and your friends like it. That's all that really matters at the end of the day
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>>68321049
>>I am not going to waste my time and yours debating ethics and philosophy.
So you lose by default.
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>>68321502
A random hobo jumping out of a bush and yelling "dEbAtE mE!" does not actually mean anything, anon.
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>>68315124
Holy tucking based
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>>68316808
>Paladins are/should be an intrinsically human concept.
Why?
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>>68321658
Because it was made up by humans.
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>>68321502
The real loss when you waste like 2+ hours of your life in a debate about ethics or philosophy with an online stranger, which doesn't change anyone's mind and more likely served to harden the other party's opinion

Knowing and heeding that means gygax was just wiser than easily 90% of internet users
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>>68321681
Hell, one can look at any alignment thread that spins off into real life morals if one wants an example.
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>>68321700
Or a good chunk of twitter
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>>68321564
>>68321681
>I can't explain nor justify my opinion, but it's still the best, trust me
We all know he had a lot of very strong opinions on how to do things right, and loved pontificating upon them. If he actually cared about saving time, he would have just kept quiet.
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>>68321780
Time and place, anon.
4chan is not the place.
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>>68321780
can you try to ruin another thread anon?
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>>68321780
Uh... The original post was Gary explaining how it worked in context of the game, and asked the poster to stop bringing up real world morality as it had nothing to do with the alignment system. Thus, it is a waste of time to discuss ethics and morality as they apply to the real world when discussing alignments as they work in D&D.
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>>68315383
This is a Mornard quote, but I think it gets the point across.
>UNSTATED ASSUMPTIONS -- DIPLOMACY

>It’s really, really hard to describe the effect that the game “Diplomacy” had on D&D, not the least because I’ve only played it a couple of times myself.
>For those of you who aren’t familiar with Diplomacy, it is a game that in many ways resembles a multiplayer game of Risk – you have a map, and players, and armies and fleets and you want to win the war. What makes Diplomacy different, though, is… well… “diplomacy.” Diplomacy is a game that allows, and in fact assumes, negotiations and alliances between players.
>It also allows, and assumes, lying through your damn teeth.
>Here is what the original rules set of 1959 said about the “diplomacy” part of the game:

>>“Diplomacy
>>Combinations and agreements among the players may affect the course of the game a great deal. These are determined during the diplomacy period which takes place before each move. This period lasts 30 minutes before the first move, and 15 minutes before each move thereafter. These periods may end sooner if all the players agree at the time. During these periods a player may say anything he wishes. Usually the players go to another room or off to a corner in two’s and three’s. They try to keep the contents of their conversations secret. They may try to overhear the conversations of others. The conversations usually consist of bargaining or joint military planning, but they may include such things as exchanging information, denouncing, threatening, spreading rumors, and so forth. Public announcements may be made, and documents may be written and made public or not as the players see fit. The rules do not bind a player to anything he says; deciding whom to trust as situations arise is part of the game.”
>(from www.diplomacy-archive.com/resources/rulebooks/1959.pdf all rights to the author)

>A pretty full 172 words.
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>>68315383
>A full discussion of DIPLOMACY is beyond the scope of what I’m doing. Also note that as of this writing, I have NOT read Jon Peterson’s “Playing at the World.” For a serious look at the history of DIPLOMACY as it influenced D&D, see there.
>“Well then,” I hear you cry, “why did you bring it up at all?” Remember, Eager Young Space Cadet, this is a memoir. It just happens to be a memoir about a ton of people who played DIPLOMACY. D&D arose from the wargaming community, and wargamers played DIPLOMACY. So how did it influence what we brought into D&D?
>DIPLOMACY is a game with a winner and a loser. The winner of DIPLOMACY is the person who has the majority of units. Period. There is no “forging a lasting peace” or “forming a coalition of allies.” The object of DIPLOMACY is to control the major portion of the world represented by the game board. The rules explicitly state that a player is not bound by his (sic) words and learning who to trust is part of the game. In other words, the “fine art of the backstab” is key to winning DIPLOMACY. DIPLOMACY is a very ruthless game; there will be ONE winner, the person who controls the most units. Alliances continue precisely as long as they are useful.
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>>68315383
>We were wargamers, and DIPLOMACY players, and many of us were members of the “Castle and Crusade Society.” We were not a “true blue fellowship of Adventurers,” we were rivals for power. Usually friendly rivals, but rivals nonetheless. There was no trickery or double dealing in the dungeon, because such actions would be frankly suicidal; the dungeon was so dangerous that you could not afford to weaken your party. But in the larger game of political maneuvering, we were rivals. We were all going to build our own castles because there is only ONE Lord of a castle.
>Go and reread the section from the DIPLOMACY rules above. It is 172 words long, and it is a complete description of how negotiation works in the game. A good portion of those 172 words are taken up with mechanicals – how long the diplomacy period lasts, etc. But that’s it… that’s all there is. The actual hard and fast restrictions are very few, and “a player may say anything he wishes.” In other words, everything not forbidden is permitted! This is plainly the intent in this part of the rules, and we carried that assumption into D&D.
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>>68315383
>Furthermore, look at the actions that are possible; negotiate, deal, demand, threaten… in short, “role playing.” DIPLOMACY represents a fairly big chunk – not all, of course – of the sort of conversations a player character would have with an NPC. This makes the rule about “saying anything he wishes” even more important. And it’s more than just that players lie, so NPCs can too; more to the point, in DIPLOMACY both parties have their own interests in a conversation, so we expected in D&D that NPCs had things that they wanted too.
>Lastly – and perhaps most important – DIPLOMACY is a wargame, and when playing a wargame, it is assumed that playing well is a learnable skill. Therefore, if negotiation, intimidation, bluffing, and figuring out who you can and cannot trust is part of DIPLOMACY, and DIPOMACY is a wargame, then learning to negotiate, intimidate, bluff, and read people is part of the skill set that you’re trying to learn. A skill for “fast talk” or “bluff” is anathema to this sort of mindset; it would be like playing CHAINMAIL and making a “command army” roll to flank your enemy… rather than actually maneuvering your troops to do it! The reason D&D didn’t have rules for verbal skills was not, as has been so often, erroneously, and farcically stated, that we didn’t role play; rather, we actually DID bluff, and fast talk, and negotiate, et cetera, rather than “I roll on my DIPLOMACY skill.” If you wanted to use tactics, you learned tactics; if you wanted to learn negotiation, you learned to negotiate. The idea of having “skill points” instead of actually role playing was not even suggested.
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>>68315383
>Furthermore, I’m going to go as far as say that “skill points” for things like fast talk, diplomacy, bluff, etc., actually hamper rather than enhance role playing. Many rules sets I’ve seen suggest a “bonus for good role playing;” a +2 seems to be common. Well, if I have 8 or 10 skill points in “bluff,” and don’t role play at all, I’m going to consistently outperform a good role player who doesn’t have that many points.
>“I roll my BLUFF check” is NOT roleplaying. It is the OPPOSITE of roleplaying.
>Nobody is a born wargamer, and being a wargamer means that you will lose sometimes. For us, that included losing verbal encounters as well as physical ones. The notion of “we have to have rules so people who aren’t glib can play glib characters” would have been laughed to scorn as much as the idea of “we have to have a “MAKE GOOD CHESS MOVE” skill so that people who are poor chess players don’t lose.”
>You want to be good at something, practice. Otherwise – tough Shoot.
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>>68321780
That post was basically gary answering the orc baby question. He had to answer other peoples questions so hes not going to waste everyones time debating some random asshat who thought garys opinion was wrong.
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>>68321888
But Diplo victories are explicitly a thing?
Or did that get added in later?
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>>68321924
Nobody is a born wargamer, and being a wargamer means that you will lose sometimes. For us, that included losing verbal encounters as well as physical ones. The notion of “we have to have rules so people who aren’t glib can play glib characters” would have been laughed to scorn as much as the idea of “we have to have a “MAKE GOOD CHESS MOVE” skill so that people who are poor chess players don’t lose.”
Haha, autist btfo

I've said it before and I'll say it again: The asperger-ridden chromosome circus that ended up populating the RPG crows had nothing at all in common with the genres creators.
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>>68313927
>for all players are, after all is said and done, human
Fucking anthropocentric bigot.
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>>68322401
What if there was an "attack" skill and you just had to roll it? Haha can you imagine
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>>68321924
>>“I roll my BLUFF check” is NOT roleplaying. It is the OPPOSITE of roleplaying.
Absolutely based individual.
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>>68313300
r e t i n u e
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>>68313557
I believe that you actually think this would happen.
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>>68322669
Precisely because you are not roleplaying the combat and rolling dice is not roleplaying.

Maybe you think you are much more clever than you actually are.
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>>68322669
You can`t accurately simulate the physical situation of braining a 3m tall orc chief with a warhammer, so simulating it with a die is acceptable.

You CAN simulate the act of bluffing your way past a guard.

You are a brainlet.
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>>68313508
>true greatness
Like what? The clusterfuck of ivory tower design that was 3e? The "let's not even pretend that anything other than combat matters" 4e? The total shitshow that's 5e?
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>>68322669
He specifically says this applies to verbal skills as they are something that can be reasonably practiced at and learned and used as part of the role-play at the table.
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>>68322821
Gygax was removed before our Lord and savior 2e came into being.
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>>68314519
>the dual-classing/multiclassing split when the latter is objectively superior
You mean the multiclassing that was thrown away and replaced with dual-classing(now called multiclassing) in later editions?
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>>68322826
Imagine being such a pussy that you can't even pretend to fight someone
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>>68322891
>thrown away
Renamed and slightly buffed to Gestalt in 3e
Renamed and slightly nerfed to the Hybrid class system in 4e.

5e (so far) is the only one not to bring it back in some form.
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>>68322943
Many subclasses/archetypes are arguably analogous to dual-classing, and textbook multiclassing is easier than ever. There aren't even multiclass xp penalties or alignment restrictions to deal with.
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>>68323017
You're confusing the terms. Text book multiclassing in 5e is a massive buff to ad&d dual classing. It's arguable that some of archetype options are similar to ad&d multiclassing but it's somewhat stretching it as you tend to only get a gimped version of another class's features.
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>>68322844
Early 2e was just a cleaned up version of 1e for the most part. Towards the end it got in to real problems. But there was a lot of problems at TSR anyhow by that point.
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>>68315124
Honestly this is based as fuck, /tg/ memes and shit talks on Gygax way to much.
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>>68322351
In the 1959 version you can set a time limit before starting the game. If you do and time runs out then all surviving players draw.
The 1961 version has no draw. You can still set a time limit before starting the game, but if you do and time runs out then the player with the most units wins.
The 1971 version changes the optional time limit a bit, whether or not the player with the most units wins is set before the game. Implicitly there is no winner if the player with the most units doesn't win but it is ambiguous and you could interpret this as a draw.
The 1971 version also adds the rules for agreeing to a draw. The 1976, 1982, and 1992 versions have the same time limit and agreed draw rules as the 1971 version.
The 2000 version has the agreed draw of the 1971 version but throws out the optional time limit.

There is a sense, for games in general, that drawing is less than winning. The 1959 time limit draw is a sort of consolation from the game if something goes wrong out of game, so I wouldn't feel like it was a win.
If you want to take it as a win then you're welcome to.

In the 1971, 1976, 1982, 1992, and 2000 versions all use the term "share equally in a draw" to codify in the rules that drawing is less than winning.
In a 3-way draw, each player has a bigger share of the win than a player in a 4-way draw gets.
In a 2-way draw (lol), each player has a bigger share of the win than a player in a 3-way draw gets.
In a solo win, the winner has a bigger share of the win than a player in a 2-way draw gets.
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>>68322821
>The total shitshow that's 5e
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>>68322910
But can you do it while sitting at a table?
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>>68321888
>DIPLOMACY is a very ruthless game; there will be ONE winner, the person who controls the most units.
>>68323191
>The 1961 version has no draw. You can still set a time limit before starting the game, but if you do and time runs out then the player with the most units wins.
Sounds like Mornard (and Gygax, et al.?) played with the 1961 rules.
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>>68323412
>things were like that during a tiny time-window of my life should determine the way everything is done forever
That's pretty pathetic when you get down to it.
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>>68324549
Nostalgia is a fun motivator.
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>>68315124
I forgot about this interview. Damn that man was a genius. When are we getting our second genius to revolutionize everything again.
>>
>GameSpy: Have you had a chance to play or even look at some of the current Dungeons & Dragons games?

Gygax: I've looked at them, yes, but I'm not really a fan. The new D&D is too rule intensive. It's relegated the Dungeon Master to being an entertainer rather than master of the game. It's done away with the archetypes, focused on nothing but combat and character power, lost the group cooperative aspect, bastardized the class-based system, and resembles a comic-book superheroes game more than a fantasy RPG where a player can play any alignment desired, not just lawful good.

based gygax knows what rpgs are about, would hate pathfinder too, and also dark eye.
As a kraut roleplayer, the dark eye is the most german (and sadly the most popular) roleplaying game you can fucking imagine. There is more lore and rules to know then every fucking game i ever played
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>>68324740
Is actually liking things based on their own merit and letting your tastes evolve over time that weird?
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>>68324740
I'm sure this is a thing because that's one of the main draws of TTRPGS. Living out the fantasies from when you were a child.
But I don't get people obsessed with it. It's not even close to all-encompassing. I find new favorite movies, television, places to go, and new favorite songs and video games literally all the time and I'm a long ways from 12.
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>>68322728
>combat isn't roleplaying
I bet you think every fight in a movie or book is just two guys trying to hit each other in a figurative vacuum.

>>68322792
You can describe the gist of your action and then your character attempts to succeed—using a die roll. Mechanics like that are used to ensure consistency among character abilities and aptitudes, in or out of combat. Putting my own knowledge into my character's head is metagaming, and the fact that you need all this to be explained to you shows that you have no place calling anyone else a brainlet.
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>>68324937
Schwarze Auge creators made the new 40k rpg Wrath and Glory which is so bad even the 40krpg general basically abandoned it on release.
Is it just as bad?
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>>68324890
We had multiple geniuses revolutionizing things, it's just that we have a pretty big reactionary crowd so we keep winding back at every opportunity. Especially from players who never saw how bad the 80s actually were.
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>>68324991
>Is it just as bad?
It's a mediocre fantasy heartbreaker in terms of lore and rules, but very captivating aesthetics.
There's several pretty OK video games if you want to check it out casually.
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>>68324988
>I bet you think every fight in a movie or book is just two guys trying to hit each other in a figurative vacuum.
not him but comparing dnd (and roleplay in general) combat to that stuff is pretty dumb.
The minmaxing hybrid class magic user that makes buff power play while juggling 90 dice isnt gandalf holding his staff and making it bright while charging, anon
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>>68324988
>trying to hit each other in a figurative vacuum
In 90% of action movies, yes.
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>>68325008
What's an example? DnD has only been taking very small refinements, not doing anything revolutionary.
We still have all the bad games from the 80s and 90s like Vampire, GURPS, Exalted, and so-on.
I can only think of a handful of games that tried to break new ground with their mechanics while also having their gimmicks for a legitimate reason. (e.g. Dread and Cypher System: Legit. Phoenix Dawn Command, for the gimmick)

>>68325045
Are the games in English? I do speak German but I prefer not to do so.
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>>68316813
None of this matters.
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stop playing D&D
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>>68316155
Only autists have a problem understanding alignment.
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>>68320819
>"Gary, did any of you m-u characters have familiars? I know they had charmed characters and monsters, henchmen, armies, but what about a cat, or a toad?"
Just discovered this, how fucking based I'm astonished.
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>>68325114
The games are in English yes. They're called Drakensang.
As examples of innovation, you have everythig from skills to rules that actually work, to the idea of actual roleplaying. Nearly everything about rpgs has been introduced by someone other than Garry and company and often much to their chagrin.
They were all a bunch of "lol that's what my character would do", "I rob the party", "I stab the king" metagaming That Guys with almost no exception and proud of it.
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Gary's alignments make more sense when you define "Good" as "whatever the medieval Christian church (or Greyhawk equivalent thereof) said was just" instead of trying to bring secular morality into it. Like the "Light-Dark" dichotomy in Megami Tensei games, in which the church is absolutely not always "Good" by WotC-D&D standards. It just needs to be understood that TSR alignments are not the same as WotC alignments despite the shared names.
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>>68326289
This might be the most deluded and clueless take on
>old role-playing bad
I've ever seen
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>>68326315
>medieval Christian church
More like fundamentalist USA nutjobs. You know, the kind of people that fled to the Americas to escape being oppressed by the actual Christians.
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>>68326319
Not "old=bad" since most of the things mentioned happened almost immediately and even the most recent was more than 30 years ago.
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>>68313020
He'd have really liked 5e's use of Backgrounds, as he was a big fan of open-ended 'skill bundle' systems for character generation.
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>>68313020
He had enough brains in his head to not legally qualify as retarded, so I'd guess no.
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>>68326474
I dont think fundamentalist USA nutjobs have paladins that convert and then kill you anon.
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>>68316814
That is Gary Gygax you mong. He along with Dave Arneson invented D&D. Nu-Men Era was made Monte Cook, who along with Kevin Siembieda flew to Japan to eat bar-b-cued human penis.
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>>68325595
recommend a better dungeon crawler that isn't shit
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>>68315978
touche
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>>68313264
Pulling quotes from Martin.....
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>>68325595
I could forgive you for not being able to read original D&D but if you aren't able to run a decent game of it then you shouldn't be running anything.
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>>68313020
He's the definition of a grognard, so no he would not enjoy playing 5e. I think he would be happy that his creation has gotten as big as it is now.
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>>68326315
Just keep in mind that alignments exist in D&D because good, evil chaos and order are measurable forces.

If you want to play a game with moral relativism, go for it. The alignment system is really only there for the RP.
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>>68314999
>Probably would have loved 4e to death.
i like 4e but i cant see Garry getting behind it really. i think he would have enjoyed the teamwork design of the classes but that is it.
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>>68330874
He probably would have said the same thing Dave said about it. "I looks like a really fun D&D-themed DC comics game. I hope the fans enjoy it."
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>>68330995
garry was an odd guy from what ive gathered. he apparently played heavily homebrew versions of 1e and OD&D exclusively. If this is true (and im not misremembering shit) where is homebrew rules ever released?
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>>68314999
4e suffered from HP Bloat and crap monster mechanic which basically made it tediously unplayable at higher level without serious reworking.
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>>68326315

The real problem with alignments is that people get them backwards. By that, I mean people seem to think alignment should guide how one roleplays. When in actuality, the GM should judge a players alignment (and how the game system thus reacts to them) according to the way the player roleplays.

A player can say his character is neutral good. But if he acts chaotic evil, then that's how the GM should treat him in game mechanics where such matters.
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>>68331120
He ran a homebrewed whitebox OD&D from what ive heard. Some of his rules are in the pdf that was posted.
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>>68331285
But theres more to it than that in dnd since your alignment isnt just how your character acts but also which cosmic team youre on as well.
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>>68331429
That was for conventions. He ran 1e in his personal games.

>>68331120
>If this is true (and im not misremembering shit) where is homebrew rules ever released?
Not that I know of. His widow has a death-grip on all of his campaign notes because she's overestimated their value by at least an order of magnitude and won't sell them for a price anyone had offered.
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>>68331462
Alignment (in Blackmoor, not in Chainmail) began life as a mechanical restriction on when and how you could screw over other players.
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>>68315124
put me in the screencap
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>>68324890
D Vincent Baker, but he's for narrative storygames not D&D.
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>>68315383
>Never played any edition of D&D nor have I really touched any RPG's that could be considered old.
The state of this board. Bunch of millennial faggots and their storygames all of which suck ass (except for Apocalypse World).
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>>68317639
>Bullshit. If you really are so unimaginative that you can't see elven champions of their fey lords, or dwarven heirs to mystical secrets empowered by their ancestors, then you shouldn't be playing /tg/.
We're talking about Paladins, faggot, not whatever stupid "champion" horsecrap you are thinking of.
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>>68324988
>Putting my own knowledge into my character's head is metagaming,
My character's knowledge and my knowledge are one and the same. Prove me wrong. As long as I don't make references to technology that doesn't exist, I'm not metagaming. Get fucked.
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>>68313557
This is true
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>>68314686
Now I want to know that.
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>>68331120
>he apparently played heavily homebrew versions of 1e and OD&D exclusively
That's only when he ran D&D. He'd made his own system called Lejendary Adventures which was published through Troll Lord Games, but that all went kaput when Gail killed all the agreements Gygax had going on.
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>>68325677
this is a hobby riddled with autists
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>>68331959
dilated and seething
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>>68332805
>He'd made his own system called Lejendary Adventures
And he stopped playing it after a few years and went back to AD&D
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>>68331959
Explain how as a level 1 adventurer, you would know the secrets of how to kill dragons, their strengths and weaknesses, or how to effectively counter a Succubus. You cant use excuses like you read it in a book or someone told you, because that is generally very specialized information.
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>>68333453
Because I have a rough idea of how to do it. If the ref wants me to be wrong he'll change things or throw something homebrew at me.
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>>68333513
Your rough idea doesnt mean your character has a rough idea. If you cant explain how your character knows by legitimate means then your metagaming.
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>>68333554
He knows because I know. My character knows what i know. They're an imitation of me.
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>>68333562
At this point your characters are never going to be accepted into games if you act like that, and ill feel bad for any GM that does and puts up with it.
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>>68333597
>and ill feel bad for any GM that does and puts up with it.
That's how Dave's Blackmoor campaigns and Gary's Greyhawk campaign were played.
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>>68313073
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>>68314537
>D&D is an idea and not an edition
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>>68313020
Gary Who Actually Plays The Game: keeps playing OD&D with houserules
Gary Who Sells The Game: hell yes
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>>68318345
>trash-tier fantasy
Why don't you support your claim and provide some examples of why, say, LOTR or Conan are bad, and what you think is good?
>>
From the information I have gathered over the years looking into original D&D and Gary Gygax I would say that I don't think he was necessarily trying to kill the players and that stereotype given to him is unfair. I would say he's main focus was just plain old dungeon crawling, smash down doors and killing whatever was on the other side, every so often you would meet a talking statue or find a strange magical item.

I could never imagine Gary Gygax every running a game where players had two page backstories, long drawn out roleplaying, ingame politics, deep game setting and the whole session taking place inside the king's court room.
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>>68323191
>http://pc.gamespy.com/articles/538/538820p2.html
>>68323412

No matter what rules you play under, winning is pretty much impossible as long as all the players in the game are good/experienced.

Draws were just a house-ruled thing that made it's way into the official rules.
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>>68320819

>Considering that the entities served by the Evil clergy are far from divine, I wouldn't say that the deities of the druid class are not more divine than demons and devils, but... The general concept conveyed by the admonition regarding the ecclesiastical servants of the [True] Neutral alignment position is this: In the fantasy milieu, only the druid class adheres to the precepts of this alignment. thus only druids, not other sorts of clerics can claim this alignment. In short, if a cleric is truly neutral, he is per se a druid.

For fuck's sake man. He had some really stupid ideas.
>>
So if I wanted to play something to give me the feel of old D&D, stuff that Gygax would have played, should I play AD&D or there is some retro clone that fixed mistakes and such?
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>>68335473
Join us in /OSRG/, friend:
>>68325950
I'd recommend B/X Essentials.
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>>68331812
Pretty sure he ran 1e for conventions considering thats what it was written for.
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>>68332998
Hmmm. A bit strange that he'd write so many books for a game he suddenly refused to play, or that he'd go back to AD&D which he's said he has some amount of distaste for compared to OD&D and Basic D&D.
It's almost as if you're talking out your ass.
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>>68338182
>A bit strange that he'd write so many books for a game he suddenly refused to play,
Money
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>>68331911
Time marches on. I was playing music at work and one of my peers commented on the song that was on, and it turned out that he'd never heard of Duran Duran (and didn't recognize any of their hits by name). To me that's crazy, but their heyday was well before he was born and I'm sure there's plenty of shit from the '50s that I'm clueless about. I do think it's worth checking out old school D&D for to its influence as the foundation of all commercial RPGs, but not everybody has the same sort of time for or interest in the history of things, and I'm sure somebody would say the same thing to me about old black and white films (or silent ones!) and the movie industry. Role-playing games have the benefit of not being very old, so the spectrum of time they cover is relatively small (though playing--or even just digesting--an RPG is a lot more of an intensive process than just watching a movie), but speaking broadly, the shit that's important at any one period of time is shrinkingly small when compared the vast gulf of human history, and people only have but so much time on their hands to gaze into the past.
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>>68335374
Druids confirmed for shinto-esque weirdoes.
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>>68335473
>So if I wanted to play something to give me the feel of old D&D
If you honestly do, you'd best stay the fuck away from the revisionist pitholle that is OSR and find some actual geezers.
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>>68338730
Seconding this, the OSR is more for once you have experience with old D&D editions and know exactly what you would like to play with. Most of these retroclones are the author’s houserules rather than an actual retroclone.
>>
Threadly reminder that Gygax was not the DM-fiat improv king everyone likes to think he was.
Gygax's background was in wargaming. He ran local wargame groups for decades, until Braunstein started changing his trajectory. He and his group spent a lot of time doing iterative testing on their own wargame rulesets, and what became ODnD was originally Gygax's first medieval wargame ruleset (Chainmail) applied to a variant game of Braunstein.
When Gygax says you don't need rules and to make your own, he means in a concrete and mathematical sense, not DM fiat or freeform rules-lite roleplaying. To Gygax RPGs were Games as much as they were fantasy story simulators.
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>>68333623
Counterpoint, the publishing and marketing of modern RPGs makes that kind of information too readily available even to players who wouldn't by experience know how to kill dragons or etc. While it is in classic spirit to adjust to your group's existing game knowledge, it's hard to factor that out into the game's audience at large so the baseline of separating character and player information is held standard.
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Moldvay Basic (B/X) is maybe the best place to start old school D&D. Original D&D is half-written and AD&D is kludgy with needless clutter. Moldvay Basic is the most succinct of the Basic editions other than Holmes Basic, but that only goes up to 3rd level and isn't as polished.

You can find pdfs of Moldvay Basic floating around (check out the trove in the /osrg/ thread). Alternately, my understanding is that B/X Essentials or Old School Essentials (its newest edition) tries to be a true-to-Moldvay-Basic-rules-as-possible with only a reformatted presentation.
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>>68335374
How is that stupid? Clerics worship gods. Druids worship nature. If you are a guy who worships nature, you are a druid.
Or do you just not like that he didnt have true neutral gods in his campaign outside of nature spirits and such that are reserved for druids?

To be honest I like the way he explains this. And i think it should also apply to the paladin. I hate it in later games where they have paladins of every alignment. Like for fuck sake a paladin is by definition lawful and good. If you want to have a comparable class for another alignment give it a different name because its not a paladin.
>>
>>68339157 is meant to respond to >>68335473
>>
More I read about that Gygax more I hate him.
He was a wargamer first and roleplayer second. While policies of TSR and WOTC can and should be criticized (especially removing ''devil'' etc due to satanic scare) Gygax by all means was mediocre. There is a reason why most of his work after being kicked out of TSR faded into obscurity.

Also he was a typical boomer faggot. I always felt Arneson was far more chill.
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>>68339002
Gary straight up said that publishing his raw campaign notes would be shitty because they were your regular average notes and that improv and spur of the moment changes were what made his campaign fun.
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>>68316290
Dude, its like you have never played 5e. Martials can BTFO casters at early levels, just like AD&D. The difference is in AD&D casters were literal destroyer of worlds at high levels, where as in 5e the classes stay fairly competitive.
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>>68339182
Gygax was a wargamer before commercial RPGs even existed, and even if you think RPGs have passed him by, they could only do so by standing on his shoulders, so you should still respect his contributions. It's certainly possible to give his point of view too much deference, but I think it's a perspective that's worth noting; it's just not the word of god.
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>>68339280
I'm talking about their early-game scaling, spells/day, and ease of use in the eyes of a boomer gamer like gygax, not the upper limit on casters' power

The question was whether gygax would be annoyed by players having to wait 3 levels for subclass features
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>>68319284
That's the opposite of what he said. Variety comes from races that actually have different mechanics and flavor and aren't just x-colored humans. And the entire point is that other races are often more powerful, not less, than humans. They just have more restrictions due to this fact, and it's implied that the setting is a human centric one (LotR, or any setting ever actually) which is why the classes are averaged around humans and not elves or dwarves.
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>>68339360
It's like Citizen Kane, you can't deny that it changed things in a big way, but it's hardly the brand new original masterpiece of cinema it was back then.
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>>68339582
You can make races feel different without placing arbitrary restrictions on them though.
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>>68339280
This is wrong. Casters are objectively far more frontloaded than in adnd. Average fighter hp in advanced: maybe 6.5 accounting for a decent Con. Average MU hp: closer to 2.5. The proportional difference is there compared to 5e. And the fucking amount of spells, I don't need to repeat other anon's point.
As for the late game power-scaling, yes casters become gods, but they do it slower than fighters which is a big deal. Also you're forgetting the magic item and money focus of advanced as well. Fighters are geared to be able to use a wider variety of powerful items like magic plate, rods of lordly might, vorpal swords, etc. MUs get wands and shit, but have to sacrifice a lot (xp, gold, time, spells) to make a scroll for example, not to mention the fact that they have to FIND every spell they learn. Moreover, comparing a max level MU at lv 30 or whatever to a lv 16 or 20 fighter is disingenuous.
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>>68339649
Yeah you can do whatever you want, it's dnd and depends on the setting, dm, etc. The point is adnd does this and 3-5e does not.
Also simply don't be a bitch. The restrictions make building a character more fun and allow Gary to give elves cool shit (it makes sense they have cool shit, they're ancient and magical). Some players whine but non-retards understand it makes the game better in both mechanics and flavor.
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>>68339729
I don't see how placing those restrictions on them allows elves to be given more cool shit then they would have otherwise. It's not really like the restrictions are this great balancing factor. The fact that the elf wizard didn't have the chance to be a paladin doesn't really make them worse at being a wizard.
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>>68339785
Have you looked at the books and/or played? Be honest.
It's more about the elf only being able to go up to a certain level as the classes they are allowed to be (i.e. not being an all-powerful wizard casting 9th level spells every day and abusing the fact that those spells effectively don't age them) About dwarves with high magic resist not also being mages that get to be immune to spells. About encouraging multi-classing for demi-humans due to level restrictions so that an elf (fighter/MU for example) plays more like an elf and less like a human.
And continuing with the elf example if they JUST got immunity to sleep/charm, +1 with bows and swords, bigger age categories, darkvision, the ability to find concealed areas easier, and didn't need to sleep but were otherwise humans, it would be busted. Instead that comes with a price and that price means it's easier to stack abilities on races and up the flavor.
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>>68339785
Because removing any sense of structure renders racial differences subjective and incorporeal. If everyone's special, nobody is. Conversely, working within (or even against) a set of restrictions makes every character stand out while also informing players of what they can and can't "do" with ease.
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>>68339182
I too read that Kotaku article 2 weeks ago fellow gamer
>>68339202
Yes, but Gary's improv was informed by literal decades of playing memorization-focused rules-heavy wargames and homebrewing the living shit out of said systems. DnD is only as uncomplicated as it is because the material adapted from Chainmail for the first Blackmoor campaigns came from an afterthought fantasy dueling supplement.
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>>68340144
>I too read that Kotaku article 2 weeks ago fellow gamer
I wrote that without reading it, can you link it please?
>>68339360
Another reason I like Arneson more.
Yeah Garry is wargaming faggot allright I mean in early gencons you could ''compete'' with other player groubs and modules would have a ''winner'' based on how well they performed compared to other players who played the same module.
Not even delving into the fact the fucker made the con right at the shithole he lived in
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>>68328739
Doesn't matter, you will still play D&D no matter what anybody recommends, because you are a shill. "Dungeon crawler" isn't a genre of RPG, it's a style of gameplay a GM likes and implements. You can turn CoC into a dungeon crawler and peoole have done it before.
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>>68340175
I don't want to unironically link a Kotaku article itt but they did a biopic on Arneson about 2 weeks ago if you actually want to read it.
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>>68322401
>The notion of “we have to have rules so people who aren’t glib can play glib characters” would have been laughed to scorn
That sounds pretty dumb. If social influence is an important part of the game, it should have rules beyond "your arguments work if the GM wants them to work".

>The asperger-ridden chromosome circus that ended up populating the RPG crows had nothing at all in common with the genres creators.
Genre's creators weren't exactly the sharpest tools in the shed, so this is hardly a bad thing.
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>>68317761
Bullshit. He had legit criticisms.
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>>68322792
Anon, this person obiviously can't do that otherwise he wouldn't be posting such retarded shit
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>>68328739
Shadow of the Demon Lord
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>>68340144
I dont get what youre saying? Are you saying Gary wasnt good at gm fiat because he had decades of practice?
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>>68324890
We won't, because D&D will always play it safe from now on, and 80% of the people who play TTRPGs just play D&D
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>>68340175
Tournament modules were a thing for decades and werent just at gencon. And was he supposed to set up a con somewhere further away or what?
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>>68315124
>Gygax bitching about D&D being too rule intensive
>The fucker responsible for rule bloat to ever show up in the first place not in just D&D, but the entire fucking hobby
>Has the audacity to pretend its the fault of others
200% Gygax
The fact you people gleefully ignore his faults to the mess he made (just like he did for his entire life and "career") is fucking disgusting.
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>>68339360
>his shoulders
Arnesson's shoulders.
Also, modern psychology stands on Freud's shoulders, but it doesn't mean Freud wrote anything that is currently useful. Modern physics owes a lot to Newton, but Newton but that doesn't make Newtonian physics correct or Newton a pleasant person.
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>>68340791
The rules bloat came up during 2e's cycle, when he was already out of the company. That was 15 years of stable rules and no additional rules being added after the white box supplements.
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>>68340791
Gygax himself later on said that he put so many rules into AD&D. But the reason he did that was so the game could cover most scenarios so that it could be run fairly at conventions. He didnt use half the rules in AD&D and he told people to play original and basic in their home games. Also rules crunch was popular with other games at the time as well.
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>>68339690
Something people tend to forget about AD&D is that fighters were actually useful there, especially if you used non-weapon proficiency. They had an actual chance to make their saves, their AC allowed them to stand toe to toe with level-appropriate threats and their proficiency made them the noticeable expert both in combat and outside.
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>>68340404
>That sounds pretty dumb.
It's even dumber when you remember that D&D has always had social mechanics.
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>>68340904
Most of the rules in the AD&D book came from the white box supplements and chainmail. So, they weren't really new rules.
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>>68340904
>later said
And we have reason to trust him? Especially since taking the claim at face value would not be very charitable towards him. "cover most scenarios" is something the rules most obviously did not - otherwise he'd have made the consistent and inclusive, instead of a chaotic mess of constant patches an so singularly focused on Gary's interests at the time.
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>>68340665
I'm saying being able to spirit up a valid mathematical rule to simulate the intended effect of an interaction in-game is very different from "I rolled an 18, I want to suplex the great white shark"
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>>68340964
Maybe. I cant remember, did original have weapon speed factor and bard class? Im pretty sure there were at least a few new things in 1e. But that other anon is right, the rules bloat in 1e was nothing compared to 2e.
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>>68340984
Why would we not have a reason to trust him? Especially since he made that claim several timea later on in his life when he clearly didnt care to much about his reputation.
Also what adventure scenarios do you think AD&D doesnt cover?
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>>68341040
Bards are from OD&D. Speed factors are a conversion of chainmail man-to-man rules if I remember right.
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>>68341493
Pretty sure bards werent in OD&D. I dont even think they were in basic.
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>>68344020
TSR published it as optional material for OD&D before basic was even out.
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>>68344100
Published in what?
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>>68344322
The Strategic Review
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>>68344376
Those arent exactly canon rules anon. Same as the rules published in Dragon.
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>>68338182
>A bit strange that he'd write so many books for a game he suddenly refused to play,
pphhhht. Taken a look at Numenera lately? Mr. Cook has moved on to other things a long time ago.
Lets not talk about the many projects of Magic's original designer Richard Garfield


I'm not calling Gary the same as everyone else, but little stints of pushing another game only to circle back to the original (or something else) is very common.
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>>68315124
>/pol/ posters complain nu RPGs are too story focused, are too rules lite, are too edgy and should just be lawful good fighter simulators
>gygax says he wants more story, more cooperation, less rules, more freedom
>BASED GYGAX BTFOING THE NU RPG SJWS! HE AGREES WITH US!

Can someone explain this thread? Having difficulty following
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>>68344466
Except that AD&D was explicitly a collection of all the rules that had been published for OD&D.
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>>68344981
wow. you're, like, so bad at reading threads. I can't even understand how you live your life. It's just, like, so dumb.
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>>68340699
>And was he supposed to set up a con somewhere further away or what?
Not in a complete shithole where it was only convinient for him personally to make it.
You know, so you can have easy access to the place and thus go there.
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>>68340904
He later also said bunch of other shit.
Pro-tip: Gygax spend his entire fucking life changign his opinion, usually by doing a 180 turn and at a drop of hat at that. So it wasn't even evolution of his own standards or convictions over the years, but just impulsive behaviour he had.
Whic is part of the reason why I'm always disgusted when people dig out any given interview with him (and only that specific one they need) and claim Gygax supported/booed at X.
That guy was a fucking flag waving on the wind, always going in different direction. You all need to finally stop treating his words like a fucking gospel already.
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>>68340404
>because the dm wants them to work
In a way I get what you're saying but think about it. There ARE rules about it, it's just played a little faster and looser just like most of first edition. It's intended that most traps/encounters etc have more of a puzzle feel to them, and are meant to be worked around by explicit player action and not just "roll a die and find out how good you did." Secret doors for example, are subject to elves getting a roll on them, and roll-under checks can be useful to, but ultimately once players know there's a secret door there it's on the dm to describe their surroundings and the players to perform specific action based on that (searching for a loose brick, prying it open with a lever, whatever).
Plus the alternative for a system with light social rules is 5e which fucking sucks. Hate persuasion/deception checks and the way most gms handle it. My players in 5e often look at me blankly when I tell them "okay you got a 20 but what did you SAY?"
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>>68313020
>Would
Is he dead or something?
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>>68344981
>posters complain nu RPGs are too story focused, are too rules lite
Dunno wtf you're talking about desu
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>>68345041
9 point alignment and potion miscibility.
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>>68324890
>When are we getting our second genius to revolutionize everything again.
Never. In every field and era, we only ever really get one.
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>>68326289
Are you genuinely this fucking delusional or is it just bait?
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>>68345262
What the fuck are you talking about? Are you saying that gary changed his mind on the reason he did something in the past?
Thats fucking stupid. Im going to need a source on that. And it better not be a fucking quote from the sorcerers scroll where gary is clearly in marketing mode and is not giving his honest opinion.
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>>68313020
probably, he was a big fan of making shit up on the fly and 5e is full of "the DM decides what happens/how this works whenever you use it" bullshit.
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>>68333562
>I metagame extensively, and avoid roleplaying; all characters are just me.
Who even let you through the fucking door?
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>>68344981
>I bitch about /pol/
>I am also too fucking retarded to understand the discussion
Gee, what a huge surprise.
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>>68321049
>An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth is by no means anything but Lawful and Good. Prisoners guilty of murder or similar capital crimes can be executed without violating any precept of the alignment.
>A paladin is qualified to be judge and jury--assuming he is acting according to the oath he took to gain his status
oh fuck yeah
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>>68344466
>TSR published
the strategic review.

Nothing in >>68344100 is false.
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>>68345790
Different anon, but I think what he meant was the infamous indecisivness of Gary. Each time he was asked the same questions, he would give different answers, depending on nothing in particular. So when you bother to read interviews with him, especially one after another, it's getting really fucking confusing. As if he couldn't make up his mind.
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>>68349910
That's what happens when you smoke weed every day, do cocaine twice a week, and have a prescription for classified glow in the dark stuff.
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Why was bard originally a badass prestige class with high level requisites, anyway?
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>>68350009

Because anything that could both use skills AND cast spells was considered a huge deal for some reason. Meanwhile virtually everyone can be a Priest, which was almost always better.
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>>68350009
Because the game had signs of being poorly designed all over the place and wasn't really play-tested in any sensible way.
So the same problem as every single fucking TTRPG up until mid-to-late 90s.
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>>68349910
sources?
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>>68350009
Arbitrary AD&D-ism. In OD&D you started as a Bard like any other class.
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>>68345547
>9 point alignment
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>>68315124
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friendly reminder there are other games to play than dnd.

>>68313035
this

>>68314672
I bet more new players know who matt mercer is instead of gary gygax.
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>>68355494
Obviously, it's why the new players can suck my left nut
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>>68315284
>Without him and his contributions, tabletop would be very different from what it is now
... for a BETTER of the entire hobby.
3/4 of issues that pestered the hobby all the way until early 90s was the influence of Gygax and his retarded approach to gaming as such. And the whole "muh tradition" in D&D is pretty much his bullshit elevated to the status of Gospel.
Fuck Gygax for hogging the spot for so many years as some sort of guru. He was an early contributor and that's where his fine points ended. Anything past '83 mark can go fuck itself.



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