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Do you include both in your setting? How? What's the difference for u?
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>>67191611
Drow are fucking garbage tier. Entirely edgy for the sake of being edgy, with no reason or logic behind it. Moustache twirling Saturday morning villains.
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>>67191611
>Do you include both in your setting?
usually one or the other.
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>>67191611
Drow are just a stupid word for dark elves.
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>>67191611
Sure
>Dark Elves
Elves corrupted unto evil by otherworldly forces, be they demonic, undead or unknowable
>Drow
Elves cursed by the elven gods for their betrayal in starting a civil war, now they live in exile underground

So in this instance, Drow can also be classified as Dark Elves, but that may not always be the case on an individual basis as not all Dark Elves are Drow. And if you don't want the elf civil war thing, just use Ebberon Drow instead.
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>>67196863
>Elves cursed by the elven gods for their betrayal in starting a civil war, now they live in exile underground

Is that their current lore?
I thought the old lore was that the sun elves started the war by attacking one of the dark-elf/drow kingdoms, the moon elves who were between the sun elves and another drow kingdom said "hey drow neighbors, maybe everything will be better if we just let the sun elves take over?" and the drow said fuck that, and started a march straight into sun elven lands, slaughtering anyone who got in their way, including said moon elves.
Which of course led to ALL dark elves/drow being seen as murderous crazy bastards.
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>>67196950
Are you implying any surface elf retelling would admit culpability?
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>>67196991
It's hard to tell.
We know the last of the elven wars was something like 8,000 years prior to the current timeline and that war literally happened because the Elven Court (composed of people all chosen by the gods for their clarity) declared that it was the kingdom/empire of sun elves responsible or all of the wars/battles that had destroyed much of elven kind.
Said elves rebelled against this decision refused reparations and the ensuing war basically annihilated the last of the great elven kingdoms before Myth Drannor would rise up some 4000 years later.

So presumably that would be in a history book somewhere, but it's so old who knows how it's been bastardized and rewritten.
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>>67197208
Logically, contemporary High Elves (or Grey Elves stuck in their snooty island towers), would at least attempt to disassociate themselves from the old Sun and Moon Courts like the British do for the evils of English Empire, like publicly treating the English as an entirely separate people at times regardless of feelings held in private.

The Drow retelling wouldn't be trusted either mind you. Even if Araushnee wasn't entirely at fault in the dickery of the Seldarine or their war, her now being insane removes any sensible ruminations of true understanding. Especially since the Drow are bent over backward toward revenge regardless of right or wrong making actions taken by the surface to deter them in the right regardless of their supposed victimization.
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In a war between Eberron scorpion Drow and traditional Faerun spider Drow, who would win?
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>>67191905
In other words miles more interesting than dark elves
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>>67197941
Depends on how traditional and fighting conditions.
Old Faerun Drow with +2 or +3 adamantine gear (or even augmentations) and a power level where even the lowest ranking soldier can be a level 2 fighter, who will have a level 5+ fighter/wizard sergeant, and a level 7+ fighter/cleric for every two squads, you're looking at a lot of power in the Faerun side assuming they can fight in conditions where the adamantine doesn't get fucked over.
Post-Salvatore but pre-3e they have a lot more demonic assistance as well.
3e Faerun Drow are too busy killing themselves and each other to be effective.
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>>67198240
Also depends on where. Especially if using the old rule of Drow equipment breaking down in sunlight.
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>>67191611
i don't have any designation of elves, they are who they want to be or were somehow forced into being.
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>>67197436
>Evils of the British Empire
Go fuck yourself cuck
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>>67196950
Muh lore is a bit rusty but as I always understood it the official (and therefore no doubt biased as fuck) version is that it was all a plot by LOLth to displace Vhaerun as the main Dark elf deity (then just swarthy fuckers as opposed to pitch black) by manipulating them into going full stupid evil by consorting with demons n'shit for the purpose of getting vengeance against the objectively nasty but technically not-quite evil sun elf empire which had been nom nomming the other elf states over the last few millennia through dynastic intrigue/military strong-arming.
The sun elves provided the set up for the wars by being expansionist imperial shits but the drow getting banished to the underdark was all their own/LOLth's doing and while it gets mentioned way more often it's only a aide show to other shit happening at the same time, like all the fucking high elf kingdoms murdering each other.
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>>67191611
drow are specifically dark elves in the various D&D settings and have established lore. Dark elves are generic and can have any lore
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>>67191611
Dark Elves are elves who have adapted to their underdark environment, their darkvision becoming enhanced, a tendency towards albinism, and reduced stature to better cope with the narrow caves of their homes.

Most just don't want to leave the underdark, viewing it as their domain as much as forest elves view their woods.

Drow are just a particular nation of Dark Elves, twisted and tainted by their worship of demonic forces: most famously Lolth, but others such as Zuggtmoy, Juiblex, Grazz't or Malcanthet are also known in their spiralling abyssal-tainted cities.
Thanks to their demon worship, Drow need (or at least prefer) vast numbers of slaves. While these include individuals from other underdark kingdoms, the Drow favour those from the surface the best. So much so that most people think Drow are the only kind of dark elves.
The dark skin of the drow has had many origins: said to be a curse from their former archfey gods, the demonic taint from their many eldritch pacts, soot from the magma rivers that are said to lie within their realm, or simply tattoos given to them early on.
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>>67191611
What ruleset/setting has both? I'm sure Drow are DnD only and DnD doesn't have dark elves
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>>67191611
Drow is a curse word and a blanket term that refers to dark elves, boggarts, fomorians, and various other corruptions of normal fey
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>>67191611
>Dark Elves vs Drow
Isn't that basically the same?
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>>67203216
Generally Drow are underground
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>>67203403
And it seems to be the only difference.
This, and maybe Drow dark skin.
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I actually hate D&D Drow. Worst take on dark elves I've ever encountered
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>>67203794
Most Drow in fantasy settings are just edgy and evil for the sake of being edgy and evil desu
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ITT: Zoomers who are unaware of R.A. Salvatore's work shitting on Drow

Hate him all you like for marrysue drizzt, but it was also Salvatore who transformed the regular dungeon npc evil elves and gave them a complex culture, society, traditions, expanded on the religion.

What he did was really revolutionary back in the day.
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>>67204604
>What he did was really revolutionary back in the day.
He created an entire culture simply so that Drizzt could look good.
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>>67204632
I really don't think so, Drizzt wasn't even planned to be a major character in the books. Books about Menzoberranzan/Drizzt series come after Ice Wind Dale series, where the marrysue drow was a sidekick character. Wulfgar was supposed to be main character, but the interest in Drizzt forced him to create Menzoberranzan in the first place
He also helped developing the early 90s 2nd ed sourcebooks about drow, also helped in (imho) much awesome series, war of the spider queen, which examined the drow without le good characters.

I'm not saying Salvatore is a good writer, but he was a good creator. We really take things granted imho,What George R R Martin, Glen Cook etc did was also important, but today we except shit to be grimdark/not black and white/realistic.
Same with Salvatore, nowadays you expect such stuff to be detailed already, but it was really something new in its day and age (Similar to Dragonlance novels, but thats a whole different topic)
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>Do you include both in your setting? How?

Drow ARE Dark Elves and honestly I like how batshit insane and campy they are as a race. If you try to make their society ''realistic'' you are doing it wrong.
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>>67204685
>also helped in (imho) much awesome series
>war of the spider queen

This is where you lost me and I laughed out loud. WotSQ was a pile of feces wirtten by people who didn't understand drow.
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>>67204604
I would take Elaine Cunningham over Salvatore personally. At least she isn't afraid to tackle other drow relligions (like the worship of Vhaerun and Eilistraee) and she at least tries to present the drow as "evil, but not batshit insane and we know where they are coming from". She makes the drow looks less like a monomyth. Salvatore is just Lolth this, Menzoberrenzan that - and forget about any moral complexity with regards to the drow society.
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>>67204759
Meh, it had its chining examples, compared to the FR novel series I would say it was definitely above average. But you might be right on what you said last. Some parts were bit off

I think that might be the problem of FR, good worldbuilding but shit novels, still I would put it above salvatore or greenwoods work
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>>67204781
Isn't there a drow city where the men revolted and formed a wizard council? Would like to see a story there
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>>67204798
Yeah, Sshamath I think. It's a fun place.
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>>67191611
Drow are the nobility of Dark Elves. It works like this, in Dark Elf society everyone is a slave to someone higher up the food chain. Nobody is free except the Empress and the closest to being free is to be one step below the Empress which is what Drow are. So basically it’s an entire society formed around the idea that the weak should serve the strong.
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>>67204841
your homebrew?
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>>67204798
Which in itself is weird because outside of Lolth cities, which weren't supposed to be the majority in the first place, the original DotU says every drow city is run essentially by two groups.
The Matron/Divine houses have their own politics and handle domestic affairs as well as the military.
The Merchant/Arcane houses have their own politics and handle foreign affairs as well as macro economics of drow society.
Hell it even says Lolth worshippers in those cities are salty about the fact merchants can have as much power as they can (if not more), because the merchants tend to be men who use arcane magic and actually treat non drow as people instead of slaves.
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>>67191611
I just have Dark elves live underground in huge ass bunkers, cause Dwarves tried killing all the elves.
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My Drow were saved from a kingdom wide plague by a demoness who instills pride, jealousy, and lust into their souls in return for saving them, she became their godess
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>>67191905
They are the tg entry in the 90s extreme bleeding edge fad of the time. Everyone got one. Comics had superheroes in leather jackets and ammo pouches. Video games had Leather trenchcoat anime sword guys. Music got NuMetal. And tabletop gaming got Drow.
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>>67203216
I always take drow to be specifically the TSR/DnD creation fleshed out by Salvatore. While Dark elf could be anything involving evil elves to just dark skinned elves depending on setting or author.
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>>67191905
in other words the best kind of villain
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>>67196950
what do you mean by "their current lore"? a fictional thing is whatever you say it is.
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>>67203689
Drow are usually crueler and more backstabby. Also Drow have greyish skin and red eyes, while a Dark Elf has brown or tanned skin and several eye colors, but also usually just red.

Drow are also short as fuck, which sets them apart from other elves.
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>>67191611
I don't really follow the standard phylogeny of elves. It doesn't fit very well with the cosmological structure of my setting.

That said, if I were to include either, I would include dark elves. Drow have too much accessory worldbuilding stuck to them for a clean insertion. Dark elves are... pretty empty as an archetype beyond the Drow and totally-not-Drow. Having dark elves amounts to having elves with dark skin and light hair, with some sort of authoritarian social ordering.
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>>67191611
>Do you include both in your setting?
I'd like to, but it's difficult given the overlap between the two. It's even worse since I'm actually considering adding two dark elf races and drow.
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>>67212414
From what i've heard, there are no more dark elves. Dark elves are what drow used to be.
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>>67212765
>Having dark elves amounts to having elves with dark skin and light hair, with some sort of authoritarian social ordering.
That's drow. Dark elves are more often the opposite palette wise, and only vaguely carry the implication of being morally questionable
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>>67215840
That's the FR lore. Drow started off as dark skinned jungle elves who evolved fairly quickly among the elven types, and while they in theory had the strongest military might of the elves, their culture led to several tribes all branching off to do their own thing instead of forming a mega-kingdom/empire like the Sun Elves would do.

IIRC their old type is now just referred to as "dark elves" because much of their history before being turned into Drow is lost (and the Sun Elves would prefer to keep it that way).
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>>67215959
Which realm is this supposed to be?
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>>67216336
Forgotten Realms?
IIRC there were two big dark elven kingdoms: peaceful and scholarly Miyerithar in High Forest that worshipped Eilistraee and militaristic Illiythir to the south that worshipped Vhaeraun. Araushnee - or Lolth was at this point a largely forgotten boogeyman. The problem was, the ruthless, expansionist Sun Elven empire attacked peaceful and nice Miyerithar first - pretty much for shits and giggles and wiped it almost entirely from the map. And Illiythir - who was just looking for a reason to go to war with Sun Elves came with the "fraternal assisstance" and started using more and more underhanded tactics - up to coming back to the worship of Araushnee - now Lolth. You can guess the rest. Sun Elves who pretty much started this whole mess have been condemned by Corellon himself and their empire was destroyed.
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>>67216539
Right, the Crown Wars. Which book is this found in? I got some serious research to do on this.
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>>67216587
Probably AD&D "Cormanthyr", Greenwood's "Grand History of the Realms" and "Demihuman Deities". Also Lisa Smedman's "Lady Penitent" series makes this a plot point.
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>>67216587
They were first described in Cormanthyr: Empire of Elves. Later books would add more details and clear things up.

For example Cormanthyr says the dark disaster was either caused by extremists within Miyeritar who would rather see their kindgom destroyed than fall under enemy hands, OR it was caused by the elves of Aryvandaar/Vyshaantar Empire because it was essentially a test of a new magical weapon/spell.

3e's Grand History of the Realms and Lost Empires of Faerun confirm it was in fact Aryvandaar/Vyshaantar that did it, having even purposefully taken out the few people who could have controlled/stopped it ahead of time.

5e goes back and says that it's ridiculous to assume Aryvandaar/Vyshaantar did it, because why would they nuke the land that they were occupying? 5e also says that the entire kingdom was pacified, despite the fact that Cormanthyr and 3e both say that the people were decimated and it was more a violent occupation due to the Sun Elves being genocidal.
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I define "dark elf" as any elf with dark skin regardless of moral alignment or any curses if any. The Dunmer in Elder Scrolls are dark elves for having dark grey skin even though most of them are not evil.

I often prefer dark elves who have dark grey skin or bluish or purplish tones since the latter two make them seem more like mystical and otherworldly beings instead of just elves with deep tans.

If I create a campaign, dark elves or drow would just be like any other race and simply be nocturnal or underground elves. Otherwise elves would just be ethereal beings such as ghosts instead of physical ones.

Oh and if I made a drow character, he would be chaotic neutral and say "wut up muh drigga!?" His buddies would be 50 Copper and Luda'drizzt.
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>>67216779
On the other hand, 5e lore - especially with regards to elves - is borderline incoherent and stupid, so there is that.
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>>67216661
>>67216779
Ok, i've added all this to my reading list. So now i have a new question. Which came first? This lore and said lore books, or the Drizzt novels?
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>>67216899
According to what Greenwood and Salvatore have said, a lot of Greenwood's notes and descriptions for the drow and elves in general as seen in Drow of the Underdark and as given to other writers to use in writing their own books (such as Elves of Evermeet, and Cormanthyr) came well before the first Drizzt books.
That said, Greenwood has admitted that if it weren't for the Drizzt books, drow would have never become popular enough for TSR to give him (or anyone else for that matter) the all clear to publish books about drow and the other elves for Faerun since TSR didn't think anyone was actually interested.
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>>67216899
>>67216977
And since I realized I didn't really answer your question:
According to the writers the lore came first.
According to publication history, Drizzt came first.
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>>67216899
As I remember Drizzt books - by some margin actually. Crystal Shard was I think 1988? Although, nothing in the first Drizzt books contradicted the later Crown Wars lore. And Greenwood may or may not have this lore on his backburner - similarly to Eilistraee for instance. She was created by Greenwood a good few years before info on her was officially published in sourcebooks. She's "technically" older than Drizzt - but not by much.
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>>67216977
>>67216991
>>67217001
Hmmm. It appears i have much investigating to do. Thanks, friendos.
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The Days of Thunder
This is the time of the fabled Creator Races, when many gods
came to the consciousness of mortals, and many races still
hid in caves. No mention can be found of elves, dwarves, and
other races in this time. Still, their absence on ancient cave
paintings is hardly sufficient evidence to say that they did not
exist in the Realms.

The Dawn Ages/The Time of Dragons
Dragons and giants rule Toril at this time; elves and dwarves
settle in small but growing communities all over Faerûn. The
dwarves overthrow giants and start their empires. Toward
the end of this time, the elves start doing the same against the
dragon overlords of this era.

The First Flowering
The elves reach their peak here, more than 15,000 years ago.
The great elven civilizations of Faerûn include Aryvandaar,
Illefarn, Ilythiir, Keltormir, Miyeritar, and Shantel Othreier.
With the elves success against the orcs and dragons and
giants, the other races thrive in safety and begin the slow
climb of civilization.

Just getting started. I see no mention of the worlds getting split between Toril and the one place where the Dragonborn came from. Was this a retcon as well?
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>>67217119
Yeah, Abeir-Toril secretly being two different worlds was a 4e thing.



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