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/4eg/ - D&D4e/4.5e, 13e and Stike! General

For Fourth Edition D&D and all the other games inspired by D&D4e, such as 13th Age, DnD essentials, Strike!, etc.

Some players last thread were complaining about 4e ruining faerun. It would be a great deal of fun to try 4e in real faerun! Wouldn't it be great if we could all just get along and build a campaign setting together?

>4e Trove
https://thetrove.net/Books/Dungeons%20&%20Dragons/AD&D%204th%20Edition/index.html

>Compendium
http://funin.space

>Pastebin (Expanded with more resources!)
https://pastebin.com/aHehiH58

>-Any character that requires more than 2 'classes' is unreasonable.
>-As the number of books needed to build the character increases, so do the odds of unreasonability.
>-Hybridization in general is suspect, and likely unreasonable.
>-The mixture of Essentials elements with setting-dependent elements from pre-essentials design era is something to be inspected, and may have unreasonable outcomes.
>-Cap all skill bonuses at char level + 10 or char level + 15 with Skill Focus
>-Any house rules are unreasonable
IGNORE optimizers/CharOp/powergamers
IGNORE hybrid classes
IGNORE dragonmarks
IGNORE using more than 3 or 4 books to make your character
IGNORE using FR/Eberron/Dark Sun books outside of intended settings
IGNORE house rules
IGNORE 2hu

Previous Thread >>67134993
>>
>>67183787
I don't get this thread copypasta, don't all 4e characters have 3 classes by the end of 4e?
>>
>>67183713

Now, a non-hybrid Infernal Pact warlock is not quite the best build for an arcane implement fire specialist. For that, you would be looking for a firegoat build ( https://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?471663-Firegoat-The-Satyr-Serial-Sorcerer-1-30-by-Cazzeo ). If that is too meticulously-optimized for you, even a regular fire-focused sorcerer will do, or perhaps a genasi Elemental Empowerment or tiefling Hellfire Blood wizard (mage) with the pyromancy school.

As far as arcane implement fire specialists are concerned, a non-hybrid Infernal Pact warlock is one of your worst options. The Flaming Weapon took a downgrade, so your power selection is going to be on the poorer side if you want to make good use of Hellfire Blood, Burn Everything, Infernal Prince, and so on.

You should have a look at the fire section of this guide. It shows that fire optimization is mostly for melee-types:
https://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?472017-When-Everyone-is-Super-a-Miniguide-to-Classless-Damage-Boosts-by-Svenj

But okay. Non-hybrid Infernal Pact warlock with a fire focus. You probably want to take Twofold Pact as soon as you hit paragon, so that you can pick up Mindbite Scorn. Your power selection is bad, so patching that up is first-priority. I would go with either a swordmage multiclass and the Malec-Keth Janissary to get +1d4 damage and thus the fire keyword on attacks by level 16.
http://funin.space/compendium/paragonpath/Malec-Keth-Janissary.html

Failing that, you could take Arcane Implement Proficiency (heavy blades) and a sorcerer multiclass. You can then use a Weapon of Summer for an item bonus to damage rolls and fire damage. The Demonskin Adept would give you a triple attack, while the Essence Mage would give you +1d6 damage on your multi-damage-type attacks, which may be a fair bit of them given the Weapon of Summer.
http://funin.space/compendium/paragonpath/Demonskin-Adept.html
http://funin.space/compendium/paragonpath/Essence-Mage.html
>>
>>67183901
Paragon paths and epic destinies aren't classes, they're extensions of a class. What the OP pasta means (don't listen to it, btw, it's a shitpost) is multiclassing through both using hybridization and multiclass feats.
>>
>>67183941
Why is it a shitpost?
>>
so i found a variant for 4th edition that starts players at a negative level and begins with very OSR vibes.

Would anyone be interested in a micro-campaign themed around cave men questing around to discover fire? expect to earn renaissance intelligence by first level
>>
>>67183962
Because it's by one dude who has a vendetta against our resident avatarfag and is contradictory (says houserules are unreasonable but makes houserules).
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>>67183901
thats not the most important part of the shit post

>>67183932
>>67183923
>>67183941

when you play pathfinder do you prefer to win via charop or exploiting the physics of the world in cool ways? What are your favorite classes there?
>>
>>67183932
I plan on grabbing Mindbite Scorn at some point in paragon.

Swinging or even wielding a sword is not up my street for this character, as I'm picturing a pointy-hatted explosion-throwing asshole with a big staff. Using other elements is not verboten, as the "Black Mage" stereotype throws around other elements, but being a warlock for this feels right given how black mages typically are "dabbling with powers best not touched".

And a ranking of PP options open to warlocks? I can see
Academy Master
Turathi Highborn
Hellbringer
Demonologist
Hexer
Lost Soul
Master of Flame
Life-Stealer
Praetor Legate

Also available but against the theme are
Master Preserver
Battleweaver
Entrancing Mystic
Evermeet Warlock
Planeshifter
Shadowthief
Dragonbane Pactmaker
>>
>>67184046
what deity are you going to worship?
>>
>>67184065
>Being a black mage
>Worshipping anything

If I can't ritually bind an agreement for direct power from it, it gets nothing from me. The Gods exist, but they're fucksmurfs who need eliminating.
>>
>>67184046

I do not know where you are getting the "dabbling with powers best not touched" idea from, and that does not necessarily mandate a non-hybrid warlock. It could suit a hybrid warlock, or possibly even someone multiclassing into warlock. Similarly, it could be represented by something as simple as a theme:
http://funin.space/compendium/theme/Cultist.html
http://funin.space/compendium/theme/Devils-Pawn.html
http://funin.space/compendium/theme/Infernal-Prince.html
http://funin.space/compendium/theme/Infernal-Slave.html
http://funin.space/compendium/theme/Occultist.html
http://funin.space/compendium/theme/Scholar.html
http://funin.space/compendium/theme/Vile-Scholar.html

Is there any reason you are not just playing a genasi Elemental Empowerment wizard? It is hardly the most optimal of builds, let alone the most optimal of wizard builds, but it does suit the ideal of tossing around elemental explosions.

It is also quite feasible to create a staff version of a firegoat build, if that interests you.

>And a ranking of PP options open to warlocks?
It really depends on your specific build, and whether or not you are 100% dead-set on a tiefling Infernal Pact warlock who ignores the Malec-Keth Janissary, the Demonskin Adept, and the Essence Mage. Are you?
>>
>>67184149
Go with yes for now, I'm dead set on not taking a multiclass feat and being a wizard doesn't quite bring the blaster feeling.

>Captcha wants me to click statues.
Well fuck, we're one step closer to "Identify the pictures of humans" "click all images with people who should be arrested" AI training, I guess.
>>
>>67184083
i enjoyed infernal tiefling lock into ?blood wizard? or whatever. It was mostly a core build but the blood pulse spell could set up your party to do some ridiculous nova damage and offered a cool chance at alternate teamwork

i definitly worshiped asmodeous

you should worship an esper anon! Ifrit would be perfect for your race/class fantasy, thats basically your dad

also my head cannon is that Occuria exist in all final fantasy games where black mages have blackface
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>>67184230
imagine if we could train the ai to arrest pedos though that would be sick
>>
>>67184046
>>67184230

I had to choose from your first list, I would probably go with the Hexer. It is not ideal, but then, the list is not ideal to begin with. It at least gets you some flexibility with laying down curses, instead of having to settle for the nearest enemy, and it applies some modicum of control with the slide.

Alternatively, if your build is set up to milk Hellish Rebuke for all it is worth, I would also consider the Academy Master for upgrading Hellish Rebuke just a bit further.

Do consider a sorcerer multiclass, however. That will net you staff proficiency, which gets you an accurate Staff of Ruin, a Siberys Shard of the Mage, and the ever-exemplary Staff Expertise. This will also open up the Demonskin Adept and its triple attack; you do not have a striker damage bonus on all three attacks, but such is life as a non-hybrid warlock.

Otherwise, to get those all-important staff implements, you will have to incinerate a feat on Arcane Implement Proficiency (staffs).
>>
>>67183787
>posts retarded houserules
>-Any house rules are unreasonable
>>
>>67183787
How sad a general this must be, when the OP itself is a shitpost?
>>
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>>67184457
>>67183962
SEETHING 4.5 boardgamers. Does having a GM who never says no make you a better player?
>>
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How do I play an XIV dancer in 4e?

>good unarmored AC
>Dexterity and Charisma
>dual chakrams
>ranged damage
>viable from level 1
>>
>>67184301
Also, Demonskin Adept and Essence Mage are both cha-based and all the infernal stuff is con-primary. Wouldn't I be losing too much accuracy and damage going for either of those?

Or are you suggesting I drop int as there are relatively few int riders on warlock stuff in general and go con-cha?
>>
>>67184709
Rogue, probably, as long as you accept Dual Daggers as Dual Chakrams (since chakrams don't exist in 4e, but daggers are similar enough; light blade for both melee and throeing). Possibly needs to hybrid Avenger or Monk or suffers from going Cloth (4e's version of unarmored).

Thief also works for similar reasons, but you could also just go Monk. Both would be pretty cool because they get movement-based options.
>>
>>67184752

Charisma/Intelligence Infernal Pact warlocks exist. They take Gift to Avernus instead of Hellish Rebuke, for example.

http://funin.space/compendium/power/Gift-to-Avernus.html

Hellish Rebuke can be a really good power, though it takes some setup, and it is usually more for hybrid warlock builds.

Tiefling non-hybrid warlocks can go either Constitution/Intelligence (taking the racial +2 Constitution and Charisma) or Charisma/Intelligence. The former has dangerously low AC, and high Constitution is not as good a survival method as it seems, but at least it offers Blood Pact of Cania:
http://funin.space/compendium/feat/Blood-Pact-of-Cania.html

The latter is more of a natural tie-in to the racial ability scores, allowing a starting Intelligence 16+2 and Charisma 16+2.

I would not recommend a Constitution/Charisma warlock. That misses out on riders, is taxed into Armor Proficiency (chainmail), and cannot use Armor of Dark Majesty, a premier warlock armor.
http://funin.space/compendium/item/Armor-of-Dark-Majesty.html

You can read the warlock guide for more information.
https://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?469339-Walk-With-Me-in-Hell-The-Warlock-s-Guide

>>67184770

Chakrams do exist in 4e, somewhat.
http://funin.space/compendium/item/Chatkcha.html

The Dexterity/Charisma ranged weapon attack build that immediately comes to mind is bard|ranger or bard|rogue, which is actually on the more decent side, what with Arrow of Warning and Rhyme of the Blood-Seeking Blade. It uses leather or hide armor, however, and a bow or a crossbow.

Thrown weapon builds are generally very niche in 4e. They are tough to optimize and the payoff is not that good. Even then, you are more likely to see people trying to do something with big thrown weapons as part of Deft Hurler Style, Throw and Stab, and similar powers; or builds that bring around a Farbond Spellblade or a Hungry Spear for switch-hitting; rather than characters built expressly for light thrown weapons.
>>
>>67184819
I'd noticed Armour of Dark Majesty and was definitely going to be taking that, especially if I went with Hexer.

And yeah, that guide is the one I was reading that spurred my original question of "What PPs", as it doesn't cover a lot of them.

What do you make of the "the Daughter" warlock feats, the two that I've seen so far are "Pact boon becomes gain 1/2 lv THP and deal some fire dmg to an adjacent enemy" and "When cursed enemy drops (not pact boon), their space catches fire"

These add to the whole Set Shit On Fire theme I was looking at, and the table is likely to be ... not the kind of optimised stuff you're clearly playing most of the time.
>>
>>67184709
do they ranged damage with the chakrams, or are they just implements?
>>
>>67184866
Not that guy, but FF14 dancers throw their chakrams and they return. They do also dance like mad to buff people, but it's a case of using them as weapons and flavourwise it's the dancer themselves that is the "implement" for causing their buffs (unlike 14's Bard, who wields a weirdass bow-harp hybrid and strums it to play songs, and thus has a sort of weapliment.)
>>
>>67184847

Daughter's Promises and Allegiance to the Daughter are both very niche feats. I would consider them quite low-priority.

Since you are dead-set on not multiclassing, you have a good number of feats on your metaphorical shopping list. Arcane Implement Proficiency (staffs), Staff Expertise, Superior Implement Training (accurate staff), Mindbite Scorn, Warlock's Wrath, Dual Implement Spellcaster, Twofold Pact, Improved Defenses, and a feat bonus to damage feat, not necessarily in that order, are going to set you back a whopping nine feats. That is just a very basic package, too.
>>
>>67184893
How about White Lotus Dueling Expertise to get both the expertise bonus and staff in one go?
>>
>>67184909

Maybe, but then you are missing out on the avoidance of opportunity attacks, which can really help at times. It is especially helpful when, even as a Hexer, you need to get somewhat close for ideal cursing.

A sun elf eladrin could swipe the staff proficiency immediately.

http://funin.space/compendium/race/Sun-Elf-Eladrin.html
>>
>>67184933

OK, now unrelated (ish) question.

Build Marisa. 19th and 30th level builds, your goal is to have maximum master spark potential, however you want to view that, and to imitate her various other quirks and shticks if you can.

Caveats:
1. The arbitrary pretend GM will allow you to mix and match supplements and settings
2. The arbitrary pretend GM will rule in favour of the "less powerful" interpretation most of the time if something is up in the air and ambiguous, unless you have a good reason or the "more powerful" interpretation isn't actually top tier anyway
3. The precise setting and encounters can't be predicted, and nor can the composition of your party, so nothing that requires other party members to have specific things, or the dungeons to regularly include X elements etc.
>>
>>67184878
>>67184709
I would say rogue|bard is what you are looking for. Bard does have ranged weapon attacks (Arrow of warning being a particularly noteworthy one). Rogue does have some leader dailies and utilities but is woefully lacking in leader encounters and at-wills. I would recommend using reserve maneuver to trade your rogue encounter power for a bard encounter power, and picking sly flourish for your rogue at-will. The guildmaster thief paragon path can be a fun and thematic one for the build. When it comes to weapon choice I would recommend daggers, and refluffing them as chakrams. As for being unarmored I suppose you could take unarmored agility and be in cloth, but at that point you are burning a feat for no benefit, as the best armor enchant for such a build would be shadowdance which is available to leather. I would also consider simply refluffing the leather to no armor.
>>
>>67184878
I think Bard || Ranger would be ideal, as that gets you ranged and two weapon fighting (twin strike). Would be a bit drafty in cloth armor, and you'd need a songblade enchant on your weapons to use them as implements, but sounds like it works out overall. You could get Swift Blade Style and Dual Implement Caster to benefit on dual wielding on both sides as well. Plus it feels thematically appropriate.
>>
>>67184988

Sorcerer, warlock, wizard (arcanist), wizard (mage), wizard (witch), sorcerer|warlock, sorcerer|wizard, or warlock|wizard. Divine multiclass, Morninglord paragon path, Radiant One epic destiny, radiant vulnerability optimization. That should about cover it.

>>67185007
>>67185073

Bard|ranger and bard|rogue are reasonably competent builds, and I have seen someone pushing for either to be bard|ranger/rogue/Student of the Seven or bard|rogue/ranger/Student of the Seven for a nova. Still, that build uses a bow or a crossbow, not thrown weapons.

From a mechanical perspective, there is very little reason to wield two weapons here, except maybe to benefit from a Rhythm Blade or something similar. Even Twin Strike does not take two weapons if used as a ranged power.
>>
>>67184558
>SEETHING
I don't know dude, you're the one obsessed with shitting up the general with your inane drivel everytime
>>
>>67185333
And your preferred power for renaming to Master Spark / Final Spark?

Doom of Delban? It's a honking great laser that lasts as long as you want.
>>
>>67185333
>Even Twin Strike does not take two weapons if used as a ranged power.

Yeah, but using it with two light blades as a ranged attack lets you benefit from Swift Blade Style, getting DEX to both attack and damage so that's something.
>>
>>67183787
>IGNORE using more than 3 or 4 books
What if we use the builder and don't care about your arbitrary nonsense?
>>
>>67185389

Generally, I would prefer something with better nova potential and christen the series of nova powers with an appropriate name.

>>67185404

http://funin.space/compendium/feat/Swift-Blade-Style.html

Swift Blade Style does not actually ask you to attack with both weapons. For a ranged character, it also simply is not as cost-effective for offense as a greatbow or a superior crossbow.
>>
>>67185754
>Swift Blade Style does not actually ask you to attack with both weapons.

Yes, but you need to wield them at least, which is close enough (and as close as 4e gets to dual wield outside of powers that actually make a left hand and a right hand attack). You don't have to enchant the second one if you don't want, I guess.
>>
Any interesting Int/Cha Psion PP out there? I was thinking about multiclassing to get Divine Oracle and never miss again with Will-targeting powers.
>>
Since we are talking about warlocks:
I've got a 5e game that I am convincing my players to switch to 4e. One of my players is a Hexblade and is frustrated with the 5e class. They want to be slicing and dicing as a Hexblade in 4e. What should I recommend that they take? Game will be at level 8 and I will give out the standard expertise feats to balance the math.
>>
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Are those dudes Shifters?
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>>67186491
Well I'd tell them not to be a hexblade in 4e either. It's an e-class and so it really just swings for big number once a turn. They might like swordmage if they're really stuck on being an arcane class with a sword. But if they're willing to expand beyond that, monks are an implement using class with weapons (which can be a sword) as an implement, as well as great ability to move around the battlefield and hit a lot of guys. Note that monk will need versatile expertise to use their weapon as an implement and get the feat bonus.
>>
>>67186394
If you're mostly using will targeting stuff then yeah divine oracle or lifesinger is hard to beat. As a whole I find controller PPs to not really get anything super exciting or build defining (outside stuff like entrancing mystic totally breaking open save penalty wizards), so just investing in accuracy or a little gimmick should be enough.
>>
>>67186394

Generally, the idea is to multiclass into bard for the Life Singer paragon path, which is even better than the Divine Oracle in some respects.
http://funin.space/compendium/paragonpath/Life-Singer.html

You will still be stuck on a routine of Dishearten, Mind Thrust, and perhaps Psychic Anomaly, however.

>>67186491

The warlock (hexblade) is generally okay from levels 1 to 6, though it really starts to suffer from the bad, pre-canned Essentials power loadout at level 7+. In my assessment, the two strongest hexblade pacts are the Fey Pact of the White Well and the Gloom Pact, with my personal preference going to the latter, since I think that the former is a touch overrated. Flesh Rend is a great power with Flail Expertise, and Spirit Flay is a nice attack all around. If your player has to be a hexblade, I would suggest a Gloom Pact build.

An alternative would be a swordmage|warlock. It really kicks off more at the paragon tier, but it is semi-decent at high heroic. It can make for reasonably competent character, though managing the minor actions can be tricky even at high heroic, especially for a new player.
>>
>>67186491
Swordmage|Warlock is pretty solid.
>>
>>67186812

In any case, if your player is dead-set on a warlock (hexblade), as opposed to a swordmage|warlock, then this guide may be helpful:
https://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?471621-Blades-of-Cursed-Midnight-A-Hexblade-s-Guide-(by-Lord_Ventor)

Swordmage|warlock admittedly has its own problems at high heroic, such as a lack of truly strong weapon enchantments, and a minor action economy crisis.
>>
>>67186910

Ah, yes, another option here might be a paladin (cavalier)|warlock. Given that this player is coming from 5e, there is a high chance that their character was a paladin/warlock there anyway.

A paladin (cavalier)|warlock is a beefy melee combatant with plate armor, a heavy shield, a 1/encounter leader-style heal, and heavy striking potential from their warlock side. It is nothing to scoff at.
>>
>>67186764
>just swings for big number once a turn
Hey now, there are hex-flails.
If you want to literally never have to think but still contribute some CC and more than enough damage, while enjoying extra edgyness, they're OK.
>>
>>67186944
>>67186818
>>67186910
>>67186764
Thanks to all!
I'll recommend swordmage|warlock and paladin(cavalier)|warlock.
>>
>>67186944
The player in question is pureclassed Warlock(hexblade) in 5e. They can't thematically justify being the paladin of a god and having a warlock patron, and don't understand why it's done.
>>
>>67188805

From a flavor perspective, the paladin (cavalier) is devoted more to overarching virtues rather than gods, so a hybrid paladin (cavalier) may not be that difficult to justify.

What is the character's race? Are they willing to reflavor or switch to a new 4e race, or must the race be preserved?
>>
>>67188805
From the hybrid warlock entry's default fluff:
>You draw power from snippets of arcane lore wrested from dusty tomes and primeval entities, but these secrets do not wholly define or limit your abilities. What keeps you from fully embracing the pacts of a warlock? Do you fear the price that such bargains might entail? Or have you not yet managed to pin down the final secret that would unleash your arcane destiny?
And the hybrid cavalier entry's default fluff:
>Cavaliers dedicated to a god of magic might combine with the sorcerer or wizard classes, whereas those with a link to a fey lord might become paladin/warlocks.
Have they read this? The game totally supports the idea of warlocks of faith and paladins who seek outside power.
>>
>>67183787
>13th Age
It's pretty far removed from 4th though.
>>
>>67183962

I can explain this a little better, since >>67184018 left out some nuance.

The first 4 lines of greentext in the OP are a series of maxims that I sketched out when arguing with 2hu about what is a "reasonable" amount of optimization to expect from an average player, after 2hu demonstrated that it is possible to build characters in 4e that negate the need for other roles. (Like how a well-built wizard in 3e kinda makes having a Rogue useless after a certain point.) It's not a 1-to-1 "This is how you stop OP builds", but rather a note that a lot of the more advanced CharOp builds just require thought processes and interactions that the average player wouldn't use. (ie, 2hu's Lightning Flail build, which relies on combining Mark of the Storm (a feat that lets you slide enemies with your lightning and thunder powers) with a Lightning Flail (which doesn't simply turn your damage to lightning damage, but in fact adds the lightning Keyword to your weapon attacks, allowing Mark of storm to proc on all of them, including your basic attacks, which are technically powers.)

That was then overstated for the next OP, by people with a much more aggressive anti-optimization stance, adding the "IGNORE" rules, which I never supported: again, I was merely trying to establish guidelines for what you could reasonably expect an average player to achieve. I was attempting to create space for conversations about 4e balance away from the "4e CharOp Old Boy's Club" mentality, or even 2hu's mentality.

It keeps evolving over time, becoming more troll-y, and taking several discussions out of context to make its "points". For instance, this time, it's included 13th Age art and references, after a conflict over the last couple threads with a couple posters spamming about 13th Age, personally attacking 2hu, etc.
>>
>>67189383
Oh, and the last two greentext points are even more ridiculous, since the idea of the "skill cap" was proposed as a more elegant house rule meant to replace several used by 2hu's group, and has been stated multiple times by its creator to have been a first-draft of the idea that they've already moved beyond to a new set of numbers (specifically, CL+13 and...?? (they've been wibbly on the idea of raising the cap, on the grounds that +13 actually forces skills to be "relevant" until very high epic)

And the last one was added after a thread where 2hu posted his table's house rules, and really showed just how distinctly different his 4e experience is, due to the optimization circles he runs in.

Just to wrap up a little more neatly:
-It's been made/shaped by multiple people with issues against our resident avatarfag, misquoting other posters' arguments with said avatarfag in order to add new "points", and is intentionally created to provoke/stimulate some of the more negative aspects of the community.
>>
>>67189301

Note that the actual description of the paladin (cavalier) stipulates:
http://funin.space/compendium/class/Cavalier.html
>A cavalier is a paladin who has embraced one of the heroic virtues, such as compassion, justice, sacrifice, or valor. His or her belief in this virtue is so strong that it manifests as divine magic. Although many cavaliers pledge their faith to the gods, others follow no specific religion. Regardless of one’s divine affiliation (or lack thereof ), a cavalier’s virtue stands paramount. It guides his or her actions, pointing to the best way to protect the ever-flickering light of hope and civilization in the world.

A hybrid paladin (cavalier) could very well be secular.

>>67189383

Please do not credit me for Mark of Storm, Flail Expertise, and Dragging Flail. It is a very basic combination that is reasonably well-established in the CharOp circles.

The only reason why I consider it noteworthy is because it comes online *very* early, at low heroic. Indeed, if a player can sell rare items during character creation, a human fighter can manage this by level 2.
>>
>>67189561

>due to the optimization circles

No, I do not actually run for any CharOp veterans, nor play alongside them. They have their own individual games, and I am very far apart from their actual gaming communities.
>>
>>67189334
Not according to that 1 retard. He spouts about how it's our savior, and that we should play it because it's more tactical and something about pulling punches. I challenged him 2 threads ago to leave us alone for the previous thread to see if his idea of "/4eg/ cannot survive without 13th Age" is true. About 40 or so posts in, shitposter is back, if it wasn't him, it was some other retard crying about character assassination, and how 2hu has a whole cabal of people working for him, and that 2hu is a big bad scary psychopathic pedophile or something, I stopped paying attention to that poster.
>>
>>67188877
They are open to changing the characters race and are currently looking at Eladrin; they like the teleport.

>>67189301
They have not. I'll definitely show it to them. It should help quite a bit.
>>
>>67189610
That's not what that phrase means.

You have a set of house-rules that are necessary/desirable to limit/control the system abuses/outcomes from the type of players and DMs you play with you. That group and/or set of groups is YOUR "optimization circle".

There's the CharOp Veterans optimization circle, the 2hu and Friends Optimization Circle, and presumably dozens or thousands of other optimization circles with different regions and ideas.

Same thing with "your" Flailing Fighter build: the claim is not that you INVENTED it, but rather that it is a build you introduced to the discourse here and therefore is connected with you as the primary person with which to discuss it.
>>
>>67183787
So, which 4th inspired homage/clone is the best one?
>>
>>67190171
None of them are any good.
>>
>>67183787
>4E Realms
I just use 4th and 5th rule sets with the AD&D Forgotten Realms. It works just fine.
>>
>>67190171
Strike!
>>
>>67186812
>You will still be stuck on a routine of Dishearten, Mind Thrust, and perhaps Psychic Anomaly, however.
Personally, I like Betrayal a lot, and Forced Opportunity once you hit 17. Mind Thrust and Dishearten are still really good.
>>
>>67190242
Those powers are pretty fun when they work. I just don't like that they have two chances of failure. Of course their second augmentations really help this (betrayal will still daze, forced opportunity gives the OA to all your allies), but it still is just a little disheartening.
>>
>>67189964

If they like the eladrin teleport, they may be interested in the swordmage|warlock build. It can very tricky to play, particularly for a beginner to 4e, and it only really begins to truly shine at level 11+. Still, it is reasonably competent at high heroic.

A very basic trick that can be accomplished with an eladrin swordmage|warlock is to take the Eladrin Soldier, Eladrin Swordmage Advance, and Renewed by Blood feats.

http://funin.space/compendium/feat/Eladrin-Soldier-.html
http://funin.space/compendium/feat/Eladrin-Swordmage-Advance.html
http://funin.space/compendium/feat/Renewed-by-Blood.html

Eladrin Soldier nets the character a +2 feat bonus to damage rolls, which applies regardless of whether they are implement or weapon powers.

Eladrin Swordmage Advance and Renewed by Blood give the characters two "free" melee basic attacks each encounter, which is a nice bit of extra damage given Iron Armbands of Power, even though they are not exactly gaining extra instances of striker damage features.

Most likely, given a free Expertise feat (e.g. White Lotus Dueling Expertise), the level 8 character's feat loadout would be Hybrid Talent (Swordmage Warding), Mindbite Scorn, Eladrin Soldier, Eladrin Swordmage Advance, and Renewed by Blood, with Killing Curse at level 10.

>>67190128

>YOUR "optimization circle"
Individual groups' house rules are not germane to discussion of the mechanics of a game, because the RAW of a game is generally the only common frequency under which it can be properly discussed.

>rather that it is a build you introduced to the discourse here
By that logic, generic multiattack rangers, Flame Spiral sorcerers, Intimidate abusers, and similar builds should all be credited to me.

>>67190242

I do not like Betrayal too much, since it is dependent on two rolls to make it work, and it is likewise reliant on precisely how good a monster's attacks are. Forced Opportunity can be nice, but only if the party is set up for it.
>>
>>67190171
It depends on what, exactly, you're looking for.

13th Age takes 4e's streamlining of 3e minutiae and takes it in an interesting direction, which has some appeal and some flaws.

Strike is a little more connected to the tactical nature of 4e combat, but it retains the issues of 4e balance (alpha striking is still a valuable tactics, and out-of-combat is a bit of a mess according to 2hu).

I don't know ANYTHING about Valor, so I can't speak to it.

Heroes against the Darkness I know very little about: what I can say is it seems to do a very good job of accepting that you know what an RPG is, and what your taste for the genre is, and then detailing who it will appeal to. Which it laid out, I said "that doesn't sound too appealing to me, thank you for laying it all out." and stopped reading after like, 10 pages.
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>>67190188
>I just use 4th and 5th rule sets with the AD&D Forgotten Realms. It works just fine.
Same. If that happened after the Bhaalspawn ascension or the Neverwinter Nights plague, it didn't happen.
I still have PTSD because of the Drizzt Spellplague books. Fuck the Ghost King.
>>
>>67190435
Fair. I ignore the Time of Troubles too. I just use the Old Grey Box, some 1E books and some 2E books.
>>
>>67190435
You know when I was reading that like a century has passed since the initial Spellplague, I had thought that Drizzt had died to alongside Elminster and all those other fuckwads, and I totally forgot that he was a fucking Elf.

I just started reading the Drizzt books this year, finished the 6th book, and I'm enjoying them so far. Is there a point where it just ends up not being good anymore because they've been around for so long?
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>>67190402
>Individual groups' house rules are not germane to discussion of the mechanics of the game.

Incorrect. The house rules THEMSELVES are not to be discussed AS MECHANICS of the game, but they are germane, as they indicate the issues your group encounters, the scale of optimization within the group, and so on.

The latter of which is the actual point: Your "optimization circle" refers to the level at which you (and the people you play with) optimize characters, which differs from group to group. You literally couldn't help an Anon last thread without translation, and one before that thread, because you couldn't UNDERSTAND the level they were "optimizing" to. Those players don't NEED the same rules or guidelines your players do, because they don't have the same problems.

>By that logic, Intimidate abusers, Flame Spiral Sorcerers, and generic multi-attack rangers should all be credited to me.

You forgot Brutal Scoundel rogues. But yes, they are, to an extent. When we say "2hu's X build", we're just condensing the sentence from "X build, which I heard about from 2hu". We're not saying you OWN the build, merely that you're the local source for it.
>>
>>67190402
>>67190377
>Those powers are pretty fun when they work. I just don't like that they have two chances of failure.
>I do not like Betrayal too much, since it is dependent on two rolls to make it work, and it is likewise reliant on precisely how good a monster's attacks are.
True. That said, I think the CHA-mod to the attack rolls helps a lot in both cases.

>>67190502
>I just started reading the Drizzt books this year, finished the 6th book, and I'm enjoying them so far. Is there a point where it just ends up not being good anymore because they've been around for so long?
To be honest, I don't even know how many of those books I have read. 6th book is the one in Calimshan, right? You're still in the "very good" zone. Honestly, up to the Obould book, I found them good.
To me, "Orc King" was nice, "Pirate King" was meh Rule of thumb - in Luskan everything turns to dirt and as I said, "Ghost King" gave me PTSD because of the sheer level of bullshit writing needed to kill his friends.
The three following ones are back to the "quite good" zone, and I stopped after "The Companions" because, once again, bullshit writing leading to all of his old friends reincarnating and coming back to him.
I might pick the series up again in the future, but I'm pretty sure I'm lightyears behind the lore at this point.
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>>67184770
I'd say that Chatkcha is the closest thing to a Chakram (throwing weapon from a desert setting), but it'd require a feat/blowing a background on it, and I don't think an average of 1 damage is worth it. Especially if you can refluff Daggers since they'll have an extra +2 to hit (+3 prof vs Chatkcha's +2, and Rogue Weapon Talent giving you an extra +1). Good luck Chakram anon.
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>>67190200
Stop shilling Strike!

Why does /tg/ keep shilling Strike!?
>>
>>67190600

Ultimately, it does not matter too much. I try to help however I can.

>>67190677

Betrayal and Forced Opportunity do not generate a ping on Psychic Lock, either, which is another mark against them. At the very least, they are eligible for the +2 bonus from the Life Singer's level 16 feature.
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>>67190850
Humm, no sweaty, according to the OP (>>67183787) we're shilling Stike!.
Totally not the same thing.
>>
>>67190677
Yeah, I had 2 giant books which contained 3 books each, so I read the origin story trilogy, and the Icewind Dale trilogy, which the last story taking place in Calimshan with the Halfing. Trying to avoid spoilers so I didn't read the spoiler tags, but based on context, it seems it took a direction that is rather unpleasant.


>>67190850
That's nothing compared to the 13th Age poster.
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>>67190936
>it seems it took a direction that is rather unpleasant
Only after the 20th book or so, and even then, it's only a few bad books in the series. Once again, I can't talk about the post-"Companions' books.
Still, it's funny to see the change from 3.5 to 4th edition in the latest books I've read...seeing as you can pinpoint the exact 4E powers some characters use in some conditions.
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>>67190919
Oh, yeah. I wasn't trying to tear down your group or anything with that. I was just saying "2hu posted his house rules,which are calibrated for his play-group's level of optimization, and that lead to the OP adding a "house-rules are unreasonable" line to be more of a dick"
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>>67191010
>pinpoint the exact 4E powers
So Drizzt starts Twin Striking or something right? Sounds cool.

Alright I'll keep reading then.

Oh hey, looks like Drizzt has a statblock, prob pre MM3 math but I'm sure it's an easy fix.
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>>67191772
>So Drizzt starts Twin Striking or something right?
IIRC there's a tiefling warlock using Tartarean Tomb against an enemy.
http://funin.space/compendium/power/Tartarean-Tomb.html
I especially remember this scene because the description was straight out of the PHB and because the enemy he entombed was his own estranged mother
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>>67191772
>Drizzt
>764 HP
>gets 5 hits that knocked back 3 and then gets to shift 3

4e was to good for this world.
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>>67191772
How would that Drizzt fare against Errtu (balor) in 4E?
>>
Did the Orb of Nimble Thoughts get an update? In the PHB3, the item bonus to initiative is equal to the wielder's INT modifier, and in the compendium, it's equal to its enhancement bonus. And yet, there's no mention of an update or an other source for the item in the compendium.
http://funin.space/compendium/item/Orb-of-Nimble-Thoughts.html
>>
Anyone in here have maptools experience? What do I do if I want to make my own map in the program? The tutorials I've seen involve importing a premade map and then just aligning it to the grid and assigning blocking, but I want to make my own little map. Assembling with tiles in the background just seems to treat those tiles as tokens rather than as part of an uninteractable background.
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>>67191772
>that stat block
Look how it accurately and effectively conveys large amounts of information. Notice how the it doesn't just name what spells they know but also list out the rules so you dont have to flip through the PHB or something to find them. If they bring back anything from 4e let it be the monster stat block layout, or just add the spell rules. For fuck sake how did this not make it into 5e?

Also 4e had the best MMs. not in terms in stats since 2 of them are borderline useless out of the box, but they where large books filled with nothing buy monsters. most monsters got variants when appropriate. Instead of 2 types of goblins in 5e, 4e had 5ish? each with their own role suck as tank, striker, mage ect. With advise on who they'd fight, what they try to do and accomplish in the fight and DC lore checks all on the same fucking page(s).
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>>67191970
Sounds great.

>>67192446
Looks like could be hard, at least he'll have back up.

>>67192414
It sure was. I always love seeing those plot npc types get statted out, the amount of bs they can pull off is great.
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>>67192488

Yes, the Orb of Nimble Thoughts did receive errata. The encounter power itself still keys off Intelligence modifier, however, making it a somewhat decent choice for an off-hand implement.

http://media.wizards.com/2014/downloads/dnd/4ECollectedErrataFAQ.zip

>>67192542

My own DM and I generally just use prepackaged maps or edit maps together in an image program.

>>67192731

The statistics block format is heavily outdated, mind you. It uses the generation 2 format and generation 2 math.

Meanwhile, an example of a rather complex generation 3 solo monster of the exact same level would be:
http://funin.space/compendium/monster/Blibdoolpoolp.html

Bliboolpoolp, by the way, is quite likely the single strongest solo monster in all of 4e for her level, simply due to her raw resilience.

>>67192739

Drizzt and Guenhwyvar are under generation 2 math and design, whereas the balor is under generation 3 math and design. Since the jumps between monster generations are not just about raw numbers, but in trait and power design as well, there is no way to "officially" compare and contrast them fairly.
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>>67192488
Looks like it was errated (that's where I got this image from, my pdf that contains all the errata ever for 4E). Item bonus = to Int mod could be ridiculous at the higher level, so looks like it was toned down a bit.

>>67192787
Thanks 2hu
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>>67192787
Any good sources for prepacked stuff or things I can composite?
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>>67192810

This is not my area of expertise, quite. You would have to turn elsewhere for that.
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>>67184709
>when shadowbringers is a a good mmo no really its triple a and better than wow please beleive me--- but you are already bored and need to get your class fantasy outside of final fantasy
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>>67190850
why does /tg/ keep shilling 4.5?
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>>67193051
Why does /tg/ keep shilling 13th edition?
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>>67192739
shit, that balor doesn't need built in AI, it plays itself
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>>67192807
Whoops didn't post the image.

>>67192731
I'm with you on this, I remember reading a Dragon Magazine article explaining how now in 4E Goblins, Orcs, and Gnolls, are all noticeably different besides the fact that they have different weapons. They all fight differently, although I cannot remember any of the details.
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>>67192446
My initial guess is not super great, since Drizzt is a level 21 solo and Balors are Level 27 Elites in 4e, so Errtu's defenses are pretty high relative to Drizzt
On closer inspection...
Per round that Drizzt uses 4 fang Assault, he deals an average of 54.1 damage, or 59.7 damage if he has combat advantage. That's just under 9.6% of Errtu's max health on the higher end.

On the other hand, Errtu deals, on a round with Drizzt in melee and full damage, (on that in a second), 84.575, or about 11% of Drizzt's max HP, with 10 damage being an aura, and there being a mixture of ongoing fire damage.

So if they were just standing there trading full attacks, Errtu would PROBABLY win, but a couple lucky crits would give the day to Drizzt.

HOWEVER. they WOULDN'T be doing that, as Drizzt has an at-will interrupt that has a chance to weaken, which drops Errtu's per round output to 54.6 on the weakened rounds, dropping his per round damage to roughly 7% of Drizzt's max HP. But, Drizzt can miss this, so Errtu's 'true' average DPR is around 74.03 (assuming Drizzt doesn't have combat advantage when using the interrupt, which is wobbly), or roughly...9.6% of Drizzt's HP.

On top of that, Drizzt has a longer-range attack (though errtu can close the distance relatively easy), AND Hunter's Quarry, which his earlier math wasn't using. (because I legit forgot he had it)

In short, I'd bet on Drizzt, but it's a pretty close fight.
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>>67193228
iirc it was more different racials than weapons

orcs are completely terrifying in 13 my players met them once and avoided ever facing them again
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>>67193241
This math assumes that, for some reason, he can't summon Guenhwyvar either. (Though, to be fair to the math, Guenhwyvar cannot on average survive a single round of attacks from Errtu, unless you rule that Drizzt can "spend a healing surge" to give her temp hp)
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>>67183787
So is this a fantasy squad wargaming thread?
>>
>>67193241
lmao for you pitting monster manual entries against each other. The monster manual's of 4e barely work for encountering players, why would they work better fighting against each other?

desu my biggest complaint about all 4 games in this thread is that none of them have players and enemies on the same chassis. Players can never really attack each other like in previous editions
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>>67193346
read the book of ages.

4.0: fantasy squad wargaming
4.5: same as above but shit and with more charop options
strike: roleplaying wargame
13th age: actual dnd
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>>67192731
>2 of them are border-line useless out of the box

This is actually something of a meme. Yes, MM1 monsters are fairly dull overall, but they FUNCTION. And MM2 monsters are in an even better place, even surpassing some MM3 monsters.

The Balor in MM3 has ONE actually different ability from its MM1 iteration. Otherwise, it's just a bunch of number changes. Damage up, defenses down, better Initiative and Perception, lower resistance.

Demogorgon is almost exactly on par with the expected values for an MM3 monster.

IN short, I would say that "the earlier the monster manual, the less likely the monster is to be interesting, or the more likely it could use some increased potency", but the MM2 isn't nearly as problematic as the MM1.
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>>67193241

You are comparing a generation 2 monster, designed to fight a party of five PCs (e.g. the multiattack targeting limitation), to a generation 3 monster. It is pointless.

>>67193725

>Demogorgon is almost exactly on par with the expected values for an MM3 monster.
Absolutely, positively not. Remember that Demogorgon is a level 34 solo, and solos are held to higher standards. For one, they are supposed to threaten a party as much as five entire monsters of the same level, and that includes damage output.

Demogorgon compares very poorly to three examples of generation 3 level 34 solos: Cryonax, Yan-C-Bin, and Ogrémoch.
http://funin.space/compendium/monster/Cryonax.html
http://funin.space/compendium/monster/Yan-C-Bin.html
http://funin.space/compendium/monster/Ogr%C3%A9moch.html

Demogorgon does not even have the correct attack bonuses for some of his attacks. A level 34 non-artillery targeting NADs should have an attack bonus of +37.
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>>67193963
>when your game takes 3 generations to still not have working monster math but it is also most definitely a good game and please multiclass!
>>
>>67193725
>reprinting monsters from the crb beacuse you didn't plan ahead around splatbook balance in a game designed for a virtual tabletop pseudo mmo that never came out

>but the forgotten realms lore is successfully destroyed/redesigned for the virtual tabletop anyway
>>
>>67194054
>>67194071
Egg White Duke please go.
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>>67194206
wow I didn't realize that Egg was responsible for every post shitting on 4e ever. How does one man have so much power?
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>>67194461
13th edition
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>>67194461
its a combination of autism and a very strange undying love for 13th age.
>>
>>67193963
>absolutely, positively not
You're right, how could I have ever confused him for being like them?! He only has comparable
HP
AC
NADs
and
Number of abilities

Oh no, he's got fewer immediate interrupts, does less damage, and is a marginally more vulnerable to stun-locking! This is fucking unbreakable!

Also, fuck off with that "it is pointless" bullshit. This isn't some fucking magic paradigm shift. A monster's a fucking monster. It deals damage, applies effects, and tries to avoid them What, can we not compare Psions to Fighters now? One's a controller, the other's a Gen 1 defender, guess we'll never fucking know how they relate to each other.
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>>67194461
actually the source of my power is joining a /tg/ DM'd 50th level epic mythic tristalt campaign, building a legitimate lore character and becoming completely invincible due to some silly DM rullings like, for example, allowing me to have iron heart surge and permanently mindswawp with a epic hecatonchires so that i am permanently encased in soulknife tower shields and thus always out of line of sight.

I didn't expect the first 3.5 character I ever played to evolve into a egg just because i joined an egg gang
>>
>>67194686

Damage output is the single most notable difference between generation 3 monsters and older-generation monsters. Demogorgon, a level 34 solo controller of generation 2, simply cannot put out the same kind of damage output as Yan-C-Bin, a level 34 solo controller of generation 3.

Both of the following monsters are level 22 standard brutes:
http://funin.space/compendium/monster/Marut-Executioner.html
http://funin.space/compendium/monster/Infernal-Girallon.html
However, the marut executioner is from the Monster Manual 2 (i.e. the first entry of generation 2 math), whereas the infernal girallon is from the Monster Manual 3 (i.e. the first entry of generation 3 math). Consequently, the latter creature has a damage output significantly higher than the former.

This is what makes generation 3 monsters that much different from previous generations: level-for-level, XP-for-XP, generation 3 monsters push out palpably higher damage output and can thus threaten a party that much more. Consequently, lower encounter levels can be a valid threat to a party, as opposed to bloating up high encounter levels with higher-level (and thus more durable) monsters just to pose a challenge.

Does this make more sense?
>>
>>67194956
so what you are saying is that 4e only has a single monster manual?
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>>67194985

There are a number of generation 3 monster sources available, such as the Monster Manual 3, the Monster Vault, the Monster Vault: Threats to the Nentir Vale, the Dark Sun Creature Catalog, the Demonomicon, and various issues of Dragon and Dungeon magazines.

By my estimate, using the official D&Di Compendium, a search for "standard actions" in the monsters tab pulls up 2,310 hits. That means that there are roughly ~2,310 generation 3 monsters, give or take some false positives and some missing monsters that use no standard actions.
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>>67195033
how good are the rules for playing without a game master in the back of dmg1(?) ?
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>>67193079
/Tg/ isn’t, one singular anon is.
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>>67195054
They're okayish, basically it's just a dungeon crawl.
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>>67195390
4e can't do actual dungeon crawls though. No physics in combat and no hauls
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>>67195526
Sounds like a you problem. Physics are irrelevant, sounds like you're trying to spout some 3.PF meme. But what are the dragon horde rules that can be easily used anywhere else if appropriate in Draconomicon - Chromatic Dragons? What are loot parcels? What is being a Monty Haul DM and tossing money at the party to see how they spend it?
>>
>>67195859
>physics are irrelevant
this is why we are playing a team based tactical wargame and not real dnd

every other edition has physics
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>>67195948
Honestly all those "lmao XD broken physics" stories are just stupid as hell, and I'm not looking for that kind of game. I wanted shit like that I'd play Fate or something.
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>>67196277
thats the difference between tactical and tacticool
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>>67196277
Silly anon this is tacticool. Can't tacticool in a game of make believe. Where are all the guns I can put a million attachments on?
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>>67195948
What the fuck are you talking about
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>>67196411
physics, clearly, it is the only repeated word in the post

would you like to ask a real question or do you want to throw more mud around?
>>
>>67190850
I am inordantly fond of this meme.
>>
>>67183787
Is the Book of Ages in any accessible trove?
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>>67196993
its in the pelgrane trove, which when regularly posted in 13 releated generals was continually reported by '''someone'''

If you know how to lurk you can find it in 5 minutes!
>>
>>67197057
>“Someone”
Kek
>>
>>67194956
>damage output is the single most notable difference between generations

If that's your argument, it makes your earlier point about being "unable to compare" monsters from different MMs even less accurate or believable, and it increases the accuracy of the argument that "pre MM3 Manuals are unusable" is just a meme.

I'll yield I overstated my case with claiming he's "almost exactly on par", given how much lower his effective damage is.
>>
>>67196440

Kindly explain what you specifically mean when you refer to in-game physics. Please.
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>>67197804
what have you not read the core books? Why don't you make a hypothesis
>>
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>>67198335
Where are these physics you speak of? They are no where to be found in 13th Age, and there's only 1 entry in the 3.5 PHB. Maybe you should try being more specific in your arguments instead of making others do all the work for you because you can't make it yourself, because there is no argument to be made.
>>
>>67190850
I'll stop shilling Strike! when somebody makes a better tactical RPG.

BTW, there's one called Zafir on kickstarter right now that's literal 1 to 1 translation of XCOM2, if anyone's interested.

>>67196741
Yeah, me too.
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>>67199627
That sounds cool in theory at least. I hope in practice gameplay doesn't get bogged down by minutiae.
>>
>>67194686
>trying to argue with 2hu about this kind of stuff
One of the most classical blunders on /4eg/. If the man is telling you that you should never, absolutely, positively, use gen1/2 monsters, then you don't. Nevermind the fact that you just want to have fun and throw monsters to your players, who may or may not be autistic obsessive CharOpers.
>>
>>67199832
The preview looked good, but it's LITERALLY just XCOM2. As in has the same classes and I'll go ahead and assume the same talent choices and equipment.

Which makes it sort of a bore compared to Strike!. Bit there's some example scenarios in it at least.
>>
Anons? Long story short, back in AD&D, there was a half-dragon variant based on the mating of drow and deep dragon - which I believe was the AD&D precusor to 4e's Purple Dragon.

Is it possible to mechanically pull off a half-dragon drow as a PC in 4e? If yes, how would you recommend doing it? Simply cosmetically reskin a drow PC with things like the different manifestations of Lolthtouched being portrayed as breath weapons, and pair it with the Dragon Sorcerer or maybe the Monk class?
>>
>>67199937
There are PPs and EDs that are about becoming more draconic.

You could also just play some version of Dragonborn.
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>>67199860
At that point, shouldn't I just play XCOM the board game?

>>67199937
Statically Drow would be slightly better at being a Monk (their stat bonuses are +2 Dex and +2 Wisdom OR Charisma) than a Dragon Sorcerer (which needs Charisma/Strength), but I prefer Sorcerer over Monk, so I'd say play a Dragon Sorcerer instead. Or do what >>67199949 says and play a Dragonborn. I'd ask your DM if your breath weapon can be psychic damage typed, maybe do some psychic damage optimization?
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>>67199937
Dragonborn Dragon Sorcerer, but looking like a drow.
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>>67200057
>At that point, shouldn't I just play XCOM the board game?

That only has the over-world stuff. But you could combine the two and actually have a full XCOM experience.

Also, obviously as a tabletop it still has advantages over PC (and the resolution system looks fine, so you are not loosing too much on that).

>>67200070
... I assumed they looked like half-dragons.
>>
>>67195054

I actually tried it a couple of times, back during the initial release of 4e, except that I used the version with a DM adjudicating the randomly-generated dungeons and encounters. It was not exactly a stellar experience; even discounting the Player's Handbook 1 and Monster Manual 1 design, due to the randomized nature of the encounter-building, the players are not exactly going to get tailor-made and well-crafted encounters.

>>67199937
>>67200057
>>67200070

I would take a different route here. Drow are a +2 Dexterity, +2 Wisdom or Charisma race. Purple dragons (a generation 1 monster, it is important to note) are generally associated with Dexterity and Charisma, above and beyond other dragons.

Therefore, I would suggest a kapak draconian.

http://funin.space/compendium/race/Kapak-Draconian.html

Subrace abilities can always be cherry-picked. For example, it is possible to create a kapak draconian, select the racial +2 Dexterity and +2 Charisma, Instinctive Flight, Murderous Eye, and *Dragonfear*. Since turning Dragon Breath into psychic damage is on the harder side (and it is not a very good power anyway short of builds like rebreathers), Dragonfear better expresses the concept of a psychic dragon.

Class-wise, there are few decent Dexterity/Charisma builds that focus on doling out psychic damage on a regular basis. The closest you could get is a Wild Magic sorcerer, given Chaos Bolt.

If you are willing to drop the psychic damage concept, a number of other builds open up, like Desert Wind monk (good throughout heroic), hexblade (fair from levels 1 through 6), and bard|ranger or bard|rogue (reasonably strong even into paragon).
>>
>>67197563

Yes, you cannot compare monsters from different monster generations, and generations 1 and 2 are effectively unusable in a play environment that tries to maintain up-to-date standards. I stand by that entirely and without regrets.

If you want to fairly compare generation 1 or 2 monsters to generation 3 monsters, you would have to update the former to generation 3. Damage output is the single most notable difference between generations, but there are other notable differences, such as defenses, attack bonuses, and overall monster design.

Sometimes, the differences really are just purely numeric.

http://funin.space/compendium/monster/Angel-of-Vengeance.html
http://funin.space/compendium/monster/Marilith.html
Compared to the Monster Manual 1 angel of vengeance (page 17) and marilith (page 57), the Monster Vault angel of vengeance and marilith really are just a collection of numerical tweaks, most notably in the damage department.

Other changes range from the subtle to the extensive.

http://funin.space/compendium/monster/Swordwing.html
Compared to the Monster Manual 1 swordwing (page 249), the Dungeon Magazine #204 swordwing is also just a collection of numerical adjustments, but it also has the new standardization of soldier monster marks into "Effect:" lines.

http://funin.space/compendium/monster/Blackroot-Treant.html
Compared to the Monster Manual 1 blackroot treant (page 251), the Monster Vault blackroot treant has an actual double attack, making it worthy of being an actual elite.

http://funin.space/compendium/monster/Hezrou.html
Compared to the Monster Manual 1 hezrou (page 56), the Monster Vault hezrou trades in the annoying attack debuff aura and the small mobility benefit for a raw damage aura. Rather than predictably spam Combination Attack, the new hezrou alternates between Slam and Bite, so that its damage output actually fluctuates with a small degree of randomization.
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>>67200087
>... I assumed they looked like half-dragons.
True, but most half-dragons have various levels of dragon-ness to them. With one that has drow ancestry, looking like a bigger, scaly drow with fangs would make sense.

>>67200165
>Murderous Eye
Isn't that a power made to especially target vulnerable creatures? If so, that sounds like an interesting option for the spawn of a drow and a purple dragon (vicious bastards IIRC)
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>>67200187

Murderous Eye is simply Vicious Advantage, except as a (sub)racial feature rather than a feat. Murderous Eye is marginally better, because it includes weakened, and it does not apply to any allies that might be targeted as part of friendly fire or domination.

http://funin.space/compendium/feat/Vicious-Advantage.html

Capitalizing on Murderous Eye generally requires a build that can reliably slow, immobilize, or, sometimes, weaken enemies.
>>
Looking for dragon stuff

http://funin.space/compendium/paragonpath/Dragon-Guardian.html

So... this looks pretty damn good. Now I'm considering what the best way to capitalize on that crit would be.
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>>67200185

http://funin.space/compendium/monster/Ice-Devil.html
http://funin.space/compendium/monster/Ice-Devil-Gelugon.html
The original Monster Manual 1 gelugon (page 63) was, bizarrely, reprinted in the 4e Tomb of Horrors mega-adventure, with no generation 3 math updates. The Monster Vault gelugon drops the annoying attack debuff aura for an actual control aura, the fire resistance for an actual fire vulnerability of sorts (i.e. actual countermeasures against the monster). The old gelugon's attacks are also ditched in favor of a more streamlined and directly effective set of offensive powers.

http://funin.space/compendium/monster/Balor.html
The original Monster Manual 1 balor (page 53) is more or less just an auto-attack bot. The Monster Vault balor trades in the accuracy reroll power for an actual recharge power, giving the balor a dynamic wherein can, for example, use Fire and Lightning to drag in an enemy with Flaming Whip, slash at them with Lightning Sword, spend an action point, and then slash at that enemy and their friends with Beheading Blade.

http://funin.space/compendium/monster/Elder-Blue-Dragon.html
Solo monsters are, of course, the biggest leaps in design between generations 1 and 3. I still do not think generation 3 ever got solo monsters quite right, aside from outstanding outliers like Blibdoolpoolp, because even generation 3 solo monsters generally are not as dangerous and as debuff-resistant as five standard monsters of the exact same level (presumably of different types to prevent redundancy).

Still, compared to the Monster Manual 1 elder blue dragon (page 79), the Monster Vault version is a huge improvement in design. The older version had obnoxiously bloated defenses, the outdated quintuple solo hit points, and god-awful offense. The new version offers a significant overhaul of the elder blue dragon's offensive powers, and even confers some minor resistance to hard control conditions.

From the pure numerical to significant reimaginings.
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>>67200324

The Dragon Guardian is just tenuously decent in my eyes, as far as paragon paths are concerned. It is an off-defender, though I do not think a Dragon Magic sorcerer can be that good a secondary defender. At best, a Dragon Magic sorcerer can force the occasional catch-22 with Guardian's Breath action pointed into Burning Spray, and defend themselves with Dragonflame Mantle, Sudden Scales, and Fog Form.

If your DM is interested in a complete homebrew overhaul of the sorcerer class, I would gladly recommend erachima's sorcerer rewrite.

https://img.4plebs.org/boards/tg/image/1520/98/1520982649548.pdf

As a disclaimer, this is almost certainly built for top-optimization games, and the actual benchmark here is the firegoat build. This document is unsuited for lower-optimization games.

Even under that assumption, some powers here are quite questionable: Day and Night (rewrite), Prismatic Lightning (rewrite), Phoenix Pyre (original), and Blood-Freezing Exhalation (original).

I would also be wary of the Arcane Flexibility feat's rewrite here, which adds a significant layer of complexity to the sorcerer. Armored Sorcerer can also be on the very fiddly side.

"Evolution" on a power simply means that the listed power cannot be taken on the same character as the new power. Taking a new evolution power lets you retrain the listed power, and this does not count towards the limit on retraining options.

My favorite erachiman build is a Cosmic sorcerer permanently staying in Sun to ping adjacent enemies with fire and radiant damage, then entering the Celestial Scholar to upgrade to Blazing Sun at level 11 and gain a permanent +2 power bonus to all defenses at 16. This character uses a double sword with Dual Implement Spellcaster, Ensorcelled Blade, Lightning Cuts, and Force Daggers.

I have had extensive experience playing alongside an erachiman Cosmic Magic sorcerer and co-DMing for an erachiman Storm Magic sorcerer. There is a Dragon Guardian rewrite here, too.
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>>67200406
I was thinking of something like a Fighter hybrid so you can capitalize on the marks. Something like Flame spiral -> Come and Get It already feels very good, and fighter has many repositioning powers to boot.
>>
>>67200780

Suffice it to say, there is a reason why the classic firegoat Flame Spiral sorcerer is a non-hybrid sorcerer, as opposed to a hybrid sorcerer. Fighter|sorcerer can definitely work if you want to action point a Flame Spiral into a Come and Get It, but you are most likely not going to be a Dragon Guardian.

As a fighter|sorcerer, you are most likely taking Hybrid Talent (Fighter Armor Proficiency) for hide armor and shields. That means you do not actually have the Dragon Magic class feature, and thus, you can neither capitalize on the rider of Burning Spray nor become a Dragon Guardian. You could be a paragon hybrid to pick up Dragon Magic, but that has its own problems, and you are still not a Dragon Guardian.

You could take Hybrid Talent (Soul of the Sorcerer [Dragon Magic]), but then, you are getting little out of your fighter side. You may as well just be a non-hybrid sorcerer, multiclass into fighter, take Novice Power (Come and Get It), and then use it through a Staff of Ruin.

There is always a rebreather to distort game balance at the heroic tier, but that has its own issues.
>>
>>67200930
Hmm, maybe warden would work out better? Warden's Lure looks kinda incredible with Flame Spiral and Guradian's breath as well.
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>>67200977
Fighter|Sorc or Warden|Sorc both work fine. A sorcerer is very hard to mess up in all honesty, and even a sorcerer that is not the best is still in all likelihood going to be very good. Pick an elemental typing, put it on all your attacks, grab the associated support, and pretty much anything can be turned into a functional striker.
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>>67200977

As far as I am aware, for capitalizing on Flame Spiral, a non-hybrid sorcerer handles it best. Previously, someone proposed a Lightning Weapon and Mark of Storm variant of the firegoat build, which performs the automatic damage taps using the Mark of Storm slide. That can work out quite well.

If you are looking to be a Dragon Guardian specifically, however, a non-hybrid sorcerer probably handles the paragon path best. The Dragon Magic prerequisite is really quite inconvenient, because it locks a hybrid sorcerer into Hybrid Talent (Soul of the Sorcerer).

>>67201054

Hard to mess up, correct. Tricky to milk the most out of, certainly; that is why the firegoat build has to jump through many hoops to work as well as it does, and even then, there are still points of contention, like whether or not it is better to go for a Lightning Weapon and the Mark of Storm, and whether or not Unlucky Teleport is eligible for bonuses to damage rolls.
>>
>>67201054

To expound on this, I do not see much point in a hybrid defender|sorcerer going into Dragon Guardian. The sorcerer would have to pick up Hybrid Talent (Soul of the Sorcerer [Dragon Magic]) anyway, which calls into question why the character is a hybrid defender to start with.
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>>67201083
Hybrid defenders do get to punish marks still (well, fighters and wardens do), and have a bunch of Close Burst stuff to go with it.

But hmm... maybe a Barbarian would do better? The PP doesn't require the close burst power to be a sorcerer close burst, and barbarians can capitalize on the really likely crit it grants.
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>>67201190

A Dragon Guardian has exactly two methods of generating and punishing marks: its level 11 and 20 attack powers. You do not gain much by attaching hybrid defender functions to a Dragon Guardian.

The word "burst" appears not a single time in the description of the Dragon Guardian. The paragon path stipulates blasts, not bursts. Only two barbarian attack powers involve genuine close blast attacks, as opposed to a melee attack followed by a close blast sans attack.

http://funin.space/compendium/power/Roaring-Challenge.html
http://funin.space/compendium/power/Bloody-Roar.html
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>>67201190
It's important to note that barbarians have exactly one close blast encounter power before 17, and it doesn't deal damage. For a free action MBA I wouldn't bother. If you really want to crit fish grab a melegaunt's darkblade and consistent access to rerolls.
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>>67201277
>>67201327
I keep mixing up bursts and blasts. FML.
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>>67201327

>grab a melegaunt's darkblade and consistent access to rerolls.

For a barbarian (or, more likely, hybrid barbarian), the rerolls usually come from Disciple of Divine Wrath.

I stand by a barbarian|cleric/avenger/Anointed Champion having an absolutely amazing encounter nova by level 13 or 14 or so. Five Stars, Five Strikes is merely icing on the metaphorical cake.
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>>67200057
>4e player prefers the boardgame
finally some honesty
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>>67201443
Low hanging fruit. You should try harder.
>>
Good level 5 monsters to use in enclosed spaces against pcs, preferably large sized and naturally occurring in wooded areas, mountainous terrain, or the Feywild in general, if anyone would aid me.
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>>67203248
Young Green Dragon could be good for a solo. Battle Worgs, Hippogriff Dread Mounts, Dire Wolves, and Bears are decent standards.
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>>67203973

I am not a fan of the young green dragon as a solo monster. It suffers from the same poor action economy that even generation 3 solos suffer from. Some of the other monsters you suggested would be decent, however. Out of them, the ones I would suggest are:

http://funin.space/compendium/monster/Baazrag-Breeder.html
http://funin.space/compendium/monster/Bear.html
http://funin.space/compendium/monster/Cilops-Creeper.html
http://funin.space/compendium/monster/Dire-Wolf.html
http://funin.space/compendium/monster/Rage-Drake.html
http://funin.space/compendium/monster/Twig-Blight-Swarm.html
http://funin.space/compendium/monster/War-Crodlu.html
>>
For a beginner to the system, what "math fixes" are sensible to deploy and where can I learn the difference between good (MM3) and bad monster numbers / how to fix monsters that have "bad" math?

Ideally at non-2hu levels of optimisation because ain't nobody got time for going full autism when they're new to this shit.
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>>67204460
Basically pre-MM3 monsters have too much hp and too little damage. They're also designed conceptually different so you can't just do a straight number change to bring pre-MM3 stuff up to par. For all monsters turns out their defenses and attack bonuses actually end up outscaling players, so giving them a free expertise feat at 5 and a defense feat at 11 should be enough.
>>
>>67204460

If you want to give characters a some math fixes, just hand them one or two bonus feats (depending on your preferences for power level), and recommend an Expertise feat as one of those bonus feats. That is just about it.

You do not *have* to, of course. Not doing so does not make too great a difference in the grand scheme of 4e's balance.

If you want to brute-force convert monsters to generation 3, this page should cover you:
http://blogofholding.com/?p=512

>>67204512

>too little damage
This is true.

>designed conceptually different
This is also true, as posts >>67200185 and >>67200356 show.

>too much hp
This is false. Generation 3 monsters do not have different hit points than generation 2 monsters. Generation 2 monsters quadrupled the hit points of solos rather than quintupling them.

You are conflating this with the actual purpose of generation 3 monsters: tougher fights even without higher-level monsters. In generations 1 and 2, DMs wishing to challenge characters had to send in encounters with obnoxiously high encounter levels, which obviously resulted in monsters with high defenses and high hit points. Generation 3 allows DMs to challenge parties without cranking up encounter levels stupendously high.
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>>67201443
>prefers
>original post never even says the word
You are illiterate, get off this site.
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>>67204460
There's this thing.
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>>67204460

To expound on this, generally, if a monster entry has a "standard actions" header at some point, then you are probably looking at a generation 3 monster.

A notable exception is the Tomb of Horrors, which mixed in monster generations 1, 2, and 3 under the generation 3 format, which was terribly confusing.

In general, however, if you are looking at a non-Tomb-of-Horrors monster, it is easy to tell the difference between monster generations by formatting alone.

This is an example of the generations 1 and 2 format:
http://funin.space/compendium/monster/Earthrage-Battlebriar.html

And this is an example of the generation 3 monster format:
http://funin.space/compendium/monster/Light-of-Amoth.html
>>
What makes 4e better than 13th edition?
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>>67200356
I would call literally ONE of your examples a "significant reimagining".

>It wrote the same ability differently!
>It can make its basic attack TWICE
>We made it less interesting, and turned it into a boring sack of damage!
The ice devil is the only one I think is an significant reimagining, and I don't necessarily agree that it's BETTER, I just think "turning the movement control into an ability that can be shut off with fire damage" is the first unique and interesting change you've provided.
> Give the elite an area attack instead of a re-roll!
The Elder Blue Dragon is your most impressive set of changes, and even IT's not a SIGNIFICANT reimagining, since it's just "more damage, and add the new solo standards of extra turns and CC resistance." That's it.

"Up their damage, give elites multiple or area attacks, and give solos extra turns and CC resistance" Boom. How to upgrade MM1 and MM2 monsters in a single sentence.
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>>67206694
13th Edition isn't a real thing. If you want a conversation, use the right words.
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>>67207250
Extra turns and CC resistance is certainly the most important part of MM3 solos though. If your solo does not have extra turns and CC resist they will be absolutely destroyed compared to an equal encounter of standards.
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>>67207250

We have different thresholds for "significant reimagining." The hezrou is significantly streamlined in its revision, perhaps for the better. The balor's change is subtle, but it actually influences the balor's playstyle a fair bit, particularly in how it tries to reposition its enemies.

>"Up their damage, give elites multiple or area attacks, and give solos extra turns and CC resistance"
This does not cover the changes that were applied to, for example, the balor (it already had the usual elite double attack), the hezrou, and the ice devil. Perhaps a couple more examples should be brought up.

http://funin.space/compendium/monster/Ghoul.html
Compared to the Monster Manual 1 ghoul (page 118), the Monster Vault ghoul has an actual breaking point for its immobilization and its stunning, making a pack of ghouls slightly less of an inexorable stunlock engine. It is not that much, bit it helps a teensy bit.

http://funin.space/compendium/monster/Vrock.html
Compared to the Monster Manual 1 vrock (page 58), the Monster Vault's vrock is entirely missing Stunning Screech.

The hezrou's aura rewrite, for example, was deemed an unfun mechanic due to it slowing down gameplay.

In general, there is somewhat of an effort to cut down on "unfun" mechanics in the updated monsters. It is not perfect, and there are still stunning powers all over the Monster Vault, but the effort is there.

>>67209453

Even then, I do not think generation 3 solos have *enough* extra turns and control resistance. Blibdoolpoolp is an outlier who can put up quite the fight against control effects.

http://funin.space/compendium/monster/Blibdoolpoolp.html
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>>67210063
Yes in my group we use exclusively homebrew monsters to keep up with the optimization. Some of the strongest anti-control mechanics I've seen have been the solo has a no action attack that they make at the end of every player turn so no control truly stops it, and a common one is the solo will attempt to save out of any effect upon application no matter the duration.
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>>67210220

I do not like going after (save ends) effects, because it weirdly makes "until the [start/end] of your next turn" that much more reliable.
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>>67210469
What I mean by no matter the duration is that it exactly saves against those types of effects. End of next turn, end of encounter, or save ends, doesn't matter what.
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>>67210723

That makes more sense, yes.
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>>67183787
Player likes vampires, what's the best class to hybrid it onto so he's playing something not dogshit tier?
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>>67213393
Let him take the Vampirism feat and another Vampire multiclass feat for free.
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>>67213393

Hybrid monk|vampire or rogue|vampire might be vaguely, vaguely tolerable. Vampire Slam would, at the very least, be a free Dexterity-based melee basic attack, and the character could still max out Dexterity.

Martial Vampire is clearly better than Monastic Vampire, however, and non-standard-action level 3 rogue encounter powers are strong. I would lean towards rogue|vampire. My assessment could be wrong.

What level is this character being built for, and what level range is this character to be played at?

>>67213571

This is actually my own house rule for the vampire. It has been working well so far.

>Requiem and Masquerade
>Either during character creation or (with sufficient narrative justifications) at the end of an extended rest, you can choose to gain Vampirism as a bonus feat. This does not count against your multiclassing limits in any way. The regeneration from Enduring Soul equals your highest ability modifier. If your Constitution is 14+, then rather than drop down to merely 2 healing surges, you instead drop to a number of healing surges equal to 1 + your Constitution modifier. You are also considered to have the Vampiric Heritage feat for the purpose of prerequisites.

>You also gain any one of the following feats as a bonus feat: Arcane Vampire, Divine Vampire, Martial Vampire, Monastic Vampire, Night’s Sight, Primal Vampire, Psionic Vampire, Thirst for Blood, Vampiric Alacrity, Vampiric Heritage.

>You cannot retrain any bonus feats you gain this way.
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>>67207269
Why does it say 13e right in the OP then?
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>>67216460
Because the person who made the OP is a shitposter.
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>>67216460
Because there's a retard shitting up the thread.
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>>67199937
Wow, this place is surprisingly uncreative for a dead edition general. Considering we HAD Heritage Feats as a thing in 4e, which allowed us to play Dhampyrs and Aasimar, why is a Heritage Feat chain for Half-Dragons an impossibility to homebrew?
>>
>>67216633
>>67199937
A couple reasons. Not all of which are good reasons, but they do exist.

Firstly, there's simple conservation of effort/ generic reflex. There was nothing in the original post that said the person particularly wanted or needed Drow abilities. As such, the easiest answer is 'reskin a Dragonborn', which takes very little effort. The next harder step is something like Dragon sorcerer.

The second overarching reason is timing: the last few threads have been pretty troll-heavy, with big arguments about 13th Age and so on. So you've come to the thread at a relatively bad time.

Lastly...we're not a group that indulges in much homebrew, in general. We've dabbled here or there with it, but most posters here just want to talk about their 4e games, build characters, etc. I think, and I don't mean this as negative as it might sound, but that it has to do a lot with 2hu. Given that this is a guy willing to say the designers of the game fucked up and didn't build it right, the idea of posting stuff you personally made in an arena he frequents is somewhat daunting.

Now, because I like picking fights, let's get into it.

Draconic Heritage [Dragon Bloodline]
Requirement: Living Humanoid Race
Effect: You gain a +2 to Intimidate checks.
Further, you gain the Dragon Breath racial power, as a dragonborn, with the following exceptions: It is a daily attack power rather than an Encounter Attack power, you may also select thunder or psychic as the damage type.
In addition, you gain resist 5 to the damage type chosen for your dragon breath power.

The Voice of Io [Dragon Bloodline]
Prerequisite: Draconic Heritage feat
Effect: You gain the ability to speak Draconic in addition to any other languages you spoke.
You may use Dragon Breath as an Encounter power.
You count as a Dragonborn for the purpose of taking feats related to your Dragon Breath ability.

And we can go on from there. Feats for wings, feats for type-specific abilities, whatever.
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>>67216633
It's the taint of 13th Age anon.

As for your dragon birthright, I feel bloodline feats alone may be insuficient for a full-fledged half-dragon. It should be at least a large set of multi-class feats to cover all the special snowflake points, or ideally - a Theme or even a Class of its own - since at least some players would want to make the weird heritage a big part of their character.
Making the multi-class feat ought to be not too hard, since you have a lot of examples on what these are supposed to do and the opportunity costs.
Making the Theme will be hard and awkward, not the least because it requires properly evaluating at least most of the staple Themes.
Making it a Class is an enormous undertaking that requires a lot of research, calculations and testing - but on the upside, it will probably be better than half of Essentials classes.
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>>67216990
Class and Theme are better than feats here, because the feats are supposed to represent "I have this hidden bloodline" and not obvious, major things like "I have vestigial wings, unnatural hotness and breathe fire"
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>>67216950

Your proposed Draconic Heritage is on the weaker side, mostly because Dragon Breath itself is a weak power from the start, short of rebreather builds and the like.

I agree with >>67217021. It would be better to have this as a theme, if you are dead-set on homebrewing something and not just reflavoring a draconian.
>>
So, anons? In the Playing Githzerai article, 4e came up with the really interesting idea of "Primal Cloisters", which were githzerai communities who embraced the Spirit Way alongside or instead of their traditional psionic powers.

What do you think of this idea? If you like it, how would you build a Primal Cloister, or a character from one? What Primal/Psionic class hybrids/fusions would you be most interested in exploring, from a flavor/lore perspective?
>>
>>67218435
Just because I'm from a Psionic/Primal society does not mean I need to be Psionic/Primal class. This is not Star Trek, people can have different foci - as long as they have some idea how they fit into society and what their chosen archetype means for their personal story.
That said, monk-druids are a fun concept though the body-paint wearing, wilderness meditating, face-clawing ascetic is not exactly what people associate with githzerai.
Psion-Shaman is another thematically cool one - you're exherting mastery over the universe with your mind, but also working with spirits? Maybe they're not even "real spirits" but figments given solidity through your interaction with primal powers?
>>
>>67218626
>This is not Star Trek, people can have different foci
wat
>>
Monk || Seeker sounds fun.

Battlemind || Seeker, Battlemind || Warden and Battlemind || Shaman all seem to be actually better defenders than just the standard Battlemind.
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>>67214342
Letting them start at 6 so they have two of each kind of power. We're just gonna play as long as it goes for, so it could go all the way up to 30.
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>>67216950
Interesting. You've just opened up the rebreather build to every race. Well, I guess it doesn't matter too much for homebrew, but now revenant tieflings are undoubtedly the strongest race in the game with this.
>>
>>67207269
what are you a communist? Language is meant to be free, not to be controlled


>>67216460
google 13th edition you will get the system reference document right away
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>>67206694
4e is better if you want a team boardgame where the story gets out of the way so you can keep fighting. 4e is also the easiest edition to DM

13e is better for puzzles, dungeons, storytelling and tacticool combat. Its 4e but with the role playing game restored.

inb4
>i don't want to help control the story as a player
you in the wrong genre
>muh grid
you can put the game on the grid with as much effort as it takes to fix the playerside math in 4e
>>
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>>67219431
Google adapts its results to the individual.
If googling "13th edition" really gives you 13th age (which I doubt) it can mean only one thing - that the AI at Google has figured out what we knew all along - that you are hopelessly and iredeemably insane.
>>
>>67219496
ya know, I don't mind sharing a thread with 4e descendants, but shitting on 4e basically unprovoked (and for stupid reasons to boot) makes me think you should just make your own general
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>>67221119
This thread is the rightful home of 13th edition
>>
>>67221119
He can't. 13th age threads die after 20 or so posts. No one gives a shit about it.
>>
>>67221458
Your home is there >>67221483
>>
Anons? Can anyone furnish me with a copy of the art for the male Incunabulum from Underdark? I got the female artwork, but I don't have the male counterpart.
>>
>>67218649
Star Trek is infamous for "This whole race acts like X"
>>
>>67218786

I have been thinking on the matter. The hybrid vampire really, really is not better off than a pure-classed vampire from levels 6 to 10. A hybrid vampire already makes the character build come crashing down, between armor proficiencies sinking all the way to cloth, healing surges likewise dropping down to 2, and the character being forced to select icky vampire encounter and daily attack powers.

It sounds preposterous, but I dare say that if a character has to be at least half-vampire in terms of class, then from levels 6 to 10, they would be better off as a non-hybrid vampire. They likely want to be a kapak draconian or a pixie with Dexterity 17+2 and Charisma 15+2 at level 1.
>>
Is there a way for Elf Monks to gain some advantage from their Bow proficiency? Obviously, they can use it as a weapon to channel Monk powers, and it's always fun when your backup ranged weapon is the same as your main class weapon.
But is there any other benefit you can get out of it?

>>67222771
>vampire pixie
A were-mosquito.
>>
Consider a pure hypothetical, a level 4 one-off. The character in question is an eladrin Intelligence warlord. The party composition is unknown, but generally suited to basic attacks. The warlord has Charisma modifier +2, Adaptive Stratagem for level 2 utility, and Vengeance is Mine and Powerful Warning for encounter attack powers. From a mechanical perspective, are they better off as Tactical Presence, or Resourceful Presence?

• Tactical Presence: -1 feat (Tactical Assault), party gets +2 attack and +Intelligence to action point attacks.
• Resourceful Presence: No feat spent, party gets +2+Intelligence to action point attacks (and 2+2 = 4 temporary hit points on a miss). Also, Adaptive Stratagem is handing out a +2 bonus to saving throws.

Suppose, for this experiment, that the character has an NAD feat as a bonus feat, and one other bonus feat of their choice. Aside from the bonus defense feat, then, the character has four feats to spend. Their desired feats are Eladrin Soldier (for greatspear proficiency, since they want reach and a Chieftain's greatspear +1), Tactical Inspiration, Hafted Defense, and an Expertise feat. If they opt for Tactical Presence, they must drop one of those feats for Tactical Assault.

>>67223342

Using a bow makes it easy to pick up an item bonus to damage rolls; all it takes is Bracers of Archery. That is just about the only benefit, however. Monks want everything from clubs (Crashing Tempest Style) to Staffs of Ruin (Shielding Whirlwind Style) to sickles (Slashing Kama Style) to longswords (Dancing Thorn Style for revenant eladrin) to daggers (Starblade Flurry) to hand crossbows (Unseen Hand paragon path), but bows give them nothing.
>>
is 4.5 a actual thing or just some running joke? I dont see anything in the pastebin
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>>67223669
Just a shitpost.
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>>67223658
>bows give them nothing
Sad.
Is there anything that can be done through hybridisation, or is the archer-monk a doome archetype to pursue?
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>>67223698
How sad of a general this is, if even the OP is a shitpost.
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>>67218435

I do not know where you are getting this idea that githzerai in 4e are a particularly psionic race.

http://funin.space/compendium/race/Githzerai.html
The string "psion" does not appear a single time in the githzerai race description, including its lore. Githzerai are no more psionic than any other race in 4e. Dragon Magazine #388 and Dragon Magazine #389 have articles on psionic racial traditions for various races, and githzerai are not mentioned a single time there.

The Monster Manual 1 contains no instances of the string "psion," not even in the githzerai entry. The githzerai are mentioned to be "psychic warriors" in page 130, but page 131 goes on to clarify that these "zerths" are actually those who blend martial and arcane training.

In Dragon Magazine #378's Playing Githzerai article article, the string "psion" appears exactly twice:
>Zuoken was once a powerful human monk and psionicist.
>Within githzerai culture, zerths are those who mix arcane arts with other skills and powers—particularly martial or psionic ones.

Now, consider that page 131 of the Monster Manual 1 specifically mentions githzerai zerths blending martial training with arcane power. Also consider that page 83 of Dragon Magazine #378 explicitly says:
>Githzerai value arcane magic, and they see Ioun as its true patron, avoiding Corellon’s fey passions.

Similarly, note the passage about zerths being grounded in arcane magic.
>These githzerai follow the example of Zerthimon, even if they do so unintentionally. Any githzerai who multiclasses or hybrids an arcane class with a non-arcane class can claim the honorific “zerth.”

From a lore perspective, githzerai are primarily arcane, not psionic. They value arcane magic, and githzerai zerths blend arcane magic with other power sources, most likely martial and psionic.
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>>67223754
Nearly everything in the op is a shitpost. The non-4e games listed by some 13th age fag trying to get people to play his shitty game. The obvious edition wars bait. The garbage advice below the pastebin.
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>>67223826

Consider the section on primal githzerai in Dragon Magazine #378 as well.

>Spirits
>Githzerai respect their ancestors, and they esteem the spirits around them. This latter point is especially true in worldly githzerai holdings. Such settlements are usually located in rugged and remote places, and each has a place that honors deceased githzerai.
>While meditating in hidden glades or other places of pristine natural beauty, or even in ancient githzerai shrines, numerous githzerai hear the whispers of the primal spirits, ancestral or otherwise. Some take more than inspiration from this communion. They tap into the primal power of the world to become better instruments for self-exploration and the defense of their people.
>Among the githzerai, Zerthimon is considered to be the greatest of the departed ancestors. Those who evoke the spirits or divine power use Zerthimon’s name often for guidance and inspiration. Githzerai legend holds that Zerthimon meditates forever within the realm of the spirits, marshalling his people toward greatness with his visions. Some say he might return one day, in the form of a mighty spirit, to lead the githzerai.

>Primal Cloister: The githzerai settlement you grew up in was located in an unblemished wilderness where the primal spirits were strong and vocal. Primal power was common among your elders, and honor for githzerai ancestors was plentiful. Although you no longer live in this place since you set out on your adventures, how did it influence your life? Do you dislike civilization, or do you see it as another of nature’s expressions? How do you now regard the spirits? Do you expect others to do the same?
>Associated Skills: Nature, Endurance
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>>67223926

There is no actual lore basis for primal githzerai having a propensity for mixing in psionic power. Most would likely be plain primal classes.

If anything, the lore suggests that power-source-dabbling primal githzerai would take up zerthhood (arcane multiclassed into primal, primal multiclassed into arcane, or hybrid arcane|primal), or worship Zerthimon simultaneously as a source of divine power and as an ancestral primal spirit (divine multiclassed into primal, primal multiclassed into divine, or hybrid divine|primal).

>>67223744

https://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?468788-Miscibility-Table-A-4e-Hybrid-Handbook(by-MwaO)

The hybrid handbook presents a few "interesting builds":
>Interesting Builds: Monk|Warden. Monk|Seeker. Monk|Invoker. Lots of other options work. Monk/Ranger can be surprisingly strong either Str/Dex or Dex/Wis depending on focus. Assuming you spend the hybrid talent feat on AC, essentially you're a Monk who has some other capability.

These are not exactly top-shelf builds, but I can see a monk|ranger working if you really want to occasionally fire off ranged attacks with a bow. Still, if you want to be an up-close-and-personal "bow kata" warrior, non-hybrid ranger is your best bet: wear Shadowdance leather armor, take Called Shot at paragon, and milk your Prime Shot class feature for all it is worth by firing right adjacent to your target. This is a surprisingly effective build.

This handbook and people like >>67218709 present the monk|seeker as a good build, but I just cannot see the synergy myself. The seeker has a very shaky foundation across its class features and its powers, save for a few outliers like Feyjump Shot, Wisp Shot, and Fey Commander's Lure.
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>>67218709

A battlemind indeed has plenty to gain from being a hybrid, such as an actually decent melee basic attack from being a battlemind|paladin, a battlemind|paladin (blackguard), a battlemind|paladin (cavalier), or a battlemind|warlock. I can see a battlemind|warden working for certain builds. However, I cannot quite grasp the merits of battlemind|seeker or battlemind|shaman. Could you please expound?
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>>67223826
>>67223926
>>67224007

...The githzerai don't get a writeup in the racial psionics articles, which are exploring how this "uncommon" or "unusual" magic source is perceived amongst races, because, as a sidebar points out, their cultures are literally based around psionic magic (because monks in 4e are psionic), you fucking retard.

>Psionic Races
>Although any race can master psionic magic through training and focus, for some races, psionic magic is more than just a tool. It is a cornerstone of their culture and history. The
following races have strong psionic connections.

>Githzerai (Player’s Handbook 3): These exiles find their inner turmoil reflected in the Elemental Chaos where they make their homes. Through meditation and physical training, they use psionic energy to balance their minds and stabilize their thoughts.

>Kalashtar (Eberron® Player’s Guide): Human
hosts to refugees escaped from Dal Quor, the
region of dreams, the kalashtar are all born with some psionic talent as evidenced in their ability to communicate telepathically.

>Shardmind (Player’s Handbook 3): As surviving fragments from the Living Gate that connected the Astral Sea to the Far Realm, the shardminds are attuned to psionic magic. They possess many psionic-themed traits that make them the quintessential psionic adventurers.

>Wilden (Player’s Handbook 3): Many wilden draw on psionic magic as a means to defeat enemies after the world awakened the wilden to combat the Far Realm’s intrusion.

This is itself acknowledging the race's LONG association with psionics in D&D history, since it has been associated with psionics and psionically talented literally since it debuted in AD&D 1st edition. The race was printed in the Psionics Handbooks for 3.X, for fuck's sake.

Seriously, if you could pull your head out of your ass and not be focused on triple-platinum rated mechanical optimization, you would be far more tolerable.
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>>67223669
It's an accusation (actually originally first used by the 4e community) thrown at Essentials, noting them as sufficiently different from core 4e materials to be a distinct entity.

It's been adopted by a new malcontented poster, who, after several days with little sleep, became very heavily invested in the idea of discussing 13th Age more thoroughly in these threads, (since it is one of several games made to evoke, replicate, or continue the trends present in the mechanics and lore of 4e . It was even co-designed by the lead designer of early 4e.) ...which he did rather poorly, because of his lack of sleep making his posts rather broken up, an aggressive tone and attitude, a prolific posting rate, and so on. This lead to the last thread OP openly and directly EXCLUDING 4e-derived games, in order to minimize his contributions. Then, when that thread hit bump limit, someone (perhaps him, perhaps not) created THIS OP, as a way to troll the overall general.

>>67223754
It's more that we lack the community size to endure forcing out the aspects of the game/community we don't approve of. /5eg/, as the new hotness, can afford to tell its homebrew faction to "get their own thread", and they do. If 13th Age tries to get its own thread, it dies out in 20 posts. Similarly, there is a divide between those who think the proper way to play 4e is to fully embrace the process of character optimization, in order to make efficient parties that overcome harsh combat challenges, while others feel that many of the tactics and systems used to create such effective characters undermine general enjoyment of the game, and the freedom to play the options desired. (Less prominently in discussion, but probably MORE prominent in play is the third faction, who say "Just play whatever your group plays.") Neither side has the numbers to endure on its own, so we band together in quarrelsome alliance.
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>>67224163

You are correct. I was looking in Dragon Magazine #388 and #389's headers, and missed the sidebar that mentions githzerai. I should have ran a Ctrl+F search myself.

Now, we have multiple sources. Dragon Magazine #378 says that githzerai value arcane magic (with no mention of them valuing psionics over other power sources). Dragon Magazine #378 also highlights their arcane-oriented zerths and their divine and primal traditions.

Meanwhile, Dragon Magazine #388 instead plays up their connection to the psionic power source.

I can see a character from one of these primal cloisters either being a pure primal class or mixing primal magic with arcane, divine, *or* psionic magic. There is no expectation that it must be primal|psionic in the slightest.

>This is itself acknowledging the race's LONG association with psionics in D&D history, since it has been associated with psionics and psionically talented literally since it debuted in AD&D 1st edition. The race was printed in the Psionics Handbooks for 3.X, for fuck's sake.
Other editions have no bearing on a 4e discussion. They are not germane. 4e is its own game with its own setting and its own mechanics, and it is best to study it on its own merits.

>Seriously, if you could pull your head out of your ass and not be focused on triple-platinum rated mechanical optimization, you would be far more tolerable.
This is a lore discussion that ties into class selection. It is not a mechanics discussion. The optimization level of any of the aforementioned classes is not pertinent until someone starts to mechanically weigh the pros and cons of such combinations.
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>>67224186
>If 13th Age tries to get its own thread
How about shunning just the shitposter instead of the game they supposedly like, but never talk about.
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>>67224186

From my perspective, as I have come to learn time and again, Discord servers are almost infinitely better for reliably and consistently discussing a game and its mechanics than /tg/ threads. For example, /tg/ has a reasonably active Pathfinder general thread, but that very thread has spawned a handful of Discord servers; a great majority of the veterans and experts migrated from Pathfinder General over to those Discord servers, because they were ultimately a better venue for in-depth discussion of the game.

The same goes for 4e. I am currently in two separate Discord servers with a small (i.e. single-digit) contingent of active 4e veterans and optimization experts. With a few exceptions, generally, if I want to discuss something related to 4e's mechanics, I pitch my question to both of those Discord servers, and I am guaranteed to receive at least a handful of well-thought-out replies from people who know what they are doing as optimizers.

For example, take my question about Tactical vs. Resourceful in >>67223658. This was something I was personally wondering about myself. I asked in this thread, and thus far, I have received no answers. Meanwhile, I pitched the question to both of those Discord servers I am in. Even though they each had only a single-digit contingent of 4e experts, I garnered a number of intelligent and reasoned responses on the topic.

I stick around in these threads because I have the free time to do so, but they are an awful venue for actually talking about 4e. If I want to discuss its mechanics with people I know I can count on, and people who know the game genuinely well, I bring the matter up to Discord servers (even those with only single digits of active members), not to this thread.

Discord is simply the superior method for genuinely discussing a game in-depth, whether in an itty-bitty server that emphasizes quality over quantity, or a massive server with hundreds of members.
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>>67223826
Assuming this is a legitimate argument on your part, 2hu, I believe the issue here is that you've failed to pick up on extensive psionic CODING the designers gave githzerai in their descriptions. Which I can understand, given your atypical neurology. But I assure you, the descriptions present heavily imply psionic involvement.

Note the times the lore states that the gith master or seek to master "mind and X". Now note that the PHB (page 54), notes that psionics are the powers of the mind, distinct from arcane forces.

Consider the numerous references to asceticism, monasteries, and martial arts, all connected in D&D to the Monk class, which in 4e is Psionic.

Note that the MM Gith all have an "Unarmed Strike" attack, a term intimately connected with previous editions' Monk classes, a phrase used NOWHERE ELSE in the MM1, and only cited in the Weapon keywords of MM2 and MM3.


Also, you mis-conjugated your second argument. The Zerths are NOT asserted to be the "Psychic Warriors" of the Gith, but rather ALL Gith are asserted to be psychic warriors, and the Zerth are those who, in addition to being martial artists (again, invoking the monk), study arcane powers.

The first Gith monster entry is for the Cenobite, which means "member of a monastic community".

The Gith are constantly connected to Monks, monkhood, and the powers of the Mind, which is a stand-in phrase for Psionics.
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>>67224717
Perhaps, 2hu, no one felt like answering your question because you've established that you care far more about mechanical details than the majority of the posters here, and therefore no one felt like they wanted to TRY and answer you, just to have you pick apart their arguments.

Perhaps the majority of /tg/ posters do not see "which is the superior option in this specific thought experiment with multiple stated criteria whose relative VALUE is unstated, because I come from a community who's trained themselves to think in a specific way and therefore have no need to justify the choices to them" as being the same thing as "discussing 4e".
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>>67224747

I do not make "illegitimate" arguments, or at least, I do not try to. There is no point in doing otherwise.

This is where things get tricky, because if we are looking at actual monster statistics, they break the "rules." They do not have power sources, and they simply receive whatever abilities the writers find appropriate.

An NPC monk is not a PC monk. They may be martial, they may be psionic, they may be a mix, they may be neither. The githzerai cenobite in the Monster Manual 1 is probably a monk, but not necessarily a PC class monk. They *could* be psionic, lore-wise, but they may not be.

Take the orc storm shaman, for example.
http://funin.space/compendium/monster/Orc-Storm-Shaman.html

Just because it says "shaman" does not mean that this is a primal-magic-using orc. Indeed, the flavor text in page 229 of the Monster Vault says:
>"Whether it calls on some violent primal spirit, on a savage primordial of wind and thunder, or on a demon prince of storms, an orc storm shaman is a force to be reckoned with."
So that orc storm shaman could very well be primal, elemental, arcane, or possibly even another power source altogether, like a divine magician of Kord, or a psionic electrokineticist. This is because an NPC shaman is not, in fact, the same as a PC shaman.

The same goes for the githzerai cenobite in the Monster Manual 1. That specimen could be martial, psionic, or maybe even something stranger or blurrier.

If you want to play a githzerai from a "primal cloister," do not limit yourself to primal|psionic. Consider what you want to play from a number of metrics, whether lore-oriented or mechanics-oriented, and then go with that.

>>67224867

There is no reason why discussing 4e from a viewpoint of mechanics and optimization is any less valid than discussing 4e from other perspectives.
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>>67224867

>therefore no one felt like they wanted to TRY and answer you, just to have you pick apart their arguments
Also, I would like to point out that this is called "discourse," and it is an important part of trying to hold a discussion on a topic.

Person A asks a question about topic X. Persons B and C give their perspectives. Using pointed questions, person A asks persons B and C to expound on their perspectives. The discourse continues.

In the above scenario, if person A was to simply automatically accept the answers of persons B and C without question, then the discussion would stop right then and there.

>>67224916

As another example of how NPCs do not quite obey the same naming schemes and power sources as PCs, consider the Dark Moon Monks, detailed in pages 240 to 241 of the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide.

>Dark Moon Monks
>OTHER FAITHS MAINTAIN KNIGHTLY ORDERS, but Shar’s sect favors stealthy, terrifying assassins. These fanatics not only work for the church, they also police Shar’s clergy and other followers.
>Headquarters: Dark Moon Monastery, Purskul, Amn.
>Hierarchy: A monastery’s leader adds “abbot” or “abbess” to the end of the parental title common for Sharrans; for example, “dark mother abbess.”
>Members: Dark Moon monks come from among Shar’s faithful, but no ordained priest can train in the order. The group prefers those who also have a talent for arcane or shadow powers. Most of the order’s monks have also mastered a few dark rituals.
>When they are not within a Sharran temple or monastery, these monks keep secret shrines and training grounds in remote areas. They also form sleeper cells within settlements where Shar’s worship is unwelcome, maintaining hideouts for fellow Sharrans.
http://funin.space/compendium/monster/Dark-Moon-Monk.html

An NPC monk is not necessarily the same as a PC monk. The Dark Moon monk above is some mix of arcane, shadow, and possibly even divine.
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>>67224747
No argument about the rest of your post, but
>asceticism, monasteries, and martial arts
This could just as easily mean "martial", since these are all valid ways to attain martial mastery.
Not all monks are "Monk" class. Indeed, at least some of them would be fighters, rogues, rangers, avengers, invokers and clerics.
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>>67183787
>4.5e
sorry, is that essentials or is there something actually worth looking into?
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>>67225032
>this is called "discourse"
Not really. That formalized system you described can be a PART of discourse, but it is not the sum totality of it.

And indeed, in non-formalized settings, it's seen as something of a pain or imposition to be too precise or pointed with your questions, which you have shown NO capability to avoid doing. Indeed, many people DON'T particularly enjoy that kind of conversation or "discourse", because it makes them feel like their contributions are simply canvases for you to tear apart on your way to making your point.

And when conducted by someone perceived to be more informed, it can easily be viewed as badgering, or a rhetorical 'trap for the above system.

LIke your point here>>67224916

The ENTIRETY of your point is "they don't necessarily mean legitimate MONKS when they say monks, because monster stat-blocks use inaccurate words frequently". Which misses the point entirely. The Githzerai have been psionicists and monks IN THE PC SENSE for decades. If they WEREN'T intended to be viewed as those, it would be on the writers to establish that. (Like splitting High and Wood Elves into Eladrin and Elves) Instead, they chose to write what would be recognizable and familiar codifiers to those knowledgeable of the race's history.

Again:

They're psychic warriors, seeking to master body and mind, who live in monasteries and use unarmed strikes. That paints a very clear picture of what class they're implying.

Maybe not EVERY Gith is a monk, or a psionic, but it's clearly established as the baseline expectation.

I agree that a Primal Cloister gith is not necessarily Primal/Psionic, or even Primal OR Psionic.

My argument is your dismissal of the concept of Githzerai as a race connected with Psionics because you can't find "psion" in their text is a flawed argument, because it ignores the vast majority of human communication and the very concept of existence as an enduring continuum.

(Cont)
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>>67225673

And even if we USE your methodology, (and by extension, refute the point made here >>67225148) there's plenty of evidence to support the argument that the Gith are clearly intended to be monks

Fun fact: do you know the ONLY LOCATIONS in the 3 PHBs and MM1 where the word "ascetic" or "asceticism" are used? In descriptions of the Githzerai, and the Monk class. (though, if you include the MM2, there is one reference to Oni disguising themselves as ascetics, which could be a reference to monks, or could be something else.)

Do you know the only references to "monastic" lifestyles across all three PHBs and the MMs refer to Monks, which is even MORE IMPRESSIVE, because of the next point.

The only references to MONASTERIES outside of the context of Monks and the Gith are to Avengers, who are trained in "secret temples", later referred to as "monasteries". Paladins contain no references to monks, monastic life, or monasteries. Nor do Clerics or Invokers.

Again: coding, and connotation. the Gith are ascetic because MONKS are ascetic.
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>>67225673

>many people DON'T particularly enjoy that kind of conversation or "discourse", because it makes them feel like their contributions are simply canvases for you to tear apart on your way to making your point.
Then we are already in a poor position for actually discussing the mechanics of 4e.

>The Githzerai have been psionicists and monks IN THE PC SENSE for decades
Again, other editions have no bearing on a 4e discussion. They are not germane. 4e is its own game with its own setting and its own mechanics, and it is best to study it on its own merits.

>My argument is your dismissal of the concept of Githzerai as a race connected with Psionics because you can't find "psion" in their text is a flawed argument
No, I already conceded that Dragon Magazine #388 does point out their psionic status in a sidebar that I missed, here: >>67224416

>>67225850

>Fun fact: do you know the ONLY LOCATIONS in the 3 PHBs and MM1 where the word "ascetic" or "asceticism" are used?
Conversely, the word "ascetic" is used elsewhere. For example, Stonefire Ragers are a *barbarian* paragon path who are said to be ascetics who gather in monasteries.
http://funin.space/compendium/paragonpath/Stonefire-Rager.html

I do not see your point here. My ultimate point is that there is no reason why a primal cloister character needs to be primal|psionic specifically.

Githzerai can be arcane, divine, martial, primal, psionic, or what-have-you. Same as any other race. They are not special in that regard.

If we do want to get into actual optimization and mechanics, githzerai are perhaps most noteworthy for Githzerai Blade Master, which appears in a fair number of avenger builds and revenant builds, amongst others. Zuoken's Centering is not a bad paragon feat for people multiclassing into monk, either.
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>>67225850
>>67225673
And people call 2hu autistic
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>>67225980
>then we are already in a poor position for actually discussing the mechanics of 4e

In the way you discuss them, certainly. In the average meaning of "discussion", not particularly.

>Other editions have no bearing on a 4e discussion
This is an illegitimate argument, and utter horseshit. 4e as a game is created and derived from mechanics, lore, and expectations set by preceding editions. It's as incorrect, and openly ignorant, as saying a person's parents have no bearing on their life, or that it's not germane to discuss the effects of historical events on current ones.

>I already conceded their psionic status
But your initial argument contained flaws not addressed in your concession. If we're to engage in a proper 'discourse' as you call it, it would be lax of me not to make pointed counters/questions to your statement simply because you yielded the conclusion on other grounds.
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>>67226384
When in Rome, anon.

Though most discussions of coding and connotation also come off as hair-splitting and/or autistic because you're directly unpacking assumed and implicit meaning, which always sounds weird and clunky.
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>>67226384
Actually, this is a good example of the claim made here >>67225673, or at least a parallel point, for you, 2hu >>67225980

In addition to being too precise or pointed, being too thorough in your reaction to a statement or question is similarly seen as a negative.

Most people do not connect with the kind of academic, legalistic, detail-focused arguments and procedures of more critical analysis. They end up being off-putting, because they don't match standard conversational speech, and create a sense of excessive inspection or "attack".

Which is partly where your mechanical-focused discussion hits a wall with the posters here: your mechanical questions are, by their nature, very precise and detailed. Further, they're marked by your distinctive posting style, both of which minimize the average person's desire to respond. Like, around half of the details of your Warlord example could have been condensed, excised, and the remainder explained to up the chance of input...in the hour and 20 minutes during the middle of a workday (in my region at least) that you had posted it before you complained about not getting an answer.
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>>67226432
>>67226828
>And people call 2hu autistic
>>
Why haven't you jumped ship to 13th edition where we can put all this behind us?
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>>67227650
Because I'm already walking forward. Why would I turn around and go the opposite way I want to go?
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>>67227650
Because I don't like 13th age, man.
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>>67226432
>>67226828
Meta-discussions in general threads are the real cancer.
>>
>>67227950
13e is the real edition walking forward
>>
>>67228861
>Dead game full of trannies and patreon paywalls is the way forward
>>
>>67229120
better than pulling punches 4e edition
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>>67228233
The great and terrible thing about 4chan is there's so many different kinds of cancer.

Shills, Char-op, anti-char-op, meta-discussion, brain-dead posters. Hell, the very existence of general threads is cancerous to oldfags, who are also cancer.
>>
>>67229213
13th edition is the solution forward.
>>
>>67224186
and someone was impersonating me copying my memes spammed pulling punches 900 times
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>>67225255
its essentials play 13th edition
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>>67227951
why?
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>>67231787
13th edition doesn't let the DM pull punches.
>>
This guy shilling 13th Age is making me want to get rid of the book I bought
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>>67232022
I'll confess he quasi-motivated me to buy one.

In the sense that I'd been meaning to pick up a new one and just kept forgetting, and his obnoxious shilling happened to start right before I went to the gaming shop, reminding me to pick it up while I was there.
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>>67232061
4e BTFO.
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>>67232022
dont fall for the kikery
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>>67232408
>>67231990
>>
2hu did you ever play atlas reactor?
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>>67226384
Lore/fluff autism more tolerable than mechanics autism though.
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>>67229198
Everything is pulling punches if you try hard enough.
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>>67229213
I find the meta-discussion in this thread to be interesting, usually you don't see someone having a well detailed back and forth with 2hu.
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>>67234433
>well detailed
No, it's really dumb.
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>>67234433
Meta discussion is bad because the anti 2hu guy spends more time crying about the 'PROPER' way to discuss 4e than talking about the damn game.
>>
So, what are some things you guys think it's important for players and DMs starting 4e to learn? I'm working on a sort of intro adventure, and want to see if there's specific things I can highlight to help give people a solid foundation for the rest of their time with the system. "Build Fights with interesting terrain and varied enemies" is a given for DM info, as is "learn positioning and teamwork" for players, anything else leap out as important for players to get right away?
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>>67234556
>important for players and DMs starting 4e to learn
The tone of the game and what the rules represent.
The actual rules.
The fucking character creation chapter, so your characters stop being blank constructs with a vapid backstory.
>>
>>67234569
>What the rules represent

You mean like, daily powers being a narrative conceit, healing surges for long-term stamina reserves, and so on?
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>>67234446
>>67234482
You're probably right, I'm just very tired. Also it's nice to see other posts that aren't 2hu, pulling punches, or 13th Age shill.

>>67234556
What >>67234569 is saying is correct, although I'd say the bit on vapid backstory really applies to most tabletop roleplaying games.
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>>67234556
telling them to try 13e instead
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>>67234617
Yeah. And let your players know that 4e is action movie style high fantasy.
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>>67236821
I too have found that being up front with this aspect of 4e is helpful.
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>>67237962
being up front that they should use 13e instead is helpful too
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>>67183787
>4e ruining faerun

Death of Mystra. Depowering of Elminster.. Spellplague. Abeir crashing into Toril. 4E literally ruined Faerûn.
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>>67239015
play faerun in 13e instead
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>>67239015
>4E literally ruined Faerûn.
(and that's a good thing)
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>>67239015
Faerun, the world, did get totally fucked. You're right. The setting is much better narratively in 4e though.
>>
This desperate shilling for 13th Age is really embarrassing
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>>67239415
4e BTFO
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How does Arcane Admixture work with spells that deal multiple types of damage like Prismatic Beams?
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>>67240869
Normally.
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>>67240926
so, if I admixture Thunder will Prismatic beams look like this?

Prismatic Beams
Daily — Arcane, Evocation, Fire, Implement, Poison, Thunder
Standard Action — Close blast 5

Target: Each enemy in the blast
Attack: Intelligence vs. Fortitude, Reflex, and Will. You make a single attack roll and use it against each defense.

Hit (Fortitude): Ongoing 10 poison and thunder damage (save ends).
Hit (Reflex): 2d6 + Intelligence modifier fire and thunder damage, and ongoing 5 fire and thunder damage (save ends).
Hit (Will): The target is dazed (save ends).
>>
Shadarkai dimensional sword mage is the most fun character I've played because teleporting around the table smacking things is fun.
>>
>>67241000

That is just about correct. Generally, however, you would not want to use Arcane Admixture on a daily attack power. It is generally more for at-will powers or crucial encounter powers.

>>67241024

Shadar-kai have a decent racial encounter power for defense, and some people might like to upgrade it with Doom of Jiksidur and/or Drowning of Nhalloth.

Generally, however, if you want to do a teleporting swordmage build, the usual go-to for that is a swordmage|warlock entering the Evermeet Warlock, Feytouched, or Long Night Scion paragon path. Ethereal Sidestep, a level 10 warlock at-will power, has good synergy with those three.
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>>67241000

>>67241455
>Generally, however, you would not want to use Arcane Admixture on a daily attack powe
Generally, yes howewer admixturing Thunder to Prismatic Beams increases area of dazing attack. (Prismatic Beams is not normally enlargeable).

>so, if I admixture Thunder will Prismatic beams look like this?
Yes, however note that feat Thunder's Rumble gives damage bonus only to damage rolls so it won't increase ongoing damage.
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>>67242141
How much of your build is already set in stone?
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>>67242141

Close blast 5 simply becomes a close blast 6 with Resounding Thunder, which is a marginal improvement. Furthermore, it is still a daily attack power. Usually, that is not worth spending a feat on Arcane Admixture for.

If you are interested in getting Resounding Thunder on your wizard attacks, consider the Malec-Keth Janissary (Prismatic Beams is level 15 anyway). Some builds focused on close bursts and close blasts might prefer the Devoted Orator.
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>>67242141

Also, yes, you can, in fact, use Enlarge Spell on Prismatic Beams. It includes a damage roll.

http://funin.space/compendium/feat/Enlarge-Spell.html
>>
>>67242709
Doesn't it say right there on Enlarge Spell, that it only works on Wizard At-Will and Encounter attacks? Prismatic Beams is a Daily.
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>>67242908

My apologies, yes. I was looking at the feat text in Arcane Power and simply linked the Compendium entry. I did not recall the errata to it.
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>>67242709
>Also, yes, you can, in fact, use Enlarge Spell on Prismatic Beams. It includes a damage roll.

No, you can't .Enlarge Spell feat says:
>You can’t use this feat on a power that doesn’t roll dice for damage.

Prismatic Beams deals ongoing 10 poison damage (and separate ongoing 5 fire damage), so it can't be Enlarged.
>>
>>67243030
I believe it can, since the attack vs Reflex rolls 2d6 + Int mod, as well as ongoing 5 fire (save ends). Its just a weird case where it has automatic ongoing damage on a hit, and damage you roll on a different hit.

>>67242969
Looking at the old entry, and man it seems pretty busted. I'd imagine it'd be worth it on Sorcerers back then to pop 2 feats for that, considering how many burst and blasts they have.
>>
>>67243030
I'd rule with>>67243139


Since there's a component of the power that rolls dice for damage, the power as a whole "rolls dice for damage", and isn't excluded.
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A long, long time ago, I heard about the Lazy Warlord build, where basically you move creatures around and grant attacks, and never make attacks yourself.
Does that build still exist, and if so, how do you make it, what do you know about it, etc.

Pic for attention grabbing
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>>67246635
Basically it's normal warlord but worse. You just take all the powers that aren't dependent on you hitting to have effect. This has the "benefit" of letting you go Int|Cha, but really you only ever needed Int in the first place. Obviously don't run this build in parties lacking MBAs.
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>>67247054
Do any races go especially well with it? (besides just taking any Int or Int/Cha race)
Feats?
Other details?
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>>67246635
My friend played one, got all the info on how to do it from this https://web.archive.org/web/20141102151444/http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/3379971.

IIRC He played a Human wearing Hide (because his Int mod was high enough that Hide was equal to Chain, but without speed penalty), he dumped Str and made it an 8, and I think had equal Int and Cha, definitely was a Resourceful Warlord. Basically picked up all the no action attacks (Commander's Strike, Direct the Strike, Powerful Warning, Vengeance is Mine, Lead by Example (a power that hilariously is better if you miss, which you probably will by dumping Str)). He had Lend Might and Lend Strength, and used a Chieftain's Longspear. Game didn't get past level 6 but was fun shit.

As>>67247054 is saying, it's like technically suboptimal or whatever, but if you know what your party is (read: any Essentials class that relies on basic attacks or any Str based melee really), you basically pocket that person and make them feel fucking amazing. I would know, I played a Warforged Knight and was demolishing every enemy thanks to the Warlord player joining in a few sessions later but knowing how my character worked and built his Warlord specifically to synergize with my Knight
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>>67247145
Probably anything with Int/Cha (Eladrin, Pixie, etc) but the friend who was playing the Warlord chose Human because he roleplayed as this commanding Spartan type, and the character started at level 3, so the bonus feat helped out a lot.

Looking at his sheet, he also picked up Hafted Defense, and Expert Combat Commander, so whole party had like a what? +3 or 4 Initiative? Shit was awesome.
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Did the 4e stuff get taken out of the trove?
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>>67247321
No it's there under Books>Dungeons abd Dragons>AD&D 4th Edition
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One more question.
I know I saw alternate steps to installing the character builder, to keep it from eventually re-downloading and fucking itself.
Adding a -d to something, or running some additional steps.
Does anyone know what I'm talking about?

>>67247421
Thanks. I guess I'm retarded.
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>>67247759
https://github.com/CBLoader/CBLoader/wiki/Getting-Started
It's the "hard patch" mode described here. Use https://ufile.io/k1evk45j as your "custom" file during the hard patch.
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>>67247805
Thanks a lot
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>>67247759
Nah man, I just went through this myself. So what you do when installing it, before even launching CBLoader, make a shortcut of it, and on the shortcut, go to properties, in the file name and add the -d after the shortcut name looking like this Someone tried to tell me to do the hard patch, but then didn't explain how to do it, and the github link utterly confused me.

D&D 4E Offline Character Builder\CBLoader.exe" -d
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book of ages is fucking based
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>>67247054

There is a single scenario wherein the lazy warlord actually has a sense of mechanical vindication, and that is as an epic-tier Battle Captain with Supreme Inspiration and Fight On. It is very niche, true, so for the most part, it is worse than your standard-issue Intelligence warlord. Bracers of Mental Might may be able to finance a single Hail of Steel each encounter, but that will require investing in actual attacks anyway, thus defeating the point of ever having been "lazy" to start with.

It would help if >>67246635 was to mention their starting level and the level range they intend on playing at.

>>67247146
>>67247203

These people have the right of it. Eladrin and pixie are likely the two best races for a "lazy" warlord, the former because of feat support (e.g. Tactical Inspiration), the latter for mobility (i.e. super-jumping flight) and defenses (e.g. Teeny Target).

Generally, for a lazy warlord, you almost certainly want a Chieftain's Weapon, either a longspear for reach and Hafted Defense, or a one-handed spear so that the off-hand can accommodate a light shield (possibly a Rhythm Blade).

Strikers with a strong basic attack are a lazy warlord's best ally, obviously. So while a fighter (knight) can be sufficient, a fighter (slayer) or a rogue (thief) can be completely over-the-top. This, of course, comes with the downside that someone in the party is playing a fighter (slayer) or a rogue (thief).
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If I'm retraining feats at every possible opportunity, how many Epic feats can 30 level character have?
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>>67250913
16, assuming there's no items or abilities that allow additional retraining.

You gain 6 feats over the course of the epic levels, and you can retrain one previous feat into an epic one at every level 21-30.
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Alright /4eg/ my friends who have dabbled in 4E once ages ago are willing it a try for 1 module, I have chosen Madness at Gardmore Abbey, I know nothing about it besides Deck of Many Things and that it is quite good apparently. Has anybody run it and if so could they give me some advice on starting it? As I was talking to them about the prospect of running the game, I was skimming the module in question, and I was getting overloaded with information, as I needed 3 books open at once (the book containing the plot elements, the second book with enemies and allies, and the third book with the first batch of encounters), and I could not figure out how to start the adventure as there was way too much plot hooks, and I couldn't tell how it flows.

One of the players suggested I start the game in media res, as it'll be a little easier on me, so I decided to go with the Lord Padraig quest chain as the intro (I plan on having them approach the first area, explain what their quest is, then beginning play, and then having like one of the cards fly in the wind and land in front of them obviously since apparently they need at least 1 to start the adventure), but I'm also worried about the whole Deck being split up inside the dungeon and figuring out how to place it, etc. Just too many details to worry about and I can't figure out how to start the first session, which is why I'm asking, since I think once I can get a good explanation of how the events are supposed to flow, I can figure out the rest from there.



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