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Why do people hate the fact that wizards, fucking *wizards* of all things, are more of a big deal/bigger fish than, say, a person who can swing a blade or axe really well? I understand it depends on the setting, but generalities take priority here. It's the same in settings like WoD, why does it bother so many that vampires and werewolves lose to mages? D&D where it isn't about PvP *at all*…?

Also why is it only here of all places that such stigmas are even a thing?
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Pic related, you disingenuous retard.
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>>66727309
Stale bait. Try harder next time.
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AKSUALLY there are no magic in REAL LIFE and it is certainly possible to have powerful physique with excellent brains, but somehow nerds made imaginary world where not physically powerful means supreme power.
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>>66727309
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>>66727309
Because nobody like to play with a faggot who has a book of cheat codes they can use the handwave away every problem ever with no actual effort or roleplaying. This is doubly true when you've built your character to specialize in something and said faggot can do it better with a spell.

Then again, this is really only a problem in DnD and other similar shit games where magic can do anything and everything and magic-users aren't forced to specialize or actually focus on something.
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It's a game, and nothing is less fun then not being able to play because someone else picked the "right" option.
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>>66727350
>>66727369
>>66727450
You're all right. But you're not going to get anywhere in this thread.
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Mage stepping on other class toe.
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>>66727309
It's a shame that magic is usually shit in most video games.

You think being able to blast people with the arcane would be more effective than some retard swinging a sword.
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>>66727529
If magic were more effective at combat too, there'd pretty much be no reason to not play a magic-user. We'd be right back to DnD's shitty game-design philosophies.
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>>66727309
Because if two characters of same or similar level are not comparable in power/utility/etc it's shit game design and you may just throw the levels altogether.
D&D has levels hard-coded into its system, it's impossible to do away with them. Yet the power disparity between characters of same level is there.

Now try to DM that bullshit. This is why I liked 4e, it was a lot simpler to run, without having to worry about one player cakewalking everything or everyone else dying just to give that one player a decent challenge.
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>>66727350
>rogue player
I feel you
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>>66727309
>2019
>Still playing games where there's a clear divide between casters and non-casters
>Not playing superior settings where, if magic exists, it's actually an integrated part of the world that everyone can take advantage of instead of just being tacked-on afterwards.

Have you tried not playing DnD?
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>>66727529
Depends on the game, really. But even the shittiest games tend to make magic types highly specialized, relatively balanced with mundane, gives martials their own non-mundane or otherwise superhuman capacities, and/or ties it to an actually meaningful resource system. D&D and its clones refuses to do all these for God knows what reason.
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You can be a reality warping demigod as a wizard, but a martial at same "level" as you will be a super saiyan.
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>>66727616
>super saiyan
So you want your martial to be magic as well
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>>66727627
Not really, he's just super strong. Mundanely. ;)
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>>66727309


>generalities take priority
The "general" depiction of those who dabble in witchcraft and sorcery prior to 1950s was that incantations took a long time, magic was mercurial, and that martials usually could break any sorcery with cunning and\or willpower. Why doesn't casterfags succumb to the accepted general rules, but instead keep eroding any drawbacks to casting, edition after edition?
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>>66727450
what things can everyone do that martials can't do?

Amend your bait
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>>66727579
Based. If both easily learnable magic and adventuring as an occupation exist, then it makes no sense for everyone not to be a gish.
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>>66727786
Not him, but the joke is that martials have to dump stats like intelligence and charimsa to be good at being martials, meaning they often end up as socially-repugnant drooling retards even by comparison to your average mud-farming peasant.
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>>66727309
Not everyone wants to play a wizard but everyone likes to be able to meaningfully contribute to a party. Noth that you actually play DnD or any tabletop game at all.
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>>66727529
The Elder Scrolls series, especially recent installments, are actually pretty hilarious in this regard. Weapon damage outpaces spell damage at an utterly ridiculous rate, because almost all bonuses to weapons multiplies damage, while almost all bonuses to magic only reduce casting cost.
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You've already made this thread hundreds of times. We've seen thousands of them, you will get no new points or interesting concepts here. Four or five actually interesting thoughts will be made in this thread, of which have already been catalogued in this PDF. Read this, play a different game, learn to GM better, and have sex.
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>>66727887

That always has been very unfun with magic in those games. Sure, you can DBZ beam forever but you're not killing shit before long.
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>>66727901
And nobody has ever used your retarded 50 ways to gay, your point?
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>>66727529
I always, always gamify magic. If there is no example of it working in a video game supposedly based off the ruleset, it can't work at all.
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>>66727901
Literally the only good advice here is "play a different game".
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Because characters who are good at swinging a sword feel useless. The thing is, Wizards aren't special in these games. They're common. There's a lot of them. They are a bigger deal but to make it seem like magic is something that's rare and unique at a table is deceptive. Wizards are standard and common. The world is made for them. Every challenge made around the idea that the wizard could just say "I will pay you spell slots to fuck off", every encounter with enemies that can survive at least one fireball, everything is made with Wizards in mind and not other characters. And that makes them fucking frustrating to both other players and some DMs, because players feel useless and the DM's work gets hand-waived.

The fact of the matter is, magic is not good game design.
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>>66727994
>The thing is, Wizards aren't special in these games. They're common. There's a lot of them.
>The fact of the matter is, magic is not good game design.
Maybe stop playing D&D
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>>66727627
Dumb wizard can't rationalize a choke slam.
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>>66727994
>DnD claims magic is rare
>70% of the classes in the game use it
>100+ pages, over an entire third of the handbook book is devoted to magic exclusively
>Meanwhile skills get all of 2 pages with vague non-explanations

Sounds like shit game design to me, friend, Have you considered playing games that aren't absolute shit and don't need magic as a crutch to do anything interesting?
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>>66727887
Oblivion has decent magic. It's Skyrim that really dropped the ball
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>>66727627
Magic shouldn't be some isolated phenomena. If magic exists in setting supernatural feats should be more common.

By this train of logic imagine if the only people who could use computers in our world were computer scientists.
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>>66727887
Yeah, not being able to do meaningful damage on Destruction past the early game fucking blew, had to resort to mods. However, the other schools were way OP, much like D&D. Illusion assassin is absurd.
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>>66727887
>the ekder scrolls series
>SERIES
Funny, I remember one hit kill spells, permanent paralysis, and spells that made people launch themselves through the air. Are you sure you weren't just talking about skyrim when you said "series"
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>>66728392
>>66728480
What's the best mods that make destruction magic and such actually viable?

I know conjuration is ok in vanilla with like two dremora lords but that takes forever to get and conjuration is lame.
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Have you tried playing 4e?
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I'll never understand why D&D insists on letting casters learn a multitude of spells from different schools. Sure they half heartedly implemented a Choose One-Two Forbidden Schools gimmick but that wasn't a balancing factor at all since the benefits were always +X to spell DC saves for other schools and there were so many overlapping spells with similar effects that banning one school was always an easy choice (Conjuration has almost always had better blasting spells than Evocation for example). What was the point of creating different schools in the first place if you weren't going to actually mechanically enforce that an Abjurer is a wizard who "emphasizes magic that blocks, banishes, or protects" by limiting his spell list to the school of abjuration? You can be a devoted student-nay, MASTER-of the school of Transmutation who barely knows any spells from his school and exclusively casts Necromancy spells. Is that not the stupidest thing you've ever heard of, especially when almost every other class has always been forced into a niche by their class features/archetypes?

Limiting casters to their chosen school is an easy and fair solution to a lot of caster dominance problems, and that it's never been implemented just shows how obsessed the power gaming autists creating D&D systems are with wizards dominating the game.
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Assuming that Unearthed Arcana (and thus Lore Master) are banned, are 5e wizards really that egregious as full spellcasters compared to bards, clerics, Moon druids, and sorclocks?

At best, you could be a durable svirfneblin Abjuration wizard, or annoy the DM twice a day as a Divination wizard? But you die basically instantly, your spell slots can only go so far if the DM actually tries to stretch out the adventuring day as per the Dungeon Master's Guide, and cantrips are not that good.

Single-class sorcerers are the full casters who get the short end of the stick, huh?
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>>66727579
>>66727627
>>66727616
Book of 9 Swords of D&D.
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>>66728274
>magic and the supernatural is different
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>>66727994
>The fact of the matter is, magic is not good game design.
Correction, D&D magic that can do ten billion different things on the same build, let alone the same class, at no cost but spell slots, is not good game design. It's honestly baffling to me how many D&D players will defend the ridiculous idiosyncrasies of D&D magic, which pretty much was made by it and is not reflective of mythology or literature in any way, as damn near axiomatic. Just look at the OP, even if it's bait I've seen that same argument espoused unironically tons of times. Or the colossal double standard where martials and casters operate on entirely different levels of realism. It's like D&D takes its martials from gritty non-fantasy novels and its wizards from high-fantasy powerwank, and sees this as the only reasonable option.
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>>66727350
/thread
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>>66727994

>"I will pay you spell slots to fuck off"

This is my next character. A wizard that point blank tells people that he can and will bend reality, but would really appreciate not having to expend the effort.
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All classes should be able to throw cantrips
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>>66728670
>Single-class sorcerers are the full casters who get the short end of the stick, huh?

Sorcerers were the unnecessary bastard children of Wizards and should have never been a core class. They could easily be folded into the Warlock class who are already (thematically) better sorcerers. Eliminate the Sorcerer class, or make it an archetype of the Warlock. Even Sorcerer fans only care about the Dragon Blooded archetype anyways.
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>All this complaining about casters being overpowered.
>Not forcing all casters to also multiclass as martials & visa versa.
>Not shifting the lore so casters are more strictly punished, including things such as amputation & lobotomy.
How does it feel to suck at basic problem solving?
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>>66729143
Storm sorc from xanathars is pretty fun. It's basically the one subclass for it that actually makes playing sorc worth something.
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>>66729188
>try to implement these things
>casterfags squeal and shit themselves
>they leave and take their stinky daipers with
>party is now exclusively martials with the odd gish as needed.
kino
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>>66729143
Sounds like Sorcerers should be the main caster and Wizard deleted entirely.
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>>66729442
The whole spell system needs to be dramatically reworked from the ground up. Also we need martial, religious, technical, and scholarly traditions available to everyone, but mandatory for martials.
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>>66729188
It's pretty easy to solve the mechanic. It's pretty hard to solve the player mentality.
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>>66729497
A lobotomy would work for both.
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>>66727309

Why are Wizards anime reality warpers instead of the more typical one-trick ponies of myth usually limited to a few effects like divination, potion making, or if they're lucky turning people into animals? Why are martials mundane sword swingers instead of anime-tier demigods or Achilles figures?
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All of these threads are crypto-GURPSfag shitposting against D&D by people who aren't familiar with 5e. That said, 5e is rapidly becoming Caster Edition 2.0.
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>>66728585
Summon your own weapons and a frost atronach
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>>66729537
Because this is HIGH fantasy, if you want single specialized wizards play a low fantasy campaign.
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>>66729620
>Because this is HIGH fantasy
Then why are martials limited to the same constraints of that low fantasy campaign? Why does D&D do low fantasy martials and high fantasy casters?
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>>66728585

I went Destruction on my first playthrough. There's one simple trick: level enchantment early.

Work for it, work those first few hours blasting things then waiting for your mana to recharge. Suck souls, enchant daggers, repeat.

Then, as soon as you can, stuff a bunch of human souls in your boots and gloves and jockstrap, however many it takes for your "reduce cost of destruction spells" to add up to 100%.

Most other spells have durations; there's no point spamming them. But Destruction spells are balanced around the idea that you have to worry about mana. Get that shit taken care of and it's OFF TO THE RACES, MAH BOYYYY
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>>66729608
>5e is rapidly becoming Caster Edition 2.0.

Why?
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>>66729744

It's not, really. People love to complain.

A couple arguments they could make are that casters are more powerful than martials at high levels, and every book that comes out with official spells in it increases the power of casters without helping martials as much.

In practice, only a small minority of games ever go past level 13, and most DMs are leery about adding potentially powerful stuff from every new book that comes out.

It's fine.
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>>66729690
That is a good question, & my best answer isn't that great.
In short, they kind of do.
>Fighters can wield weapons with great ease, self heal with second wind, & depending on the class may have other benefits, including spells arrows (arcane archer) & battle tricks (Battle Master, I think).
They may not be good outside of combat, but can you self heal a lot of health once per short rest? Also, it's acceptable with the fighter because, you know, FIGHTER. They're job description is pretty cut & dry.
>Monks in 5e also have various abilities, from evasion to poison resistance thanks to the existence of Ki points. With some subclasses, such as the Sunsoul, it can literally turn them into anime tier characters.
>Barbarians can rage to get power. While this has some limited real-world backing, it's nowhere near the level found here. In reality, you just resist pain because of the adrenaline. In D&D, your rage makes you resist the actual damage. &, once more, magic subclasses, this time without being a caster (Totem warrior & Storm Herald(?) in particular.)
Also, while only mildly related, I heard before that Barbarians are basically anime characters. Not sure how accurate that statement is, though.
Yes, they're not the level of reality warper as the casters, but to say they are low fantasy is a bit misleading. Yes, half my explanation revolves around subclasses, but never the less these bits of higher fantasy still exist.
Was there anyone I forgot? Bards, Paladins, & Rangers are half casters, so I didn't include them. The only other one I could think of is rouge, & I honestly can't think of anything for them right now, so I guess you have me there.
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trrpg wizards are nearly always played by irl wizards or guys on their way to becoming them
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I've got it! After months of thinking, I figured out a way to limit the Wizard's power. You just need to homebrew an artifact of sorts, be it a want, piece of clothing, or potion that permanently or temporarily gives the Wizard barbarian rage whenever they roll a 20 on their spell saves.
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>>66729620

Lord of the Rings is high fantasy and had less than half a dozen wizards whose powers were extremely limited.
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>>66727309
The problem is that levels exist.
Characters of the same level should be AT the same level.
I have no problem with a setting where wizards rule the world and are completely uncontested, but a PC wizard and a PC fighter of the same level should be on an equal footing. That's what "level" means.
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>>66729744

A casterfag has supplanted Mearls, the dire Crawford.
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>>66727350
>Pic related, you disingenuous retard.
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>>66727573
>Because if two characters of same or similar level are not comparable in power/utility/etc it's shit game design and you may just throw the levels altogether.
Why? Why do you assume that your opinion on what levels are, is valid?

>>66727616
>but a martial at same "level" as you will be a super saiyan.
No it won't. Take your little gook boy anime back where it belongs: 7th grade. You should have grown out of that slant-eyed crap by then. God, anyone who watches anime after age 18 should be hanged from a lamppost. A high level D&D fighter should not be "super saiyan" and scream for 10d6 damage with his lmao inner chink power. Fuck yourself. He's a guy who is good at fighting and can also be good at athletics, crafting, etc. The problem is wizards being too powerful, not fighters being too weak.
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>>66731397
At least stick with the theme instead of going for something as lazy as a cuckold insult. I thought casters were supposed to be intelligent?

Like, Martials want to be strong. Well, actually, that isn’t so bad per se. Better than Wizards who want to be better in every aspect for no effort
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>>66728095
>Have you considered playing games that aren't absolute shit
Like what? FantasyCrap? 13th Age? They're the same shit. Savage Worlds? It has caster supremacy too, just slightly less of it. Genesys or some other gay-ass narrative system? That's not even a game.

The proper answer is, play B/X.
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>>66729911
It’s fine because players police themselves? That means any sport, video game, or any game is balanced and fair because players have the option of moderating. And if they do, is that even a game at that point?

You can have fun with D&D. I play D&D. All ways to play D&D are valid as long as everyone is having a good time. But let’s not pretend it’s not just badly designed
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>>66731426
>Like, Martials want to be strong.
And they can be. In every edition. So stop complaining. If you don't want to play a martial, don't play a martial. You clearly only want to play the class that lets you "do the thing" the most, to do the most things, omg I do the thing and I got a natural 20 do I do the thing *cute eyes* do I do the thing? My class can do all the things! Anything your class can do I can do better, my class does more things, don't pick that class it lets you do fewer things, you're just punishing yourself if you pick that class, let me pick the class that lets me do ALL the things, even though usually I'll only spam 2 or 3 of them in combat, but that's okay cause I can do the thing do the thing do the thing with a natural 20 just like in Critical Roll!

So fucking sick of this faggot fucking sóy mentality.
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>>66727350
Pick one you raging autistic.

1. Low fantasy where super natural powers and creatures are very rare. Mundane people with normal skills play center stage in the plot.(ex. Asoif rpg)

2. High fantasy without class power differences. Tons of mystical people and beings. All important characters have either magic blood, magic items or magic powers "Anime" maritals( ex. Exalted, classical myth)

3. High fantasy with class power differences. Some mundane characters exist but they are logically weaker than characters with mystical powers boosting their skills. (Ex. Dnd 3.5,5, pathfinder)

4. Comic book tier autism. High fantasy where mundane skilled people take center stage and go toe to toe with mystical powerhouses inspite of having no special abilities of their own, usually cause plot armor. Does not translate well to tabletop because tabletop needs a mechanical explanation why Bob the dirt farmers son can pick up a rusty sword and kill a 40 ft fire breathing dragon. (Ex. Batman, Hawkeye, Green arrow etc)
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>>66731423
Holy fuck go back to /pol/
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>>66727350
Have you tried not playing D&D?
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Nothing wrong with a wizard who can fly when archery isn't weak as fuck in the system, and when the fighter-types can be good at climbing.
Nothing wrong with a wizard who can turn invisible when the DM isn't a fucking retard and pretends invisibility means "cannot be seen at all" even though you would still leave footprints in sand and potentially make noise.
Save or die spells are fine as long as they extremely dangerous to the caster as well.
None of it would even be a problem if fighters rolled against a static save like in B/X.

Hey, wait a minute.....
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Casters will always dab on martial worms just as God intended
>my 900IQ big brain wizard power fantasy>>>>>>>>>>>trash>>>>>>>>>>>(power gap)>>>>>>>>>virgin Conan the barbarian jack off
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>>66729442
Wizards are fine, sorcerers are superfluous that aren't distinctive enough to justify being a whole class unto themselves and in a system rotten with caster bloat there's zero need for them

>>66729487
Wizards and magic can work just fine in DnD without a major revision of the system, but the designers need to grow a pair and slap some hard restrictions on Wizards. No more of this Master of All wizardry-you pick a school, you cast from that school, that's it. And there's too many spells which are objectively better than others on too few spell lists, all the schools need major rebalancing and a heavy culling of extraneous spells is necessary, especially those that make other classes obsolete.

Just look at level 1, with Catapult which requires a free object 1 to 5 feet within range that only goes 60ft and does 3d8 bludgeoning damage (if a creature fails a dex save) vs Chromatic Orb which only requires a one time investment of 50gp to do 3d8 damage of any element at 90ft and you roll to hit which is always better than the creature making a save for blasting spells. In 99/100 scenarios chromatic orb will always be the better choice. This would be fine if Wizard school specializations were actually significant character choices that sealed off all other types of spells, but they're not and that's garbage system design.
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>>66732610
Just play 2nd edition where school specialization locked you out of certain schools
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>>66727309
Ranged characters are pussies by definition. Therefore they should rightly be the bottoms of the chad melee gods
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>>66731423
>>66731481
Have sex
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>>66731438
>Genesys or some other gay-ass narrative system?
bud, if you said FATE or PbtA I would agree with you but Genesys has about as much solid rules as B/X does. Its narrative, but its structured narrative.
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>>66727309
Because wizard power levels are based off of god modding superhumans from fantasy novels but martial classes are treated as mundanes who sword good instead of god modding superhumans like the sort you'd find in an actual mythical legendary hero.

basically if a level twenty wizard can teleport to different planes of reality, lock people up in dimensional prisons and drop meteors on peasants for a laugh then high level martials should be at least as bullshit as their mythological contemporaries.
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>>66727579
Good luck getting a group together to play anything but d&d these days. I'd switch to something else if people actually played anything else
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>>66733101
Recently talked some guys into WHFR2e. It's a fun campaign, even though the plot moves at a glacial pace.
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>>66727666
Goku is an alien dipshit. Nothing "mundane" about being an extra terrestrial
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>>66727866
I must have no sense of humor...
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>>66727933
I-i have youre honor
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>>66729298
The sad thing is so many people stand by these blubbering, whaling, self-defecating abominations when they flip the table and storm out. And i honestly cant comprehend why.
Why would you destroy years of friendship because some rando shamu didnt like the way I DM?
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>>66731575
4 every time.
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>>66727579
I Desperately wanna play anything but DnD but no one wants me to run Savage Worlds and thers no one else running it. Hell my long time irl group switched to 5e from PF cause it was more simple baka
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>>66727309

You most likely started this argument in bad faith, but shit should be proportionate if you're gonna have a level system at all.

If a high-level wizard is a reality-warping demigod, an equivalent-level fighting man ought to have gained similar power, but focused into physical abilities and is therefore probably more of a Hercules-type character than "veteran mercenary" type.

If a very high-level fighting guy is just a regular dude with a sword a high level magician's powers should be roughly equivalent to dancing around a fire for three days to make someone you don't like fall down the stairs.
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>>66727933
>Give the best resource you could possibly make regarding caster v martial
>Receive this and actively ignore it, continue to complain about the problem

Pic is you.
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>>66736494
>abloobloo why wont people read my pdf :(((
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>>66731423
>Why? Why do you assume that your opinion on what levels are, is valid?
Ever since 3.x each class requires the same amount of XP to gain a level, meaning a Fighter and a Wizard should get to level 10 at the same time, more or less. Amount of XP per encounter is based on party level. Monsters have a level-based challenge rating. Magic items and loot are grouped by party level. Only time you get to modify your character is when you gain a new level.
Everything in D&D revolves around levels. So if that part breaks, everything breaks. And the caster/martial discrepancy breaks it indeed.
If it was like in older editions where a caster needs more XP to gain a level it would be one way to counter it, but still a clunky one.
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>>66731575
To be fair, you can very much have low magic settings where super natural stuff is rare, but just have all the player character protagonists be the exception.
And these protagonists would probably fight magical bad guys and explore magical places, all of which are rare in-setting, and the rest of the setting would be mundane dirt farmers, but the story isn't ABOUT the mundane dirt farmers.
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>>66729965
TFW IRL Wizard who has no interest in playing a spellcaster.
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>>66727309
Because whenever someone wants to put a limit on magic, people say, 'nuh uh, magic!'
Trying to tell a wizard-tard he can't do something is like trying to tell a kid not to fucking drink a lava lamp because he's convinced it's 'gamma slime' and that the Incredible Hulk story is how actual radiation works. Maybe more accurately, it's like trying to tell someone who dumped all his points in Hacking that no, he can't simply crack the CIA database on a whim for whatever the fuck he wants and expect to get away with it every single time.
Actual wizards (ie: people who actually do shit with technology) know better than to say that sort of shit.
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>>66727309
Fuck off Basedceror.
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>>66728095
>>DnD claims magic is rare
>>70% of the classes in the game use it
Ackshyully, 100% of the classes.
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>>66738596
Wait, I can say nigger, gook, or faggot, but S O Y is where this dumb fuck website draws the line? I’m going back to lurking, fuck this shit
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>>66728585
Forgotten Magic is my favorite mod for spells. It adds several "classes" of themed spells that synergize with each other and level up with use, unlocking new effects like adding damage over time or consuming the effects of another spell to get a boost. Also adds rings that modify specific spell effects.
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>>66738607
Nigger and faggot were filtered once, newfriend.
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>>66727309
Wizards being powerful is fine if they're rare, but they never are. Any player can make one, Past a certain level every encounter will have some magical spellcaster element to it, wizards go from being powerful and rare to powerful and yet mundane. If they're everywhere, you grow bored of them. Doesn't help that d&d has awfully boring spells and spellcasting mechanics.
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>>66727309
Because D&D is fucking shit. You know how when people watch classic fantasy movies, books, kung-fu movies, comics, and other media they get really stoked as the see cool martial action with trappings of magic and monsters supplementing it? Like GOT? Then, when they finally get around to playing a game with their friends that they were told emulated that, but it does anything but that and instead recreates some Saturday Morning fucking cartoon for literal ten year olds it pisses them off. D&D magic is fucking shit. There's no other way to describe it. So, when you have a Class that is the King of that Shit on top of the already extreme disappointment it stands to reason why they would despise that thing.
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>>66729911
The caster supremacy is present at all levels. It isn't hard to notice a barbarian's skillset is comprised entirely of hitting things, breaking down doors, and intimidation checks, while wizards get many more tools and options.
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>>66739351
>Le 2004 is still relevant.
4chan's growing pains were no less than its later descents into extreme fagdom like before Moot's departure.
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>>66731423
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>>66727887
>using destruction in TES
have you tried just stabbing a bitch while he's furious at a completely invisible assassin with an axe he pulled out of hell?
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>>66727994
>The fact of the matter is, magic is not good game design.
What's not good game design is insisting that martial and magic using are perfectly equal classes of people. It's like trying to pretend a lvl 1 demi-god and lvl 1 peasant are perfectly equal and will progress in an equal manner, just with different variations on how they damage. Something has got to give.

You can't narratively square real world pointed hunks of metal swinging with warping reality. Trying to do so has only created generations of gamers that have tried to internalize with cognitive dissonance while getting very angry and insecure that their pointed metal swinger doesn't FEEL as on the level as the arch-mage master of the universe. A big problem in a game ultimately about wish fulfillment and power fantasies.

D&D did it back in the day for practical reasons and for fun. I don't know why people pretend to be stupid about it now.
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>>66736494
The best response to the caster supremacy debate is shilling your shit pdf that doesn't even offer mechanical implementations of many of its rules?
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...Just make mages a jack of all trades master of none, and give the non-mage classes a specialization that they can do better than mages?
It really boils down to mages being better at killing than the classes specificly about killing. So you make the mages worse at killing, somewhat better at most other things and maybe enough malusi that using them as anything other than last resort is either impractical or risky.
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>>66742151
It's not about specific implementation, nor is it about specific games or 1 to 1 numerical balance. I'm not interested in that shit. I'm interested in sparking your mind and making you actually use two brain cells in your head so you can understand that there are a myriad of solutions to fix caster and martial imbalance; more of which are in that pdf then you'll get from browsing these pointless, repetitive threads.
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>>66727350
>clerics exist
>druids exist
Just pick a spellcaster lad, there’s many of them.
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>>66742283
>It's not about specific implementation, nor is it about specific games or 1 to 1 numerical balance. I'm not interested in that shit. I'm interested in sparking your mind and making you actually use two brain cells in your head so you can understand that there are a myriad of solutions to fix caster and martial imbalance; more of which are in that pdf then you'll get from browsing these pointless, repetitive threads.
They literally don't fix anything, they just make the game all about the caster circumventing your society's rules, or trying to circumvent your society's rules.

This is like the Enemy disadvantage of Shadowrun. A player can take a 10 point enemy and get karma for it, AND he now has a rival who will warp the plot so that the game is going to put him into the spotlight. It's still a win win for casters, because they get to do their stuff more often.

tl;dr it's still shit.
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>>66740015
>You can't narratively square real world pointed hunks of metal swinging with warping reality. Trying to do so has only created generations of gamers that have tried to internalize with cognitive dissonance while getting very angry and insecure that their pointed metal swinger doesn't FEEL as on the level as the arch-mage master of the universe.
why the fuck do you think that "super duper reality warper 9000" is the only way magic can exist, you autist? might as well ask why a crazy old woman who mixes herbs for potions and huffs smoke to talk to the dead should be able to 1v1 a legendary hero who drinks rivers and makes mountains off a dragons' spine
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casters win
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>>66727309
No one has a problem with the wizard solving wizard problems. We have a problem with the wizard solving every problem ever, better and faster than anyone else, with their spell versatility being completely unchecked.

Granted, this is EXCLUSIVELY a D&D problem.
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>>66728274
It did work that way at first though. Computers were around for a while before they became common, and longer still before they were in every household.



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