[a / b / c / d / e / f / g / gif / h / hr / k / m / o / p / r / s / t / u / v / vg / vr / w / wg] [i / ic] [r9k / s4s / vip / qa] [cm / hm / lgbt / y] [3 / aco / adv / an / asp / bant / biz / cgl / ck / co / diy / fa / fit / gd / hc / his / int / jp / lit / mlp / mu / n / news / out / po / pol / qst / sci / soc / sp / tg / toy / trv / tv / vp / wsg / wsr / x] [Settings] [Search] [Home]
Board
Settings Home
/tg/ - Traditional Games


Thread archived.
You cannot reply anymore.



Death, skeletons, raised dead, spirits, summoning ghosts - these are all neutral.

Necromancers can be good and pretty useful, if you think about it:
>raises your dead pets so they can be with you forever
>summons your dead family member so you can talk with them once more
>seeking the wisdom of long-dead scholars
>defend a city with an army of skeletons
>interrogate dead criminals
>using mindless ghouls of animals (like horses and bulls) for work

Let's face it: necromancers are neutral, and can even be good.
>>
I'll say that fucking with the natural order of things is chaotic, so the question shouldn't be one of purely good/evil, but also about placing necros on the chaotic side of law/chaos.
>>
>>66724213
Now, think about the consequences of those actions.
>>
>>66724239
>I'll say that fucking with the natural order of things is chaotic

So all kinds of mages and sorcerers must be chaotic?
>>
>>66724254
In older editions of D&D magic-users used to be exclusively chaotic.
>>
Depends on the setting. In default D&D land ie Forgotten Realms, animating undead is objectively evil and can never be good no matter how much you want it to be and try to rationalize it.
>>
>>66724254
Make that all PCs in general
>>
>>66724292
The absolute state of D&D
>>
>>66724239
Chaos is change. Therefore, creating unending beings that change very little over eons would naturally favor order, unless they are used to cause chaos and strife.
>>
>>66724320
I'd argue that death is the most unchanging, orderly state of being, and undeath is changing that.
>>
>tfw no qt Hot Topic necromancer gf.
>>
File: 48a.jpg (20 KB, 398x387)
20 KB
20 KB JPG
>>66724320
>>66724334
Then the fighter drinking beer is chaotic, because he caused change in the keg.
>>
>>66724213
Death is release. Not just from good, but also from all that is evil. Denying someone's final rest is an incredibly selfish thing to do.
Simply animating physical remains like golems is not so bad though.
>>
>>66724359
>Denying someone's final rest is an incredibly selfish thing to do.

Mindless skeletons or zombies don't have consciousness, though.
>>
>>66724349
Goddamn fighters.

>>66724334
>I'd argue that death is the most unchanging, orderly state of being, and undeath is changing that.
In every fantasy setting I've ever read death is not unchanging, but rather a different state of being that can change further, such as souls evolving into other beings or being used to fuel something larger than themselves.
>>
File: 1551893649757.png (80 KB, 278x322)
80 KB
80 KB PNG
>>66724246
>>
>>66724399
That's what I said? If your necromancy involves bringing back the soul of death to animate their remains or something like that, that's a very rude thing to do. But...
>Simply animating physical remains like golems is not so bad though.
Mindless skeletons and zombies are simply spooky golems, not really necromancy imo.
>>
>>66724213
>raises your dead pets so they can be with you forever
rips their soul from the pet afterlife, or at the very least denies them their afterlife. So that they can be in a disabled husk of a former body.

>summons your dead family member so you can talk with them once more
Same thing. Unless its some how a flawless Resurrection. If you're summoning their ghost then you're forcing them to talk to you, rather than asking or letting them do so of their own volition.

>seeking the wisdom of long-dead scholars
We call them wizards and they read books.

>defend a city with an army of skeletons
An army of skeletons powered by either;
>The concept of negative energy, a force antithetical to good and life as we know it.
>Unwilling souls or souls unable to move on.
Also yeah that city is probably excommunicated from trade with most other kingdoms due to not respecting the dead.

>interrogate dead criminals
I'll give you that, but its about as morally positive as torture.

>using mindless ghouls of animals (like horses and bulls) for work
Insane animal cruelty.


If you defang all of necromancy to being just animated corpses with no negative downside what so ever and they're all powered by the wanks of those who want a big tittied wide hipped goth gf and not living beings you still run into the problem of defiling the dead.

From a certain standpoint necromancers probably harm more people than demonologists. At least they're probably only going to fuck themselves over.
>>
>DM can I play the class that's taboo and is hates but I don't want to deal with any of that just give me all the upsides

Biding undead, being evil, all that stuff is the biggest downside of necromancy and it's also the most interesting part of it. Fuck off with the "muh good necromancer" this is the best
>>
negative energy has a will. necromancy seems useful and neutral because negative energy wants you to call more of it into the world

dont believe it. you cannot control death, you cannot bind the undead to your service. they want to make you complacent
>>
>>66725614
that thing you called up is not your dead friend, its an infinite malignant intelligence wearing his face. by trying to call him up you've condemned your friend's soul to an unimaginable fate
>>
Necromancers are all whiny little faggots. Every last one of them.
>>
>>66724292
In 2ed Paladins and Clerics of Helm could not only command undead but could even create them.
>>
>>66724349
Absolutely based
>>
File: 1560146209583.jpg (126 KB, 864x720)
126 KB
126 KB JPG
>>66724868
>>
>>66724213
>A shadow of what it used to be. No life, no emotion, just a fucking undead critter that can't grasp what the fuck is happening anymore.
>Not even fucking death will give your loved ones a break from your fucking antics. No free will, as they are bound to your will, so they can't even throw a fit or bite you.
>They probably told everything they had to say. You should be thinking about new ideas instead of ancient outdated ones anyway.
>Cheap fucking soldiers it is great, until people get triggered by watching their dead mothers wandering around eating people to death.
>Horrifying but effective. But then again, not killing them in the first place would be better, so the enchanter will probably be a better option.
>Cheap labor, but fucking ghouls needs to eat flesh of the living. Bad fucking option. Skeletons would be better as they don't even smell.
>>
>>66724213
The amount of people who can't understand that necros aren't summoning souls or spirits, but using negative (death) energy is god damn high.
>>
>>66724213
Being brought back as an undead is suffering for the soul, therefore necromancy is evil.
>>
>>66726214
Counter argument: the Deathless in Eberron are undead elves powered by Positive Energy generated by the faith of their people. They are at the same time religion, faith, creatures, and deities.
>>
>>66726292
Elves. Every. Fucking. Time. Elves.
>>
>>66724213
>Death, skeletons, raised dead, spirits, summoning ghosts

Why do people keep insisting that only reanimation magic is necromancy and get all edgy when told that undead animation in particular is not morally kosher?

No one is bothered by your speak with dead, slapping a bitch with enervation or cursing them who needs it. However when you bring back Granny in a mockery of life instead of having her traipse around Nirvana with Gramps back in fighting (and fucking) form, because your clingy ass can't be bothered learning to cook, that's on YOU.

Now, I don't know your setting, but in most the gods of death try to give those in their charge some well-deserved rest and using negative energy to bypass this tends to mess shit up literally and metaphysically. Animate some objects or something.
>>
>>66724320
a maximally chaotic system has zero potential for change, order is required for anything to happen
>>
>>66724349
every particle in the universe is chaotic; entropy is always increasing.
>>
>>66725614
negative energy doesn't have a will
>>
>>66726292
your setting is wrong and shit
>>
>>66726711
Yeah its just intrinsically kills things by being. Surely pumping more of this into the universe to make cheap ass temporary golems is surely a morally upstanding act.
>>
>>66724213
False, desecrating the dead is a fundamentally unholy act.
>>
How many fucking time are you snowflake faggots going to make this thread? Fucking with the dead is ALWAYS an evil act.
>B-but my unique setting has contracts with people who sell their body after they die for manual labor so it's actually good!

No. Shut up you dumb bitches it's still fucking evil because now you have rotting corpses all over the place, you still probably have family members that aren't okay with watching their uncle or father or whatevers corpse walking around, you're still tethering magic to a dead fucking body. Fuck you.
>>
>>66726780
morals are for fags
>>
No school of magic is more based than illusionism
>>
File: 1758604938756.jpg (123 KB, 1058x755)
123 KB
123 KB JPG
>>66726743
>>
>>66726214
The amount of people who can't understand that the way a setting they like deals with a basic fantasy concept is not the definitive way is too damn high.
>>
>>66724213
Not in D and d they aren't. Definitely evil, spelled out in the book. Do you know how to read?
>>
>>66726838
Why? You can't just make a statement like that without backing it up.
(Just to be clear, I'm not saying you're wrong just want to hear your reasoning.)
>>
>>66727057
Enchanters can rape you without you realizing it was rape. Nothing is more based than that.
>>
File: 1434130067880.png (1.36 MB, 1203x869)
1.36 MB
1.36 MB PNG
>>66724213
Anons like this faggot are why I always portray necromancers as vile autists, simultaneously vicious and cowardly, who learned necromancy so they could get revenge on the world for not giving them everything they think they're entitled to just for being them.
>>
>>66727259
You must be fun at parties.
>>
>>66724213
>Necromancers can be good and pretty useful, if you think about it:

Can they give you a brain that determines that having something that died come back to you is quite horrifying for everyone involved?

Phenomenal Russia SF short story about Lazarus's life after that Nazarene hippy carpenter raised him from the dead.
Family don't want him. Wife doesn't want him. Village doesn't want him. He was dead. They buried him. They mourned him. Now... he's back.
>>
>>66724311
>The absolute state of D&D

Yup.
>Stupid and stupider
>>
File: hqdefault.jpg (16 KB, 480x360)
16 KB
16 KB JPG
>>66728135
>Phenomenal Russia SF short story about Lazarus's life after that Nazarene hippy carpenter raised him from the dead.
>Family don't want him. Wife doesn't want him. Village doesn't want him. He was dead. They buried him. They mourned him. Now... he's back.

We live in a society...
>>
>>66727089
Because the vast majority of faiths and moral systems state fucking around with the dead is bad for you.

Scientifically in that time period you'd also be carrying loads of disease and spreading an effectively invisible death miasma.

>Necromancers can be good and pretty useful, if you think about it:
useful yes, that's the appeal. Good in the same way someone who uses child labor camps to produce goods is good.
>>
>>66724213
Necromancy is always evil.
Always.
>>
>>66724213
Just let me rest in peace.
>>
>>66728425
tomb kangs
>>
>>66728862
Creating the Kangs was an evil act
>>
>>66728927
most nations are founded with barbaric acts, it is not the circumstance of your birth that defines you
>>
>>66725641
If its not him, how could he be condemned?

>>66724868
>rips their soul from the pet afterlife
Animals don't have souls Anon.

>If you're summoning their ghost then you're forcing them to talk to you, rather than asking or letting them do so of their own volition.
So then any form of summoning is an inherently evil act. Good to know that Summoners and Druids are evil.

>We call them wizards and they read books.
It would be nice to be able to whistle up the ghosts of the Founding Fathers and asked them what exactly they meant when they cobbled together the second amendment.

>The concept of negative energy, a force antithetical to good and life as we know it.
Skeletons are animated objects, not actual undead.
>Unwilling souls or souls unable to move on.
No souls involved in animating objects.

>Also yeah that city is probably excommunicated from trade with most other kingdoms due to not respecting the dead.
The dead are dead. Respect is shown to their memory, not the bundle of bones that has gone the way of all flesh.

>interrogate dead criminals
>I'll give you that, but its about as morally positive as torture.
Good to know that basic court proceedings are classified as torture.

>Insane animal cruelty.
How can one be cruel to an animate object? Might as well complain about the feelings of a table.

>If you defang all of necromancy to being just animated corpses with no negative downside
You obviously know very little about the necromancer arts. There is a massive difference between an animated corpse and a fucking wight.

>From a certain standpoint necromancers probably harm more people than demonologists. At least they're probably only going to fuck themselves over.
...he said sacrificing his third baby this month to Jujubalix the Devourer as payment for consuming his enemies.
>>
>>66724213
It's not good either. It depends on how and why it's employed. A Cleric raising a Paladin that consented to defending his people even in death? Possibly good. A detective or attorney summoning a witness from the afterlife in the pursuit of justice? Possibly righteous. A witch tethering the restless ghost of a child to her to keep her soul safe from demons and using the information from the girl to track down and punish the man that raped and murdered her to help her move on? Can also be good.
>>
>>66729006
>muh objects
You fuckers are just like those degenerates who insist on fetuses not being people
>>
>>66724213
Animating dead is messing with God's work. Which means it's extremely heretical.
>>
>>66729065
A cow fetus isn't a person, anon. What are you, a Hindu?
>>
>>66729138
quit being deliberately obtuse you sperg
>>
>>66729065
Not at all. A fetus IS life. A dead husk is merely an object. It has no life of its own, no potential for life; the soul that once resided there has moved on to its eternal reward. It has no use for the husk, no one does, except me and the farmer who's soil is made fertile by the corruption of the husk.

The REALLY secret of necromancy, Anon, is that life feeds on life. Every living thing contains a seed of negative energy that needs must be satiated through the death of something else. There's nothing unnatural in what I do, it's merely a matter of scale is all.
>>
>>66729174
Be specific about what you're talking about so you can be properly engaged in good faith without the other party having to make assumptions about your statements, you goofy little otter.
>>
>>66728506
>Just let me rest in peace.

There's no rest for the wicked.
>>
>>66724213
In the extremely vast majority of settings where necromancy exist it has very bad consequences for everyone involved. This makes them bad.

Now, can you make a setting where necromancy doesn't have any consequence of the sort this removing a big part of what makes necromancy necromancy? Yes, but you can also make a setting were rape is a good thing so what's the point?

There is also the fact that if you go that path of "there is absolutely no negative consequence in animating dead bodies it's just free labor" then why the fuck aren't you making the same magic work on wood or stone and making golems?
>>
>>66729178
I can tell that you never lost anyone truly close to you , because if you did you would know how perverse the mere idea of raising your loved ones remains would be.

>It has no use for the husk, no one does, except me and the farmer who's soil is made fertile by the corruption of the husk.
Who gets to decide that? You? Someone who has clearly shown that he has no regard for the dead because he is unable to even bond with the living?
>>
>>66729289
>Your loved ones coming back is perverse
Sounds like someone needs Jesus in their life
>>
>>66729346
Nice try, but we all know necromancy is not anywhere near the same as divine resurrection.
>>
Of all creatures in our own world, only humans imbue corpses with mystical qualities belonging solely to the living, out of fear and denial. A practitioner of necromancy should be a sociopathic or misanthropic individual, or not even human to begin with.
>>
>>66729346
Yeah, I'm sure the Church will look gladly on someone macking a mockery of the Resurrection and using the result to work the fields.
>>
>>66729368
That depends on the setting and gods in question. If I ask the ghost of a Saint to appear (or if a Saint uses his authority to summon the ghost of a pagan, which has happened before), is that evil? If the Pope compels the remains of good Christian men to rise and defend Europe from Muslims, is that evil? It's still animating the remains of the dead and compelling souls to appear against their will in testimony, but it is the will of the Lord at that point and good luck convincing me that God is evil.
>>
>>66728135
You can't just post that and not tell us the title. Most of us haven't heard of it.
>>
>>66729454
The difference is in the form and how it is portrayed, it always is. Necromancy typically reanimates shambling, rotting mockeries of life that turn the stomach, inspire fear and revulsion, etc. Divine resurrection is always portrayed as perfect, the person is no longer dead, and they are the same as they were before they died, as though nothing bad happened to them.
>>
>>66729289
Oh, I didn't realize that you could pick your parents' naked skeletons out of a lineup. My mistake.

Wait...how do you know what your parents look like without any flesh? Are you some kinda serial killer or something?
>>
File: xu fu.png (74 KB, 350x337)
74 KB
74 KB PNG
What if instead of using necromantic magicks, you take the elixir you had developed to give yourself immortality and stick a corpse in a tank of it? Would that be kosher?
>>
>>66724213
>raises your dead pets so they can be with you forever
>summons your dead family member so you can talk with them once more

Do us a favor and google the term "uncanny valley" real quick
>>
>>66729629
Irrelevant. It has to do with the principle of it, unless you want to try and say that everyone is an insane sociopath like yourself who is apparently suddenly fine with raising the bodies of people just because they are not your family.
>>
>>66724246
>OP of le good necromancer threads
>caring about consequences

Good one, anon. Bigg laff.
>>
Fuck morally grey morality. Good and evil should be objective.
Fuck pretending that a monster is the same as a Greek or Croatian, it's not an ethnic group it's an invasive species with tool use and social organization.
Fuck people who play non-human-like monstrous shit and then act surprised when human commoners freak out and try to kill them when they walk into town.
Fuck any and all "necromancy can be good" fags. It's evil to any culture with taboos about handling and interacting with the dead, in other words, most of them hat aren't subhuman.
>>
>>66724213
It depends entirely on the setting. Someone who animates bones that do their bidding and collapse when the magic runs out, that's neutral at worst, if disrespectful to the dead.

Most D&D settings though, animate dead is you raising a corpse to life with negative energy, and the magic doesn't "run out". Any necromancer worth his salt can control a sizable quantity of undead, but when he loses control of them they don't collapse, they get loose and start murdering any living thing they come across. Being a responsible necromancer is a tricky thing to do.

Fucking with souls against someone's will however is almost always as evil as it gets. If your animate dead involves yanking a soul from the afterlife and using it to pilot a rotted corpse, you've crossed some serious lines.

>>66727083
Ghosts in D&D are neutral.
>>
>>66729542
Not always the case with the divine. Yes, hollywood and vidya meme necromancy is always about bringing back flesh craving zombies, but Abrahamic faiths have a long history of working with ghosts, with dead men given a window of time to make things right or protect the ones they love before returning to the grave, and more. And it's not always sunshine and happiness, the further back you go the more deathly the ghost or reanimated remains are, to better frighten the wicked. No necromantic miracle is a true resurrection, as the Lord giving life again is different then the Lord compelling the dead to defend or inform the living.

What you should be afraid of is witchcraft enslaving the souls of the dead and disturbing their rest. Really disappointing that modern pop culture has infested the Christian perception of death and life so much.
>>
>>66724246
All of those things are consequences. Positive ones of the use of necromancy.
>>
>>66724213
If doing those acts cause no harm to the mortal soul of the necromantic material, then yeah it's probably neutral. But I'm not sure that is commonly assumed in a lot of settings.
>>
>>66726292
>Eberron
why not just talk about how much you like scub?
>>
>>66729874
Shut your damn whore's mouth. Skub fucking rules, you plebian.

Also Eberron is fun
>>
>>66728135
That sounds like the sort of retarded shit you get from a Russian SF writer.
>He was dead for four days
>Ugh, he's old news, I've already moved on
>>
>>66729788
Because necromancy originally referred to calling forth ghosts for their sage advice, not raising monstrous armies.
>>
>>66729721
You're the one who's got an unhealthy obsession with dead bodies Anon. I'm the one who understands that the person is the soul, not the flesh. Let go of your fetishism, your psyche will thank you.
>>
>>66724213
>raises your dead pets so they can be with you forever
A false simulacrum and a mockery of the bond you shared with your companion. It’s just the corpse of your pet being defiled and animated for your own selfish and weak need to avoid the pain brought by death
>summons your dead family member so you can talk with them once more
See above
>seeking the wisdom of long-dead scholars
You can get a cleric to commune with a god if you really have such a dire need for information. You don’t need to be annoying and bother someone during their rest with your needy questions
>defend a city with an army of skeletons
Why not just defend an army with golems and avoid the questionable morality and defilement of innocents?
>interrogate dead criminals
Worse than 1984. If death doesn’t give you respite from an oppressive state, what does? Nothing.
>using mindless ghouls of animals (like horses and bulls) for work
Until they rot. Pretty soon we’ll be slaughtering animals just to put them to work if you come up with some contrived reason why they won’t just rot

Necromancers are parasites. Slowly worming their way into your psyche by pretending to be logical while rotting your society from within
>>
>>66724213
What's wrong with being evil? Is there some rule that evil people can't save the world?
>>
>>66729932
And occasionally asking the dead for protection or to punish the wicked, yes.
>>
If OP gets his way, society will be the top 1% Liches and Vampires slaughtering their bottom 99% subjects, domesticated animals and wildlife because they’re “more useful” dead. Things will be born just to die in this society.
>>
>>66730060
The point Is that OP is desperately trying to justify that situation as being good.
>>
>>66730060
All things die Anon. How do you not know this?
>>
>>66729982
They’d probably be saving it from another evil person
>>
>>66729258
>being this pedantic
You know what he meant, Anon
>>
>>66730113
All things die, but their purpose is not to die
>>
>>66724213
I'm working on a character like this right now.

PC's background is that he was part of a cult/compound/village dedicated to worshipping Shar.
The Church of Shar set up the cult as a way to test how society would function in a world where even normies worship Shar, not just the generic chaotic evil fuckwads in the church.
People would be born into this cult/compound and be raised in a mini society where raising the dead is normalized, something they do for brute labor tasks.
The people in the cult are basically normal people who are just part of the cult, only the leadership is in on the whole thing being an experiment.

I'm interested in hearing other people's input on this kind of backstory. PC is designed as lawful neutral right now, but I'm interested in what people think what could be added in terms of world building for the cult.
>>
>>66730166
It's best for a discussion to be clear and specific, plus it's the easier thing to do, in the long run. Have some discipline.
>>
>>66730215
You can take your weasel-words and shove it, necromancerfag.
>>
>>66730156
Evil vs Evil is very common, much more so than Good vs Good.
>>
>>66730242
enjoy your eternal chastity, pope pleaser
>>
>>66729982
It's out of character. Evil is usually self-interested and doesn't care enough to save anything other than themselves or what is immediately important to them.
>>
>>66729975
>false simulacrum
What makes it false?
>You can get a cleric to commune with a god if you really have such a dire need for information
Depends on the setting
>Worse than 1984
Why? If there are rules about questioning living people, why wouldn't there be rules about questioning the dead.
Imagine how many murders would be solved if you could call the victim in as a star witness.
>>
>>66730242
>the Catholic arguing that command of the dead is the firmly in the realm of God and his faithful servants and not the place of witches and sorcerers is a "necromancerfag"
Sorry you feel that way, anon.
>>
>>66730187
It's literally the only thing all life has in common.
>>
>>66730360
>that typo
Woops, sorry about that. The woes of phone posting. That extra "the" before "firmly" shouldn't be there. Hope you see this and it clears up any confusion.
>>
>>66729006
>Animals don't have souls Anon.

Stopped reading there. My doggo does too have a soul and it's nicer than yours.
>>
>>66727259
>Necromancers are magical school shooters.
Moderate kek.
>>
>>66727259
Based and jockpilled
>>
>>66724276
no they didn't you liar, I have 2e phb and rulecyclopedia on my desk and there is no such thing.
>>
>>66730645
>>66730360
>falseflagging this hard
kill yourself, cryptoathiest.
>>
Why is it only necromancers that make these kinds of threads?

You don’t see the rogues making threats turning their brains inside out to justify stealing being somehow good for society or saying how stabbing someone in the back is actually honorable.
>>
>>66731057
what is robinhood

the difference is robinhood has plenty of movies and shit to justify the archtype. you don't have anything like that for necros
>>
>>66731057
Stabbing a dictator in the back is extremely honorable.
>>
File: RadiationIntensifies.jpg (224 KB, 1200x957)
224 KB
224 KB JPG
If I ran a game in which necromancy existed I'd not make it a binary act in the sense that you can only perform necromancy if you're an evil person, or that performing it automatically changes you into one, I'd have it cause severe damage to the world around the necromancer and possibly to the necromancer themselves. The worlds of the living and the dead are incompatible with one-another and to bring them together causes spots of wrongness which get more and more prominent the more powerful a working you perform. Raise a bunch of zambos in a field and that land won't bare any wholesome plants for decades to come, food grown there will make people ill and the ground will go fallow, and you'll probably bleed from every orifice as well. Necromancy might have some useful applications but the vast majority of it will be prohibited anywhere that people are sane, most people will run necromancers out of town or have the law or mercenaries kill them because every necromancer is a walking demon core accident waiting to happen. As a result most of the people who are necromancers are either crazy, evil, or work under extremely tightly controlled conditions far away from valuable land and innocent people.
>>
>>66724213
I came to this thread for big-tittied necromancer goth gfs and I'm very disappointed
>>
>>66730322
>what makes it false
It’s not your pet. Depending on the setting it can just be the corpse animated by magic or the corpse inhabited by a demon or a corpse being worked as a puppet by the necromancer.

Or it’s the worst option. Something even more horrific and appalling like ripping your pets soul away from peace and forcing it to inhabit a rotting body. You’re a legit sociopath and narcissist if you’re forcing something you supposedly love to inhabit a dead body just because you can’t let it go and find peace.

>depends on the setting
In my setting necromancers are evil

>Why? If there are rules about questioning living people, why wouldn't there be rules about questioning the dead.
You’re violating something so primal, so basic as a criminal’s right to their own thoughts and the privacy of their own thoughts. Not to mention the simple right to just be dead and be at peace. What’s to stop this government from making you actually serve your 1,000 years jail sentence? God forbid this government is evil and tortured their political rivals for literally eternity because they don’t allow you to die. We’re already entering “opt-out” organ donations IRL. I get the feeling your a fan of opt-out corpse resurrection.

A government wielding necromancy is an utter nightmare scenario and worse than 1984 by several degrees

>Imagine how many murders would be solved if you could call the victim in as a star witness.
Imagine how much hunger we can solve if we just eat people. Imagine all the racism we can solve if we just take away free speech. Imagine all the crime we could prevent if we take away free will. Imagine all the murders we could solve if we take away the ability to just be dead
>>
>>66731123
Well I guess in that very specific, Cherry-picked scenario you win. Congrats Anon.

>>66731085
Hood is a Ranger
>>
>>66730298
>self-interest
>save the world because you don't want to die
>save the world because you want to conquer it yourself
>save the world because the opposing villain is your idealogical opponent
>save the world because even bad people have family they want to protect
Are you really so naive?
>>
>>66724213
We have this thread every other day, and it all boils down to yet another fucking meme: depends on the setting.

In mine, dominating the souls of the dead and forcing them into a rotting body is evil, regardless of what you use them for. Even trying to commune with dead spirits is disturbing their rest and considered immoral. Necromancy and never be good because it always requires the suffering of others.
>>
>>66724320
Chaos =/= Change. A common mistake for beginners.
>>
>>66730750
If you can demonstrate that your dog has moral agency, then I will agree that your dog has a soul. Think about this real hard Anon, because one of the drawbacks to having a soul is that one can be a bad doggo, thus implying that not all doggos go to heaven.

No one wants that.
>>
>>66724213
In my setting, necromancers come in two flavours :
>Run-of-the-mill evil necromage
>Lawful Neutral servants of the God of the Dead who protects the balance between life and death and hunt down the first category.

In my setting, necromancy, and dark magic in general, is casted using Chton, a conceptual miasmic darkness that is born from negative thoughts interacting with the flows of Mana, causing it to go from "liquid" to "solid", and it's the diametrical opposite to the Breath, which is "gaseous" Mana and is the magic of the gods. Due to its nature, use of Chton in its raw state has a natural corrupting effect on minds of dark mages as it call upon the user's deepest and most selfish impulses, but also because most dark arts outright requires you to commit atrocities to enhance your attunement with Chton in order to be able to cast in the first place, so if you're not evil to begin with, it makes you evil eventually, which is why dark magic is so feared and hated.

Necromancy is the notable exeption tho. Instead of handling Chton directly, it uses the spirit realm as a medium to filter and regulate it, making it a lot safer ; it is thus often called "the noblest of dark arts". It was invented by the aformentioned Lawful Neutral God of the Dead. He was kinda forced to do so because of the nature of his line of work (you know, being the god-king of the Underworld), which was easy for him as the plethora of souls in the City of the Dead, just by being aware of themselves being dead, generate Cthonic Mana constantly. Again, the guy's Lawful Neutral and is in fact kinda chill, he is purely concerned about maintaining the balance of the world, so despite the stigma, he employs a small number of mortal necromancers (which he considers to be all his students) alongside the priests of his cult to enact his will in the realm of the living.

He does draw the line at lichdom tho, which he considers an offense to the natural order and an insult to life itself.
>>
>>66724213
>raises your pet
Doesnt ressurect it, just straight skeleton kitty/poochy

And you expect me to not kill the madman on sight? Rascals was resting, ahw doesnt want to lumber around as a bony freak
>>
>>66724311
>Creating zombies and skeletons and mindless undead actually does. It doesn't use the WHOLE soul. It cuts off a tiny piece and uses it as the seed to corrupt via necromancy to animate the dead body. This might be a fragment of soul left behind after the soul itself left ages ago, or it might be a bit "snipped" off more recently. That's why, in Pathfinder, even mindless undead are evil.
>
>Your game can of course differ, but in the rules and in Golarion, "soul-snipping" is the the assumption.
>-James Jacobs, Creative Director of Pathfinder at Paizo
>>
>>66724292
Why is that?
>>
>>66724213
>The way I imagine necromancy to work is neutral, so it must be neutral for everyone else too!
In my setting all women want to suck my dick, so if I'm ever in a game where they don't, my GM is wrong and a fucking retard to boot. He doesn't understand how it works.
>>
File: lightguy.png (703 KB, 604x1208)
703 KB
703 KB PNG
RRRREEEEEEEE!!!!

WHAT PART OF BREAKING THE NATURAL CYCLE DO YOU IDIOTS NOT UNDERSTAND!!

BRINGING PEOPLE BACK FROM THE DEAD IS BAAAAAAAAD!
>>
>>66731252
Not him, but Hood is clearly a rogue. Thievery is roguish.
>>
Bringing back the dead is only evil if the people you turn undead did not consent to it. It would be fine if, for example, there was a culture that was totally okay with being brought back because its part of their religion or culture or whatever
>>
>>66736675
But he's a ROBBER, not a THIEF. The difference being tgat a robber confronts his victim (specifically the armed agents of the government) with open or implied violence. Add to that the archery thing, the superior melee combat ability and the whole "lives and operates in the fucking forest" thing and he's pretty clearly a CG ranger living in a LN monarchy run by primarily NE/LE nobles.
>>
>>66738387
That may be a distinction worth making, however that doesn't mean that he isn't a rogue. A rogue can rob as well as thieve. Part of the problem here is that ranger is a mix of rogue and druid. Yet, Robin Hood does not use magic, which is a classic trait of rangers. If you think the main point is that he hides away in the forest, I don't think that really has much to do with class. A hiding rogue, a hermit wizard, and a shaman-esque cleric could all do that without being any more ranger-like. I agree, though, that he is CG.
>>
>>66724399
They kind of do, calling them mindless is a bit of a misnomer. They don't have higher brain functions, sure, but they do have instincts, and hunger, and a constant desire to break free and inflict pain on others. Even if the original soul isn't involved, you've created an AI whose permanent state of being is suffering.
>>
>>66731252
>>66736675
>>66738387
>>66738590

robin hood is a filth multiclassing shit
>>
>>66724292
Isn't forgotten realms the one with the cheesy good elf-liches?
>>
>>66726711
that's the entire reason mindless undead are always evil though
>>
>>66727094
Illusionists can rape you without raping you
>>
>>66727074
WELL THEN WHY ARE YOU HAVING AN OBJECTIVE ARGUMENT AS TO WHETHER OR NOT IT'S EVIL YOU DUMB FUCK
>>
>>66724213
>Death, skeletons, raised dead, spirits, summoning ghosts - these are all neutral.

I don't know, a lot of what you mentioned burns at the touch of silver or sunlight or literally anything holy.

Neutral things tend to not self combust in the face of good.
>>
>>66726711
No, it doesn't possess free will, it just kills things and makes them into violent and often mindless undead creatures.
>>
>>66728425
What kind of necromancy are we talking about? I agree with you insofar as reanimating dead bodies and in doing so potentially enslaving the soul is evil, but I would make the argument that necromancy as it was used in antiquity by the Greeks, as a form of divination and a means to commune temporarily with deceased loved ones, is neutral at worst.
>>
>>66724213
depends on the person in question really. In the Diablo universe, a Necromancer and Witch Doctor can both be good people who simply have influence over the dead/spirits, and spend most of their time trying to calm them or help them pass on to the next world. It's like implying all Paladins are good, when some of them can fall and do bad shit.
>>
>>66729282
It could be that bones are easier to work with.You don't have to carve them into the right shape, and while I can't remember where I read it, I distinctly recall one fantasy book where reanimating dead things was relatively easy because a corpse still "remembers" how to function, it's just a matter of giving it a kickstart.
>>
>>66730248
Yes, because good is generally capable of working together with other flavors of good.
>>66730215
You sound incredibly pretentious and mildly condescending right now, and I take pleasure in the knowledge that I will likely never have to interact with you in the real world.
>>
>>66724276
Excellent bait.
There used to not be a good/evil axis, and the chaos side of things was viewed as equivalent to evil, while law was good. Then they complicated it a bit, but it was absolutely never done as you say.
>>
>>66739927
>the chaos side of things was viewed as equivalent to evil, while law was good
This, too, is excellent bait.
>>
>>66724276
It's a good idea even if it's no true.
>>
The Dead should stay dead. Period.

Most Necromancers i've seen. Seem so fascinated with Death and the dead. Because they don't know how to Deal with Life and the Living.

They always seem Social and or Emotionally stunted. Or a Shunned shut it.
>>
>>66724213
Good Necromancers are like functioning communism- Great in theory, never ends up that way.
>>
>>66724213
Enslaving the dead is inherently evil. Combined with the pestilence this would inflict on the population, this outweighs many of the benefits of your heresy. Remember fellow servants of Pelor, proper burial requires cremation
>>
>>66729762
I love playing wacky races. I love playing necromancers. I also love the thrill of having to stay away from the rest of the party, and having to use stealth for most urban sections. I love having to graverob to get the supplies for my experiments. If your DM doesn’t make you do those things, he is a shit DM.
>>
>>66731057
Because they know just what they are playing, and are fine with it. Most necromancer players are special snowflakes that want to be spooky and good! If you want to be a good necromancer, play a Cleric of the Grave.
>>
>>66731252
>>66736675
>>66738387
>>66738590
>>66739177
He’s an Outlaw of the Crimson Road you fuckheads.
>>
>>66724213
depends
on
the
setting
>>
>>66739489
Neither skeletons nor zombies are particularly vulnerable to silver.

>>66738590
In many versions he worships Hern the Hunter (a cognate for the Gaulish god Cerunos and possibly a Celtic term for Odin in the guise of the leader of the Wild Hunt) a primitive English nature god.

>>66739068
They most certainly do not have instincts. Skeletons & zombies follow simple commands and can obey somewhat complex orders if they don't require value judgements (i.e. "keep everyone out" is OK, but "keep everyone out except X" is too complicated).



Delete Post: [File Only] Style:
[Disable Mobile View / Use Desktop Site]

[Enable Mobile View / Use Mobile Site]

All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective parties. Images uploaded are the responsibility of the Poster. Comments are owned by the Poster.