what are some of the worst/most useless spells in dnd?
>>66713423Litany of stealth
>>66713423Phantasmal killer needs someone to fail two separate saves of will and fortitude to work. It's a terrible spell.
>>66713450It does kill someone outright, and is a 4th level spell. But yeah, it's a classic noob-trap.
>>66713450my party almost got tpk`d once because a pc wasted thier last spell slot on that spell when all of our team was on low hp
>>66713423truestrike is the ultimate bad one.Our GM basically just rules it as next attack with no other caveats because it sucks so much.
>>667134235e True Strike has almost no upsides in any situation that isn't an ambush or expensive limited resource.It's useless for multiattackers (waste your whole attack action for advantage on a single role)It's useless for rogues (bonus action hide gets you the same advantage, but without wasting an action)It's useless for casters (using your action to cantrip twice gives you more potential damage with the same to-hit spread)You have to be within 30 feet, close enough for almost anyone to run into melee.It lasts 1 round, so you can't sit on it to prep for a combat.It's concentration, so if anyone nicks you before your next turn (likely since you're in combat) you could simply have wasted your action.It's bad. It could be better by being less restrictive in almost any other way, but it isn't.
>>66713444Wrong setting sempai.The litany of litany's litany
>>66713423Others already covered true strike, so some honorable mention cantrips that might have some niche use but are generally just terrible:>Infestation>Blade Ward>Poison spray (might be pushing it)
>>66713423Wish.Anyone who thinks that Wish is powerful or useful is an idiot, because the only reason that magic is powerful in DnD is that it is totally noninteractive, no one ever realistically gets a chance to influence the outcome of your spell, it always works exactly as described every time in every situation with no roll required. Its what makes a spell better than a skill in every situation.Wish leaves the exact implementation of this very costly magic entirely out of your hands. If you wish for 'I want to be very wealthy for the rest of my life' there are a hundred ways that can be granted, and roughly half of them dramatically shorten the rest of your life, perhaps to mere seconds. You have to autistically rules lawyer your wish to get anything remotely like the outcome you want, and chances are that if you go that deep into it the wish fizzles anyway because you took too long.
>>66714800you should really check your facts before spouting bullshit.since you proved to be utterly incapable to read more than a few lines of text I've marked the exact defined abilities this spell has.as you put it, these are adamant rules that are 'noninteractive' 'noninfluencable' and completely within your control
>>66714931not the anon you're arguing with, but the paragraph immediately underneath your highlighted one might be of interest to you. or not, as it backs up what he's just said above you:(
>>66714931Yeah, but no one ever uses wish for any of that shit. Who wants to burn a 9th level spell so they can cast fucking Fly?
>>66713423Erase, Hold Portal, Wizard Mark, Jump, etc. for 2eFor 5e there's a couple that stick out like Blade Ward, Witch Bolt and the like, but nothing as bad as some of the 2e spells.
>>66714994>beyond the scope of the above examplesif you remain in the scope of the named example DM-fiat can't do shit>>66715016you're still using a level 9 spell slot. therefore it'd be automatically upcast as if cast using a level 9 slot
>>66715016The ability to cast any resurrection spell without material components as a wizard. Any spell from any spell list. The ability to use any spell from any spell list at 8th level is worth it. But nah, it's definitely worse than spells like Snilloc's Snowball Swarm, which gets beat by fireball in all aspects in one level
>>66714800>DM's face when Wizard casts Wish
>>66715083>witch bolt>badWasn't aware that 1d12 lightning per round for 10 rounds at level 1 was the requirements for a bad spell. All you need it one or two other people engaging your target and you can drop whatever you're facing with ease.Now Ray of Enfeeblement, that's a garbage spell. 2nd level slot to make one target only deal half damage if they fail a save.
>>66713423>All evocation spellsconjuration and transmutation both are better at dealing sledgehammer damage>magic missiletechnically evocation but deserves a place of its own for sucking harder than the rest, biggest noob-trap after fireball.>wishcan be very good but if you're a wizard you can always cast gate, dimensional lock and geas on the efreeti, the geas being to serve the wizard until the day he dies. There you go, unlimited wishes.The DM will hate you for that, sure, but it's completely possible and pretty fun.tl;dr: it's cheaper in the long run to enslave djinnis.>meteor swarmanother evocation spell, the magic missile of 9th level for sure.>backbiterGuilty pleasure of mine. Not only is it listed as necromancy despite being as transmutational as sticks to snakes but the whole "a wizard stands there, menacingly and as you swing your sword, it attacks you instead" is too badass not to like it at least a bit. The trap can be found in the description of the spell: "You cast this spell on any wooden-hafted two-handed weapon" which already limits greatly its range. On top of that, the attack roll is against the attacker's own AC, which means that a barbarian unaware will power attack the wizard and get a total of 16 which would obliterate the caster's AC, but not so much the barb's 19 AC.Overall, too situational.>disjunctionyou risk losing your character whenever you cast it, not worth it. I'd rather go to Mordor and throw the ring in the Mount of Doom over casting disjunction, having a chance of losing my spellcasting abilities (basically my pc is an kill) and summoning the guy who made the item, many times being powerful gods such as Vecna himself.>power word killit's a lvl 9 spell, which means you're at least level 17. If your enemy has less than 100 hps at lvl 17, just let the barbarian kill him and instead prepare stop time for the day.>all summon monstersJust get a druid. Not the worst spell just for being able to summon elementals.
>>66719725dishonorary mention:>fire trapjust ran out of space to write it down but it's the best way to waste a 4th level slot for something so shitty.
>>66719381It uses a warlocks Concentration which is better spent on a lot of other things, and the eldrich blast invocation let's you do more than a d12 of dmg per turn without concentration or a spell slot It's actually really good if you can extend the range. It's far to easy for your target to just run up and melee you out of concentration, or to run out of range. Its not terrible, but I just don't find it worth it
>>66713688Truestrike + Siege weaponry.When the weapon you are using requires multiple rounds to reload, spending a turn to help ensure you hit is worth it.Yeah, forces it into a niche roll, but don't underestimate the power of a wizard with 12 catapults all loaded and waiting for him to stroll down the line and pull all the levers.
>>66719725>fireball>noob trapIsn't it literally built as an overpowered spell because it's such a classic? It's still even got some advantages that keep Melf's meteors from powercreeping it completely.
>>66721312>30 foot rangeGood thinking, but the book says no fun today.
>>66719725What an absolutely terrible post.
>>66719381Witch Bolt is a concentration spell.A concentration spell that requires you to stay within 30 feet of your opponent, which means your opponent can walk up to you and hit you and most likely make you lose concentration in one turn.Doesn't help that it's an arcane spell, so only squishy classes can learn it.
>>66721635What a low effort post>>66721545You're wasting a 3rd level spell slot for what's just a nuke-spell that doesn't even deal that much damage. Lightning Bolt is the same level and is better, Scorching Ray is one level lower and actually deals more damage. The area modifier just doesn't make up for it.
>>66725067>Lightning BoltIt's also 8d6. It's much easier to hit 3+ targets with a fireball. Does "better" in this case mean "not fire damage?" (Which is true, but it's situationally important - much like fireball's AOE.)>Scorching RayIt's 2d6×3, ×4 if you upcast it at 3rd (so 8d6). Are you getting the higher damage from the potential for a crit? (You could use fireball to target two creatures instead and do significantly more damage between the two of them.)
>mfw when the warlock in our party constantly casts truestrike and witch bolt.I keep it quiet because I don't want to be the badwrongfun guy and people should play their character as they want, but Jesus Christ.
Can someone tell me how Enthrall in 5e isn't absolute trash? You're wasting a 2nd level slot for an effect that can be recreated by just screaming at them to discract them.
>>66725627In addition to that, Hex is lower level, longer ranged, fulfills exactly the same function with no save allowed, bypasses charm immunities, performs additional functions beyond disadvantage on a single kind of wisdom check, can be used for other purposes (like disadvantage on strength), and takes a bonus action instead of a normal.
>>66713688With quicken spell, you will hit every spell you shoot.
>>66725435>It's also 8d6It's 10d6>Does "better" in this case mean "not fire damage?"Not only, it also has a longer range (120' line) which can situationally make it more destructive.>It's 2d6×3, ×4 if you upcast it at 3rd (so 8d6). Are you getting the higher damage from the potential for a crit?It's 4d6 and every 3 levels you cast another bolt up to a maximum of 3 bolts for a grand total of 12d6 at lvl 11 which is higher than fireball's 10d6 at the same level.
>>667259035e true strike is pitifully bad compared to previous editions. It's rolling twice and taking the highest number against a single target you choose before attacking and requires concentration.
>>66726015Really? That’s horrible, in 3.5 you add +20 insight to your roll. It makes it so you can never miss. Quickened true strike + orb of force/acid was my whole combo.
>>66725966>no mention of caster levels>all that shit that's just plain wrong no matter which edition you're inNigga you need to pick one and stick to it, you can't make 4e by playing 5 and 3 at the same time.
>>66726098>Nigga you need to pick one and stick to it, you can't make 4e by playing 5 and 3 at the same time.This makes me want to see someone try it.
>>66713423true strike, friends, witch's bolt, crown of madness, bane, compel duel, ray of enfeeblement, phantasmal killer, wierd, mordankainen's swordand that's just 5e phb
>>66726048>in 3.5 you add +20 insight to your roll.Yeah, pretty useful against dragons and other creatures with retardedly high AC.>Quickened true strike + orb of force/acid was my whole combo.I don't often go with quickened true strike because I'm more of a BfC man and I'd rather cast a quickened glitterdust, making the touch AC 8-12 for me to hit it with ray of stupidity/enfeeblement/clumsiness. It's not the same thing but I find the latter more useful in the long run because even if I don't hit my ray where others would, I still have the enemy blinded for some fair share of rounds.
>>66725966>120' line is longer ranged than a 20' radius within (400+40(CL))'
>>66726098But... I was talking about 3.5e, nothing that I said was wrong.>no mention of caster levelsWhen I said lvl, I meant to say caster level, as I assumed you're not playing a wizard 2/beguiler 5/barbarian 6/monk 7>>66726329Fair, forgot it was a long range spell.
>>66726437>3.5>serious discussion of blasting spells that aren't conjurations>serious discussion of play at level 10 and beyond>serious discussion of 3.5I'll give you this much - fireball is terrible in 3.5
>>66726164>mordankainen's swordThat spell is hilariously bad. I picture a scene where Mordankainen walked past a cleric doing Spiritual Weapon one day and said to himself "I gotta get me one of those." Then he goes home and spends all his time doing spell research coming up with a wizard version that's worse in every way and he goes "good enough".
>>66725966>>66726437>lightning bolt does more damageThey're both 1d6/cl and cap at 10>using blasting spells at 10th levelNo
>>66719381You have to expend an action to do a measly 1d12 damage, and it requires concentration and staying close to your target. Or you could just spam cantrips and do more damage this way, even if you miss a couple of times. Witch Bolt is complete garbage.
>>66725435Also, one thing I forgot to point out: fireball is more likely to turn your teammates into dust. LB can be casted in any situation because most of the times you'll have a direct line against an oponent that doesn't go through an ally, while the range of fireball is so big that casting in any room smaller than 40'×40' becomes a poor choice past first action.>>667265433.5e was the big thing in D&D forums (enworld, GITP) for many more years than any other edition and it still is fairly popular.>>66726697>lightning bolt does more damageWho are you quoting, senpai?>using blasting spells at 10th levelI don't, I just said there's better alternatives to fireball.
>>66719725Magic Missile's main appeal is that it always hits. It has a good niche for that, even if there are better spells out there. Great way to take down something like a Quickling without causing too much collateral damage.Fireball tends to hurt yourself and your friends too much for my tastes, but it's still a powerful spell and you're stupid if you think it's bad.
>>66726329120' x 5'600'(1'+4'+4') squared45' x 45'2025'
>>66727667>Fireball tends to hurt yourself and your friends too much for my tastes, but it's still a powerful spell and you're stupid if you think it's bad.it literally only works outdoors.
>>66727765But what did he mean by this?
>>66727805So does the Paladin's warhorse and the Druid's Moonbeam.Besides, plenty of spells only work well inside or at night, such as Dancing Lights. And plenty of adventures take place outdoors anyway. If you don't think you'll need Fireball in a small crevasse-filled cave you can prepare something else, but if you're going through a large open desert to find and slay a Blue Dragon or something Fireball is a great spell. That just goes back to what adventure you're on and what your DM likes to do. If your DM loves indoor adventures through caves and lair delving Fireball is kinda shit and will just blow up your friends. If your DM likes long LOTR-esque journeys through the great outdoors Fireball is pretty good.
What kind of plot hook can I make for a gnome hobo mercenary who was bullied as a kid because he was too tall for a gnome?
>>66727935Like all spells, fireball works best in certain situations. When in my original post I decided to call fireball (and magic missile) a noobtrap, it's because many people treat them for good-for-everything spells to always have prepared.
>>66719381>focus on damage and length>ignore range and Concentration requirementObfuscate more why dont you? By your logic eldritch blast is a terrible spell.
>>66728111He wants to become the shortest fucking gnome
>>66725596>melee runs up and hits them>spell ends>archers hit them>spell ends>wizards zap them>spell endsCongrats on wasting two precious spells known and slots on 12 avg damage once a day that forces you to be in range of everyone's attacks. Meanwhile my EB Warlock just blasted a guy for 8 avg and pushed him back 10ft, from 120ft away, all day. And in a few levels while you have to use even higher spell slots to get avg 24 damage once a day, I'm hitting multiple targets or the same guy for avg 16 and pushing him back 20ft, all day.
>>66729739Spell sniping warlock is so much fun to play
>>66719725>Magic missile is badWhat the actual fuck
>>66730039>pic relatedOhh I'm totally going to die to a 3.5 average damage per missile, literally shaking in my pants.
>>6673007310.5 mean damage is fairly average for a 1st-level spell in 5e. The real problem is that Magic Missile gives up the potential ability to do that much damage to each of several targets, the way a spell like Burning Hands allows, in exchange for "utility."
>>667301495e's pretty gay, ngl. I wasn't talking about it, though.
>>66719725>>66730073Fell drain.Is pretty nice metamagic.Every time you get hit by the spell in question you gain 1 negative level.Now imagine fell drain + magic missile.I'll let you ponder for a minute.
>>66730274Sadly, it doesn't work like that (although even then fell drain is a great metamagic feat) Spells that deal damage also give you a negative level but it's not that for each attack a spell deals.A better use for fell drain would be FB/LB because it can affect many people at once.
>>66730218In 3e, Magic Missile is crap until you're at least level 5, where you can just start throwing save-or-sucks at enemies instead of trying to burn their HP down. It's a little underwhelming as an at-will in 4e.
>>66714800>very costly magicNot if you cheese it. The last time we played level 20 pathfinder, the wizard had a fun sequence of spells involving a great white whale to get free wishes.
>>66719725>you risk losing your character whenever you cast itThey fixed that in Pathfinder. You have to actively choose to destroy a magic item now for it to fuck you over.
>>66731081Being fair, it's only if you try to disjunct an artifact, which is rare on its own. It still deserves a place.
>>66730073whole point of MM is that it's auto hit.
>>66731055>a great white whaleElaborate.
>>66734723guaranteed hit is always good to have in a pocket. it's good on literally anyone except a caster of shield
>>66734760it's just a dead action since the damage you deal is so low it just doesn't make up for the instahit (it allows sr so not that good either), you could instead cast grease, for instance, and be more helpful.The only situation in which I could wholeheartedly say it's good is when you're fighting undeads at low levels and the cleric was so retarded he didn't prepare magic weapons because then your damage output will be around the same as a fighter but besides that specific scenario, it's just some meh spell that's only savageable by adding a bazillion metamagic feats.
Unseen Servant is pretty much worthlessBut I literally always take it whenever possible because I love it.
>>66734954Pretty much this. I want a ghost butler
>>66734954I disagree. You can trigger traps with it and have it open doors before you do, many times saving you from ambushes. You can also do fun stuff with it like sneaking a necklace of fireball next to the enemy, have the warlock throw a pint of oil next to it and when they least expect it...You cast prestidigitation on the oil, which sets on fire and activates the necklace for 18d6 points of damage right on the enemy's face.Fun times.
>>66713423Minor action for sometimes 2 damage, can't even be used in combination with marking for a terrible catch 22.
>>66730073I think it's very useful in a wand.Even out of a wand, the auto-hit lets you deal consistent damage output and it's medium range so you can be a pretty fair distance away. Also ignores stuff like mirror image so if there's a caster, like a summoner, you can keep pinging him until he loses concentrationForce damage is also useful for ghosts if you're dealing with them at low level
>>66735683>your whole postI mean, is it all of that really worth it? it's a spell 5 levels long, after which it becomes easily replaceable by better alternatives.>pic related
>>66719725Magic missile is for breaking the concentration of other casters, not for dealing damage. Even at first level thats 3 automatic hits, that means 3 concentration checks out of a first level spell slot. If you really REALLY need to break concentration you get 1 more automatic hit per spell level, granted you usually aren't going to want to use 3rd level slots and above to cast it, but if breaking concentration is going to mean the difference between life and death you could potentially force up to 11 concentration checks in a single turn.
>>66736406actually, the concentration check is 10+total damage dealt. At 5th level you'd be forcing a caster to roll concentration 20 which is good for a lvl1 spell but it requires you to prepare an action or to be lucky enough that the enemy wanted to summon or cast any spell that requires at least 1 full round action. Either way, I guess you have a point.
Can someone please explain to me barney-style why ray of enfeeblement is so terrible
>>66726048It's part of the problem with the advantage/disadvantage system. Everything is boiled down to that.
>>66736596that's not the real reason, it's all the caveats.TS would be fine if it's just an indefinite next attack advantage. But it has too many caveats such as concentration, 30ft range, until next round duration, etc.
>>66736476I was referencing 5e rules, you're correct of course as far as 3.5e rules. In 5e you make a con saving throw every time you take damage, DC of 10 or half the damage delt whichever is higher. So cast at first lvl you're forcing three DC 10 con saves, plus one more for each lvl you upcast it. So in the VERY unlikely case you're casting magic missle with a 9th lvl spell slot you're forcing eleven different DC 10 con saves. Granted if they have the shield spell the enemy caster can completely negate it with a 1st lvl spell slot, so unless you KNOW they dont have it prepared and breaking their concentration is life or death you'd be retarded to spend a 9th level spell slot on it.
>>66713423Any spell that limits itself to Strictly damage applications.Ruins the fun of it, in favor of a wargaming type ability.>(Wargaming is fine... IN wargames.)D&D's Fireball can be the poster child for this, for year and years now any non-damaging enemy applications have been stripped away form this. Yeah it's still a good combat spell, a staple in fact. But it also makes me feel brain dead every time i use it.
>>66734954Load that baby up with alchemist fire and then have it go drop it near the enemy. 100+ gp seeking missile.
>>66736561only useful in one of 6 enemies which uses str as their main abilitiesbetter damage mitigation abilities existdoesn't do damage
>>66716635My nigga, I don't always pervert wishes but when I do that's how I do it.
>>66737349thanks for the breakdown, legitimately appreciate it
>>66737349>>66737391Honestly, Ray of Enfeeblement is more a GM tool than it is a Player one. Think of a bunch of guards with wands of it, using it as Nonlethal subdual. It's something that needs mass-fire to be effective, but when it is effective it drops someone's speed to nothing and can knock them out *and* doesn't leave lasting environmental effects or actual damage to the target.If you're going Magicpunk (which is arguably one of the best uses for DnD), guards and cops with Wands of Enfeeblement makes total sense.