>Best game is experienced GM, newbie playersYou can't disprove this.
>>66251500Best game is no game. Runnning is a thankless chore, playing is a train of disappointment.
Best game is with friends. You cannot disprove this.
>You can't disprove this.
>>66251500Not really. Only if you are a powertripping gm.
>>66251594Powertripping as a GM has nothing to do with experience. It's a result of being a shitty person.
>>66251500thats not who plays on critical role though
>>66251658Are you implying that Critical Role is best game?Because if so, get ready to elaborate why, because I don't watch it
>>66251500Good experienced players reign supreme.
>>66251639Never said it did.
>>66251500>God exists>Best game is three newbie GMs, one experienced players>I am a thousand year old alien from the planet rakjdjaoihYou can't disprove this.
>>66251690Okay. So why do you think that the only situation in which an experienced GM can have fun with new players is when said GM also happens to be power tripping? How about enjoying seeing how newbies deal with situations that are completely novel to them?
>>66251557Sounds exactly why running for "experienced" (i.e. jaded) players is worse than running for newbs.
>>66251763Don't talk back to me.
Why would I try to disprove it? It's absolutely correct.By far, the best game comes from players not knowing the rules. No bitching about balance or perceived lack of balance, no metagaming bullshit, no "wait the monster can't do that it says so in the DMG!" as though the players are entitled to know the inner workings of the fantasy world.There is literally, never anything wrong with hiding the rules from the players, and new players or players who purposefully remain ignorant are the best. You can't prove me wrong because it's objectively correct.OP is correct, absolutely based 100%.
>>66251500some of the funnest shit I've run was for my little brother and his friends when they were like 10.Just seeing their "OH SHIT!" reaction when they met ONE skeleton...Shit was great.
>>66251658As someone who watches the show, it might as well be
>>66251500Best game is when it's a proper roleplaying game, instead of rollplaying.As both player and DM, the best games are the one centered around a good story with interesting characters, not who can get the most DPT and collecting a shopping list of magic items to complete your "build"
>>66251500Best game is being able to lie to players and not have them catch on to your bullshit until they're with another groupIt's great because it means they don't realize their experience was a sham of misdirection and broken promises until it's too late, and I get to pat myself on the back for making them feel things in the meantime
>>66251500>You can't disprove this.Nor do we have to. You made your claim, now back it. Burden of proof, fucker.
>>66251500>experienced GMno argument of course.>newbie playersnewbieness is neither necessary nor sufficient for game quality. noobs can powergame, fail to pay attention, or be shitty roleplayers as much as experienced gamers can. the only likely benefit of players being noobs is that they won't think they know the game better than the GM, which is more than cancelled out in most cases by them having no idea what they're doing.
>>66252858>look mom, I'm debating >>66251975 put it best, by the way.>As both player and DM, the best games are the one centered around a good story with interesting characters, not who can get the most DPT and collecting a shopping list of magic items to complete your "build"Holy shit, this so much. If I wanted to play a video game I would.
>>66253128>newbieness is neither necessary nor sufficient for game qualityTrue, but it correlates with a sense of wonder and a lack of the more common "entitled" behaviours demonstrated by more experienced players that know how things are "supposed" to work.
>>66253180Can't give an anon a (you)? Ah well, glad you agree. I dislike most DMs approach to combat in their games as well. Wild animals fight blindly and to the death, sentient enemies don't pay attention to the sounds of combat just down the hall, or the waves and waves of fodder to whittle you down, but who really pose no risk.Best DM for combat put it "If the encounter can't potentially kill you, why do it?" And encouraged finding ways to handle the problem without any combat, although not for just avoiding it.DMs who treat dungeons like WoW instances are a blight.
>>66253128how would noobs powergame when they have no idea what the rules are? Im sure op is implying that noobs dont read the ruleset and the only argument i see is that noobs often play as though they have information that their character doesnt which the dm can easily correct
>>66253211>it correlates with a sense of wonder and a lack of the more common "entitled" behaviours demonstrated by more experienced players that know how things are "supposed" to work.You might as well just read stories to children at that pointWhy are you even spending money on rulesets when you'll only use it to bamboozle unwitting players into thinking your game has an impartial resolution mechanism
gotta agree. New players don't try to powergame, they just pick shit that looks fun and roll with it. Everything is new and shiny for them and they are less likely to exploit mechanics or know the optimal solution for many situations.
Best game is an experienced group with very good chemistry and history who bounce off each other. This is fucking fact.
>>66253387I feel like that's less a problem with player experience level, and more a problem with the hobby's structure and the way it breaks players over time
>>66253418I fail to see how those are two separate thingsyes, players break over time, but to be broken over time you need experienceTherefore player experience is directly correlated with the game breaking them over time
>>66253211Plenty of entitled noobs who want all the awesome loot on offer, who aren't willing to actually go through the shitshow to get it. Had a newbie in a Fallout game titled Piss Poor Group, cause we were, who bitched endlessly at the fact we didn't have power armor and plasma weaponry by session 10. Ignoring the fact the DM and group name itself told him how the tone was supposed to be.I like to keep good loot rare. Make them work their asses off to get every single piece of sweet gear, so they actually cherish that shit. That, and signature weapons. Did a Rifts game where my character had a possessed sword from her home real. Just a bog standard vibrosword that could talk, but rather than just upgrade to the next best piece, she kept it around and used it pretty much always, spending tons into upgrading it until the DM just made it into a companion character with sufficient magic to act on it's own.
>>66253418>>66253387Rollplay vs Roleplay right here. Due to the rise of video games, plenty of newbies treat PnPs like Diablo in paper form, and just focus on getting the biggest numbers. It really comes down to the players, not their level of experience, if they are gonna be fun to play with, or a total shit who will rule lawyer you over everything.
>>66253443What I mean is that the issue we should be concerned with at a high level is the structural aspects of roleplaying which rob players of their enthusiasm and shift their emphasis toward exploiting rules-systems over shared storytelling
>>66253474at least new players are so overwhelmed by the myriad of books and rules and options that even if they try to powergame, they're unlikely to make some of the worst builds out thereunless they just google a build that is
>>66251500>Not having one more experienced player to encourage roleplaying and teach the newbs good habits
>>66251500>best game is one where the DM thinks he's 'good' because he's run games before but never actually got good and is running players with no standards to go off ofNo. Sounds like insecurity. Best game is one where everyone knows what they're doing and can roleplay at a good level.
>>66253298I'm a GM and I deeply agree with your statementMost enemies run away if they are out gunned and fighting to the dead is only reserved for the crazy and desperate. Tho I think that encounters can be more than "kill each other and the last one standing wins"
>>66251557thisfuck GMs and fuck the gamelowsy fucks always makin shit up
>>66254327I forego these things a lot of the time because it's a chore for the players and not fun at all. That's not to say things from the other room can't notice and come over, but having to constantly worry about pulling shit from another room only to accidentally pull the whole damn place is not only annoying but leads to obscenely long encounters.
>>66253298>Best DM for combat put it "If the encounter can't potentially kill you, why do it?"Because it's mechanically more satisfying if you have fights where you feel like a bad ass, where you're evenly matched, and where you're seriously challenged.The challenge rollercoaster is a good thing, just match to story beats. The intensity of ramping risk translates to a more effective narrative, just like the story is more fun because you're part of it, instead of just reading it.
>>66254327It's depressingly amusing when you throw enemies who value their lives, and have their own bag of tricks to draw upon. I think an elite band of orc/goblin/kobold/insert lowleve fodder champions, the best of the best in the tribe, challenging the adventurers to ritual combat for possession of the lands and the riches, to ensure their people aren't wiped out is a far more engaging than just "Kill all the mindless cannon fodder goblins."
>>66252631>>66254372Then why are you here? Go to /v/ or something
>>66254674I feel the best way to establish a character as bad ass isn't to drag them through round after round of clearing out fodder.An example from an old game: Character is a lizardfolk ranger, likes to hunt during party downtime. Early on, he needs to fight the gators, sharks, and other things he hunted. Shortly before the game ended, he went hunting for a megalodon. Instead of have us roll out the waves upon waves of sharks he drew out, waiting for the 'Don to appear, he just hand waved it, since by this point Burntscale was a whirling ball of claws, spikes, and blades.Wasn't until the 'Don arrived that we actually did any combat rolling, and as I sat there for three rounds, being used as a chewtoy, I felt pretty fucking badass to be able to soak up that much punishment at level 7 in 3.5Action heroes don't look truly badass until they go up against someone who should be better than them, and yet they outsmart, outwill, or out hardass them.Because really, there is nothing badass about getting whittled down slowly by trash that you can kill in a swing or two, but still get a fuckton of hits against you every round because there's so fucking many of them.
>>66254920to complain and be angry
>>66254932>Because really, there is nothing badass about getting whittled down slowly by trash that you can kill in a swing or two, but still get a fuckton of hits against you every round because there's so fucking many of them.It's actually a fairly common way to die in heroic last stands in fiction
>>66252111Pretty much. One of my groups which is thankfully ending soon sucks dick at roleplay and are obssessed with loot and rolling, which has led to nobody giving a fuck about each others characters or any NPCs and turned the game into an absolute joke where the most interesting plot is ‘what are we doing next campaign’
>>66251500>Best game is experienced GM, newbie playersI feel it's better when at least one player has a good amount of experience, so they can guide the other newbies into making their characters better or show how to roleplay
>>66253504I feel it comes from the feeling of 'been there done that' that msot of those players have. They aren't really interested in your characters or plots because they've been through stories like that so many times already. Maybe some details will change, but the core of the story is unlikely to entertain them. I have some newbie GMs who run simple stories and while I try not to look like it, I get bored out of my mind from whatever scenario they cooked up and just play along. Many experienced players are less polite.
>>66252111Honestly I think this is a more debatable matter of taste. I always thought my home game was on the more lax, character focused side, but after getting out and trying a few open tables i've seen the other side.There's nothing worse than joining a group of amateur thespians playing edgy freeform with a boiling hatred of table talk when all you wanna do is eat nachos and laugh when your buddy gibs himself on the Hall of Rotating Gravity Spikes. I'll take my number-crunching minmaxer player any day, because he's there to have fun obliterating giant monsters.It's all in group expectation. Honestly >>66251574 really has it, my group is all across the role/roll spectrum but no one gives a shit
>>66252111Best game is having both. Why do people act like you can only have one or the other. It often just sounds like people trying to seem smarter than people who play video games.
>>66255470I am more focused on the roleplaying side of things, but I am all about killing those giant monsters. Key word is giant. I don't give a fuck about flexing my level cock on a bunch of worthless fodder.
>>66255559I have had plenty of sessions that were one long drawn out combat, and enjoyed every minute of it, but that's because it was a life or death final conflict between two warring nations, with the PCs serving as elite troops to seal breaches and handle threats. We didn't get bogged down fighting the fodder. Yeah, they showed up, but they served as backup for the real targets.I've also had multi sessions of dungeon crawling that made me leave the group because it was mind numbingly boring, slogging through one room, clearing it, looting it, resting, and repeating.When it comes down to it, am I killing shit because that's what you do, or am I killing shit because my character would have a reason? I like having reasons to commit genocide on local natives.
>>66255743So you agree with me.
>>66253387>New players don't try to powergameWrong.
>>66253387Are DMs who hate players who come up with cool combos just brainlets that don't know how to deal with them? That's what it seems like. I don't really ban anything since there's always a way to beat them.
>>66255827No, because I still believe it's better to roleplay than rollplay. Seeing your character as an actual being in a world, instead of "Disposable Plaything 37" has always been more entertaining to me. Everyone has their own opinion on the matter, but I still believe the best game is one centered on roleplaying, not rollplaying.
>>66256204If only one player does that, you have to design combats and situations around them. They have already won in this situation because you put far more effort in the game to do things with their character than anyone else.
>>66253508Horseshit. I've had people try and powergame who have almost academic knowledge of the game as their first ever RPG session actuvely lower the quality and people who have been playing for decades who absolutely involve themselves as characters in a world to an incredible extent. OP is wrong and should be flagellated for espousing nonsense.
>>66256259Congrats, now manage the conflict between quartermasters and the river merchants over how much grain they're getting.
>>66256243That's literally what I said though. Having both a great story but also have great combat and a progression of power within the system. So you agree with me.
>>66256581I do not find combat to be exclusive between roleplay and rollplay. In roleplay, I have a reason to want to kill someone besides the promise of sweet sweet EXP and loot. I've had plenty of fights simply because I HATED the individual in question, had wanted to kill them for a long time, but could never get the slippery motherfucker. I didn't get any loot for killing him either because I used an RPG on him.I just believe we have a misunderstand of terms, and agree the best game is a mixture of good group story telling, and killing shit dead to reach godhood via genocide. Which I agree. If you meet god, kill them.
>>66253211Golden cows and rule expectations are why people say to not play DnD, by the way.
>>66251557Can I ask a serious question? Why are you like this? I'm not being condescending, ironic, or speaking tongue-in-cheek. I am genuinely curious as to why you are in a place specifically designed to support a common "thing" that you apparently don't like. I'm not mad or upset, I just think it's really strange behavior.Again, and I promise you that I mean this in the most sincere way, why are you here?Do you want attention? Is it to dissuade us that the "thing" is bad and that we shouldn't like it? If you find it so revolting why wouldn't you just leave?
>>66257993Welcome to the new age, where people define themselves by the things they hate rather than the things they love.
>>66258033>he's not bringing his friends to the hobby
>>66258029>>66258033But that doesn't make any sense. If there was some "thing" that you liked enough to hover over a relatively obscure image board while simultaneously being so bothered by it that you describe it as > "a thankless chore... a train of disappointment."wouldn't you do something about it?I have been in 3 different game stores in the last 10 days, each one in a different state. Every single one was made up of ~70% white adult men, ~20% white adult women, and ~10% black adult men. If what they're saying is even remotely true those numbers would be impossible. That means they've developed this opinion from the internet, which is inexplicably full of people who know nothing about the state of the "thing" and yet shout about how it's been ruined, and now they're upset about it.That's their fault.
>>66258260Your mistake is that you think people needed to be logical about their hatreds. >Also thinking that anyone here leaves their computer or goes outside
Can confirm. I’m DMing for the second time ever with totally newbie players and not only do they think I’m way better at it than I am, but they’re still super into piddly little shoot-outs with cliche enemies.
>>66258260>Every single one was made up of ~70% white adult men, ~20% white adult women, and ~10% black adult menWrong, only white people play or shhould play anyway
>>66259193>>66258033It's weird that your H key is so sticky.It's a shame there's an H in "pathetic", now we know it's you when you describe yourself.
>>66251975>There is literally, never anything wrong with hiding the rules from the playersIn theory, sure. In practice you'll get shitty GMs who bend the rules just to keep their railroads in place and stamp out any directions the players want to go but the GM doesn't. That's why players often advocate for openness from the GM, so they don't pull shit to make the game worse for everyone else.
>>66253387Where does all this romanticism over "new players do not try to powergame" come from?I have been alongside many new players in various RPGs. In my experience, regardless of the system, new players try to optimize just as much as experienced players, if not significantly more so. It is just that they are bad at doing so, which makes it come across like they are not trying to powergame.Perhaps the single most common type of new player I have seen across my experiences with pick-up groups is the murderhobo player who creates some kind of "badass" combat machine (who is actually middling at fighting), tries to solve the majority of problems with violence, never pays any attention to noncombat/utility optimization whatsoever, fumbles and misunderstands the basic rules of the game (most especially the combat system, ironically), and most tellingly of them all, cries doom and gloom and whines when their character takes even a moderate chunk of damage.I have seen this type of new player a *lot*, significantly more so than any other type of new player, even across various non-D&D games. You would be surprised by how often such players want to be "the combat guy" even in an RPG with less of an emphasis on fighting.
>>66251500>spending 10-15 minutes per player turn re-explaining how to add up your attack bonus and how spells worknah, I'll take experience players who understand what they can and can't do any day
>>66251574... Oh I get it, because fa/tg/uys don't have friends.
>Only my third time DMing >5e>Group of friends want to play>1. Guy who used to DM and almost always plays adventures as written. Complains about role play being cringey, paradoxically is upset about any kind of race overlap in the party while also upset that people want to play races other than human. Loudly bitched about the stats of other players as being too OP when I mentioned them offhand. Enormous elitist about everything. Picked Elf Fighter after I teaser him about humans being boring. >2. Guy who says he's played once before and wants to be an elf wizard. A giant weeaboo with a katana hilt as a stick shift in his mini Cooper that has anime decals on it. Not usually a very expressive person.>3. Very experienced player who wants to do lots of role-play and wanted to be the most monstrous race he could get away with a wacky character concept. ("I want to be an Aarakocra, like a toucan Aarakocra, that's a hitman posing as a courier!") Very amicable guy in general. >4. Enthusiastic player who owns tons of material, but only has played twice. I'm guessing he wants the game to be a through-and-through power fantasy as he kept asking if he could reroll any stat that was below a 10 and made a Loxodon Cleric. Kind of a basic bro rolled with a mainstream nerd in terms of personality. Jokes are largely quoting something.>5. Unsure about experience with traditional RPGs, but tons of board game experience. Wants to be a dragonborn bard. Personality is a natural storyteller who constantly embellishes everything and you constantly doubt if anything he says is real. >6. Flaky guy who has a super muted personality, but is surprisingly sincere and invested in playing the game from my one campaign of experience with him. Last to make his character and went with Barbarian because he hasn't played one before and all the critical roles were covered. Do you think this will be a fun game? An average game? A nightmare?
>>66257993Because hate gets me off redditor, everytime you respond to my posts know there's a fat neckbeard jacking off to them.
>>66259745the guy who is basically a courier pigeon that is secretly an assassin is actually a pretty fun concept to be perfectly honest
>>66259932To clarify, I'm not trying to convey bias and all these people are my friends. I think I'm just interested in the generalizations on /tg/ regarding what new and experienced players are like.
>>66258065>Implying I have freinds
>>66259292Really. Fucking really? That's the best you could come up with?
>>66259292Just send reports. Offtopic for the first one, racism for the second. Easy, no (you)s given, and you don't have to waste time letting these morons fling shit at you either
>>66260153>Offtopic for the first one, racism for the second.whoops.Racism for the first, offtopic second. My bad.
>>66256814Then let me clarify. I do wholeheartedly mean killing things that need to be killed. I don't think I ever run things where there are enemies that are just 'there for exp.' But that's why I don't use exp anymore. I just level up the party when I think the story has progressed to a point that I think they should level up.
>>66259745Sounds like an average group.Sounds like you'll experience the widest range of terrible, and terrific moments.
>>66251500You made the claim, it's on you to prove it
>>66251500No dear god. I hate running for new players. Please just give me an experienced group that knows the rules so I don't have to remind them how their characters work every combat. Don't even get me started on the roleplay. No your uwu so innocent warlock isn't fucking cute or interesting and if I hear the words mister come out of your mouth in that tone again I'm gonna have a stroke. Fucking hell if you want the new players take 'em, but I really hate it.
>>66259745>6 playersoh no
>>66259572it means as opposed to strangers or acquaintances
>>66251500>Best game is a motley mix of experienced players and new players. GM, can be new to running, but should not be new to the rules.But I say a mix due to the experienced players showing the newer ones how things work, and how to avoid being the worst.
>>66251500>Best game is an experienced GM and experienced players who enjoy the campaign conceptNewbie players are retarded and base all of their ideas on popular culture and memes, with more experienced players, especially ones who you have played with before you first off know how to play the game so you don't have to stop every 30 seconds when some retard asks "so what do I roll now that I hit him?" second off they know how to take the game seriously instead of having a bunch of retarded meme spouters saying "LOL I roll to seduce the mindless monster."