Given everything that magic can do in a lot of fantasy settings, namely transmutation of matter, etc, how would the economy in a fantasy setting work?
A few ways.Warhammer way, magic is dangerous enough to dissuade using it all the time. Also transmuted items will revert back eventually, namely gold.Energy consumption, making a burger with magic may appear free but you won't get as much energy back from eating that burger.D&D Forge Cleric provides a decent explanation for how the value between metals stays constant since 10 silver coins will always magically convert into 1 gold coin so no significant fluctuations in value and all the Forge Cleric can do is make things faster, not cheaper.Magic is only available to 1% of the population and it really doesn't matter how opulent they live or how many resources the magic consumes unless it's sapping life from the land or some such.
>>66150341The Hermetic order slaps your shit if you collapse mundane economies over not being able to keep your magical dick in your pants.
>>66150444What do you mean, I don't follow.
>>66150341Most people don't have access to magic, and the wizards are more concerned with fighting off demon armies than becoming rich on cloned swiss cheese.Just make a fantasy world behave like a folklore world. Mostly a mundane place, but some people in that world are special and have special things to do.
90% of real life economics is ideological bullshit. So trying to apply modern conceptions of economics to fantasy world building is a waste of time.
find a thing that is very hard to replicate with magic/science. it's your currency now. evolve normal economics from there.
>>66150341Most authors don't bother tackling it because it's hard, most that do sweep it aside with the justification that wizards are rare and/or reclusive or put in rules, either universally fundamental or societal, that restrict wizards from doing such things. For instance, in Full Metal Alchemists transmuting things into gold is a serious crime akin to counter-fitting money in moderndays.
>>66150507Sounds like someone hasn't properly diversified their investment portfolio.
>>66150341Nothing change. Service are still needed and payment must be made.
>>66150341On that note, anyone have any recommendations for economic systems in TRPGs? Like, Id like to see how you do an economic focused game with enough detail to make it compelling, ala Rogue Trader 40k but more developed. Just to see how someone would represent such a thing
>>66152217There probably aren't any made but the point of threads like this is to invent it. I think the economics of an imperial theocracy is very interesting.
>>66152524I could imagine it huing far closer to a command economy, but with more of an oligarchic bent. Like if all resources are rationed and indentured servitude is the primary form of employment, then I could see individuals buying warrants to trade and produce different supplies. Then PCs, as free traders able to travel and sell between different markets, would represent a way for the ensconced elites to actually expand their business outside the local economy. But who would actually distribute or buy goods I don't know
>>66150341>>66152217>how would the economy in a fantasy setting workACKS has a pretty solid take on it, with a lot of details. It's surprisingly usable and scales well. At the same time magic in that system is overall far more tame than in dnd.>economic focused gameACKS also has rules for merchant-caravan adventures, where you pick goods, destinations and so on to perform arbitrage (i.e. buy low in one place, sell high in another). And if players control organizations or domains, they have to deal with finances and policies to some extent.
>>66150590I remember that anime.
>>66150433>Energy consumption, making a burger with magic may appear free but you won't get as much energy back from eating that burger.Shouldn't it be net zero rather than a small net?>Burn 500 calories making a burger>Eat burger worth 500 calories
>>66152217I'm not 100% certain, but Harnmaster probably has something related to medieval economics. It bloody well seems to have books on everything.
>>66156004No process is ever at max efficiency. Conservation of energy says no energy is destroyed but that doesn’t mean it’s all useable. Using this example, in the real world this is entropy, the energy you can’t use or get back. In this case even if the magic is 100% efficient the human body isn’t so there’s be energy that is wasted
>>66156932Yeah, we still excrete waste after all...
>>66150590Thanks for sharing.
>>66150341Labour is the backbone of the economy so that doesn't change. The only real change is that currency won't be useful so we stick with Barter
>>66160125How would such a barter economy work?
>>66150454What setting is that?
I just say that gold and gems are one of the very few things that wizards CAN'T conjure out of thin air. And that's the reason why everyone uses them as currency. EZ
>>66162992Why can't they conjure them out of thin air?
>>66164324>Why can't they conjure them out of thin air?God of magic says nah
>>66164324Gold is non-reactive to magic, gems are formed by the innate magic of the earth. Summoning a gem just gives you a lump of rock, gems need to grow in a magical aura for decades. There are magical processes that produce gems of equivelant magical strength but they are easily identified as artifical even by a layman. Therefore, these artificial gems are only valued for their magical properties and not for monetary value
>>66152217Capitalism actually works, but is historically innacurate. Mercantilism is accurate for historical/fantasy srrings and is not too difficult to understand.
>>66150341is this the comic where the cat fucks the three eyed snake centaur?
>>66162992If magic as science is ok with you, say it's because anything with an atomic mass over 131 requires too much magical energy to transmute stuff into, much less materialize it out of thin air (which costs WAY more energy anyhow).
>>66152217>>66152524As an oldbeard: d20 modern had a system were everrything wealth based was a modifier and a check.A character has a wealth score. It could purchase any item with a purchase modifier below that score without it affecting theirr financial status.Items with a higher score require a check with the characters wealth score added. Depending on the legality of the item, the target score increases.If the check fails, the item still is bought - the character's wealth score decreases to indicate a lower financial status.i.e: You have a score of +3. Buying milk: easy peasy. Buying a flamethrower: might reduce that score to +2. Buying a house might put it to -1. Lot harder to buy milk then.
>>66164533>is this the comic where the cat fucks the three eyed snake centaur?>>66164646>Lot harder to buy milk then.Not if you already bought the flamethrower
>>661503411) It's rare and hard to acquire. For most people, magic simply isn't an option. For the powerful, magic is mainly used to acquire more power, namely more magic. This falls flat if players are allowed to cast magic. And it might blow your mind, but this is what D&D started with. 2) Magic is a replacement for technology. We CAN here and now, in this society, transmute matter. But it's atoms at a time, expensive as hell, limited to a laboratory and not financially viable. Take all of that and say that's how "high level" magic works. 3) Magic is fundementally limited. There's something keeping mages from having a production line of stone-shape making endless city megastructures: Drained mana fields, the gods don't like it, limited reagents. 4) Calories. All spells cost calories and sure, you can cast a spell to build a stone wall, but you'll need to eat a cow and it's cheaper to get some masons. 5) There's PLENTY of economic potential, but the god-damned dragons keep burning shit down, the orcs keep raiding, and mind-flayers take their pick out of the college. Could have magical utopia, except for all these fucking monsters.
>>66150519>>66160125>>66162992You're talking about how a monetary system works where people can transmute gold. The answer already there up in >>66150519 ALL sorts of shit will still work as money if gold is easy to replicate.
>>66164813I know what I asked.
>>66164324>The Gods made the world that way.>Gold is on a different "tier" then other materials, you can turn stone to glass or iron but not gold>No spells have been discovered or invented that can do that, magic can't just be made up however you want>it is possible but so rare and hard to pull off its essential mythical
-High tariffs, especially on manufactured goods.-Forbidding colonies to trade with other nations.-Monopolizing markets with staple ports.-Banning the export of gold and silver and magic materials, even for payments.-Forbidding trade to be carried in foreign ships, as per, for example, the Navigation Acts.-Subsidies on exports.-Promoting manufacturing and industry through research or direct subsidies.-Limiting wages.-Maximizing the use of domestic resources.-Restricting domestic consumption through non-tariff barriers to trade.
>>66150341One of the laws of magic is that all conjured energy and matter will disappear after a certain amount of time. This is why drinking conjured water and eating conjured food should only be done in extreme survival situations, as your body will be immediately deprived of the incorporated nutrients and water after the duration ends.
>>66153732>>66156179>>66164646Much obliged for your suggestions. I'll probably end up making my own for various settings but would prefer to know ahead of time what works and what's boring gameplay. AKC is actually on sale on drivethrurpg right now so I think I'll take a look at that. I'd really like to find a setup for carrying out financial investments and purchasing stuff to sell. It's just such a mundane concept to most things and as a setup for a campaign it requires more concrete mathematical values, so I'd rather not pull it out of my arse.>>66152524>>66164646That's seems like a distant take on making actual purchases on the character level, and at least less stagnant that Rogue Trader's profit factor, so I'll probably end up using something similar.
>>66165769Old political cartoons, a classic.
>>66162541Not that guy, but it sounds like Ars Magica.
>>66170273Heck, doesn’t it say the website name IN the image?
>>66150341Depends on the setting
>>66151259But wouldn’t magic affect things?
>>66165769Who did this?
>>66164324the gold magisters will come round your house and break your legs with big heavy nerd books
>>66165769I don't get these, what does this mean?
>>66182262It's a list of economic policies which are typical under mercantilism. Mercantilism is basically an old economic philosophy which was used by colonial/imperial powers before capitalism caught on.>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MercantilismEconomics is hard. Like any other science it involves jargon and takes specific education to really understand it. Just reading internet articles and pop-science books will probably just get you to a level where you can bamboozle laypeople, misapply terms and concepts, and annoy people who know economics properly.>source: family member who read exactly enough about mercantilism to convince himself that it's a great idea
>>66183329Thanks for explaining.
>>66150341Look up The Tale of an Industrious Rouge, excelent story from /tg/'s better era, basically ultracapitalistic approach to fantasy setting that gets out of hand pretty quickly.
>>66183329>mercantilism to convince himself that it's a great ideaDude how is it not a great idea? The mother country gets to be totally independent as long as they control colonies with access to what ever resources they need. The mother country also gets to be rich.
>>66150341Magic is highly monitored and is enforced by high-level Eldritch Knights or some shit. Magic has the potential to break all sorts of systems, so any unlawful magic is punishable by death, including producing counterfeit gold.
>>66168664There's an investment system in Lamentations of the Flame Princess. Pretty simple; I believe it's on p 53-54 of the free version of the rules.
>>66165232wow, ive seen a lot of shitty comics in my life but that one was so unimaginably horrible that i think i developed an instant brain tumor. jesus fucking christ
>>66150590Good post! Most economies are retarded. I'm working on a campaign economy based on this book and it's price tables.
>>66189095Is it that bad?
>>66171742They obviously didn’t look.
>>66164533I don't think that they've actually gone that far yet...
>>66186957Is the rest of it any good?
>>66194457I think so.
>>66164324>gold is anti-magic>gold is magic in a physical form and can only be created like oil reserves with millions of years of magic pooling>cosmic forces slap your shit if you try>non-cosmic forces slap your shit if you try>god of magic is a beta orbiter for the goddess of economics>they can and do but gold is only valuable to a Renaissance economy because of its scarcity thus it is relatively worthless to do until electronics come about
>>66198018Isn't beauty also a factor with gold? How would money work, then?
>>66201425Gold is pretty, yes.
>>66203316What cultures were most obsessed with it?
>>66179259HE HAS CHOSEN A BEATING BY GOLD MAGISTERS!>DING DING DING
>>66150341First, you must define the domains:>low fantasy, mid fantasy, or high fantasy>magic is coming back, magic just is, magic is fading>casters are rare, casters are plentiful>magic from singular source, magic from multiple sources>shape and form of magic e.g. somatic, verbal, material components, relic/artifact powered, innate only, etc...One of the following can explain economics i.e. scarcity of all goods including magic, as well as supply and demand relations:>magic immune metal: this can serve as an obvious choice for currency, you can't vanish, transform, summon, create, guise, levitate etc... this special material, as a consequence, any kingdom with access to it will be rich and powerful, as both magic resistance armor, and magic penetrating weapons can be shaped from it. As a consequence, the ruler kingdom/empire will spread the use of its currency over its sphere of influence>alternative currency/commodity can be anything else with magical properties e.g. gold is present, but not the most valuable, as it only has a property of magnifying magical effect enchanted on them. Silver can be your typical bane against creature type. Crystalline things can be soul trapping, magic absorbing, deflecting, etc properties, so tools/artifacts can be shaped off of them.>magic is highly specific, as opposed to universal. A spell that stuns Orcs will not work on any other creature type, and will have diminished/no effect over Half-orcs etc>Spells are difficult to learn: literacy was a seldom thing in medieval times, so it magic requires the ability to read/reason then it would be still rate. Don't forget, even in our modern world, you have all the knowledge at your hand vie the www, yet most people choose to be retards.>explanation on why certain feats can't be achieved by magic: why would you invent a spell, that requires your time (limited lifespan) and other possible resources, that would do such a mundane thing like....cont.
>>66209411Are you still there?
>>66209411cont.>... like mopping, sweeping the floor etc. You can have free labor (slaves, automatons) that can do the job. Like in real world, the most prevalent magical things will be the most useful/versatile things possible.>supply side limitation is having just a few spellcasters per region. Either cause its rare (innate ability, miracle, etc), or cause of organizational secrecy (being a potent power, users obviously tend to hide it/accumulate power).Side notes:>magic being forbidden is a stupid cliché meme. Mundane folks wouldn't be able to limit it anyway, and you should be way better off trying to get as many spellcasters as you can for your own good. Kings and rulers would do anything just to get their hands on any spellcasters, even if your universe have only one magical spell, like clairvoyance, etc...>magic should have equivalent exhanges: you can't just achieve something huge without paying its "cost" like souls, life, servitude, etc...yepp Im still here
>>66150590FMA alchemists are also almost exclusively supervised by the state itself, and more than that, are agents on their behalf.Imagine if 95% of wizards in the setting were bureaucrats and military officials.
>>66150341That mostly depends on the level of verisimilitude the setting in question wants to engage in. Some play pretty fast and loose with things, and I'd argue that's fine, so long as they remain consistent with it.
>>66210288>Imagine if 95% of wizards in the setting were bureaucrats and military officials.I would like to see that.
>>66162541>>66170238That's either Ars Magicka or Mage: the Ascension (and in Mage it's almost definitely the Technocracy's Syndicate who'll slap your shit, although they'll do much worse than that).
>>66210219No problem. If you'd specify more parameters mainly in accordance with my domains in>>66209411then I could further clarify on these things. I'm an economist geek so I had plenty of time to mull over these topics, in fact I'm writing one of my own universe (primarily for a crpg game, BG2 style) and I have plenty of more guidelines/tips. Btw its also important to name your primary medium e.g. novel, video game, as it matters a lot, though you must have a firm base for your universe in any case.
>>66206084Pretty much all of them.
>>66211366Were any particularly obsessed?
>>66150519Example: Gold-pressed Latinum.
Bumper cars are fun!
>>66150341Precious metals are considered perfect and pure. Nothing perfect can exist in our world except by God's grace. Therefore, even magic cannot make gold out of thin air.
>>66199580You ever see in school one of those girls that was into nerdy stuff, she'd usually have about 2-3 lonely, nerdy autists around her at almost any given time? That's a beta orbiter. A person too insecure and unconfident to actually confess or express their feelings so they resign to being yes-men, following them around, and just being unable to take a hint.
>>66217418Oh, thanks, I was familiar with the idea, just not the term.
>>66211973Pretty much all of them, yeah.
>>66150341Currency is based around magically imbued stones, they are naturally occurring but very hard to replicate and would require equivalent magic to produce them. Any counterfeiting operations would need to kill people and steal their magic to enchant the fakes, which isn't very profitable.
>>66150341For starters, most systems gameify magic, and more specifically learning magic, to the point where it seems trivial. If you really go through the lore in D&D, most low level spells are a huge chore to learn, and I can only assume higher level ones are a Herculean mess. Add to that the fact that in older editions making magic items for laypeople to use requires spending no small amount of XP (I can't even imagine what that is supposed to represent) and magic is, in point of fact, not that easy to leverage for economic profit. If anything, it's a tribute to the low quality of D&D's magic mechanics that you (rightly) have the impression that you do.
>>66216430Ok, so why aren't clerics using their divinely gifted magic to ruin the economy?
"Grumble grumble stupid new laws banning transmutation of elements to create gold, stupid viziers. Fine. I'll do it the old fashioned way."Divination: Locate gold ore.Teleport to locationSummon Earth elemental'Hey Chunky, dive down about 400' and bring up as much gold as you can."Profit
>>66219312Is that D&D?
>>66219312A wizard capable of these spells has no problem with finances anyway
>>66211973well, i mean, there was a specific culture that's literally the source of all /pol/ that was obsessed with it's opressed class' wealth. so much so that asll the gold thyey got from them is considred HIGHLY ILLEGAL to own except from governments.
>>66150341It would be broken.
>>66221621More details, please.
>>66219101How would you fix the mechanics?
>>66219125Because their god(s) told them no
>>66224088But why wouldn't some evil god of chaos say yes? It'd help disrupt the economy and cause all sorts of problems.
>>66224111Maybe such magic is the domain of a god who knows better. But hey, if you want to make an evil economy wrecking deity part of your setting go for it, could be an interesting reason to launch and inquisition.
>>66224129That does sound like a good plot hook...
>>66210392That does sound like an interesting idea. I wonder about the other 5%...
>>66150341Most fantasy settings use hard currencies anyway. There's not much you can do to fuck that kind of economy up. Introducing a ton of new gold could momentarily cause some local price fluctuations, but at some point it'd get turned into a chalice or some shit and then be out of the economy until it gets looted in a dungeon.The economics don't really make sense because they're absolutely fiat rather than based in a fiat currency.
>>66150590or just play RIFTS
>>66165232>Oof, Yikes, Cringe
>>66229506Are those pride flags?
>>66165232>The art vastly improves over the comic run.
>>66234014Did we ask about that?
Did someone say ECONOMICS
in my setting:>base magic (i.e. magic that doesn't take a lifetime to learn) can't create shit out of thin air>magic can't build houses, till the fields, or sow the seeds>magic can't force men to build, hunt, fight, or work>magic can't feed everybody>by the time you're magically powerful enough to be able to affect the economy you wouldn't even give a shit about the economy anymoreeven with transmutation or world altering magic, people still need services performed, people still need to eat, people still want luxuries, people still need homes, and the government still has to function/provide rightful amenities/maintain a power hierarchy to keep order - that's where jobs and taxes and supply/demand come in, and that's where all the other intricacies of economics come in
>>66236550Is Maou Maoyuu Yuusha even getting serialized? Last time I checked, there weren't any updates in the last two years anywhere.
>>66150341Oh shit Time to take the GOD EMPEROR OF MANKIND Pill !!!!!!!!!!!11
>>66238007>Is Maou Maoyuu Yuusha even getting serialized?Which version you talking about?
>>66238470Anon, there's 5 of them
>>66238521Well fuck, guess I've been reading the wrong one.
>>66184814I guess at some point everyone starts doing it and then it's only good for whoever is on top, leading the others to build battlefleets to carve a place in the sun for themselves and before you know it lots of people are fucking dead and the world economy is in the shitter. But honestly I know neither history nor economics so I'm just making shit up.
>>66232270Nonsense. its the flag of racial pride.Every race in its own place. Largely separate and prosperous.
>>66239045What are the races?
>>66215215It's the international currency used in Star Trek. Latinum is a metalic liquid that for some reason can't be made using a replicator. It's encapsulated in gold because gold in non-reactive and basically worthless as currency (since it can be replicated).By using a finite and uncounterfeitable substance the currency is resistant to fiat devaluation and inflation.
>in order to develop ability for using magic one must cast aside all material desire but the most base necessities thus wizards usually don't care about money, currency, valuable goods and other luxuries (and if they do they can get them without interacting with economy too much)>on the other hand because they are so divorced from average non-magic-using person who still operates within the framework of socioeconomic reality, wizards tend to from time to time cause economic meltdowns on local scale purely due to accident (flooding the market with valuable goods, opening up new trade routes, causing rapid technological development)the only reason why magic and economics should intersect is if magic is common place in society in which place you can just use existing economic theories and systems to develop a mana battery currency (crystals, gems, metals) or somethingotherwise magic SHOULD fuck your economy up from time to time if it is rare, it adds conflict and makes for an interesting setting
>>66244706Any service intersects with economics. The rarer and more difficult and/or useful the service the more that can be charged for it. Why do you think hookers charge for sex when it can be had for free? How do you think doctors and lawyers can charge so much?
>>66236550Who are these two?
>>66150444What was supposed to be linked here?
>>66236550>potatoes and compassesMaou Maoyuu Yuusha had barely anything to do with economics.
>>66252209Is it any good?
>>66253389It's slow, it's chill, it's cute, there was nothing wrong with it but I still stopped watching it for some reason. Not even made the deliberate decision to drop it, just stopped and forgot about it. Still think it was good.
>>66249734same thread but earlier - it got gutted, for whatever reasoninstall 4chanx bruh
In my setting, dense materials are not very reactive to magic, so coins would most likely be made of stuff like lead.
>>66242839One race that really counts and the untermensch
>>66254182>lead is so much denser than goldthe only dense thing here is you, anonholy fuck, you can't even look up the periodic table to validate your dumb shit
>>6625418Thanks for pointing that out, osmium or iridium works better
>>66255102Link is broken.
>>66248094>not knowing Holo from Spice and Wolf
>>66257977Never read it.
>>66257977Is that a crime?
>>66261299No, they're just a jerk.
>>66257977I've never even heard of it.
>>66264981How would lurking on /tg/ lead to someone learning about an anime, again?
>>66237977Thanks for sharing.
>>66254185What does that mean?
>>66236550I get the characters, but now what it says below.
>>66276324They're economic terms.
>>66278226But how do they relate to the characters?
>>66150341Just use fiat currency lol
>>66280520Macroeconomics and agriculture leas to bounty (i.e. big stonking TITS) while microeconomics and marketing leaf to famine (i.e. teeny-weeny tiny tits).