>The party wants to invent steam engine, airships, tanks, firearms, flamethrowers, ironclads, wargolems, mustard gas, quickstart the industrial revolution...
How do I actually respond to this though? Just saying "the laws of physics in this world are different, deal with it fag" feels like a cop out answer.
Make them design and build a steam engine in front of you, from scratch with no references. If they successfully do it then you can let them do it in game.
>>65732915Make each invention a quest in itself, to gather the materials, draft the blueprints, and recruit the labor needed for prototyping and testing.
Congratulations, you have succeeded in kickstarting the industrial revolution! Unfortunately, this means that your characters are no longer special nor particularly powerful, as the means of violence has been widely distributed thanks to technology. Have fun living the life of a grunt and hoping a stray bullet doesn't kill you!
>>65732915Just tell them the characters don't know how to do any of that shit, nor have even the barest frame of reference to work from. Even if they did, most of the precision tools required to make the things they want to make have to be invented first. You can, if you like, say "sure, your characters spend their entire life devoted to invention and industry" and let them do that, but their current characters have all perished or retired so game over.
>>65732896True story. GM once said that everything is possible with intelligence (it was a medieval setting). I asked, can I invent the
>>65732896>>65732915Usually my response is something to the effect of>Sure but by the time you've got a working prototype done the big bad will have made significant leaps and bounds
>>65732993(2/2) laser gundam, then? He said sure, but the chance is 1%. I tried and successfully rolled 10 twice in a row on d10, believe it or not. GM said fine, you invented it, but it's harmless, like a lasertag. The end.
>>65732896The Harpers swoop in and slaughter them all.
>>65732896Use the "Terry Pratchett" defense to put a stop to them. Merely create a god that feels advanced tech like this is a heresy and zap them with lightning bolts and meteor strikes when they commit these kinds of sins.
The IRL industrial revolution was created by a combination of factors: European domination of trade networks, growth of interstitial organizations under the umbrella of absolutism (cities, free peasant laborers, an end to serfdom), capital acquired from overseas plunder, and thousands and thousands of nameless craftsmen scientists and engineers. 4 people can't create the conditions for that shit.
The chemical, metal, and mining industry wouldn't be developed enough. Even bringing the Bessemer process wouldn't mean much if you can't mine enough iron and coal.Even something as simple as a bicycle is pointless unless you have vulcanized rubber, which requires both a chemical industry and rubber plantations.
>>65732915Guns didn't just happen. People didn't look at potassium nitrate and go 'whoa, hang the FUCK on, we could propel small, hard lumps of metal with this!'. The existence of explosives in general is a fluke. The chinese monk/philosophers/whatevers that discovered the prototype of gunpowder were alchemists that were trying to do something else entirely.ESPECIALLY when you've got people who can make, say, wands of Magic Missile, the whole idea of most munitions seems redundant, and even the idea of airships was barely a flash in the pan in earth history.Basically, John Smith and Jebediah Wesson didn't slave away in a cellar somewhere inventing the colt navy pistol. The existence of all modern technology is the result of literal CENTURIES of incidental scientific interaction.
>>65733060Where the fuck did you learn history? That's not how it happened at all.
>>65732915Financing, and or the test of the stuff neede simply isn't there. Consider that Steam power was independently "discovered" a bunch of times throughout history, as far back as the ancient romans. It lead to fuck all though, because that's all that it could do. Consider the following: you need a lot of coal or charcoal to feed a boiler. Is coal currently cheap enough to feed such a machine at a financially feasible rate? Then consider the boiler. The whole point is to keep steam at high pressure. Is metallurgy advanced enough to have metal strong enough to withstand the pressure, but still light enough to be moved by the steam power it produces? Once again, is the metal affordable enough to make such a machine accessible and profitable? Third is, is the rest of the infrastructure possible? Laying down rails for trains and shit will take a shit ton of steel and wood. The same applies to firearms mostly. The first cannons were shaped like vases because the metal needed to be extra thick to withstand the explosion of the gunpowder. For more complex shit like ironclads, you have both problems of getting enough steel and strong enough steel to make a boiler, as well as enough steel and strong enough steel to make the cannons, and then even more to make the armor plates. Essentially, even if you sent a man back in time with detailed plans to make these things, you need to change the whole world to make those things viable.
>>65732896>party wants to be skypirates
>>65733126The period between the first guns and cheap interchangeable parts made for some AMAZINGLY pieces. Think.... if all the rich dicks used to commissioning craftsmen to make statues and portaits and classical music... but making guns instead. Really clever shit that was AMAZING for it's time. But expensive, fragile, and unsuitable for warfare.
>>65732937Do you make your players prove they can masterfully use a weapon in real life before their character gains proficiency?
>>65733037Which book was that?
>>65733241I think this is a GREAT premise for a youtube series or a little event thing at gencon. Let's see how well nerds can attack three targets in 6 seconds. Or how many arrows they can fire. Or see if they can pick a simple 1700's era lock. Or how far they can move in 6 seconds without going above X decibals on a sensor. or how much gear they can physically lift. Or see how well they can barter the price of an ale. STAT YOURSELF.
>>65732915In order of most to least shitty:Option 1) Actually talk to your player and get on the same page about what you want the game to be aboutOption 2) Make the laws of physics different in an interesting way that actually expands them game. eg. a conventional steam engine is impossible, but maybe the players can achieve something similar by capturing a fire and water elemental and containing them with some sort of sufficiently enchanted vessel.Option 3) Make them go through all the boring steps involved in making modern technology. If getting together the things for modern metallurgy doesn't stop them then collecting piss to make gunpowder probably will.
>>65733301I've read them all and they all kind of run together. I can't answer that for you.
>>65732896>It's the party's quest to stop an antagonist who is trying to do thisOne of my favorite games we played.
>>65733228>>65733126>>65732915Just bust our reality even harder than they are trying. In real life the concept of something is nowhere close to being able to implement it.It's like that weirdo who spamming the ancient Greek steam engine and saying "they didn't know what the could have done with it". Did you know that some guy in the 1600s had the idea of using a simple steam engine to power boats and petitioned the Spanish courts for the funds to attempt it? The results are lost to time, but it's pretty easy to assume that he built one and it was really shitty considering they used wind technology for the next ~200 years.Your players would need to show that their character came upon these conclusion themselves, that they are feasible, and they can afford it. The easiest tech to make would be a musket and that isn't simple and in almost every system most characters would be more dangerous with anything else.
>>65732896how do they intend to build the infrastructure required? like in most high fantasy lacks the ability to forge out large pieces of steel let alone produce the iron and coke required to crucible forge steel.. their need to be national sized supply chains to make the material required. Its unfeasible to build a steam furnace with just bog iron let alone make Bessemer steel to armor a tank.and its hard to get coal and iron from mines to production centers when every road is lousy with bandits and shit. and you need a metropolis capable of supporting factories for that you need stable foods supply and almost a million people. if they can meet and exceed these real challenges then by all means let them kick start the industrial revolution
>fantasy setting has magic and groups like elves and dwarves>making things is too much of a stretch because they aren't doing it through the east indian company and the london port authoritoryLike why do you need to mine for coal when you can use alternatives like a dragon? If anything chances are they're thinking too small.
>>65733078First bicycle used a wooden wheel IIRC.
>>65732896And that is a bad thing because?Make them crack open text books, figure out logistics and all that. Make them earn their industrialist position while fending off the hordes of the dark lord factorio style. Shit sounds fun as fuck.
>>65733665Yeah and it was shitty because of that. Just imagine riding a bycicle that's got wooden wheels down a cobblestone road.
>>65732896>>65732915>They instantly become targets of every other city-state, who fearing open war send clandestine operatives.>assassins to attack NPCs they need>heavies to deny and destroy key locations like the forge and the alchemy lab they were using>thieves to steal equipment they need>noncombatant saboteurs to alter blueprints and corrupt materials>merchants to purposely sell them booby-trapped ingredients>lawyers to outlaw what the PCs are doing on the pretext of royal prerogative on resources>churchmen to outlaw what the PCs are doing on the pretext of witchcraft>burgers to outlaw what the PCs are doing by interdicting their supplies
>>65733301Technological Advancement is an affront unto Nuggin.
>>65733655>being this puerile about infrastructureIndividual trading companies made the industrial revolution happen; scientific innovation is the result of a much more complicated process, and while the two helped each other along, they were very much different things. Again: you've already got wands of magic missile. These things kill your average orc or goblin or human in a few seconds. Start digging your fingers in and twisting with the RAW around UMD, and suddenly you've got gatling wand arrays. Why the hell would you WANT a gun?Necessity is, while not the only mother of invention, certainly one of the many sparks required. The leap between gunpowder and guns took... three hundred years, I think? It also involved a lot of nothing, fireworks, and really shitty almost-cannons in the middle. The same can be said of basically every single major technological advance... ever, really.
>>65733803Also, and this is important: gunpowder was invented once.Ever.Consider how invested in murdering eachother we are as a species, how obsessed we are at changing our landscape, and we only ever managed to come up with gunpowder ONCE. This wasn't a 'someone invented it, word spread quickly, everyone had gunpowder'. It was created by accident in China, and took hundreds of years to spread to the rest of the world, and in that time no one else hit on the same idea.inb4 greek fire, fire and explosives are wildly different things.
This is what I don't get every time one of these threads pops up:Why do you even allow your players to use their IRL meta-knowledge to make in-game decisions in the first place? Saying "Oh, I know that guns exist in real life so I want a quest to invent them in game." Is such an obvious meta-game that I would just tell them no, to their face, and move on. If they don't like it, tough shit. Your character knows what your character knows, having grown up in some shitty medieval-esque fantasy world.Stop letting your players use their vast first world knowledge of basic physics and technology to influence their portrayals of characters that are literal dirt peasants.
>>65733848That is, in fact, the argument that most people in the thread are making, just with more words.
>>65733862The arguments in this thread are some version of "make them work for it." I am not saying that at all. I am saying that you should just tell them no. Full stop. When they say "Can I invent X, Y, and Z?" You say. "No, under no conditions whatsoever can you invent X, Y, OR Z."
>>65732896>>65732915The main issue actually is not realyl in the tech itself, but the viablity of its widespread applicability.The Romans had access to plenty of coal and had some basic steam engines prototypes already, but that was not enough to kickstart the industrial revolution 1000 years early: they did not have the tech to produce the steel needed, they did not have the infrastructure to fuel mechanized industry, they did not have the transport capacity and logistics to handle mass production (and distribution). They did not have the population and manpower...But the biggest issue is that, simply, they did not need it. The industrial revolution happened in a period where the early capitalist class was already pretty powerful and was able to force the state to do their bidding, while the supposedly elite (the nobility) wwas just a shadow of itself. Meanwhile the Roman empire had a very strong elite made of slavers and plantation owners (which are not interested in the slightest in industrialization, see American civil war), they had a high level of urbanization and commerce, but 95% of shit was produced on location, with very few (albeit impressive) exceptions like the city of Rome itself.So how do you solve the problem? You don't, there is no need, no pre-industrial civilization is going to be able to mass manufacture any modern invention, so their contribution will be limited to the prototype the players manage to build.
>>65733862>>65733887Also, for clarification, my reasoning for this is not "because inventions are hard." or "because they take too long" like other people are saying. My reasoning is that when the MOTIVATION for wanting to do something in-game comes from something which is SO far outside the game that it's literally irrelevant, it's not something that should go in the game. I view the very notion of even WANTING to invent those things as a meta-game, and any "sparks" or "inspiration" that their character has to invent something that we all know is some 20th century tech, it's meta-gaming through and through.
>>65733903Also good luck making anything more complicated than a basic bombard. People often underestimate the importance of iron and steel lavoration techniques. The famous Roman lorica segmentata existed because they were not capable of forging large sheets of iron, like the late Medieval smiths could. Good luck building a tank with that, or even a basic engine.
>>65732896I've played in a campaign where the villain was doing this. With some help from the Gods and the Elemental Courts, we made it so that gunpowder would no longer explode and electricity couldn't be generated.Bam, no more technological advancement, ever.
>>65733929> lavoration meant to say manufacturing
>>65733937So no more fire and no more neurological activity. Good job killing off humanity.
>>65733952>Electricity cannot be generated, so net charges are always 0>implying that electrons can't be freed from their bound states inside atomsForget humanity, all chemistry is nonfunctional.
>>65732896Well, it can be a very good quest in itself.
>>65732896Remember them they don't have OOC knowledge of the real world. Wanting to make everything about real life is a sign of lack of imagination.
>>65732896Anyone who tries to “invent guns” should be immediately banned from your game.I’m not joking. This will DRAMATICALLY improve your table. No good player has ever, out of context, tried to “invent guns”. Not fucking one.
>>65733913>REEE METAIf you're players haven't read the DM books they're retards. Anyone with a brain metagames.
>>65733841I think most people have this incorrect perception in general.A shitload of chemistry is basically "Wait, what the fuck did I just synthesize?"Even in modern day.Fuck, the guy who invented LSD had no fucking clue what he'd created, for example, and accidentally exposed himself to 100 times the normal dose in his lab.He spent the night there, freaking the fuck out.
>>65733952I'm not sure where you're getting this. Gunpowder no longer explodes, not 'combustion no longer happens for all materials'. And electricity elementals only control electricity outside of the human body. Spirits of health handle nervoud processes.It's a fantasy world. Germ theory doesn't exist. Nobles are born better than mere mortals. It's not a place for "Well, acktually..." scientific nitpicking, because science is nothing compared to magic.In fact, atoms don't exist. Neither do electrons.
>>65732896>>65732915You can give them quests for building that sort of stuff, and after planning it out, gathering the necessary components, making the arrangements for manufacture and testing it they get the intended result, and it's up there for their use, but it eds up as a situational if useful thing, and doesn't really catch on. >after plundering an abandoned monastery for a mad monk's blueprints of a magic-powered steam engine, stealing the essential magical salts that power it and paying a fuckton of money for the smith to assemble it, they end up with a functional primitive steam engine that is eagerly bought by a local lord for his silver mines for a tidy sum that lands them a decent profit, but eventually the guy grumbles that even though it is indeed significantly better than pushing carts with muscle power, it has much higher maintenance cost than he anticipated and it's not making the enterprice as profitable as he hoped it would. The party can visit the mines and see that the layout has changed to accommodate for the locomotive, there are semi-literate engineers working on the engine maintenance and miners talking about the invention ("- Now that thing, that is something! Never though I'd see something like that in my entire life!", "It's kinda scary though", "DEY TUG EEUR JEEEBS!"). They gain some fame among the nobility and craftsmen in the area as the masterful tinkerers (with some questioning them as frauds or thiefs). Maybe some other power-that-be hires them thanks to that fame to build something else or solve some mechanical problem that requires more questing. Maybe they manage to sell the design in two or three more places and make some more money and local changes, but the world largely remains the same - it would take decades upon decades and many more inventions to put in a real dent, and most places are not interested in the locomotive anyway.
>>65734115this confirms my theory that chemists are mad scientists by nature.Or maybe it's some kind of chemical they are all administered at the end of the first year of university that turns them all into the stereotypical "FOR SCIENCE" scientist.>>65734138It was a joke anon. I wasn't trying to be the guy that brings a physics book to a ttRPG table.
>>65734105t. Wants to make people run his fanfic Fuck that noise. Any games like that need to be derailed with no survivors.
>>65734159Well, Organic Chemistry has that fun element of not being really that exact for a science. You just sort of go "Eh, good enough."Which can often lead to some really hilarious/unfortunate results.For example...
>>65734172Yeah, my fanfic is having players that aren’t fucking retards. Sorry you had to get banned Todd.
>>65732915>"the laws of physics in this world are different, deal with it fag" this but then give them alternative technology they can develop based on those different laws that fit the the setting better.
>>65734114Nothing wrong with KNOWING stuff outside of what your character knows. When I DM I like to tell my players ahead of time what I intend to do and why, because it makes the narration of the story better and it makes the roleplaying go more smoothly. But there is a big huge difference between KNOWING about something and meta gaming.Adding guns into a fantasy world, just because you like guns in real life, is the second thing.
>>65734190For those who don't want to try and parse a shitload of chemistry>The sensitivity of C2N14 is beyond our capabilies of measurment. The smallest possible loadings in shock and friction tests led to explosive decomposition. It must be stated that the shock and friction sensitivity of 1 no doubt lies well under the limits of 0.25J in impact and 1N in friction sensitivity that can be experimentally determinedOr, in other words, C2N14 is so fucking explosive that we can't even measure how explosive it is, because shining light on it produces more than enough energy for it to explode.
>>65734212if you can't even look at it without it exploding, how do we know it exists?
>>65734195>Actually being a butthurt railroaderThere's a reason they say a no game is better than a bad one.
>>65734212Dude that's fucken neat>>65734235Also this.
>>65734235Darkvision.Before the elves appeared, we belived that sometimes shining light around would just cause random explosions.Now the elves themselves raise all sort of questions, but THIS ONE, they solved it.
>>65734235Because, somehow, they managed to get some data on it before it decomposed. While the paper explains how, it's still kind of crazy. The fun thing though is it's very likely that that 3 page paper is the entire extent of C2N14's data for basically forever, given it's nature. They invented a compound that they can do nothing with, because it's too unstable to actually do anything with. Except blowing up your lab equipment.
>>65734300That sounds like something wizards would do.
>>65734321> For safety reasons, only a small number of crystals were measured (the compound decomposes explosively upon irradiation by a Nd:YAG laser with an intensity of only 150 mW!)I'm not joking about light blowing it up.
>>65734339To be honest that's not surprising>high heat of formation>not a single stable bond
>>65733841gunpowder is not an explosive, there are a number of things various cultures invented that could have led to guns as we know them, but they were hampered by poor material science at the time, being worse than gunpowder, other societal factors, or some combination thereof
"It's not time yet". And then introduce the concept of fucking with time and shit. To simulate this, fuck the nearest guy in the ass with a cactus.
>First arc : the forgesThe party has to clear out the old dwarven forges under the Sumber Hills as a base for this endeavour. Its new inhabitants won't be thrilled.>Second arc : allies and henchmenThe party will have to make tough choices to get the wealthiest patrons, the best craftmen and the smartest sages. But it will sure attract a lot of unwanted attention>Third arc : forbidden powerResearch is grinding to an halt. Mundane craft is simply not advanced enough to do what the heroes want. It's time for them to step up and look for alternatives. Dragon scale, spider silk cables, mithril, orbs of pure elemental power. They will have to harness the most dangerous legendary foes to usher a new age of dominance over the worldThen, next campaign, you got a urban magitec setting based on your player actions.
For a stereotypical low-tech high magic dungeon crawler, I'd just say no. For a sandbox where the players are expected to have some land of their own, I'd be disappointed if they didn't try to Advance the Setting and just settled for going out and killing things then spending the rest of the getting their dicks sucked. Or you can just play a setting that has that shit already and avoid the problem from the beginningOne thing that I think is overlooked in favor of muh gums and muh trains: mechanized farm equipment, like reapers and seed drills. Think less James Cugnot or Sam Colt, and more Obed Hussey or Cyrus McCormick. Or hell, even some basic agricultural science like crop rotation. They save labor and time, allowing for easier food surpluses for the common man. Everybody (except maybe monks, but there's no pleasing them) likes food.
>>65734155Same with the most things: >they manage to build a primitive cannon that happens to be, when used along with other weapons, very useful during a siege and helps them achieve a victory that would otherwise seem unlikely, but it kinda happened to explode ass it was laying shots on the position of the enemy's desperate last stand. Probably overheating. Commanders are reluctant to adopt it due outrageous costs and the whole EXPLOSION thing, but hey - if another massive siege happens, who knows, maybe one of the sides will be desperate enough to commission them for another one.>an ironclad vessel is a huge hit with the Royal Navy, and the King even declares the lavishly decorated lumbering behemoth as his personal flagship. But the admirals point out that, while nearly invulnerable and priceless for defending the port cities and coastlines, it's impossible to deploy overseas. Etc etc
>>65732896>>65732915I point out while the players might possess the intelligence to create such things they lack materials and resources and must either painstakingly create the tools and machinery required by hand just to make the machinery, which I will remind them will cost a lot of time and even more moneh...Or they can accept investors and/or contract people who have the tools and skills already but by the power of being a GM, all these people have government who will get first dibs.I've actually done this since one of my players wanted to invent a legit revolver, and guess what? The likely way he's going to get it is needing to survive an assassin wielding one.
>>65733709And then imagine some dude seeing it and saying "I bet that would work better with a leather facing on it." Then some other dude sees that one and thinks "I bet that would work even better if drove hob nails through the leather and used it on sod."Then some smart guy (probably a dwarf) sees it and realizes the gearing system they use in the foundry to shift the giant crucible of molten steel could be adapted to improve the mechanical advantage of the pedals. Then some dude (probably a bard) just back from Kara-Tur or Maztica or whatever other tropical place that could pass for India that world has, sees that one and realizes that if he coats the wheel rims with rubber tree sap, it'll make for a smoother ride.This is basically the process that got us from the shitty, wooden wheeled foot bike to 30-speed racing bikes with pneumatic tires that weigh 4 fucking ounces.
>>65732896Beat them to the punch by throwing them into a fantasy WWI campaign.
>>65732896I mean, that's more or less the entire purpose of the Artificer class.
>>65733929Fairly advanced cannon were built before high quality iron could be manufactured in job lots.>brass cannon>wire wrapped brass cannonHell, a trebuchet is more complex than any cannon designed before the 1500's.>>65734474>gunpowder is not an explosiveDid the definition of explosive change recently?>>65734579I want to game with you so bad.
>>65733301I think it's just generally a concept that pops up a few times. There still ends up being technological advancement, the gods would just really rather there wasn't.
>>65734579That sounds great. If my players wanted to do something like this I'd be down.
>>65735211You mean other than the gods/goddesses that come into existence as a result of and/or who cause it? Like the goddess of trains from Raising Steam?
>The God of War rushes to adopt gunpowder, cannons and muskets as his new profile and favored weaponry.
>>65732915>>65732896Gods drop meteor on them.
>>65735317>rocks fall, technology dies
>>65733903>they did not have the transport capacity and logistics to handle mass production (and distribution)Yet they mass produced and distributed standartised weapns and armor for hundreds of thousands of soldiers. Your ignorace of actual history is astounding.
>>65732896Ask them to justify why their characters would do so, how they go about it, and how they gain the knowledge to form those objects/materials
>>65734674>Or hell, even some basic agricultural science like crop rotation.Crop rotation has been common knowledge among farming specialists since the early Bronze Age at the least. It's just that financial and organization limitations forced most of the farming into extensive approach (and thus monoculture, which is short-term cheaper in every way) until the mid XX century. Most land owners didn't give two shits about the threat of land drain over the decades to come in the face of more pressing demands, until the drain did hit. Plus, a huge amount of agriculture depended on exploiting blacksoil, floodplains and fire-fallow, which are not dependent on rotation.Any typical medieval agricultural peasant would now that many consecutively stable harvests on regular soils requires rotation (even if he doen't know exactly why does it help), but the orders from above, their own financial instability and lack of organization between villagers prevents from implementing it beyond small gardens they plant to feed themselves, and often not even that.
>>65735350I find that the first time they all get horribly maimed in a steam explosion to be a good demotivator.
>>65732896>what is Ebberon
>>65732896Jokes on them; Drow Sky Pilots in steam-powered magitech power armour already exist in the setting.I'm not even kidding. They made a whole lot of airships to conquer the surface after a deal was brokered with the Modron
>>65735362I just vomited a little.
>>65732896How does one Immanentise an Eschatron?
>>65735362Now this is FREAKING EPIC
>>65735219>>65735185I mean, it's fairly easy to build something interesting as a GM if players have already an ingame goal.Plus, it's something that can be tailored to fit in a broader campaignst again a big bad. It can adapt to any player in the group. Maybe they will try to get power from their tools from the gods themselves, maybe from the elemental planes, maybe from necromancy. Maybe they have to fight the demons, with demons of their own.
>>65732896OK>gather all the materials>develop the necessary metalworking skills>describe the assembling processYou won't mind if your hometowns are razed in the meantime because you weren't there to stop it, will you?
>>65735299>Another gods claims steam as his domain >The gods begin to fight over who controls what.>Players cause Ragnarog.
>>65735342>Yet they mass produced and distributed standartised weapns and armor for hundreds of thousands of soldiers. Your ignorace of actual history is astounding.Yeah such mass production that there was no standardized uniform or armamets.
>>65733025This is unironically the point of those otherwise worthless cunts.
>>65732915Make them roll until it fails and explode everything to the nth degree
>>65733469And fusion is impractical because it's "shitty" isn't it
>>65732896Make it a quest. Let them find and abuse a wish to seed the world with More inspired thinkers then there are luddites to stop them. Take a biggs thinky and imagine how your bog standard fantasy setting might HELP industry.Then pull a little from this faggot >>65732952 and now you have a world where wizards are outsourcing violence because they scarcely need to cast anything to empower goons and the hell of mass infantry gun and trench war is less trouble to them personally then epic wizard duels across the shadow realm or whatever
>>65734300Orbital lab could run it
>>65732937SpbpUnless one of their backstories was "inventor" they don't even know what any of those things are. They are using explicitly out of character meta knowledge to attempt to break the setting without putting in the legwork.The only recourse is to prove to them such things aren't simple inventions.
>>65733523Magical forges. Dwarves can by hand produce steel of that quality because dwarf.
>>65734115>He spent the night there, freaking the fuck out.Um. No, he didn't. He rode his bike home and had a glorious, as well as terrifying, time. The good doc also manufactured it years before he re-synthesized it and had his chemical to skin contact. He had been working on a cure for the common cold.The synchronicity here is that you posted the comment on the anniversary of the first, and accidental, trip.
>>65732915>Alright>roll a few times to see how their inventing and tinkering goes, things like breakthroughs and set-backs etc"You spend the majority of the rest of your lives slowly planning, building, re-building and forging these new wonders. Before you can bring your long worked for devices to the world, the big bad discovers your works and uses them to enhance his army, his slow march is now assisted by engines of war more terrible than anything you previously thought possible as minds far darker than yours take the basis of your work and begin to build. You're thrown into the dungeons of his growing empire, forced to tinker until death time to roll some new characters guys."
>>65735342But they didn't mass produce it. Their idea of "mass production" was a bunch of smiths tasked to make the same general thing, but each smith's product varied widely.
>>65734190>Well, Organic Chemistry has that fun element of not being really that exact for a science.You just sort of go "Eh, good enough.">he actually thinks that other scientific disciplines are any differentIt makes my kek become the BIG KEK.
>>65735342>standartised weapns and armor for hundreds of thousands of soldiersThey were nowhere near standardised in the sense you think about standardisation. They merely looked alike.
>>65733132He is a structuralist. The only thing he failed to mention was the coal deposits in England, which made mining the fuel for the industrial revolution easy.
>>65733203>needing to burn coal>when there are millions of way to create a neverending fire hotter than hell itselfThere is many ways to reinvent technology in a fantasy setting.
>>65732915Just ask your players to invent FTL travel, futuristic nanomachines and the cure to cancer.What? They're not smart enough/it would take decades of research?Same goes for their characters and steam engines, then.
>>65732896This wasn't what we agreed that the campaign would be about. Lets do this after the main quest if you still want to do it with this party, kay'?
>>65735362One thing that I never got with the Modrons, is the fact that wouldn't they naturally have the best equipment that they could planarly yank for themselves the way the Inevitables will bring out a gattling gun if that's what they need for the job? Why are they stuck with pikes and crossbows?
>>65736475>rediscovering FTL travel isn't one of his long-term plot pointsget on my space opera level
>>65732896Once they do and actually use it every noble that hears is going to send spys to attempt to steal the blueprints. If they invent mustard gas it'll eventually be used in all the wars. If they invent explosives then the bbeg blows up a major shipping yard severely limiting trade. Just have it come back to bite them in the ass
>>65732896This is pretty much shitplaying at this point.All this desire is, is the standard "you cant tell me what to do, I'll ignore the themes of the game!" BS that almost all contrarian D&D players mistake for wit and interest.Every group has this idea, every group thinks this idea is cool and not lame. It's lame.
>>65732896>Immanetizing The EschatonPlayers trying to invent shit in a game that's not built around that is annoying, but calling it the end of the fucking world seems a little dramatic
>>65732896Why do fat girls always make this same simpering face and crooked posture in photos?
>>65732896Steam engines were invented in ancient Greece. They were just useless for another 2000 year because supporting technology like machine parts and mass production of steel and coal wasn't around.
>>65732896Let them.Soon as they start mining for coal they;A) Awaken an Ancient Evil ie Balrog, DragonB) Piss off the local Dwarfs/Goblins/Other Tunnel Dwellers who kick their assesC) Cause a cave-in and everybody dies because none of the cunts thought to put support struts upJust like Tai-Chi, take their momentum and redirect it
>>65736719>crooked posture in photos?fat people tend to have shit posture due to a heavy frontload
>>65732896but why are they playing a presumably medieval or earlier fantasy game then when they want something between 18th-20th century?
>>65736898This. If the game involves somebody inventing a machine designed to bring about the end of the world, you should be playing a ruleset that supports pulp or steampunk. That's where that shit belongs, and rules written for it already support that kind of stuff.
>>65736898Why are you running a medieval fantasy game for people who want to invent things in the first place?
>>65732915The way I did it was through financing and resource gathering. Nobody has piles of prepared potassium nitrate lying around, you have to make it yourself. Likewise, nobody just has all the parts to a steam engine that doesn't exist, you're going to have to figure it out yourself. The blueprints are easy, the hard part is gathering the materials and crafting it yourself, commissioning pieces and parts along the way, or convincing a king that funding your project is the key to success. Guns however deserve a special mention, in that every crafty player has tried to make one at some point, so make sure to point out that, while the mechanics and materials of a gun are simple, the most difficult part of making one will always be the rifling, which is balls to the wall difficult to achieve without a rifling machine to ensure accuracy. Otherwise, your player is going to end up with a very overcomplicated grenade.
>>65737050>any unrifled firearm is an "overcomplicated grenade">implying there weren't six centuries of firearm use in warfare before the wide adoption of rifling>further implying all effective firearms have rifled barrels>and also that drilling a rifled barrel is even the most technically challenging part of manufacturing a hand-crafted gunnow, I've read some silly shit in my time, but this right here... damn, kid.
>>65735185no, gunpowder is just a fast burning compound, it does not combust faster than the speed of sound, this is not new at all
>>65735185The definition of explosive didn't change, it's just that people don't know as much as they think. Gubpowder doesn't explode, it deflagrates. Aka burns really fast, but not fast enough to count as exploding. If you want to know the technical distinction check Wikipedia. But gunpowder has never been an explosive, technically speaking.
>>65736719Does this count as fat?
>>65733241>Do you make your players prove they can masterfully use a weapon in real life before their character gains proficiency?There's a difference between character meta-knowledge and player meta-knowledge, anon. Stop pretending you don't understand that.OP, your group wants to use their personal out-of-character meta-knowledge as an in-game character attribute. What you need to do is what >>65732937 suggested: Rub their silly little noses in the fact that they don't know as much as they believe they do and they don't know anywhere near enough to do what they want to do.Have them design their steam engine in front of you. Don't let them put if off until the next session after they can do the research. Make them present the plans now and then hold them to those plans. Do the same with every other innovation and invention they want to introduce. Take gunpowder for example. It's pretty simple, right? It won't be.Tell them to write down, right now, and right in front of you the 3 ingredients and their correct proportions. Have them explain where they'll find the sulphur they'll need and how to produce it in the quantities required. Do the same with saltpeter too. Have them also tell you how they'll mix & grind the ingredients safely and in the amounts necessary. Again, require them to tell you right now and not after they've been able to do quick searches on their phones.Do the same thing with every other invention & innovation they're bleating about. Believe me, they've no fucking idea what is truly required to build & produce any of them. They want an airship? Do they realize the fabric needs to be doped? Or how to produce lifting gasses in the huge quantities required?Rub their noses in the fact that they know a few trivial and mostly inaccurate "facts" about the mechanisms and substance they want to build and produce. They think they can employ their own personal meta-knowledge, so let them fail due to their own personal ignorance.
>>65732915Make them do it with stuff they have access to. Want a rifle, blast rune + sling pellet + metal pipe
>>65737499i'm sure your imaginary group has lots of fun playing with you
>>65736721>Steam toys were invented in ancient Greece.FTFY.This is an example of the inaccurate "facts" that the OP's players believe will allow them to produce steam engines, gunpowder, and everything else.Heron's aeolipile is NOT a precursor to the steam engines eventually developed by Newcomen and Watt.
Change your alignments to Evil.
>>65732896Rocks fall everyone dies, start a new steampunk campaign where all this stuff already exists and these faggots aren't special
>>65737539Whatever you need to believe, skippy.
>>65737636fucking likewise larper
>>65732896Why not just play an interwar period game
>>65737499Ok so I can't invent gunpowder. However, for a setting that already has muskets, how difficult would it be to invent a crude revolver? IRL it took almost 4 centuries, but there doesn't really seem to be any big technological hurdles there. Not talking percussion cap fully encased bullets, just multiple chambers on one barrel.
>>65735342Non standardized mass production. Look what the romans did was impressive but you're over selling it.
>>65732896I know that guy, it's the most unoriginal, unimaginative cringey shit a player can ass pull. Just say NO and move on.
>>65737760Pepperboxes mate, much more feasible
>>65732896Have them watch James Burke's Connections. Then have them justify to you how they go from the current state of technology in your campaign to the state they want to take it without all of the "connections" outlined in the series.It's not like Newcomen looked at his watch and said "well, it's the mid 1700s, so I guess it's about time I invented the steam engine. I'd like to do that light-bulb thing, but no one's allowed to do that until the late 1800s or some shit. Oh well."No, there were 600 to 800 years of various inventions and innovations inspiring the next, tiny step along the line and Newcomen was just one of those tiny steps.Another example: it's not a coincidence that Guttenburg was a goldsmith. He had the tools and know-how necessary to make moveable type. He didn't even invent the press. It was just that before him, you had to carve out an entire wood-block for each page--something that's not very easy to do and wears out pretty quickly. Individual metal letters don't wear out so easily, and can be arranged and rearranged as needed to make each page.Again, make your players justify the steps.
>>65737760Four centuries to "invent" revolvers? What are pepperboxes, Puckle's Gun, etc., Alex. People began developing ways to more quickly reload firearms about 3 seconds after they developed firearms. If the setting already has muskets, it will already have guns with multiple barrels, revolving barrels, revolving load chambers, etc. which work with varying levels of success. What made revolvers "work" wasn't percussion caps or cartridges. Instead it was the machine tools and standardized measurements which allowed for interchangeable parts.Again and just like the OP's players, you know far less than you think you do.
If something like that happens talk to your player to see if they really want a steampunkish campaign, or if they actually want to do a giant technomagic manhattan project, or if they are merely doing this to be quirky. If they do this, maybe they want a goal, or amount to something beyond maintaining the status quo. It's something that can be used as a GM.Don't do passive aggressive shit like >>65737499. It's fucking cringey and autistic. Just tell them no.
>>65738008>It's fucking cringey and autistic.No. What's cringey and autistic is derailing an agreed upon medieval campaign by suddenly wanting to be Watt, Edison, Count Zeppelin, etc. Someone stupid enough to want to do that can't be handled by the DM saying no. They'll need their nose rubbed in their own ignorance so they'll never try that shit again.They can't be told. They need to be shown.
>you invent a steam engine >nobody cares except eccentric nobles who use it as a toy before getting bored and throwing it in a shedJust because your players can build something doesn't mean people will care or see a purpose in it. Or>your party builds a gun/steam engine/tank>it blows up because you forgot that the metallurgy and other technologies they took for granted weren't invented yetYou built a cannon. That's cool. Did you also invent precision tools and standardized measurements to repeat the process? What about gunpowder? Did you get the formula down so you don't kill yourself? No? Great, you've made a novelty.>I kick off the industrial revolution!Why do a bunch of feudal landlords with an army of slaves care?
>>65738100You're like those cringelords who froth at the mouth when they see anime.
>>65732915Call them faggots and then turn the campaign into a boring lab and workshop game where they work day and night to try and build cool stuff, only to get kidnapped by some lord or king to make weapons for the crown
>>65738100>Someone stupid enough to want to do that can't be handled by the DM saying noLet me guess: you don't play ttrpgs and haven't interacted with someone outside of your close family in person for months.People want to do this for reasons, but for simplicity we will narrow it down to 2 cases>they don't want to play your campaignThen talk to them, see if they want to switch games or campaigns, or maybe leave your group>they want to gain an edge in the campaignWell, it's a normal thing. Their character has an idea on how to make a boomstick with alchemical powder to get a mechanical or scenaristic advantage over their enemies. Let them work hard for it, looking for craftmen to make said boomstick, throw obstacles in their way, make it unreliable and expensive at first. What the fuck is wrong with you when you start blaming your players to setting themselves goals.
>>65732915Depending on the current tech level of the setting, your players would need to come up with a really, really, REALLY good reason for why any of their characters would even be able to formulate the barest concept of these things.It's like if I were to try and imagine how I might go about inventing an FTL wormhole technology that could maybe possibly be invented 10,000 years from now. The idea that it's even possible is so far outside my standard frame of reference that I would probably need to be actually insane to even bother devoting any time to thinking about it.
>>65738292It's fucking asinine to assert that those are the only two reason players may want to do this when there's clearly a whole host of other reasons.
>>65738292>Let me guessYou guessed wrong.>People want to do this for reasonsNo. People have excuses for derailing campaigns. Excuses aren't reasons.>>they don't want to play your campaignThey don't have to. As you yourself noted, all they to do need is talk about it. The campaign can be dropped or the player can be dropped. What shouldn't happen is a player or players purposely derailing or sabotaging the campaign instead of voicing their desires like any adult would.>>they want to gain an edge in the campaignThat's just an excuse. Campaigns and settings have boundaries. You can gain any edge you want within those boundaries. Changing the campaign in order to change the boundaries in order to gain an edge means you don't want to play in the campaign. Which brings us right back to not playing the campaign at all.>>Let them work hard for itWhich has been my suggestion from the first. Let them try and fail because even their out-of-character personal knowledge won't be enough to produce the inventions and innovations they believe are so simple.If you don't want to play in a campaign, if you no longer enjoy a campaign, then be an adult a speak up. Don't hint at the problem through derailment or sabotage. RPGs are collaborative. They're not single person exercises in Calvinball.
>>65732915>How do I actually respond to this though? Just saying "the laws of physics in this world are different, deal with it fag" feels like a cop out answer.Drop the game and play with people actually worth your time.
>>65733025So the harpers are the brotherhood of steel?
>>65738896>Don't hint at the problem through derailment or sabotage. RPGs are collaborative.Not even going to reply to the other points, since you nailed it in your own point. They are collaborative. They are asking you if they can do something in the world, if they can have their share of worldbuilding trough invention. Maybe you just want to tell your novel-like story with nice boundaries, in that case you tell them no, and offer them to leave the game if they don't like it. If you don't tell them no, do it well, not cockblocking them with OOC lack of knowledge.
GURPS has dedicated invention rules which require a character with great skill in his field in order to make anything truly new.
>>65732896No, and if the setting advanced it woudn't be in that direction.
>>65732896Flamethrowers and firearms are fine, so long as they have gunpowder already (Byzantines had flamethrowers).
>>65732915Holy fuck I just woke up and that's a lot of (you)s
>>65732915"Ok great, you've invented all the basic requirements for an industrial revolution. Nobody is investing in your ideas. What advantage does a crude steam engine that requires fuel have over a handful of simple spells any mage can cast for pennies? Why spend time researching methods of improving metallurgy when the Alchemists have already been there and done that? What advantage does a flamethrower give over a Flame Spell?"
>>65733025Based Harpers makes the guns in fantasy tards reeeee every time
>>65739026>tell your novel-like storyNo. It's not the DM's story. It's the group's story and the group decided as a group on the boundaries before play. Among other things, players made character based on those boundaries and the DM put together adventures, quests, arcs, etc based on those boundaries.Collaboration doesn't mean the players can do whatever pops into their heads while the DM tries to make everything fit together. If one or more people - including the DM - no longer enjoy the story or wants ti change it's boundaries, it is time to talk. This is about fundamental changes. Reverting to Calvin Ball and expecting the others in the group to deal with it is not an option.
>>65736168Fusion is practical, but our current attempts are, in fact, shitty. We need to throw money at it to get it to work, but people don't want to so we are stuck at a snail's pace of breakthrough. In the 1600's the technology and supply chain for a steam engine large enough to power a boat to compete with the speed of wind or oar doesn't exist.
>>65733025I recall reading some obscure post-apocalyptic fantasy novel series "Horseclans". Where the main character (who's an immortal soldier from WWII) strangled one of his sons to death for re-discovering how to make guns because it would upset the natural order of Strength.
>>65732938This. If they want to have an industrial revolution, build the game around that goal. Skill checks for R&D, quests to hunt down materials, all that. As they get more creative and more successful, have some baddies steal their work (or try to) and run some corporate espionage plots. PR campaigns for and against them because of the labor usage. You have players with in-character goals and a ready-made SERIES of plots for it, why in the everliving fuck would you tell them no? Are you that fucking boring?
>>65732915Just because you as the player understands the concept of such things doesn't mean your character does. Even then your players are vastly overestimating their ability to make things. If you told the average person to draw a diagram for a steam engine most probably couldn't.
>>65737760>but there doesn't really seem to be any big technological hurdles thereITT: Things that are harder than laymen believe them to be
>>65732915Make them encounter all the difficulties making the shit. People didn’t go from idea to completely functioning and perfected design overnight.
>>65737557>EvilUncle ted did nothing wrong!
>>65732896I feel like this is trivially easy to solve:"Okay, player, how would your characters know how to do that? How would they have any concept of THAT kind of technology,, you meta-gaming fuckbucket?"
>>65732915Tell them that because the laws of physics are different, the methods they would have to use are different. There prior knowledge of how it works won’t help them
>>65732896I want to Immenatize her Eschatron, if you catch my drift.
>>65732915Impress on them the fantastic amount of money, sustained investment, and diligent oversight it will require for them to interact with this project.
>>65737224>>65737202Way back when I was doing research on the subject, black powder was classified as a low explosive. And blasting powder is just finely ground black powder IIRC.>>65737760Multi-firing, single barrel firearms existed as early as the 15th century, before the invention of the musket. Rare and incredibly expensice, but the existed and were in military service.>>65738172TBF, mass-produced cannon and firearms existed for hundreds of years before precision machine tools capable of standardizing them did.>>65739268Flamethrowers and napalm existed before firearms>>65739501Mages don't cast spells for pennies and any spell past 3rd level usually requires hundreds if not thousands of GP in material components. Besides, why would a mage want to stand around all day casting fireball or rock-to-mud repeatedly into a mineshaft when a few charges of blasting powder can do the same job and doesn't require a genetic rarity or a doctoral candidate to do the job?>motherfuckers don't know shit about economics want to use economic answers.
>>65740661I remember that. Horseclans was brutal.>>65739501Flamethrowers don't require the equivalent of a rare genetic mutant or a doctoral candidate to operate.
>>65732896That woman is of no use to any man. She is clearly a member of the rainbow brigade. Such a waste.
>>65744355You can still pork them, anon.
>>65744373Not if you have standards and no desire for sloppy seconds.
>>65732896>>65732915D R A G O N M E C H. Make them take levels in coglayer, and their steam power limit is the amount of gadgets the can maintain.
>>65732896>ninety percent of nu-/tg/ will not get the reference in OP's imagesad
>>65734021>so net charges are always 0So, like now.
>>65732896Change to IronKingdoms RPG.I sure wish I could play something that is not D&D
>>65732983This.I took a class in college and we read "Engineering and the Minds Eye" It's a great book detailing the history of certain engineering ideas, practices and products. Engineering has been a lot of blind shots and improving on the last generation. There are plenty of ways to shoot down the "industrial revolution now" players.As you said the tools needed just aren't around in a quasi-medieval time period, even with magic assisting production. You might hear "Then we'll make those tools" once you bring that up, but they are working from the finished product image in their mind. The first prototype of anything was incredibly ineffective.This is still not mentioning the people that might push back against a technological revolution. Wizards would become less important and lose money due to lack of need. After that why wouldn't the wizards be against technology? Strip mining mountains for coal? Druids and Fey are going to be pissed.
>>65745647>This is still not mentioning the people that might push back against a technological revolution. Wizards would become less important and lose money due to lack of need. After that why wouldn't the wizards be against technology? Strip mining mountains for coal? Druids and Fey are going to be pissed.Pay the wizards to cast/enchant items with Create Water and Presdigitation (to heat said water). Now you have automagical steam engines.
>>65734021So no lightning spells or naturally occurring lightning? No animals that can create or sense electrical fields?
>>65746155Hey, if you want to allow that in your game go for it, I personally enjoy the fantasy industrial setting. I was helping out OP who was against it.
>>65735356This is a valid point but, a bigger tool that easily could be done in any setting is a decent plow, disc and harrow. Those would radically leap farming forward.
>>65746155The hard part of steam engine is the metal and design, not the fuel.
>>65745450>IronKingdoms RPGNew edition fucking when?
>>65732915>Your character doesn't have concept of the knowledge required>also fuck off faggot
>>65732896>>65732915>Does your character have that knowledge? >How did they get that knowledge? >Why do they want to make X?>How do you expect to produce the desired outcome? >How do you expect to fund it?>How is this thematic and plot/setting relevant?IF for some reason they can bullshit the knowledge, reason, production capability, funding, and relevancy... Let them.But make it take a realistic turn around time. By the time they make their airship, the BBEG has long since won etc. >>65732937Nah, because that OOC knowledge.
>>65746501>IronKingdoms RPG>New edition fucking when?In 10 years, after everyone's forgotten about it, just like last time.
>>65746448Yeah, but I was talking in direct response to the quoted statement. That's why I quoted it.Wall of Iron, Plant Growth, Fabricate. That's Steel for you, for free. And Wizards have knowledge (Engineering) as default, so grab a bunch of skill buff spells and items, and throw in a Skill Shard of knowledge(Engineering). Then take 20 on designing a steam engine.
>>65737230I am also amused by the one that seems to be before yours but after OP's image.
>>65746501Their priority for the RPG is really low, but they probably still want to keep it in their 2D6 system, so they will not be licensing it to a 3rd party. And I personally can't blame them. So ya god knows when.