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>complaining about casters being stronger than martials
>>
>>65732849
i agree that people should just play 4e, but who are you quoting?
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>>65732849
>Playing DnD in 2019

You have nobody but yourself to blame. There are options out there that aren't shit, but you'd rather fill your face with fecal matter.
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>>65732849
I usually think mages and street samurai are about on par with eachother.
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>being content with casters being stronger than martials
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>People still don't grasp that having a multitude of options that both increase in power when you level up as well as gain new ones trumps having a set of static modifiers to one action you can perform.
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>Starting shitty bait threads with no other purpose but to incite a caster vs martials debate
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>he doesn't let his martials perform supernatural feats of strength
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>>65732849
>watching fucking horrible shit from cuckflix
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I guess we're doing this every day now.
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>>65733255
>Hurrdurr, DnD is a good game if you just change the game into something else.

Stop, just stop. This is so retarded it's pathetic.
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>>65733292
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>>65732849
she is a cute and I love her

it also helps that season two she gets ice magic, which is my favorite elemental subtype
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>>65733255
>50 methods

I've got one that works every time.
Stop playing DnD.
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>>65732849
That show actually does a great job of balancing the "martials" and casters. Spells are awesome, but a mace will still fuck your shit up. Especially a holy one.
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>>65732922
Could you name a system that can do fantasy that isn't GURPS and doesn't have a set setting like WHFRP? Genuinely want to know here.
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>>65733485
If you are stupid and like in the butt.
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>>65733574
>Not liking it in the butt
Faggot.
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>>65733074
>>65733213
> two posts about strode in one thread
you lads are alright sometimes
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>Mundane human with club should be equally powerful as human being that can create stars out of nothing.

Wish I was strawmanning. This is the martial pleb creed.
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>his martial isn't a caster
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>>65733921
They have the same explicitly stated cost in mechanically quantified and accumulated resources. Either they're as powerful, or they get a level adjustment.
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>>65733526
Not that guy, but The Dark Eye.
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>>65733131
So is there any reason for the baldness?
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>>65732849
>Casters not the most powerful
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>>65732849
>complaining about a system being broken
>saying its broken because a certain class is overpowered as hell
>playing that class and that system anyways because playing something else isn't "optimal"
>bullying other players in game rather than letting them have fun
>>
>>65733485
I'm not a fan of DnD, but you do realize that image is mocking people who give the "don't play DnD" advice, right?
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>>65732849
Direct damage or just any plain big numbers build is the thing that is ‘actually’ overpowered in pratice with 5E. I know you guys don’t actually play any of these games and only talk about theoreticals but the memes about caster suremicy need to unkindly go fuck off. At least in 5E 3.5 is ahemeraghing nightmare of casters being 12 steps above god.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-NepaGzstIA

There are essentially just 3 (barring UA) genuinely broken builds in 5e. Sharpshooter Crossbow Expert Battlemaster, any mix of Sorcerer/Paladin/Warlock smite craziness and the Druid/Barbarian freakish health build. Optimized builds in 5E don't drastically impact the game compared to gimped ones anywhere near as much as they did in the past.
>>65733068
>>65733292
>>65733921

What does it feel like to be opinion lemmings & wrong?
>>
>>65733074
For some reason non casters still get angry because that's weebshit, or DM's still get mad because the wizard deleted their problems with a utility spell.
Like if you're going to piss and moan about casters being OP and insist everything should be balanced, don't cry when someone suggests buffing the shit that sucks.
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>>65734366
>people get mad when [blank]
we're on 4channel anon, do what you want, people are gonna get mad anyway
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>>65732979
>I usually think mages and street samurai are about on par with eachother.
And that's because you're terrible at judging things.

Mages can mind control people, make everyone invisible to everything except super specialised equipment, boost everyone's speed, heal otherwise lethal wounds, throw fireballs whip up a multipurpose tank-armoured elemental in one round AND use a gun decently. And probably be able to have another specialisation like being a face or being a smart guy.

A street sam can maybe shoot a gun REALLY really well and possibly be able to have another specialisation like sneak well themselves or be a petty thief.

Yes, a street sam will probably blenderize a mage if you drop them in an empty room next to one another. But the sheer versatility of a top end mage is ridiculous compared to a top end street sam.
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>>65732849
In GURPS, 1000 points caster is 100 times more powerful than 1000 points martial
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>>65732922
Well, it is the single greatest fantasy RPG, so, I mean, it can't be all bad.
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>>65734824
>a mage can do all these things that having a bit of prep and some money can do almost identically

woow
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>>65733485
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>>65733921
There is just so much wrong with this post, let me number them:
1 - The cost of magic should never be "nothing"
2 - That is something only a high level mage should be able to pull off unless in a very very specific setting like Mage The Awakening
3 - It doesn't matter how many stars you make, if you bleed you can die, and if a sword can make you bleed, someone with a sword should be able to do you in
4 - The martial is routinely denied his ability to do more because of shitty GM's that don't allow him to use his weapon in ways that would allow creativity or imagination
5 - A 20th level wizard capable of creating stars is great, but so is a 20th level Barbarian who's challenged gods to duels and won
6 - It's intrinsically implied that as you gain more and more levels you exceed the mundane purely through existing becoming a literal demi-god or warrior of legend. Effectively, by 10th level, a human fighter is no longer mundane strictly through principal.
>>
>>65733921
Levels, motherfucker, do you speak them? If it takes the same amount of experience and encounters to level both then they should be roughly the same powerlevel
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>>65734020
>>65734712

If a mundane man can with physical abilities amount to the same results as complete Gravitiy Control, Summoning, Teleportation, Weather Control, Divination, etc etc then he's not merely a mundane Martial anymore, he's just a magical-being in martial drag.
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>>65734979
Why should all the realms magic be reduced to "man with club" just because of "socialism levels"? Makes no sense. Nothing is gained from this dumb-down.

Also read: >>65734992
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>>65734879
>a mage can do all these things that having a bit of prep and some money can do almost identically
You cannot have a metaphorical flying tank level spirit appear out of thin air in one pass and start literally eating your enemies no matter how much money you spend, unless you are paying a mage to do that.

You cannot literally mind control people in a single complex action without spending ridiculous amounts of money.

You cannot boost anyone else's speed, heal people, throw around explosives and make everyone invisible without using up resources and lugging around huge amounts of illegal material.

You can do maybe a couple of these things, if you blew your entire amount of money to be good on it. A mage can do most of them right out of chargen. If that's not "a mage is better than a street sam" I don't know what is.
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>>65734997
You started out plausible, but have overplayed your hand and made it too obvious. 3/10.
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>>65732849
If a caster can eventually blow up a star, then why is it too crazy to suggest that in the same exact system under the same exact levels and conditions a martial shouldn't be able to slice a star in half?
>>65732869
>i agree that people should just play 4e,
I'd rather not play a shitty video game.
>but who are you quoting?
>>>/jp/
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>>65735031

Dudes in the thread were saying that if a Wizard can create stars then the Barbarian should be able to supplex gods and planets at the same level.

I responded in kind. Rage quit all you want.

If A wizard can create a star or a tank out of nothing to break down a wall. If the Fighter can do the same thing with his farts then he's basically a MAGE and not a mundane man at all.

Debate me or get out.
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>cowardly guy who spends a year reading tomes to learn how to make a candle-flame dance
>"stronger" than a powerful warrior who can channel their life energy into attacks that crack stone, run as fast as a horse at full gallop, leap 50ft in the air from powerful muscles and is immune to poison and vampire bites due to blood being so thick with life energy

The fuck? When did /tg/ get this retarded? Casters can not and will never be as strong as martials.
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>>65735053
>Casts charm on your 17 yo wife
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>>65734992
>then he's not merely a mundane Martial anymore, he's just a magical-being in martial drag.
That is the point, yes. Either run straight up low fantasy where magic actually is an insane unpredictable force compared to the mundane, or have high fantasy where having God-like mental prowess and God-like martial prowess are both a thing, rather than D&D's shitty mix of God-like Casters and slightly-superhuman Martials.
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>>65735055

True Love > Magic. Don't you know your fairy tales?
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>>65735048
Nobody but you said martial classes should be mundane. Try harder
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>>65735055

So you've cast a spell to literally put yourself in the friend zone? That's what Charm person does, it makes them see you as a friend.
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>>65735048
>mundane
Inventing a strawman to tear it down does not make you intellectually superior anon.
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>>65735065
That would devalue both magic and mundane martials though. Simply putting them both on "in-universe godly abilities" wouldn't be good.

Because there's a lot of people that just wants to be a Knight in Platemail with a HUGE polearm.

To force all martials to suddenly turn into Naruto Ninjas or Transformers would be more upsetting than even the worst scenario that's on the table right now.
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>>65735097

Then your martial is the Chosen Undead in that case. A guy with a polearm and plate armour that can kill gods with persistence and skill.
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>>65735074
It was literally my first post in this thread.

>Mundane man with club

Everything in this thread branched from my first comment.

You've got schooled twice now. Awaiting reply.

>Plants victory flag.
>>
Why are you people still arguing over this shit? Literally every single "solution" or "fix" posted in this thread was already posted here >>65733255

There is no need to continue this discussion.
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>>65735093
Another rando that can't follow the thread. This discussion started with mundane, and it looks like I just savagely ended it with mundane too.

>>65735103

>plants victory flag
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>>65735097
>Because there's a lot of people that just wants to be a Knight in Platemail with a HUGE polearm.
Yes, a huge knight with the strength to fight off an entire army and lift 100-ton boulders. What's the issue here? Are you implying that such character concepts are only possible if they are "mundane"? Why aren't you playing a low-fantasy system in that case? Why the fuck are you playing D&D if you don't want to be a superhuman?
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>>65735079
>The spell does not enable you to control the charmed person as if it were an automaton, but it perceives your words and actions in the most favorable way.
"Oh, wow. Your husband has really been ignoring you lately. Maybe there is truth to the rumors that he's banging his secretary. You know, I'm here for you if you need any consolation or comfort."
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>>65735101
> A guy with a polearm and plate armour that can kill gods with persistence and skill.

That would devalue the gods. Not so much of a literal GOD if you can get killed by a man with a polearm hitting you with steroid-human strength.
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>>65735055
Is your wizard a rapist? Because if you're using mind-affecting spells to get people to fuck you, that's not really consent.
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>>65735109
>huge knight with the strength to fight off an entire army and lift 100-ton boulders

Sounds like supernatural (magic) strength to me.
I'm alright with magical Hercules characters. Point to you I suppose.
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>>65735109
Because they're low agency and everyone plays DnD, there fore they haveno choice. They can't do shit about it so stop being angry at them.
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>>65735106
>This discussion started with mundane
Yes, this discussion YOU started about how martials = mundane. Your logic is as follows:

>martial is mundane
>mundane is martial
>not mundane is not martial

Which you got called out for multiple times.

>and it looks like I just savagely ended it with mundane too.
Yeah your brainpower is pretty mundane but you don't see me bragging.
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>>65735116
>Not so much of a literal GOD if you can get killed by a man with a polearm hitting you with steroid-human strength.

Right, clearly he needed an Iron Chariot to beat a god.
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>>65735135
Magical Barbarians killing the Abrahamic god with grappling is not mundane martial.

Is that so hard to understand?
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>>65735128

Or being a Youxia, using entirely natural chi to do things through training.
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>>65735048
>If A wizard can create a star or a tank out of nothing to break down a wall.
Then he's a god, or just bullshit. Doing things like that is not part of the wizard archetype.
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>>65735149

Well no. You wrestle angels and beat up god with iron chariots if you're going biblical. Right tool for the right problem.
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>>65735151
I love all kinds of Wuxia, when martials in my settings complain I suggest similar larger-than-life styles to them. Same in internet debates.

But people want to be Knight it Sword, fighting against god-wizard... and win.
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>>65735158
I don't mind biblical or greek mythology martials, but then we're moving away from what people whining about this are really talking about.

This side-dance isn't what's on the table, dudes want their 3+ LongSword to compete with Manifest Illusion
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>>65735161
A level 20 fighter should be able to defeat a level 1 god

prove me wrong
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>>65735128
>>65735149
>Anons still missing the point this hard
Listen you pea-brains, nobody gives a fuck about your "hurf durf martial is mundane" shit, this is not even what the thread is about so stop fucking insisting on arguing about it. We're talking about the character archetype of playing a superhuman strongman being blatantly overshadowed by magic man of magic. This was never about mundane vs unmundane, it was martial vs caster.
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>>65735172
>I don't mind biblical or greek mythology martials, but then we're moving away from what people whining about this are really talking about.

You're the one who said 'abrahamic god'.
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>>65735153
Human beings on earth have created star-like energies. I don't put that behind a high-fantasy wizard.
>>
You're arguing with the same fucking retard who continues to argue about the same fucking shit every single day. There is no purpose to doing this. You are wasting your own time.
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>>65735179
I'm trying to put the bar as high as possible, as to show the limits of the 'martial mundane' concept. Wherein the Wizard is still limited, but not as limited as the martial with such constraints
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>>65735177
>It's not about mundane vs Magic

>It's about making martials magical

I camp these threads every day, I never heard that argument EVERY. People want their Sword and Board knights to match magic spells shot for shot (usually by submitting ideas of nerfed magic)
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>>65735197
>I'm trying to put the bar as high as possible, as to show the limits of the 'martial mundane' concept.

Except, right in the bible, the Abrahamic god was defeated by a mundane thing (Iron Chariots). You'd want to pick an example that didn't lose to the thing you're trying to argue can't win.
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>>65735238
>>It's about making martials magical
No anon, listen to me for one fucking second, it's about being able to play both King Arthur and Merlin, not Average "Mundane" Joe and Merlin. Jesus Christ think before you type with your ass.
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>>65732849
I'd rather complain about not being able to make love to Sypha
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>>65735391
Same, to be honest.
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>>65735274

> Wanting to play King Arthur and Merlin.
> Not realizing that magic items are what closes the gap between those 2
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>>65733255
I like to post this in martial vs caster threads because it pisses off casterfags. It doesn't even mention D&D, and they're still reduced to spastic conniptions.
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>>65735274
King Arthur had magical assistant and magical sword, without it he was just a mundane man.


That's exactly how the game is played now.


You can literally be King Arthur TODAY.
>>
FACT: If casters feel overpowered, it's because the GM is being incompetent and haven't done the appropriate measures to introduce anti-caster enemies, environments and traps and/or haven't given martial players tools and items to even the balance.
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>>65736041
>haven't given martial players tools and items to even the balance.
That's not the GM's fault if the system doesn't provide something to that extent. It really is telling that the only way to actually get as good as a caster user in most settings - in only one manner - is to buy a ridiculously expensive magic item that emulates what the caster does outright.
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>>65734071
They're men
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>>65736041
Casters need "feel" overpowered, they're just playing the game and chilling with smug grins.

It's the martials that cry like little babies on 4chan after game night.
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>>65735055
>Wizards are creepy rapists that spike drinks
Pretty obvious in hindsight.
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>>65732849
Play 5e. Your martials are now casters.
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>>65733526
Ryuutama
World of Dungeons 1979
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>>65735179
>abrahamic god
Just say YHVH, son of man.
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>>65733255
Stop shilling yourself, this isn't helpful fuck off.
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>>65735181
Yes, teams of engineers and physicists with government backing and years on a project. Maybe a collection of wizards can do so under similar circumstances, but not alone.
>>
If monks and other vaguely weeb classes can get qi pools to do their stuff, and have it be separate from legitimate magic, and psions can have psychic bullshit that is separate from magic, then martials should have an opportunity to have something that lets them suplex titans and flex hard enough to ignore magic strong enough bind gods and demons to a mage's will.
>>
In DND there's no problem with Martial vs Casters...before level 11. As long as a Martial is more intelligent than "Charge Wizard", there's all sorts of strategies a Martial can enploy to exhaust and out maneuver a Wizard in battle. Sure Casters have incredible spells - but they only get to fire one or two of them off a day and can't stand against multiple threats attacking at different times.

DND in all editions starts to break down once you start approaching high level play, so it's pointless to compare Maritals vs Casters once level 6 spells start coming into play and the party is supposed to regularly encounter beings from other planes, adult dragons, and huge and gargantuan creatures that are often 'Alpha' versions of monsters several CRs lower. IMO once a party reaches level 10+ in DND it's time to wrap up the game.
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>>65732849
>unironically being a part of a tabletop class based epeen fight instead of wanting to have roughly the same power as your friends to make fights more interesting and spend time with your buds.

Lmaoing @ ur life
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>>65735113
>When the spell ends the creature knows it's been charmed by you

"Chad, an hour ago this creepy DYEL cast a spell on me and tried to get into my pants. Go kick his ass while I tell the guards there's a rape wizard in town.""
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>>65735055
>The absolute state of martial cucks being triggered by this post
At least we aren't polymorphing martials into being the girl, oh wait
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>>65735105
I think you're just troll at this point
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>>65732849
Why complain when I can just fix it because I'm the DM?
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>>65738155
Stuff like immediate force sphere, teleports, wings of cover, etc appear before 11th level thought
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>>65738155
>10+
Try 7th level if you're playing 3.PF.
>>
>using an image for a show where magic and martial charactacters (granted one with minimal magical items) were roughly equal to complain that martials and magicians are unequal
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>>65738460
>roughly equal
lol
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>>65738155
>In DND there's no problem with Martial vs Casters...before level 11. As long as a Martial is more intelligent than "Charge Wizard", there's all sorts of strategies a Martial can enploy to exhaust and out maneuver a Wizard in battle
You've missed the point that the martial has to make an entire build to be good at exactly one subset of one method of fighting, while a caster can be good at an entire range of things with no to little investment. At all levels.

It's not JUST a head to head battle that causes problems, but vs other enemies, in social scenarios, puzzles, skill tests, dungeoneering and pretty much every other area of the game.
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>>65733526
Megaversal System, Palladium
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>>65738512
Outside of bullying the shit out of Dracula's castle, her capabilities are roughly on par with her teammates.
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>>65738597
Also casters can respec after 8 hours rest
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>>65733921
There are several implicit assumptions in this post that betray its origins in the mind of a dyed-in-the-wool casterfag.
>>
casters win
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>>65733074
What the fuck is even going on in this poorly drawn monstrosity?
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>>65740152

Rogues aren't martial. Caster wins until they forget the halfling.

Can't hit what you can't see. Can't scry what you aren't looking for.
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>>65740314
Which is also what the ranger is for.
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>>65740178
nuhercules is tossing a stronk wahmen through a wall
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>>65734071
photoshop you blind fuck
>>
Martials are best when they specialize. Be this taking hits, single target DPR, or being a skill monkey (bards excel at this). The issue is that they then become one-trick ponies; their area of expertise becomes all they can do.

Casters are best because of their versality. That can equate to answers that can solve whatever problem the DM presents. Be this combat or non-combat. There is a caveat to this however.

*You cannot and will not have an answer to every situation.
*You have a limited amount of spells each day.
*Your health, AC, and saves are poor.
*You will not be the best at everything.

Casters shine when they control the battlefield, and limit what the enemy can do. Fog, difficult terrain, crowd control, and debuffing can end encounters before they've started. Couple that with summons on par with a fighter, or specialized blasting or buffing, and your fighter turns into little more than a glorified body blocker.

The issue lies entirely with the player however. If the caster doesn't know what he's doing, then he automatically becomes the weakest character in the game. GM can also seek to balance encounters, but he can't earnestly fix the descrepancy of the versatility afforded by casters.

By level 20 however, if money is no object then anybody can use UMD. Only spells that target Touch AC, no save, summons, or makes changes to the environment become worthwhile anyway.
>>
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>>65741287
>being a skill monkey (bards excel at this)
>martials
>bard
>martial
>>
>>65740178
>shitting on fucking Tradd Moore
pleb
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>>65741320
Was just pointing it out, before someone would correct me. No wizard worth their salt would bother becoming a skill monkey, but a bard will.
>>
>>65735042
>If a caster can eventually blow up a star, then why is it too crazy to suggest that in the same exact system under the same exact levels and conditions a martial shouldn't be able to slice a star in half?
This guy has the right idea.
>>
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>>65732849
Always relevant
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>>65735042
This always goes back to the problem with levels, if two characters are on equal levels it should imply that they have comparable feats and means of affecting the game world. If one class is meant to outstrip fighters, I'm pretty sure older iterations of DnD just had certain classes stop levelling up at a certain point while others kept going.

It's sounds neither balanced nor fun to be the same level as the party's wizard but not able to affect the game the same way they can.
>>
>>65742452
Anon, you are forgetting that most players should not play wizards. Those who do should have the sense to not overshadow the party, but fascilitate them.

It will always remain a player problem.
>>
Casters stronger than martials. This is okay, as it should be.

Casters equal to martials, or around that. This is also okay. Fun teamwork.

Casters weaker than martials. Everything is wrong with this.
>>
>>65742648
>It will always remain a player problem.
I put the weight of any fault on a system that doesn't attempt to curb class imbalances like this rather than the players for using the system as it's structured. If it were the opposite and fighters far outclassed wizards I'd also raise an eyebrow.

Otherwise the system shouldn't pretend that characters are equal level and have whichever class that is less impressive just stop gaining levels earlier than the others.
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>>65732979
I'm with you. SR gives characters of all types a variety of options that can suit a number of purposes. Plus a high agility suits a number of important skills, stealth, pickpocketing, and lock picking can get you a long ways when bullets fail.
>>
>>65732922
Nobody plays your dead or dying system though
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>>65733292
D&D was designed to be changed by DMs into whatever they want
>>
>>65732979
Have you never seen bound spirits? Or spirits in general?
>>
>>65742648
>Here, before you there an infinite list of options, each of them more powerful than the previous. But don't take them. Also lowball all your features. It's implied in the system even though is not written anywhere. Also you, as a new player should already know this class is better
>>
>>65742648
>Oh, this class looks cool, Druid, man, and they give you a pet, and a bear among them, so cool
The first time I played PF, we were all new to the system, one of the players picked druid, the other picked monk. Guess fucking what.
>>
>>65743012
D&D is inherently imbalanced, as is any other tabletop RPG - regardless of how balanced you attempt to make it. The issue with casters stem from the magnitude of spells alone.

If casters could do nothing but sculpt the environment with fog, difficult terrain, and walls they would still be best class. They would need martials to clean up the encounter, which is what most casters rely on.

The most "OP" characters I have witnessed have been martials doing an absurd amount of damage. But that was all they did. It's an apples and fruitbasket deal.
>>
>>65743222
Take haste. Cast invisibility on your rogue. Slow down the reeinforcements with Sleet Storm. Help the party out of Resist Energy before the dragon uses it's breath weapon.

Would you look at that, you're letting the other players play the game instead of summoning a shit ton of monsters or spamming fireball.
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>>65732849
>DM doesn't fill his game with anti magic shit in general
Car alarms exist to stop car thieves. Varis protection exists to stop viruses. If magic is a common utility in the world, anti-magic should be fucking everywhere.
>>
What's with the insistence of 'badass martials yeahhhh' and 'anti magic fuck wizards YEAHHHH' on this board? Are you all of the chuuni crowd? It's fucking magic. Jesus.
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>>65743633
People parroting and being butthurt because the caster gets to do cool magic shit while they're stuck swinging a pointy stick
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>>65743450
>spamming fireball
>good option
Only if you have sacred geometry so you can add dazing spell
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>>65743568
This is such a cringe fucking comment, and it's why I never, -ever- let late-game martials surpass casters when it comes to capability. You fags use the worst, most awful comparisons and can't logic to save your scrotes.
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>>65743262
Druid is the most complicated class in PF. Finding the right shape shift forms, the right animal companion, finding the right spells (and knowing how to use them), the right summons, and the right feats to accompany all of it is staggering. That said, Animal Companions often turn out pretty good by themselves.

Most druids always turn out to be fucking useless for this very reason, despite their incredible potential. If you did your homework, then yeah - you're deserve to be better than the monk. God have mercy on anyone straining themselves when picking stuff out for that class.
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>>65743568
guns kill people in the real world all the time. Why aren't there anti-gun mechanism 'fucking everywhere'?
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>>65743739
Blasting is a subpar option in general, I concur. I'm just pointing out options that may result in the party not getting to do anything. It's very much possible to dial up the numbers on blasting, but that tends to turn you into a one-trick pony.
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>>65743832

I would think because one is grounded somewhat in logic and the other allows you to throw fireballs from your hands. I would think some leeway is given to the latter.
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>>65733131
Is this from the /vg/ speedrun general?
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>>65743802
>you're deserve to be better than the monk
why?
if the monk does the same level of homework he'll still be behind a fucking pet. Druid is bullshit, and is pretty easy to actually not fuck up because:
1. You respect your spells with 8 hours of rest
2. You respect your pet with 12 hours
3. You respect your shape at any fucking time
4. Druid only needs 1, ONE, spell, natural spell, with the rest you can pick literally whatever and still be effective as fuck

A monk is stuck with whatever he picks. If you fuck up your druid...in a day you have a new druid, a monk on top of being worse in any situation ever is also fucked forever if he picks a wrong option
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>>65743832
The balance between defense and offence that science can offer irl has be as fucked as an appropriate metaphor for an arguable amount of time. Most probably since guns stopped being shit.

However what goes in real life shouldn't be a concrete limitation on settings that are not kin to our own reality.
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>>65743864
Depends on the setting. An incendiary magic may be harder to employ than a handgun. You're also retarded.
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>>65743964
Monk doing the same level of homework will the the most DPR short of a Summoner. Be that melee with Monk of the Four Winds, ranged with Zen Archer, or grappling with optional archetypes.

Druids deserve to be stronger because of their spell list, and the mind boggling amount of options for shape shifting and nature's ally. You can't beat that versatility being Bruce Lee - or One Punch Man.
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>>65744017

In that same vein incendiary magic could require you to just tap two fingers together. Or maybe so a small jig to summon a literal god out of thin air. There's so many factors and "What if"s that it doesn't matter. The fuck is wrong with you, anon?
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>>65734966
>but so is a 20th level Barbarian who's challenged gods to duels and won
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>>65743364
>D&D is inherently imbalanced
I'm not under any pretense otherwise hence why people complain about martial vs casters among many topics.

My point is that if two characters are level 10, either they should both be able to have equal, or somewhat equal, means of effecting the scenario or they should adhere to what I believe is the earlier template of having the classes that can do more have higher level caps than the rest. That's the only balance I'd seek. So if fighters can't warp reality or stuff, than they should just cap out at like 5. And wizards can cap out at 10 because they get more stuff to do and need it metered out over a longer experience range.

I play mostly point-buy systems and issues of costs aside, if everyone at the table is given 100 points in say, GURPS, we're all going to be in a roughly equal ballpark. I don't know why that can't be the case in class based systems as that seems to be a frequenc complaint that a specific class, or series of classes, just outstrip the rest.
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>>65733526
Dungeon World.
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>>65733921
Behold, the living grog.
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>>65733526
If you really want high fantasy then use Mutants & Masterminds. It works much better. For lower power there are a lot of systems from GURPS to D6, TRoS and so on, and so on.
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>>65734879
A mage can do every job. Why bother with a face? Mage has mind control. Why bother with a rigger? Mage has summoned minions. Why bother with a sammy? Mage can be an adept. Why bother with an infiltrator? Mage can turn invisible.
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>>65734845
Have you checked the cosmic shit? You can cut anything. ANYTHING!
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>>65734992
>If a mundane man can with physical abilities amount to the same results as complete Gravitiy Control, Summoning, Teleportation, Weather Control, Divination, etc etc then he's not merely a mundane Martial anymore, he's just a magical-being in martial drag.
"If I define Magic as being infinitely powerful, and define Martials as being no stronger than normal people, then it makes no sense for Martials to be as strong as Magic!"

Bravo, anon. Peerless logic. Remind me: when exactly did Gandalf bust out the Gravity Control, Summoning, Teleportation, Weather Control, or Divination? I must have missed it.
>>
>>65735048
>If A wizard can create a star or a tank out of nothing to break down a wall
If.

Where's the spell that lets them do that?
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>>65744377
>I'll interact with NPCs through mind control
I'll give you 2 sessions before your character dies horribly.
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>>65732849
>>complaining about casters being stronger than martials
I dont care as long as martial dont cast spells and casters dont try to battle like adults
Designing spells is a pain tho
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>>65735161
Knight it Sword literally cut mountains in half. And if you look a little east than the feats get even more ridiculous. Like some guys lifting up all the Earths weight/burden. And that was just a farmer.
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>>65733526
4e
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>>65732849
mages shouldn't even playable characters except in games specifically designed for them like ars magica.
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>>65735818
Check the feats of the kinghts of the Round table. And Arthur sparred with them even without Excalibur.
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>>65733921
Even in the most tarded of d&d wizards aren't creating stars out of nothing.
You're letting your personal daydream powerwank leak into discussions about actual games.
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>>65744441
>If.
>Where's the spell that lets them do that?
Summon 14 force spirit.
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>>65744599
reminder that wish exists
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>>65744418
The most powerful spell Gandalf cast was Daylight. Saruman on the other hand, his speech alone is more terrifying than his army of orcs.
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>>65744686

And is the highest level possible spell that must be searched for, requiring extremely rare components, and is specifically stated to give a free and open way for your DM to fuck with you.

Why do people who don't even play the game think they know anything about it?
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>>65744139
>And then I conjured a STAR, instantly vaporizing the BBEG and the barbarian.
Casterfags are just as reddit tier.
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>>65732849
The only complaint to be had is when there is no rape on the tabletop.
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>>65744864
That's easy. Just invite a girl. Your GM will do the rest.
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>>65734907
That image is stupid.
The thing about this image is that the common complaints (especially caster supremacy) are pretty much endemic to D&D.
Stop playing D&D and you suddenly don't have that issue.
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>>65744729
Ironic that you say I don't play the game and say I don't know anything about it and in the same post you say wish has a component cost
spoilers: it doesn't
Also you can just learn wish when you reach a high enough level. You don't need to "find" it
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>>65744958
Maybe he's talking about the diamonds worth 25 000 gp, and whatever else his GM put him up to.
>>
>Martials should be able to suplex mountains
>N-No! That's too weeby I want my nitty gritty realism martial that's also somehow capable of fighting dragons and dudes that cast fireballs
Martialsfags everyone
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>>65745012
what? That's just one of the examples of what you could do with wish without a risk of DM fuckery; create an object worth 25k
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>>65732849
and yet you made a thread about it..
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>>65745072
Different editions then. It's not like you get to play around with 9th level spells much anyway.
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>>65745139
the point wasn't "does everyone get to use wish a lot", the point was "can a caster create a star out of nothing", to which the answer is quite literally yes as long as you have a 9th level spell slot and have wish as one of your learned spells.
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>>65745013
>>65745013
>I want my nitty gritty realism martial that's also somehow capable of fighting dragons and dudes that cast fireballs

I don't care what this shitty argument is about, this line of counter argument is abyssmal. You do realize a fantasy world operates on a set of rules that needs to be consistent with itself. It's all an effort to make the world more believable.

There is a reason why low-magic settings become more popular.
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>>65732849
> every spell save is dependent on CON&STR
everything is now balanced
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>>65745139
>>65745175
oh and also, I just checked 3, 3.5 and 4e and only 4e has a material requirement for wish but in that edition the spell is much more limited so that anon is just a fucking hypocrite overall.
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>>65745175
Wish does not work like that even in 2ed or 3.5.
Wish is an extremely dangerous spell and thinking that the game breaks because of wish instead of shit like long feat chains, broken action economy or natural spell shows how absolutely oblivious and inexperienced the retards that shitpost here are.
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>>65732922
why wouldn't I play D&D, the reason it's so popular is that it's one of the better RPGs. The others are wither complete shit or just a reskinned D&D
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>>65743832
>Bulletproof plating
>Kevlar doesn't exist

Are you even trying?
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>>65745363
Its not true. Most RPGs that differ from DnD usually do jobs they are meant to do well. DnD is good for a high fantasy demi god play. Not much else.
>>
>"Casters are so overpowered over martials! I mean, look at the damage of this spell..."
>"Haha! Storm Crow, am I right?"
>"Have you considered not playing D&D?"
>Another story involving a mundane action where the punchline is a Nat 20, Nat 1 or multiples of either

It's funny: the same person at an LGS said all of those and it turned out he had almost zero actual experience in playing tabletop games and only lurked in Facebook meme pages. Funny how that works.
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>>65733526
Mythras.
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>>65742287
But I enjoy DnD
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>>65744920
>Shadowrun
>Fate
>Savage Worlds
>WoD
>FFG Star Wars
>Traveler
>Wild Talents

All of those have caster/martial disparity.

Wild Talents is a superhero system, but the most common 'caster' power to grab is Cosmic Power, which lets you make whatever power you want and is implied to be wizardly magic.

The only ones I can think of that are even slightly balanced is Shadow of the Demon Lord, and Dungeons: The Dragoning.
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>>65743568
The issue with that is that anti-magic zones literally just tell the caster players to, well, stop playing. You're telling them "Oh, you can either come into the antimagic zone and go pew pew with your shitty crossbow, or sit and wait outside."
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>>65746925
Not him, but anti-magic is not necessarily circumscribed to a huge area. Also magic can be impeded concerning specific schools or sub-schools, not necessarily 100%. So you have to cast, but change your spell combination and be creative.
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>>65732849
dang, who dis? is there lewds?
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>>65747066
Yeah, I think the idea of 'enhanced evocation zones' or 'weakened divination zones' or even just a blanket 'weakened magic' (which grants spell resistance to everything inside) is better than just a 'fuck you' antimagic zone. 90% of the time, when people talk antimagic, they mean the 'fuck you' variety.
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>>65733255
I think the person who wrote that list forgot what their goal was when they were making suggestions. Most of what they've written amounts to "make playing mages less fun", which is a parody of good GMing. There's also a lot of "put specific obstacles or redirect existing antagonists to focus on the spellcasters", which only ever increases the amount of spotlight directed at the casters at the expense of non-casters, i.e. the opposite of what should have been the goal in the first place.

The rest is 90% "change the rules to make magic users less OP, no I won't tell you how". All the way at the end is an actually decent suggestion, "give non-casters cool shit". Nothing easier for a GM who is actually running a campaign, especially since it lets them tailor the play adjustment they're making to the actual dynamics at their table. (Ever seen a caster that doesn't cast spells? I have. No need to nerf that guy, he came to my table pre-nerfed.) But we won't see a lot of discussion of that sort of thing because you don't care about my campaign and I don't care about yours, the only thing we can discuss in common is the rules as written.
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>>65746854
>the /tg/-made rpg has the best caster-martial balance
Based

Mmm, what about "everyone uses magic" but there's still Casters and Martial as a setting piece?

So like, the Martials' would have spells like strength fortification, or weapon summoning, etc.

Maybe even pull some stuff back out of the caster wheelhouse, so that like, invisibility is a sneaky-martial thing, stoneskin and weapon enchanting is a stabby-martial thing,

Maybe even break up Caster so it has to specialize into a niche the way martials do. Spell chains for instance, would help fix that a lot. But so would class spell lists that don't include a little bit of nearly everything.

Basically, whichever case, make the divisions based more on mechanical niche rather than power source in lore, since lore is malleable.
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>>65745848
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjNPGX5HV5Y

And here's why
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>>65747510
What a great way to waste six minutes of my life to get to a point that could be communicated in one.
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>>65733255
3 it's actually decent.
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>>65733131
All of the right are trans or guys right?
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>>65732849
You could play a good edition of D&D where casting a single fireball per day meant you had to survive having d4 hp (healing 1hp per day of rest and instant death at 0hp) and being outpaced by your party members in level the entire time.
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>>65733131
Dear god.
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>>65733526
Mutants and Masterminds, though marketted as a supers system, is honestly a generic one.

Most supers systems are, really.

So M&M could do fantasy just fine.

And since there shouldn't be a whole lot of difference between building a caster and any other PC. Just choose powers. If it belongs in a matrix because it's the exact same "power" but being used to create a different effect, it's a matrix, like fire control for damage, fire control for dazzle, can't do both at once, it's a matrix.
(note this does weaken casters compared to some systems, since spells will cost based on power level, and they have to pick out what they can do, they're never gonna have a 35 long spell-list unless they're all weak)

Mostly then it would just come down to what kind of Martial?

Are you the ironman/link sort, with an arsenal of magic items?
Martial with some kind of innate magic to their combat, either a fighting style, alternate form, weird racial/heritage powers or maybe they're just Xboxhueg and tough as nails?
Batman martial who focuses primarily on ambush, combat maneuvering and tactics, and planning orchestrated through skills and special moves?
About the only thing you can't do period is "completely human in every way, no superhuman ability not even exceptional strength or speed or accuracy, aided with no magic or technology and completely unlearned at anything but basic combat."
Because the system acknowledges that that's just a normal guard NPC, and not something actually capable of heroics going toe to toe with much freakier foes. You've got to be exceptional SOMEhow. Those character gen points have to be spent on something, or else your actual power level is much lower.

I'm still debating with myself to build fantasy class templates of sorts for M&M so it's easier for people to pick up and run a game of it in that easy plug-and-play style that D&D has instead of needing to build from the ground up or use its Supers templates which don't follow the same tropes
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>>65733526
SimpleD6 and D6-Lite are both generic systems.

Fate Accelerated if you want something more narrativist.

>>65741287
>The issue lies entirely with the player however. If the caster doesn't know what he's doing, then he automatically becomes the weakest character in the game.

Meanwhile, if the fighter player is a damn expert he still is playing the exact same "I full attack and end my turn" statblock, so there's not much else he can do. He can use the environment, or otherwise be creative, but so too can any caster, and through utility, often to a better degree.

So the only solution here is to only let new players play casters, and then when you notice them start to get tactical you force them into martial characters from then on and pass on the mantle.
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>>65743802
meanwhile if the monk does his homework, he's still pretty much useless.

I know, I've tried.
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>>65733068
>People still think this and masturbate over mostly bullshit stories on /tg/ while screeching about their caster supremacy.
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>>65737922
I mean, what you're describing is just qi anyway. Qi *is* the martial power source. Dnd and its ilk just suffer from a crippling disconnect in their cismologies because they're incoherent kitchen sink settings. In a consistent setting, if monks had qi, so too would fighters, rangers, barbarians, rogues...
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>>65735053
>dopey engineer designs tanks, bombs, and jets
>durr how is this soi boi society of nerds more powerful than my African tribal warband
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>>65744351
>If you really want high fantasy then use Mutants & Masterminds.
I second this
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>>65745551
>DnD is good for a high fantasy demi god play.


Part of the issue is that Gygax never intended for Players to be above 10th, which is why all the classes got followers and could establish keeps and whatever by that level.

10th was the level where you became the ruler sending out adventurers to fight things for you, a prophetic archbishop leading a church, or a BBEG villain, or that recluse in a tower somewhere studying some esoteric deep truth that adventurers will seek out for the answer of how to defeat that villain.

It was the level you went from PC to mostly just an NPC, maybe coming out of retirement if something Avengers movie big happens that forces you to come together with your old buddies and maybe a few new ones and handle it yourself.

So yeah, spells of 6th and above ARE game breaking, because his original intent was for those to mostly only be available to DMs, and used for plot contrivance or to emphasize power

And yeah, the Fighter didn't get spells, but by that point he had rules-mandated lackeys, attendants, and a standing army. And okay, yeah, that's never gonna get you to a separate plane without contacting a mage, but if you think it's not powerful and versatile ask Tyre how it feels about its unsolicited bridge. There's a reason necromancers want an army of skeletons. Only imagine if each of those skeletons wasn't braindead. It's Separatist Robots VS Republic Clones.

Many editions later, the casters are only slightly less powerful at levels above 10th, and Fighter gets no army. But levels above 10 still rarely see play outside of NPCs.
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>>65747842
>not watching talking head youtube videos on x2 speed
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>>65748187
>tell people what to play
Awful idea, but hey - asking to players to work as a team works too.
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>>65748222
I can't expect everybody to be good at degenerate min/maxing. Still won't be versatile, which is the only issue the whole discussion revolved around.
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>>65735138

The iron chariot thing is an intentionally poor interpretation of the verse, btw. It isn't that God couldn't defeat them because of the iron chariots: God beats iron chariots easily (see Judges 4:13-16). The tribe of Judah, not God, are the "he" that could not defeat the chariots of iron in Judges 1:19, and the reason wasn't any lack on God's part, but because the tribesmen of Judah were afraid (see Joshua 17:16-19).
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>>65745175
https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Wish

Show me where it says you can create a star, unless you think stars are worth less than 25k gold.
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>>65737922
I still advocate that Martials get a thing similar to psionics. Power of the mind makes supernatural effects? Power of the body can too. Tah dah.

Give it disciplines like the psionic ones.

>Voyance (Amazing senses. "What do your elf eyes see?" Smell the enemy. Spidey-sense. you get the idea.)

>ProtoCreativity (Jackie Chan/McGyver. 3000 philistines with a donkey jawbone? How about 5000 orcs with a pocketknife taped to a 10ft pole. Not just weapons though, of course. Jerry-Rigging: the Discipline. "Waaagh!" if you have to call it that.)

>PhysioKinesis (moving stuff with muscles, even if you shouldn't be logically able to, see example Hercules lifting a river and dragging it through a stable. Also things like kicking so fast your leg ignites, or stomping so hard you cause an earthquake.)

>Metabolism (poison negation, health regenning, that thing popeye the sailor does when he eats spinach)

>PhysioPortation (gotta go fast. Hulk jumps. casually walking through objects kool-aid man style)

>Influence (These muscles passed down through the Armstrong family for generations are not just for good looks. They do however, do that job stunningly as well. also Loyalty and Intimidating. Heroic resolve.)
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>>65735042
I doubt that OP was quoting /jp/
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>>65738512
I mean... Alucard definitely could have taken her.

And Simon was Toe to Toe with Alucard.

So... I dunno, pretty even fight between all three.

Though of note, none of them are remotely normal people, and D&D fighters can't do anything remotely like what Simon Belmont can.

So unless we call him weebshit, uhhh, that's proof that D&D fighter is way lower in capabilities than it should be, and not in a numbers way.

Also, that there totally should be a full martial equivalent to sorcerer's full caster for people with freaky heritages like Alucard.
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>>65735818
Sir Kay could shoot beams of fire from his hands and grow twice his size.
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>>65748658
>Alucard definitely could have taken her
Debateable.
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>>65748602
https://www.star-registration.com/
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>person that worked hard and spends their entire life relatively frail but eventually can control powers at such a scale and range of possibilities it borderlines on demi-godhood
>another person can swing a sword real good
>people will unironically claim swordguy should be more powerful
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>>65748605
Can't you make it that through training the body the martial gets clarity of mind and sheer willpower to shrug of magic effects, almost like a mental shield. Basically a more powerful magic is required to affect a more powerful martial.
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>>65748658
Alucard edged out Trevor. Sypha was literally their carrier. She was a bit ridiculous with the castle.
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>>65748756
(You)
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>>65748777
The castle feat required a good chunk of study and all of her concentration to cast over a non-insignificant time. In a straight battle royale, she dies first if the boys don't get into a dick measuring contest.
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>>65748713
her only spells are fire and ice.

she does wonders with just those two.

but that's all she has.

And normal human reaction timing.
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>>65748847
>And normal human reaction timing.
I disagree. Her fights with the various night critters and vampires are pretty clear indications she can keep track of fuckers with a similar level of competency as her buds. Only time I can recall her having been caught off-guard was when she got stoned before the start of the plot.
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>>65748843
>>65748847
You're not being very convincing.
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>>65748843
>In a straight battle royale, she dies first if the boys don't get into a dick measuring contest.
Cringe attempt at humor in a cringe attempt at assuming something without an ounce of a basis for it.
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>>65748891
>>65748904
What has she done that can be pulled off in a fight that Alucard and Trevor would both have no answer for? I'm not saying that she's unimpressive or anything, as her castle feat is blatantly more power than anything the boys could ever pull off. What I am saying is that a fight between the party members is not something she can just win by nuking everything instantly.
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>>65748971
Not them, but when has she even sparred with Trevor or Belmont? You only have Belmont and Alucard to go off of. Her answer to close range combat was pretty efficient.
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>>65748971
>a fight between the party members is not something she can just win by nuking everything instantly.
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>>65749004
All we got is that close range combat fight with the vamps and I'm not convinced that's enough to decisively beat Alucard and/or Trevor. At best she's got a 50/50 shot in 1v1 with one of the boys cus it's not like they're in any short supply of combat effectiveness.
>>65749032
>a character without sufficient nukes can totally nuke her comparably competent mates with the nukes she doesn't have
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>>65749105
Anon. I don't care what you say. She, at a sufficient range, is going to smoke either of them. Her overall potency is just way above theirs. Her reaction time saved Trevor from getting his face melted, first of all. Her stat block is already indicative the jew-producers wanted her to have the most 'ooomph' of the three -- and it shows.
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>>65748764
that would be under metabolism.

and 5e fighter does get this actually. Indomitable. it just comes on late, and is uses a day.

BUT okay, Imma say right now, that alone doesn't work for the same reason 3.5 monks aren't the magekillers they're clearly designed to be. Give it all the DPS vs low AC, movespeed, teleportation, and spell-avoiding and -negating protection you want, it still loses to Force Cage or even just Fly.
>>
What i dont understand is the assumption that ever wizard is capable of instantly getting their hands of every spell in existence. 3.5 and PF, the biggest offenders of 'this is broken beyond repair', still has the restriction of only starting with so many first level spells, and being able to claim like 2 spells of your choosing from your available level lists. sure, you can gain additional spells as you adventure, but its also mentioned that other mages guard their knowledge jealously, so it should normally be a bitch and a half to get new stuff without working your ass off. it's hard to be a all powerful wizard with only a couple spells under your belt, unless you're intentionally building to be a dick, and even then there should be an affect for using a lot of them if your gm isnt an idiot
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>>65748277
yeah, thats true i suppose
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>>65749129
She carried the team with her smarts and her big ritual magic, not by blasting critters so much harder than Trevor or Alucard could kill them to death with their weapons. Sure she might have gotten more assist kills than the other two by blasting into their fights, but I'm not convinced that's just because "mage = better" because by virtue of hanging back as she's a squishy mage, she's got more flexibility in choosing her battles.
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>>65748605
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>>65749189
Even with only those 2 spells per level, a wizard can still do a lot of shit.

And also, in 3.5 you could independently research new spells with time and gold.
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>>65749287
could maybe use some better terms and phrasing, but... yeah. In the right direction.

Also, this could be named something about Exalted and still be 100% correct.
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>>65748605
Martials do have that- it's called ki.

I don't think the monks should be the only ones to have access to it- monks should be the 'full caster' version of ki, spending it to deflect fireballs or run on walls, and then martials should have less ki per day or something like that.

I mean, the Battle Master has superiority dice anyway, which is basically the same thing.
>>
>>65749480
you should read flex mentallo

https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Flex-Mentallo/Issue-1?id=88176
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>>65749639
It's literally just racism.
Martials don't have ki because qi is an "asian" thing, but monk is an "asian" class so it gets access to chi.
A decent western equivalent would be Mana (though it's STILL a borrowed concept), but unfortunately that too has been married to thing it shouldn't have to be married to as well (spellcasting magic).
I would wager that even if you used mana in it's original polynesian conception (it's just a thing Important People have, and the more important you are the more of it you have) as a resource to do supernatural feats, dndrones would still whine that it's just spellcasting
>>
>>65749927
Use Greek term Pneuma instead. Some anon suggested it in one of these threads. It's basically "breath of life/spirit".
>>
>>65750087
>>65749927

How about Haki?
>>
>>65749927
>it's just a thing Important People have, and the more important you are the more of it you have

Fate?
Destiny?
>>
>>65732849
Martials only exist to impregnate Casters.

prove me wrong.
>>
>>65734907
>Have you tried-
>oh, you have?
>Pathfinder isn't a suitable replacement sir.
ftfy
>>
>>65750433
Male casters? Female martials?
>>
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>>65733255
Have you tried playing 4e?
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>>65750468
>not futa martials and female casters
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>>65750485
after i figured out healing surges, i unironically enjoyed 4e. it was different, and sure it was designed with fighting on grids in mind, but me and my friends had a blast with just scribbling shitty battle maps and finding proxies for models and enemies
>>
>>65750468
Did he fucking stutter?
>>
>>65732849
give me 2 or more option of non combative action in coherence with my attack. Battle master is a warlock reskin and it look great.
>>
>>65732849
Have you tried playing D&D?
>>
>>65733526
Genesys
>>
>>65743802
>Most druids always turn out to be fucking useless for this very reason
Bullshit, and a player being retarded while playing a Druid is fundamentally different from a player being retarded while playing a Monk. A bad Monk is going to be bad on every level forever while a bad Druid is going to be able to fix themselves easily down the line due to being able to pick better Wild Shape forms at any time or repick their spell loadouts or animal companions. Doesn't help that one of them needs a highly specific feat setup to even work while the other works fine without feats aside from Natural Spell. A high ceiling doesn't imply a low floor.
>>
>>65749159
Why martial can`t break the force cage with their own muscles? Why they can`t leap hight enough to grapple the flying mage?
>>
>>65750555
Easy system for the GM to run. That's it's redeeming quality. I never understood the non-combat rules complaints, but that's a thing apparently.
>>
>>65752497
You severely overestimate your average player. They're not going to stumble upon anything good if they don't know how to make use of it. If a player says he's going druid, expect him to be milktoast as fuck.
>>
>>65743832

>Sandbags
>Bulletproof vests
>Armor plated vehicles

How are you even sentient when you're this unobservant?
>>
>>65743072

Spirits are *why* assault cannons and phosphor grenades exist, and if I need a whole gun and/or warcrimes just for spirits, they are bigtime players
>>
>>65750485

Based "Have you tried playing 4e?" poster.
>>
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>>65748384
don't bully the droids you fuck
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>>65748904
this whole conversation iss
>my favorite character is da bess!
of course there's little basis.
You have brought nothing the others haven't.
>>
>>65737922
Martials should have ki though, is basically physical and spiritual energy
>>
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>>65748605
>>
Why do threads like these exist. And why do you retards alwys give in to them?
>>
>>65750485
You are LITERALLY worst than Trump...
>>
>>65757450
The consensus is split, with a whole bunch of people in the middle. All with different experiences. I will say the supremacy is overblown, as few people are autistic enough to run them optimally.
>>
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>>65756415
Bluto on the other hand is some kind of immortal to survive all that.
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>>65758765
The point is valid, but this specific argument is garbage. The diagram is unsubstantiated, and very misleading considering every class has access to features other classes do not. Nor do options available factor onto an actual character sheet. You have to specialize into something, you cannot specialize in everything. This post is also sweeping the reality of hit dice, saves, AC, damage, and limited spell slots under the rug.

UMD is also a skill. Gold limits it, but it does pokes a hole in that balloon of yours.
>>
>>65757860
I find way more prevalent Cleric and Druid supremacy than Wizard one, Wizards seem to be hard to build imo, Clerics and Druids, specially Druids? not that much. I've seen a Cleric outrage a Barbarian in PF, to the point of being a better martial beast.

I also seen Rogues and Monks be literally so behind the curve it wasn't funny for the players, and they tried to be optimal, classes suck anyway.

As a GM I help anyway I can to the players, want to be a martial artist? would you mind playing an unarmed swordsage instead? or a sohei/enlightened paladin? maybe giving them some magical enchantments to compete with their magic items being unfairly expensier. Want to be a Druid? well, seeing there're some subpar classes in the game you have to choose between turning into beasts or having a pet. Stuff like that.
>>
>>65759235
UMD is a skill for some classes. It costs double and only can have up to half ranks in 3.5 if it isn't class skill making it a moot point on your part. In PF if you don't have UMD class skill you already start with a -3 compared to those who have it, it's also Cha dependant so MAD classes (who misteriously tend to be martials) already have even less...and then you have 2+Int martial classes, who know are essentially taxing themselves even more.

I had a Monk with 10 Cha with UMD...I couldn't even activate level 1 wands at 10th level half the time.
>>
>>65734366
>For some reason non casters still get angry because that's weebshit
I don't get this complaint. Why the fuck is "weebshit" a problem when one faggot is shooting hadokens already?
>>
>>65759276
I've messed around with Rogue and Monk in PF, and it's entirely possible to break the system with these classes.

Rogues need to be clever.
* If you fight fair, you're doing it wrong.
* If you engage in open combat, you're doing it wrong.
* If you don't do your own thing for 30 minutes, you're doing it wrong.

Use stealth and sleight of hand to the fullest. Scout out the enemy. Sabotage. Coup de grace them in their sleep. Find alchemical items, rare poison, and boost your UMD at later levels. Go for intimidate, support your group as best you can - especially your casters. You quite literally need to steal the game and make it yours to be useful as a Rogue. If you play it like a fighter, it's going to suck. And most do. It's playing the game on hard mode. There is also a mouser / vexing dodger sheningans, but that's quite niche.

Monk can do the most DPR as melee (Monk of the Four Winds), ranged (Zen Archer), and grappling (n/a). Couple that with naturally high defenses and improved movement speed, and they can be among the most terrifying martials. This isn't a pissing contest of martials vs. casters, because fuck contingency loops.
>>
>>65759630
Not him, but is rare in my cases, we never seem to reach 10th level (when monk gets medusa wrath and his damage starts to be good), also most GMs I find are fucking Scrooge McDuck with magic items, specially monk monk magic items

Last game I've played a monk I had literally only a single +1 ring, +1 cape, +2 belt at 9th level, finding stuff like brazzers of armor, AoMF, or even monk weapons +X was impossible due rolls. Meanwhile the Barb had +2 Breastplate, +2 Falchion (in which he focused and got imp crit which spiked his damage into literally doubling mine, absurd)...I started to not doing anything on purpose on combats and the Barb still cake walk the encounters together with the Witch like fucking nothing.

You know, if you don't like monks in your NotAsia setting, just tell me instead of passive agressively giving me shit.

And previous campaign in where I played a monk wasn't much better, though that was on me for playing a Dex monk.
>>
>>65757730
Being worse than the best still gives me a lot of options, I'll take that as a compliment
>>
>>65753368
monks HAVE boosted jumping power. it's not enough.

>>65753368
>Why martial can`t break the force cage with their own muscles?
Literally nothing breaks force cages, for whatever reason.
>>
>>65760088
>reach the level in where I can jump 25 meters long
>caster has flight pretty much at will
Why even bother
>>
>>65743802
Being a brand new DnD 5e player, I rolled up a Loxodon Druid using Circle of Shepherd at lvl 10. DM gave me a magic staff that let me use Wall of Thorns once a day, I had no idea what I was doing with spells and I still outdamaged the other 3 players (orc barb-druid, dwarf fighter, dragonborn barb) despite not knowing what I was doing. My guy feels pretty OP despite me being a greenass noob. Is there any way to mitigate this? It's a really fun group that I get along well with, I don't want to be an asshole and create bad blood by outshining the veteran players
>>
>>65735175
They should be even footing.
>>
>>65760212
And you're playing 5e which is way more balanced than 3.5.

In 3.5 you could turn into beasts, you had a beast pet able to compete with fighters/barbarians and you could still cast as well as any full caster. And people say here that isn't OP.
>>
>>65760212
also PRÖÖÖÖÖÖH
>>
>>65760250
:DDD
>>
>>65760212
5e is very different. I say don't sweat it. Veteran doesn't mean much either. Likely they aren't going for optimal builds, rather trying something unique.
>>
>>65760143
Exactly.

PF Monks at level 20 have:
>Best touch AC in the game
>Improved Evasion
>resistance to Enchantment
>immunity to disease and poisons and aging
>Spell-resistance
>highest unmounted movespeed for gap closing
>teleportation, for gap-closing even with obstacles like summons or walls
>slowfall near walls and minimum of +40 on acrobatics to jump
>immunity to effects that target humanoids but not outsiders
>3/4 BAB but built-in TWF chain with size-increasing damage dice equivalent to dual-wielded Huge bastard sword, so absolutely shreds low AC targets
>a 1/week fortitude save Save or Die.
>fort-based save or stun [level] per day, or blind, or temp paralyze.
>improved grappling, OoAs, OoA avoidance, or stunning.

They are designed to be 10/10 magekillers.
And yet, they are widely recognized as one of the worst classes.

Because nothing can be mageslayers in 3.P, and it's too narrowly minmaxed to deal with anything else well.
>>
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>>65732849
>reinforced meaningless and irrelevant debates that distract from the exercise
>>
>>65733499
In the first episode she roasts a pack of demons while the martials waste time fucking around. I love how smug she is. She's all too aware her party members are retards.
>>
>>65760212
>Circle of Shepherd
>so not even a damage-focused subtype
>loxodon, so tanky, but no additional damage.
>druid spells

How are you out-damaging them?

Are you just like, 15 minute workday so you can nova every fight?

Or are they built really weird? I see actual orc not half-orc there, so I feel like that's a possible.
>>
Samurai Jack, Hercules, Goemon from Lupin, Kratos, aren't mages.
>>
>>65759630
All your suggestions need heavy optimization and knowing all spellists better than any wizard. I did pull off something similar in 3.5 with swift hunter (killed a whole group of enemies in the forest that was by levels equal to our party) but it's fucking hard and you literally feel drained due to how much shit you need to keep in your head.
>>
>>65760143
I had a DM to ban ToB due to jumping maneuvers.
>>
>>65760617
>They are designed to be 10/10 magekillers.

All my monks died to mages. In fact, my last monk, 2 months ago, unchained btw, died to a mage with literally no chance of survival. Blood hag btw.
And my touch AC (22) she auto hit with fucking 4+.

Also slowfall is probably the most useless feature in the game, in 10 years of 3.PF I only used it twice, and no, is not an hyperbole. And I could have either walk down the stairs or use a rope instead.

>>3/4 BAB but built-in TWF chain with size-increasing damage dice equivalent to dual-wielded Huge bastard sword, so absolutely shreds low AC targets
Flurry of misses is actually real. And mages have instant teleports (so don't provoke) and instant Force spheres (don't provoke either).

Stun is crap, 10 years of gaming.
>>
>>65760781
>Kratos
divinely powered herald of a god, so... war cleric?
>>
>>65760886
Most wizards in myths are also demigods or much weaker than D&D ones.In fact many gods don't compare to D&D casters.
>>
>>65760886
Paladin if you want to go that route. Cratos doesn't pray, doesn't know the rites, he only knows war and combat.
>>
>>65760994
Paladin of Vengeance? Makes sense
>>
>>65760787
Yeah, rogue is stupid hard to play optimally. The net result doesn't hold a candle to the potential of casters, but plot wise you dominate the game. Not a great idea to hold the other players hostage at the table in hindsight, but it can be done.
>>
>>65760847
>Blood hag
Inflict Moderate (DC16 Will for 2d8+8) or Scorching Ray (+6 touch attack 2x 4d6)?

Either way, none of that seems remotely like an auto-hit. The dice were very against you. Possibly also the DM, depending on the CR difference.
>>
>>65761176
Yeah, it becomes entirely "I'm going to go on my own, and make 10000000 billion rolls to which you'll make 1000000 billion contested rolls". A caster can do the same, spending several spells and rolling almost never
>>
>>65761265
>+6 touch attack 2x 4d6)
You're looking at the wrong creature.
Blood hag has +18 attack (both touch and normal because finesse) and deals 3x 4d6.
3 bite/claw attacks that deal 2d4+6 each, again with a +18. All with grab (grapple +22)
Ini +10
Fly 60
Also self immolation (DC 18 dealing 8d6) and then turns into firey gaseous form dealing 3d6 (DC 20) to anyone standing next to her.
>>
>>65761401
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/monstrous-humanoids/hag/hag-blood/

NOPE. Your DM just wanted you dead.
>>
>>65761442
>Nope
>Attack bite +18 (2d4+4), 2 claws +18 (1d6+4 plus grab) right there
>Immolation right there
>Init right there
>Scorching ray is 1 ray plus 1 additional ray every 4 levels, being 8th level means 3 rays
>Hits with +18 again because finesse
Are you blind? sincerly asking
>>
>>65761527
And I forgot, blood drain (1d2 con) at the end of her turn if you're grappled
>>
>>65761527
>1 ray plus 1 additional ray every 4 levels
ABOVE LEVEL 3
>>
>>65761527
22 Dex is only a mod of +6.

How does it have +18?
>>
>>65761594
From 12 BaB
>>
>>65761265
Its Scorching Ray is +18 and hits 3 times. I don't know why you think BAB doesn't apply to it but it does.
>>
>>65761594
Or could be even this that is stronger
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/monstrous-humanoids/hag/blood-hag-kp/
>>
>>65761570
>CL 12th
So 3 rays because you get your 3rd at CL 11.
>>
>>65761570
>>65761442
So not only you're blind, you're also stupid. Woah
>>
>>65761609
why does level 8 have 12BAB? that's greater than full progression

.
>>
>>65761737
Because CR is not the same as Level you humongous twat. Look at its motherfucking HIT DICE
>>
>>65735128
If virtually anything special like that is “magic”then what isn’t?
>>
>>65761737
>level 8
Put me in the screencap.
>>
>>65735262
>the Abrahamic god was defeated by a mundane thing (Iron Chariots)
>he didn’t read the part where they fucked iron chariots
>memeing about shit the book itself disagrees with
>>
>>65761675
so he was facing off against a caster a minimum of I'm guessing 4 levels higher than his character, and he's surprised he died?
>>
>>65761800
I was facing a caster of CR 8-9 creature, with my character of 8th level and his party of also 8th level characters which is fair encounter. Are you even trying anymore?
>>
>>65761823
Use your eyes, I know you have at least 1
>>
>>65761772

>>65761527
>being 8th level means 3 rays


>>65761794
>the word of an omnipotent being that can ensure it's word is perfect contradicts with itself
>>
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>>65761823
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>>65761862
How does it have BAB 12 as an 8th level char? this is bullshit.
>>
>>65761851
>he literally didn’t read the part where they fucked 900+ iron chariots
>memeing about a book you can’t even read right
>>
>>65761827
is there a single character in your party that could have survived that scorching ray barrage?

nobody is going to have more touch ac than a monk, so guaranteed hit PERIOD, and 12d6 is an average of 42hp, which at level 8 should be all or most of any given character's HP. Like maybe if you had a Barb that pumped Con that would only be half-ish. But anything d8 HD or lower is just straight dying to that. (4+2)*8= total 48
>>
>>65732849
Is it ethical to assault your DM?
>>
>>65761906
Right. in judges 1 he is with them, but they can't win because iron chariots.

in judges 4, against a different foe, the iron chariots were a joke.

that's a contradiction.
>>
>>65761966
>he is with them, but they can't win because iron chariots
>he actually doesn’t know shit about the language
>he reads anything semi-historical from thousands of years ago without knowledge on linguistics
>>
>>65761906
>tfw you can't beat 900 chariots for over 20 years, until you muster a force of over 10,000 foot soldiers and ambush from the high ground on a slope the chariots can't charge up in counterattack so they're sitting ducks.
>>
>>65735262
That isn’t what the verse says. Not in the original Hebrew. The Hebrew says “And the Lord was with Judah, and they drove out the inhabitants of the mountains; but they could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, for they had iron chariots.” And the Targum Yonatan (a paraphrase/commentary) explains this was because they had sinned.
>>
>caring about getting the biggest numbers in a game of make believe
This is like that "infinity+1" kid back in grade school.
>>
>>65762121
>a paraphrase/commentary
if you follow those ancient hebrew commentaries they'll say all kinds of things.

they are blatantly not inspired word.
>>
>>65761939
That's the point, monks aren't real mage killers. A superstition/dragon totem barb does it better.
>>
>>65762172
>caring about actually getting to play when the bigger kids are hogging the ball, not even intentionally, they're just bigger, is somehow badwrong

You're right, I should be happy to be an effective audience member in a game I'm allegedly playing.
>>
>>65762187
It's clearer in the original language and context. Those commentaries are for clarification.
>>
>>65762196
so the moral of the story is, you can't counter 3.P mages, no matter how much your kit is tailored to that, and instead, the only way to handle them is to meet whatever they threw at you with your face and still keep trucking anyways
>>
>>65762266
Yeah, 3.PF mages are bullshit and other classes do the "magekiller" better than monks.

Is never a matter of AC, is a matter of how many HPs and ways of resisting energy, which barbs get it among their class options. They also get to fly and hit harder and more precisely than Monks.
>>
>>65762257
what is not clear about

>god was with them
>he is the reason they beat the other inhabitants
>but they failed against one of those groups
>because they had prototanks

And if it's about sin, then why is that not mentioned anywhere else in the account? that's the kind of thing scripture loves to harp on. Every other time that happens you get like prophets involved and they root out the sinner(s) and there's some big flash show of killing them, it's all settled in a week tops and they go right back at it and win that time.

For it to just be glossed over like it was nothing? VERY inconsistent with the pattern.
>>
>>65762100
>he doesn’t consult the original language when reading anything that underwent numerous translations and linguistic changes
>he doesn’t verify anything related to the original language, context, etc
>>
>>65761862
>D10
>full bab
How is that thing considered a caster?
>>
>>65762319
>And if it's about sin, then why is that not mentioned anywhere else in the account?
Consider doing as >>65762019 said and understanding the original language. These commentary is to clarify on subjects that the original language was more clear upon. It’s trying to minimize information loss via translation.
>>
>>65762295
but see, 3.5 barbarians couldn't do all that. So prior to paizo involvement, Monks were the clear mageslayer intended class, and just failed at that job miserably because you can't preempt 3.5 casters.
>>
>>65762321
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/judges/1-19.htm

So was - Yhwh - with - Judah - and they took possession - of the hill country - but - they could drive out - not - the inhabitants - of the lowlands - because - they had - chariots - of iron.

There is literally nothing ambiguous about any of the definitions of these words.

it's all right there in black and white.

>>65762358
>These commentary is to clarify on subjects that the original language was more clear upon. It’s trying to minimize information loss via translation.
or more often, make up reasonings post-hoc for things that don't make sense.
>>
>>65762528
>Westminster Leningrad Codex
>>
>>65762623
>oldest complete manuscript of the hebrew bible

Aleppo Codex is missing most of the Torah, what do you even want me to do here? You're just making up potential excuses now you don't even know if they're true.
>>
>>65743633
>Insists on being a weeaboo magic superhero and being stronger than everyone else
>But everyone else are the chuuni
Lol
>>
>>65744686
And anything beyond the listed effects is entirely up to the whim of the GM
>Heh silly martials, I wish down a star to destroy the bbeg and all the bullies who mocked me!
>You manage to bring forth a chunk of star that instantly vaporises you before dissipating
>REEEEEEEEE
>>
>>65748756
>25 KB PNG
>>person that worked hard and spends their entire life relatively frail but eventually can control powers at such a scale and range of possibilities that they can light a candle from across a room
>Declares themselves a god and shits their pants in fury when told they can't control all reality
>>
In Pathfinder, or 3.5, can anyone sell me on how a level 20 caster would take down a monster with infinite AC, Touch AC, Saves, SR, Attack, and Damage?

Assuming the caster wins initiative, how does he go about taking the monster down? What buys him more turns? Begin 50 feet apart, open field.
>>
>>
>>65764204
gygax was a weeb
>>
>>65764226
Found the Pathfinder player.
>>
>>65764204
>-When enraged, hair spikes up on end and generate an aura of fire that will cause water to boil on contact
Who's that guy?
>>
>>65764204
>>65764226

No, you the person who knows that "Super-Martials" exist in western myth/folklore.
>>
>>65750407

More like charisma and that nebulous X-factor that makes one person "more" than another.
>>
>>65764182
If that's all they've got, they'll die to summoned allips and shadows eventually because they can't hit them. Trapping them in Acid Fog repeatedly will also kill anything that doesn't have a direct counter to it.
>>
>>65764715
Interesting take. What about defenses for the caster? Is it possible for them to survive a turn while being within 50 feet, or is it always teleport?
>>
>>65764801
Block line of effect or ranged attacks and you're good, hence the acid fog.
>>
>>65764870
Technically passes. I'll give you that.

The shadows / allips will deal ability score damage with a natural 20. Only answer to that is ability score restoration and ghost touch, but the war of attrition will be lost if the caster is not dealt with.

Given a Goz Mask and Acid Resistance, it could handle the acid fog. It's entirely possible to block line of sight through walls, still. Ultimately a very drawn out fight that could very well end in a draw.
>>
>>65764204
What this shows is that anime is truly a modern "mythology", an example of contemporary people spinning stories from the same part of the brain used by these ancient forebear cultures. Superheroes also count although anime is more tremendously on the same level as the original myths.

Once acknowledged, readers with different preferences can begin to assort themselves into categories with more meaning. For instance, someone who wants a story set in ancient greece with greek heroes but a more modern level of subdued fantasy would classify themselves as wanting a modernised reinterpretation of the mythos, and not claim to be "truly" representing it and defending it from "animification".



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