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> Quantum mechanics proves we have free will
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The scientific consensus is that free will exists.
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>>10289242
It suggests we might. Get over it.
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>free will is important
Why do people care so much? Either you have it, or you don't and there's nothing you can do about it.
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>>10289253
>Either you have it, or you don't and there's nothing you can do about it.
Free will is a spectrum, and you can increase your will by exercising it.
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>>10289257
>you can increase your will by exercising it.
What if I was always destined to do that?
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>>10289251
> The scientific consensus is that free will exists
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>>10289252
No it doesnt wtf are you talking about. Axons from neurons are micrometers across and hundreds of micrometers apart from each other. That's way way too far for electrons tunnelling between them to matter statistically.
All of the macroscopic classical world is effectively deterministic and that includes everything on the size of cells, and since neurons are the smallest building blocks of conciousness, we can say with absolute certainty that free will does not exist at all.
This shouldnt however affect your life in the slightest. According to Marcus Aurelius even if, against his belief, everything is predetermined by atoms, you can still live a life of virtue and should strive to be a good person.
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>>10289265
>What if I was always destined to do that?
Then compatiblism.
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>>10289282
You took that a lot of irrelevant directions. Our intention and attention may very well be an actual force that influences probabilities at the quantum level. We may have x amount of choice. Or we may live in a deterministic universe. "Effectively deterministic" means nothing and I said nothing about virtues. I try to act sustainably because I can. Not because I should. It's that simple.
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>2019
>still being a small-minded determinism faggot
Fit for being a human calculator and nothing more. You lack the capacity for high-level thinking.
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>>10289297
>I have unfalsifiable hard opinions
>other people are dumb huh.

>>10289253
>sci
>why try to understand the universe?

>>10289257
Totally missing the incompatibility of determinism and choice

>>10289288
Gee thanks for all that clarity you just brought to the discussion.
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>>10289297
>believing in magic means you have high level thinking
there is 0 basis on which free will could exist
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>>10289307
>>believing in magic means you have high level thinking
Who are you quoting?
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>>10289257
Another dipshit mystic drawing arbitrary lines between what behavior is and isn't biologically motivated or physically caused. Find me an uncaused effect in the body. Then we'll talk.
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>>10289311
You, fuck face
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>have to make a decision
>brain deterministically decides on a choice
>body carries out the actions under the brain's direction

Feels compatible man
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>>10289323
I don't think you understand what determinism means.
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>>10289325
No, I think I do.
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>>10289328
No, no, I don't think you do.
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>>10289330
Okay.
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>>10289323
Then there was no "I" who chose. And no "choice" for "I" to make.
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>>10289334
There was a brain which existed as a subset of the universe. And if the brain had been different, a different outcome could have happened. Good enough for me.
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define free will
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>>10289338
>I like my freewill like I like my steak, undercooked.
Lmao.
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>>10289305
>the incompatibility of determinism and choice
that is just a meme
There is no difference between indeterminism and determinism as far as having opportunities in this life.
https://youtu.be/EJsD-3jtXz0?t=30m
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>>10289364
That's just changing the goalposts. Free will that exists within the parameters of determinism isn't free will. It's a sense of free will. But it is not the abiliry to step outside of, and effect, events set in motion. There is no Cartesian "self" to do said choosing.
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>>10289341
Exactly. What's referred to as "free will" by people saying determinism is in compatible with free will, is the ability for some Cartesian "self" to step outside of material events set in motion and effect them.

What's referred to as "free will" by people who claim free will exists, or is compatible with determinism, is either unfalsifiable quantum assumptions or the ability of a deterministic brain to create the illusion of "self" and "choice".

Its just avoiding the argument. Define the "self" who is doing the choosing. There is no such entity. When you can find for me a place, presumably in the body or brain, where material things happen for material reasons, THEN we can talk free will. Until then, shut the fuck up about it.
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>>10289384
>where material things happen for material reasons
*non-material reasons. God dammit.
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>>10289373
It's just admitting that infinity doesn't exist in the real world.
Just like physics can't find a true 'nothing' in space either, quantum foam if nothing else. Both 'nothing' and infinity are math, not physics.
Put another way, we are all robots, but robots can do much more than usually is thought.
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>>10289384
>shut the fuck up about it
but i don't want to
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>>10289242
Autist only hate the concept of free will because they are unwilling to accept that they themselves ruined their lives.
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>>10289288
people actually believe all 3 of those excluding libertarianism obviously. What the NPC fuck are you guys retarded or just depressed?
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>>10289296
>Our intention and attention may very well be an actual force
No they may not. What gave you that idea? Thats some weird half scientific idea from esoteric people with absolutely no idea about QM.
Just because we dont know how wave function collapse works exactly, doesnt mean that you can just explain it by completely arbitrary, completely classical things like neuronal activity. Occams razor, bro.
>"Effectively deterministic" means nothing
It means "statistically deterministic", seriously bro come back when you know at least a little bit of QM beyond normie tier broscience. It means QM effects may be responsible to let a single electron out of trillions behave nonclassically, which does not influence macroscopic effects like flow of charge through a conductor at all.
>I said nothing about virtues. I try to act sustainably because I can. Not because I should.
Well honestly if it helps you sleep at night... Ignorance is bliss, and I guess we cant hope to expect more from the general population.
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>>10289323
>Rock has to make decision to fall down or not
>Gravity deterministically decides on a choice
>Rock carries out the action under gravities direction
Congratulations, you just removed all sensible meaning from the words conciousness and choice.
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>>10289895

So adding together a bunch of tiny rocks (atoms) into a brain magically creates "choice" breaking the most fundamental rule of cause-and-effect?
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>>10289947
No
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You're all retarded, quantum mechanics has nothing to do with free will, its just related to chemical and physical phenomenoms.

The fact that you decide to do something because you're under the influence of a completely random thing means you have no free will.

We do have free will, and we cannot tell where reality starts or ends, get over it and go on.
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>>10289242
>time exists
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>>10289253
This!
Philosophy has been proven to be a scam and a fraud!
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>>10289947
>the most fundamental rule of cause-and-effect?
There's no "fundamental rule of cause-and-effect"
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>>10289797
muh npc. Everything in classical physics is provably deterministic. If you know all inputs in a closed system, you can calculate its exact outcome. The same goes for everything outside of the box and in the universe, which are just the same points on the sequence of causality. Quantum mechanics are either deterministic or probabilistic (random but within some parameters). And unless true randomness somehow permits a concept like free will, hard interdeterminism or determinism are true
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>>10289242
I hate it when you faggots use memes as an excuse to hide your inability to form proper arguments (or even basic sentences).
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>>10289242
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Would you rather have free will with the illusion of no free will or no free will with the illusion of free will?
Latter option seems inherently superior
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>>10290005
That's a nice philosophy you have there.



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