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ASOIAF Reincarnation Quest: A Male Powder Fantasy, Thread #21


Character Sheet: https://pastebin.com/RsQUNkkx
Future Updates and Shitposts (mainly the latter): https://discord.gg/H4z8wcy
Archive: http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/qstarchive.html?searchall=powder+fantasy
Feudal Assets: https://pastebin.com/AGjdBv9w


1st month of 290 AC

Armament – Pair of Flintlock pistols, an Imperial Sabre, Mastercrafted Flintlock Rifle
Protection – Commissar's Uniform with a Proofed Breastplate
Treasury - 7238 Gold Dragons
Debts - (10 000 GD debt owed to House Stark), (6000 GD owed to you by Stannis Baratheon)

On the last thread you ended up spending a week committing to a merciless slaughter of bears along with Lord Medger Cerwyn who turned out to be pretty good at locating the critters. In fact, the two of you killed so many that Lord Medger was given the honorary title of Master of Hunt. Needless to say, this proved the capability of your devices as hunting tools.

After having the secured loan and leaving a definite impression that they won't forget any time soon to the minds of highborn and smallfolk alike, you returned to your lands with knowledge you should have at least a few potential customers.

Upon your return however, you came to a realization that your paranoia over your very own council had come to bite you. With not being permitted to open letters addressed to you in your absence, you were left to an awkward position. The Prince was coming for his ship and you had little to no time to left prepare to receive him.

Thus, you acted swiftly and sent a raven to White Harbor asking for Lord Wyman Manderly to help you save face by having you act as his co-host rather risk receiving royalty without a feast prepared. A Favor you offered to repay by supplying his fleet with compasses.

When Prince Stannis finally arrived, he made it fairly obvious that this was no cordial visit. He had been dispatched to the region because the maritime crime on the region had gotten out of hand and he wasn't going to be leaving until things got under control.

Upon realizing this, Airis Fullaxe, the dispossessed Lady of the house which previously held your lands requested you a favor to plead her case to Prince Stannis so that she might gain vengeance for the friends she lost when her brother's former associates rebelled and sacked the castle, a request you facilitated by getting her a chance to talk with the Prince.

Seeing it as relevant to the completion of his task, Stannis decided to use her to seek for people of good repute in your lands which would be able to tell the faces of the lawbreakers."
>>
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It has been a day or so until you came back to your lands with a Royal War Galley with Stannis' men and Lady Airis Fullaxe. Whilst they began rounding up possible witnesses, you in turn had your own matters to deal with. Namely, it is yet another council meeting must sit through.

"While it is good that Prince Stannis has come to bring some order to the region Lord Arthur, without the Long Night looming over the town any longer, I'm afraid the prospect of pirate raiders might become a reality for us too."
"I am afraid that I have to agree with Ser Dan on this Lord Arthur."
Your Seneschal Manrel adds

"Your treasury is full of Gold and you've a precious few men to guard it. Without your ship intimidating the pirates, the possibility of your lands being seen as a target for them is an entirely likely prospect."
"Why would you say that?"
Your Seneschal continues
"With us having no alliances to provide us reinforcements, us having few men and being relatively isolated leaves us highly vulnerable. Even if they didn't attack our castle, the men could not possibly defend all of your holdings, thus representing a serious threat to our investments."

"Ser Dan, exactly how likely would you say this scenario of pirate raids is?"

He mulls it over a bit
"Well, so long as the Royal fleet is here, any massed raids should be highly unlikely as I'd expect Stannis to immediately pounce at the opportunity, but once they leave, who knows? Best play it safe. We either need another warship armed with cannons, better defenses so we can raise levies to handle it or simply get your house some more men-at-arms."

Maester Stuar speaks out
"That is where I differ in opinion with Ser Dan. I believe the most efficient path here is a diplomatic one. If things are as dangerous as they seem, it might be best to accept Lord Manderly's proposal of vassalage. Take the Lands he offers and his protection. You stand only to gain from it."

Your Barrister, Maester Preston who was quiet until thus far raises his hand.
"There is also the other option, one which doesn't require you to give up your status or to empty your treasury in hopes of defending it."
"And what option is that?"
"If you'd like, we could search a suitable match for you. Even the weakest house can weather the strongest armies with right alliances, provided their castle holds until the reinforcements arrive."

>[Military]: Agree with Ser Dan. You need a bigger military, even if it's money away from other things.
>[Fealty]: Agree with Maester Stuar. Being a Manderly bannerman isn't a bad thing, even if you have to provide him powder for it.
>[Alliance]: Agree with Maester Preston. Though an alliance works both ways, it's still something to consider.
>>
>>3091874
>>[Military]: Agree with Ser Dan. You need a bigger military, even if it's money away from other things.
We should try to be as self sufficient as possible. Besides, we need to train gunmen of our own anyway.
>>
>>3091874
>[Military]
Don't bother seeking any marriages until we are a powerful figure in our own right.
Unless we can marry somebody suitably powerful already.
>>
>>3091874
>[Military]

Relying on someone else's army to protect our lands is less than ideal, particularly when it will likely come with various conditions and inevitably serve the interests of other parties than ourselves. We're going to need our own force to defend our holdings sooner or later, and sooner is always better.
>>
>>3091874
>[Military]: Agree with Ser Dan. You need a bigger military, even if it's money away from other things.

I don't have any problems with Manderly, but giving up our shit that we JUST got? No thank you. We need to begin construction on an even bigger, better, more heavily armed ship. We're like Syndrome. Save all the best shit for ourself.
>>
I would like to present a counterpoint. While the home defense is essential and I would like to create a unit of Fusiliers anyway, accepting the Manderly deal is actually a pretty good idea.

The issue stems from the fact that we have limited Plots and Holding Slots. At the moment, we will need to build a Port to ship our goods and a Cattle holding to produce saltpeter. Those two holdings together run us 30 Wealth (10+10 for saltpeter and 10 for Port). However, since we lack the Holding Slots to fit in the Port, we will need to upgrade our Small Town to a Large Town to get the holding slot. This means we need to get 10 Land at the price of 20 Wealth (2:1 trade), running the total cost of the Port from 10 Wealth to 30 Wealth. Same with every other holding we want, since iirc we currently have none left over. Likewise, since the plains is full, we would need 20 Wealth to pop a Hamlet and get a slot. This means every Holding we want comes with an additional 20 Wealth price tag. This is, frankly, insanely expensive (6000 Gold for a Port).

So, getting Manderly to not only give us 3 new Plots plus cover the setup expenses (at least 60+ Wealth) is not a bad option. AND, his cut would be around 10% or so, in the form of taxes etc. Effectively, we gain a major boon in the short run and lose out a bit over time, however its mostly inconsequential for our purposes (might even out after a couple decades, profitable for Manderly in, say, 30 years?)

So, thoughts? Personally in favour of Manderly deal since although we sign off guns we have steam engines - something with near limitless potential.

>>3091874
>[Military]: Agree with Ser Dan. You need a bigger military, even if it's money away from other things.
>[Fealty]: Agree with Maester Stuar. Being a Manderly bannerman isn't a bad thing, even if you have to provide him powder for it.
>>
>>3091899
Also, we can sneaky-beaky other expenses into "setting up gun production" as well. He is basically sugar daddy until we can out-produce everyone.
>>
>>3091874
>>[Military]: Agree with Ser Dan. You need a bigger military, even if it's money away from other things.
>>
>>3091874
>[Military]: Agree with Ser Dan. You need a bigger military, even if it's money away from other things.
>>
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>[Military]

"Building up our military is best course of action. Neither marriage nor swearing fealty would not deal with the core problem and the stronger this house is, the better deals it can negotiate when it comes to being a bannerman and when looking for a marriage option."

Your Seneschal nods
"As you will my Lord. The Question then remains what sort of troops will you be purchasing.
Now, I cannot claim to be a military man myself to any stretch of the word, but I would personally like to recommend purchasing a warship to replace the Long Night. This would allow us to ship our goods safely and serve as deterrent against foes from the sea."

Ser Dan shakes his head.
"I think the best choice would be to invest in defenses on your lands themselves. We should build a tower which can host peasant levies and hold stores of produce secure in the event of a raid. Pirates go for easy prey."

Ser Bodrin strokes his moustache and gives his input
"Better would be a larger standing army in that case. More infantry with muskets means more ground they can cover and in the case of a larger force, it will mean our castle will be that much harder to break."

Captain Lucan shakes his head
"Larger cavalry force is what our lord needs. What point is there in more men if they cannot catch the raiders?"

You knock on the table with one of those small mallet things judges normally have and rejoiced in the opportunity to actually use the damn thing.
"Alright lads, settle down, settle down. You all make pretty good points, but we've only got room for so much more men and we are moving on a schedule.

Yes, a cavalry force would be swifter at striking at lawbreakers, but not as good at defending our castle or other fortifications.
Defensive towers would certainly make a holding more difficult to raid as all it's valuables would be behind sturdy walls.
Larger force of Gun Infantry and the walls of death they provide would certainly be better against a larger force, but not so much against skirmishers.
Warship on the other hand, whilst certainly excellent at patrolling a coast, the sailors it would require will have difficulty striking out against troops out of the reach of the ship's cannons."

>Review [Cavalry] options
>Review [Infantry] options
>Review [Navy] options
>Review [Structure] options
>>
>>3091923
Whilst in the long run we certainly want to build up our land forces and fortifications, we already have small numbers of musketeers and outriders, likely sufficient to fight off any raiders by land. We no longer have any naval assets whatsoever now that Stannis has the Long Night, and we know the bite is infested with pirates - any raids are likely to be coming from the sea and it would be wise to restore our ability to deal with them before they come ashore.

>Review [Navy] options
>>
>>3091927
Fair enough. Outriders keep our lands secure and the Long Night kept the waves clear. Might as well keep doing that. However, the new ship(s) we will get should still be useful to us in the long run as well.
>>
>>3091923
We should defend what we have first so that our industrial capabilities are not hindered.
>[Infantry]
>>
>>3091923
>Review [Navy] options
>Review [Structure] options

Build structure and raise levies buy boat and hire sailors from somewhere else
>>
>>3091951
At the moment we don't have any industrial assets to defend, and we don't - as far as we are aware - have any land-based enemies that 100 musketeers and 20 outriders or however many we have couldn't beat back. For now our main threat is maritime piracy, as Stannis has mentioned numerous times, so unless our men can walk on water we need a Long Night 2.0.
>>
>>3091973
The simplest defense holding takes a year to complete.

>>3091976
Powder mill is exposed, though I do support a ship aquisition. Also, more like Long Night 0.3.
>>
>>3091923
>Review [Navy] options
>>
>>3091980
Sooner we start the better, right?
>>
How does "Flawless Vision" sound for House Words?
>>
"In chains we find strength" It would nicely reflect your respect for knowledge
>>
>>3092012
You refused the chain though
>>
"Prepare for the unexpected"
Could be good house words
>>
>>3092014
The one in our pocket?
>>
Here's an unusual classic
our house words are " If "
>>
>>3092024
You might have the links, but you never donned the chain.
>>
>>3092071
too much of a health hazard if i remembered
>get caught and dragged into moving gears
>>
>>3092027
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=poz6W0znOfk
>>
>>3092012
"Mind over matter" can also be used as a battlecry and to taunt typical feudal types
>>
>>3092098
https://www.warhistoryonline.com/instant-articles/best-spartan-laconic-phrases-boldest-wittiest-lines-ever-recorded.html
>>
>"sieze the day"
>"listen, learn, grow"
>"decide, commit, succeed"
>"break the routine"
>"now or never"
>"keep moving foreward"
>"be the change"
>>
>>3091923
>Review [Navy] options
>>
>>3092168
>Waifus for Laifu!
>>
>>3091923
>>Review [Cavalry] options
take out the fuckers in the mountain while we build up
>Review [Navy] options
>>
>>3091923
>Review [Navy] options
>>3091976
>>3091980
More like the longer night
>>
>>3092181
>just do it
>don't let your dreams be dreams
>>
>>3091923
>Review [Navy] options
OR
>Review [Cavalry] options

I'm against structures because they'll take too long and we lack the funds to build enough to protect all of our future and present investments. I'm against infantry because having plenty of troops ain't possible with our limited population and would only be useful if the pirates remain around long enough for us to rally our troops.

Therefore cavalry, elite fast-reaction forces, seem like the logical end point to me. Plus, we can easily rent out a force of fast moving powder-cavalry to other lords.

We can use a boat to trade our goods as well as to actively hunt down pirate ships: taking any stolen cargo for ourselves and freeing any captives they might have. Question I have is how many and what kind of ship we can acquire? If we can get two trade-cogs and retrofit them with 8 guns aside that'd be a significant defence while granting us the ability to use them offensively / cycle them in and out of their role.

Plus, it'd allow us to train more troops in gunpowder use, cannons and naval combat. Three things we're going to want to focus on.
>>
>>3092214
>What's the worst that could happen?
>Every little helps
>Never knowingly undersold
>Because you're worth it
>It does exactly what it says on the tin
>Vorsprung durch Technik
>Because change happens
>Think different
>Normal sleep, super dreams.
>>
>>3092246
Volkswagen, das Auto
>>
>>3091872
House words: I'm lovin' it.
>>
Also, two things I think I should mention:

1) The long night ain't at max capacity for cannons, so we could see if the Prince wouldn't like to make a down-payment on another 6 cannons to bring it up to it's maximum load.

2) The price for us to produce a (light!) smoothbore cannon is 30 Gold Dragons (taken from equipping the ship, might be different now). These being the cannon currently equipped to the Long night.

So I'd say a reasonable price to sell them to the prince would be somewhere around 50 Gold Dragons perhaps? A 66% profit margin or at 51 Gold Dragons if you want a round 70% profit. Although in saying that we could sell them for 140% profit at 72 Gold Dragons given just how good they are and they'd probably still sell as fast as we could make them.
>>
>>3092487
Your lands do not possess a blast furnace for smelting iron nor do you have bloomeries.
>>
>>3092500
So what you are saying is we need a cannon foundry or other advanced metalworking facility?
>>
>>3092509
Cannons can be forged, but it will cost more.
Upside is that these cannons will weigh less however.
>>
>>3092522
>Cannons can be forged, but it will cost more.
How much more?

>Upside is that these cannons will weigh less however.
Not too important for ships but might be useful for field guns. Something to consider.
>>
As far as house words go, I still support either:
>Blood and Iron.
or
>The Path Untraveled.
>>
"A Whiff of Grapeshot"
>>
>>3092487
i thought we maxed out our cannon count on the Long Night before we sailed for war
>>
>Review Naval Options

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0eslPirRUY

>Sailor unit cost: 4 Power
While ships can move from point A to point B without any trained fighters, Sailors are the units that are both trained in the operation of the oceanbound vessels and fighting

>Standard Warship unit Cost: 7 Power
Contains 5 War Galleys.
These ships are designed for ramming, boarding and transporting troops over water, but not designed for open ocean travel or fording rivers.

>Battle Cogs Cost: 7 Power
Contains 5 Trading Cogs
First true sailing ships. Capable of covering long distances, but cannot perform ramming actions. They are equipped with towers in aft and stern, which provide a vantage point for defenders to shoot at one's foemen, although their fields of fire are limited to front and rear as these vessels largely rely on rowers to propel them in battle.

>Trade Carracks cost: 10 Power
Contains three Carracks
The First real evolutionary ancestor of the tall-masted sailing ships that most envision when thinking of ships and cannons. Though slow and lumbering, these Vessels are large and well defended as they are highly difficult to board and can fit majority of it's cannons on the sides.

>Galleon: 12 Power
Contains a single Galleon
A True Manowar built on your own specifications as a shipwright, you commission an elongated Carrack with it's aft castle lowered and with more sails. Though this order will certainly take the most time to complete, once done, the vessel will be the most powerful in the known world.
In fact, it is so powerful it actually counts as a defensive holding (allowing you to station troops on it without taking penalties to house fortunes and mount weaponry normally reserved for fortified positions).
It is perfectly capable of taking out castles with it's guns and carrying hundreds of men as an invasion force aboard to not only take a castle, but to hold it once it's taken.
Even a single one of these vessels would likely require the combined might of the fleets of several houses to take down with very few exceptions


You currently have: 7238 Gold dragons.
Gold Dragons can for Wealth at 200:1 Ratio
Wealth can be exchanged for power at 2:1 Ratio

Each point of Power = 400 Gold Dragons
>>
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>Hire Sailors units as Sea Guard? (Y/N) (1600G)

>Standard Warships? (Y/N) (2800G)
>War Cogs? (Y/N) (2800G)
>Trade Carracks? (Y/N) (4000G)
>Rule the Waves? (Y/N) (4800G)
>>
Alternatively you can say
>Nah this is too expensive and review another option
>>
>>3093464
I don't feel we sold ourship for enough now
>>
>>3093467
oh fuck read the options wrong thought those costs were all for one ship each
>>
>>3093461
>Hire Sailors units as Sea Guard? (Y) (1600G)
>Rule the Waves? (Y) (4800G)

big dick navy time
>>
>>3093464
can cogs have cannon cause I'm leaning on trade carracks as that's the only real way to use our gun powder advantage
>>
also how much will we need to get our industry up and running
>>
>>3093469
how much did we sell our ship to Stannis for again?
>>
>>3093477
6000
>>
>>3093473
Cogs have couple of cannons on their aft and forecastles, but these are limited in size.

War Galleys are primarily with swivel guns.

Carracks have cannons on aft and forecastles as well, but are bigger than cogs obviously.

Galleon basically has cannons stretching the whole distance and has aft and has more aft and stern cannons than a cog.
>>
If you are confused how Carrack cannon loadout works, just look at the picture.
>>3093461
>>
>>3093461
>Hire Sailors units as Sea Guard? (Y/N) (1600G)
Y
>War Cogs? (Y/N) (2800G)
Y
we can improve those later
>>
>>3093480
could 5 cogs and a Carrack make our money back trading shit in bravos and the free city's while we keep the other 2 in port to kill shit
>>
>>3093472
Fuck it, let's go all in with the first ship

>Hire sailor units as sea guard
>Rule the Waves
>>
People, please.

We need 6000 Gold for the goddamn Port, in addition to needing around the same to even have saltpeter on our lands. This means all available cash will need to be dumped on infrastructure and industry unless we take the Manderly deal.

Furthermore, we can build a Dreadnought down the line when we have steam power and mass steel going. A far better investment, in my mind, considering a Dreadnought can solo cities, not to mention fleets.

Besides, there is the option of using the cheaper ships as Sellsails once we have better options down the line. At the moment, it is essential we get a cheap solution so we have enough cash to set up the industry we are taking on massive debt in the first place.

>>3093461
>Standard Warships (2800G)
>>
>>3093497
makes sense but why war galleys cogs are the same price and have cannon meaning they can bombard shore lines
>Battle Cogs (2800)
>>
>>3093500
and this is my vote
>>
>>3093500
Since we are using them as a defensive tool, sending them away does not seem wise, even if its only a couple. And we lack enough cogs to make a real difference anyway, better leave transport up to the buyer for now. Besides, war ships are better as sellsails. And if we *do* need cogs later, we can always get them in a couple years, more than one if our business gets off the ground properly in the early stages.

Though the one thing I am not sure about is the sailors. They would be great to have but can we afford them?
>>
>>3093461
>Standard Warships? (Y/N) (2800G)


We can t afford anything else , and we have other priorities.


>>3093497
We really need that port is essential for our future industry and profits.
>>
Id still like to offer the Manderly Deal.

Some 12k Gold covering our expenses, 2 new plots of land, a Hamlet, 3 slots for Holdings (meaning while the port will still be 30 since we want it in the "capital", the cattle will fall from 40 to 20), Manderly handling distribution and defense and all that for 10% off the sale of gunpowder tech. Seems ok to me.
>>
>>3093518
I don t like the idea of being under Manderly, we have the potential of becoming far stronger and important.
>>
>>3093527
Sure, but in the next 10-15 years it is pure profit for us. Probably not going to live much past that anyway.
>>
>>3093531
I don't think anyone wants to be a Manderly bannerman.
>>
>>3093531
i don t think so.

I doubt we are going to engage in other battles so we should live more than that, especially for the projects we want to do or the techs we want to achieve.

They require time to do or research and since we are a noble we shouldn t have great problems with bad alimentaton, body training or diseases.
>>
>>3093533
Beyond the ego chipping, really not that many downsides. Merman and his family are pretty ok as well.

>>3093535
The deal with manderly is for the guns only though, meaning with no need to desperately search for funding or secure everything, we can spend more on tech upgrades and steam engines. Things he wont tax, mind you.
>>
>>3093527
eh it's not like it has to be a permanent thing.
If the war of the five kings rolls around all kinds of shit can happen
>>
>>3093461
Rule the Waves? (Y) (4800G)
>Hire Sailors units as Sea Guard? (Y) (1600G)
>>
>>3093533
I'd rather marry into a family that we know is going to die and inherit their lands before we decide to be subservient to another lord.
>>
>>3093541
Anon do you know how the butterfly effect works?
>>
>>3093542
If we haven't thrown off the entire path of Westeros by what we've done so far, our knowledge should be fine by the War of Five Kings.
>>
>>3093537
Manderly wants to have our production under is pocket, he will probably prefer if trade pass in White Harbor or important structures build there . He probably already understand the potential of our products and will probably not allow that Port Maw become more relevant than is city.
Instead having the possibility of talking at the same level it s more interesting, and Manderly will still buy our guns if he ask for them.
>>3093538
Without something written from an High Lord or the King, it s still relevant even when the war starts/ end ecc. ..
Afterall it s one of the most important things in feudal societys.
Plus we will probably do something where we can for avoid certain results in certain events. For example save Bran and leave 2 Lannisters inside a tower, for the king and everyone else to see.
>>
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>>3093461
>Hire Sailors units as Sea Guard? (Y) (1600G)
>Rule the Waves? (Y/N) (4800G)
As thought there were any other option https://youtu.be/yHNfvJc99YY

>>3093467
>>3093477
Do we even have the money from Stannis yet? Didn't he say he was going to send it to us once we'd cleared up the pirate problem?
>>
>>3093461
>Hire Sailors units as Sea Guard? (Y) (1600G)
>Rule the Waves? (Y) (4800G)
>>
God damnit anons.

WE DONT HAVE THE MONEY.

An on top of blowing all our cash on a vanity project that becomes instantly outdated when steam ships come around - never mention actual dreadnoughts - the fucking thing takes YEARS to build. How the fuck will we protect our seas meanwhile? Isnt this the whole point??
>>
>>3093461
>War Cogs
Anons please stop trying to bankrupt us for fucks sake.
>>
>Hire Sailors units as Sea Guard? (Y) (1600G)
>Rule the Waves? (Y) (4800G)

The Sailors can work as infantry until we get the ship up and running. Maybe we can get Manderlys to get us some more security in exchange for a contract this big?

His men would benefit from our learning when it comes to making these vessels. Actually, could we throw Long Night blueprints into the mix as well for a discount?
>>
>>3093461
>>Hire Sailors units as Sea Guard? (Y/N) (1600G)
>War Cogs
We'll build the dreadnought when we have tech and infrastructure to back it up.
>>
>>3093461
>Nah this is too expensive and review another option
Inf and Cav

You guys might be discounting just how much powder those cannons would take. It would be much cheaper just to hire some men, giving us much need capital for industry building.

Plus rows of musket death tend to scare off any evil doers.
>>
why are you goin for rule the waves ffs we arne't in a war so it's not like we are going to need it all we need is some patrol ships you dullards using half our cash fro the man o war is fucking irresponsible because can't generate income by itself it can't even trade because you have one ship that needs to stay in port and patrol
>>
>>3093633
and because it's one ship do you think it can patrol coast properly this is fucking stupid
>>
>>3093461
>War Cogs
>>
>Hire Sailors units as Sea Guard? (Y) (1600G)
>Rule the Waves? (Y) (4800G)

And for the record the manderly deal is terrible especially considering they turned somewhat traitor against the north using meta knowledge.
>>
>>3093769
Terrible *how*?
>>
>Hire Sailors units as Sea Guard? (Y) (1600G)
>Rule the Waves? (Y) (4800G)
We need a Horatio Nelson or a Sidney Smith as our captain.

Also we used the docks in Oldtown to build the long night, with our connections and shipbuilding prowess I'm sure we can Jew the price a bit.
>>
>>3093461
>Hire Sailors units as Sea Guard? (Y/N) (1600G)
>War Cogs? (Y/N) (2800G)
>>
Why are we blowing all our money on a ship when we still have to finish setting up our lands?
>>
>>3093808
People are brain damaged.
>>3093769
They turned traitor on Bolton controlled North sure, considering they are some of the Stark's greatest supporters.
Wyman is unbelievably pissed off about the Red Wedding.
>>
>>3093792
>Hire Sailors units as Sea Guard? (Y) (1600G)
>Rule the Waves? (Y) (4800G)

so i am thinking
>teach a even better design to the shipbuilders of Old town, only the very best.
>collaboration with some maesters to build a even better one than The Long Night
>spread high seas trade designs to make it more lucrative
>sell cannon, guns and gunpowder, things that turn basically medieval armaments to real importance
>force bidding war between everyone building such things
>be sole supplier of gunpowder even if they figure out basic bitch cannons and guns.
>>
We don't have a dry dock.
WE CAN'T BUILD
OUR OWN
SHIP
>>
>>3093496
Changing vote to battle cogs
>>
I don't understand this "Rule the Waves? (Y) (4800G)"
Most costly
The longest to set up
Only one so no multitasking
Cannot into trade
Why?
>>
>>3093890
to set trade up we need money we dont have.
A raiding ship that we can man and arm to bully every ship at port with a blockade, or escort any fleet we want anywhere, or else.
Make one trip to essos, come back with a fleet under our guns filled to the brim with the best value per volume things we want.
>>
>>3093461
>>Hire Sailors units as Sea Guard? (Y/N) (1600G)
>>War Cogs? (Y/N) (2800G)
Prussians never needed a navy to strike fear into the continent
>>
>Hire Sailors units as Sea Guard? (Y) (1600G)
>Rule the Waves? (Y/N) (4800G)

The prestige and reputation we gain from once again having the most powerful warship to ever exist in this world, surpassing even our previous groundbreaking vessel, is well worth the cost.
>>
>>3093461
>Hire Sailors units as Sea Guard? (Y) (1600G)
>Rule the Waves? (Y) (4800G)
>>
>>3094108
HOW? This will literally bankrupt us, take years to build (leaving us vulnerable in the mean time) and stall our construction until Mannis gives us the money, at which point we are stalled again with no saltpeter of our own to mass produce gunpowder.

If we get the most expensive option, we are not getting a gun factory, even with a crown loan. FACT.

Please explain how the fuck this is worth it!
>>
People are brain damaged indeed. We haven't even set up the promised production facility and we're blowing all our cash now? No port for income, no powder to trade, no taxes to take. Just how are we gonna even eat if we dump so much money into this? Money we promised to use on blackpowder production?
>>
>>3093461
>Standard Warships? (Y/N) (2800G)
>>
>>3093461
>N
>N
>>
>>3094308
>>3094324
Do you realise just how ridiculously fucking easy it's gonna be to make money once we have this ship?
>>
I do have one fairly insane idea. The main reason all these ships cost so much is because we lack any Power and must convert money to Wealth to Power. If we were to wait a month, we could perform a House Fortunes roll and get at least a single unit of Power, equalling 400 gold dragons or 2 Wealth in purchasing power.

Problem is every month we wait in an attempt to save money is another month we could get raided. So it's a question of wasting money to rush it now or waiting a period to at least reduce the cost.


Alternatively, we could see how much it would cost for the infantry / cavalry options. Chances are they'd be cheaper but wouldn't provide as much offensive capability.
>>
Also OP, two questions about this ship stuff.

1) Are guns included in the price or would we need to buy those too. Given a Galleon without guns is basically useless, this could significantly alter the voting patterns.

2) Don't we already have a unit of sailors we could use to crew our ships?
>>
>>3094345
Pretty much.
Wealth is overall far more inefficient than directly being able to produce a resource.
However, wealth in general is far more flexible than straight up power.
>>
>>3094353
>However, wealth in general is far more flexible than straight up power.
Yeah, mostly because everyone is in agreement to trade shit for it. Which is what in turn makes it useful.

The cycle of capital is cool.
>>
>>3094334
Then why the fuck is nobody giving me an example?! This shit is ridiculous.
>>
>>3094345
What I have been looking at is using the +1 for Land so we can avoid the 20 Wealth price of a slot for our industry. However, while this may work for our later projects, putting off powder production for 2 years is not an option.

Land units are not significantly cheaper, besides, it seems that the old ship was enough to deter, so 5 smaller ones should be enough as well.

>>3094352
1) Yes
2) They are going with the old ship
>>
>>3094369
Ok, here's an example: we can basically show up at any given Stepstones pirate fort or Essosi coastal town/city and start sinking ships until they pay us to go away. There's literally nothing they can do about it - we outrange anything else on land or water, we have enough firepower to cripple any ship and most fortifications, and we have the fastest mode of transport in existence so they can't even chase us.
>>
>>3094389
So we are right back to an unprotected port and no gun factory.
>>
>>3094379
>What I have been looking at is using the +1 for Land so we can avoid the 20 Wealth price of a slot for our industry.
A logical plan.

>However, while this may work for our later projects, putting off powder production for 2 years is not an option.
Agreed. That would delay our ability to prepare repayment for the Stark loan too significantly. Leaving us 8 years to repay 10000 Gold Dragons seems unwise given that means we'd need a profit of 1250 Gold Dragons just to break even.

>Land units are not significantly cheaper, besides, it seems that the old ship was enough to deter, so 5 smaller ones should be enough as well.
True. Main reason I mention a preference for saving money by looking at infantry / cavalry is that we will need them given time. Yet ships we can get later once we've built a reserve of power and have time to look into construction of newer, more powerful, experimental ships.

Point being we save some money and therefore are closer to affording our various investments.
>>
>>3094436
As opposed to a poorly protected port, no gun factory, no opportunity for easy money, no prestige, and no guarantee that we would actually be able to defeat even the pirates in the Bite? Sure.
>>
I think something most people are overlooking is that Prince Stannis will send us our money once piracy in the region is reduced to acceptable levels: A galleon will be tremendously effective at driving pirates out of the area.
>>
>>3094477
To be fair, we could probably do almost as much good with just the trade cogs given their greater number means we can surround enemies and shit.
>>
>Hire Sailors units as Sea Guard? (Y) (1600G)
>War Cogs? (Y/N) (2800G)
>>
Maybe we could raise the issue of needing some money to create a defence for our lands with Stannis? If we argued our ships armed with cannons would patrol the Bite and discourage / eliminate piracy he might be willing to aid us in getting something sorted.
>>
>>3093571
Actually, having read the arguments of anons here, I'm going to change my vote to:

>Hire Sailors units as Sea Guard? (Y) (1600G)
>War Cogs? (Y) (2800G)

We really do need to be a little more parsimonious and reserve as much money as possible for building up industry & such.
>>
>>3093461
>Nah this is too expensive and review another option

We can revisit this shortly. For now, I'm curious what alliances we could make.


Also we should see if we can't get a musician that plays the Hurdy-gurdy for all our entrances. Shit can sound haunting, mysterious and strangely "modern" in terms of what it plays.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Q4mKo9gBF4
>>
No, this is too expensive and stark definitely won’t take it well is we spend all our loan money on something beside getting production ready.
>>
>>3095023
>Nah this is too expensive and review another option
>>
>>3093497
Fuck it. After having tallied up the costs and having discussed it in the Discord, we are pretty much economically fucked anyway. With the Galleon we may at least extort the money from Tyrosh or some Stepstone pirates. And if not, good luck catching the debtor in such a ship - pirate life for us.

>>3093461
>>3093497
Changing to
>Rule the Waves (4800G)
>Hire Sailors units as Sea Guard (1600G)
>>
>>3095103
Mate, could you please link your vote to OP's post rather than mine?
>>
>>3093461
>>Hire Sailors units as Sea Guard? (Y/N) (1600G)
>>War Cogs? (Y/N) (2800G)

We can use the sea guards to defend our castle (where all the gold is stored) until the ships are built. And cogs seem to fit better with our ranged focus. Ramming and boarding just isn't our style.

I think we should still look into land based troops too. Either more outriders or some musket infantry to garrison the castle.
>>
>>3095102
We have 10 years for that. The plan when this ship construction ends will be to raid essos coasts or do blockade on some settlements, and attack pirates or essos merchants fleets.
Taking their ships and cargo.
And with the pirates we will take even them and their banners so we can get whatever bounty is on their heads.
Then return here and sell it.
And the wealth we get is invested in our lands .
Essentially we will be a corsair and will try to make all the wealth we can. In theory it should work, our lands can still be destroyed by pirates even with a decent size garrison but the crown will not have a problem with this and our ship should be so strong and fast enough that it could obliterate a city fleet without problems.
>>
>>3095114
You do realize all the ships would have cannons, right?

>>3095117
Yeah, seems we have no choice. However, we should spurge on another set of ships to protect our holdings as soon as possible. After getting gunpowder and guns online, obviously.
>>
>>3095117
So you want to use the loan money from stark, which he explicitly gave us because we convinced hil our powder would be good for the North to build a Manowar, when we just sold a ship to Stannis at 6000 GC as THE best ship around?
...that is not going to bit us in the ass at all.
>>
>>3095123
10 years for that loan.

9 years of raiding and sacking.
And then invest all of this wealth back in our lands.


First year ? Even with our garrison of gunmen and the militia our lands could be sacked with success.
But we will return here and rebuild it and buy even a small fleet to remain here, and perhaps even a cheap mercenary company of 1000/2500 man at arms/archers for garrison it.
>>
>>3095129
And then we will even find those bastards that have done the raid and crucify them, putting them all over the coasts of our land.
So even if is a risk vote for those 2 options guys, we can make a lot of actual wealth with it.
Vote them.
>>
>>3095118
>You do realize all the ships would have cannons, right?
Uh, yes? I picked Cogs because they're the cheaper option that isn't meant for ramming and boarding. Plus those towers will be handy for muskets and swivel guns.

But I guess that's all academic because it appears like we're gonna make like Britannia.
>>
>>3095129
Bit too optimistic there bud.

>>3095133
Reason I changed my vote is we are fucked either way. With the galleon we may have a chance of getting back on track.
>>
>>3095136
Which ships meant for ramming? We will never ram anything when we can shoot them from a safe distance.

Also, dislike that name. Horrible.
>>
>>3093873
The ship will be built in White Harbor under our instructions.
Vote for
>Hire Sailors units as Sea Guard? (Y) (1600G)
>Rule the Waves? (Y) (4800G)
It s a risk but think of all the wealth we can make .
Is one year of building it.
Then 9 years of raiding.
Sell what we take.
And invest back in our lands.
>>
>>3095141
I guarantee you it will not be as smooth as you make it out to be. Plus, the drain on our coffers will guarantee we are not getting a gun factory, even the saltpeter production is iffy. Furthermore, we will still be undefended until the ship is done and after we fuck off with it, meaning we are back where we started, albeit a lot poorer. Means we will need to do some *serious* moneymaking to get back on track. Keep in mind selling a half-broken ship will not net us 500 Gold. So it will not be a cash shower.

However, the alternative is we turtle and wait for profits that are slow to tick in. So have no choice really. Unless some anons have a good idea how we could make around 100 Wealth in a couple years.
>>
>>3095139
>Standard Warship unit Cost: 7 Power
>These ships are designed for ramming, boarding and transporting troops over water, but not designed for open ocean travel or fording rivers.
Basically what the Ironborn or river pirates use. Not a bad ride if your plan A is to axe people in the face, but less suitable for our needs.
>>
>>3095137
>First year ? Even with our garrison of gunmen and the militia our lands could be sacked with success.
>our lands could be sacked with success.


We could just find burned ruins and raped corpses, when we return home.

But it s a risk we must take. And yes we can t invest in other things if we do the man o war.
>>
>>3095147
We will take even their cargo, and doing blockcades even of a small city in Essos will give us things that selled back in Westeros could make us fortunes.
>>
>>3095141
I wouldn't think of it as 9 years of raiding, more like 9 years of defending and clearing out the narrow sea of pirates and hopefully being paid by the crown, on top of seizing ships and goods if we leave anything left.

Also I suggested the idea that we could build it in Oldtown because we have connections there and could probably get a better price, plus it gives us a reason to go hang out with the family when the wedding comes up. But it could work out equally well at white harbor, we could try and bring the cost down by teaching Wyman's shipwrights a few things.

Or we could say to Stannis, hey I know we just sold you our ship but I'm building a bigger better one that's really going to help get rid of pirates and stuff so we need the royal shipyards and shipwrights to help, and well owe you (something). Maybe the plans for it aafterwe build it. lt would bring the time down a lot I think, if qm would let us do that.
>>
>>3095156
nah, raiding will be it.
The crown can not pay as much as essosi.
So bust up the myrish trade cartels to the advantage of everyone not in the cartel, be they myrish or other chesee merchants, by sailing in with some of our friends from Quarth, block the port and sink any ship who thinks to make a run for it with our ludicrously fast gunship.
Then hold a aqution of all ships in port, at gunpoint.
All ships not sold will be sunk if we can not have prize crew for them.
Then proceed to load up the ships we have prize crews with riches or we blow up the port.
When we return wherever we can buy what we want.
This should net ludicrous profits.
Like how much for 30 or 40 ships and their cargo just as our share? All of that loaded up in say, 10 prize ships or so,plus the closed port safety fee.

By the time we are done with one trip we ought to return with the equivalent of around 100k GD
>>
>>3095169
As a conservative estimate.
40 ship hulls and cargo worth of gold
extorted protection and fire hazard fee for the port
Any other small fleet or port we happen upon we dont like to further supplement the haul...
we should be making around 100k or more depending on how long we want to force people to sell in our name their own shit to their neighbors or rivals. All the while managing to get paid by another essoi city to disrupt trade on a rival.
>>
>Hey why don't we become a pirate with this massive ship and screw off from our lands? We can totally make the money back.
This is literally our worst plan ever, including the plan that ended with us blowing up our first ship.

All of you who are thinking "what if we just go raiding trade fleets and blockading essos" you do realise we are a lord? As in any action we take is as a representative of Westeros and the king? We'd be essentially starting a war with a free city if we blockaded them and piracy ain't exactly a noble pursuit. And before any of you think to imply that we could just not fly our flag, we are going to be in a massive visually distinct ship using a weapon only we and the king's fleet has access to.

That leaves us with only pirates and cutthroats to hunt. Men who are skilled at evading entire fleets of ships far more familiar with the regions they patrol than us, although our experience plying the trade of a guardship in Essos might aid us there, and that is before mentioning the fact they might just choose to hide in their holes until we pass.

But lets assume we do that and we'd somehow manage to make a profit (as in more money than we spend on this ship, crewing it and paying for ammo, food, pay and repairs for all the time it's in use), we'd need to make 10000 Gold Dragons to pay back Stark. Plus however much we need to repair anything that does get destroyed during the time we are away leaving our lands undefended more or less. Which could be at least 30 wealth and easily more not to mention any potential loss of influence, population or law from being successfully raided. Or to put it another way, another 6000 Gold Dragons plus other unknowable losses.


In my opinion, if we are going to buy any ships, we should buy the trade carracks. They have cargo space, can mount strong cannons, easily travel open seas and are a fairly conventional vessel that come at a lower price for a greater number, allowing us to leave by ship and not entirely remove our guarding force. That or we should look into infantry, cavalry or alliances to resolve this issue.


Chances are we could convince Stannis of our plight and either get a boon to pay for them, a few ships of the royal fleet as a garrison until we have the Power for our own or perhaps he might offer the chance to buy some from him at a reduced price. One idea I did have was to ask if he wouldn't mind leaving the Long night at our lands, to disuade any pirates, until we have the situation around here a bit more under control. Not under our command but rather protecting the only source of the powder needed to make the damn thing useful.

At the very least, we should see how long Stannis plans to be staying here trying to capture and eliminate pirates. Perhaps we could delay this purchase for a month and make some arrangements to reduce this cost? Perhaps we could buy captured pirate ships from Stannis?
>>
>Biggest boi
>>3093472
>>3093496
>>3093540
>>3093571
>>3093576
>>3093603
>>3093769
>>3093792
>>3093868
>>3093890
>>3094108
>>3094110
>>3095108
>>3095141

>Cog bois
>>3093489
>>3093500
>>3093602
>>3093604
>>3093651
>>3093793
>>3093948
>>3094540
>>3094986
>>3095114

>Standard bois
>>3093497
>>3093512
>>3094331

>Oy vey!
>>3093630
>>3095023
>>3095103

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBal7F6bdbY
>>
>>3095188
Well shit. If this ends up fucking us over, I want it known I was against this. If this somehow works out, I'll be damn impressed but I've no confidence in such a gambit.
>>
Better start thinking up names for that vessel I guess.
>>
>>3095179
The free citys of essos are not part of the faith of the seven, and sometimes trade with them as probably stop as well.

If anything with this action we are imposing all of the kingdom as the dominant force of trade in the sea.
And i really doubt any westeros noble will be against us , since this citys despise freemen. And this citys don t have problems in raid some of westeros villages for make slaves.

It has probably happen more than one time.
>>
>>3095190
Shooty mcshootface
The long night 2: electric boogaloo

Something 40k related will probably fit us best.

I can't wait.
>>
>>3095191
To be entirely fair, you could always go full false flag operation.

>Lands get raided by *Slavers* and *Pirates*
>Claim they are from the [Free City of your choosing]
>Start retaliating against them and looting their ships and outposts and ransoming the merchants until the prisoners are returned or reparations are paid.
>>
>>3095188
>>3093890 (You)
This one was me being baffled over this retarded idea, but that doesn't change anything. Should be more clear than this isnt a vote sorry.
>>
>>3095190
The Longer, Thicker, Veinier, Night?

Seriously:

>Victory
>>
>>3095203
Huh, shows the second post as (You) to me. Weird.
>>
>>3095190
"The longer night" if we want to be a cheeky bastard.

Alternatively, the following names for ships of the line of the Royal Navy: "Valiant", "Indomitable", "Stalwart", "Titan", "Sea-king", "Defiant / Defiance", "Dreadnought", "Triumph / Triumphant", "Sovereign", "Conqueror", "Thunderer" or "War-spite".

>>3095191
>The free citys of essos are not part of the faith of the seven, and sometimes trade with them as probably stop as well.
I'll grant you the first point and I'll agree with the second so long as we are in agreement on one thing: we don't attack any ships of Bravos. The Iron bank, their vast fleet and all the other things they might bring against us are too much to anger.

>If anything with this action we are imposing all of the kingdom as the dominant force of trade in the sea.
Potentially but we could also be souring a lot of relations.

>And i really doubt any westeros noble will be against us , since this citys despise freemen. And this citys don t have problems in raid some of westeros villages for make slaves.
I suppose that is all true.

>>3095200
How likely is it we could get away with such a risky plan? Would no one catch on that the giant Carrack that enters battle in clouds of smoke with a thunderous roar might be related to us?
>>
>>3095205
Same.
>>
>>3095203
Why can't we use a galleon for trading? It has more than enough storage space & is a fast enough vessel to make it worth while. Plus; there's no pirate afloat insane enough to even try & seize her, so surely people would be willing to pay a little extra for us to ship things super securely.

Also, on a related note; if we go pirate hunting do we get to keep any booty we find, & is there a standing bounty for pirates?
>>
>>3095206
Bravoos prefer freeman too.

So we will avoid to attack them.
>>
>>3095209
Alright, then I'm fine with "British Imperialism against the free cities", perhaps we can even get the Bravossi to support us with troops, supplies and money? Lord knows they hate their neighbours to at least give us a reward for every ship of theirs we sink.
>>
>>3095205
>>3095207
But it's mine (you) not yours MINE!
>>
>>3095203
Sorry, my bad.
>>
>>3095211
steal myrish crossbows, production machinery and know how., as a gift to say, the merman, as a export good he can now offer from White Harbour or somone else, like say the quarth merchant- spread that thing around.
>>
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The winter solstice could work well as a ship name. Literally the longest night. Plus winter.
>>
>>3095216
>>3095211
Same with the glassworkers skills, leave a master of each to one or two.
But still steal the glass workers and xbow workers and underlings for ourselves.and any that has good skills that might translate as a discount machinist.
Get ourselves a decently trained workforce we offer employment for specialist training that we have need of.
>>
>>3095206
Sea-Titan or Sea-God sound cool
>>
>>3095217
Clever; I like it!
>>
>>3095216
Honestly, we could probably figure out how to replicate Myrish crossbows without too much issue. The only thing special about them is the ability to launch multiple bolts with the same trigger as far as I can find. Beyond that the only other implication I've seen is that their craftsmanship of a higher quality.

Honestly we could probably just make a good crossbow design and sell that to him. Heck, we could make the semi-auto crossbow the Chinese used and sell that design to him as well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repeating_crossbow

>>3095218
>Same with the glassworkers skills, leave a master of each to one or two.
A master of glassworking would be an amazing gift for anyone: Lord Stark has glass-houses for growing food during winter, he'd probably take a master of glass-working on to expand them cheaply with good glass; same goes for any lord in the north.

He does however not like slavery, yet I am reminded that in the Books John Snow remarks the Nights watch should buy some of the slave-apprentice glassworkers and free them in the north in return for teaching them to make glass for glass-houses at the wall.

Similarly, we could gift Stark a number of expert glassworking ex-slaves and get on his good side as a freer of men.

>>3095220
Sea-Titan would be best. Sea-god is for when we make a steamship with breach-loading turreted guns.
>>
I like Daybreak or maybe Sunrise as a name.
Solstice is a name that makes no sense, especially considering their nights in winter last multiple days and winter is seemingly random. Also their sun isn't called Sol probably.
Also using Solstice leaves us no options for if we make a third ultimate vessel when we are rich.
This way though we can go with "Zenith" for whatever it will be (Probably an Ironclad).
>>
>>3095226
>especially considering their nights in winter last multiple days and winter is seemingly random.
Actually it's more like they have a regular year-cycle and then on top of that is a more-or-less random cycle of "horrifying endless winter" and "pleasant endless summer".
>>
>>3095224
True. I support Sea Titan then.
>>
>>3095224
Mwahahha, westerosi and bravos team up to make the most weird slave raid in recorded history.
Slaves were raided from their masters, in exchange were offered work placement opportunities of great repute.
Slaves were raided and offered the chance to be freedmen in other lands, or be resold to some other maester as repossession and liquidation of their current masters debt to the port fees announced a few days ago.
>>
>>3095233
>repossession and liquidation of their current masters debt to the port fees announced a few days ago.
"What do you mean WE owe you money? You just attacked us!"
"Yeah but didn't you get my letter? I sent a messenger ahead: 'give me most of your shit or I'll take it all'."
"..."
"You killed him didn't you? That's another debt."
>>
>>3095190
We should call it the Prydwen. It was King Arthur's ship.
>>
>[Rule Britannia]

[1/2]

"You know what Manrel, I think you're right. We do need to have a presence at the sea and replace the Long Night. We should also have enough room in the castle to keep a garrison of fighters trained to fight at sea as well, so might as well commission those as well."

"Excellent choice my Lord, safer trade is never a bad investment."

Ser Dan nods
"What sort of ships are you planning on buying my lord? I reckon most anything should work, provided they have cannons and swivel guns on them, though I suspect they likely won't hold a Candle to the Long Night in a one-on-one fight."

"Hmm.... Well, to be entirely fair I do think the options in terms of ships might be quite lacking, so I think we'll need to have a new one built, either in King's Landing, White Harbor or just going back to the Citadel."

"A Second Long Night?"

"Nah, that one was built as a Courier ship, not as a Warship. I'm thinking about 80 cannon frigate with two cannon decks, kinda like a Carrack, but bigger and designed for hosting big guns. Hardwood construction, sturdy enough to withstand cannonball shots from the little peashooters that the Long Night was equipped with. Oh, and obviously I'll want to up the weapon caliber to such a degree that it can actually take down stone and brick fortifications. It is a WAR ship after all."

"You don't think that's a bit excessive My Lord? I imagine such a monstrosity will take great deal of time and money."
Maester Tobias speaks out

"Nonsense. Why should we hold back for the sake of those who'd see us destroyed? Besides, it'll make for a great publicity stunt when the North has the most powerful Warship in the whole World. Worst case scenario, we sell it for profit. If no one wants to buy it, we'll make them want to buy it if only to deny it from their enemies."

"While Maester Tobias is right in that this is a very expensive endeavor and time consuming as well. However, very lucrative to whichever shipyard you'd commission to build such a thing. If the vessel will indeed be the most powerful in the world, whichever Lord who owns the drydocks that constructed will receive great prestige for it's construction. Enough so that it might serve as an argument for the Crown to consider them in the future whenever they make new ships."
Your Seneschal Manrel replies

"Think we could use that as leverage?"
"Oh most certainly my lord. In fact, learning from one of the greatest shipwrights the Citadel has ever produced should already allow you to haggle with whomever you seek to offer this contract to."
>>
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[2/2]

"Hmm... and exactly who would you say are the options in here?"

"White Harbor is obviously the closest. If you would part with your knowledge on the construction of the Long Night as well as this new ship to his shipwright, there is no reason to not believe he wouldn't be willing to offer you a discount. After all, his shipyards have access to some of the cheapest and best lumber in Westeros."

Maester Manrel takes a gulp of water before continuing

"Naturally, there is the Citadel as well. Long way to reach them, true, but you did manage to convince the Conclave to go along with the construction of the Long Night. I see no reason why they wouldn't agree to another deal."

"Additionally there's the Crown directly. If you went to the King's Master of Ships Prince Stannis with this and let the Crown choose whom would receive this boon of being able to construct these warships designed by you, they might help sponsor you to an extent on this endeavor.
Of course this would naturally mean that the Crown would be far less likely to commission vessels from other shipyards, which is why I advise to use this as nothing more than a negotiating tool when dealing with other potential shipmakers."
Your Seneschal Manrel concludes

"There is also the free cities."
Ser Bodrin adds
"Braavos is famed for it's fast construction of ships."

Your Barrister Preston interjects
"I would advise not to consider that option. Dealings with the Braavosi is a fickle prospect. The King's Justice does not reach to the hidden city and it might give some of your fellow lords a poor impression of you."


>Whom do you seek to handle Project Manowar

>White Harbor. It's close enough to check up on and should have best raw materials.
>The Citadel. It has the most learned craftsmen.
>The Crown. It's not like I was ever planning on producing my own ships anyway.
>Braavos. They probably can get the job done fastest even without the Arsenal.
>Nah, come to think if it, it's too expensive
>Write-in. Something else?
>>
>>3095238
>Nah, come to think if it, it's too expensive

I'm still hoping this will win. Failing that, I'd say give it to the Crown.
>>
Actually, why aren't we building more "Long night" style ships? They're a proven craft and shouldn't cost too much while still being able to move fast and carry strong cannons.
>>
>White Harbor. It's close enough to check up on and should have best raw materials.

We want the finest ship in the world to be made of the finest timber, we want to be able to quickly and easily go and check up on the construction without having to leave our lands for months at a time. Also, it can't hurt to boost our standing with Manderly, and with the North in general by having it built there.
>>
>>3095243
We should still look into playing the various options off against each other. Every gold saved is a gold for hiring additional marines to "assist" in our efforts or for our lands / their security.
>>
>>3095238
>>White Harbor. It's close enough to check up on and should have best raw materials.

>>3095239
Braavos is literally The Worst option.
>>
>>3095248
I never said Braavos..?
>>
>>3095248
Also yeah, play the other shipyards to get a decent deal.
>>
>>3095238
>White Harbor. It's close enough to check up on and should have best raw materials.
Close enough that we can personally supervise the construction, additionally our friendship to Manderly and the favor this commission is to him should allow us to make this project at least a bit more affordable.
>>
>>3095249
Sorry, Crown. Wont want designs in Lannister hands. Also, WH is close to us so we can sell cannons as well.
>>
>>3095238
>The Crown. It's not like I was ever planning on producing my own ships anyway.

Having Stannis attest to how useful our first ship is that he literally bought it, I think he and the crown are the best option.

Failing that, do what the others have said and play everyone off against each other, White Harbour being my next choice.
>>
>>3095238
>White Harbor. It's close enough to check up on and should have best raw materials.
>>
>>3095238
>White Harbor. It's close enough to check up on and should have best raw materials.
>>
>>3095238
>White Harbor
If 5k does end up happening White Harbor with a couple Cannon Galleons will make Kings Landing fall very quickly. The wildfire stunt is only useable once and even then probably proves ineffective as one hit from a cannon sets off the entire KL fleet while the Galleons are out of range.
>>
>>3095253
Except doing this doesn't mean we give them the designs. It just means we let them restrict who can produce the design. I'd also point out as well the Lannisters aren't exactly the greatest naval power. Especially as of this moment, their fleet was burned during the war against the Iron-born.


Seriously though, let's see what the best deal we can get without talking to the Crown is. Starting at White Harbour and then the Citadel.
>>
>>3095238
>White Harbor
LETS MAKE WHITE HARBOR GREAT AGAIN
>>
>>3095238
>>Nah, come to think if it, it's too expensive
>>
>>3095238
>Whaito Harboru Dess
>>
>>3095102
He also probably wouldn't like the first thing we do with it would be conquest and plunder unprovoked
>>
>>3095288
I'm sure he wouldn't mind if we were plundering pirates and slavers.
>>
>>3095288
Why would he care about us killing literal pirates? Also it would serve as a demonstration for the power of our product. How much will our production facilities cost? Surely 9k-ish is enough.
>>
>>3095288
To be fair, it's far more likely we'd spend the first year clearing the Bite of pirates after having a fund raiser / bounty hunter gathering event. Goal being to get a large sum (perhaps a few hundred to a single thousand Gold Dragons) from the merchants, lords and so on of the Bite in return for us patrolling and outright eliminating piracy: be it ships or secret ports they base themselves from.

Plus, we can sell whatever ships we capture and take bounties. We'll move onto actual invasions whenever we're certain our lands are fairly safe.

>>3095299
He's talking about the invasion of Essos plan.

>How much will our production facilities cost? Surely 9k-ish is enough.
Technically, we are able to produce powder as of the completion of the mill. However, to ensure a consistent and cheap supply of materials, we need a supply of nitre, charcoal and sulphur.

Sulphur is already taken care of with our investment into a plant for it's processing. However charcoal and nitre will require further investments and expansion. Specifically nitre will require a supply of Nitrous waste (animal or human) or certain minerals which we'd then refine. Charcoal is fairly straight forward: wood; burner; charcoal.

This means we can technically produce gunpowder but we run the risk of running out of materials thanks to the local supply being drained.
>>
Anons, we need to seriously re-consider the option of becoming Manderly vassal. He promises to

>handle security
>fund the building of the factories
>give us 2 extra plots of land (which is apparently worth 11K Gold)

All he asks in return is
>Vassalage, presumably coming with obligations to aid Manderlys during war
>10% of profits

This is a SERIOUSLY good deal, and I cannot stress enough that our current funds may not be enough to get this off the ground, with all the money spent on the warship.
>>
>>3095303
The majority of Essos are filthy slavers or Dothraki savages.
Then you've got China a bit further along.
>>
>>3095303
Let me elaborate.

We are already building the sulphur refining operation. Charcoal is easy and dirt cheap so we buy it in from any one of our neghbours.

Saltpeter takes 20 Wealth for the Holding and one slot. We can get a slot if we spend 20 Wealth (10 Land).

So We need 40 Wealth to set up Powder production fully. On top of that, we will need 30 Wealth to set up a Port so we can actually manage the sort of distribution both the ship and large-scale sales would need.
>>
>>3095312
Yeah I support the Manderly deal.
He's a decent bloke and a right propa lad too.
He's one of the better people in Westeros.
>>
>>3095238
>nah too expensive

Why don't we build our own port first and then sell these?
>>
>>3095316
Because the Port is for infrastructure and trade. If we want to build ships we will need a Drydock and a Dense Forest nearby. Neither of which we have or have space for. So looking at another 70 our so Wealth.
>>
>>3095316
Our own port would cost 6000 gold
Then we need to actually build the thing.
>>
>>3095313
Oh shit that's another way we can make a ton of money - we'll basically have the only ship capable of making the voyage to Yi Ti and back in a reasonable amount of time. I would assume nobles and wealthy merchants would pay quite the pretty penny for the sort of one-of-a-kind exotic goods we could get hold of there. We did the Oldtown-Lannisport run in just a few days in the Long Night, and now we'll have a ship that can handle much longer trips.
>>
>>3095238
>>3095243

Also:
>(Write in) Take Manderly's funding/vassalage deal.
>>
>>3095312
See I somewhat agree but I'd argue that there exists alternatives. Fact is we should avoid vassalage and profit-sharing as much as possible given how much we might be making in future, 10% could be 100's of Gold Dragons.

If he'd drop the 10% thing, I suppose I could be convinced that we should agree to transfer ourselves unto him as a vassal.

>>3095313
Doesn't change what I said, I was merely explaining what he meant.

>>3095314
Basically. I mean I'd argue we can avoid the port for now, given our initial gunpowder production could be used in our local mine or sold to Manderly which means we can avoid shipping it too far. Plus every month that passes is another +1 land which reduces our costs significantly given a single land is 2 wealth.

>>3095316
Because a port doesn't have the facilities to build ships?

>>3095319
That ain't a bad idea although the Yi Ti speak a different language if I remember correctly: we might get by with trade-speak but we'd probably not do well.
>>
>>3095317
>>3095318
So we hold off on the bigger ship then if we can't even tend too it here then
>>
>>3095324
We have a fishery, it's not like we lack a place for ships to dock. It's that we lack a place with warehouses and piers sufficient for a large number of merchants coming and going, trading their various wares.
>>
Long-term political goals:
>Help Mannis take the Iron Throne
>Tie Stannis and Ned/the Starks together so they aren't divided if Renly tries to claim the Throne
>Become Lord Paramount of the Stepstones

We max out Favour with Ned with the Bran Plan (save Bran, exposing Lannister Incest is optional), and work our relationship with Stannis the Baratheon by helping him with one of these or all of:

>become Lord Paramount of Stormlands (a title that Renly holds currently because Robert - this really irritates Stannis because he feels he was skipped despite being older than Renly, not to mention his wartime achievements)
>Push Renly off Master of Law, put Stannis as Master of Law, and we become Master of Ships

Once we're Master of Ships, we launch an invasion of the Stepstones under the auspices of the King Who Loves Fighting And Fucking. The Stepstones will become a new "province" that will have a new Lord Paramount, possibly based in Tyrosh (Tyrosh was set up by the Valyrians ages ago just for this purpose) - this will either be us, the one who made the annexation possible, or Stannis, if the plan to make him Lord Paramount of the Stormlands does not happen. This will be a purely temporary measure, as once Stannis climbs the Iron Throne with the assistance of Ned the Lawboo and our guns, we will be granted massive boons for supporting him from the start. A boon such as... becoming the Lord Paramount of the Stepstones.

Also this is not really timeline-gated: we should consider proposing to Robert Baratheon (within Cersei's hearing-range) of raising the Lords Paramount into KINGS, and making the holder of the Iron Throne EMPEROR. This makes us lose absolutely nothing, it COSTS us nothing, but it will make the following people happy:

Robert - he doesn't like being compared to Targaryens, so having a new title will make him jolly
Cersei - Empress. She's gonna love that title.
Tyrell - They keep trying to push Margaery to Lannister incest babies because they want royalty. Also, actually becoming Kings will make them more legitimate in the eyes of the rest of Reach - remember that the Tyrells were never Gardener Kings.
Lannisters - King of the Rock past, re-achieved
Starks - Kingodanorf re-achieved, and also serves as a good lubricant for Stannis-Young Wolf relationship, since the Young Wolf wanted to be recognised as a king during the WoFK
Dorne - super proud of their Prince title, will be pretty pleased being king again
Greyjoys - we might not grant them the Kingly title because of the whole rebellion thing
Us, once we become Lord Paramount of the Stepstones - we'll become king
Rest of the other Lords Paramount that I'm missing are not going to be unhappy about a title raise.
>>
>>3095323
Anon the set-up costs are massive, and 10% is a pretty decent tradeoff to get a leg up. Once we become Lord of Stepstones we can put political pressure to become free again, but we need to think of the long term plan instead of being too prideful to accept help.

Manderly isn't going to drop 10% because it's going to take him decades or longer to recoup the investment he makes in practically building our powerbase. It's a very reasonable, rate, and in fact I'd say it's almost surprisingly gracious. It probably has to do with Lord Stark being so invested in it, since they're such loyal bannermen. Stark is, in turn, invested because the Crown is.
>>
>>3095238
>White Harbor. It's close enough to check up on and should have best raw materials.

Ask for send some craftsmen from the Citadel
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>>3095238
>White Harbour building
>Try to build favour with Manderly, see if we can become Vassal soon
>>
>>3095329
>Once
If.

>Manderly isn't going to drop 10% because it's going to take him decades or longer to recoup the investment he makes in practically building our powerbase.
I'll grant you that he won't drop it but christ knows I ain't accepting those terms. If we can get him to drop it to 2% then I'd be a bit more tolerant of it but I've never liked deals in perpetuity like this.

Honestly I'd rather take a year or two and slowly gather land / wealth from our industry and house rolls before rushing into these things. It's the same reason I'm really against buing this ship now, as every House roll can save us 400 Gold Dragons by getting us a unit of Power instead.


Again, I'm really against this ship. I mean, if Stannis is staying for even two months then by delaying our purchase of any ship or unit or anything of that sort we can save 800 Gold Dragons. 4 Wealth. 8% of our loan to Stark.
>>
>>3095361
Why are you so desparate to stop Manderly making any money? We get to keep 90% of the profits - that's a fuckload of money. 10% to Manderly is negligible.
>>
>>3095361
The faster we get production going, the greater net profit we gain over time. And 10% tax is very good considering the time, not to mention the investment and land-giving.

Anon, Manderly's offer of Lands + funds equals to 100 Wealth. And that is ignoring his protection, the fact that we'll be "one of us" for the northern lords once we're properly integrated thanks to the Manderly connections, and the fact that those who mess with us will be messing with Manderly's investment.

Tenth of the profits is more than reasonable. That's around the amount most vassals pay to their overlords in the first place, AKA we have to pay Stark something along that line anyway even if we remained "independent".

I guarantee that once we execute Bran Plan and get close to Stannis, the 10% you are so worried about will be chump change. But we need the capital, to make MORE capital, so that we can eventually end up in the Stepstones.
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>>3095363
>Why are you so desparate to stop Manderly making any money?
I've never been against that. To be entirely honest I quite like the man. I just hate deals where I can't see a way out: if we become his vassal I don't see us getting back out from under him without seriously souring relations.

Not to mention him wanting control over who we sell gunpowder to. I don't like tying our political, economic and social future to another lord.

>We get to keep 90% of the profits - that's a fuckload of money. 10% to Manderly is negligible.
If 90% is a fuckload of money then 10% is one ninth of a fuckload of money.

>>3095371
>The faster we get production going, the greater net profit we gain over time.
True.

>And 10% tax is very good considering the time, not to mention the investment and land-giving.
I don't disagree it is a fairly generous offer, when it was first proposed I was even tempted. Yet seeing just how much money we might be able to make I don't feel like doing it. At least not until it's outright needed.

>Anon, Manderly's offer of Lands + funds equals to 100 Wealth. And that is ignoring his protection
I mean when you put it like that I get where you are coming from.

>Tenth of the profits is more than reasonable.
I guess but it's honestly the overlordship thing. I'm never comfortable being under the command of others if I have any choice in the matter.

>That's around the amount most vassals pay to their overlords in the first place, AKA we have to pay Stark something along that line anyway even if we remained "independent".
I'll grant you that is an entirely fair point.

>I guarantee that once we execute Bran Plan and get close to Stannis, the 10% you are so worried about will be chump change.
Refer to my second response point to the comment above yours. 10% is 10%, no matter how you cut it. It's always going to either be a lot of money or a tiny amount but the 90% is too.

>But we need the capital, to make MORE capital, so that we can eventually end up in the Stepstones.
Fine, I'm only one man anyhow. If you all vote against me I can do nothing more than voice my discontent. Which is what this entire thing is at the end of the day: the post that sparked this discussion is specifically me vocalising a final call against this mad boat plan and a plea for us to at least try to maximise our potential savings / consider other options.
>>
I think the reasons Lord Manderly is offering us such a good deal are the following:

>Prestige
We're a pretty famous dude in Westeros. We were compared to Jaime during our squire tournament. We are rumoured to have built some strange plate-armour during that tournament. We make things go boom. A Kingsguard visited us.
Then suddenly, you bugger off to the Citadel and start learning things. Then you put those lessons into form, creating a wondrous vessel that makes things go boom. With it we go swashbuckling about, sinking Ironborn left and right during their rebellion, face off against the Mountain That Rides and indirectly spit on the face of Tywin Lannister.

Then we're landed as a lord after -that- debacle, while maintaining close ties with the brother of the King. All this, from a second son of a minor knightly house in the Reach.

>Loyalty
The Manderlys are a very loyal bannermen of the Starks, and not in a stupid "hurr durr follow you to death m'lord" way, but a much more insidious and intelligent manner. They will bide their time. They will strengthen their economy. They will even sleep with the enemy, if the need arises. But they will never forget the debt they owe to the Starks, who gave them a place to be after they got kicked out from the south. The Starks, who didn't really have a reason to give them such a boon.

Our presence in the north is a Stark investment. Lord Manderly is not going to want to fuck us up, because we are a Stark(tm) project. And Ned is tied to us because he's overly loyal to the Crown himself, and we are a Crown project, specifically Stannis'.

>Power
Consider the fact that it was our ship that faced off against a horde of ironborn ships. Our weapon, while still unproven for the world at large, is in demand enough that the Master of Ships wants steady supply of it, and Stark will expect tithe in the form of gunpowder. If we become Manderly vassal, they will also have a steady stream of gunpowder, a stream that is expedited by having us as his direct vassal and providing funds for us to build the facilities for it.

Manderly has zero reason to dick us. He has all the reasons to hope we succeed.

We need the money, to make more money. Don't be so greedy about the 10% the Manderlys will take to recoup the cost of investment, anons. Look at the bigger picture, and see how much more we can accomplish with the rest of the 90% we will have for basically free, with the Manderlys footing the bill for the facilities.
>>
>>3095379
I was against the bigbote plan once I saw the arguments against it, and how impractical just having one big ship was. I share your pain in that regard. It would have been fine to have multiple, smaller ships with cannons patrolling the coasts...
>>
>>3095379
>Political overlordship
We deal with the Starks and the Baratheons. Their aims take precedence, and the Manderlys won't be able to say anything about it.

We're talking about the Lord Paramount of the North and the King of the Seven Whatevers. Political freedom from the Manderlys will not be an issue when it comes to major incidents.

Consider, also, that we will be a fairly significant bannerman, one that Manderly cannot just push around. Again, I point to our thick (in the public eye) relations with the brother of the King, who is the Master of Ships. Stark is not going to prod us around when we're busy doing Crown business. That means Manderly will be, in turn, reluctant or at least think very hard before pushing around the power of the overlord.

Vassals aren't slaves, anon. We still have a say in what we do. And overlords sour relations with their bannermen at their peril.


>>
>>3095389
Fair enough. Here's what I'd need for me to accept Manderly's deal: he'd need to grant us the present terms BUT I reserve us the right to sell gunpowder to whomever we please.

I don't care what he says, I'll gladly sell it in his port and his port alone as a good but I reserve the right to trade it to other lords or even merchants as we please.


If he'd agree to that demand? I'd honestly be far less bothered: money comes and goes; many men stand above us. Yet it is true that only we may sell blackpowder and I'll be dammed if anyone short of a god takes that from us.
>>
>>3095394
>We deal with the Starks and the Baratheons. Their aims take precedence, and the Manderlys won't be able to say anything about it.
True I suppose but I am the anon who wants an alliance / marriage with the Cerwyn House and to try to trade many guns to them given their lord has seen and used them first hand. I don't know if Manderly would stop this but I'd hate to think the effort we put into making a good impression on the Cerwyn lord would be wasted.

>We're talking about the Lord Paramount of the North and the King of the Seven Whatevers. Political freedom from the Manderlys will not be an issue when it comes to major incidents.
I suppose.

>Consider, also, that we will be a fairly significant bannerman, one that Manderly cannot just push around. Again, I point to our thick (in the public eye) relations with the brother of the King, who is the Master of Ships. Stark is not going to prod us around when we're busy doing Crown business. That means Manderly will be, in turn, reluctant or at least think very hard before pushing around the power of the overlord.
>Vassals aren't slaves, anon. We still have a say in what we do. And overlords sour relations with their bannermen at their peril.
All true too, I agree but something about this still unnerves me. Although I'd suppose as we get stronger under Manderly, we might reach a point where he is interested in "closer relations" with our House in which case this whole thing becomes a non-issue to me.
>>
>>3095395
"What I am offering you is to become your patron Lord Arthur. If you swear fealty to me and become my vassal, I will not only defend you military[sic], but I will provide you all the funds your house needs to set up the gun and powder production. I'll even throw in the bit of coastline that used to belong to the Fullaxe along with the fishing hamlet that's on it."
"And the catch is?"
"Well, obviously any goods your lands produce would be sold through White Harbor. Naturally, we both would get our fair shafe[sic]."

Hmm, he didn't outright say that we won't be able to trade it to other merchants or lords. I think we could clarify that point with Manderly while his happiness meter is heightened by our massive shipbuilding request. We've gotten to know each other a bit better since that first offer, and we seem to have impressed him on our scholarly skills.
>>
>>3095404
>I think we could clarify that point with Manderly while his happiness meter is heightened by our massive shipbuilding request.
To be fair, I'm still heavily against that, even if it would somehow make him far more inclined to agree. I'd honestly prefer a few Long nights to a god damn Galleon: manoeuvrability is an extremely effective counter to a ship built around broadsides..
>>
>>3095238
>>The Citadel. It has the most learned craftsmen.
>>
>>3095403
I'm actually in favour with a Cerwyn alliance. It's unlikely for us to get married with Stannis' one daughter with the age difference (minor concern) and the need for political marriages (major concern), and likewise for the Starks. Cerwyns are direct vassals to the Ned, and while not ultra-powerful, they aren't exactly minor players in the North. Also pretty loyal to Stark, though not Manderly tier.

With the increased prestige that will inevitably fall on our feet once we get production going (and our lands prospering after we re-invest the profits into our lands), we will more than be a good match for Cerwyn's daughter, especially since he does have sons.

Sons that die in WoFK, though with the Bran Plan that might get thwarted. Depends on how fast and loose anons want to play the Game of Thrones.

Oh and from the discord:

anon:QM will Manderly prohibit us selling gunpowder to neighbouring lords and merchants?
anon: Does he demand 100% of the gunpowder be sold in his port?
QM: No, they just need to be sold through white harbor.
QM: Meaning he will collect his cut on every transaction
anon: Oh so we can set up shop
anon: in white harbour?
QM: Yea you can sell them in White Harbor as much as you like
>>
>>3095415
>I'm actually in favour with a Cerwyn alliance. It's unlikely for us to get married with Stannis' one daughter with the age difference (minor concern) and the need for political marriages (major concern), and likewise for the Starks. Cerwyns are direct vassals to the Ned, and while not ultra-powerful, they aren't exactly minor players in the North. Also pretty loyal to Stark, though not Manderly tier.
Yeah they are in an interesting position as I described back when we were hunting with them if I remember rightly. Conventionally powerful but not particularly interesting.

>With the increased prestige that will inevitably fall on our feet once we get production going (and our lands prospering after we re-invest the profits into our lands), we will more than be a good match for Cerwyn's daughter, especially since he does have sons.
Very true.

>Sons that die in WoFK, though with the Bran Plan that might get thwarted. Depends on how fast and loose anons want to play the Game of Thrones.
True but getting married into that family, even if we don't get lands, is still good to tie us to the north.

>Oh and from the discord:
Cool. We just need to sell shit and make sure he gets his share. That I can live with.
>>
Also does anyone have any ideas how we could make some quick / easy money? I think we've covered most of the obvious ones (developing new tech and selling the rights / designs, taking advantage of our extremely high metalworking skill to get noble commissions for shit, gambling / betting with other lords about future events) but I'm interested in case we've missed a obvious route to even a few dozen more Dragons given every penny helps.

I keep trying to figure out a way to combine martial practice / combat and generating money. That way we can train our fighting skills and make a profit at the same time. Problem is it ain't exactly appropriate for a lord to put out a notice saying "hey I'm looking for people to fight, you win you get 20 Dragons (or something), I win then you give me your sword / whatever weapon you use".

At best we could look into challenging lords to duels I guess? But we'd need a genuine reason unless they were happy to engage in such behaviour and if that were the case, we could have a genuine relationship built out of that. There was also my, admittedly kinda dumb, plan to just stay in the Stark's forests hunting bears for fun / funds / food and designing shit back at our camp.
>>
Anon's plan for world domination, or at least conquest of the stepstones
Step one: Become Manderlys vassal, take the extra land to ensure steady powder production and his aid in keeping us safe. Two soild bonuses.
Step two: While building the galleon write to several sailor lords offering them to join us in hunting pirates and slavers around the free cites. Come up with some kind of plunder cut such as they get to keep half of all loot they take, and a third of all loot we take will be divided amongst those who sail with us.
Step three: If we get enough responses announce to the world we intend to launch a major hunt for pirates and slavers along the Narrow sea and ask any good and honest men to come aid us in exchange for Fame, Gold, Glory, and the love of God(s)
Step Four: With those that have chosen to sail with us meet us at some major port such as: Kings Landing, Dragonstone, Gulltown, Maidenpool, Tarth or some other ship rally point.
Step Five: Set sail for Myr and with our force blockade them until they pay us 80K gold and free every slave who follows the Faith Of The Seven.
Step Six: While blockading them offer to any sellsails or Mercs to join up with us for Fame, Gold, and Glory.
Step Seven: Once paid set sail for Tyrosh, Lys and Volantis demanding the same from them, and offer to Mercs the same deal.
Step Eight: With our plunder hoard and army in tow launch an attack on Bloodstone, the largest island in the Stepstones and where the last King of the Stepstones and the Narrow sea ruled.
Step Nine: Invade the rest of the Stepstones (except Tyrosh) taking the land from pirates and giving members of the Faith land to live on.
Step Ten: With conquest of the Stones done, ask to be named Lord Paramount of the Stepstones from Robert.
Step Eleven: If named Lord Paramount then pay off and send away those who do not swear vassalage to us, then start plans to build upon our land with the aid of the former slaves.
Step Twevle: Build a set of Forts along the Stepstones, and tax any ship that passes through such waters, or sink them with our cannons. Force ship carried members of the Faith Of The Seven as slaves to be taking without repayment.
Step Thirteen: Invent airships.

As a way to get added money we could also make the Free Citys give us Loans at 20-30% interest to be repaid in ten years, on top of the fee we charge to no longer blockade them.

So what do you think.
>>
>>3095890
would play this ck2esque campaign/10
>>
>>3095890
>So what do you think.
There are enough stages where it could go wrong that us becoming a paramount lord will take precise and dedicated action to prevent our supporting forces fragmenting and to stop the Free cities trying to kill us for what you suggest. It's ballsy, risky, insane and by god it takes guts to even suggest it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBaksvm8NDY
>>
>>3095890
As Vassal of Manderlys, you can kiss goodbye to prospect of becoming a Lord Paramount of Stepstones in any official capacity.
>>
>>3096363
As Vassal of the Starks aren't we largely in the same position?
>>
>>3096383
You are one step lower in social hierarchy as Manderly's vassal.
While it is hypothetically possible to forfeit your titles in the North and be granted others, achieving this becomes more difficult when your vassalage needs to be retracted.
Also, he probably would not be at all happy about attacking the free cities since he does trade with them.

Finally, if your plan is seizing land in stepstones, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to swear fealty for few plots of land.
>>
>>3096598
In general, I think this reinforces my point.

We shouldn't construct this giant death barge right now. We should look into securing our lands by alliances and ground troops. Then, in a year and a bit's time, we can look into creating a Galleon with any power we have accumulated in that time at a far lower cost without risking our god damn ability to repay our loan to Stark.


Seriously, every anon here is obsessed with get-powerful-quick schemes rather than playing the long game of getting the various lords of the north into bidding wars over the rights to our powder and to our hand in marriage while developing new tech to trade to them for favours / resources as well as sending shit to our family and asking for aid in return.

Not to imply I don't also have my fair share of such ideas but Christ, this ship is half our loan from Stark: it's about five sevenths of our current treasury.
>>
>>3096701
>this ship is half our loan from Stark: it's about five sevenths of our current treasury

worth it for a f l o a t i n g b i g d i c k
>>
>>3096706
A giant cock is useless if all one can do is use it to stroke their ego.
>>
>>3096709
We can use it to slap each Free City so hard they agree to pay us a fuck ton and free all their Westerosi slaves.
>>
>>3096712
And in doing so piss of Manderly as well as anyone who trades with them.

You are also assuming we'd manage to take them down, we have at this moment in time about 200 men. A paltry force compared to the enemies you suggest fighting.

Not to mention our reliance on gunpowder may prove our doom given we could easily run through it firing full broadsides of cannon at fleets of enemy ships. We can only resupply here in Westeros and even then we can't do so to any large scale for a fair amount of time.
>>
>>3096598
>You are one step lower in social hierarchy as Manderly's vassal.
>While it is hypothetically possible to forfeit your titles in the North and be granted others, achieving this becomes more difficult when your vassalage needs to be retracted.
It will matter a lot less where we stand if we can aid the Royal family enough, that they will interced on our behalf.

>Also, he probably would not be at all happy about attacking the free cities since he does trade with them.
How could he, a fellow knight and follower of the Seven repremand us for free our reiligous brothers and sisters from the shackles of slavery?

>Finally, if your plan is seizing land in stepstones, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to swear fealty for few plots of land.
Not just for a few plots of land but for the glory and renown, not to mention a good deal of gold, of serving the man who brought four free cities to heel and then united the stepstones in a manner not seen ever before in history?
And we'll be collecting tolls on every ship to pass through giving a steady income.
>>
the big ship was a bad idea and those who voted for it have bad endded this life /quest
>>
>>3096949
It's possible we can make the best out of it.
Even if our land gets the tits raided out of it we'll still have the mightiest ship ever built.
>>
>>3096949
Yep
>>
>>3096968
I don't fucking care if we have the biggest ship our name will be run through the dirt and no one will ever trust us with a loan again
>>
cannons cost 30 g with 3 wealth 600g we could of started an artillery corps instead and shown the power of cannons in an army, but noooo we had to have to buy one ship we can't even sail cause we will be stuck in castle setting up our industry because we can't fuck off to the free citys while we are setting this up
>>
>>3096977
Anon stop being so overdramatic.
Boats are cool and city management is less cool.
We'll be fine.
>>
>>3096986
Stop whingeing ffs.
People voted how they voted.
>>
>>3096995
stop making stupid and impulsive decisions
>>
>>3096986
>>3096971
>>3096968
Just checking all you lads have already voted for the
>Nah, come to think if it, it's too expensive
in the current vote?

Cause that'd allow us to step back from this endeavour.
>>
>>3097004
yeah I did
>>
>>3097002
No.
No fun in quests without impulsive decisions.
>>
>>3095238
>Nah, come to think if it, it's too expensive
>>
>>3097015
>No fun in quests without impulsive decisions.
I entirely disagree and don't understand how you would even come to that conclusion.
>>
>>3096949
QQ more
You got outvoted stop being a salty cunt
>>
>>3095190
How about "Darkest before Dawn"
>>
>>3097015
>>3097057
It's almost like two different people can have differing opinions on how they like quests to turn out, wow!
>>
How about "The Longest Day"?
>>
I like 'The Winter Solstice'.
>>
>>3095238
>The Citadel. It has the most learned craftsmen.
>>
>>3095238
>>Nah, come to think if it, it's too expensive
>>
>The Citadel. It has the most learned craftsmen.
>>
I'm switching from supporting Manderly vassalage to staying as direct vassal to the Starks. The profit from conquering Bloodstones, a fortress in one of the Stepstones, is minimum 250k-350k if we sell it to Braavos - a feat which is entirely possible with our ship. The profit from blockading one of the Free Cities and getting "please stop blocking our ports" money (like what they pay the Dothrakis) is minimum 100K, again according to QM, though we would need to upgrade our ship beforehand since attacking a stationary fort is different from being chased by half a thousand ships, so we need steam to outpace them while consistently cannonading them, so we don't get zerged.

With these new options in hand, it's clear that near-complete political autonomy (Manderly would want a cut in our Essosi wild rides) is paramount if we are to make repeated ventures to Essos. The amount of wealth we will get from them in a potentially semi-regular manner is stupendous. Remember, Essos is vastly wealthier than Westeros by far.
>>
>Nah, come to think if it, it's too expensive
>>
>Whites
>>3095243
>>3095248
>>3095252
>>3095255
>>3095257
>>3095258
>>3095271
>>3095286
>>3095333
>>3095351


>Greys
>>3095412
>>3097848
>>3098287


>Big nose tribe
>>3095239
>>3095281
>>3095316
>>3097054
>>3098281
>>3098384

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAmPCOj0PhY
>>
>>3095238
>>White Harbor. It's close enough to check up on and should have best raw materials.
I don't want to become a vassal but there's no reason why we can't partner with Wyman on stuff like this. He has the facilities and suppliers we lack, and we have the expertise and ideas. We can both profit immensely from any project we do together.

It's likely that we could negotiate a substantial discount. Apart from the prestige of building the best warship in the world (which could lead to orders from the crown and other lords) his shipwrights will learn a lot from us. We're not willing to give him gun tech but peak wooden warship tech could definitely be that unique thing Wyman has been wanting, something White Harbour could be known for.
>>
>Whites Harbor

"White Harbor seems reasonable. We can check on the construction personally and it'd be a waste not to make use of the excellent quality northern timber. Besides, I reckon this is the sort of thing Lord Wyman would be rather interested of."
Manrel nods
"Very good my lord. We shall book you trip on the next courier ship if it pleases you."
"Should be fine. I do need the time to actually make the schematics for the vessel anyhow before departing as well. Is there anything else on the docket?"
"Not much my Lord, Merely overseeing the monthly reports and giving us feedback of on how you would better seek us to govern your domain."

>It's time for the monthly House Fortunes!

Choose!
>Raise a single resource by one and forgo house fortunes roll
>Have your Seneschal roll the dice to see how he governs the domain this month

Additionally, give me 5d6+4 Knowledge roll to see how you do on building up schematics and planning the work stages for your vessel.
>>
Rolled 5, 2, 4, 5, 4 + 4 = 24 (5d6 + 4)

>>3098415
Which is better, asking for seneschal to roll or raising one resource?
>>
Rolled 3, 6, 6, 1, 2 + 4 = 22 (5d6 + 4)

>>3098415
>Have Seneschal roll the dice
>>
Rolled 1, 5, 3, 4, 3 + 4 = 20 (5d6 + 4)

>>3098415

>fortunes roll
>>
>>3098420
>>3098418
I'll go for the roll as well then
>>
>>3098415
Take +1 Land

And fuck no, no rolling. I posted the goddamn table last thread. Its a fucking minefield. There is a reason we are not allowed to go +1 every time and *have* to roll every third month.
>>
>>3098415
+1 Land
More L A N D for buildings
>>
>>3098415
>Raise a single resource by one and forgo house fortunes roll
gimme land
>>
>>3098415
raise land by one
>>
>>3098415
+1 to land
>>
>>3098415
>Land, land, land.
https://youtu.be/Nl9409NQPuU
>>
>>3098415
Fortune roll!
>>
>>3098415
+1 Land
>>
>>3098415
>Have your Seneschal roll the dice to see how he governs the domain this month
>>
>>3098415
>Have your Seneschal roll the dice to see how he governs the domain this month
>>
>>3096709
Anon if you have a giant cock and the only thing you're stroking is your ego than you're just not doing it right.
>>
>>3098417
Looks like Ruger taught you to design a ship well enough.
>>
>>3098964
Yeah well when this investment pays off to our benefit I'll agree that this isn't a massive ego trip / bad idea. Don't get me wrong, I think such a massive domineering warship could be very useful. I do however think we should have at least reviewed the other options to solve our issues before jumping on board the death barge plan when this near bankrupts us.

Especially when the whole goal of this exercise was to secure our lands from piracy and then everyone agreed we should instead take this ship about as far from our lands as we can to become a pirate / conqueror / extortionist.

I'd much rather we formed a few units of line infantry and then when our lands are more secure, send them away as mercs.
>>
>>3099391
Question OP, when you describe it as a 80 gun ship am I right in assuming that is the number of guns on one side?
>>
>>3099564
Negative. 40 per side. I dont think anyone even got to a 160 gun ship IRL.
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>>3099564
No that's in total, 160 cannons on a ship is fucking insane, like I believe napoleon once had 440 or so total in his Grande Armée, I might be wrong with the once, but even 80 is a huge amount, especially since only we have them.
>>
>>3099588
>>3099590
Aye I thought that it sounded way too high. Though I have to ask, why aren't we going with 30 guns a side?

I'm mostly asking because if each cannon is 30 Gold Dragons then dropping 20 cannons would save us 600 Gold Dragons. That is enough to afford hiring a unit of Sailor-Soldiers and still have 200 Gold Dragons.
>>
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Didn't we inscribe Latin on the long night? We should think up something cool to decorate this beast with, seeing as we'll probably get outvoted to create a literal supercarrier the next time this option comes up. We gotta make this thing shine.
>>
>>3099418
I mean, a giant castle crushing warship with weaponry beyond anything else anyone else has would make conquering lands, like the stepstones easier to take, increasing our land without becoming a vassal, so that's one point
>>
>>3099640
True but I'd rather pay for it through Power than Wealth given the greater efficiency of doing so. That however requires we wait about a year if we want to get this ship without any real monetary costs but hell it'd be cheaper and wouldn't really change our plans: we're going to need to gather troops to hold whatever lands you plan on invading.
>>
>>3095217
>>3095190
>Winter Solstice
>Literally "The Longest Night"
Perfect.
>>
>>3095190
Officially putting my support behind 'The Winter Solstice'.
>>
>>3095190
Putting my support behind "The Hammer of Water"
>>
It's a shame we don't have a wife or other woman we could name our ship after.


Also, if we're going to take this massive ship on a tour of Essos killing pirates, extorting money and all that shit, could we possibly find the time to make our way to the Yi Ti? I can't deny I quite want to visit this fantasy china. Mostly to see if we can't pick up any nicknacks or goods that we can sell / use as gifts back in Westeros for lots of money but also for any unique knowledge we could get.

We might also consider visiting Valyria when we're passing by: if we're careful we might even find something of interest. Though we'd need a good counter to the "local population" given the sheer number of stone men there would present a significant risk if they manage to get in close range.

Also we could consider stopping off in Sothoryos or Ulthos. Though they are basically unsettled (Ulthos is known of but no settlements are mentioned, Sothoryos's natives are savage but trade does occur. Also there are some abandoned settlements from Valyria and elsewhere which should have good shit).

Not to mention the Summer isles though they are quite out of the way but if we perform our journey as a giant loop, there is little reason we couldn't make a stop there.


Admittedly visiting all these places in any real detail could take months, maybe even more than a year. Yet imagine coming back to Westeros with all the cool shit we could get: spices from distant lands (at far lower prices than might otherwise be conferrable, given we could buy at the source and not pass it through a chain of dealers), fine art, strange animals and plants. Not to mention books, weapons and so on.

It'd be a damn cool thing and might even be profitable if we make some intelligent decisions and line up some buyers / investors.
>>
>>3099891
the lives of nobles are usually more long than the one of the peasants, so if we don t get any disease, stay in shape ecc.... it could be possible.


but now is not the main objective and it would be better to do it with a fleet of galleons not just one.... and researching other techs before going could help.


or just in another life, afterall we can learn to build this ships now, and build one in another life for do the travel. or several.
>>
>>3099918
I'll be honest I'm struggling to understand what your post means but I get what you mean...I think.


I do agree doing what I'm advising would be easier with a full fleet of Galleons, preferably more lightly armed with more cargo space, but that'd take a lot more money and time than we currently have access to. If we did the run I'm advising we might manage to gather an interest in funding further expeditions.


Still, I'm mostly just saying we should also make sure to grab cargo and oddities where we can to use back in Westeros for fame, fortune and so on. I mean only a small portion of nobles ever bother to visit Essos and yet we'd be going a step beyond that. If we bring back books, stories or anything truly unique, people will pay for it because the chance of another coming by soon from these distant lands are fairly low.
>>
>>3099939
i would prefer to wait and get new techs.
or do it in another life.
>>
>>3099956
I suppose but we can't rely on our future lives working out as well as this one.
>>
>>3095190
>The Winter Solstice
Its just too good to pass up
>>
>>3099979
the techs, knowledge and experience we will get in this life will help immensely in future ones.


even if we start with a beggar kid or a peasant.
>>
>>3100029
Then you must also agree that the experience and knowledge we could gain in our travels would be hugely beneficial.

After all, it's not like we can't design shit when we are performing this massive journey across the world. In fact I'd quite encourage such a thing along side Charles Darwin style specimen collection.
>>
>>3100022
Yass and its only 11 days from now too irl, lets do it
>>
>>3100029
The tech doesn't stay the knowledge of it stays in your head but the technology itself like all the people you met and all the connections you made go up in a puff of smoke
>>
>>3100317
Smoke because I assume we're going to die in a fiery explosion every single time. Possibly put it into our will that we want our body to be put on a boat full of gunpowder and blown up
>>
Actually three questions OP:

1) Do we have any idea how long Stannis is going to keep his ships in the Bite?

2) Is the 12 Power military cost accounting for the fact a shipyard or tar works (as Manderly or the other ports mentioned almost certainly have) reduces the creation cost by 2 and 1 respectively?

3) A Shipwright artisan also reduces the cost by 2. Given our skill in this area, could we not ask to directly manage our ship's construction for this bonus, assuming that there was a lack of one and even if there was one, by doing so avoid having to pay such an individual / free them to continue working else where thus reducing the cost.


Apologise for how dumb these questions, specifically the 2nd and 3rd are, I'm just looking to save any penny we can on this endeavour because I am a tightfisted bastard when it comes to parting with cash or the opportunity to make it.
>>
>>3100359
Oh and also, will the construction of this ship take more than 4 months?
>>
Reminder that calling our ship "The Winter Solstice" is silly for multiple reasons
Least of all the fact that the Long Night is longer than any Solstice on account of it lasting for years.
Or that Solstice is derived from the Latin name for the sun, Sol.
It's also probably something that nobody even knows is a thing at all because nobody actually properly keeps time.
>>
>>3095190
Hammer of The Waters or Daybreaker/Sunrise
>>
>>3100682
>It's also probably something that nobody even knows is a thing at all because nobody actually properly keeps time
Kind of a nonpoint considering our last ship had a bunch of latin written on it, which confused people because latin isn't a thing here so it was basically foreign gibberish. I don't think the majority actually cares if people get the name or not, in fact I think anons like confusing the people of westeros.
>>
>>3100826
That's because that was shit engraved on our ship that added to it's image when you see it.
Not like we called it Veni Vidi Veci or something.
We may as well name it Garglebargley for the same effect.
>>
>>3100359

>1. No, he isn't giving any timeframe until he pulls out because he isn't Obama. He is there until he finds his job done.

>2. 12 Military power accounts for the cost of a finished product. Of course while it is in production you can design some... extra features to add to it, thus increasing it's cost.

>3. There is not a lack of one in White Harbor, many masters of their craft do actually live in there and White Harbor is one of the better ports for ship building. While you could substitute for this role to an extent, this also means leaving your lands for the duration of the construction.

>4. As you are building it from ground up, the Project should take around one and a half years to two years to complete. Now, you might question why this is faster than the Long Night, the answer is simply because you learned from the mistakes on Long Night's design (thanks to moderately high roll) and because White Harbor does have experience in building carracks in the past, so they actually do have of the parts needed to build ready in storage.
>>
>>3100682
>Implying that's how Winters work in ASOIAF
>Implying common tongue doesn't have tons of other loan words from languages and civilizations that do not exist in the world.
>Implying the world doesn't place religious significance to movement of stellar bodies and base their calendars around them, rather than around seasons.
>>
>>3100843
>1. No, he isn't giving any timeframe until he pulls out because he isn't Obama. He is there until he finds his job done.
So he's going to stay until the problem is resolved? How likely is he to be successful and is there any chance of him getting dragged away by the king / his duties elsewhere?

>2. 12 Military power accounts for the cost of a finished product. Of course while it is in production you can design some... extra features to add to it, thus increasing it's cost.
Good to know, if we were to build more in our own lands at a later date and lacked the buildings / specialists specified, would we have a higher cost? Or would we still pay 12 military power.

>3. There is not a lack of one in White Harbor, many masters of their craft do actually live in there and White Harbor is one of the better ports for ship building.
Excellent.

>While you could substitute for this role to an extent, this also means leaving your lands for the duration of the construction.
To be fair, it's not like we are really needed in our lands and any reduction in ship cost / improvement in quality is good when dealing with something this expensive, slow to do and important. Plus it would help with adding any special features like you mentioned.

>4. As you are building it from ground up, the Project should take around one and a half years to two years to complete. Now, you might question why this is faster than the Long Night, the answer is simply because you learned from the mistakes on Long Night's design (thanks to moderately high roll) and because White Harbor does have experience in building carracks in the past, so they actually do have of the parts needed to build ready in storage.
That honestly just sounds like a reason to NOT build it currently. If it's going to take 18 to 24 months to build then suddenly delaying our construction by even as much as 6 months isn't actually all that much of a change in terms of when it arrives yet it would cut the cost in half, potentially even more than that assuming we got our family to send us some "Power", got lucky on the House rolls table or such.

I mean it's nice to know we're better at designing ships / not taking forever to build them (next time we make a Long night, assume there'd be savings in time / money (from not paying for the yard space and labour for so long)).


Also can I just say it seems really weird to me that this ship is so...cheap. I mean we can barely get two units of musketmen for the same price and a unit of trained war cogs costs the same. Based off your numbers / the images you posted from a few threads back.
>>
>>3100899
Oh right I forgot GRRM was a hack.
I wasn't implying all winters either, just the Long Night considering it supposedly lasted for a generation and was, well, night.
It just seems like taking a step backwards.
Like naming our first ship Inferno and the second ship Ember or something.
>>
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>>3100843
>you can design some... extra features to add to it

You mean like bone exterior & a pit with a Constrictus in it to feed our enemies to?

https://youtu.be/I_5F1zYQF5M
>>
>>3100954
Why would we bother with something like that when we could install a printing press to mass produce copies of books or even install a large flame projector turret towards the front of the ship, so we can breathe fire onto our enemies.

Not to mention we could have a proper cargo crane rather than a little construable one. Maybe even a section of removable flooring on each level so we don't have a giant tube of dead space for it too.
>>
>Features
Steam powered combat speed!
Explosive shells!
Breech Loading Cannons!
Rifled Barrels!
Hydraulic recoil systems!
Muzzle brakes!
Grenade firing puckle guns!
Steam powered pumps!
Optic sights!
Turret mounts!
>>
>>3101094
two or three of those and we should be fine.
Remember that we will need to manufacture a fuckton of heavy cannons, and explosive shells may have to be handcrafted by ourselves.

Plus we don't want any feature to great since we will be selling this one to Stannis too, at a inflated market price once we get two or three more standard hulls.
So when we bring in the third ship desing it can also outclass it even if we don't have it a a ironclad should we not be able to due to lack of raw material and skilled labor in that domain.
>>
>>3101318
If we can make such bank with this thing, why even sell it?
>>
>>3101323
to get five hulls worth out of it for the inflated price
and make the royals feel better about having a equivalent.
Then we can solidify our gunship lead and as a trophy as the lead ship of the most daring naval action yet
Get the most out of the first galleon. Larger fleet so we can secure our shit and get bigger income stream from our endeavors to fund stepstones takeover, ironclads or airships or whatever the fuck we decide to do.
>>
>>3101362
>to get five hulls worth out of it for the inflated price
To be fair, I doubt we will get that much. Stannis might agree that our new ship is a beast in combat but paying 20,000 Gold Dragons might just be a bit much.

If anons can prove it's worth in combat however, as a mix of god damn artillery battery and mobile fortification, then we can probably get 14,400 Gold Dragons or there abouts at least. Plus we'll make some money proving it's value if we are lucky.
>>
>>3101362
But why not just keep it, use the first raid money to make additional ships and be the only one with Galleons if we can squeeze 100k out of a Free City? Seems more prudent to me in every sense.
>>
>>3101367
Actually, my mistake, the price for five hulls would be 24,000 not 20,000.

>>3101369
If we can get that much money then I'd think the prestige of our highly successful raid would make our ship even more valuable than it's actual military worth. Not to mention we can't just keep raiding the free cities for money given they'd eventually turn to assassins, alliances or be ruined by our actions.

Far better to build up our industries in the north and create a strong and steady income to supplement whatever we get by trading and raiding. Especially if we can secure one of the Stepstones: then we'd want to build a fortification and that takes time, money and a lot of people.

Also if we are going to secure the Stepstones, we'll want to design some light and fast interdiction ships to patrol for traders to tax and to destroy pirates. Some lighter versions of the Long night would work but if we're basing from a fort in the region they don't need the range of the original craft.
>>
>>3101376
You do realize we wont get as much by selling it as we will by using it, right? Also, the Long Night, with cannons, ran us some 1000 Gold. We can spam out more than enough of these with the kind of cash that ransoming a Free City brings, as well as expanding our lands back home/on the Stepstones.

And why would we ever sell off the only type of ship that could oppose us instead of folding into the Crown system while keeping control of our ships?
>>
Let's name the ship Christmas. Holiday is coming for the poor Andal slaves in Myr!
>>
>>3101381
>You do realize we wont get as much by selling it as we will by using it, right?
You realise we're only going to be able to raid the free cities a few times before they are unwilling to pay any ransom? Which leaves the Stepstones and lands further afield. One which lacks an established ruler and developed economy, the other which is too far away for us to travel there regularly without falling near-entirely out of contact with Westerosi events.

>Also, the Long Night, with cannons, ran us some 1000 Gold.
Which was done with the aid of a archmaester who liked us to grease the wheels and keep costs low. I doubt it should be so easy this time.

>We can spam out more than enough of these with the kind of cash that ransoming a Free City brings, as well as expanding our lands back home/on the Stepstones.
Potentially but I'm conservative in my estimates for this venture. We have one ship and lack an army to control the land: a proper blockade would require the ability to cut off trade by land and thus stop food entering the city until our demand was met. We can still force a settlement given most trade comes by sea but still, short of bombarding their walls down and threatening to destroy the entire city we can't really ransom them.

We can threaten their economy, sure, but these cities have been attacked before and almost certainly have dealt with sieges and naval blockades. Difference is we're there for money rather than land and that means they'll probably be more open to talks.

>And why would we ever sell off the only type of ship that could oppose us instead of folding into the Crown system while keeping control of our ships?
Because we can always make more? Fact is the crown is dependent on us for powder and we plan on siding with the man who would have control over this and any other gunpowder ships in the royal fleet when events come to pass. There is little risk in giving them stuff like this.

>>3101390
Doesn't exist in Westeros. Although we could name it something like "Chainbreaker" or "Freedom's bell".
>>
>>3101401
If we do even 2 raids, the sales price would need to be truly massive to justify selling it.

Nah senpai, the one we made was decorated and the Measters deal would chip off a measely 200 Gold. We can make them at 1000 a pop.

Why would we control the land? As well, most of the cities rely on the water, since dothraki can show up and raid them by land. Hence the high walls and trade focuses.

We can sell them more Long Night variants at a cheaper price while holding onto the Galleons. No downside and its not like they wont want more cannonships.

Point is, its more valuable to us as a tool rather than a poker chip and unless the price doesnt go near 40k I see no reason to sell it. Hell, one run of a city and we can set up enough defenses at home to outlast any siege by land or water.
>>
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>Hold em
>>3098418
>>3098420
>>3098422
>>3098541
>>3098634
>>3098650


>Fold em
>>3098428
>>3098429
>>3098431
>>3098432
>>3098454
>>3098459
>>
Rolled 1 (1d2)

1 Hold em
2 Fold em
>>
>>3101470
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hx4gdlfamo

>>3101471
And anon just *wants* to fuck us.
>>
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Rolled 3, 6, 6, 2, 4, 6, 1, 5 = 33 (8d6)

Two of the lowest dice will be discarded.
Manrel has a Master's degree on medieval economics and 2 bonus dice.
>>
Rolled 1 (1d2)

Also, since you got +2 total on house fortunes, time to see how much you get extra to that score.
>>
31
You receive [GROWTH]
You may improve any resource by a single point (+ Any modifiers if you had any.)
>>
>>3101491
+1 Land it is then.
>>
Right, I'll stick it in there. Seems like land has fair bit of support.
>>
>>3101497
>>3101500
we could go for a extra dot in power if we want to keep down cost of the ships so we have more gold to upgrade it
>>
>>3101530
I'll change it if people want to.
>>
>>3101530
Dont really care. I mean we will either need to spend 400G per point of Land or point of Power. I suppose it would be nicer to chip off 400 from the ship so we have more spending money before we fuck off. though then again, we will need to dump 6kG into the Port pretty soon as well. Doesnt matter really.
>>
>>3101537
Nah, land is fine
>>
>>3101537
I agree with >>3101653
Land, please.
>>
>>3101484
Actually, whil discarding the two lowest dice, isn’t it 30?
>>
>>3102022
It is but it seems that we got 1d2 bonus >>3101486
>>
>>3102022
house fortune bonuses from your holdings amount to 2, so you roll 1d2 to see how much you get to add to it.

if you had 5, it would be 1d5
>>
Rolled 2 (1d2)

>>3102241
Check em
>>
One moment, I'm going to calculate which resource we should put this shit in. This is what I get for having a nap.
>>
>>3101540
I'd point out that if we're going to leave here for a long while with our ship, then we can leave expansion of our industries and businesses for our return and therefore should instead focus on gathering as much Power as possible until we leave our lands.

Fact is our maesters are smart but not so smart as to create our industries for us unless we teach them how our shit works. Which means we have to either be there, send them a letter containing an explanation or rely on simpler methods that already exist so we can tell them to just built that.

Thus, before we leave, we want to save as much money as possible so when we return after all our months away gathering cash, we can use the land they'll have generated in that period (through house rolls) to create a bunch of brand new industries and such.

Not to mention, remaining highly solvent financially will aid us in Essos: there are lots of goods, books and trainers there that would be rare in Westeros. Not to mention the possibility of hiring merc bands to aid us in our plans.

>>3102316
God dammit, not a single one of our holdings gives an actual bonus to resource gain. Which means we're only able to get +1 of anything. At least once our powder mill and sulphur refinery are done we get a bonus I think.
>>
Oh, that reminds me, I was looking at the conversions list because I was curious what converted to power and I noticed that we could turn population into Power.

On the one hand, we don't exactly need the population right now and saving even a small amount of money could be hugely useful. On the other, our estate has a fairly low population and we're just barely at our current "benefit level" and taking the two to one conversion would grant us a malus on House rolls.
>>
>>3102930
Low population means penalties to house fortunes.
>>
>>3102341
No lowering Pop, otherwise we wont be able to get the Large Town upgrade.

Also, the ship will take a good 1,5 to 2 years to build, meanwhile, we need the port pronto. Same with the saltpeter but we can hopefully get a Crown loan for that. No Port means we cant trade powder, no saltpeter means our powder is not too profitable. And unless you plan to postpone everything for 2 years, it doesnt really matter.
>>
>>3100682
>>3100839
People would still know what a solstice is. Humans have been tracking the passage of time using the sun since the Neolithic era and even in Martin's medieval fantasy funland farmers still need to know when to plant their crops if nothing else.
>>
Ok few changes since you in North

>[Cheap Land]: Lands purchases now are 1:1 with Wealth. Lands gains from house fortunes +1
>[Untamed North] Cannot purchase Law if not taking penalties for low law.
>[Harsh climate] Conversion of extra population resource is now 1 for 3 Wealth.

Sound good?
>>
>>3103616
We now take +1 Power, instead of Land, due to difference in cost.
>>
>>3103616
I like it, it fits well.
>>
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> 24

After the meeting, you put your hands to use spent approximately a week making models, weights and a fan naturally to test the aerodynamic capabilities of your miniature vessels.
It also had a little paddles underwater to create simulated waves.

Maester Tobias and Stuar found the whole process of a test bed rather novel and interesting as you began your experiments with the various models of ships, comparing them to a model Carrack.

The Aerodynamic improvements alone produced clear results, not only increasing the sail steering capacity of the vessel, but also it's acceleration and top speed, but it was truly the hull stability which won over the traditional Carrack.

As weights were placed into these small vessels to simulate cargo, it was clear which vessel handled better in the "Storm simulation." albeit the proof of the pudding is in the eating.

With the rough shape now verified by somewhat empirical evidence, you began writing down the work process stages for the vessel. You had after all, seen ships built before. Several times in the Iron Islands and once when you partook on the years of construction with Ruger.

You knew the somewhat clumsy logistics of the operation, even if the craftsmen themselves were skilled. You knew it had room for improvement and made clear and concise plan as to in which order the vessel would be assembled.

You knew first-hand when an engineer handed you a paper and told you to get the part done, they often spent little to no time actually thinking about how to actually machine the finished product.

It is the same with ships. You show up and ask to have something built to desired dimensions, it's the shipwright who has to figure out how to make it work, in this area Ruger did help you improve greatly.

After days of scribbling together a clear plan of construction and having double and triple checked it with the assistance of your Maesters, the prospect of actually negotiating this deal became the next affair to consider.

You did have a fair bit of things you could barter with, the question is what exactly are you willing to bring to the table as bartering chips beyond the Learning on the construction of your Mano'war patterns and gaining potential prestige for it's construction.

> You can also negotiate for lands, money and other things depending on what you are willing to bring to the table. Whether Wyman will accept is another thing however.

> Method of manufacturing compasses as well as the explanation why they function.
> The Long Night's ship schematics and construction notes
> Gold. You've got a treasury full of the stuff, might as well use it.
> Future favors. Might be bit of a loose thing, but an IOU can go for a long way for a noble house.
> Write-in (Something else?)
>>
>>3103635
> Method of manufacturing compasses as well as the explanation why they function.
> The Long Night's ship schematics and construction notes

In return for the two plots of Land north of us. We get enough slots so we can expand without worry (for a time) and Manderly gets the tools to build the fastest ship on the seas. If that is not sweet enough, throw on some coin (as the new price for the two plots is 5500 Gold, it shouldnt be too much with the schematics and compasses, plus our gunpowder industry will draw more buyers for his ship as well).
>>
>>3103635
> [Cannons]: "I was thinking I'd give you a discount on some cannons once we get them in production."
>>
>>3103668
Depends on how many cannons. If their monetary value is less than what we would need to pay in gold on top, sure. However, no big deals since we can squeeze quite a bit once we do the Free Cities run, even Bloodstone.
>>
>>3103635

>Write-in (Something else?)

"Power, I bring the prospect of a marvel of technology something that would give a huge advantage to any lord that has the knowledge to see that this is a huge advantage in both the political room and the battlefield.

Beyond that I have the capability of fulfilled ambition, it should not come as a surprise that someone who has the knowledge and experience to not only briing forth a working (blueprint?) of a ship that could surpass any ship currently active but could also make changes to the current navy which will give anyone who is patriotic enough an advantage and so-doing a smaller death toll in any battle.

I am the catalyst of a new era and if thats not enough you are not far-sighted enough to see the potential"
>>
>>3103662
Change to this .
>>
>>3103674
So we edgy monologue stroke our ego in front of him and hope for what exactly?
>>
>>3103690

I will admit I was selling it a bit I dont really see the the need to give him more than what we are already giving which is something that will give him an advantage in both trade and war, it has the potential to make whoever has it a major player in the realm.
>>
>>3103693
Not without our cannons, which is what he is after. Trading the other schematics for the land should be an ok deal, especially since the ships themselves are largely harmless without our weapons.
>>
>>3103696

fair enough, we are still giving him an advantage in trade but we are getting way more in return

I vote for this >>3103662
>>
Keep in mind, you also have to manufacture the cannons somewhere.
You could set it up so he and his men cast the cannons for you and that will also be a valuable experience whilst you take them home for boring.
Alternatively, you could simply have them forged at home at home and tank the cost.
>>
I think the best bargaining chip would be stuff that would turn white Harbour into a massive trade Powerhouse.
Compasses, trade ships and perhaps even Gunsmithing
>>
>>3103635
>Galleon designs
> Method of manufacturing compasses as well as the explanation why they function.
> The Long Night's ship schematics and construction notes
> Future favors. Might be bit of a loose thing, but an IOU can go for a long way for a noble house.
>Cannon Casting contract where we bore and test barrels and he casts them

These are what I am willing to negotiate with, provided Manderly is willing to tank the cost of the ship, crew, cannons and give us those plots of lands he mentioned earlier.

Naturally, we will keep gunpowder a secret and under control, but they can obviously buy the stuff from us as needed.
With us in control of boring, we know how many cannons they making. We also control supply of powder, so even if they sold cannons in excess, we can still cut powder supplies if they partake in deals we dislike.
>>
>>3103724
>>3103732

I know we're negotiating for stuff we need and obviously Wyman would want to become a massive trade powerhouse, but if we're going to be building our own port and trying to build our own empire, giving someone right next door to us, on the same coast, with a ton more money and advantages the chance to do it before we can sounds stupid.

Obviously we'd keep gunpowder a secret, but even so, I don't want us giving away too much when we can obviously talk our way to a better deal. Not against him making money, but fully against giving him the chance to sell the stuff we created for more profit without us getting a cut of it.
>>
>>3103749
See, the thing is we lack a Drydock, a Dense Woodland and the slots for both. We literally cannot take advantage of this until we have sunk a considerbale amount of coin into this. All in return for having a mediocre drydock where we build a shitty ship every now and then for a 2 Wealth profit? Why not, instead, trade Manderly the designs, get 28 Wealth worth of land and let him have his ships? Not like we wont surpass the design soon anyway. Not like we wont industrialize and become a major manufacturer of anything of note soon anyway.

The designs as they are hold little value to us, however they hold big value for Manderly. Why sit on them rather than sell them? Real estate developers sell their new condos, they dont keep them. Know why? Because the money/time balance is in favour of selling. Just what we are going to do, provided the price is right.
>>
>>3103772
I'll concede on giving him the ship schematics and the compasses, I still think we should keep cannon and gunsmithing to ourselves for the time being.

If he doesn't like just the long night schematics and compasses, even designing a new trade ship for him I'm sure he'd be happy with for what we're asking, as long as we hype up how much its going to help him which is no small amount. That could drum up a lot more business for us from him for cannons/gunpowder. That's all assuming he's willing to give us that much land, if so then I'll back your plan.
>>
>>3103789
Oh we *are* keeping it to ourselves, just that we can sell him some at a discount/just give em to him. And no point blowing smoke up his ass, if he wants more gold, just give it to him. Not like we will lack gold in a few years anyway.
>>
>>3103458
Yeah I know, I specified that could be a problem.

>>3103525
>No lowering Pop, otherwise we wont be able to get the Large Town upgrade.
Do we have any idea how much population we need for that? Because that could be a easy route to a port given our town is on the coast but I wouldn't want to get my hopes up if we need like 20 population for it.

>Also, the ship will take a good 1,5 to 2 years to build, meanwhile, we need the port pronto. Agreed. Though I'd argue what we need is a way to protect our lands from piracy before we start looking into further economic investments. Though I'm certain anons will completely ignore this sound logic...

>Same with the saltpeter but we can hopefully get a Crown loan for that.
To be fair, we could probably

>No Port means we cant trade powder
Not really. It just means we're going to struggle to trade it by sea (which we already were...given it's a brand new product with no established consumer base and we lack any connections to merchants in the region or ships of own (yet another reason why having the trade cogs would've been good)) so we'll have to ship it by land to whomever buys it unless they send a ship or land force to pick it up.

>no saltpeter means our powder is not too profitable.
I mean, we've got sulphur and no competitors. We should be able to sell SOME powder if nothing else.

>And unless you plan to postpone everything for 2 years, it doesnt really matter.
Honestly, I'd argue this isn't really applicable to me. I didn't care for this boat plan and I still don't. Others do, they outvoted me and as much as I may dislike it, I've accepted that they'll probably never change their minds. Which is why I brought this population idea forward, in an attempt to alleviate the action of this construction on our coffers.

>>3103616
>Lands gains from house fortunes +1
Are you going to apply this retroactively OP? Because I'm certain we've done land at least once.

>[Untamed North] Cannot purchase Law if not taking penalties for low law.
So far off that it ain't an issue.

>[Harsh climate] Conversion of extra population resource is now 1 for 3 Wealth.
Hmm, might want to see if our family can't help with this issue.

>>3103618
Agreed.
>>
>>3103635
> The Long Night's ship schematics and construction notes
Only if we get to keep a copy. Fact is the ship is pretty useless without guns and we control the supply of those. At best without them, it's a fast moving ship that requires a good crew and carries a fairly small cargo.

> Gold. You've got a treasury full of the stuff, might as well use it.
Everyone was on board for paying an exorbitant amount for this, might as well.

> Future favors. Might be bit of a loose thing, but an IOU can go for a long way for a noble house.
We're already massively in debt, might as well add non-financial debt too.

> Write-in (Something else?)
Compasses in future shall be offered at 1/3 of the regular price, he can hire out cannons from us at reduced price and same goes for any other units we lease away.

He may also borrow books from our collection to read or copy, though it may be of limited interest, given our various introductory books from the Citadel should at the very least interest him.

Maybe give him the specifications for the "trigger" mechanism of a musket to use to improve crossbows like lord Cerwyn suggested?

> You can also negotiate for lands, money and other things depending on what you are willing to bring to the table. Whether Wyman will accept is another thing however.
All I'd want is land or population. Whatever he is willing to part with.
>>
>>3104264
>All I'd want is land or population. Whatever he is willing to part with.
Actually just land. We can get population from our family in the south and a few other places.
>>
>>3103635
>> The Long Night's ship schematics and construction notes
Without cannons
>>
Also, in the spirit of imperialism and ensuring our continued dominance over the continent of Essos, we should consider forcing a yearly tithe of gold, silver, slaves, silk, jewels and so on from the various cities we raid in return for us not doing so in future.

This avoids us risking our military forces and frees them up for other duties like protecting our home or other conquests while still getting us a source of cash. Not to mention the fact that it is less economically damaging to the free cities than us attacking or blockading, meaning we might leverage a large sum from them.


Consider that if we were to call for 1500 Gold Dragons (7.5 wealth) from each of the (coastal, as those are the only ones we can threaten with our ships) free cities (of which, besides Braavos, there are 6), we'd earn 9,000 Gold Dragons per year. After paying our debts, this means we'd have 80,000 Gold Dragons to throw into new shit over the next decade assuming we didn't increase the amount we extort as our military grows.

That works out to 200 military power, equivalent to another 16.6 Galleons. Although, given the scale of production, I'd argue we'd probably be able to drop the cost per ship from 12 to 11 or even lower just because of the sheer scale of what we're talking about: people would willingly undercut each other to insane degrees to have such consistent and well payed labour for the foreseeable future, not to mention the momentum of building the same thing over and over, etc.


This is of course also assuming we don't start extorting additional cities: enforcing our will on the inland cities or further along the coast. Then the amount of money rises quite quickly to ludicrous degrees.
>>
>>3104219
>>[Harsh climate] Conversion of extra population resource is now 1 for 3 Wealth.
>Hmm, might want to see if our family can't help with this issue
They have no lack of people in the reach and we could pick and choose the most productive and skilled workmen. I guess the question is how many reachmen we can import without annoying our northman neighbors. Though there is a precedent for that sort of thing given that the Manderly's live more or less next door.
>>
>>3105154
True. Though I'd argue there is also the issue of if the smallfolk in their lands will be willing to come north.

To be fair though, I doubt the northmen will be annoyed if we are only taking in people with the purpose of getting our estate's various industries in order and making the north great again (tm).
>>
>>3105154
Population also refers to your capability of sustaining a population of higher density, which is why you can't plonk down cities and large towns without a high population value.

After all, giving impoverished people lands and fishing waters to work on does help accommodate a larger population overall, which is why larger settlements cost land.

Plonking down migrants without capability of feeding them is entirely possible, but this lowers your law as more and more of them will be unable to feed themselves legally and thus will be doing anything from dodging taxes to outright theft.
>>
>>3105161
So long as you aren't going full Angela Merkel about it, they likely won't mind.

However if you start using their tax money to plonk down Mosques and refuse to protect their customary rights because you don't wish to agitate the migrants, you will risk antagonizing them instead.
>>
If we are going to get ourselves a super warship and blockade the ports of a free city, we should probably prepare for potential of assassination attempts before we actually do it.
>>
>>3105161

Theyll probably head north ones rumors of work come along
>>
I have a suggestion on piracy.


It is well known that the most proficient raiders in the west are the iron born so why dont we strike a deal with them to raid our closest competition
>>
>>3105772
You mean Manderlys? Why would we do that?
>>
>>3105790
yeah I mean the manderlyns,

Because we can spend virtually a fortune (since we dont know how much they could raid) protecting against pirates and raiders and if we are lucky they wont break through and destroy any progress we have made, we could instead just pay them off to go raid elsewhere making others poorer while we do our thing unmolested, it would give us some time to grow while making any possible future competitors slightly weaker.

Its not something we could overlook without giving it at least a secondthought
>>
>>3105804
Why the fuck would we raid the dude that's going to be helping us out for the foreseeable future, who would probably call for help from us, being that we'd have the biggest warship that he literally built for us. And if we didn't have it by then, he'd at least say hey, there's sightings of some ironborn coming our way you might wanna send your guys with the guns to help defend your ship.

And if we were found out by Stark, which we would be, we'd be hanged.

There is literally no reason for us to attack him and every reason not to.
>>
>>3105804
>>3105838
Yeah thats a pretty shit plan. Instead of making Manderly a trade partner and using the fact he can build our ships as an advantage to sell our cannons (which make the fast ships into fast and deadly ships), not to mention the fact that WH is a major consumer of our products once we start industry, you plan to ineffectually fuck with them and not only *increase* the amount of pirates in the bay but also risk getting Ned involved?

Come on man.
>>
>>3105838
>>3105862

Fair enough but whats the alternative? so we just deal deal with the pirates in straight up war hoping we get aid
>>
>>3105866
Let Stannis deal with them for now, make a deal with manderlys for temporary protection in case they come back.
>>
>>3105872

That was my plan in the first place, I wasent planning a proxy raid but if they arent raiding us they are obviously going to raid other lands more
>>
>>3105866
OP has said that Stannis isn't going anywhere for the foreseeable future as he wants to get rid of the pirates in the surrounding lands, I say we help him as much as possible. As for future pirates we'll have one fuckhueg ship and hopefully several others soon.
>>
>>3105886

Ok im satisfied it seems like we have a chance to grow for now
>>
>Thicc bois
>Compasses
>Speedy bois
>>
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The Raven had been sent.

You carefully sealed your documents inside a leather suitcase you had comissioned before you set sail to White Harbor. It was armed with combination lock in order to make sure people wouldn't just sneakily steal it's contents without looking.

The Documents on Compasses explained the concept of magnetic fields and planet's own magnetic poles (pictures included naturally) and how an iron heated to white heat and cooled lying along the meridian acquires magnetism.
The Concept as to why the Compasses function and how to manufacture them with as much mysticism dispelled as possible.

The Long Night's design documents were rather old, but also extensive, bearing inkmarks of Archmaester Ruger and several lesser maesters as they added their own notes on the construction of the vessel and it's workflow, giving some understanding on the methods used by Citadel's drydocks.

Then there's the Mano'war design, a fresher one, but one containing research data showing your findings on better optimized balance and stability with a less top heavy design and also displaying the method of optimizing wind surface area in comparison to the traditional carrack vessels, allowing for more cargo space and greater speed.
Along it were naturally included the workorder plans and designs made by you.

After making landfall, you headed straight to Merman's court where you were welcomed by Lord Manderly.
"You are starting to be a frequent visitor here Lord Arthur. Every time I hear of you, you seem to be traveling somewhere."
"Necessities of diplomacy I'm afraid. I sent a raven ahead of time."
"I received it. You made some vague mentions of a business proposal. Come, we will talk in my study."

The Sight of Manderly's book collection was becoming more familiar with every time you visited the man.
"So, did you change your mind about becoming my vassal? Or is this about something else?"

> What do you seek to gain from him?

> [Land] "I'd like your lands."
> [Ship Discount] "I've a ship to build and I'd like to haggle."
> [Free ship] "I'd like you to sponsor a project of mine."
> [Protection] "With my naval presence gone, I'd like to borrow some of yours for a bit."
> [Write-in]
>>
>>3105999

> [Land] "I'd like your lands."
> [Free ship] "I'd like you to sponsor a project of mine."
>>
>>3105999

> [Land] "I'd like your lands."
> [Free ship] "I'd like you to sponsor a project of mine.including manpower and their wages"
> [Ship Discount] "I've a ship to build and I'd like to haggle.
>>
>>3105999
> [Land] "I'd like your lands."
> [Ship Discount] "I've a ship to build and I'd like to give you first pick of all the new things I make for the next 2? years, as well as all this other cool stuff I brought"
>>
>[Land]
>[Free Ship]
>[Protection]
>[A 50% cut on sales of these ships and compasses]

Always open up with an outrageous demand when making a deal.
That way we can drop the [50% deal] and let him have a monopoly on these goods and he will feel happy about it, thinking he swindled us of the best part of the deal while we lost nothing we cared about to begin with.
>>
>>3105999

>>3106036
Maybe dont go so over the top, but yeah, open big, then whittle down.
>>
>>3106015
Supporting
>>
>>3106015

+1 from me
>>
>>3106015
Support
>>
>>3106015
How do you get a discount on something that's already free?
>>
>>3106125

Discount counts towards the man power needed to build the ship (living expenses, travel etc) since he is providing the initial manpower and they arent going to work for free the discount goes towards both the initial man power and any extra unforeseen expenses around the ship since it is a 2 year project.

Unless with "free ship" you meant he was going to pay for absolutely everything surrounding the cost of the ship including unforseen problems which would still be a good deal for us plus land.
>>
>>3106125
Try for free ship (since the economic gain for him, especially in the long run, is massive. If he doesnt bite, get a discount. Start big, basically.
>>
>>3106149

This basically, the cost of building a ship is going to be a lot but he is getting his moneys worth with what he is getting and giving
>>
>>3106133
Well yea, I mean that's pretty much what it meant.
I don't know why you would be negotiating with the guy actually building the ship on his own shipyard over living expenses, travel and the like of his own workers as you got no shipyards on your own lands.
>>
>>3105838
That's not true you wouldn't be hung he would cut your head off
>>
>>3106158
>Ned arrives to behead us
>"Ayy, Eddy my man, no hard feelings right? Maybe next life I'll bother to save your sister or something."
>>
>>3105999
> [Free ship] "I'd like you to sponsor a project of mine."
>>
>>3106015
>>3106156
Protection instead of the ship discount.
Stannis it's no going to be there forever and the ship will take a while to build
>>
>>3106223

the ship'ill be built on his land tho
>>
>>3105999
>> [Ship Discount] "I've a ship to build and I'd like to haggle."
> [Land] "I'd like your lands."
>>
>>3105999
> [Land] "I'd like your lands."
> [Ship Discount] "I've a ship to build and I'd like to haggle."
> [Protection] "With my naval presence gone, I'd like to borrow some of yours for a bit."


You were all fine paying full price for this thing, lets work to get a fair discount. As to the protection, no reason to not see if he can leave a few small ships to guard our land until the project is done. Lastly, we really need more lands and he was offering them.
>>
Also, given how valuable good designs are, we should probably take a month or two at some point designing ships for loads of circumstances.

We could also consider selling our "wave simulation" tank as a novelty / ship designing tool to someone. Lord knows it should interest someone.
>>
>>3105999
> [Free ship] "I'd like you to sponsor a project of mine."
>>
>>3105999
Supporting >>3106015 especially the haggling part. As for the others:

> [Land] "I'd like your lands."
We need more land to do stuff, especially our own coastline. So this should be a priority.
> [Free ship] "I'd like you to sponsor a project of mine.
Maybe not the whole cost as we have plenty of coin, in return for his subsidizing part of our ship I would offer knowledge on The Long Night's construction as well as anything else his shipwrights can learn from us. We could throw in compass tech too, but that may be better saved for later once they get used to having them and how useful they are.
> [Protection] "With my naval presence gone, I'd like to borrow some of yours for a bit."
Maybe not for protection as we are founding a unit of marines already. But we could definitely use a small ship for travel and other utility uses until our ship is done. Maybe offer to lease the ship in return for some light cannons (which would be built into the ship). It would also be difficult to train our marines without a ship.
>>
> [Land] "I'd like your lands."
> [Ship Discount] "I've a ship to build and I'd like to haggle."
> [Protection] "With my naval presence gone, I'd like to borrow some of yours for a bit."
>>
>>3105999
> [Ship Discount] "I've a ship to build and I'd like to haggle."
This is the most important, we need this ship as cheap as possible, but we don't want it to be "free" since that would just mean it is mostly his. If he pays for it entirely and doesn't just cut us a good deal, he will expect it to be mostly his.
> [Land] "I'd like your lands."
Sure why not
>>
I think I'm gonna need three different skill checks.
Persuasion, Cunning and Awareness

Let's start with the Cunning one.
4d6 please best out of three
>>
Rolled 3, 1, 2, 2 = 8 (4d6)

>>3108059
>>
Rolled 1, 6, 6, 5 = 18 (4d6)

>>3108059
>>
Rolled 3, 2, 6, 4 = 15 (4d6)

>>3108059
>>
Alright, next 3d6 for Persuasion and for Awareness
Bo3 for both of them.
>>
Rolled 3, 5, 4 = 12 (3d6)

>>3108068
>>
Rolled 5, 2, 1 = 8 (3d6)

>>3108068
>>
Rolled 5, 2, 6 = 13 (3d6)

>>3108068
>>
>>3108068
Persuasion
>>
Rolled 5, 6, 5 = 16 (3d6)

>>3108091
I fucked that up
>>
Rolled 2, 6, 3 = 11 (3d6)

>>3108068
Awareness
>>
Rolled 2, 2, 2 = 6 (3d6)

>>3108068
Persuasion
>>
Rolled 2, 4, 6 = 12 (3d6)

>>3108068
Awareness
>>
Rolled 3, 2, 3, 4, 1, 4, 4 = 21 (7d6)

>>
>>3108092
We're pretty damn persuasive, apparently.
>>
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>18 Cunning
>13 Persuasion
>16 Awareness

[1/3]

"I'm going to be frank with you here, the things I'd like to purchase from you are Land, Labor as well as borrowing some of your ships until I've some of my own."
"So you wish for my workers, my soldiers and my lands. I take it then you've either reconsidered my offer of vassalage or you're trying to pull something foolish and I think you are smarter than that."

You shake your head
"A Third option exists. One which may grant us both long term benefits. One which doesn't make you responsible for my eccentricities and me and my lands bound to your will."
You tap your suitcase
"Within this case I hold military secrets. You've seen the Long Night, one of the fastest, most stable courier vessels on the seas and certainly the top of her weight class, holding the record for the fastest cargo-run between Lannisport and Old Town as well as reputation as a capable Warhsip in the Greyjoy's rebellion. All the documentation relating to it's construction is in here. All the notes by the Archmaester Ruger and the lesser maesters that worked on it, the initial draft, service and repair records, all of it are contained here."

"Capable as the vessel might be, I wouldn't say that's enough for what you ask for. Many men desire lands and you are asking for my protection and citizens to work for you as well."

"Ah, but that is not all that is contained within this case. Inside is also revealed the manufacturing methods for compasses as well as the rough principle upon which they function and a short explanation on the natural forces they exploit in order to achieve this effect. Naturally, utilizing the properties of this magnetized iron and the attraction it possesses can result to other products than mere navigational tools. "

"A Trinket to smooth the deal is it?"
"A Highly Profitable trinket. The Cost of manufacture is indeed so low with this method that you might even consider me a swindler after I offered them as repayment for a favor. Use them or sell them, this industry is regardless useful for you since a merchant city's guilds need charters and being able to produce courier ships built for swiftness and stability in open oceans will open routes to you untraveled by pirates."

He sits back, mulling it over.
"Now, I could consider exchanging the lands for those the things you hold along with your personal instruction on getting those industries set up, but when it comes to ships and labor, you'd need to pay for them both all the same. It's not as if you're lacking in coin after being granted such a generous loan from Starks."

"Ah, but that is because I haven't yet told you what exactly it is that I wish to use your men for."
>>
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[2/3]

"You see, courier ships aren't the only vessels I think have need for improvement. In fact, I've recently tackled the issue of Cargo Vessels and I've designed a new class of ships. I call it the Man-of-War class vessels and by it's very construction, it is not only faster and more stable than the old lumbering Carracks, but also more cargo-efficient, far more durable and as a warship it would be far, far more powerful than any other vessel produced in the history of known world and likely beyond. A Prestigious project for sure."

"Prestigious. But then again Harrenhal is prestigious, but has bankrupted many a lords before it."

"If you aren't interested in having your shipyard be the one which completes this project and hold the lore of it's construction, then I suppose I can always ask the Citadel or Prince Stannis whether they'd be interested on the vessel. Besides, this project is a rather cost-efficient one for it's performance."
He sighs
"It'll be a ship no doubt relying on your guns, same as Long Night?"
"But of course! Not only are they the best suited weapons around for naval warfare, they are my bread and butter. Naturally I'd utilize what is available for me."
"And in so doing, you are seeking to guarantee that every one who wishes to buy these vessels from me and use them for war must acquire guns and powder from you."
"I don't see how that is a problem Lord Wyman. Sounds like a mutually beneficial agreement for us both."
"It would better if the guns were made in White Harbor by my smithies. I've greater capacity for their manufacture and more guns sold would mean more powder being sold for you."
"It would be great for you wouldn't it? Not so much for me. You import your metal all the same as other cities be it up the white knife, barrows, Dreadfort or other places. Therefore unlike with ship production, you cannot claim a great advantage in this area. I've Coal and Iron in my lands, both a foundation to build upon."
"I beg your pardon, but Fullaxe iron is known of the shite quality my lord."
"True, but it can be processed and made better. We've already begun to set up an industry to separate the unnecessary shit from the ore, which has granted us somewhat purer end product."
"So what is it exactly is it that you're suggesting here? That I build you a ship give you my lands in exchange for some papers?"

"What I am offering to you is a tremendous opportunity. You'd have two products with exclusive markets under control of White Harbor, a third one which has only been replicated so far in the Citadel. All of these products, already utilizing the pre-existing industry you possess and increasing the capacity for the economical growth of your region through not only increased efficiency of trade, but also increasing the range of it. I was a merchant myself for a time you know. I know exactly how much more profit an increase in both speed and cargo capacity offers."
>>
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[3/3]

"Now all I am asking in return is that you return to the lands which were dejure part of my domains before your campaign and that build me a but a single ship and maybe, just maybe have the good courtesy of asking but a few of your warships to look out for their good neighbor Arthur, who has so generously helped your domains to be more profitable."

He narrows his eyes and stands up from his ample chair to get a bottle of wine from the corner as the flames crackled in the fireplace and poured some into two cups before returning and putting one in front of you.
"Listen. I cannot possibly agree to what you are suggesting. Not without some assurances."
"Assurances you say?"
"There will be a written contract where the things you've promised will be recorded down and if you are in breach of the contract, we will take it to the Starks and they will punish you harshly for going against your word. The Terms will be roughly as follows."

>You, Lord Arthur Tallon will swear that neither you nor your children will breach the terms of this contract.
>You vow not to compete with White Harbor in ship or compass manufacturing nor will you sell the ship designs or compass manufacturing methods you've sold to others.
>You vow not to hold any written records of these manufacturing methods either.
>In exchange, House Manderly will lend House Tallon five war galleys and their crew until such a time when the following terms are fulfilled.
>House Manderly must provide a single ship of Lord Arthur's constructed by the manufacturing methods provided by House Tallon.
>House Manderly will grant Fullaxe lands in their possession to House Tallon as they were part of the original domain of the house Fullaxe whose seat he now controls.
>In the event Lord Tallon's ships do not perform as he promised, he is to face high justice in Winterfell and compensate for the damages."

>Are these terms acceptable?

>Y
>N
>>
>>3109898
Y
>>
>>3109898
>>You vow not to compete with White Harbor in ship or compass manufacturing nor will you sell the ship designs or compass manufacturing methods you've sold to others.
He means the ship classes that we specifically sold him, right? Not EVERY single ship ever.
Also are we selling him the Man-o'-War design as well?
>>
>>3109898
>Y

That's fine. If we needed more galleons we'd probably be going through White Harbor again anyway, compasses are not something we'd really want to try competing with White Harbor for since they have a far greater production capability than us. I'm gonna assume if we design a far better ship that building it for purely personal use and not selling any to other people doesn't count as competition. We still have monopoly on our main products, guns and powder, and with steam-powered industry we're going to have a lot more products available to us down the line.
>>
>>3109909
This, tell him that we won't build any LN or MoW, tell him thanks and skedaddle.
>>
>>3109898
>Yeah specify the types of ships and we have Y



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