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do hooks actually hurt the fish? is catch and release a meme
>>
>>1520456
Depends. Depends.
>>
>>1520456
Barbless circle hooks are the best for catch and release. They are easy to unhook and they almost always hook in the corner of the jaw where it will cause less damage and be easier for your to find and remove.
>>
the quick answer is, that i just dont care
>>
>>1520456
fish dont feel pain. it can hurt them in the sense that its harmful though. a hook in the gills will usually kill the fish
>>
>>1520508

>fish dont feel pain
this is bullshit. any animal that bleeds when you cut its skin sure as hell feels it. pain didn't evolve with human beings. why do people think pain evolved only with mammals?
>>
>>1520508
Please don't post when you don't know what you're talking about. Also kill yourself.
>>
>>1520582
He’s kinda right, they dont have much of a nervous system. It’s like eat, mate, and flee. The stress from them running on a line can hurt fish if they weren’t healthy to begin with.
>>
>>1520591
they can process something as complex as "flee" before something as simple as "ow"?
>>
>>1520567
>>1520582
Im not that guy, but fish literally do not have the nerve bundles to feel pain, you retards
>>
>>1520604
>Pain is a distressing feeling often caused by intense or damaging stimuli
Fuck you you dumb shit
>>
Any living animal that tends toward reproduction and survival is going to feel "pain"

Yes, a human suffering pain is going to be degrees more complex than a worm being cut in two, but ALL animals do avoid painful, unpleasant or dangerous circumstances

Step on a dog. Does it feel pain? Yes.
Step on a frog. Does it feel pain? Yes, but probably not as much as the dog? How could we know?
Step on a bug. (Assuming you haven't crushed it) Does it feel pain? Yes, but probably not as much as the frog.

>muh bundle of nerves
this is some boomer-tier redditor logic
>>
>>1520606
Do you at all understand biology or are you just pretending to not be retarded
Pain is a physiological response to stimuli in nerve bundles
>>
>>1520619
>Pain is a physiological response
>physiological
Says you. You added that. Literally no single authority has that definition of pain. I'm talking with a STEMfag retard here. Go read a book.
>>
>>1520617
If youre trolling it worked on me because your smug retardation is pissing me off
>>muh nerve bundles
Pain isnt some abstract concept for you to define you goddamn autists its a set in stone thing
>>
>>1520623
You're dumbassery is pissing me off. No, I'm not defining it. You're the one doing that. Pain is literally not a biological concept: you know why?

MEASURE IT
>>
>>1520623
You say I don't understand biology and that pain is a physiological concept. Let's take this "scientific" concept that's not "abstract" at all to a the ultimate empirical test. HOW DO YOU MEASURE PAIN?

How smartass? How the fuck do you measure pain? Using what metric?
>>
*your
>>
HOW DO YOU MEASURE PAIN SMARTASS? HOW THE FUCK DO YOU EVEN DETECT IT? FUCKING DOCTORS WHO WORK THEIR WHOLE LIVES AROUND PAIN AND SUFFERING AND DEATH, HAVE LITTLE IDEA HOW TO BEGIN TO DEFINE PAIN. PEOPLE HAVE WRITTEN HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PAGES OF BOOKS ON THIS TOPIC. AND YOU THINK YOU KNOW WHAT PAIN IS? YOU THINK YOU UNDERSTAND PAIN? YOU CAN TALK FOR ALL THE SUFFERING CREATURES? AND I'M THE SMUG RETARD?

HOW DO YOU MEASURE PAIN??? IN LITERS? HOW DO YOU MEASURE IT? ARE YOU A BRAIN SCIENTIST?

HOW DO YOU MEASURE PAIN?
>>
>>1520629
>>1520627
>How do you measure pain
Number of nerves stimulated and intensity of that stimulation
>Caveat that this stimuli must take place in the body of a living being
Easy if you arent retarded
>>
>>1520637
IN WHAT? CUBIC CENTIMETERS? LITERS? POUNDS PER SQUARE INCH?

you fucking brainlet fuck
>>
>>1520643
A unit of pain is called a 'dol' from latin dolor (pain)
No its not liters you dumbass, nice strawman though
>>
>>1520637
>Number of nerves stimulated and intensity of that stimulation
That's not determined to be a consistently reliable measurement of pain
>>1520645
>dol
I wonder why it's almost NEVER used? Wouldn't it have a practical application since hospitals are always full?
>>
>>1520647
>Wouldn't it have a practical application since hospitals are always full?
No. Doctors just need a vague idea of the pain youre feeling. Whats much more important is, ya know, symptoms.
Does your car's fuel meter tell you how many mL of gas you have? No it just tells you roughly how full or empty it is.
>>
>>1520649
Just one final note about the dol measurement: after it was invented by a few autistic scientists, no one has used it since for practical or any purpose. It's an arbitrary test looking at a few points. Dol is to pain as IQ is to intelligence: it does not encompass the thing exactly.
>>
>>1520653
>Not practical
Listen fuckface I never said it was practical. Some retard, potentially (you) said there was no measurent for pain and I proved him wrong.
>arbitrary test
Not at all. Its unreliable because of unreliable narrators (people being measured for pain). Doesnt mean it isnt at the root of the source of pain.
>>
>>1520657
There is still no measurement for pain. dol proves nothing.
Or do you think IQ is a measure of intelligence too, you rat fuck autist?
>>
>>1520661
I stand by my statement that fish dont feel pain.
Go fuck yourself.
>>
>>1520663
>>1520664
>>1520668
>fish don't feel pain
Because of you I'm going to bully the next STEM nerd that comes in my path.You are fucking stupid as fuck and hopeless as fuck, you brainless retard. Hope you get hit by a bus.
>>
>>1520669
Stupid nigger
>>
>>1520637
Uh, are you from r*ddit?
>>
>>1520670
Stupid nigger
>>
>>1520669
>Im gonna bully the next stem nerd that comes in my path
How, by holding him down and sucking his cock? You must have meant mouth when you said path I guess
>>
>>1520671
Yes he is. I have never seen a dumber person in the universe
>>
>durr u can't measure pain
>but fish feel a certain amount of this immeasurable thing
Stupid nigger
>>
>>1520681
Only other non-retard in the past 20 posts
>>
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>durr u can measure anything you can have a word for
>but if u cant measure it it must not exist
>i have never had sex because im virgin
>>
>I have zero understanding of what pain even is
>Therefore fish MUST feel it
>>
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>I DON'T UNDERSTAND LOGIC SO I'LL BEG THE QUESTION

>ANYTHING NAMEABLE IS ALSO MEASURABLE

>I'M SMARTER THAN YOU BECAUSE I WATCH VSAUCE

>I UNDERSTAND CONCEPTS EVEN THOUGH I'M DUMB AS HELL
>>
>>1520689
Why are you pushing this stem thing you anti-intellectual retard it doesnt take a college bio major to understand basic level biology
>>
>>1520688
I'll knock your skull so that you'll understand pain
>>
>>1520691
stem is the epitome of anti-intellectual you uncultured uneducated booklet retard
>>
>>1520694
Straw man straw man straw man
>Straw man
You retard stop building up a strawman
Youre the only one itt talking about "hurr durr stem"
Also
>Stem is anti-intellectual
Nigger fucking what
>>
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>>1520699
You are so dumb you have no idea how dumb you are

Please, for the sake of the species don't talk about anything ever again
>>
>>1520701
I'm not in college you dunce im a grown ass adult
The only proof that fish feel pain would be that it turns out youre a fish.
Because youre butthurt as all fuck
>>
>>1520703
there's just something unlikeable about dumb boomer mentality
>>
>>1520706
>Born in the 90s
Good try though ya butthurt nigger
>>
>>1520710
me too, born in 92, try not to be so dumb next time, nigger
>>
>>1520701
I dislike STEMcels too, but you seem to just be shoehorning this in
>>
Holy shit people itt are passionate about whether fish feel pain lmao
>>
>>1520732
the way he insisted that pain is "basic biology" really ticked me off
>>
>>1520732
anyway I should not have lost my temper. I'm out. peace
>>
>>1520456
epic bait, friend. 10/10
+1 (you)
>>
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Fish don't feel pain.
>>
>>1520508
>A hook in the gills

wut
>>
The worst part of these threads is that everyone seems to lump all fish in the same group.

I could easily see a Blue cat feeling pain as they have very fleshy mouths but at the same time a Largemouths mouth isn't fleshly at all and naturally takes damage when eating bluegill or crayfish in similar fashion to what a hook would cause.
>>
>>1520823

When you intentionally or not, accidents happen, drag your lure or whatever into the gills of a fish and reel them in. It does some nasty damage.
>>
>>1520604
They absolutely do and respond to painful stimuli. me: biologist.
you: dumb fuck
>>
>>1520828
that doesn't happen in the real world
>>
>>1520823
bleeds them out. their gills are full of capillaries and they bleed to death quickly
>>1520832
it happened to me yesterday on a chain pickerel you brainless twit. I tried to save it but I treble hooked it in the gills with a squarebill, couldn't even get it out, it was fucking sideways in its throat. ended up taking it home and frying it. tasted good.
>>
>>1520832
also people foul hook fish all the time, ad gill plates are nice little nooks for hooks to hang up in.
>>
>>1520830
I read somewhere that they do have pain receptors and feel pain, but it doesn't register the same way as it does in higher vertebrates. this is especially true in sharks.

I'm not saying you're wrong; I'm saying there's a middle ground between you and the poster you're replying to, and that sticking to absolutions that are VERY difficult to measure is at the least, unwise. their nerves are more spread out than ours AFAIK so they feel pain, but less intensely, and they're less likely to feel pain from a hook because of the lower nerve density.

think of the human back: there are fewer nerves in your back and they're more spread out, so people can do crazy stunts like put hooks through themselves but being whipped or slapped still hurts. same with the skin on your elbows.

and, yes, fish show the capacity for situational learning, but not the capacity for reasoning. their cerebrum is flat and tiny. they react, but they don't think.

I still believe in respecting fish, and try not to subject them to undue stress and handle them as gently as possible until I release or kill them, but I wouldn't describe them as salient. more like, barely conscious.
>>
>>1520927
not the biologist anon, but I agree with that post. The first pro-"fish don't feel pain" were utter brainlets. I'm the one who claimed that more complex species (human) probably feel pain more acutely than less complex ones (worm). Fish are definitely not sentient.
>>
>>1520649
level of pain is a symptom. If dol was such a real indicator of pain it would be used. No one has ever used dol the way they use fahrenheit/centigrade/kilometers. It's as meaningless as IQ as a measure of intelligence. Or perhaps you think you can measure "love" as well by measuring the dopamine/oxytocin or chemicals or whatever
>>
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>>1520681
>>1520682
>>
>>1520827
The worst part about these threads is that everyone understands that pain is felt by humans.

Most understand that pain is felt by mammals.

A few can imagine how reptiles/amphibians etc. can feel pain.

The lower down the hierarchy you go and the less human-like and mammal-like the organism, the brainlets lose all comprehension. How would these organisms even evolved to avoid unhealthy or dangerous situations?

Good, beneficial: "pleasure"
Distress, detrimental: "pain"
>>
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>i catched and released this fish, i am such a good person!!
>goes home to eat a huge steak and burger
Face it. People who do catch and release intentionally (one thing is releasing unwanted endangered catch) are huge fucking faggots
>>
>>1520963
I like catching bass but I dont like eating it.
>>
>>1520965
Then youre a literal faggot. Real men eat their catch
>>
When a person drowns, is it painful? When a fish is gasping for breath, is the fish experiencing any pain?

I feel like nerves just make the sensing of pain more "high def".

For example. All living things, even those without eyes, can detect light. Having a special organ called eyes just make seeing light more defined. All living things are affected by sound as well. Some have ears, but even those with ears are not as good at hearing sounds as others with highly developed ears. Nerves are like wires that make sensation sharper. I claim that any animal while being eaten alive / ripped apart / being punched around sure as hell is feeling pain

https://www.google.com/search?q=switzerland+bans+boiling+lobsters

http://jeb.biologists.org/content/216/3/353.full
>>
>>1520965
basedboy

bet you smoke e-cigs too and drink decaf
>>
>>1520966
I eat walleye, because it's good. Bass here has a lot of worms. Guess i'm not a "real man" according to some faggot on 4chan.
>>
>>1520938
thanks. I forget when I read the article, like 20 years ago. Neuroscience has progressed by leaps and bounds since then, and they might even have MRI's of fish under stress. I know pain is felt over the whole of the brain

>>1520950
yes but it's all gradients, there's no "does" or "doesn't," each organism is different. reptiles for example have a more developed brain than amphibians, which in turn are more neurologically developed than the lobe finned fishes, and so on.

>>1520963
>People who do catch and release intentionally... ...are huge fucking faggots

what if we have enough food and don't want to waste it? fish doesn't keep well and is much lower quality when frozen. are you suggesting we just kill them and throw them away if we aren't hungry enough to eat them, already have plenty of fish to eat, if they're a trash fish or too small?

I enjoy the act of fishing, and keep fish all the time, but I'm not going to arbitrarily kill whatever I hook because I don't want your gloriousness to think I'm "a huge fucking faggot"

now you listen here you stupid sack of shit: there is nothing wrong with not killing something you don't intend to eat. you are easily the most retarded asshole in this thread, and you really need to sit back and consider what a motherfucking shitty asshole of a person you are. you suck. now shut your mouth you worthless peabrained turd of a human being.
>>
>>1520966
>>1520968
what if he just doesn't like the taste? I don't eat tilapia, because I hate the taste.

you know what he doesn't do? judge people based on what their taste in food is. like you. only really shitty people do that.
>>
>>1520971
I'm not sure if they're trolling or are legitimately that stupid. it's probably best you ignore them.
>>
>>1520972
>pain is felt over the whole of the brain
It's a lot more complex than some anons are making it out to be. There are different experiences of pain. Small piece of flesh being ripped off is different from swimming into an unhealthy temperature of water. If you boil a fish alive it's gonna show that it's feelin it
>>
>>1520977
yup. I know in humans emotional pain shows up on MRI's as physical pain according to some article in nature a few years ago, also, so in humans, it would seem pain is pain.
>>
>>1520975
Fishing for pure entertainment seems really shitty to me. Like just kill and eat it, you made it go through a death scare already
>>1520976
You're not sure because you're stupid as fuck.
>>
what in the unholy fuck is this thread

the sheer amount of virginity and larp is unbelievable
>>
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>what in the unholy fuck is this thread
>the sheer amount of virginity and larp is unbelievable
>>
>>1520978
>pain is pain
nah bro they're just larping
>>
>>1520982
It's funny that you assume I'm mocking your stance specifically when I haven't even remotely indicated what my own beliefs are or who I'm calling larping virgins.
>>
>>1520985
there's been too much mud flung since the first 'retard' was thrown
>>
>>1520963
>t. third worlder
not everyone has to keep every single fish they catch in order to live another week you absolute fucking moron

if fish felt pain in their mouths, or even had brain capacity to remember said pain, they would all stop eating other fish. guarantee every fish that eats other fish has gotten stuck with fin bones in their mouth before. must have been so traumatizing for them to finish eating
>>
yes, fish can feel pain, or at the very least, suffer. anyone who says otherwise is attempting to rid themselves of the guilt that they subconsciously feel when fishing.

friendly reminder that veganism is the only ethical option; catch and release finishing is extremely cruel and unnecessary, and so is eating meat
>>
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Catch and release is ridiculous. Imagine hunting with one of those suction cup bow and arrows.
>>
>>1521282
I'll hook an extra minnow tomorrow because of how retarded you are.
>>1521309
tripfag, filename "image.reddit.jpg"

Opinion discarded.
>>
>>1521343
I'll send out some energy for you to get hit by a bus
>>
>>1521023
let me anesthetize your mouth and start applying hooks to it you brainless tard.
>>
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fuckin tard. don't let me see you out in the wild
>>
>>1521365
I don't live near any buses faggot
>>
>>1521343
thanks for showcasing my point by exhibiting the typical response; emotionally lashing out like a big mad baby instead of logically considering the position you hold. I've been there too. Look into your position, really look into it. you might learn something.
>>
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>>1520669
>>
If catch and release causes suffering what other options are there for being fishing are there. Or what can I do to make catch and release as easy on the fish as possible...
Interested in starting fishin but would kind of feel like a dick if they truly do have the capacity to suffer
>>
>>1521542
Some species are minimally effected by catch and release. At least by hooksets. Nothing can stop a retard from improperly handling a fish.
>>
>>1521542
use the appropriately sized hook, if they're gut hooked, just cut the line (they'll spit the hook after about two weeks, only like 17% will die from it) kill them immediately if you're going to keep them, and for the love of god don't squeeze them too hard. little fish get accidentally squeezed to death all the time. I've squeezed them hard enough to make their swim bladders squeak by accident if they're super slippery while trying to unhook them and it makes me feel bad each time. some species you can't lip, like minnows (chubs, carp, shiners, etc) but with the perciformes lip them if they're big enough so you don't squish their organs.

keep some sprite or seven up on hand to stop bleeding if they're bleeding really badly. I shake all the CO2 out of the bottle before hand so it doesn't get absorbed by the gills.

>>1521420
it's called foul hooking, a fairly common method of getting bait fish. now, targeting the gills is impossible, but gills make excellent places for hooks to latch on to, so often they're foul hooked in the gills or gill plate area.
>>
>>1521555
this too. bass recover very well from being caught, even mangled or maimed, by hooks.
>>
>>1521542
if you're up for a challenge you can try barbless hooks, too. replace any treble hooks on hard lures with barbless inline hooks. also, circle hooks tend not to gut hook fish.
also, never lip a salmonid, like trout or charr.
>>
>>1520975
You can just give me all the tilapia thank you
>>
>>1520950
Yeah this is pretty much it, I don’t think it’s a matter of debate at this point.
>>
>>1520673
top kek
>>
>>1520617
>>muh bundle of nerves
>this is some boomer-tier redditor logic

>science of how nerves and nervous system works is boomer tier redditor logic
youre such a fucking idiot.

all the morons in this thread need to get off their high horses and quit arguing from the point of "they live, therefore they must suffer if i do something" its not based in reality, and proves youre too stupid to know what youre talking about before pressing post.
>>
>>1520636
ALL CAPS. I DONT UNDERSTAND THINGS. THERFORE YOU DONT UNDERSTAND THINGS EITHER. IT FEELS PAIN BECAUSE I LIKE ANTHROPOMORPHISING ANIMALS. ALL CAPS.
>>
>>1520967
>I feel like nerves just make the sensing of pain more "high def".
nobody gives a fuck what you feel.
your "feelings" are incorrect.
>>
How the fuck do you even use dol to test if an organism feels pain? Just asking
>>
>>1521707
>>1521709
>>1521712
>muh feelings
You lost the intellectual argument and you still think you're the right one.

>anthromorphising
strawman. You completely lack understanding. Please kill yourself
>>
inb4 this is what the tard thinks a smart intellectual is

Fucking brainlet. Just admit you're dumb as fuck. Everyone else understands the argument. They're on the same page except for you
>>
>>1521707
>>1521709
>>1521712
just go back to red dit dumbass. the quality of this site is a lot better without you
>>
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>>1521712
It's an expression dumbass. "I feel like" and "I think like" is exactly the same. For example when you think like you're smart or feel like you're smart, are exactly the same.

je crois que = je pense que
>>
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>>1521712
>>1521746
feeling and thinking are exactly the same. thinking is different from logical analysis. since you're using everyday language right now you're not fucking using logical analysis, it's only applicable in very narrow conditions which basically means it's useless outside of operations (mathematics, computer science)

tl;dr you're using "feelings" right now to argue that fish don't feel pain.

Senti = to feel
sentience = intelligence, thinking
>>
>>1521369
>people and fish feel pain the same way
yet im the brainless tard. holy fuck consider suicide you dumb nigger
>>
>>1521743
Ben Shapiro GUT HOOKS liberal SJW smallmouth bass with FACTS and LOGIC.
>>
you faggots want to know how i know fish could give two shits about a hook in their lip? i have an aquarium with a perch, bluegill, bass and crappie in it. i've caught all of them on hook before. some will bite the lure again immediately after being caught and put back into the aquarium. they also will eat regular food (minnows) after being caught.

please, by all means keep spouting nonsense about how fish are so traumatized by a hook being in their mouth though. maybe there will be less of you faggots out on the water
>>
>>1521790
their brains are too small to understand that hook =/= food. some animals will try to eat /bite/swallow things that aren't food. I've fed rocks to pigs before when I was a child. pig kept eating the rocks and wouldn't stop as long as I kept giving them. could have killed that pig or made it sick
>>
>>1521557
>if they're gut hooked, just cut the line (they'll spit the hook after about two weeks, only like 17% will die from it
Even when using barbed hooks?
>>
>>1520456
Fish lack the brain power to properly feel pain.
>>
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>>1520823
when that does happen pour a coke or any fizzy pop down its throat and the bleeding stops.

have done it many times
>>
>>1522365
Bullshit. Pain is pretty base. They're not conscious though.
>>
>>1522365
fish feel pleasure to fuck, eat
they feel pain too. it's simple evolution
their brains are just smaller so our pain is different
>>
>>1522372
didn't know that
>>
>>1522573
>fish feel pleasure to fuck, eat
>proving your basless claim something feels pain the way humans do, by baselessly claiming they feel sexual pleasure or have hunger more than a constant natural drive to ingest everything they can.
you just claimed fish fuck for pleasure. lol

>>1521748
>>1521746
>I feel = I think, because some "philosopher" sat around all day and dreamed it up to be truth
good lord.
>At 25 years of age, Hume, although of noble ancestry, had no source of income and no learned profession.
Q
U
A
L
I
T
Y
>>
>>1520602
>pain
>simple
>>
We don't feel pain
T. Fish
>>
>>1522645
they don't fuck for pleasure. they fuck because it's pleasurable

>>1522665
why did you delete your previous comments?
>>
>>1522645
the drive is the pain/pleasure drive. did you go to school?

you claim they don't have a nervous system. all animals with a brain literally have nerve cells
>>
>>1520623
>>1522669
You're arguing from emotion

Rational discussion has been given from the pro-catch-and-release side, ( >>1520978 >>1520972 >>1520927 ) but not from you
>>
>>1522645
>good lord
sentience and sentiment come from the same root word
>>
>>1522675
>baselessly claim fish sex drive is based on pleasure and not instinct
>falsely claim i stated fish have no nervous system.
you need specialized nerves to twitch muscles to swim. you also need different specialized nerves created to interpret certain external stimuli in a certain fasion. this can be what we describe as pleasure, or pain, and its pretty complicated shit. way too complicated for a fish to need to evolve to survive. what purpose would it serve? the fish can do nothing but eat or flee. that is all it needs to know or understand about bad things. did you go to school?

>>1522681
>sentience and sentiment come from the same root word
so? just because things are related doesn't make them the same thing. i still reject the idea of equating unconscious, (mostly) uncontrollable feelings with conscious thoughts and musings. one is your bodies automated reaction to external stimuli, the other is creatively focusing brain power
>>
>>1522704
fair enough. my aim is not to convert you, I've said my piece and anyone who reads are free to choose what they think.
>>
>>1522674
I didn't that was my first post.
>>
>>1522679
no Im a fish, we don't have emotion
>>
>>1522732
>he actually literally thinks fish have emotions
holy top fucking kek.
god damn i hate stupid people.
A N T H R O P O M O R P H I S I N G
learn what that is and fucking stop. mammals are incredibly more complex than other classes of animals.
>>
>>1522736
I don't feel any sort of way about this post. Because, again, I am just a fish
>>
>>1522732
>>1522736
you're just trolling each other, chill out
>>
>>1522738
but its too shitty outside to go fishing =(
>>
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>>1522738
I'm plenty chill
>>
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Fish Dont Feel Pain
>>
>>1522745
Imagine the smell
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>>1522736
>birds aren't equally or more complex and developed than most mammals
Retard detected, I hope a magpie pecks your eye out
It would probably be smarter than you.
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>>1522746
imagine holding your breath and getting picked up by your lower jaw.
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>>1520456

Yes & yes although I can understand catch-&-release from a commercial standpoint.
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>>1522826
Fish that big you really should hold with two hands, but smaller bass are unaffected by this.
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>>1522826
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>>1522826
theyre probably dead retard
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>>1521746
>>1521748
Based and Humepilled
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>>1523070
they were released you intelligent dark boy.
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>>1522674
>fish fuck
lmao
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>>1523249
do they have asexual reproduction? you're looking to find something wrong. whether or not they jizz on eggs outside, they have sex. ok? that good enough for you? they have sexual reproduction
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>>1523249
Dude I watch these bass fuck for like 30 minutes. They were like floating and swimming in tight circles. They ignore all my lures. Even hit them a couple times with my lures too
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>>1520604
>>1520619

>fIsH dO nOt hAVe nUrVs

>>1520637
Not true, your finger tips are the most densely innervated part of the body, while the penis is one of the least, yet I bet you would rather have your finger tip cut than your dick. The type of nerve (i.e., C fiber versus B versus A) and the way it is processed by the brain determine the subjective experience of the pain (e.g., anterior cingulate and insular processing has a stronger affective component, whereas somatosensory processing is more pure sensation without pain). Fish do feel pain.

t. Anon with actual education
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>>1523070
This comment really shows the low intellect of the people arguing about this.
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>>1523722
Catfish fish have a bunch of nerves around their mouth so that much mean they feel pain and they are totally not used for sensing crawfish or baitfish.
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>>1521914
yep.
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>>1523725
it's deleted now but there were people from the other side whose posts were literally just "stupid nigger". You're cherry-picking the worst shitpost from some anon
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>>1523727
Okay here is a non-catfish.

inb4
>fIsH hAvE dA nUrVs fEr fEeling eVerYtInG bUt pAiN
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>>1523741
Forgot image.
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>>1523727
At least we established they have a nervous system now, change from earlier in the thread
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>>1523744
Who is we? That was my first post of the thread.
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>>1523741
>>fIsH hAvE dA nUrVs fEr fEeling eVerYtInG bUt pAiN
it's crazy that they would grant nerves for eyesight but not for a pain reflex

If you boil a fish alive, the reaction that you see is called pain

>>1523745
we meaning the general public discussion
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>>1520456
yes it hurts them. also the stress level is way too high. the fishs get traumatized.
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>>1523751
>it hurts them
yes
>the stress level is way too high
yes, struggling for life/breath
>traumatized
no (strawman)
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>>1520975
this will sound weird to a brainlet but by eating it you're respecting the prey - of course you might not give a fuck and thats entirely on you
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>>1521374
what a champ
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>>1520830
>me: biologist
GB2R
also fish don't feel pain, they just react to nerve stimuli
>t. wildlife biologist
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>>1520636
You can scale the pain.
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bumping the greatest bait thread I have seen on this board this year
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>>1523727
keep in mind different cutaneous nerves do different things in fish:
>touch
>temperature
>pressure and acceleration
>photoreception in rare cases
>electrosensation
>taste/smell
just because there's nerves somewhere doesn't mean their job is to detect pain. your back has a good sense of pressure and acceleration but poor temperature and pain reception.
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>>1524918
Nah the greatest bait thread is the tent color thread
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>>1520830
>biologist
No biologist would say an animal 'absolutely' experiences anything. Nor would they conflate [averse response to damage] with [experience of pain]. Do you believe a twitching roach you stepped on is experiencing agony? Don't lie on the internet, or at least keep it on plebbit

>>1523817
Oh ok somebody already said it, >>1520830 still a massive faggot tho so i'll post anyway
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>>1524996
>don't lie on 4chan
can you hear yourself?
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Fish dont feel much pain.
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Fish feel pain, but I don't care.
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>>1520567
Pain, as you and I understand it, is tied (necessarily) to a sense of existential fear related to death and it's associated state of non-being. Pain =/= hurt.
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>>1520456
>catch and release

C&R has nothing to do with whether a fish feels pain. Its about maintaining a sustainable population of fish so you can catch some the next time. Barbless hooks just make it a tad harder.
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>>1525398
Pain =/= hurt =/= ache
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>>1520983
Pain unironically is a form of evolutionary roleplaying
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>>1525468
So is love desu
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>>1525484
Love might be continuous with evolutionary development but it is transcendent rather than immanent. Some animals feel pain like humans do, but no animal feels love in any meaningful sense of the word.
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>>1520456
no they don't have thoughts and stuff just like all other animals, only humans feel pain
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>>1526151
how do you know for sure
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>>1527230
>>1527255
Let it go sister

>>1526151
>it is transcendent rather than immanent
Yes. Animals don't feel romantic love or higher types of love, but they surely feel companionship like with dogs and friendship between animals
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>>1520456
Small brains, receptors that dont connect to every part of the fish, they can feel some forms of pressure against their body to know if they are under threat, but not the same kind of pain we experience.
Its why we can hold many fish in certain ways and they often dont struggle, because they dont feel anything causing them stress atm.
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>>1527502
They feel pleasure in eating, they feel pain too. Animals follow their instinct based on pain-pleasure urges
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Of course they do, not so sure that being hooked is as painful to them as it would be to us though, given their mouths are generally much heavier, evolved for rougher and less delicate use than the human mouth. Somewhat like a dog in the sense that they will readily hang on to things with their feet off the ground when playing, for us maybe it'd be roughly comparable to being yanked about by the legs. The piercing of the flesh itself by the hook cant be very pleasant though, though again maybe less so than it would be for us given that a lot of fish evolved eating things that are spiky or whatever, crabs, other fish with spines etc.

tl;dr - seems likely, though not to the same extent as we would feel it.
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>>1520636
Here you go. Happy to be of service!
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>>1521542
Whenever you handle a fish you've landed make sure your hands are wet so you dont take the protective slime layer off the fish
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if you use the right lures the fish doesnt feel pain at all.
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>first time on /out/ looking for a fishing thread
Is this normal?
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>>1529063
This your first time on 4chan, too?
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>>1529063
Use the regular fishing and tackle thread, ignore the shitposting and flaming
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first time on /out/

>fish dont feel
>post a fucking rod through their skull
>post is followed by a serious reply.
>repeat
i don't even know if you faggots are serious or not
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>>1520567
They respond to stimuli but do not have the capacity of emotion that gives humans understanding of pain.
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>>1520827
tfw badly mangled a bullhead cuz my friend left the pond first and took my pliers by mistake; and i noticed i jacked his mouth up pretty bad by accident.
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>>1530640
dont worry about it, it'll live.
I caught these guys and they were fine
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>>1520604
ask me how I know you've never unhooked a fish that's swallowed the lure
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>>1530388
>i don't even know if you faggots are serious or not
you must be new to this entire site
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>>1520582
>>1520567
Nociception isn't pain dumbasses.
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>>1520617
People also refer to the clitoris as the “bundle of nerves” in my lesbian fanfiction. So obviously this guy is a queer.
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>>1528825
>>1530663
>>1532172
>>1532175
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>>1532172
>hurt isn't pain
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>>1532184
>nociception is "hurt"
Stop using vague terms to discuss a subject you don't understand. The common biological consensus is that fish reflexively respond to nociception sensations which is not even close to human pain.
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>>1532187
>pain reception doesn't mean pain
You daft motherfucker. Also I never claimed it's close to human pain. Common consensus doesn't mean shit
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>>1530663
Look at that flat fuck on the right. Looks like the founder from spongebob squarepants..
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>>1530663
>>1532194
the Mexican looks like he eats too much McDonald's
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>>1532187
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2964977/

Nociceptors: the sensors of the pain pathway

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/neuroscience/nociception

Nociception is the detection of painful stimuli

https://nba.uth.tmc.edu/neuroscience/m/s2/chapter06.html

Pain is termed nociceptive (nocer – to injure or to hurt in Latin), and nociceptive means sensitive to noxious stimuli. Noxious stimuli are stimuli that elicit tissue ...

https://www.tocris.com/research-area/nociception

Nociception. Nociception is the sensory process that provides the signals that lead to pain. This occurs through nociceptors, primary sensory neurons that are ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nociception

from Latin nocere 'to harm or hurt') is the sensory nervous system's response to certain harmful or potentially harmful stimuli. In nociception, intense chemical (e.g., chili powder in the eyes), mechanical (e.g., cutting, crushing), or thermal (heat and cold) stimulation of sensory nerve cells called nociceptors produces a signal that travels along a chain of nerve fibers via the spinal cord to the brain.[1] Nociception triggers a variety of physiological and behavioral responses and usually results in a subjective experience of pain in sentient beings.[2]


Got anymore bullshit, retard?
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>>1532187
>common biological consensus
pop-scientific buzzwords again. Got any source for this, other than your ass?
>>
I don't care about pain, but I keep some of my fish and they heal just fine.
I have had one flathead kotfish for 12 years now in a pond I caught on a treble, and other small ones from microfishing in an aquarium, mainly rainbow darters, all caught by hooks. Cant remember ever losing a fish I kept. Of ones I threw back I have had some big largemouth bass completely swallow the hook/bait while fishing for other things, I released and I expect died a slow gut punctured death, but that is a rare occasion.
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>>1520567
So you dont mind if I kick you in the balls because its not lethal, right? Spread your legs then, bitch!
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>>1520927
>I read somewhere
you cant make this shit up
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>>1521707
god fucking damn it, how can someone be this stupid? if an animal reacts to stimuli, it sure is capable of feeling "pain" right? I mean pain as we know it is just a reaction to harm acted on your body. The way you react to this is of course will somewhat depend on the level of your consciousness.
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>>1520701
Hahahaha cope: the post. I bet you think analytical philosophy is superior to continental and ancap is not a meme too.
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>>1520966
>real men
why tf are you this insecure anon? Copeposting like this the opposite of "manliness". Do you have a small penis or something?
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>>1521712
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The level of pseudo-intellectual bullshit spewing on this board is fucking insane. Go back to /tv/ and /lit/ you unsuffarable faglords, just because you read Hume and Schopenhauer once doesnt mean you are hot shit.
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>>1532252
>fuck reading
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>>1532262
>I bet you think analytical philosophy is superior to continental
other way around

>>1532267
>>1532270
>t. retard
Do dogs feel pain? Do amphibians feel pain? Show me where in this chart pain ends or where it begins
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>>1532251
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Holy shit the number of retards who believe pain began with human beings. Do you think the Earth is 6000 years old too?
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>>1532434
By that same logic bacteria and protozoa feel pain you fucking retard.
>B-b-but everything thats alive had the same properties that I do!
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>>1532459
Nice strawman x1000 retard. Now tell me where pain-sensation ends or begins
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>hurr you piss me off you stupid nigger!
>yet facts are better than feelings, Ben rat Jewpiro told me so!
>oh yeah btw these facts came outta my ass..
>you refute Jewpiro with Hume? hmm fuck reading! pretentious cunt
>I will spell insufferable as unsuffarable because I am so angry that my presumptions are being challenged, yet FACTS are still better than FEELINGS!
>also I have no scientific education beyond grade 11 yet I will use my pseudo-pop-scientific assumptions and call it LOGIC! it's basic BIOLOGY XD
>bacteria don't feel pain, that mean frogs don't feel pain too!
>(fill in strawman here)
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>>1532463
>>1532434
when it "ends"? It "ends" when a certain creature stops responding to stimuli. To be more specific, if you cause harm to a creature and you cant see it respond, its safe to believe that it does not feel pain. Its that fucking simple. But please mr. freshman humanityfag, share us your definition of "pain" because we clearly disagree on the definition.
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>>1532550
>share us
share with us
god fucking damn it im tired
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This entire thread is just squabbling over the definition of pain, without actually addressing that core disagreement. Stop talking past eachother you queers.
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>>1532550
Read the thread, I was the first one to put up a definition
>Pain is a distressing feeling often caused by intense or damaging stimuli >>1520606

when it "ends" meaning at what organism. You believe humans feel pain, but not bacteria. Apes and dogs yes; plants and fungi no. Keep going, at which point of organization does pain begin
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>>1532564
>distressing feeling
way to be vague. you cant really be "distressed" without having a certain level of conscience. i would argue that dogs/apes/fucking fish have a level conscience or whatever. So its not a binary state, its gradual. Im also open to the idea that higher-than-human levels of conscience can exists. As a consequence, the higher level of your conscience is, the more pain you're able to experience.
I dont even really care about this argument, i have no idea why i keep coming back to this derailed stupid fucking thread. The whole argument comes down to what you are willing to accept as a conscious being and that is a pretty hard problem of moral philosophy. Discussing this here only results in the oversimplification of the subject and a smug freshman who feels good about winning an online argument(that would be (You))
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>>1522372
It'll stop the bleeding but they still die
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>>1533081
how do you know?
they swim off fine afterwards...
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>>1533157
Getting toxic ink on your fish
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>>1524996
More recent studies suggest that fish experience pain in much the same way that mammals do, and respond to the same painkillers as we. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/fish-feel-pain-180967764/

>Several years ago, Lynne Sneddon, a University of Liverpool biologist and one of the world’s foremost experts on fish pain, began conducting a set of particularly intriguing experiments; so far, only some of the results have been published. In one test, she gave zebrafish the choice between two aquariums: one completely barren, the other containing gravel, a plant, and a view of other fish. They consistently preferred to spend time in the livelier, decorated chamber. When some fish were injected with acid, however, and the bleak aquarium was flooded with pain-numbing lidocaine, they switched their preference, abandoning the enriched tank. Sneddon repeated this study with one change: rather than suffusing the boring aquarium with painkiller, she injected it straight into the fish’s bodies, so they could take it with them wherever they swam. The fish remained among the gravel and greenery.
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>>1534331
even a fucking slime mold would avoid the tank with the acid. That doesn't prove anything.
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>>1520456
consensus seems to be that fish can feel when there'ss a pointy metal thing in their mouth, but they should be fine as long as you don't puncture the gill/cause excessive bleeding, etc. Personally, I think catch and release is dumb because why, but whatever.
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Ok but what about the baitfish
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>>1520499
And I'm sure if you got hit by a car no one would care either
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>>1520456
Hurt=/=injure
Ultimately, it may "hurt" the individual, but it won't harm the species at all. They will heal and reproduce. Some fish get "hook shy", anyway, but I know it can't be THAT bad when you keep angling the same fish over and over.
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Think of all the sharp pointy spines on most baitfish. So most predator fish get poked/stabbed on a daily basis by their own food, getting a hook in the mouth probably isn't all that different than a striped bass eating a white perch.
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>>1535045
Facts
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>>1520491
Circle hooks are only good for soaking bait. Can't use them with lures. I crush the barbs on all my hooks meant for sport fish that I won't keep. Both for the fish and myself as I primarily fish from a kayak. I leave the barbs if I'm fishing for meat.
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>>1520703
kek
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>>1520456
fish dont have a nervous system in the traditional sense, they cant really "feel" the hook in the normal sense
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>>1522826
>>1523034
>push em toward the camera jim no one will know they're only 10"
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>>1523204
see above post
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>>1520499

This. They're prey. We're predators. That's life.
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>>1522736
I'll remember this incredibly crude and demeaning post, anon, or will I? After all, I'm just a dumb octopus, stay away from outlets.
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>>1532434
do you have this picture in higher res? thanks in advance
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When I was boy we ran out of worms for bluegills so took one and impaled one of its eyeballs on the hook. Nevertheless it lasted long time and much to all surprise a short time later I caught same fish on its own eyeball. Just sayn
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>>1520456
>do hooks actually hurt the fish?
yes
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>>1537763
I never heard one say "ouch"
all those feelings you speak of are yours.
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>>1520499
basically
>>1535045
same
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>>1520456
Yes they might feel pain to some degree but even if they dont catch and release is still fucking retarded. Literally brainlet hobby. Everyone who doesmt fish for food should be shot
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>we don't really have definitions for pain besides what we feel ourselves, and fish don't feel pain the same way humans do, which is why I know exactly how it feels for them
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>>1537763
>>do hooks actually hurt the fish?
>yes
no
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>>1537826
t. faggot
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>>1520456
If you really don't want to hurt fish don't fish.
If you want to sport fish and minimize hurting fish, use barbless inline hooks on lures or barbless circlehooks (depends on what you're fishing for)
As for pain, they surely feel unease but it's not the same sense that we feel.
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>>1537734
Great thanks for pointing it out
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>>1532434
Here you go bud
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>>1538109
Source? Other than your ass
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>>1538132
His ass
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>>1538132
its been proven over and over fish do not feel pain.
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>>1538132
it was revealed to me in a dream
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>>1538305
Horsepucky. Part of a job I had was to cut to operculum off live (had to be live for another part of the sample process to succeed) english soles caught in trawl surveys. Almost every fish would shoot their jaw forward like they were screaming "OO!!". Screw that, they don't feel pain. If you were there, you'd know they do. Talk about Karma; I'm destined to hell for that.
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>>1539484
hahaha,,,yeah sure cool story bro.
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Who cares. It's catch and release, not catch them with pillows and cuddle them to calm them down before releasing them.
The whole point is to not kill the fish, a little pain never killed anyone.
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>>1520456
The fish being out of water for any amount of time causes them more discomfort than a hook in their boney ass lip.
Just don't be an inept fisherman and let them swallow the hook.
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>>1539523

Spoken like a basement-dwelling faggot who's never caught a bass. I've had a European bass swallow a 15" bait mackerel whole, head first, hooks included. You don't "let" them swallow a hook, many fish will do it on the first hit. Any species of flatfish is prone to do the same.
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>>1538132
fish a fish and start poking needles into its body
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>>1520567
Fucking idiot
From >https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/08/130808123719.htm
>These are the authors’ main points of criticism: Fish do not have the neuro-physiological capacity for a conscious awareness of pain.
Kys tree hugger faggot
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>>1539968
>>1540192
fuckin' retards.
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>>1539968
Holy shit you people are retarded
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>>1539547
>fishing flatfish
>using bait fish
Found your problem faggot.
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>>1520602
>what is fight or flight
u dumb
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>>1540845
and what tells it that it's time to flee Einstein?
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>>1540364
the brainlet strikes back
>>
not as much as being chopped up and eaten
>>
If it has the capacity to perceive pain in the same way we do chances are that it's either not feeling anything from the adrenaline rush and the slow asphyxiation. I'm not a marine biologist or anything but I think the hook would be the least of the fish's concerns.
>>
is anyone a marine biologist?
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>>1520701
Yikes at leftist attempts to mimic nationalist memes
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>>1538326
t. Nicolas Berdyaev
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>zoomers believe fish feel pain
>boomers believe instinctive actions aren't based on discomfort

This whole thread has me dying
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>>1520456
>i put a hook through it and yeeted it out the water
How evil!
>i put it back instead of having any of itall
Oh so nice
>i harm fish for fun and not food
Evil again.
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>>1541505
Would you rather be caught and eaten or caught and released? Exactly. Checkmate faggot.
>>
Do frogs feel pain?
https://youtu.be/5PgaqcYnspw
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>>1541303
You're retarded, also animals have nothing to do with leftist, untermensch
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>>1541505
>cause a small amount of harm
>evil
What kind of broken ass black and white perspective do you have.
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>>1522372
>giving the fish diabetes
>>
Boomers itt seething at the suggestion that their actions have actual consequences
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>>1520499
Based and this. Fished my entire life. I love it too much to care.
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>>1541540
fucking love 1rod. He's very entertaining even though he's pretty shit at fishing for stuff besides bass/catfish. Uncutangling is objectively the best fisherman on jewtube.
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>>1533911
>eating the scales
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>>1520701
Then Chad cries when he cleans up the dishes at STEM graduates table at a fancy restaurant while STEM grad is on a date with Chad's crush. STEM grad then proceeds to have a 3some with Chads crush and mom because STEM grad has a real job and doesn't suck dick on the side
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>>1520591
Pain is likely one of the first evolved forms of consciousness.
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>>1520604
Oh, it's "nerve bundles," where pain is felt. Who knew! Lol
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>>1520617
It's not uncommon for people to be idiots. It's still believed by many people in the medical profession that human infants don't feel pain, so who cares if you cutoff their foreskin without analgesia. Probably the same people in the fish feel no pain camp.
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>>1520456
here in Germany catch and release is actually illegal and you could get your fishing license revoked for doing so.

there is special list with size and time for every river
if your fish is to small or it has breeding season you must put it back, but if its big enough you must remove it.

German law says its illegal to cause any damage or pain to animals for fun so catch and release is illegal.

Fishing is for Food and not for the sake of getting the biggest fish and taking photograph and bragging.
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>>1520456
>do hooks actually hurt the fish?
Yes, but who gives a fuck? It doesn't usually kill or cripple them and that's the point. Fuck off with your hippie shit, the point of catch and release is to not fuck up the eco system more than necessary.
Also fish are fucking retarded and don't feel pain like other animals.
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>>1520508
>>1520591
>>1520604
>>1520606
>>1520622
>>1520623
>>1520627
>>1520629
>>1520636
>>1520643
>>1520663
>>1520703
>>1520822
Anyone else below who is skeptical too, read this:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1691351/
>tl;dr rainbow trout have nociceptors on their heads (nociceptors are the nerve endings responsible for pain signalling to the brain). All other conjecture as to the amount or the manner in which it is experiences is not being addressed here, but fish (at least rainbow trout) certainly FEEL pain in some form and amount
Now, you can start arguing about pain processing based upon the development, or lack, of certain regions of the brain, and determine what that level of pain means to you guys. The study seems to suggest that their future behavior can be altered from nociceptor stimuli, and that should be grounds for the avoidance of causing unnecessarey stimulation when possible.

If you want to actually dive down and determine at what kind of level of "pain" you want to draw your line in the sand at, the lowest form of sense and reaction I know of is probably something like chemotaxis, where cells respond to chemical density gradients within their environment and adjust what direction they will swim toward. I wouldn't say they feel pain, but their molecule receptors affect their behavior. That's a form of sensing that can be manipulated. When does it become complex enough that you give a damn?
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>>1544297
>When does it become complex enough that you give a damn?
When the fish starts complaining to the human rights court
>>
Lots of butthurt people in this thread. All I know is I'm going fishing tomorrow.
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>>1545066
Me too.
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fish has no feeling.
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>>1545105
they do feel pain.
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>>1545126
Such is life
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>>1541540
Fuck I didn't even watch that video. I know frogs are eaten in nature and it can be cruel but I just don't want to see a china bugman stick a hook through a frog while its still alive for some bullshit experiment.
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>>1544297
completely false.

Fish get an avoidence response due to Group C nerve fibers.

They lack A-delta fibers. ie pain nerves

So a fish gets hooked, their brain tells them to get away. But the physical pain from the hook they are oblivious to.

http://www.vapaa-ajankalastaja.fi/files/Tiedostot/RoseEtAl_FishFish_online_2012.pdf
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>>1541539
>>1541810
Its been explained pretty well by >>1544235
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>>1545126
they don't tho



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