https://www.commondreams.org/news/2020/02/13/sanders-argues-medicare-all-vital-union-workers-theyre-losing-wage-increases-becauseResponding to the powerful Nevada Culinary Workers Union's criticism of Medicare for All in new fliers—a critique that was readily seized upon by some 2020 Democrats—Sen. Bernie Sanders on Wednesday night made the case for why achieving single-payer is so vital for union workers and everyone else in the United States."Many, many unions throughout this country—including some in Unite Here, and the Culinary Union is part of Unite Here—absolutely understand that we've got to move to Medicare for All," Sanders, a 2020 Democratic presidential candidate, said in an appearance on MSNBC. "And the reason is, if you talk to union negotiators, they will tell you they spend half of their time arguing against cutbacks for the healthcare that they have.""They're losing wage increases because the cost of healthcare is soaring," Sanders continued. "When everybody in America has comprehensive healthcare, and when we join the rest of the industrialized world by guaranteeing healthcare to all people, unions can then negotiate for higher wages, better working conditions, better pensions. So I think the future for unions is through Medicare for All."Asked by MSNBC host Chris Hayes to respond to 2020 rival Pete Buttigieg's tweet Wednesday "piggybacking" on the Culinary Workers Union's criticism of Medicare for All, Sanders said, "My response is that I have a lot more union support than Pete Buttigieg has or I think ever will have."
>>550474The Culinary Union—a powerful political force in Nevada, which holds its Democratic presidential caucus on Feb. 22—echoed the common criticism that Medicare for All would "end" union healthcare in its new flyers. The union doubled down on the criticism in the face of backlash, claiming Medicare for All would "take away the system of care we have built over eight decades."Union leaders and members supporting Medicare for All have repeatedly pushed back against that line of attack. "I really resent the 16 million workers who joined together and bargained for better health plans being pitted against millions of Americans struggling to get healthcare coverage," Service Employees International Union (SEIU) president Mary Kay Henry said last August.According to Labor for Single Payer, 19 unions representing nearly 10 million workers across the U.S. have endorsed Rep. Pramila Jayapal's (D-Wash.) Medicare for All Act of 2019.In response to Buttigieg's tweet Wednesday touting his own "Medicare for All Who Want It" public option plan, Sara Nelson, president of the Association of Flight Attendants, accused the former South Bend, Indiana mayor of "perpetuating" a "gross myth.""Not every union member has union healthcare plans that protect them," Nelson tweeted. "Those that do have it, have to fight like hell to keep it. If you believe in labor then you’d understand an injury to one is an injury to all."
>>550475As HuffPost's Dave Jamieson reported Wednesday, "the Culinary membership itself is almost certainly divided on the issue" of Medicare for All, which would virtually eliminate private insurance and provide comprehensive care to everyone in the United States for free at the point of service.Sanders' proposal would require that company savings from Medicare for All be used to increase workers' wages and pension benefits."Sanders faced some tough questions on Medicare for All and some heckling when he spoke before union members in Las Vegas in December," Jamieson noted. "But the Las Vegas Review Journal reported that he otherwise enjoyed an 'enthusiastic reception,' with the crowd 'firmly behind Sanders' and chanting 'Bernie! Bernie!' at times."The Culinary Union has not yet endorsed a 2020 presidential candidate.Sal Rosselli, president of the National Union of Healthcare Workers, which endorsed Sanders and Sen. Elizabeth Warren (D-Mass.), told HuffPost that "over the years members sacrificed wage and other economic increases to achieve employer paid healthcare for them and their families—now every contract cycle is a fight to maintain it.""Medicare for All would take healthcare off the bargaining table so improvements could be made to pensions, wages, training, child/elder care, and other economic issues," said Rosselli.
wait the union is acting against the best interests of its members so that it can stay in power?
>>550487I think it's more a case of desperate self preservation. They've fought so hard for what they've got they're afraid of losing it.It doesn't seem to have occurred to them that with enough support you can just change the rules.Why fight tooth and nail for employer healthcare, sacrificing benefit after benefit for it, when you can just get it guaranteed?
>>550487currently 10 million unionized workers pay for their own healthcare via whatever system they set up for themselves. bernie wants them to cancel that so they can pay for their healthcare and the healthcare of 40 million freeloaders via increased taxation. its a net loss for the unions, they'll be paying just as much in total costs and the quality of care their workers get will decline.
>>550534so because 10 million people got lucky, 40 million get fucked?
>>550487>do I try to argue for better pay AND medical benefits>or just better payIt's a no brainer for bargaining.>>550534Based retard.
>>550607>10 million people got lucky, 40 million get fucked?That's life, participation is not rewarded by itself.I am sorry you were not born in South Sudan.
>>550534You act like all of these unionized workers are ecstatic with their healthcare. They are most certainly not. It's obvious that you have never been part of a Union in your life, much less had a job.The idea that unions are stalwart warriors that protect the blue collar American worker is some hilariously outdated bullshit.
>>550534I am a teacher. We have a union and the school board of the county is the largest employer in the county. Our healthcare is shit.
I work for a nice employer.My healthcare is literally free as well as all routine visits and medication
As a lab med tech is medacare for all going to get me more or less money? As it is the only thing keeping hospitals in the black is insurance. Medicare pays for shit. Befoe some asshole screams about hospital profits all capital earned over costs gows back into the system. To build new wings, facilities, modernization.
>>550474>commondreams.orgfuck off back to plebbit and take your shitacular site with you.might as well link kotaku or shareblue
>>550646>all capital earned over costs gows back into the systemAs somebody employed in the healthcare industry and privy to details of higher-up compensation, this is not a true or even remotely correct statement.
>>550633Have you considered trying to earn yourself a better job instead of leeching off the educational system while complaining that its not good enough for you or are you just hoping to marry a rich guy someday?
>>550646you boss will be able to steal a lot more money from the government with more clients, but you will always be paid market rate for you job regardless.
>>550493>Why fight tooth and nail for employer healthcare, sacrificing benefit after benefit for it, when you can just get it guaranteed?Because public healthcare will not be as good as the private healthcare they already have. This is the problem that every American (with a decent job) has with Bernies plan.
>>550683How does him changing his job to another remove the problem that the healthcare is shit in that job? That's right. It doesn't. That job still has a shit healthcare. If he were to study a new profession. It doesn't remove the original problem, shit healthcare.
>>550700>Because public healthcare will not be as good as the private healthcare they already haveWhy not? Says who? You? According to what studies is public healthcare automatically worse than private healthcare.
>>550629>That's lifeBut "life" i.e. society itself is not written in stone. You can make things BETTER in society by making them better by laws for example. Sure it can cost more money, but that's small part life i.e. money. Everything that demands work, costs. Every good thing costs money., every better thing costs more money. But the benefits for societies on the whole outweigh the cost. Health is more important than money for most of the people. Better and fairer society is good for most of the people. For self centered and greedy assholes it probably isn't. But tough luck. They can always move to another country where they can be greedy and selfish assholes. In democratic countries rules of the society are decided democratically. If people want better healthcare and want it to be paid by taxes, then they should get it. That's democracy.>inb4 America is not really a democracyThat's also the point.
>>550636Ditto. I'm convinced that most of the people complaining about healthcare costs are unemployed NEETs.
>>550636>>550709Most people have some version of Aetna/Bluecross/etc. from their jobs, which have co-pays but are cheap. The net result of M4All is paying more out of pocket in taxes, but not getting fucked the second you're sick for more than 3 months and get laid off because of it and go on fucking COBRA. It's the same arguments people made against social security- why should I pay more taxes right now when I could just be smart? Shit happens, wouldn't you rather just get paid more by your job and know even if you lost it you could get healthcare?
>>550709I'm convinced most people complaining about state-run healthcare have never had their coverage terminated or watched people die like dogs from a cold.
>>550725Yeah.Whoever was annoyed about 40 million 'freeloaders', can we also add the 26,000 people who die from lack of healthcare in this country every fucking year?Do the math, by the way. That's about one every 20 minutes.
>>550706>According to what studies is public healthcare automatically worse than private healthcare.The 120 000+ people who travel from Europe and Canada to the US, every single year, for medical treatment.
>>550713The actual argument is that of cost. Just assuming the government will spend money like the private sector (it wont) means we have to fork out an extra 33 trillion. But we both know (just like social security) that costs are going to explode once the government is incharge of spending. I dont want to have to fork out half of my income, for an inferior service.
>>550745Including a premier. Their version of a governor.When the leaders of your country are abandoning your healthcare system that's not a good sign.
>>550746This is is it blatantly wrong.Literally every government run healthcare system spends a fraction of what we do.They're not trying to make a fucking profit off people getting sick.
>>550752No, its not because bernies model is not going to nationalize the healthcare system. The costs will remain the same, all that is changing is that the payment of costs is being socialized.
>>550752You cant compare healthcare costs of tiny european countries that are the size and population of US states. You have to compare US states to equivalent European countries and when you do, you will notice that healthcare spending is pretty similar to European costs in most states. https://www.kff.org/other/state-indicator/health-spending-per-capita/?currentTimeframe=0&sortModel=%7B%22colId%22:%22Location%22,%22sort%22:%22asc%22%7D The states which pull up spending are states with socialized spending: Vermont, Cali etc. The average US cost is actually 8k per captia which is the same as Switzerland and only 1K more than most of Europe. lrn2research faggot
>>550755What do you think "nationalizing" the heathcare system means?
>>550760The term is self descriptive, focus on the content of the argument. Stop trying to pivot into semantics.
>>550759Healthcare for profit is immoral and the United States is the only country where it's legal.https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK217902/
>>550761>payment of costs is being socialized>not going to nationalize the healthcare systemPick one and only one.
>>550765Where do you think the big markups come from, faggot?I'll give you a hint - it's the insurance companies.Sorry, not much of a hint.
>>550762120 000 Canadians and Europeans per year think its perfectly moral. Also, please adress the fact that in most US states healthcare costs are similar to European costs. >>550765First, the left cannot meme. Second, what is supply and what is demand? one side is being socialized (demand) the other is not (supply). How is socializing demand going to result in lower costs?
>>550766That is 100% factual anon. You need to face reality. >>550768The "big markups" are just going to be pushed into your taxes. Do you not understand how insurance works? All you are doing is turning your ultra-efficient private insurer into an ultra-inefficient government insurer.
>>550769>applying supply and demand to a fucking captive marketAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
>>550768>push through ACA>intervene in private insurance>results into premiums increasing by 60-120%>the solution is more intervention!Interesting strategy, lets see how it pans out.
>>550771The demand is captive, not the supply. You fucking idiot.
>>550771You are arguing about minutiae. You havent adressed the basic premise of the argument - bernies plan socializes costs but does nothing real to bring down costs. Sure, you can negotiate down the costs of prescriptions (which you can do without his plan) but that isnt going to address $2000 ambulance rides and $1500 broken arms. Its also not adressing the fact that the middle class will now have to pay for their own healthcare as well as the healthcare of everyone below them.
>>550773Yes, that's a captive market. It means demand can't go below a minimum, which means the supply ratio doesn't stabilize through competition, it just keeps creeping upwards.Sounds familiar, doesn't it?>>550774I see you haven't read the plan.
>>550775You are describing insurance, not hospitals. Yes I have read the plan. You know full well that his plan is not going to adress the underlying issue which is medical costs and is simply going to socialize the payment of the costs to the detriment of the middle-class.
>>550776And yet the data says it will be cheaper for pretty much everyone.
>>550474Culinary union just wanted an excuse to throw in with MSM darling Pete.Biden was too old so they picked a guy with literally no experience instead
>>550779>And yet the data says it will be cheaper for pretty much everyone.Sure, jan
>>550534If the union workers aren't making six figures, they're unaffected by the tax increases that are going to be imposed on the wealthy. Google is your friend, anon
>>550815>If the union workers aren't making six figures, they're unaffected by the tax increases that are going to be imposed on the wealthy.Until the wealthy flee the tax increases, and then all that's left to tax are the union workers who, historically, are violently brought into line by the party or executed for being counter revolutionary.
>>550814https://thinkprogress.org/mercatis-medicare-for-all-study-0a8681353316/2 trillion dollars over 10 years, according to a study funded by republicans. Turns out cutting out the profit motive saves money, who knew?
>>550817>muh globalism relocation argumentsuuuuuure. Why is it that globalism is a completely useless and horrible economic theory until it supports your argument?
>>550828>suuuuuure. Why is it that globalism is a completely useless and horrible economic theory until it supports your argument?https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/non%20sequiturBet you wish you could just send me to the gulag, eh comrade?
>>550830Explain how all these rich people are juast going to flee the country with all their assets when all the business and all the market demand is here. You're literally using the same logic as Patrick Star.>let's just take the entire US economy and push it somewhere else!
>>550833>Explain how all these rich people are juast going to flee the country with all their assets when all the business and all the market demand is here.What are foreign/offshore asserts?Also, the businesses and market demand won't be there after the economy tanks thanks to Sander's terribad economic policies and heavy taxation.>You're literally using the same logic as Patrick Star.Foolish of me to expect a Bernie supporter to be able to have an adult conversation about economics without resorting to a 4th grade level of thinking and trying to make references in terms of children's cartoons.You know 4chan is 18+, right?
>>550837>the people who already utilize these services will be forced to utilize these servicesQuestion: what do you think these businesses do right now? You can't seriously love the taste of boot leather this much that you'd cram your brain in your ass.
>>550745>>550747>120,000>across a combined population pool of close to a billionYou won't like how many US citizens leave the US for medical tourism, friend.https://www.usitc.gov/publications/332/executive_briefings/chambers_health-related_travel_final.pdf
>>550853>>550853People come to US for quality healthcare, people from US go abroad for free/cheaper healthcare that the entire argument he was making, anon
>>550853>100,000-200,000 incoming>150,000-320,000 outgoingbig oof
>>550859>higher qualityIt's the equivalent of riding first class vs commercial. Outside of its exclusivity and uber price mark which makes cutting edge treatment feasible, nothing is notably different in terms of quality. Anon's point of "well it's more expensive and fewer people use it, but it's better in that your state of the art private hospital bed is worth its weight in gold so everyone should deal with it (including those that can't afford it)" is retarded.
>>550891There are a lot of places outside the US that do surgeries US hospitals aren't able/aren't equipped to do, not to mention the tend to actually be cheaper.
>>550891>It's the equivalent of riding first class vs commercial.Don't be retarded. America provides the best quality of care in the world. If somebody wants cheaper prescription medication, they visit Canada. If they want to have the best quality of treatment for cancer or heart disease, they come to America.
>>550901>best quality of careThat would be France. US is 37th.http://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/best-healthcare-in-the-world/
>>550903>healthcare>best quality of careThere is a distinction here that you're missing.
>>550918Coverage is a quality of care, anon; even then, taking into account survival rates (which already is leaning in favor of US-metrics since those who wouldn't be able to afford them aren't counted), they are still languishing behind the likes of South Korea, Australia, or the Scandibros. So unless you have some well researched paper to work with that isn't some blog or insurance think-tank, I'll take the metrics given.
>>550474>>Government gets involved in college and medical, prices go up!>>/News/trannies wonder how that could be!
>>550859People go abroad to get non sanctioned surgeries/last ditch surgeries.
>>550923>Coverage is a quality of careUnequivocally retarded.
>>550891>It's the equivalent of riding first class vs commercialThat doesn't really work imo. More like commercial vs private military jet.Most people wouldn't have access to that "higher" quality even if they spent more money.The exclusivity is where you should be focusing on, the uber price mark is mostly a bait where to those it matters it's impossible but to those who afford it then it's not even a worry.
>>550833Easy anon, the American tax system. The American tax system is pretty much built to reward the business owner and squeeze the shit out of the rest. As a small business owner making six figures, I effectively pay less taxes legally than my friends who make 55k a year. Rich people do this on a far grander scale and there is no way Bernie would have the clout to focus on pushing his medical plan through AND reworking over 100 years of tax code. I'm not saying his health plan can't work as I haven't read it. But like Warren and others before, facts need to be faced. New taxes that get introduced and aimed at the rich always fall on the middle class.
>>550955So what you're saying is...fix the tax system.Bernie has a plan to do that. You should look it up.
>>550833>when all the business and all the market demand is here. Offshore assets and tax havens. Wealth has a gravitational pull. If you move all of the wealthy out of America and into another country, and they take their assets with them, then all of the associated businesses that thrived off that wealth will move too. The taxes generated by those individuals and corporations will then primarily benefit that specific country.
>>550981 they have to leave first. They won't.The New Deal didn't make them leave and neither will this.
>>550629No that’s not life that’s a retarded and broken system we don’t have these problems here in Canada...and before you retards say muh tax dollars our taxes are the same or lower. Then again our government isn’t incompetent (excluding Trudeau) and we don’t have corruption.https://www.debt.org/tax/brackets/
>>550985They said the same thing about Venezuela.
>>550991Yeah, because Maduro went full dictator and nationalized the core industry - oil.You're not about to tell me that the US's core industry is healthcare insurance, are you?
>>550972No anon, I'm telling you to quit snorting the campaign propaganda like a fresh eyed doe and look at it from the perspective of people used to politician lies 24/7.Even if Bernie and the dems some how managed to take back the house and senate, there is no f'ing way they would be able to roll out their plans in a smooth enough fashion without fucking up everyone and everything. Look at the ACA and how that was floundering even with dems nearly owning all 3 branches. The repubs at the state level can and will make sure the plan is fucked every step of the way.And its not just Dems either, even the repubs struggle to get shit done outside of tax give aways to the rich. Notice how even when they have all 3 branch + the feds courts they still got hardly shit done on taxes for the non mega wealthy or medical? You want to get people on board with the plan, stop beating around the bush, explain in simple terms, and just admit that everyone will have to share the price burden for what will (hopefully) be a better outcome than the current system.
>>550474You have literally just posted a campaign advertisement that can't even masquerade as an opinion piece, much less news.I hope Bernie does win. I hope we all get the gulags we deserve.
>>551019It's his response to his most recent criticism, which the mainstream media refuses to give more than the bare minimum of airtime for some stupid reason.I'm sure trump has had his share of media mistreatment when his response to whatever criticism doesn't get a proper platform. This is just correcting the problem.
>>550632>>550633I'm IBEW and my local has a pretty bangin' health insurance plan that let's me bank hours and accumulate a flex account, which gets tax free contributions per hour from my employer plus 2,000 from my hall each year.Basically I don't have to worry about unemployment because I stay insured through my banked hours when I'm laid off. If worst came to worst, I'd dip into my flex account.I like what I have and want to keep it. That's why I and many other members of my local want to see a public option: medicare for all who WANT it.
>>550667No retard the same, single payer is cheaper
>>550901Nobody is going to come to your shithole country and get charged 2-3x more than what you’d pay at home.
>>551033Don't be an asshole and foist another ACA tier broken system on people just because whatever you've cobbled together works.Ask not what your country can do for you.
>>551033How much did your union have to give u0 to get you something that good?If you don't have that held over you constantly, your negotiators glcsn get you even be5ter things, like a bigger paycheck, or a bigger pension.M4a buffs the negotiating power of unions.
>>551040Success breeds jealousy, what can we say?
>>550994He also nationalized steel production and agriculture. FDR came extremely close.
>>551068Shit costly healtcare=/=successIt's the opposite of success. But patriotism sure helps you cope.
>>551090Pull yourself up by your bootstraps anon. Unironically.
If government run medical care is so good, why does Bernie want to outlaw private insurance? Why would anyone want a private plan if his medical care is so good?
>>551093>why does Bernie want to outlaw private insurance?Sauce?>Why would anyone want a private plan if his medical care is so good?Big thunk.
sanders is crap, prove me wronghe's an old communist kike
>>551211>That means boldly transforming our dysfunctional system by ending the use of private health insurance, except to cover non-essential care like cosmetic surgeries.>exceptNothing wrong with that. Misleading as hell from the examiner and you.
>>551243lmao when all of the best surgeons decide that they're "cosmetic" and old rich ppl can afford to have survivable, private "cosmetic" arterial bypass surgeries while the rest of us are dying in government hospital staffed with affirmative action hires who wouldn't even have graduated high school without different academic standards for different skin colors.
>>550474>we've got to move to Medicare for All," Sanders, a 2020 Democratic presidential candidate, saidSocialized medicine (which I personally support) is only viable in a homogenous Western society but will utterly fail int he U.S. if the bazillions of illegal Mexicans are allowed to sign up.If you want to make America Great, mandate work owned co-operative for any business larger then a “family business” and/or require unions for ALL jobs.
>>550474forget the republicans and democrats, OP's dog for president
>>550770the billions in profits health insurance companies make will be an immediate drop in national cost of care by the same billions of dollars
>>550759>2014heres are some per capita figures from 2017https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/health-spending-u-s-compare-countries/#item-relative-size-wealth-u-s-spends-disproportionate-amount-health
>>551837This. If we make healthcare insurance a not-for-profit system the cost will drop by the profit margin.>inb4 muh profit motive spurs innovationThere are few ways to innovate insurance that don't involve more exotic and clever ways of taking the customer's money. Not all innovation is good.
>>551837>the billions in profits health insurance companies make will be an immediate drop in national cost of care by the same billions of dollars>>551940>If we make healthcare insurance a not-for-profit system the cost will drop by the profit margin.Government agencies spend $9,000 on a toilet seat and $12,000 a hammer. You'll get rid of profit margins and replace it with a system that both increases cost AND waste. And you'll be helping to fund black projects at the same time!
>>551977>Government agencies spend $9,000 on a toilet seat and $12,000 a hammer.This is because of profits.
>>551977>confusing govt service with govt fundingAllow me to educate you.There is a huge gulf between socializing healthcare versus socializing healthcare insurance. That gulf is as vast as the difference between the VA AND Medicare.VA is socialized healthcare. Hospitals run with all the minimum acceptable functionality of a DMV. I have heard basically zero success stories about it.Medicare is socialized healthcare insurance. Pick your practice and send the govt the bill. I have heard zero bad stories about it, and the formal studies I found with a simple Google search show improvements in care, reductions in cost, and a drastic fall in the number of hospitalizations.The contrast is almost jarring.
>>550474The unions will be safely aboard the Trump train if Sanders gets the nomination.
>>551977That's only if you don't eliminate corruption.Some of the worst cost-increases come when people who want the public system dead sneak into power.Then, hiding behind "it would be a crime to kill me unless you can convince all my best friends that I committed treason lol" they deregulate, open up loopholes, or sign no-bid contracts with their own companies.Regulatory Capture doesn't mean the public option is some impossible dream; it means you have to kill the fucking cancer no matter how illegal McConnell claims irradiating him until he shrivels up may be.
>>550646>Medicare pays for shit.BULLSHIT, medicare pays out way less than private insurance, medicaid even less so.
>>552055>Medicare is socialized healthcare insurance. Pick your practice and send the govt the bill.You seriously cannot think, for a fucking second, how this is going to be a problem? Your solution to price guaging is not market reform or regulation, its to socialize the payment of the price gauging? I am seriously starting to think Bernie is a corporate shill because we are about to write a blank cheque for the medical sector (just like we did with the universities).
>>550713>but not getting fucked the second you're sick for more than 3 months and get laid off because of it and go on fucking COBRA. That is a very specific scenario which only an insignificant percentage of the population will ever have to deal with.
>>552352>being sick for more than a few daysyeah that's called 'literally any surgical operation' when you're not working a desk job.Anyone who has to move around and loft things for a living - ie MOST blue-collar workers - can't do their job properly after surgery, or aren't supposed to. Most of them come back in to work when they really shouldn't be, because they don't want to lose their job and the healthcare that goes with it.They work while recovering, they hurt themselves even more, then they go back in for more care and have to work while recovering from THAT. it's a downward spiral. And the entire time they're paying deductibles. It's a shitty system.
>>552351YES.nordicchad.pngIt works in Sweden, Canada, the UK...it will work here.
>>552351>Your solution to price guaging is not market reform or regulation, its to socialize the payment of the price gauging?1/2Except...thats not how it works. Medicare, or any insurance company, doesn't just foot the bill. In order for a doctor (or hospital, clinic, lab, whatever) to be able to bill an insurance company they have to agree to accept the insurance company's rate. My normal billing rate for a private pay client is $180 for a 53 minute session. Blue Cross pays me about $156 and change, but they send me so many referrals that I easily make up the loss in volume. The company, whether its Medicare or Blue Cross or Bob's Discount $15k Deductible Shitshow, understands that doctors are generally going to accept the controlled rate in exchange for access to that pool of patients. The hospitals, where some of the worst price gouging happens, know they have to accept EVERY plan or they won't be able to retain doctors. All Medicare For All would do is change the landscape of plans and shrink the overall insurance market because employers would end up offering (vastly cheaper) supplement plans that would ultimately squeeze out the smaller, shittier players in the insurance world. As both a provider and a patient I'm not exactly crying about Humana or Magellan going belly up.
>>5523512/2The worst offenders in terms of price gouging, though, are the drug companies. So far they've been able to hold off heavier regulation or market reforms by playing the various stakeholders against one another and encouraging a complicated system of middlemen. As it stands right now, the insurance industry is content to let Pharmacy Benefits Management companies do their negotiating for them, and that means a big enough section of the market is covered privately that the appetite for the feds stepping in and setting drug prices isn't there yet. Every drug company in the world knows that the day after the federal government takes over paying claims is when the United States will do what every other western country has already done and start setting price controls on drugs. Again, its not the big players that are most worried. Novartis, J&J, Mereck and the like will all just take a hit to their bottom lines and continue on making obscene amounts of money instead of unfathomable amounts of money. They don't like the idea of having to negotiate prices and they're afraid of what happens when patent laws are tightened up, but they'll survive even after evergreening gets stopped. Its the smaller companies, the investment capital drug manufacturers who generally don't actually invent anything, that are shitting themselves. Theres an entire business model in the pharmaceutical world that basically revolves around buying something thats currently cheap, limiting supply in the US market, then jacking up the price. Theres no way a business model like that will survive when its Congress footing the bill. Again, I could give a shit about those guys.
>>552314bullshit. they'll take national healthcare over the weakening and possible destruction of all unionshttps://www.epi.org/publication/unprecedented-the-trump-nlrbs-attack-on-workers-rights/
>>552567Also national healthcare guarantees something the unions normally have to fight for, which strengthens their bargaining position.
>>552569This. Healthcare becomes a massive shell game during collective bargaining and the year-to-year unpredictability of premiums doesn't square well with the 3, 5, and 10 year contracts Unions often favor. Take healthcare out of the equation and bargaining comes down to much more concrete issues like compensation, retirement, and work rules.
>>552567>>552569>>552582oh look, its another episode of middle-class kids pretend to understand the working man. Fact of the matter is those Union boys get some of the best healthcare in the country and under Sanders they will lose it. You are taking something from them, you can argue it how you want but they will be losing out. Fucking bernouts, just when i started thinking magapedes were as cultish as you could get... you faggots showed up...
>>552598>Fact of the matter is those Union boys get some of the best healthcare in the country and any disruption to their job, from injury to lost business to bad negotiation, means they lose itFTFYDon't act like the best of a shit situation is the best of all possible worlds. If all your options are bad the clear solution is to change the game.
>>552598Oh look, it's a full of shit asshole who thinks he knows better than anyone else because he's a REAL working man. Get of your high horse. You having a job doesn't qualify anything more than having a job. You actually have to make an argument to argue and not just attack other people and calling them childish. It's showing your childishness and lack of argument. Time to grow up and learn to argue.
>>552598Working class people being fiercely protective of their family tradition of being ass raped by capitalism. I've spoken with people all over this country who unironically believe their right to suffer from preventable illnesses and die/go bankrupt trying to afford to buy prescription medication is indelibly linked to American tradition - as if we were to gut this system of profiteering on the death of Americans that our country would be unrecognizable. They fear the uncertainty of change more than they fear the objective reality that unchecked capitalism kills millions of people every year. You people are truly the most perplexing creatures alive.
>>552536I'm noticing these countries are also a majority European.The USA is a mestizo filled hellhole, it won't work unless there's a final solution for that problem.
>>550629>better things aren't possible
>>552598my union (the ILWU) supported Sanders in the last election as well
>>552802of course you did, comrade
>>552603>best healthcare in the country and any disruption to their job, from injury to lost business to bad negotiation, means they lose itNo anon, that is extremely rare. Yet again, your middle class sense of superiority makes you think that these considerations have not been negotiated in the past - because naturally the working man is too stupid to understand them! No, what we need is a bunch of unemployed middle-class brats with no marketable skills and a mountain of student debt to make our decisions for us. >>552641>re re re capitalism Opinion discarded >>552637>u dont know how to argue! >wall to wall ad homs The cult of bernie never fails to deliver.
>>552831I'm curious what the America you think you live in is like. Are the clouds truly made of cotton candy? How don't you get super sticky when it rains? Does your gaslighting burn the cotton candy and that's how it rains?
>>552853Yet another non-argument
>>552810>you didt. Ivan
>>552831>The cult of BernieNice straw man/ad hominem
>>552856You haven't said any argument with ALL of those posts. Just attacking "middle class" posters ie straw men. That's not an argument honey. Learn to argue sweaty x. You're a probably a troll so you won't. I think you're the same poster that posts here every time just like that. No argument whatsoever just ad hominems, straw men and lots of bullshit.
>>552810>ad hominem vs the unions>after an entire chain of posts 'defending' the unions against Sanders' healthcare planWell done. You played yourself.
>>552810source is right here https://www.ilwu.org/ilwu-moves-beyond-endorsing-bernie-sanders/ILWU is also one of the strongest and most effective unions in the country
>>552941Neat! What other unions are on the Bern train?
>>552953I ain't moving shit, I'm asking! I don't know. Have any unions announced support for Bernie?
>>552944more than for anyone else, it seemshttps://www.politico.com/news/2020/01/24/bernie-sanders-labor-103136
>>550901What I don't get is why conservatives who talk about quality of healthcare assume that if we DO have a healthcare for all system, we won't still have doctors you can pay to give you the same quality you currently get. Public and private healthcare isn't mutually exclusive.
>>553242Bumping this.>>553310I think it's based in the logic that a public payment system has no profit motive and can therefore operate at cost, cutting out any private operator with ease.This is in turn based on the flawed logic that m4a nationalizes the SERVICE, instead of the PAYMENT.If a doctor is really good and charges above what m4a pays people can still pay for him out of pocket. There's nothing stopping that.
>>552642there's also the matter of size.those countries are all relatively small. the US is massive. it is just not feasible to run something like that at that scale.now if you wanted to do it state by state, maybe, but then you still would end up with massive quality gaps in more rural states, and I don't even know how you would tie that all together cohesively at the national level
>>553499>the US is massive>it's not feasible to run something like that at that scaleCanada, Australia, and even fucking Russia don't seem to have that problem, and they have severely lower population densities than the US.>you would have massive quality gaps in more rural statesDo we not have that now? My family in the Ozarks have to drive about half an hour for a hospital. At least with a national healthcare system, you can put funds into developing rural areas short of the Alaskan wilderness.