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https://www.chicagotribune.com/columns/eric-zorn/ct-perspec-zorn-abortion-rape-heartbeat-ohio-child-argentina-20190509-story.html

An 11-year-old rape victim in northwestern Ohio is pregnant, according to news reports, and a highly restrictive state law on abortion signed last month says a girl in her position must carry and deliver her rapist’s baby.

In arguing the abortion issue I used to test the zealotry of my anti-choice opponents with a hypothetical question with similar facts, and was often told such a situation was too far-fetched to be probative. But now the hypothetical is real.

A barely pubescent girl has been impregnated, allegedly, by a 26-year-old man who had sex with her on multiple occasions, and the pure anti-abortion position is that the law should prevent her from terminating her pregnancy unless it’s to save her life or spare her grave bodily harm.

Ohio’s Human Rights Protection Act, signed April 11 by Republican Gov. Mike DeWine, is one of those “heartbeat” laws that ban abortion as soon as doctors can detect fetal cardiac activity, which starts at about six weeks of gestation, even before some women know they’re pregnant.

Such laws, passed recently by five other states, are among the extreme measures designed to bait the increasingly conservative U.S. Supreme Court into overturning the 1973 Roe v. Wade decision that recognized a woman’s right to an abortion in most circumstances.

Ohio’s new law doesn’t grant exceptions for rape and incest — exceptions favored by more than 70 percent of the population in numerous polls. And although local news outlets haven’t reported the estimated duration of this particular rape victim’s pregnancy, inevitably girls in her position will be legally compelled to endure the physical and emotional burdens of pregnancy and childbirth.
>>
She won’t be. The new restrictions aren’t scheduled to go into effect until mid-July and will almost certainly be stayed by federal judges as challenges to such brazen violations of Roe make their way up the appeals process. If the girl decides to end her pregnancy, she will be able to.

Forcing such a victim to remain pregnant is inherent in anti-abortion logic, which says that even a microscopic embryo has full human rights — rights that can’t be abrogated by the sins of the biological father.

But the logic falls apart for those who allow for exceptions in the most grim, pitiable cases imaginable — impregnated children. Those who say those children along with other victims of rape and incest should be able to obtain abortions, as even some “heartbeat” laws permit, have revealed their opposition to abortion as merely a proxy for their opposition to non-procreational sex — a different moral judgment altogether.

When hardliners try to keep on the high ground, the results are disturbing.

A follow-up anti-abortion bill in the legislative hopper in Ohio would, among other things, ban "drugs or devices used to prevent the implantation of a fertilized ovum,” which includes several popular forms of birth control.

The Alabama legislature on Thursday tabled until next week the consideration of a proposal to make the performing of an abortion a felony punishable by as many as 99 years in prison unless it is to prevent serious health risks to the mother.

Earlier this year in Argentina, a country with strong prohibitions against abortion, a 12-year-old girl and an 11-year-old girl, both impregnated by men in their 60s, were denied abortions and ultimately underwent Caesarean deliveries at 24 and 23 weeks, respectively. Both babies died.
>>
The case of the 11-year-old girl, known in the press by the pseudonym “Lucia,” was particularly disturbing. She discovered she was pregnant by her grandmother’s boyfriend at 17 weeks, according to the Guardian, and even though the law allowed her get an abortion as a rape victim, government, health and religious officials along with anti-abortion activists in her home province strove to delay her family’s request for an abortion until the fetus was deemed viable and it was too late for an abortion.

Hospital nurses reportedly gave Lucia steroid shots to help the fetus’ lungs mature but told her they were vitamin shots, while lawyers swamped the family with paperwork.

Those who think such coercion and violations of personal autonomy couldn’t happen here are failing to take the measure of those determined to strip women and girls of their reproductive freedoms.

Opponents’ most recent ploy has been to put forth the grotesque lie, amplified by our grotesquely dishonest president, that abortion-rights logic allows for post-birth infanticide at the parents’ whim. It’s the most insincere manifestation yet of arguments rooted in the false notion that women with healthy babies are waddling into clinics during their third trimester to end their inconvenient pregnancies.

Meanwhile, the efforts to deny even the most vulnerable victims of sex crimes the right not to bear their rapists’ babies are real. And if abortion-rights supporters don’t rise up to stop them at every level, they will succeed.

>This is what you sowed /pol/
>>
>>397921
>This is what you sowed /pol/

And that's a good thing.
>>
Based
>>
How on Earth would grave bodily harm not come to an 11 year old giving birth?
>>
>>397925
That an 11 year old girl should give birth to a rape baby? I already see you're ready to go to hell and then be Snapped from existence by god when the end times come.
>>
>>397930
>>397919

You'd be defending this is the rapist was a Muslim
>>
>>397930
Let's look at this through a progress lens. That 11 year old white girl is paying for the crimes of her white colonial ancestors when they raped this land and forced 11 year old brown girls to bear their children.

>I already see you're ready to go to hell and then be Snapped from existence by god when the end times come.
The Marvel Cinematic Universe is not real, regardless of what the Daily Show tells you.
>>
>>397937
>>397940
>attacking imaginary strawmen
do you 2 have actual arguments?
>>
>>397937
>>397940
Says the guys who keeps sucking the antichrist's dick. Muslim terrorists are shit and you guys are even bigger pieces of shit.

Also >>397940, you fail at metaphors and should probably go back to grade school
>>
>>397943
The same grade school where you learned that god is real and punishes people by sending them to hell then snapping his fingers like Thanos? I think I'll pass.
>>
>>397946
I guess you fap to CP with how much you seem to want this 11 year old girl to give birth to a 26 year old man's rape baby, back in the old days before /pol/ existed you would been doxxed and vanned.
>>
>>397947
Is that how investigators used to locate and handle CP consumers? Times have changed old man. Now you have no choice but to watch the miracle of life. Some people call that a gift from god you know.
>>
>>397948
>Some people call that a gift from god you know.
he said he as he raped and impregnated children
>>
>>397948
Guess we can add murder to the charges, because that 11 year old girl is not going to survive giving birth, or she will likely kill her self, and you can be sure that's gonna be another reason you go to hell.
>>
>>397961
honestly this is the kind of line you'd expect in one of some of the particularly unpleasant lolicon pornography that japan manages to come up with

"RECEIVE THE BLESSINGS OF GOD" shouted the fat priest as he 〇〇〇'd in the 〇〇〇 of the 〇〇〇th-grader in the confessional
>>
>A follow-up anti-abortion bill in the legislative hopper in Ohio would, among other things, ban "drugs or devices used to prevent the implantation of a fertilized ovum,” which includes several popular forms of birth control.

WE'RE DOING IT
WE'RE BANNING CONDOMS SOON
RAW SEX IS MANDATORY
DO YOUR DUTY COMRADE! REPRODUCE FOR THE MOTHER COUNTRY!
>>
>>397948
Whether you're a troll or a legitimate pedophile, you're far too sociopathic to be allowed to live.
>>
>>397978
>Conservatives were the communist the whole time
Holy shit
>>
>>397987
>you're far too sociopathic to be allowed to live
the iron knees
>>
>>397991
beat me to it
>>
never been more ashamed to be an Ohioian then after this illogical bill was passed.
>>
So if roe v wade overturns, will republicans accept that men and women are not equal? And there is oppression?
>>
>>398002
>Conservatives
>Compromise
These are people who actively despise education or knowledge I don't have much hope in us breh
>>
You faggots could have stopped this by voting Cordray. Don't call it a grave, it's the future you chose.
>>
>>398029
Are you sure? They've been doing it for decades considering minorities and the poor use abortion the most
Hell I bet these dumbasses think the most common form of abortion is sticking a mallet in the vagina and crushing a baby or vacuuming them out before yeeting them into a wall
>>
Reminder that we have a lower abortion rate in the US than actual pro-life countries. Also reminder that abortion in the US has been at the lowest since roevwade. This is pretty much controlling female autonomy over anything else, I don't know how anyone could dispute this.
>>
>>398005
>>398002
Did I miss something? Are men allowed to get abortions now? No, we already make 11 year old boys who get raped pay child support.
This is equality. If Roe v. Wade gets overturned and women get a small taste of what life as a man is like, will they admit that women are privileged? Would feminists be desperate enough to get abortion back that they'd be willing to give men equality too? Or would feminists rather see abortion outlawed nationwide rather than see men have rights?

It's your choice feminists: Either we all get rights or none of us do. You keep asking for "equality" this is what it looks like
>>
>>398043
>child support is the same as raising the baby
you're a moron.
>>
>>397930
ban assault penises
>>
>>398043
The absolute fucking state of brainlets how do you even breathe
>>
>>398002
Men and women are not equal.
Women have an incredible power men do not
They are capable of bringing life into this world. The satisfaction of which most men can only reach after decades in their career.
And with great power, comes great responsibility.
>>
>>398067
So why aren't vasectomies illegal? What part of all men are equal did you forget? You think men meant men and not human? I can't wait till the dust settles and we can finally fuck over the constitution and get rid of slavery in prisons so we can't exploit and enforce suffering on all these poor brown people who are about to out breed you.
>>
>>398044
>>398065
Did I miss something? Is giving a child up for adoption illegal now? No, women are not being forced to raise the baby, and they don't even have to pay child support when they give it up for adoption.
And you never answered my last question: Are men allowed to get abortions in Ohio? Obviously you believe they are since you claim women are being oppressed and this law is sexist, but I would like a source that says only women are having their freedoms restricted.
>>
>>398079
Do you not think men directing a womans bodily anatomy is a form of oppression or no? Because that's you argument. You're saying a father should be able to decide a womans female autonomy without her consent. Is that the hill you're dying on or do you want to move your goalposts?
>>
Idk, seems gruesome until you remember that the alternative to forcing the girl to give birth is the option of literally killing a human being.

I dreally don’t see how the fact that a human is inside another person means that it doesn’t have a right to life. Or how the fact that a human comes from the seed of a man its mother doesn’t like means that it doesn’t have a right to life. Right to life seems like a more fundamental right than the right of a mother to not give birth or not be reminded of her rapist.

These Alabama and Ohio laws seem quite logical to be tbh.
>>
>>398081
suffer not the children of rapists to live
>>
>>398068
>So why aren't vasectomies illegal?
Is it illegal for women to get their tubes tied or go on the pill? No. For men, fatherhood begins at conception. This law makes men and women equal. You're just mad because you didn't think equality would actually mean the bad parts too. Your Women's Studies professor told you that men are privileged and you were dumb enough to believe her
>>
>>398067
>they are capable of bringing life into this world
I won’t deny that the ability to give birth is something good and special, but the amount of awe shown to women for this ability three days seems excessive to me. All women do feed then shit out the embryo a man activates by spraying it with his seed. There’s nothing really creative about it
>>
>>398081
The US has lower abortion rates then countries where abortion is illegal. By legalizing abortion all you're doing is making it more dangerous and deadly. You'll never get rid of abortion unless women are literally slaves, it will always happen. If you want to have it less and safe then the best way is to keep it legal provide better sex education/ contraceptives.
>>
>>398080
>Do you not think men directing a womans bodily anatomy is a form of oppression or no?
Is it just men? Funny, last I checked the majority of voters in Alabama are women.
>You're saying a father should be able to decide a womans female autonomy without her consent
that's not what I'm saying at all, but strawmanning is the only thing feminists can do since you know you have no argument.
I don't think either men or women should be forced to be parents. But if feminists are going to insist that males are not allowed to have reproductive rights, then enjoy equality. If you want me to care about this law, then you and other misandrists need to stop hating men long enough to support Legal Parental Surrender for men. Because as long as you man-haters are telling me that even male rape victims aren't allowed to have rights, you're just a fucking hypocrite for telling me that laws like this are oppressing women.

You're literally just getting pissed off because women are dealing with the shit that men always had to. Admit that "male privilege" is a myth and it sucks having as little control over your reproductive rights as men do.
>>
>>398086
*by making abortion illegal all you're doing is making it more dangerous and deadly.
>>
>>398089
Shit argument. If a woman hurts herself sticking a coat hanger up her vagina, it’s her own damn fault.

Also, the logic of this argument can be applied to alkmost anything that is evil:
>by making homicide illegal, you just make it more dangerous and deadly
>by making rape illegal, you make it more dangerous and deadly
>by making theft...
etc
>>
>>398087
You didn't bring up a single argument as a response, so I guess you are conceding that Fathers forcing the mother to have an abortion is oppression. Good, what a weak argument you have
>>
>>398095
You're purposefully being dishonest. Abortion will always happen, The US has a lower abortion rate than countries where abortion is illegal and the US rate has been going down, it's lower than when roevwade was enacted.

https://www.guttmacher.org/fact-sheet/induced-abortion-worldwide

You should know banning thinks don't stop it from happening.
>>
>>398095
You must be incredibly daft if you think you can compare the medical procedure of terminating a pregnancy is comparable to rape, homicide or theft. Lets consider the fact that all three of these crimes are inflicted by one party onto another and the issue of abortion is one party making decisions about their own body. Abortion is largely a medical issue whereas homicide and rape are not. Try again, brainlet.
>>
>>398087

>blahblahblah feminists blahblah misandrists blahblahblah man-haters

Its amazing watching one person try so incredibly hard to make themselves a victim whilst also making no sense whatsoever.
>>
>>398096
>Fathers forcing the mother to have an abortion
oh wow you caught me, I didn't bring up an argument defending the strawman! Now it's your turn, give me an argument why all women should die. You can't? AHA I WIN because you can't argue my imaginary strawman argument!

Now if you're ready to discuss things like a non-retard: Nobody is talking about fathers forcing mothers to have an abortion. We're talking about mothers raping a child and forcing that child to pay child support. I haven't seen an argument supporting that so I guess you concede that it is wrong to force rape victims to pay their rapists. Glad you admit that feminism is fucked up.

I believe that both men and women deserve reproductive rights and I don't think that 11-year-old rape victims REGARDLESS OF THEIR GENDER should be punished. That of course makes me an anti-feminist. Do I think that this girl should be denied an abortion? Of course not. But feminists have to make a choice: Either women AND MEN have rights, or none of us do. I would prefer we both have rights, but I'm done playing feminists' game. If you want women to have rights you have to be willing to give men those same rights. I know you hate men, I know you don't think men are human, but that's the trade you have to make. You decide.
>>
>>398100
>blah blah I hate men but instead of admitting it I will just memetext
it's amazing watching a bigot try so incredibly hard to meme away their bigotry.
Nobody is fooled. We know you hate men, we know all feminists hate men, and no amount of memetext will change that.
>>
>>398102
Is screeching "feminist" and "misandrist" the only argument you've drummed up for this conversation? Let me know now so I can tap out of this one-trick pony show before it gets even sadder.

>Nobody is fooled. We know you hate men.
I have a hard time believing that I'm the first person to tell you this but I think its just that women don't like you, personally. They seem to get along with men that aren't you pretty swell.
>>
>>398102
You came here dead set on believing that anyway though lol. You never had the intention of arguing in good faith, and I'm willing to bet real actual money that you've never spoken to a feminist in real life outside of what /pol/ strawmans at you from Tumblr posts made by QueerFemGODDESSx6969. Take your hurt feelings and go.
>>
>>398097
>You should know banning thinks don't stop it from happening
Again, that’s true of literally any crime. That doesn’t mean the crime isn’t a bad thing to commit.
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>>398105
Is ignoring the actual points I've made the only response you have?
Misandrists get along with men who hate themselves. Congratulations for pointing that out. Personally, I don't think that it's okay to rape 11 year old boys, but you're entitled to your opinion Ms. Man-hater.
>>398107
I've spoken to more feminists than you. I've read more feminist literature than you. Does QueerFemGODDESSx6969 write US law? Does QueerFemGODDESSx6969 pour millions of dollars into lobbying? Does QueerFemGODDESSx6969 teach Women's Studies classes? Does QueerFemGODDESSx6969 hold political office? Does QueerFemGODDESSx6969 run feminist websites?

What about literally right here ITT where you and other feminists continue claiming that equality is oppressive? There are multiple feminists in this thread whining about women having the same rights as men, are you and the other feminists QueerFemGODDESSx6969?

Keep trying to shame me because you know you have no argument. Shame doesn't work in an anonymous forum, and without shame you have no way to defend your misandry. Without shame you can't convince men that 11-year-old boys should get raped and pay child support. Without shame you can't convince us that 11-year-old girls deserve rights but 11-year-old boys do not.

We (egalitarians) support rights for girls AND boys. And without shame you can't argue against us.
>>
>>398110
>Is ignoring the actual points I've made the only response you have?
You've made no points. You've accused people of being feminists and misandrists and done nothing but personally attack.

>you're entitled to your opinion Ms. Man-hater.
More of that patented autism of yours. I'm a dude. Like the other anon said, take your hurt feelings and go. You're just embarrassing yourself.
>>
>>398099
>Lets consider the fact that all three of these crimes are inflicted by one party onto another and the issue of abortion is one party making decisions about their own body
That’s unbelievably dense of you to say. The primary objective of abortion is literally to kill a human fetus. It is absolutely and undeniably the act of one party against another.

>abortion is largely a medical issue
Calling something a “medical issue” doesn’t make it not evil. Ill give you ten seconds to think of something evil people have justified in the past by coming up with pretty or scientific names for it.

Fuck. There are actually coherent arguments for abortion, but instead of using those, you resort to shitty euphemisms. It’s amazing how far you’ve managed to fit your head into your ass
>>
>>398110
Hey anon, you know that 11 year old girl you're talking about? After she has that baby, the father is going to take custody of it and she'll have to pay child support.
>>
>>398112
I've accused people who defend misandry of being misandrists. I'm right.

> I'm a dude
My apologies, *Mister* Man-hater. It doesn't matter what gender you are, what matters is you think an 11-year-old boy who gets raped shouldn't have any rights.
>You're just embarrassing yourself
Some people think gender equality is embarassing, but believe it or not a lot of people think being a bigot is embarassing. Some of us think it's embarassing to tell boy rape victims to pay child support. Some of us think it's embarassing to cry about "misogyny" when women and men have the same lack of rights.
>>
>>398099
>medical procedure
The fact that a doctor is doing the murdering doesn’t make it not murder you total ignoramus
>>
>>398117
You know there are women rape victims who have to pay child support too, right? You're entire argument is actually equal in reality
>>
>>398116
>After she has that baby, the father is going to take custody of it and she'll have to pay child support.
that's not true. Even non-rapist fathers have a hard time getting full custody (thanks to feminists like you).
I also would prefer that 11-year-old rape victims of any gender not have to pay child support. But that's what makes me an anti-feminist, because I support ALL rape victims. While you and the other misandrists in this thread are suddenly aghast that women are getting some of that "equality" you pretended you wanted.
>>
>>398119
>You know there are women rape victims who have to pay child support too, right?
no there aren't, there are barely consensual mothers who have to pay child support.
>actually equal in reality
what I want is actual equality. Specifically I think that both men and women should have reproductive rights. Whereas you and the other misandrists ITT believe that only women should have reproductive rights.
>>398118
to flip sides, it's not murder. The woman is just not using her body to support another. Abortion should be legal, but legal parental surrender should also be legal. Feminists aren't wrong about abortion they're just hypocrites for wanting male rape victims to pay child support while throwing a fit over this.
>>
>>398120
>whataboutism
Boo hoo go cry your incel tears into you sex pillow
Not that other guy but holy shit what a crybaby.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DMB785atM7k
>>
>>398123
>be misandrist
>get BTFO in an argument yet again
>"MUH INCELS! MUH CRYBABY!"
every time. You literally think having compassion for an 11 year old boy raped by a grown woman makes me a crybaby incel. Do some self-reflecting on how far feminism has warped your mind.
>>
>>398121
>The woman is just not using her body to support another
This is the result of abortion. However, the means to this result are murder. You can’t say that a woman is “just” freeing her body when that freedom is contingent on something evil.
>>
>>398127
forcing a child to bear the child of a rapist is evil in and of itself
>>
>>398130
Yes, it’s “evil” in the sense that it’s something bad that is happening, but it’s not “evil” in the sense that the person doing the forcing is doing something morally wrong.

Yes, it is bad that a girl have to give birth to a child she didn’t ask for. However, this evil is far outweighed by the evil of killing the human being inside of her. The right to life is more fundamental than the right to unceasing bodily autonomy. Therefore, one allows a greater evil by allowing the woman to abort than he does by allowing the woman to be forced not to. The latter option ought to be chosen every time.
>>
>>398132
People like you are why I would support your mother getting an abortion.you deserve to get scrambled.
>>
>>398130
>>398132
Here’s an even more shallow way to look at it:
What’s a greater evil? An innocent child being killed (the permanent destruction of one human being) or a woman having to bear a child and give birth (the temporary inconveniencing of one human being)? Obviously the former. (This, of course, does not apply when the life of the mother is in immediate danger. In such a case, you’re weighing two equally grave evils: the death of one human being vs the death of another)
>>
>>398134
I would be happy to respond to any actual responses to my arguments. If you could point out any logically fallacies or flaws in my premises I would take note.

Though it seems that you’re incapable of logical argument, since you resort to personal attacks when I poke holes in your flimsy position.
>>
>>398132
>the person doing the forcing is doing something morally wrong.
yes, it is.

>Yes, it is bad that a girl have to give birth to a child she didn’t ask for. However, this evil is far outweighed by the evil of killing the human being inside of her.
it is not. forcing a girl to bear the child of a rapist is worse than murder.

>the temporary inconveniencing of one human being
taking away the control of a woman's right to choose where her genetic material is not a "temporary inconvenience." it is an eternal crime which persists as long as her lineage persists, as she has brought a rapist's child into the world.
>>
>>398143
>forcing a girl to bear the child of a rapist is worse than murder
Please explain to me. What exactly makes it worse?

>it’s an eternal crime which persists as long as her lineage persists, as she brought a rapist’s child into the world
This is actually an interesting position. Much better than the tired and flimsy “bodily autonomy” arguments. Can you explain why 1. The child deserves to die because of the crimes of his father and 2. The crimes of one man somehow taint all the offspring of his illegitimate son and 3. If this is true, why the evil of this tainted bloodline is greater than the evil of killing a human being?
>>
>>398147
a woman who bears a child, has a duty, as a mother, to care for that child and to love that child.
to force a woman to do so, for the child of a rapist, is enslaving her to her rapist for life.

>1. The child deserves to die because of the crimes of his father
the father does not deserve to be rewarded for his rape. the mother does not deserve to bear a rapist's child. somebody's not going to get what they deserve.

>2. The crimes of one man somehow taint all the offspring of his illegitimate son
>3. If this is true, why the evil of this tainted bloodline is greater than the evil of killing a human being?
i would argue that evil begets evil and that rewarding evil upsets the moral calculus of society more than murder does. there's a judgment call here. if you're a religious person (which i'm not certain of right now) there's a quote about it. "For I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the sons to the third and fourth generation of those who hate Me."

>This is actually an interesting position.
i personally don't find fetuses to have the full rights of people or that aborting them is murder but for the purposes of this particular assumption i can concede it somewhat.
>>
>>398147
>What exactly makes it worse?
It's bait. Anon is tricking you.
>>
>>398147
I'm curious, whats your moral stance on miscarriages? It happenings all the time, I think around 50% of pregnancies.
>>
>>398150
the ability of an individual to choose where his lineage goes is one of the single things that any society must guarantee if it is to be any sort of society at all.
>>
>>398137
Your viewpoint is only applicable if you consider an unconscious, insentient collection of biological matter a human being. The obvious argument being that living, breathing, conscious human beings who have life should not be forced into decisions with their own body for the sake of satiating the possible life of someone who isn't currently a living, breathing entity and a group of people's collective opinions of person-hood.
>>
>>398152
No, it's not.
>>
>>398149
>i personally don't find fetuses to have the full rights of people or that aborting them is murder but for the purposes of this particular assumption i can concede it somewhat.
Fair enough. I'm conceding certain utilitarian doctrines for the sake of argument. People have to have some common ground to stand on if they're going to have a discussion in the first place.

Ok, it seems like your response to 2. and 3. is an expansion and clarification to your response to 1., so I'm going to treat them both as one response.

>rewarding evil upsets the moral calculus of society more than murder does
I'll assume this is true. However, you say yourself that "somebody's not going to get what they deserve (whether the child is aborted or forced to live)." A corollary of this is that, whether the child is aborted or forced to live, you are rewarding evil. If the child is forced to live, you reward the evil of the father's rape by giving him a son. If you abort the child, you reward the evil of murder by giving the mother and father what they deserve.

I've conceded that it's bad to reward evil, but now the question that arises is "which evil is worse to reward, the evil of rape or the evil of murder?" As I'm sure you can see, we're back at square one.
>>
>>398151
exactly the same as my stance of death due to sickness, old age, freak accidents, etc.. It happens to humans regularly and inevitably, but that doesn't make it ok for someone to deliberately and directly cause the death of such humans.
>>
>>398149
>>398160
btw i'm the anon with whom you've been arguing; other responses are from other people.
>>
>>398160
Evil doesn’t exist in hypotheticals. A fetus is a hypothetical. Shit a baby less than a year old is a hypothetical. Evil would be for example the meat industry I slaving animals for 5 years for slaughter while separating them from any type of social contact.

A fetus has no cognition. “Killing” it is not a real murder because it has no place in the social fabric ie familial ties and loved ones outside of sperg religious beliefs or a sperged out father who wants to control the woman’s body.

You can’t railroad a discussion on morality when the fetus itself is operating in a hypothetical and unchained to any corporeal status in society. Infanticide is a common practice and it’s notably barbaric, yet even that is a disregard for the utilitarianism.

Removing an unborn grouping of cells that has no cognition is devoid of any moral or ethical penalty because it is a hypothetical.

If I refuse to put my giant load inside my girlfriend tonight, I’m literally guilty of the same hypothetical abortion that Christians are.

To not see this argument as valid means you are chained to a metaphysical unreality. Pro life means you are a Christ fantasy LARPer mandating the social control of a hypothetical life that has no inherent right to being born outside of fake beliefs.

I’m right. And you all know it.
>>
>/pol/tards literally have no defense other than "hurr durr he was some brown guy so you libs should be happy"
Fetuses are not equal to fully-functioning humans
>>
>>398164
I don't think you're the original anon I was talking to (you don't seem as intelligent), but our discussion was making progress. You've now taken it in a totally different direction. I'll respond but treat this as a separate discussion than the previous one about the consequences of rewarding evil.

You give two distinct reasons why a fetus is a "hypothetical:"

1.A fetus has no cognition
2.it has no place in the social fabric ie familial ties and loved ones...

In response to point 1:
There are things with no cognition which we still consider wrong to kill, namely sleeping people (who aren't dreaming) and brain- dead people with the potential to be brought back to life. It is considered a crime to kill either of these types of person, even though each is a "hypothetical" insofar as he does not have cognition a the moment but will at some point in the future.

In response to point 2:
There are many individuals who have no place in the social fabric, ie homeless people, those who have lost all friends and family and live alone, spergs who decide to live in the woods by themselves, etc. These people are not ok to kill.

So, it seems like neither 1. not having cognition or 2. not being part of the "social fabric" are sufficient to justify the killing of a human organism. You're either going to have to qualify either of these two reasons or come up with a third.
>>
>>398172
>brain-dead people
>the potential to be brought back to life
Pick one and only one. A brain-dead person cannot be brought back because brain-dead isn't an exaggeration. In fact there's currently an ongoing debate over whether it's ethical to keep such people alive. You also have things like DNR orders because people would rather die than succumb to this state.

>Sleep
A sleeping person is internally self-sufficient. They will wake up without any help in a few hours, or they will wake up in response to stimuli. A fetus is not in the same situation; it requires constant support from the mother's body to continue to exist.
>>
>>398084
>*Tips fedora*
>>
>>398172
I’m definitely a different poster. What i said is canon. You mental midgets conflating the definition of life to masturbate your prepubescent notions of ethics and morality aren’t worth a dedicated protraction of my time.

You’re wrong. Fuck off christfags.

>>>/pol/
>>
>>398164
>If I refuse to put my giant load inside my girlfriend tonight, I’m literally guilty of the same hypothetical abortion that Christians are
Even if you're right that fetuses have no human value and it's ok to kill them, the fact that you can't tell the difference between ending the existence of a non- human organism and deciding not to do something in the first place which would potentially create such an organism shows that you're maximally retarded
>>
>>398177
respond to the content my arguments or fuck off with your mindless repetition of your tired and flimsy beliefs. you sound like a fucking parrot
>>
>>398164
>Killing” it is not a real murder because it has no place in the social fabric ie familial ties and loved ones outside of sperg religious beliefs or a sperged out father who wants to control the woman’s body.
With all these threads about homeless people in Seattle it sounds like you found the solution.
It wouldn't be real murder to round them until in concentration camps and kill them. Well that was easy
>>
>>398172
I was once given a book by a christian that tried to disprove evolution. Your method and invocation of pointless philosophical ballyhoo instantly reminded me of the individual in question. Anyone with half a brain could very easily use the same sidestepping debate techniques you have displayed. You lack impact when you obfuscate/shift the goalposts as pol says. What you really need to say and believe in without trying to hide it is this: life begins at conception and I won’t hear anything else.

Life actually began at the Big Bang. And the gods should have aborted that fetus too knowing I’d be sitting here having the most retarded debate of my life about cells in a body being destroyed.

God damn.
>>
>>398182
I’m not against indirect murder, either. If a homeless person past 40 continues their life of crime kill them. I am an atheist.
>>
Why are christfucks so dumb. Don't force your stupidass religion on me assholes.
>>
>>398185
based hawking poster. you have my axe
>>
>>398175
>A brain-dead person cannot be brought back because brain-dead isn't an exaggeration
Ok you're right, I was being flimsy with my terminology. Replace "brain dead" with "extremely low brain function" and my argument stands, however.

>In fact there's currently an ongoing debate over whether it's ethical to keep such people alive
obviously it's retarded to keep a vegetable alive for the sake of keeping his heart beating. my argument only applies to people with a reasonable and immediate chance of being resuscitated.

>DNR orders
orders carried given by a doctor at the request of a patient who believes he will have little chance of being revived. Completely different from abortion, which is not requested by the one being killed, is an active killing rather than a passive letting- die, and is performed (usually) on a person who is likely to gain healthy brain function in the future

>A sleeping person is internally self-sufficient. A fetus is not in the same situation; it requires constant support from the mother's body to continue to exist.
Can you explain why a self sufficient noncognitive human is not ok to kill while a non- self sufficient noncognitive person is ok to kill? it seems like an arbitrary distinction to me. Someone in, say, an iron lung requires constant support in the same way a fetus does, but it's not ok to murder him
>>
God is dead.

Ashurbanipal has returned.

We will dine on the unborn fetuses of the religious right as we burn down their villages.

I HAD THE SANCTUARIES OF THE LAND ELAM UTTERLY DESTROYED AND I COUNTED ITS GODS AND ITS GODDESSES AS GHOSTS I DESTROYED AND DEVASTATED THE TOMBS OF THEIR EARLIER AND LATER KINGS I TOOK THEIR BONES TO ASSYRIA I PREVENTED THEIR GHOSTS FROM SLEEPING AND DEPRIVED THEM OF FUNERARY-OFFERINGS AND LIBATIONS ON A MARCH OF ONE MONTH AND TWENTY-FIVE DAYS I DEVASTATED THE DISTRICTS OF THE LAND ELAM AND SCATTERED SALT AND CRESS OVER THEM AS FOR THE REST OF THE PEOPLE THOSE STILL ALIVE I MYSELF NOW LAID FLAT THOSE PEOPLE THERE AS A FUNERARY-OFFERING I FED THEIR DISMEMBERED FLESH TO DOGS PIGS VULTURES EAGLES BIRDS OF THE HEAVENS AND FISH OF THE APSU THE NOBLES AND ELDERS OF THE CITY CAME OUT TO ME TO SAVE THEIR LIVES THEY SEIZED MY FEET AND SAID IF IT PLEASES YOU KILL IF IT PLEASES YOU SPARE IF IT PLEASES YOU DO WHAT YOU WILL IN STRIFE AND CONFLICT I BESIEGED AND CONQUERED THE CITY I FELLED 3000 OF THEIR FIGHTING MEN WITH THE SWORD I CAPTURED MANY TROOPS ALIVE I CUT OFF OF SOME THEIR ARMS AND HANDS I CUT OFF OF OTHERS THEIR NOSES EARS AND EXTREMITIES I GOUGED OUT THE EYES OF MANY TROOPS I MADE ONE PILE OF THE LIVING AND ONE OF HEADS I HUNG THEIR HEADS ON TREES AROUND THE CITY I FELLED 50 OF THEIR FIGHTING MEN WITH THE SWORD BURNT 200 CAPTIVES FROM THEM AND DEFEATED IN A BATTLE ON THE PLAIN 332 TROOPS WITH THEIR BLOOD I DYED THE MOUNTAIN RED LIKE RED WOOL AND THE REST OF THEM THE RAVINES AND TORRENTS OF THE MOUNTAIN SWALLOWED I CARRIED OFF CAPTIVES AND POSSESSIONS FROM THEM I CUT OFF THE HEADS OF THEIR FIGHTERS AND BUILT THEREWITH A TOWER BEFORE THEIR CITY I BURNT THEIR ADOLESCENTS I FLAYED AS MANY NOBLES AS HAD REBELLED AGAINST ME AND DRAPED THEIR SKINS OVER THE PILE OF CORPSES SOME I SPREAD OUT WITHIN THE PILE SOME I ERECTED ON STAKES UPON THE PILE I FLAYED MANY RIGHT THROUGH MY LAND AND DRAPED THEIR SKINS OVER THE WALLS.
>>
>>398183
>sidestepping debate techniques
I'm not sidestepping anything. I'm responding directly to the arguments of the people with whom I'm debating.

>You lack impact when you obfuscate/shift the goalposts
Again, I'm not obfuscating anything. In fact, I'm directly asking my opponents to clarify their positions.

>life begins at conception and I won’t hear anything else
I've heard quite a lot of other things since I began this debate, actually.

Your description of my debate tactics don't match up with my actual debate tactics. You're accusing me of fallacies I'm not actually making.
>>
>>398185
*tips fedora*
>>
>>398183
Also, I'll say again: if my arguments are really so flimsy then disprove them. What you're doing now is asserting "your arguments are weak because I say so. I'm actually right because my position is just obviously right."

Now, it would make sense for you to step out of an argument in frustration if I were using poor debate tactics such as mindlessly repeating myself, not responding directly to any of your points, repeatedly using formal logical fallacies, etc. However, I've done none of those things. The tactics I'm using, while simple, are often found in healthy debate. There's nothing fallacious about reduction to the absurd, asking an opponent to explain the reasons behind his assumptions, giving counter examples, etc. Look in any intro to logic textbook and these things will be listed as legitimate tactics.

You made an assertion. I responded directly to the axioms of that assertion. You get annoyed and tell me that I'm stupid and that you're right. I know you think you sound smart right now, but you should really understand that, to the unbiased observer, you're the one who looks like a sperg who can't handle a real discussion.
>>
>>398191
Oh okay, you posted this meme. You got me. Guess you can force your stupid-ass religion on me now. Lmfao
>>
>>398197
based and assimilated
>>
>>397999
Same. Fuck this shithole.
>>
>>398191
Even pat robertson

***PAT*** ***ROBERTSON***

said these laws are going too far.
>>
>>398185
As long as you don't force a scalpel into the body of your unborn child
>>
>>398201
>>>/pol/ >>>/r9k/

enjoy your stay, incel.

Abortion is a right.
>>
>>398204
>enjoy your stay, incel.
>Abortion is a right.
No it's not.
And I can smell your salty vagoo from here. Stop arguing with your holes by proxy
>>
>>398185
They've been trying to implement sharia law in the country for the past three centuries they're not going to stop either
>>
>>398284
>No it's not
That's a big think right there.
>>
>>398204
>Abortion is a right.
Not in Ohio, apparently.
>>
>>397919

Using children to explot adults is child exploitation, just sayin'.
>>
>>398204
Where is that right enumerated? On what principal?
>>
I'm on the fence with abortion but wouldn't adoption be a less wasteful option ?
>>
This is a bunch of nonsense and everyone knows it. It's not about abortion, it's about LEGAL abortion. Baptist preachers have been knocking up teen girls forever, and finding friendly doctors to take care of the bastard before it's born. It's as common as a Catholic priest buttfucking an altar boy.

They simply want to make it easier to lock up poor blacks who try to do the same thing. Anyone can see this.
>>
>>397919
Pro-lifers should be deported to Saudi Arabia. More unwanted children running around only increases crime, leftist voter counts, and the collective social burden.
>>
>>398306
Anon you do realize 9 months of child birth is a life changing series of events that alter your biological and psychological makeup. It's a difficult, painful, involved process. Also our foster system is fucking hot trash as is every single social program that deals with orphans, unwanted children, and the abused. All of them are underfunded, undermanned, and outdated. Just like our immigration process. There's profit to be made in making these things difficult.

This bill is literally here to do two things keep the grease of our prison economy moving. Poor people use birth control the most now it's time to ban them and keep the poor people popping out. Funny thing is they'll always talk about some shit about taking responsibilities for your actions whenever you challenge there transparent pro life stances and say some shit about morality. Meanwhile they're super okay with subjecting children to suffering just so "irresponsibility isn't rewarded." Or some equally fedora tipping shit.

Also to challenge roe v wade because the bible thumpers have been completely utterly assblasted about that for decades
>>
>>398303
>Roe v. Wade, 410 U.S. 113 (1973),[1] was a landmark decision of the U.S. Supreme Court in which the Court ruled that the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution provides a fundamental "right to privacy" that protects a pregnant woman's liberty to choose whether or not to have an abortion, while also ruling that this right is not absolute and must be balanced against the government's interests in protecting women's health and protecting prenatal life.[2][3]

The goddamn first sentence of roe vs wade’s article.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roe_v._Wade
>>
>>398312
I know it's not a perfect system and I do lean towards pro choice but with some reservations
>>
>>398316
stop the reservations. Its not your body. Period. Women make babies, men don't. If you want to suddenly take on the role getting pregnant and pushing a baby out of your asshole, then you get to decide.

inb4 tranny. I'm not a feminist. I don't believe in the METOO movement. I think women are power hungry animals. But its their body. Period. God doesn't exist, and unconscious cells aren't people. Period. There requires no further testimony.
>>
>>398316
I used to have reservations until I honestly just stopped caring. Like how can I force a family or kids on someone when they don't want them and honestly shouldn't even have them. The first being the biggest fucking factor. Don't force someone to take care of kids. Let that shit be 100% voluntarily and out of love. We developed this technology and progressed as a society for a reason. Hell abortions were fucking trending down. I am also incredibly reluctant to have the government mandate your body in any cases. Hell I despise Anti-Vaxxers with all my being but if you don't want a vaccine that's fine but fuck off and stop trying to force your kids around other kids tho.

I'd rather die before I see the day the courts tell my sisters or my niece or my mother that they HAVE to give birth to a baby they don't want or can take care of give birth to a fucking rape baby. And fuck the assholes trying and blatantly making this a religious thing. Same assholes who complain about Muslim countries and sharia law shit turn around and do this. For fucks sake
>>
>>398325
>God doesn't exist, and unconscious cells aren't people. Period. There requires no further testimony.
>I’m right, you’re wrong, I don’t need to listen to you, lalalalalala
This is exactly why the pro- abortion movement is suffering so many setbacks in the United States. No one can justify their blind faith in the dogmas of bodily autonomy and fetal non- personhood. If you were really so obviously in the right, you would be able to easily provide proofs for your beliefs. But you can’t.
>>
>>398331
Of course I can. You just won't listen because you believe in an unprovable deity that has been disproven through logic proofs time and time again solely through academic deconstruction of the canon.

Christfags aren't even worth the effort of argument because they simply can't wrap their minds around atheism. You are blind and as such, have no use for sight.
>>
>implying anyone in this thread actually gives a shit about snot nosed babies

Abortion or not, babies should be birthed into a deep hole and their first breath should fill their lungs with dirt.
>>
>>398108
Til smoking weed is inherently bad and worthy of being a criminal offense.
>>
>Its a "nobody actually read the article" thread
>Its a "opinion article thats up for 24 hours" thread
May as well be a clip show at this point with how lazy theyre getting
>>
>>398339
Not in alabama, who just legalized weed the same week they took over the rights to a womans body.

The first amendment has a clause containing "the seperation of church and state" and as such should preclude any anti-abortion law as unconstitutional.

Yet, here we are. Living amongst cave men who fuck their sisters and cousins but want to control the womb of women.

Worry about yourself you dumb orangeniggers.
>>
>>398340
>>398339
>>398338
quoted wrong number. you get it though. fucking christ faggots.
>>
>>398340
Dont @ me, Im not rolling around in the mud with retards
>>
>>398085
Lets just ignore the 9 months of development and physiological changes. Women just shit out babies nbd
>>
>>398081
Since when has anyone been against killing people? Everyone wants someone dead. Whats the big deal if its a worthless baby?
>>
>>398335
>ad hominem attack
>another ad hominem attack
>straw man assumption
You have no idea what I believe. You have no idea how I will respond if you give your reasons for your beliefs to me. If you think that it’s impossible to have a real discussion with anyone who might disagree with you on this issue, then you’ve created some straw man caricature of your opponents in your head to justify your not actually being able to come up with coherent arguments.

Give your reasons. I’ll respond reasonably
>>
Babies honestly deserve death, as do the mongoloids that slap their flesh together indiscriminantly.
>>
>>398335
>ou believe in an unprovable deity that has been disproven through logic proofs time and time again solely through academic deconstruction of the canon.
Again, I’ve given you no reason to believe that I’m a Christian. I will say however that if you think the history of Philosophy of God since the Middle Ages has been nothing but the dismantling of every argument for the existence of God, you haven’t been following the development of philosophy very closely. The existence of God is and always has been a hot topic of debate among philosophers. If you think the debate has been one sided then you’re clearly only paying attention to the arguments you personally like.
>>
Brb generating contracts for people to fill out prior to banging to determine the legal reaponsibility of the concieved child.

#Child support starts at conception.
>>
>>398085
I sincerly hope you never get anyone pregnant
>>
>>398354
I wonder If the Incels and MGTOWs supporting this know that more of their precious men are going to end up paying a lot more in child support
>>
>>398068
Because female vasectomies also aren't illegal?
>>
>>398325
I'm not coming at this from a god angle I just think it's kind of a waste considering Thier are parents who can't have a child
>>
>>398389
Why let a baby grow in you for nine months just to give it away? All that investment for somebody else?
>>
>>398357
Neither of those groups are getting laid.
>>
>>398400
Seems fair though you get rid of unwanted child and couple that wants child gets child
>>
>>398359
I thought we cared about birth rates and children being born? Why is that birth control fine and people who do that get to be irresponsible? Why half ass this?
>>
>>397919
ITT: roasties arguing with holes by proxy
>>
>>398325
>stop the reservations. Its not your body. Period. Women make babies, men don't.
When women learn how to make a baby without a man's sperm, they can make their own decisions.
>>
>>398415
BAM!
>>
>>398406
You still waste money and time raising a kid. No beer, no junk food, no nothing. All those hoops to jump through and for no personal reward
>>
>>398421
Why can't you have junk food while pregnant?
>>
>>398422
The risk of unhealthy babies. Well, maybe I phrased that wrong. Let me rephrase it as “food as healthy as possible”. Babies need that folate and shit.
>>
>>398421
If you're just going to give it up for adoption then why would you bother giving up drugs and alcohol?
I mean it's not like the adoption agency is going to not accept crack addicted babies with fetal alcohol syndrome
Hell, use the pregnancy as a time to unwind a little bit, all your hormones are going crazy and shit, you got to let loose just a little bit
>>
>>398421
This reminds me of divorce vs murdering your wife.
Divorce takes time and money. Legal bills and so on. But we don't let people go King Henry, because although it's convenient you're still murdering someone else. And just because they can't defend themselves doesn't mean it's right
https://youtu.be/NMlL26oEbls
https://youtu.be/WyDdjsZut8Y
Here's what they say when they are given a chance to defend themself
>>
You were all brought into this world by ancestors who gave birth in their pubescence, don't forget. It's in your genetics. It's inside of you.

When did this become an immoral practice? Only in the last 40 years. Morality is universal? You're lying to yourself.
>>
>>398423
Well. You can eat junk food. Our ancestors didn't eat folates and your lineage turned out fine
>>
>>398081
Forcing an 11 year old girl who is barely pubescent to give birth to a baby close to the size of her trunk is risking both the girl AND her child's life. How long shall you keep bleating about the sanctity of life when underage mothers die with, and because of, their children all the time?
>>
>>398081
Because a victim of rape, especially during childhood, managing to recover and have a happy and fulfilling life is already difficult enough, it's nearly impossible after having a baby forced onto them.
>>
>>398035
>yeet
you have to be 18 to post here
>>
>>398137
>an innocent child being killed
Newsflash; the 'innocent child' is already dead at this point, after being traumatically raped and forced to become a mother at an unnaturally young age, despoiling her life forever. 'Temporary inconvenience' my ass. Also, I would love to see your reasoning as to why an 11 year old child wouldn't be immediately endangered by giving birth to a baby weighing 6% of her own body-weight. You anti-abortionists are always suspiciously eager to discount the value of life when it's the mother's in question.
>>
>>398147
>tired and flimsy 'bodily autonomy' arguments
If a woman could achieve complete control over your sperm, I bet you'd be screaming blue murder over becoming their stud, the same way any sane woman would be screaming about becoming someone's breeding mare.
>>
>>398429
I'm an "abortion attempt survivor" and I couldn't give less of a shit. If I had actually been aborted then I wouldn't be here to be upset about it in the first place, so what's it matter? I also wouldn't be alive if my mom didn't meet my dad by random chance, so should I also have an emotional talk with her about how I wouldn't have existed if she had made a slightly different decision 23 years ago?
>>
So is this how they plan on fighting poor people not wanting to have kids because of being poor, the shit economy, shit housing, and shittier student debt and loans?
>>
>>398400
Consider that not all 'investments' end up benefitting the investor.
>>
Men don't have any rights, considering you can be sexually mutilated against your will and it's perfectly legal.
>>
>>397940
I guess neither is god or justice for rape victims
>>
>>398087
>Is it just men? Funny, last I checked the majority of voters in Alabama are women.
I'm pretty sure this wasn't voted in by a constituency.

I get ironic shit posting but there's a limit and we're well beyond it.
>>
>>398424
Why be pregnant at all? I can do crack as freely as I did without having to carry around a baby. Those guys are heavy. And besides, there are serious physiological changes that occur during pregnancy. So why bother with those effects at all, no less birth a crack baby for adoption by someone else.
>>
>>398110
>11-year-old boys should get raped and pay child support
Anon, 11 year old boys, rather all boys, can't make babies. Wtf are you even saying?
>>
>>398457
keeps them in their place
>>
>>398455
Because you would be dead.
Your life would have been snuffed out after it had already been conceived, and you became an new human being with a new DNA and your own heart beat
>>
>>398429
I mean, divorce is a legal procedure. you guys can separate and see other people for all I care. But in the eyes of the law you two are still partners. Divorce severs the legal ties, so it must be mandated.

And even if you murder your wife, she’s still married to you :^). Again, you can easily date other people, but you can’t legally marry the unless you divorce your old wife.
>>
>>398434
Yeah you’re right. Nothing stopping you from doing so. But for moms planning o children, whatever they eat the baby eats too. It’s in their interest to eat well to maximize the chances of healthy children.
>>
>>398473
Can’t die if you never existed. Also
>Your life would have been snuffed out after it had already been conceived
>conception equals human life
What did he mean by this?
>>
>>398458
So why bother sinking in the investment cost?
>>
>>398471
They can make babies, they just can’t carry them. But as the mother is responsible for carrying the baby, the father is responsible for impregnating her. His post then applies
>>
>>398454
nah I wouldnt
>>
>>398471
it's not very common, but since some girls are fertile under 8 (from the various cases of ultra-early motherhood to prove it, no less) i'm pretty sure fertile 11-yo boys aren't impossible
>>
>>398351
>implying philosophy is science

I've got news for you.

>>398389
There are plenty of ways to have a planned adoption or lab baby that isn't the product of taking over a womans choice to kill a pile of unconscious cells.

>>398415
incel. nice bait tho.

Same faggots who think prostitution should be legalized because its safer for women can't see the logic that women will abort their unwanted fetuses by any means necessary and make believe fantasy laws from God LARPers aren't going to stop them.
>>
>>398473
The point is that, from my perspective, it's literally no different than if my parents had never met and I was never conceived to begin with.
>>
>>398500
Every time you don't rape the nearest woman to you, you are aborting a hypothetical fetus.

God will strike you down if you don't start raping 11 year old girls ASAP.
>>
>>398490
When has an 11 year old boy been raped and had to pay cud support?
>>
TBH the inverse of this would be court mandated abortions if the father can prove the baby was conceived during attempted birth control. Call it the Not My Miracle Act.

Now THAT is progress.
>>
>>398482
Okay. Definitionally. When does life begin if not conception?
>>
>>398452
>Newsflash; the 'innocent child' is already dead at this point, after being traumatically raped and forced to become a mother at an unnaturally young age
didn’t your mother ever tell you that two wrongs dont make a right?

>I would love to see your reasoning as to why an 11 year old child wouldn't be immediately endangered by giving birth to a baby weighing 6% of her own body-weight.
I have no reason to believe that the danger is immediate and it’s certainky not inevitable. What % of eleven year old pregnant girls die giving birth?
>>
>>398511
Sperm and eggs are all life. Although are you trying to say "when does this tissue matter register as human?"
>>
>>398504
The Pro-Lifers entire handbook is to construct constant strawmen and talk about hypothetical extremes and outliers. Also muh religion and feels
>>
>>398511
Life begins at the earliest memory for the actual sentient being.

Obviously aborting pre-memory forming post birth entities is wrong because they have taken root in peoples lives and there were be severe emotional trauma from infanticide in the moral fabric of society.

Something incapable of knowing it ever existed because its a grouping of cells isn't sentient. Its a hypothetical. A potential the mother gets to decide , not some christnigger.
>>
>>398507
BASED AND REDPILLED
>>
>>398511
i'm of the rather uncommon opinion that only the individual matters, not the bunch of cells they are made of - 'people' instead of 'life'
else why would killing a fetus be worse than killing pets or plants? they're all alive
>>
>>398187
>my argument only applies to people with a reasonable and immediate chance of being resuscitated.

So this applies to a fetus as well then? It can't survive without the life support system of the mom, why can't she determine that she doesn't want to support that life up to a point?
>>
>>398512
>I have no reason to believe that the danger is immediate and it’s certainky not inevitable
Not him
You fucking Nigger what?
You do realize there's multiple reasons we have age of consent right?

Adolescent pregnancy remains a major contributor to maternal and child mortality, and to intergenerational cycles of ill-health and poverty. Pregnancy and childbirth complications are the leading cause of death among 15 to 19 year-old girls globally, with low and middle-income countries accounting for 99% of global maternal deaths of women ages 15 to 49 years (4), (12).

Adolescent mothers (ages 10 to 19 years) face higher risks of eclampsia, puerperal endometritis, and systemic infections than women aged 20 to 24 years (5). Additionally, some 3.9 million unsafe abortions among girls aged 15 to 19 years occur each year, contributing to maternal mortality and lasting health problems (1). Furthermore, the emotional, psychological and social needs of pregnant adolescent girls can be greater than those of other women.

Early childbearing can increase risks for newborns, as well as young mothers. In low- and middle-income countries, babies born to mothers under 20 years of age face higher risks of low birthweight, preterm delivery, and severe neonatal conditions (5). Newborns born to adolescent mothers are also at greater risk of having low birth weight, with long-term potential effects.5 In some settings, rapid repeat pregnancy is a concern for young mothers, which presents further risks for both the mother and child (13)
https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/adolescent-pregnancy

Why the fuck are you idiots trying to turn the US into a third world fucking country where children give birth? The funniest part is if you fucking cucks fought as hard for safe and responsible sex education to be taught we would continue to have a downward trend of abortions. Jesus christ I hate all of you
>>
>>398516
This anon gets it.
>>
>>398518
Next time you eat a cow product, then, remember you watched this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ca_VPwM5h8U

If you're going to make a non-abrahamic pseudo buddhist philosophical plea to logic on life being life, it must apply to all life. Not just human.
>>
>>398513
Okay. How are they life? They're a cell. But they're not a new human being. Because all of their genetic material is yours. Your sperm are not a new life form. They are your genes.
>>
>>398526
it seems you misunderstood
i put them at the same level because i'm fine with killing them all regardless
>>
>>398522
based and coat hanger pilled.
>>
>>398528
oh okay. I like the pro death angle too

I strongly feel like we're in here arguing with a 15 year old. Makes me rethink my life but not enough to actually do anything
>>
>>398522
>Why the fuck are you idiots trying to turn the US into a third world fucking country where children give birth?
They want to legalize fucking children. I mean they were behind the 'let's add P to LGBTQ' nonsense, it isn't a huge leap.
>>
>>398531
Welcome to 4chan!
>>
>>398534
Literally no one is, no one was, no one ever will be, the only people making it okay to fuck children is you and every cock-sucking Republican in office.
>>
>>398516
So what's the principal on why abortion is okay. But murdering an 11 month old is not?
>>
>>398534
>>398538

I want to post the list on this webpage as a wall of text, but I also don't want to railroad the thread.

Enjoy this inconceivably long list of Republican sex crimes.

http://stuffthatspins.com/2016/04/28/who-has-more-sex-offenders-republicans-or-democrats/
>>
>>398538
Thats what I was saying, Anon.
>>
>>398540
i literally INCLUDED IT IN THE POST YOU ARE RESPONDING TO, faggot. Read better.


>Obviously aborting pre-memory forming post birth entities is wrong because they have taken root in peoples lives and there were be severe emotional trauma from infanticide in the moral fabric of society.
>>
>>398501
Did you even respond to the right post?
>>
>>398544
I did. I wasn't disagreeing with you. I was presenting Republican logic to support you.
>>
>>398511
Hell if I know, i ain’t a scientist. But I don’t need to be to know that a zygote is not a human, or a person. Alive sure, but not more significant than any other cell in your body. Why do you think a zygote is a person/human?
>>
>>398527
Sperm and eggs have biological functions; they're cells and indeed a life form. They serve a specific function of carrying genes.
>>
>>398540
Because as per >>398516 post, the 11 month old can remember, or has the capacity to remember and so exists as a person. Of course, more features need to be present, like autonomy for instance to further qualify it as a person. That will come as the infant grows and matured. But would you call a fetus a person? A zygote? A sperm/egg cell? The very balls and ovaries that spawned them?
>>
>>398547
My mistake then
>>
>>398542
Meant to tag both in the reply, sorry.
>>
>>398522
I’m the anon you replied to. You sound like a massive nerd.

Idk why you wasted your time rant about the danger of young women giving birth. I never denied that it’s dangerous or even that it’s significantly more dangeeous for a young girl to give birth. I buy the statistics you just googled.

However, none of this proves that a young pregnant girl is in inevitable and immediate danger. Obviously the danger is not inevitable because if it were than 100% of young girls who get pregnant would have complications. And gone danger isn’t immediate because steps can be taken to foresee complications and present them from worsening. I by no means advocate that steps can not be taken to save a pregnant girl who is in inevitable or immediate danger of death, even if such steps lead to the death of the child. It is manifestly false, however, that simply the state of pregnancy constitutes such an inevitable or immediate danger.

Look at it this way: it’s absurd to kill a human being because there is simply the possibility that he might harm another, even if that possibility is somewhat high. It’s only ok to kill a human being when he is actively doing something that will harm another.
>>
>>398560
Not who you are responding to but I read this 3 times and I'm pretty sure you have the precursors to dementia.
>>
>>398560
An honest to God black hole brainlet
>>
>>398562
Sorry, I’m on my phone and making a lot of typos
>>
>>398564
how about you engage with the content of my argument nigger. there’s nothing formally wrong with my response— I responded directly to all of his main points. Clearly I’m not sidestepping anything. If I’m so obviously wrong then you’ll easily be able to disprove me
>>
>>398552
>11 month old can remember
I'm pretty sure that's a no.
>>
>>398568
your argument hinges on a philosophical belief that abortion is murder. And all murder is damnable. How can anyone argue with that by adding something that hasn't already been said?

Arguing with christfags is unbearable.

>>398516
>>
>>397988
Conservatism was always authoritarianism
>>
>>398572
>How can anyone argue with that by adding something that hasn't already been said?
There’s quite a lot that hasn’t been said. There are plenty here who assert that life begins at conception or once a fetus has emotions or once it has brain waves or once it’s outside of the mother’s womb or once it’s old enough to think, but no one has been able to back up any of these assertions. All anyone’s argument hinges on is “you can’t kill a baby once x happens because that’s just how it works.” It’s exactly as arbitrary to say that a baby is alive at birth as it is to argue that a baby is alive at conception. No one’s arguments have proven shit.
>>
>A follow-up anti-abortion bill in the legislative hopper in Ohio would, among other things, ban "drugs or devices used to prevent the implantation of a fertilized ovum,” which includes several popular forms of birth control.


What the fuck is this
Did people just suddenly decide to say fuck decades of human advancement?
>>
>>398560
I like how its absurd to kill a """"""""""""""""""human""""""""""""""""" being aka give a pregnant 11 year old who was raped and abused by a man a pill to terminate giving birth to his child at an age where nearly every single scientist or psychologist would tell you its fucking retarded for them to give birth and significantly negatively effects both the child phyiscally and mentally as well as the potential newborn. But its not crazy to make a fucking child give birth to her rapist baby.

>inb4 just give it up for adoption it's easy
Childbearing isn't fucking easy for grown women
Childbirth isn't fucking easy for grown women
But let's make a fucking 11 year old child do it and suffer and potentially fucking die or give birth to a dead child for the sins of another man who abused her. It's fine we can just put the newborn into the foster system if it doesn't die. It's not like every single part of it is a fucking trash fire because absolutely NO ONE wants to do anything about it or for it. God fucking forbid we ease the suffering of the orphans, foster children, and abused in the system. Instead let's add more! What can go wrong!

I sincerly honestly with every fiber of my being pray to whatever divinity exists that you never have children you fucking cunt
>>
>>398572
Incidentally, this is why the Pro- Life movement in the United States is making such great advances: It's more philosophically unified. Most pro- life people believe that life begins at conception. On the other hand, people who consider themselves pro- choice can't agree on where that choice ought to end. At fetal heartbeat? At first brain activity? Once the fetus can feel physical pain? Emotions? Memories? Once it's born? Once it can think rationally? There's no consensus on what constitutes human life or when the termination of a life is ok.
>>
>>398599
>Childbearing isn't fucking easy for grown women
figures that your mom didn't try much
>>
>>398560
See >>398522
11 year olds are not built to be moms. They haven’t even entered puberty yet - which prepares them for motherhood. Sustaining an infant at the same time you’re sustaining your growing body at the onset of puberty is a recipe for disaster. What is this, the Stone Age - putting buns in the ovens of little children who don’t even menstruate yet?
>>
>>398571
Read the rest of my post dammit
>>
>>398599
All of the situations you mention are terrible but none of them are as terrible as literally killing a human being.

If you could prove that there is a difference in value between a human embryo and a human adult then your argument would make sense. As it stands, literally any of the arguments you've used for abortion could just as easily be used to justify the murder of a dependent adult who is harming in some way those who take care of him.

lol. I'm not married myself but i'll bet the sight of my pro- life friends (who believe the same things I do) and their big beautiful families would absolutely enrage you. It's sickening to think that it's possible for someone like you to be so twisted and evil.
>>
>>398600
So a larger group of people have chosen to be retarded.

Republicans don't have historically low IQs for no good reason. Their white liberal contemporaries are a full standard deviation above them, which goes beyond nurture and can only be explained by genetics.

The most damning argument you can kind of hammer into Republicans is that they are free to practice the religious rites they believe in and everyone else is free to practice their religious beliefs. If I philosophically believe that an unborn fetus in its early stages is not a life, it is my religious right and thus protected by Freedom of Speech.

If the unborn fetus at 3rd trimester can be scientifically proven to be harmful to mothers, a law could be enacted to protect against those abortions.

1st term abortions are zero harm and protected by my religious dogma (agnosticism).

The first article of the bill of rights (Freedom of Speech) specifically safeguards the seperation of church and state.

Pro choice is a religious stance, and thus any state laws preventing me from practicing my zero harm religion is protected.

Good luck arguing that brainlets.
>>
>>398586
I mean, newborns can act for themselves, though they lack the smarts to act freely. They’re also separate from the mother - less of a “parasite” (in the sense that it physically depends on an umbilical cord to survive (Course it still need mommas milk but now it’s “separated” enough from the mom to ask for it.)) I’m not a philosopher and there are more traits linked to personhood, but even a newborn has more of these traits than that of a fetus, or even a zygote.
>>
>>398599
> 11 year old who was raped
Just stop your gaslighting now
11 year olds are not old enough for sexual consent
Therefore they cannot deny consent for sex
Which means they can't be raped
>>
>>398616
Why don't you post that on your facebook profile instead of an anonymous forum. See how that goes over.
>>
Again, the only philosophical argument for pro-life is that of a Vegan. If you are not a vegan and arguing pro life, you are a black hole brainlet.
>>
>>398612
>If you could prove that there is a difference in value between a human embryo and a human adult then your argument would make sense
Great so you literally don't care about the 11 year old girl. I don't know why you didn't lead with that a few posts ago I would have stopped replying to you. I'm so fucking tired of you assholes pretending to give a shit about human life for transparent ass morals.
>>
>>398600
>I don’t know when life begins
>might as well say it’s as early as possible
>hurr durr
:^)
>>
>>398614
Fuck. It's unbelievable to me that someone cal look at this and think "yeah, I've just written a good argument." This wouldn't get a passing grade in a high school philosophy class. I'm seriously wondering whether you're actually a christcuck larping as a pro- death faggot to make the other side look bad.

There are a lot of problems with your argument. The most glaring one is that you completely ignore what is the fundamental understanding of the pro- life movement: that the life of an unborn child is exactly as valuable as the life of an adult.

If this axiom of the pro- life stance is true, then the life of the unborn child ought to be protected under the same circumstances that the life of an adult is protected. This means that, no mater what an individual personally believes, he should not get to make the choice to abort a baby any more than he should get the make the choice to shoot an adult.

The pro- life position is precisely this: that the right to life of the unborn child ought to be protected from religions which want to kill them in exactly the same way that your freedom of speech ought to be protected from those religions which want to restrict it.

The pro- life position is precisely that an unborn child's right to life is a right that transcends religious belief and ought to be protected from the pro- choice religion.

Fuck, you're so fucking dense. Pull your head out of your ass for one split second and try to at least understand the position of the people you're arguing against.
>>
>>398612
>zygote/fetus = human being
??
>>
>>398629
t.seething brainlet projecting his own pseudo-intellectualism onto the clear winner of the argument.

Hows it feel being retarded, a faggot, and a part of the Low IQ GOP?
>>
>>398629
>zygote/fetus=unborn child
??
Clear that little thing up and your argument will work. What is the definition of an unborn child? And do the examples in this thread count? Don’t forget your proof
>>
>Rape can land you 10 years but if you abort the rape you can get 99 years
THE
LAND
OF
THE
FREE
HOME
OF
THE
BRAVE
Based Sharia Law
>>
>>398629
Seriously everyone read this so they know how a full on sperg lord autist composes their arguments.

Everyone should witness this absolute inability to grasp logic.

Witness it and be proud that you aren't this person.

God bless these christfags for providing some retarded entertainment.
>>
>>398626
>Great so you literally don't care about the 11 year old girl
There is literally nothing I said that implied, insinuated, or suggested anything remotely resembling that.

Of course I care about the eleven year old girl. I think it's tragic that she was raped and has to give birth and it's absolutely the duty of family, friends, and society to take care of her after the terrible ordeal is over (incidentally, there are literally thousands of pro- life organizations dedicated to supporting such woman in their difficult times. It's empirically false that those who oppose abortion never care about the women who bear the children). However, I think it's more tragic to kill an unborn child, and that the evil of the latter outweighs the evil of the former.

Seriously, stop with these ridiculous ad hom/ strawman combos. Maybe Alabama and Ohio wouldn't be passing laws you don't like if people like you took the time to actually understand pro- life people and respond to what they actually believe.
>>
>>398637
>seething
>MY RELIGION IS BETTER THAN YOURS

nice argument. BTFO christniggerfaggot.
>>
>>398631
>>398634
>accuse anon of being sperg
>proceed to sperg out at said anon
can you possibly grasp how retarded you look right now?
>>
>>398637
I'm 100 percent gonna get my GF pregnant now just so we can abort the fetus.

Literally going to waste 500 dollars just because I want you to know your autism led me to the murder of 4 cells with no consciousness or sentience.

Dead serious lmao.
>>
Unless the state is also imposing reproductive restrictions on men then the law is completely fucking moot and a simple exercise in literal fucking oppression. I wonder how many people know who get abortions when and why.

Fuck I hate how many people feel so strongly about this shit but refuse to do any research before shitting out retarded opinions and changing laws. The fact that women are also largely underrepresented in the government for this law to even be considered is fucked. Anon is spot on calling this Sharia law.
>>
>>398641
dawg, NOBODY in here agrees with you.

Arguing pro choice with someone of your mental caliber (pure religious autist) is an impossible deed.

You are religious and thus your life is beholden to a fake eternity promised by the bible (despite the bible advocating abortion in seperate cases, ironically) - you have no use for real world arguments in real world scenarios not beholden to an afterlife.

So you are useless. You are painfully retarded.
>>
>>398612
>All of the situations you mention are terrible but none of them are as terrible as literally killing a human being.
>>398522
>Adolescent pregnancy remains a major contributor to maternal and child mortality, and to intergenerational cycles of ill-health and poverty. Pregnancy and childbirth complications are the leading cause of death among 15 to 19 year-old girls globally, with low and middle-income countries accounting for 99% of global maternal deaths of women ages 15 to 49 years (4), (12).
>Adolescent mothers (ages 10 to 19 years) face higher risks of eclampsia, puerperal endometritis, and systemic infections than women aged 20 to 24 years (5). Additionally, some 3.9 million unsafe abortions among girls aged 15 to 19 years occur each year, contributing to maternal mortality and lasting health problems (1). Furthermore, the emotional, psychological and social needs of pregnant adolescent girls can be greater than those of other women.
>Early childbearing can increase risks for newborns, as well as young mothers. In low- and middle-income countries, babies born to mothers under 20 years of age face higher risks of low birthweight, preterm delivery, and severe neonatal conditions (5). Newborns born to adolescent mothers are also at greater risk of having low birth weight, with long-term potential effects.5 In some settings, rapid repeat pregnancy is a concern for young mothers, which presents further risks for both the mother and child (13)


>>398612
>All of the situations you mention are terrible but none of them are as terrible as literally killing a human being.
The irony is hilarious I don't even give a shit about the rest of your post
>>
>>398632
>unborn
definition is pretty obvious
>child
a human being which has not yet reached full maturity

a zygote is unborn. a zygote is a distinct organism with human DNA, but is not fully formed. ergo zygote fits the definition of unborn child

Is there any part of this you dispute?
>>
>>398649
Meant to link you disengenous-kun >>398637
>>
>>398649
based and miscarry pilled

Fuck that autist christ fag. He literally just argued that you'd be enraged if you saw how big HIS FRIENDS FAMILIES are.

hahahhaha.

hahahahhahahha.


ahaahahahahahhahah.

I can't even do it. "I'm not married by I have friends with BIG BIG families and you would BE UPSET"

ahahahahhahaha. i'm dead. 4th trimester abortion
>>
>>398637
Yeah pro-life people think it's perfectly fine forcing a child to give birth and risk generational health issues, mental issues, biological issues, and death. Why should I care about your position? The fact that it's not even an option to take a measure to 100% ensure the safety of this little girl and not only is it illegal to do so you're sitting there telling us from some artificial moral high standing thats fine and you care about the little girl with highly increased chances of literally dying, or having every part of her life negatively affected from her ability to have more children to her mental and physical health. Please unironically fucking kill yourself if you have no intention of ever allowing a woman to have a choice. That you assholes don't even have the courage to call yourself Anti-Choice is every indication that no one should ever tale you faggots seriously in any context. That you could forever shun the ability of another human being to have a choice about the biological processes that will ravage her espeically in this fucking context of her being repeatedly raped by a man disgusts me to the point that I can't and won't even consider you human.
>>
>>398647
You're accusing me of being illogical but you haven't actually given any specific examples of my illogicality.

There isn't a single post i've made in which I haven't responded directly to a point within my opponent's argument. Instead of responding to my counterarguments with further rebuttals, you instead ignore the content of what i say and proceed to call me names.

You're calling me retarded but you're the one holding yourself to lower standards of debate. I continually come up with responses to the content of your arguments, while you degenerate into asserting "i'm right, you're wrong, it's obvious because it's obvious"

I haven't committed a single formal logical fallacy. I haven't committed a single debate faux pas beside name calling (but this is 4chan. what do you expect?) Meanwhile, all you have in your arsenal are baseless assertions that you're right and I'm retarded.

I know you think you're in the right and that everyone with a brain would agree, but I assure you that any unbiased observer watching our discussion would see that, while I might not be ultimately right, I'm at least making formally logical arguments, while you haven't made a single coherent thought.

Maybe one day you'll look back on the way you think now and realize how much of a pompous idiot you were
>>
>>398642
lol. you wont. and even if you did, I wouldn't remember
>>
>>398661
tl;dr

I'm not engaging with you any longer. You have been thoroughly dismantled by multiple /news/ users.

You are retarded, and God can't help you.

Go ogle your friends BIG BIG FAMILIES while you LARP on the internet about an issue you'll never have to deal with: Pregnancy.
>>
>>398649
>ignores content of my post
>in response, makes assertions that have already been raised and responded to
>>
>>398663
Oh I will. And I'll be personally advocating abortion to women as a right and responsible thing partially because you're raised my awareness that people like you still exist in the scum underside of /b/ loli threads.

I'm politically active enough to have an impact on at least a few women who will be told to be proud of their decision and keep their chin high because they made the correct decision: Abort.

Just like your mother should have done with you.
>>
>>398666
Appropriate trips.
Why do you keep lying? Why don't you care that this little girl has massive health risks on every level? It the massive health risks to the baby if it ir the little girl doesn't die because of those massive health risks? Why can't you stop lying
>>
>>398665
>LARP on the internet about an issue you'll never have to deal with: Pregnancy.
nigger if I'm guilty of this then so are you

but yeah go pretend that you won the debate because incels on /news/ "dismantled" me by calling me names
>>
>>398668
>Or the massive health risks to the baby if it or the little girl doesn't die because of those massive health risks? Why can't you stop lying*
>>
>>398667
no u
>>
>>398671
we get it. you were bullied in school by girls because you're ugly and awkward, so you champion reactionary anti-feminist ideologies as a subconscious riposte to those long years of ridicule and loneliness.

>MY FRIENDS BIG FAMILIES WILL SEND YOU INTO A RAGE
>>
>>398667
>I'm politically active enough to have an impact on at least a few women who will be told to be proud of their decision and keep their chin high because they made the correct decision: Abort.

kek are you trying to convince me that you have a social life and female friends? now I know you're full of shit
>>
>>398675
My girlfriend has my cum inside her right now.

Anyways:

>Don't follow this link if you are Pro Life - IT WILL ENRAGE YOU. (not mine my friends btw)

https://abcnews.go.com/US/duggar-family-supessize-families/story?id=14956368
>>
>>398674
>still hasn't offered a single logical argument in response to any point I've made
>I totally could if I wanted to!! It's just not worth it!!!
larp harder
>>
>>398677
Gets accused of LARP.

Now is using my insult.

I'm flattered honestly

Dare I say, you're coping?
>>
My cousin joked that rapists are going to move to these states in droves now that they can basically start families in top of that law that is going to make it harder for women to report rape.

This brainlet arguing for forced rape babies is showing me that rapists are in fact welcomed in Alabama
>>
>>398679
still waiting for an argument
>>
>>398677
>Presents incel christ nigger faggot argument about Pro Life.

>Anon responds with both philosophical and constitutional arguments that deconstruct christfaganons posts in different, nuanced ways.

>Christfag continues but CONCEPTION is the beginning.

>Anons all deconstruct the argument with a scalpal in thoughtful, intuitive ways addressing the autonomy of an 11 year old rape victims future with an unborn baby.

>Christfag repeats CONCEPTION = human life.

>Anons start shitting on Christfags because they no longer deem this conversation salvageable. Are literally dealing with a manchild virgin christfag.

That about sum it up, Anons?
>>
>>398676
lol
>>
Why don't we just make vasectomies mandatory? It's a reversible process and a woman is literally unable to get pregnant without a man. Also this ensures that irresponsibility can't be a factor
>>
>>398685
>Anon responds with both philosophical and constitutional arguments that deconstruct christfaganons posts in different, nuanced ways
There were no "different" or "nuanced" ways in his argument. Everything he said boiled down to "right to abortion is protected under the constitution because it's a religious belief"

>Christfag continues but CONCEPTION is the beginning
wrong, I was not asserting at this point that conception is the beginning of life. I was using a hypothetical to show that anon hadn't actually dismantled the pro- life position (whether or not the pro- life position is true): IF pro life people are correct, then the right to life of the unborn fetus is the kind of right that ought to be protected from what Anon called "agnostic religious beliefs."

>Anons all deconstruct the argument with a scalpal in thoughtful, intuitive ways addressing the autonomy of an 11 year old rape victims future with an unborn baby.
of all the replies to this post in particular, there was one (1) which consisted of something other than name calling. This singular post contained nothing but a list of bad things that can happen to a pregnant young girl. This response was in no way relevant to my previous argument that Anon wrongly characterized pro- life belief.

>Christfag repeats CONCEPTION = human life.
I literally didn't

Are we even reading the same conversation? You've badly mixed up the order of the responses in this thread and you've badly misunderstood my arguments. You're actually making fun of me for things I didn't say. Anyone with reading comprehension realizes this.
>>
>>398689
Also a rapist can't impregnate a woman and give her an argument for an abortion when he's had his state mandatory procedure
Why even risk the chance of an unwanted pregnancy or hope that people somehow socially regress several centuries to when abstinence was an expectation among certain classes (Funnily enough it was never expected amongst the poor and impoverished who statistically make the most use of Birth Control) even though it wasn't ever a reality at any point

Also we've been aborting babies since the beginning of time. Even big brained moralfag Greeks and Roman's were down with the pill
>>
>>398685
>>398693
Tbh I do see how one reading my response to Anon's "philosophical and constitutional arguments" might mistake that response for a repeated assertion that life begins at conception. However, a more careful reading will reveal that that's not what I was doing at all.
>>
>>398694
None of that is ever going to happen because this is about leaning the law on women and the poor.
>>
>>398681
Give one, then you get one
>>
>>398699
This Anti-Choicers will never speak about the man's presence or the fact that without him pregnancy wouldn't even occur and only equate for the woman because they're disengenous and unironically misogynistic
>>
>>398689
>>398694
>>398699
>>398708

hey what do you guys think about routine infant male circumcision?
>>
>>398711
I think you drawing up an argument about the government picking and choosing when a human being's own body is theirs and not legally owning them isn't even relevant considering the arguments they keep putting forward for abortion being illegal
>>
>>398711
Sperg Wars: Autism strikes back.
>>
>>398711
Why do Anti-Choicers always want to move the argument? If the baby got aborted it wouldn't be mutilated :^)
>>
>>398713
>>398716
I'm not anti-abortion, I just don't really care when women have their rights undermined when men are routinely sexually mutilated not only is it 100% legal but it is also actively encouraged by the media, the government, and the corrupt medical establishment. Sorry.
>>
>>398036
>lower abortion rate in the US than actual pro-life countries
Source on this? Genuinely curious
>>
>>398711

barbaric, sadistic
.
>>
>>398711
I'm against it, why?
>>
>>398719
Imagine being so pathetic you can only care about 1 (one) thing that's wrong.
>>
>>398126
Well, as fucked up as statutory rape victims paying child support is, that has nothing to do with this issue, ergo whataboutism. Your pigeonholing of everyone that disagrees with you as a raging feminist is what makes you sound infantile.

The ironic part is that toxic masculinity is the reason why there are cases of raped boys being forced to pay child support. You know, toxic masculinity? The thing feminists so passionately hate? Usually the argument said by the judge as to why is something along the lines "he should suck it up and pay up because he liked it"
>>
>>398748
Go fuck yourself. It was never about "only caring about one thing", it's about the fact that women's issues are talked about ad nauseum as though they really are second-class citizens and being dealt some kind of profound injustice by American culture and yet next to nobody gives a shit about men's issues and when anybody tries to talk about them they get shut down and dismissed. If American society didn't consider me enough of a human being to respect MY bodily autonomy, then why the hell should I care when women can't get abortions?
>>
>>398560
If you actually read the post you'd see that the data shows that it IS an immediate threat to her health.

Very young girls are not built to be pregnant, their bodies are not prepared. The girl's own body is still developing quickly and need the resources to that end; having to divert much of those to a fetus will have long-term effects to her health and development. Not to mention that the birth process for an eleven-year-old would be extremely dangerous for both mother and child for reasons I shouldn't have to elaborate.

The fetus in this case is actively harming the mother in many ways.
>>
So they're gonna increasing funding for orphanages now right? But in all honesty I can't actually see how banning abortions outright is ever a good idea. Just look at communist Romania when they banned abortions.
>>
>>397942
Uh...not right now. Don't worry. I'll think of something later.
>>
>>398036
Yeah. Rallying point for the culture war, though.
>>
>>398837
Fighting over Alabama politics? I thought we all agreed it’s a Christian shithole.
>>
>>398725
https://www.guttmacher.org/fact-sheet/induced-abortion-worldwide

>The abortion rate is 37 per 1,000 women in countries that prohibit abortion altogether or allow it only to save a woman’s life

the US is around 18 per 1000 from what i've seen
>>
>>398839
Fighting over whether or not women have the right to be whores endlessly without having to take any responsibility for the kids. This fight was always about casual sex, and whether or not there are consequences. It was never really about abortion.
>>
>>399047
>whores
Opinion discarded
>>
>>398801
Why would they do that?
>More Unwilling parents
>More Parents in bad situations
>More Kids that have to grow up under unwilling or ready parents child, teen, or adult
>All the impoverished people who use abortions now spawning kids
>More impoverished kids as well as potentially developmentally impaired kids
>More crime
>More use of the prison system
>More money from your prison lobbyist butt buddies
>Less citizens voting for your enemies as felons are a second class citizen
This is an absolute win for the people who exploit our citizens. They have nothing to lose and everything to gain by implementing this.

Really its ingenious. People are going to be so busy arguing with the religious nuts who are championing this as well as the moral brainlets who's morals are as thick as a slice of wet white bread while ignoring the brains and evil behind them. This is about waging war on the poor and women not life because if any of these assholes gave a shit about life they'd realize that our programs and foster care systems are the last place you want to put any child but fuck it let's do it boys. Sharia law.
>>
>>399057
The hell do you want me to call them? The word for women who have tons of casual sex is whore. Slut. Streetwalker. If they didn’t have tons of casual sex we wouldn’t even be having this debate, so just using the word “women” isn’t appropriate, as there are actual women out there who do not do this.
>>
>>399098
don't mind me, just got my autism triggered
>The word for women who have tons of casual sex is whore.
no, those get paid for it; as such it doesn't fit the 'casual' criterion
>Slut.
yes
>Streetwalker.
usually a euphemism for whore, so no
>>
>>399047
Fuck off Muhammad. Go stone your women in your own country
>>
>>399098
Enjoy paying more in taxes for the increased welfare all those whores kids need.
Also a reminder that abortion has been on a downward trend thanks to the increase in real sex education instead of abstinence and that this generation is the least promiscuous in almost a century.
>>
>>399125
>Enjoy paying more...
The nature of the other side of the argument isn’t that we should deal with the consequences of women acting like whores, it’s that women should STOP acting like whores.
>>
>>399147
And how do you want to do that? Abstinence-only sex education has been repeatedly shown to not work, whereas education about safe sex and birth control has been reducing unwanted pregnancies wherever its applied. Even banning abortions won't stop people from having abortions, just like banning adultery and sex out of wedlock won't stop either.
>>
>>399147
And what if they don't stop acting like whores? You're still paying for welfare, you're still paying for that kid if he goes to prison, you're still paying for the extra cop put on the street to monitor these kids
>>
>>399155
Alternatively you could make a relatively fair and equitable system by allowing women with unwanted kids to starve. I’m not sure where you got the idea that everyone HAS to pay for the poor decisions of single mothers. Let them sink or swim, and eventually they’ll start making better decisions.
>>
>>399160
Or you could simply help prevent the prevalance of single mothers by allowing abortions and birth control instead of implementing sharia law
>>
>>399160
when does "eventually" happen?
>>
>>399178
When trickle down economics finally magically works as advertised
>>
>>399160
if they starve then they'll just go steal food, then wind up in prison. You're still paying for that. You'll always pay for the poor unless you make it full mad max you'll have to get rid of police, get rid of public services, get rid of the justice system, get rid of infrastructure, etc. This is how society works you moron
>>
>>399166
>Implementing Sharia Law
This is disingenuous as fuck. Abortion has been illegal implicitly for most of human history even in, or perhaps especially in, the civilized parts of the world. We didn’t have sharia then and we won’t have it after re-banning abortion. The only question is whether or not women can be trusted to exercise self control and not use legal abortion as an excuse to have huge amount of unprotected casual sex. Obviously in the years since roe v wade, they haven’t exercised any self control at all, so now we have to try something else. Freedom of speech isn’t a pass to tell fire in a crowded theatre, and freedom of abortion isn’t supposed to be a pass to fuck whomever you want whenever you want. If you abuse your rights, eventually they’ll have to be pared back to deal with the fact that you cannot control yourself. E.G. hate speech laws, or this.
>>
>>399184
>Obviously in the years since roe v wade, they haven’t exercised any self control at all, so now we have to try something else.

they have though, abortion rates are at it's lowest point in 50 years. We have a lower abortion rate that pro-life countries.
>>
>>399184
Again, teenage pregnancies are at their lowest level in a long time and abortions have actually been on a downward trend. You're parroting this Fox News fantasy that access to abortions turns women into sluts when that simply hasn't been the case.

And even then, it's not against the law for women to have sex.
>>
>>399084
You have a good point
Perhaps the solution to the school shooting problem in America is legalizing school shootings
>>
>>397999
>Right to Work state
>>
>>399184
>illegal implicitly for most of human history even in, or perhaps especially in, the civilized parts of the world.
Imagine making a claim without any evidence or doing a web search for a minute about a time period extensively researched and investigated
Imagine also being wrong
>>
>>399184
Why do women having sex and liking to have sex cause an aneurysm in so many people? You do know they're as human as a Male right? And we're not tribesmen with an IQ of 4 trying to exterminate the other tribesmen so we can eat a coconut?
You wouldn't happen to be an incel or MGTOW Would you? I'd like to know before I make fun of you. I want to be as accurate as possible
>>
>>398203
get your penis-mutilating hands off our babies
>>
>>398314
a key phrase is also "governments interest"
>>
>>399188
You are assuming that the point of the law is to crack down on pregnancies. If the problem were more abortion, we wouldn’t be putting these laws forward. As you said, abortion is trending down. It’s about trying to stem the tide of unprotected casual sex, which has trended far, far upward.

>inb4 won’t stop casual sex
No shit Sherlock. Even the Roman Emperor Augustus tried and failed to moralize the behavior of loose women. It did t work for him and it won’t work for us. The point is to make it harder and harder for the undesirables, in this case, women who insist on frequent casual sex, to live the lifestyle they insist on living, and to make sure the hardships land squarely on the people perpetrating the behavior.
>>
>>399193
I enjoy my women not having a wrecked vagoo before I get to it
Loose and floppy vags aren't attractive
>>
>>399206
>It’s about trying to stem the tide of unprotected casual sex, which has trended far, far upward.

source on that? If teenage pregnancies and abortions are trending down, why would unprotected sex go up
>>
>>399084
Yes, this is American Sharia Law, put forth by the establishment and gobbled up by victimized Christians who feel they need visibility and a politics that represents their identity. The propaganda works, these values were taught. In God They Trust
>>
>>399217
It's even more blatant when they go on long ass rants about responsibility or some shit (Funnily enough they think allowing a child to suffer Is a ok and a lesson in responsibility and a high moral ground) and or will respond with some dumb shit like don't have sex just practice my Christian social tradition and you won't have to suffer the consequences. Sounds really familiar but I can't quite place where and what highly criticized religion that attitude comes from.
>>
>>399217
>>399230
>all this coping
You lose kids. Get used to it. But if you need to vent, please go to the designated safe place that is reddit.
>>
Why even waste the 60 seconds by not even making a argument
>>
This is a one-off argument that makes no sense, if the unborn is considered a human, then it is entitled to rights, and since the state of fetus is required for ALL human, then to destroy one would deny the existence of a human, which is part of the definition of killing. To argue counter to this point denies humanity towards the weak and defenseless, and allow their victimization.
>>
>>399217
You know it works the same way in Islamic countries, the powerful make laws on religious grounds, and somehow it enforces their economic and legal position at the top
>>
>>399214
Because of the rise of tinder and WhatsApp, because of the fall of morals in popular culture, and because women love having casual sex without any consequences. How can you suggest that there is somehow less of this in (current year)?
>>
>>399235
considering 50% of fetuses are miscarried, I don't really find it that harsh to abort if the mother isn't able to support the child.
>>
>>399238
>How can you suggest that there is somehow less of this in (current year)?

because unprotected sex is directly correlating to things like abortion and teenage pregnancies, and seeing them go down means unprotected sex is going down. And you still haven't given me a source, just feelings
>>
>>399240
Do birth control and other contraceptives count as protected sex or just condoms?
Genuinely curious
>>
>>399235
Is it a human tho? Better yet, is it a person?
>>
>>399240
>B-But you still haven't given me a source

You and I both know this is a fallacy on 4Chins. Actually, anywhere - there is not enough personal gain in proving my point to a random person on the internet that the personal gain outweighs the amount of time and effort it would take to track down sources for an argument. Its simply not worth it. I'm not sure why people act like the reality that time is an important resource and I'm not willing to spend more of it trying to prove that some random fool is wrong proves anything at all. Even if I did go out and spoonfeed you, you would simply claim that my source is inauthentic, and counter with your own similarly inauthentic sources anyway. It would never end. Having said that...

Nothing you can say is going to change the very real fact that casual sex is on the rise. Anyone who lives in a society with other people in it and observes the behavior around them can see this. Tinder and Snapchat have made it easy, and what can laughably be called "Modern Culture" has made it guilt-free. Of course more people are having casual sex than in the days of stoning for adultery.

>Inb4 People have always been having...

Yes, they have. Behind closed doors, people have always, ALWAYS broken every rule there is to break. But there's a big difference between the breaking of rules behind closed doors, and publically, openly supporting degenerate behavior.
>>
>>399374
this is the most feelings based post I've ever seen.
>>
>>399374
>Nothing you can say is going to change the very real fact that casual sex is on the rise.
The number of casual sex partners has been decreasing since the mid 20th century. We currently live in the least promiscuous generation since the 1920's. Researchers who analyzed findings concluded that those now in their early 20s are almost three times as likely not to be sexually active as their parents’ generation. The CDC itself contributes its decreasing trend of teen pregnancy and STD transmission to a decrease in female sexual behavior. All of these findings can be reviewed in the Archive of Sexual Behavior. The Archives of Sexual Behavior is a peer-reviewed academic journal in sexology. It is the official publication of the International Academy of Sex Research. So, in summary, you're 100% incorrect.
>>
>>399248
Is a fertilized chicken egg not considered an unborn chicken?
>>
>>399235
I like how morally sound it is to potentially cripple a 11 year old girl with high chances of killing and or crippling the baby. God fucking bless Christianity and Moralfags
>>
>>399411
>Peer reviewed academic journal in sexology
>academic journal in sexology
>sexology

Go peddle your gender studies degree somewhere else. This isn't /LGBT/.
>>
>>399464
Having trouble finding the clit, are we?
>>
>>399464
>Sexology is the scientific study of human sexuality, including human sexual interests, behaviors, and functions.
>The term sexology does not generally refer to the non-scientific study of sexuality, such as political science or social criticism.
How to ruin all credibility with one post: a treatise by anon.
>>
>>399464
>I don't like facts or science
>>
>>398079
Adoption costs thousands and is so inefficient that frankly a majority of the children will be floating in foster care
>>
>>399412
It’s not, Given that it can’t immediately hatch a new chick, for instance.
>>
>>399477
How does time play into the equation? Presumably if it can turn into a chicken, then it's an unborn chicken, no?
>>
>>399478
If my food can turn to shit does it mean I’m eating shit?
>>
>>399498
If you want to get anal retentive about it, then sure. The materials which inevitably reached your mouth probably had some form of manure of urea involved in it's creation.
>>
>>399472
This was brought up earlier. This thread's served its purpose. It's going in circles now and anti-choice idiots are no closer to changing their stance.
>>
>>399506
>This thread's served its purpose.
It allowed you to vent and cope a little? Good. I hope criminalizing the mutilation of newborn boys is next on the program. Helping the oppressed one protective measure at a time. Weird how the libs aren't on board... Oh well
>>
>>399530
I’m uncircumcised and still consider you one of the biggest autists I’ve ever witnessed on 4chan. You probably think I’m joking. Been her 13 years and you are right up there with the lowest form of consciousness. And again, I live to witness this shit. It makes me happy knowing filth like you exists living in an incel hell created by your own retarded mind.
>>
>>399532
I'm also uncircumcised and don't give a fuck about your feelings. It should be illegal, and any adhominem you can come up with don't change that. But I guess abortion was the first thing to be dealt with, as it's what people like to screech and protest about more
>>
>>399534
Life really did a number on you didn't it.

You're protesting circumcision in an abortion thread on /news/ on an above water submarine anime board.

This isn't an ad hominem. Its a direct analysis: This is possibly the highest power level I have ever witnessed.
>>
>>399536
>He still thinks his opinion matters after this pathetic shit:
>>399532
>I'm uncircumcised and still consider you

Keep it up. I'm sure you'll be taken seriously one day.
>>
>>399541
>t.its over 9000

Okay, buddy, whatever you say XD
>>
>>398081
>Idk, seems gruesome until you remember that the alternative to forcing the girl to give birth is the option of literally killing a human being.
Does a fetus want to be born?
Perhaps it tends to be. But does it want it? Should it?
Is it in a rock's interest to one day be reconfigured into a human?
>>
>>399602
>Does a fetus want to be born?
Idk can we even scientifically prove consciousness in the first place?
You may as well be asking if God is purple
>>
>>397919
>A barely pubescent girl has been impregnated, allegedly, by a 26-year-old man who had sex with her on multiple occasions,
C H A D
H
A
D
>>
>>399603
how do you not notice if you are being conscious right now?
>>
>>399605
P E D O
E
D
O
>>
So Anti-Choicers want this little girl to suffer for the rest of her life because...?
>>
>>399630
Its not about this little girl, its about policy, and policy makers on the pro-choice side are disingenuously using this little girl as a propaganda piece to try and point out how cruel the other side of the argument can be in one specific situation, just like you.

In one specific situation, you can find a good argument for taking away guns, or cars, or freedom or speech, or any rights we've ever had. Its easy to find a single instance of shit going very wrong and hold it up as an example of what happens EVERY SINGLE TIME (TM) someone does X thing.

Anti-Choicers want women to seriously consider the fact that they have a duty, as the bearers of children, to be aware of the importance that actually has instead of accepting "Muh Overpopulation" memes and the idea that having kids really doesn't matter at all. Of course it fucking matters. Its how we propegate our species, and if we stop having kids because all the women are too busy being whores, the entire human race could die out. That's a huge deal.

They're trying to pass legislation that holds women accountable for their duties as a civilized decent person. We have many functions of this - like the laws that keep people from driving while drunk, or from drinking in public. There are limits to how far people are allowed to go for the sake of fun when that fun is against the public safety and the public good.

Women abusing abortion as a means to take the consequences out of casual sex is a HUGE hit against the public safety and the public good, no matter how you tell it.

>Inb4 My Body My Choice
Fuck off. If I have to knuckle under and drive sober every day for the good of the nation, you can knuckle under and control the opening of your legs for the good of the nation.
>>
>>397919
literally sounds like niggers, this stuff gets ignored usually because its so common amongst blacks, people stopped caring

>>397920
>rights that can’t be abrogated by the sins of the biological father.
That's a leftist talking point about illegals and immigrants too, having the same rights as a citizen, lol, because "no uman iz ilegal brooo",
But somehow, all blacks are former slaves, all whites are guilty, all immigrants are good, all jews are discriminated, all women are victims, bla bla
>microscopic embryo
So what is the difference between an adult and a smaller child?
The number of days? The number of cells? Do those legitimize you having any rights and a child not?

Isn't dehumanizing a smaller, underdeveloped child as "fetus" the same way nazis dehumanized jews to genocide them as "rats" ? ayyyy

The rapespawn should be aborted on the basis of eugenics and being the creation of an act of violence, as in being the offspring of a literal sub-human rapist male with low IQ, low impulse control, bad tendencies, soft consciousness and moral comprehension (probably a nigger)
and a girl who is not only biologically meant to be breeding, since she is not mature, but has a child from an act of aggression instead of a mutual agreed consented relationship

>>397978
Based. Now thots, sluts and whores will either become responsible or move the fuck out.
>>
>>399602
>Does a fetus want to be born?
A child, retard. a child. Dehumanizing children with "fetus" doesn't change the fact that those are still babies.

Life wants to be born, otherwise it wouldn't appear.
>>
>>399602
>>399603
It isn't about proving anything, its about taking the decision away from people who would use arguments like this to remove the agency of a helpless child and justify murder.
>>
>>399642
Continued autism.

Who will win, 20 grown adults or 1 brainlet?

Stay tuned.
>>
>>399637
>inb4 drinking and driving affects others peoples bodies not just your own so it doesn't count!

having a baby affects the body of every person that baby would ever meet or interact with in its entire existence if you want to take that to its logical end, but so what? What about the cases a person is just toeing the legal b/a level and doesn't cause an accident? Your body your choice? Or should there be reasonable limits for the sake of society?
>>
Why do you libtard baby killers always bring up rapists? It's actually extremely rare for women to get preggers from a rapist. A more typical excuse for abortion is not ready or muh career.
>>
>>399640
Cringe
>>
>>399637
Okay so you want an 11 year old to suffer for the rest of her life or die after already suffering and being raped multiple times also you want the baby to suffer for the rest of its life for a point of moral superiority

Got it.
>>
>>399666
Appropriate trips for the attitude of this post
>>
I am pro-choice, but I'll never lift a finger to help the pro-choice movement until American society stops fellating mutilated you-know-who penis and men's bodily autonomy is protected.
>>
>>399678
> pro-choice movement
A woman's right to her own body is not a movement, any more than your obsession to protect your fap flap is.
>>
>>399666
Read the OP
A lot of strict abortion laws make exceptions for rape and incest. The Ohio law does not. Luckily since the law isn't in effect yet the girl in the OP story can still have an abortion, but under the law she would have to give birth to her rapist's baby (also remember that she's eleven)
>>
>>399678
So you're not pro-choice and just wanted to attention whore your cringey MGTOW stuff
>>
>>399680
So men don't have a right to their own bodies? All right, gonna go on continuing to not care about your obsession with your cunt.
>>
>>399683
What is MGTOW about men having the right to their own body? I'd love to hear your explanation, I'm sure it'll be really insightful.

Obviously, they have nothing to do with each other and you just flew in from reddit where stringing together buzzwords like that gets you the mad upvotes, but I'd like to see you make a fool of yourself anyway.
>>
>>399684
What does any of this have to do with man's bodily autonomy? Men aren't the ones getting impregnated by their rapists.
>>
>>399686
Its MGTOW when you go into an abortion debate and go "BUT WHAT ABOUT MEEEEE?"
>>
>>399687
No, but they are having their genitals mutilated without their consent en masse.

>>399688
Nothing "MGTOW" about that. When there's a national dialogue about abortion but almost nobody talks about the systematic mutilation of men's genitals that has been going on in this country for 150 years and there is this mistaken assumption that men have full control of their bodies and women don't when that is very obviously not the case, that needs to be addressed.
>>
>>399690
Because that's not the subject of the debate. It's also a fact that men have much more control of their bodies then men do, because they can't get pregnant.
I'm anti-circumcision too but you're just an MRA attention whore who thinks that anti-circumcision and abortion rights are mutually exclusive. Fuck off back to where you came from.
>>
>>399693
Men have literally zero reproductive rights.
>>
>>399696
They have the only reproductive rights they need, i.e. the right to use birth control. Meanwhile upcoming laws for consideration in Ohio will outlaw the use of any method of preventing a fertilized ovum from implanting itself on a uterine wall in women.

Women naturally require more reproductive rights than men because they are the ones who actually have to carry the burden of pregnancy. It's not an equal relationship.
>>
>>399693
Hes complaining about it not being in the public consciousness and you whine at him cause thats not the subject of the debate, hes using one issue to draw attention to the other. Why are you so dumb?
>>
>>399693
>It's also a fact that men have much more control of their bodies then men do, because they can't get pregnant.

And? What, that's how we gauge how much control somebody has over their bodies? Are you pulling my chain or what? Men are sexually mutilated on a routine basis in this glorified Third World shithole that we live in, in infancy and usually without any anesthesia at all. 120 million American men will never know what having a normal body is and most of them don't even know that the penis that they look at every day is in a sub-optimum, altered state and will be for the rest of their lives. But because women can get pregnant, men have more control over their bodies? How fucking DUMB are you?
>>
>>399699
Because it has nothing to do with the thread, he's just being an attention whore.
>I know this has nothing to do with the thread but LOOK AT MEEEEE
>>399700
Yes, because women can get pregnant and men can't, women are currently subject to much more regulation on their bodies than men are.
>>
>>399698
Birth control is not an innate reproductive right. Once sperm leaves the body a man has no control over what happens in the subsequent pregnancy, but is still fully expected to carry a financial and legal burden.
>>
>>399705
He's not giving birth or having his body and mind drastically altered for the rest of his life or putting his life at risk

I wonder he has no say
It's really a mind boggling issue.
>>
>>399704
A fetus is not the womans body it doesnt even have the same dna.
>>
>>399706
I wonder why*
>>
>>399706
>imagine thinking this is an argument for a man having no say in whether or not his woman kills his son...
>>
>>399706
>or having his body and mind drastically altered for the rest of his life or putting his life at risk

Are you serious?
>>
>>399709
He should've never had sex :^)

Also again when it's his body literally at risk of death and life altering, Biological/Mental/Psychological chnages alongside the risk of death wake me up to care.
>>
>>399706
Pregnancy is extremely stressful for a father. They are pressured to provide for a family, both culturally and legally, even if that means destroying their body.

I seriously don't understand why this is so hard for you to admit.
>>
>>399710
>Birth and carrying a child is easy
Ok
>>
>>399712
>Also again when it's his body literally at risk of death and life altering, Biological/Mental/Psychological chnages alongside the risk of death wake me up to care.

Funny, all of those are factors in circumcision.
>>
>>399713
Is he at risk of literally dying from the process of having a child in his body and pushing it out? Will chemicals in his brain alter the way he thinks negatively because of His body's reaction to giving birth? Is he at risk of shitting and pissing in a bag for the rest of his life because of birth tearing a new hole from his vagina to his anus? Is he at risk of giving birth to a dead child? Is he at risk of dying from giving birth? Is it possible for him to have a miscarriage and birth a dead clump of flesh at any point?
>>
>>399712
*she should have never had sex if she didnt want a baby
Nice try at inverting reality though.
>>
>>397919
it is unfortunate how primed for low quality bait posting this subject is.
>>399716
4/10
Not really, and there is little similarity between a routine medical procedure for removing extra skin and forcing someone whose body can't physically handle pregnancy into pregnancy.
>>
>>399721
No, because he's not giving birth. That doesn't mean he deserves any less rights than a woman though.
>>
>>399713
The only other option is if the father forces the woman to have an abortion which is infringing on her autonomy rights. What solution is best MRA activist?
>>
>>399725
>removing extra skin

Alright, this is bait. Nothing to see here, folks.
>>
>>399730
No law forces you to pay child support or for you to stay with the child. It's up to the courts to decide if the mother cannot financially support the child herself and you need to help.
>>
>>399735
Removing skin that's like super sensitive and stuff. Either way it's a really poor false equivalency.
>>
>>399730
It does though, because the woman has a much greater burden than a man. You say
>but men have to support their children financially!
as if women don't also have to do that. Meanwhile men don't share the burden of pregnancy.
>>
>>399739
Explain how removing the five most sensitive regions and most of the surface tissue of the penis which has long-term effects on the mind and has resulted in the loss of the penis and even death on multiple occasions(especially in the Third World) is a really poor false equivalency, my dear redditor.
>>
>>399723
I hope your daughter doesn't get raped. Or, I'm sorry, choose to get raped according to you.
>>
>>399730
>No, because he's not giving birth
Exactly so fuck his opinion and fuck any action he'll try to take to force the person who has to deal with all the complications of birth while he has none.
>>
>>399723
>Sharia Law
No thanks
>>
>>399745
It's his child, too, you dumb bitch.
>>
>>399742
I'm certain the number of deaths due to underage births far out weights that of circumcision.

We aren't talking about third worlds, we're talking about America. If you can't read your own sentence to figure out why these two things are entirely separate. I don't know how to help you. One involves potentially ruining someone's life, the other is literally a new life.
>>
>>399747
He's not the one who has to give birth though, you dumber bitch
>>
>>399747
He's not risking his life incel
I literally don't know why this is so hard for you
>>
>>399747
Not if he doesn't want it. If he cannot afford child support he doesn't have to pay, he could leave all the burden on the woman at anytime. Plus if you talk to you partner about not wanting the child they could be okay with it and won't hinder you with child support payments. Men have way more freedom when it comes to accident children than women
>>
>>399754
>If he cannot afford child support he doesn't have to pay
What magical universe do you live in?
>>
>>399741
A greater burden does not equal a greater say in any regard. Many people suffer disproportionately to the rights they are given.
>>
>>399756
The universe of Judges looking at your expenses and income to decide a fair child support plan and if you cannot afford it they won't do anything? What world do you live in anon?
>>
>>399757
>A greater burden does not equal a greater say in any regard
It can easily in this regard. You're using a vague logical point on a very specific situation, Anon. Step it up. This isn't the poor vs the rich.
>>
>>399748
>we're talking about America.

Even in America, multiple boys have died or lost their penises because of this practice. And many more men have suffered permanent long-term complications that have just been accepted as normal. And yet, nobody cares. Women think they somehow have it worse because they can't willy-nilly kill their unborn children while 120 million American men have scar tissue on their genitals and will never know what a real orgasm feels like.
>>
>>399757
It does in this case. How can men and women possibly have equal reproductive rights when the pregnancy is entirely within the woman's body?
>>
>>399758
Literally find me multiple cases, because that's so beyond the norm it's kinda funny. I mean going to florida and skipping out is one thing.
>>
>>399762
Find me multiple cases might be the wrong phrasing, rather, find a way to show that it's the norm for a judge to actually swing that direction, because culturally in America that's not the case. You really just need a minimum wage job and that's typically more than enough.
>>
>>399762
Do you know how child support hearings work anon? You know these things go to a judge and they look at both parents incomes and expenses to find the best solutions, right? Ones that won't put the father on the street without a job..
>>
>>399759
>This isn't the poor vs the rich.
Considering the poor and impoverished use birth control and abortion the most it really is

You can't keep locking them up, taking away their voter rights, and throwing massive debt on them if they don't exist. Also something something the bible. Something something what is speration of church and state
>>
>>399766
Please change my mind about the culture concerning those judges and hearings because it's common knowledge you need to GTFO2FL if it's going to go against you, and it is going to go against you. How many black males wouldnt be put on the street if they had to pay support vs how many run from collections concerning that support? I know I'm meme'ing a bit, but there's no need to be disingenuous over it. Like >>399742 this retard

>>399760
That's still not comparable to child birth, still not as many deaths or health issues as people who had to undergo birth when not physically equiped for it, and is a completely separate issue, ffs. I'm a male and I care about that issue but I'm not so full of my own retarded poop to think they're even remotely the same issue.

>>399767
Considering this isn't something you can be as hand wavingly vague as Rich vs Poor, no, it isn't. This is Alabama trying to play 3d chess when they should be aware it's going to get slapped down in the Supreme Court.
>>
>>399774
>I'm a male and I care about that issue but I'm not so full of my own retarded poop to think they're even remotely the same issue.

We're talking autonomy. Men have no autonomy. Why should men care about women's autonomy when they don't even have autonomy?
>>
>>399774
OH DEAR!
its almost like you dont have to live in alabama!
why dont you just go to any one of the innumerable liberal bastions where all this stuff is still completely legal!
>but i have 2 driwve dewr!!11111
wow how horrible, give this retard some driving reparations
>>
>>399761
Because both contribute to the pregnancy, and both are responsible for it's literal and figurative conception.

The notion that a woman should have special privilages to a govern a pregnancy *simply because* she invests more bodily resources is a widely accepted fallacy that has no basis in reality.
>>
>>399774
>Considering this isn't something you can be as hand wavingly vague as Rich vs Poor, no, it isn't. This is Alabama trying to play 3d chess when they should be aware it's going to get slapped down in the Supreme Court.
I worded that poorly. What I meant to say it's a part of it as much as the supreme court ruling is or the opinion and votes of evangelical snowflakes as well as the legit fucked politicians that forgot to leave the bible at the floor of their offices. It's also going to be a highlight in the next and several election even further
>>
>>399779
Apply yourself.
>>399778
That's not society's fault, or a rapists fault, it's just your parents being ignorant. Something that'll probably change drastically over the next 10 years as the reasons behind circumcision wasn't common knowledge. You not having a say over your dick because your parents were stupid isn't any reason to make someone else' life miserable or over because you're mad at them. Someone being raped and impregnated isn't the same. Kudos because I'm still responding.

And really then we're talking about children and their autonomy, at which point we're all on the same page. If you shouldn't have to have your wang rearranged, she shouldn't have to make a whole new human and live with the consequences.
>>
>>399778
>Men have no autonomy
Imagine unironically being an Incel
>>
>>399785
You're saying that like it isn't touched on already by campaigners tho. I think it might be for this one, just because current drama and potentially new justices, but it won't be afterwards. At least that's what I see.
>>
>>399787
>That's not society's fault

How is it not?

>>399788
>Imagine unironically being an Incel

I don't think you know what that word means.
>>
>>399784
Both contribute to the pregnancy, but only one has to actually go through pregnancy. Once a man pumps his seed into someone, his part is done.
You're both arguing that men and women have an equal role in pregnancy (which is incorrect) and that a party's role in pregnancy shouldn't have any effect on their bodily autonomy rights during pregnancy. You seem to mistakenly believe that pregnancy ends at conception.
>>
>>399789
>You're saying that like it isn't touched on already by campaigners tho.
It wasn't ever a "crisis" or a major concern to this level however. The same way immigration wasn't statistically or politically a crisis until muh wall
>>
>>399787
>Apply yourself.
hang yourself.
thanks for the (you)
>>399787
>Someone being raped and impregnated isn't the same.
its probably just as painful, and certainly just as damaging.
>>399788
>muh incel
shave your armpitts destiny
>>
>>399795
Here is your last (you) from me. I said apply, not do worse intentionally.
>its probably just as painful, and certainly just as damaging.
Easily no.
>>399793
I see what you're saying but I don't see it as anything other than another political passing fancy.
>>
>>399795
>just as painful, and certainly just as damaging
millions of American men seem perfectly fine after having been circumcised as infants.
>that time I got a routine medical procedure as an infant was EXACTLY like the time your child daughter was raped and impregnated
This is why nobody takes MRAs seriously
>>
>>399798
I might be too cynical who knows. These politicians play with lives for fun and profit and I don't put them planting seeds like this out of the equation. I need to check out the electoral strength of the states most opposed to abortion. With the right propaganda it could easily be the subject that swings a presidency
>>
>>399799
>millions of American men seem perfectly fine after having been circumcised as infants.

Define "perfectly fine". The US is one of the biggest users of Viagra and sexual lubricants in the world. Having 1/4 of the nerve endings and missing half or more of the surface tissue of your penis is not "perfectly fine", it's just that American men think that the sexual dysfunction that they experience with their genitals is normal.

>>399799
>routine medical procedure as an infant

Yes, a routine medical procedure where a probe is inserted into the foreskin to tear apart the membrane connecting it to the glans in infancy before the foreskin, which contains the five most sensitive parts of the penis, is slowly amputated. All without anesthesia of course. Go fuck yourself, you worthless fucking cunt.
>>
>>399774
>this is alabama trying to play 3d chess when they should be aware it's going to get slapped down in the Supreme Court
I'd like to believe this but it's an obvious ploy by states like Alabama and Ohio to get the Supreme Court to overturn Roe v. Wade, and there's actually a good chance of it working.
>>
>>399799
>millions of American men seem perfectly fine after having been circumcised as infants.
millions of women seem fine after being raped (do you think your comments through?)
>This is why nobody takes MRAs seriously
this is why nobody takes far left feminists seriously
>>399798
>>its probably just as painful, and certainly just as damaging.
>Easily no.
prove it
>easily no
>getting a part of your penis cut off without pain medication couldnt possibly come close to rape bro!
>women are just divine creatures and to harm a single hair on their head its like a million holocausts!
>>
>>399804
>Additionally, a recent study of Senel et al.37 that examined the long-term effects of circumcision on sexual function concluded that circumcision did not adversely affect sexual functions, but it caused a significant improvement in erectile function and overall sexual satisfaction.
Literally .3 seconds on Google
>>
>>399806
>and there's actually a good chance of it working.
lol i fucking hope so
I think your tiny little soy soaked brains might fucking pop
>>
>>399807
>millions of women seem fine after being raped
They don't.
>not equating circumcision to child rape is equal to being a far-left feminist
Fuck off, I was anti-circumcision before but now if I ever have a boy I'm circumcising him solely to spite you
>>
Imagine being so assblasted about your parents snipping your penis skin that you'd force other babies to have their penis skin snipped by being born

Based Incels
Based MGTOWS
Fight the good fight brothers
>>
>>399810
>but it caused a significant improvement in erectile function and overall sexual satisfaction.
>chopping off a part of the penis improves sexual function
and thats why we should do the exact same with women
>>
>>399810
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1464-410X.2006.06685.x

"CONCLUSIONS

The glans of the circumcised penis is less sensitive to fine touch than the glans of the uncircumcised penis. The transitional region from the external to the internal prepuce is the most sensitive region of the uncircumcised penis and more sensitive than the most sensitive region of the circumcised penis. Circumcision ablates the most sensitive parts of the penis."

Take your Chinese-produced Shang Ring propaganda and stick it back up your ass.
>>
>>399814
>Makes unsubstantiated claim
>Unsubstantiated claim is wrong
>Doubles Down
Donald please get the fuck off of 4chan and reign in your warhawks before you get thousands of American Soldiers killed again and scores more traumatized
>>
>>399812
>Fuck off, I was anti-circumcision before but now if I ever have a boy I'm circumcising him solely to spite you

And you wonder why men don't want anything to do with you.
>>
>>399812
>They don't.
well millions of men dont seem fine
thanks for the non argument you double digit IQ retard
>before but now if I ever have a boy I'm circumcising him solely to spite you
Is there a link between unshaven female armpits and rage? seek help friend, what ever did your father do to you?
>>
>>399818
>well millions of men don't seem fine
your MGTOW forum isn't "millions of men".
>>
>>399816
Objective comparisons of the intact and mutilated penises and histological analysis of the foreskin show that there is a significant difference. Your bullshit survey made to promote a Chinese-made circumcision device proves nothing.
>>
>>399820
>MGTOW

upvoted
>>
>>399815
>Makes an unsubstantiated claim
>Posts a source that doesn't even agree with or state his claim
Donald
Pls
STOP
>>
>>399816
>>Makes unsubstantiated claim
>>Unsubstantiated claim is wrong
>>Doubles Down
like I trust a study done to protect the genital mutilation traditions of minorities, especially one that has a totally counter-intuitive claim. I might buy into the idea that long term effect is negligible, but better? that just sounds like fucking bullshit. I wasnt the person who claimed it hurt long term function either
>inb4 COPE
>inb4 wow dood u dont trust this single studee?!?1
I could just as easily spam studies that you wouldnt accept either
>>
>>399821
Donald jesus christ who gave you a thesaurus
>>
>>399823
"Circumcision ablates the most sensitive parts of the penis."

You have to put some effort into being this dumb.
>>
>>399824
Anon everyone loves conformation bias I don't know why you wrote so much to say that
>>
>>399816
>Donald
>>399823
>Donald
>>399825
>Donald

I remember wondering which board here was the most like reddit. I think /news/ probably takes the cake.
>>
>>399820
>your MGTOW forum isn't "millions of men".
your little whiny clique of bull dykes with "rape claims" isnt millions of women
LOL, the absolute state of the double digit iq she-whale
>>
>>399830
First it was actual rapes, and now it's rape claims? You're revealing your true colors more and more, MRA incel
>>
>>399828
>Anon everyone loves conformation bias
because its not conformation bias.
do you think these little sound bites you post are actual talking points?
>>
>>399827
>You have to put some effort into being this dumb
What like arguing for circumcision with complete confidence while being totally against it?
>>
>>399831
>First it was actual rapes, and now it's rape claims?
that was the joke stupid
is your head just so dense from all that blubber?
>>
>>399834
>i-it's just a joke bro
typical cowardly MRA response
>>
>>399833
>What like arguing for circumcision with complete confidence while being totally against it?

Maybe this sentence made sense to you, but it sure doesn't make sense to me.
>>
>>399806
There really isn't rn. I can understand why you'd think that, but the reality is that it's too much politics for the SC. It's a state's rights issue and it'll be waved off as such. It will also likely take years for a ruling.
>>399812
Why even respond to him? Obvious low quality bait is obvious
>>
>>399836
>typical cowardly MRA response
typical dumb strawmaning bull-dyke response
>>
>>399829
>I don't understand this meme from when devs would post on /v/
Go home
>>
>>399830
>Its about false rape reports
Every
Single
Time
Every single fucking time.
>>
>>399841
>going to /v/

Yikes.
>>
>>399838
Supporting banning abortion because Male circumcision isn't illegal doesn't make much sense to me nor does being an incel but here we are
>>
>>399841
>Go home
go back to redd*t
>>399839
>Why even respond to him? Obvious low quality bait is obvious
showing how your little sound bites are not legitimate arguments is bait?
im literally doing the exact thing youre doing and you refuse to argue against me.
>EVERYONE LOVES CONFIRMATION BIAS BRO
>WOW MRA INCEL
>RAPE IZ TERRIBLE!
yea it fucking stings doesnt it? having your own garbage tactics thrown back into your face
>>
>>399845
Aw
It thinks anon is one person and broke
>>
>>399844
>Supporting banning abortion

I don't support banning abortion. I just don't care. You people don't care about me, so why the fuck should I care about you?

>nor does being an incel

Seriously, do you know what that word means?
>>
>>399842
>Every
>Single
>Time
>Every single fucking time.
no stupid, thats just what you're incorrectly inferring from the argument

the person i was arguing with responded with an ad hominem:
"your MRA forum isnt millions of men" which in no sense is an argument. I responded in the exact same way, and its really fucking telling how im the one you jumped on.
>>
>>399846
>Aw
>It thinks anon is one person and broke
so this is what defeat looks like
you tried at least
>>
>>399843
>Yikes posting acting like you can call out anything on 4chan
Cute
>>
>>399818
>well millions of men dont seem fine
Prove him wrong then, are you suggesting the super majority of American men aren't well adjusted?
>>
>>399850
>>Yikes posting acting like you can call out anything on 4chan

Shit, I'm sorry that a perfectly valid word in the English language is abused by some faggots on Twitter. I guess that means it's off-limits forever, huh?
>>
>>399852
>majority of American men aren't well adjusted?

LOL on what fucking planet are American men "well-adjusted"?
>>
>>399847
Anon. Buddy. I care about you. Seriously I do. Instead of fucking my girlfriend or trying to style beast bloody palace I'm in a Korean mafia sweatshop talking to you. I really do care about you and how broke of a person you have to be to be so mad that your parents chose to circumcise you or parents choose to circumcise their kids that you'd argue for abortion or fail to see the difference between a Male and a female in giving birth or change the subject because you think people don't care about you.

But buddy, I care. I care about you more than my girlfriend and DMCV that's saying a lot
>>
>>399852
>are you suggesting the super majority of American men aren't well adjusted?
Neither of us said the word "majority" we said millions, and that was the point; if circumcision even leaves a minority of men badly effected that could easily be several million.
but his comment was just dismissive, and non-argumentative, as well as his "they dont" for women.
>>
>>399856
Now imagine you made wacky, condescending, bullshit post to a woman with mutilated genitals.
>>
>>399853
I remember being new too.
>>399855
Where are you that the super majority of them are not because of circumcision?
>>
>>399856
>I care about you more than my girlfriend and DMCV that's saying a lot
could you imagine more of a fucking faggot post. kys.
>>
>>399857
Prove the millions then.
>>
>>399858
I still care about you. All I did is tell you how much I cared. Honestly. If you felt offended I sincerly apologize
>>
>>399859
>I remember being new too.

Been here since '07, shithead. Sorry I don't have my thumb on the pulse of every little faggy meme so I can better please your sensibilities.

>>399859
>Where are you that the super majority of them are not because of circumcision?

Pain in infancy as well as pain experienced from infant circumcision has been proven to have long-term effects on the mind. Which is understandable, since the foreskin contains the same type of nerve endings as the fingertips. Think about how much accidentally cutting a fingertip hurts, now imagine that pain amplified by a thousand and you have what 80% of American men have gone through.

>>399863
My best friend killed himself a few years ago. I hope you experience the same kind of loss in your life, and then some.
>>
>>399861
>>399810
"A 2013 systematic review found that circumcision did not appear to adversely affect sexual desire, pain with intercourse, premature ejaculation, time until ejaculation, erectile dysfunction or difficulties with orgasm. However, the study found that the existing evidence is not very good.[77] Another 2013 systematic review found that the highest-quality studies reported no adverse effects of circumcision on sexual function, sensitivity, sensation or satisfaction.[19] A 2017 systematic review and meta-analysis found that circumcision did not affect premature ejaculation.[78] When it comes to sexual partners' experiences, circumcision has an unclear effect as it has not been well studied.[79]"
"Behavioral effects have been observed following infant circumcision including changes in sleep patterns, irritability, changes in feeding, and parental bonding.[80] Some men who were circumcised as infants described their feelings about the procedure using the terms "violation, torture, mutilation and sexual assault".[81]"
literally .3 seconds on wikipedia you fucking snake
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcision#Sexual_effects
you really are irredeemable
>>
>>399865
I feel for you, Buddy. Sorry for your loss.
>>
>>399861
>Prove the millions then.
prove millions of women actually have long term effects from rape
>>
>>399866
Great. So let's force more births and circumcise more children.
>>
>>399866
>Another 2013 systematic review found that the highest-quality studies reported no adverse effects of circumcision on sexual function, sensitivity, sensation or satisfaction.[19]

I know this one, it's a literature review done by a literal circumcision fetishist and friend of a convicted pedophile. I see it get cited all the time. Amazing how much damage one pervert can do.
>>
>>399872
>I know this one, it's a literature review done by a literal circumcision fetishist and friend of a convicted pedophile. I see it get cited all the time. Amazing how much damage one pervert can do.
thats why I included the full quote
information is relatively limited and conflicting dispite what the scum fucker in the original post might say
>>
>>399871
>Great. So let's force more births and circumcise more children.
must hurt getting BTFO that hard you little subhuman
>>
>>399866
>literally .3 seconds on wikipedia you fucking snake
I didn't know asking you to prove your claim made me 'a fucking snake'.
That said your article doesn't support your claim.
The only thing that does is your last sentence, which is locked behind a paywall, and seems a little over inflated. I can't see what they define as infants age wise. So really all you've done is tell me it's better to perform it right away than waiting, as what you've linked says
>circumcision did not appear to adversely affect sexual desire, pain with intercourse, premature ejaculation, time until ejaculation, erectile dysfunction or difficulties with orgasm.
So where are those millions again?
>>
>>399866
one more side effect is chronic anti-semitism
use banks and legal loopholes to embezzle money... meh at least it's not at gunpoint
mess with people's junk... dude that's hate fuel
>>
>>399873
Nah, I appreciate what you were doing. The original idiot just did like what every generic braindead American does on this subject and just did a search for "does circumcision affect sexual pleasure" and snagged the first result that supported their feelings that they could find, not even paying attention to the fact that the "study" was thrown together by Chinese doctors to promote a Chinese-made adult circumcision device.
>>
>>399877
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21672947

"CONCLUSIONS:

Circumcision was associated with frequent orgasm difficulties in Danish men and with a range of frequent sexual difficulties in women, notably orgasm difficulties, dyspareunia and a sense of incomplete sexual needs fulfilment. Thorough examination of these matters in areas where male circumcision is more common is warranted."
>>
>>399880
This is what mental health issues looks like.

Truly an honor to witness the autism. Please continue. It’s like a treatise on i celibacy.
>>
>>399877
Also, your bullshit study compared adult intact men with adult men who were recently mutilated. Getting mutilated as an adult is much different than getting mutilated as an infant: more penis to work with and general anesthesia is possible to use. Not to mention the foreskin has to be ripped from the head of the penis in infancy before it can be amputated, which can result in permanent damage to the glans. I have a piece of my glans missing that is most likely due to that.
>>
>>399877
>I didn't know asking you to prove your claim made me 'a fucking snake'.
I that was more-so for the original poster who intentionally presented disputed evidence as if it was not. And as if YOUR claim has ever been thoroughly proven. how incredibly fucking disingenuous.
>The only thing that does is your last sentence, which is locked behind a paywall, and seems a little over inflated. I can't see what they define as infants age wise.
wow nice confirmation bias (exactly the response I got when I questioned a study btw)
and actually its the last two sentences. did you miss the fucking "unclear" part brainlet?
>I can't see what they define as infants age wise. So really all you've done is tell me it's better to perform it right away than waiting, as what you've linked says
that conclusion of yours hardly makes sense
>cant see the age
>better do it early
>>399877
>So where are those millions again?
thats actually a disputed statement, which you would be able to tell if you had any reading comprehension at all, which was the point I was making.
>>
>>399883
If you run into an argument, feel free to send it my way. R/politics buzzwords don't work here.
>>
>>399883
>This is what mental health issues looks like.
so this is what it looks like when a redditor gets btfo; he ad-hominems and calls people incel
tell me about the MRA forums again anon
>>
>>399886
I'm not making any claims.
I'm still curious what this has to do with underage girls having to bear the burden of child birth. I think you need to breath and re-read my post. These are two separate issues.
>>
>>399890
>I'm not making any claims.
oh so youre not disputing my argument then
>I'm still curious what this has to do with underage girls having to bear the burden of child birth.
wow seems like you made one here
dont know why you think i was particularly disputing that one, or that Im supposed to be constantly aware of a claim you made in the beginning of the thread.
>I think you need to breath and re-read my post.
I think you need to learn how to read
>>
>>399875
BTFO how? I don't particularly have a stance on circumcision as my knowledge onnit is lacking and I'm not in a rush to find out about it. Maybe I'll raise it on my list my I won't. Regardless of the information I receive from that studying I'm not retarded enough to take that information and then support a policy that is going to increase circumcision when I'm against it. It'd make me look like a mentally broken incel
>>
>>399890
>These are two separate issues.

Not him but they are much more similar than you think and the reason for that leads me to an explanation that I have offered in this very thread multiple times already: they both concern autonomy. A-U-T-O-N-O-M-Y. Women's autonomy is being threatened and there is a nationwide dialogue about it right now. Men have zero autonomy, are considered the property of their parents for them to cut off as much of their penises as they please as they have been for 150+ years, and comparatively much fewer people are talking about it. You cannot talk about one without talking about the other.
>>
>>399891
I asked for a citation on millions of Americans being adversely effected by circumcision. I still don't know what that has to do with underage child births.
>>
>>399894
So instead of supporting and wanting better sex education which includes learning the anatomy of males and females, genital mutilation, how to prevent pregnancy, STDs, etc. You'd rather support parents losing the autonomy they have over their own bodies and that of a baby so they cam gain the autonomy to circumcise the baby when its born because of public knowledge and perception of circumcision?

Are you retarded?
>>
>>399892
>BTFO how? I don't particularly have a stance on circumcision as my knowledge onnit is lacking and I'm not in a rush to find out about it.
because whoever was the little scum-fuck who posted the original claim in a common leftist fashion that the science is settled seems pretty thoroughly debunked.
this isnt even a big issue for me, I honestly dont really care about abortion or circumcision. but how dismissive the cunts in this thread have been is just infuriating.
>Regardless of the information I receive from that studying I'm not retarded enough to take that information and then support a policy that is going to increase circumcision when I'm against it
what? you mean because births would increase if abortion is banned? what an absolutely stupid position.
the two issues are mutually exclusive you fucking moron.
>mentally broken incel
woman/redditor detected
>>
>>399896
>I asked for a citation on millions of Americans being adversely effected by circumcision.

http://www.circumcisionharm.org/results.htm

http://www.circumcisionharm.org/gallery1.htm

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1046/j.1464-410X.1996.85023.x

"Conclusion

The amount of tissue loss estimated in the present study is more than most parents envisage from pre‐operative counselling. Circumcision also ablates junctional mucosa that appears to be an important component of the overall sensory mechanism of the human penis."

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1464-410X.2006.06685.x

"CONCLUSIONS

The glans of the circumcised penis is less sensitive to fine touch than the glans of the uncircumcised penis. The transitional region from the external to the internal prepuce is the most sensitive region of the uncircumcised penis and more sensitive than the most sensitive region of the circumcised penis. Circumcision ablates the most sensitive parts of the penis."
>>
>>399899
Wow you are retarded
And literally just mad as all hell. The only reason you derailed the thread is because you got triggered? Lmaoo
>>
>>399896
>I still don't know what that has to do with underage child births.
youre the one who keeps bringing this up dumbass not me
>I asked for a citation on millions of Americans being adversely effected by circumcision.
I said "could" which seems to be at least somewhat supported by the evidence. something like at least~75 million men are circumcised in the united states alone. if even a small percentage have adverse effects that could still be several million.
>>
>>399901
>Wow you are retarded
>And literally just mad as all hell. The only reason you derailed the thread is because you got triggered? Lmaoo
lol so I was right, you actually were BTFO
>>
>>399902
>The measure of depression and suffering in the US is by that of the penis
Well actually that's true I'd think the world would be a better place or atleast the US if everyone was more sexually informed and active. Incels have a tendency to ruin everything and MGTOWs are just Incels with a different stripe
>>
>>399903
Yeah you BTFO'd me by taking by far the most retarded position I have ever seen regarding abortion congratulations
>>
>>399898
Americans are sub-human retards, so they won't stop abusing their boys until the law says they can't or they have to start paying exorbitant fees out of pocket to do it. Circumcision used to be common in the UK, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand. Know why it isn't anymore? Not because of a mass awakening of the average person but because the medical establishments in those countries took steps to make it so people had to go out of their way to get it. Our medical establishment is so corrupt and infiltrated by a certain generally sociopathic ethnic group that it would never in a million years consider doing anything ethical.
>>
>>399906
I too am mad about the joo
>>
>>399906
>Our medical establishment is so corrupt and infiltrated by a certain generally sociopathic ethnic group that it would never in a million years consider doing anything ethical.
Beauty companies are an ethnic group?
>>
>>399909
No it's the Jews anon
>>
>>399908
>>399909
Look up Andrew Freedman and Edgar Schoen.
>>
>>399905
>Yeah you BTFO'd me by taking by far the most retarded position
says the anon who cant write in proper grammar
LOL
thanks for the (you)
>>399904
>Well actually that's true I'd think the world would be a better place or atleast the US if everyone was more sexually informed and active.
lol what is this, you wanted evidence and there it is. Dont know why you're resorting to the incel meme. I could just make the same dumb claims about female rape.
>>
>>399915
Well Incels are categorized by their incessant feelings of persecution and are often focused around men and women particularly sex. They easily believe conspiracies and often say some of the most retarded things regardless of the merit of their point if it had any in the first place
>>
>>399919
thanks for the ad hominem post
maybe stop being such a sore loser and maybe men will want to date you again
>>
>>399920
Don't worry anon I'm getting all the dick I need. Hopefully you'll get a lil of what you've been missing in life
>>
>>399913
The guy with a twitter account or the previous owner of the giants in 1915?
>>
>>399923

http://jewishweek.timesofisrael.com/fleshing-out-change-on-circumcision/

"I circumcised him myself on my parents’ kitchen table on the eighth day of his life. But I did it for religious, not medical reasons. I did it because I had 3,000 years of ancestors looking over my shoulder." -Andrew Freedman, Member of AAP Circumcision Task Force 2012

http://www.jweekly.com/article/full/61692/both-sides-of-the-debate-two-jewish-doctors-offer-opinions-on-circumcision/

“It’s like apple pie. It’s part of being American.” -Edgar J. Schoen, 1987 head of AAP Circumcision Task Force

"It's as if you went to a lung-cancer resource center and they had nothing at all about cigarettes. What the hell is going on? Why is everyone ignoring the elephant-sized foreskin in the living room? " -Daniel T. Halperin, HIV researcher

https://intaction.org/history-of-circumcision/

“It is a well known fact that the foreskin is a frequent factor in masturbation, not alone in children but in adults as well…Circumcision has become recognized as a most effective remedy.” -Abraham L. Wolbarst, MD, author of "Universal circumcision as a sanitary measure" from 1914
>>
>Anon supports an 11 year old rapist victim giving birth to her rapist's baby at extremly significant risk to her and the babies health

This is the autism I come to this board for
>>
>>399934
Is that anon you? Because nobody else here has said that.
>>
>>399935
Sorry forgot to add
>Because of circumcision
>>
>>399935
>Because nobody else here has said that.
Are you blind? Scroll up past the incel autism to see the moralfag and anti-choice autism
>>
>>399936
>>399938
Nobody arguing against circumcision has argued in FAVOR of anti-abortion measures, just that it's hard to care about abortion when men aren't even given the courtesy of getting to choose whether or not they have a foreskin.
>>
>>399940
Fuck off already
>>
>>399958
>Stop making sense! reee
>>
>>399965
Yes you've cried for attention for several hours congratulations
>>
>>399958
No.
>>
>>399499
We are star stuff. But I don’t see quantum matter bearing personhood
>>
>>397929
This. Abortions are allowed by the Catholic Church, in order to preserve the life of the mother. Unless she consents to want to have the children (which, to consent, would require her to be of fully-mentally developement, which a child isn't necessarily fully-mentally developed)
>>
>>397919
Well technically if a fetus is a person so too is a child, meaning children are subject to the law and can be tried as adults

It also means children can work so until I see arguments for child labor, conservatives are full of shit
>>
Teach, protect, and watch over your kids, and they won't bear any rapist's child. It's common sense. If you're a bad parent, then you bare the consequences. Simple as.
>>
>>397919
"grave bodily harm" usually applies in this situation... I've heard of a similar case though where the doctors decided abortion would be more harmful to the girl than childbirth and she actually had the baby.
>>
>>397978
Condoms prevent fertilisation, dumbass. The pill doesn't.



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