https://www.newsweek.com/anti-vaccine-italian-government-sacks-entire-health-expert-board-1242759The vaccine-skeptic Italian government has sacked every member of the country’s health advisory board, raising fears that the populist administration will sideline accepted science and inflict long-lasting damage on public health.Health minister Giulia Grillo removed all 30 members of the Higher Health Council Monday, arguing it is time to “give space to the new,” The Guardian reported.The council is the country’s most prominent body of technical-scientific experts, who advise the government on health policy.Grillo is a member of the Five Star Movement (MS5)—the senior party in Italy’s ruling coalition, which has previously supported unproven cures for cancer and promised to overturn laws making vaccines mandatory for children.Explaining her decision, Grillo wrote on Facebook, “We are the #governmentofchange and, as I have already done with the appointments of the various organs and committees of the ministry, I have chosen to open the door to other deserving personalities.”Among those removed from their posts is former council president, Roberta Siliquini, who also serves as the head of the school of hygiene and preventive medicine at the University of Turin.Siliquini told The Guardian: “We are worried about why they have decided to remove people who were selected due to their experience and competencies at the highest level.” She added, “We are also worried about who will make up the next council and especially if the nominations are politically motivated.”
>>322658The members of the board usually serve three-year terms, and it is unusual for them to be cut short, especially with such little explanation. Grillo wrote that some members “could be reappointed,” but “not the leaders…who must have the trust of and be in full harmony with the minister in charge.”Siliquini said she had never met Grillo since the new minister was appointed six months ago. “We’re the organisation that helps them, from a scientific and technical point of view, to make decisions on policy,” Siliquini explained. “But she never asked us anything during these six months, which was probably a strong signal.”MS5 came to power earlier this year on a wave of anti-establishment sentiment, allying with the far-right Lega Nord party to lead an unlikely populist coalition. The party’s health care policy has prompted concern by seemingly dismissing swathes of accepted science and instead embracing conspiracy theories and fraudulent medicine.MS5 has previously lent support to a controversial stem-cell therapy—known as Stamina—promoted by psychologist Davide Vannoni, who claimed it could perform miracles and cure diseases including cancer. Experts since claim to have proven the therapy is a scam.Current Prime Minister Giuseppe Conte also has links to the scam, having represented a the family of a girl with a degenerative disease in 2013, calling on the government to allow her access to Stamina treatment.MS5—then still a burgeoning force—seized on the debate to accuse the establishment of withholding new medical treatments from ordinary citizens, despite having no evidence that the method even worked.
>>322659The party’s vaccine-skepticism has also been well-publicized. During this year’s election campaign, MS5 promised to reform a law that made 10 vaccines mandatory and required a doctor’s note to confirm the injections. In June, Grillo said parents could “self-certify” that their children had been vaccinated and waved the requirement for doctor confirmation.This caused chaos when the new school year began in September, with thousands of children with compromised immune systems forced to stay at home for fear that classmates had not been vaccinated against potentially deadly diseases.But a fresh measles epidemic has forced the government into a U-turn. Authorities have now said the vaccines obligation will remain in place and have called for 800,000 infants, children and young adults to be injected against the virus, The Telegraph noted.
>>322660>But a fresh measles epidemic has forced the government into a U-turn.As I was reading this I thought "Inb4 and easily preventable outbreak" and then this line came up. Kek
I hope somebody is keeping track of a record leading up until the eventual downfall of society. Maybe if we can find some sort of marker in society we can predict it and avoid it generations from now.
>>322674>some sort of markerPretty sure that has been and remains hoardes of diseased foreigners invading.
>>322658It's a win-win.If everything ends up fine than there's no problem.If everyone dies then we can use them as an example and learn from their mistakes.
Geez...All that’s left is to ban anything Charles Darwin related and a few Wikipedia Articles for “Reasons of Inciting Religious Hatred”.
>>322674Nazis and commies did it all on their owns.
>>322658Time to kick back and watch Italy sink to 3rd world status. No doubt they'll blame immigrants when people get sick instead of their retard conspiracies.
>>322740What does this have to do with America?
>>322658>he council is the country’s most prominent body of technical-scientific experts, who advise the government on health policyIt was believable until that sentence. Failed shilling has failed.
>>322658Wait wait wait, hold on. Are these guys actually anti-vaxxers or have they only>promised to overturn laws making vaccines mandatory for childrenI'm not sure they should be able to make anything mandatory for citizens' children. Don't get me wrong, I understand the importance of vaccines and that nobody wants to live around that one family that all get the Spanish Flu because they refused to vaccinate their 8 year old, but conversely, any world that sets a precedent for the government being able to FORCE a parent to put anything in their own child's body has gone WAY out of line and should all be burned at the stake for the betterment of man. Educate your population and let them make informed decisions, don't write shit into law that gives the government that control.
>>322658Imagine if you could get the retards to WANT to self-sterilize? Why not tell them everything that is good for them is bad?All the retards and their offspring will die off from the simplest of things now in Italy! Bye bye!
>>322719Already happening, read the comments above yours.
>>322742> major European nation becoming incubator for global pandemicThink organs in a body man. A kidney just got infected.
>>322767You really don't understand anything. Your very assumption of what "education" means proves that education doesn't take well enough to obviate regulation. Doubly ironic since that's exactly what tradition is, rules people follow for good but often unknown reason. The whole reason you don't understand well enough to agree with the policy is why we need such policies. The price of specialists is trust. A society of generalists can't function. Basically your cultural view is literally cancerous. It's like a liver cell rejecting growth regulations leading to disease and tumors.
>>322792If your nation, or any nation, wasn't so convinced that a society of completely self-sufficient citizens would turn around and immediately vote them out of office, education might actually work. A lot of western nations have education systems very deliberately engineered to make citizens as reliant and co-dependant on the state as possible because self-sufficient, well educated citizens often turn right around and start wondering why they need an inept, bloated government calling all the shots.Now, I'm not saying regulation isn't needed, because it is. There will always, ALWAYS be drooling, mouth-breathing retards in society. There's no getting away from it, and even if there were, there will always be educated people that fall in the lower percentiles or are outliers for a variety of reasons. People do need rules and a structure to smack them upside the head sometimes and say "Hey, do the right thing, you mong." in order for society to work.That doesn't mean I think any government can be trusted to force people to put shit that they have a vested interest in pushing into their children. There's a huge conflict of interest there. Nobody on this planet other than you is ever going to give two whits about your snot-spewing, shit-generating little demon. They're YOUR kids, and the only person who cares about the survival of your genes is you. To everyone else, those kids, your family and you are competition. Everyone isn't really all friends here in the real world. So we have to preserve the rights of parents to look after their own progeny, because no state apparatus can be trusted to care - and why should they?
>>322685>learn from their mistakesAmericans never learn from their mistakes.
>>322806The irony with these self-sufficient wet dreams is they're just putting themselves as the government instead if their neighbor.Literally just replace the "government" with "me". Suddenly all those ideas make sense and would work if "I" called the shots.You know what we call a group of self-sufficient people? A society.Stop pretending the government is some "other".
>>322854Not some "other". Just made up of other people.All people have an agenda and it simply doesn't match up with yours. I thought you'd have understood that by now. We're all trying to get something out of being alive and doing what we're doing, and what I want and need just isn't going to match up with what you want and need, outside of the vague fact that we both need to breathe air and eat food and so on. We're not going to necessarily be breathing the SAME air or eating the SAME food. By the same token, the people in your government are always going to have different wants and needs than the people voting for them. If you want something done your way, you're going to have to run for office yourself and convince others of your point of view. But it is still YOUR point of view.
>>322767>Educate your population and let them make informed decisions, don't write shit into law that gives the government that control.Except the only way to actually make vaccines work is the inoculate everyone, and the only way to make everyone do something in any society is to...write a law to force them to do so. That's basically how laws work, because there are a lot of mouth-breahing morons around, and even worse, complete tools who think they have it all figured out and talk out of their asses (like you are, sir or madam).Imagine the government not forcing people to pay taxes and instead "educating its population and letting them make informed decisions". Said government would be bankrupt the next week.
>>322864People having to contribute to the society in which they live and the government dictating what you must put into the bodies of your children are two entirely different subjects and I'm appalled you would even try to conflate the two.
>>322866They're really not that different, though. You putting vaccines in your shitty kids is equally contributing to the society in which they live in as the taxes your paying. Your taxes help build roads and pay for firemen. Your kids' vaccines help people around them not fucking dying of a long-forgotten disease.Also, the only thing the government gains from vaccines is people not dying needlessly. In your other posts you're implying they're somehow turning profits from that, but that's also pants-on-head retarded. The pharmaceutical industry profits from it, sure. But that's another debate.
>>322867There are a million ways to profit from having defacto control over something or someone whose interests are not the same as yours and being able to force your interests to be considered over theirs. Ask the people of any nation that has ever been a colony or a protectorate. Having no direct representation in your own lives really sucks, and its almost ALWAYS used to enforce standards that are definitely NOT for the betterment of the party being told what to do. This isn't a case of just vaccines, this is a case of setting a legal precedent for the government being able to plant RFID chips in your kids. Because of course, its for their own good, and the government wouldn't even be doing it if it weren't for their own good. They have nothing to gain at all from being able to tell you what you can and cannot put in your body. Nothing at all. Just a completely negligable MASSIVE COMMERCIAL GAIN. You know. Nothing at all.
>>322870>Just a completely negligable MASSIVE COMMERCIAL GAINHow, exactly, is the *government* making massive profits from vaccines, you insufferable idiot? How? They're not the ones making them. They're not the ones selling them. That's what the pharmaceutical companies do. Not the government.Also, there are already a lot of countries around the world that have made some vaccinations mandatory decades ago, and... Guess what? Absolutely nothing happened. People just got less sick. France, Spain, Italy... And the governments didn't get rich from it at all. And it didn't lead to anything horrible, like your crazy conspirationist mind imagines. So you're talking about a hypothetical catastrophic scenario for something that's actually a reality around the world since the goddamn 50's.
>>322874The government itself isn't making a dime. The people IN the government all have jobs and businesses and stakes in the country's future. It costs a lot of money to run a campaign and the vast majority of government representatives are business owners, lobbyists, lawyers or other individuals with a direct commercial interest in the free market. The PEOPLE in the government are making money from it. They really don't have to give a shit about the government not making any, or the fact that ostensibly their job is to use the government as an apparatus to serve the greater good of their constituents. They're going to use it to make a profit for themselves, just like every single person that has ever come before them and run for an office.
>>322876inb4 how is this making a profitThrough lobbying, commercial bribery and trade deals. Like always. Fuck off with your "We're all good boys here" shit. That's not how economies or governments have EVER worked. There is always a commercial interest. If there weren't, they wouldn't even want the job.>Politicians just devote time, money and effort to governing us out of the kindness of their hearts and totally not for massive commercial gain!Please.
>>322877>Through lobbying, commercial bribery and trade deals.Exactly. Except it makes absolutely no sense to single out vaccination laws as a "get rich quick" scheme for politicians, when *everything* is actually a get rich quick scheme for politicians. Nobody said they were good people. Like in any group, a lot of politicians are actually very shitty. And will use any law and any opportunity to make a profit. But if you're not screaming about housing laws being used to line the pockets of city officials, you shouldn't be screaming about vaccination laws filling their pockets. Or you should equally scream about both. And all the rest.(But also, the "everyone's evil" meme for politics is cynical and simplistic. Sometimes the governments do have their people's best interest at heart. And sometimes people want job *without* any commercial interest. Not all human beings are the same, and that goes for your rotten soul too. But that's another debate)
>>322874Its not commercial gain for the government. Let me spell it out for you. The pharmaceutical companies make thousands of vaccines every year, spend billions of dollars, and only a handful of each years' vaccines are chosen for public distribution, based on which varieties of flu and other bacterial and viral outbreaks are considered likely for that year.If a particular pharmaceutical company would like control over a portion of the market, what they need is legislation to force their product through the red tape and regulations, and then to the forefront of that selection process, which is a lot more likely if you can get some legislation passed making vaccines a REQUIREMENT instead of just a strong suggestion. All of a sudden you have a guarenteed customer base instead of a probable customer base. That's how the company makes money. They then turn around and bribe a smattering of politicians in your government with substantial millions (But not the billions or trillions they'll make from vaccine distribution over the next decade) and now the people in your government have made money from the deal. What part of this is even a little unrealistic to you?
>>322874He's American, to him corporations ARE the government.Understand that, and his complaints make sense. Misguided, but true with some tweaking.
>>322880No, No they don't. Governments are bodies of random strangers that you elected based on soundbytes and false campaign promises. They don't even know who you are. How can they have your best interests at heart? At BEST they can have a preconcieved notion of having the NATION'S best interests at heart, but they're still going to have a personal agenda for how that should be accomplished that does not line up with what other people working different jobs in a different part of the country need. To even act like politicians acting for the greater good of their voters is even POSSIBLE is ridiculous. They don't just not try, it can't even be done.
>>322754What exactly was made unbelievable by that sentence?
>>322883>How can they have your best interests at heart?Because you not dying is one of the interest they share with you.The government of a country in which everybody dies is not viable in any way.Also, stop talking about "the government's interest vs the people's interest" like you're saying very profound things. You're just spouting nonsense. Ayn Rand is not a respectable philosopher and you should not take her seriously.
>>322881You're not saying anything new or interesting. Nobody said this sort of thing wasn't happening. But it doesn't happen ONLY for big pharma. It happens for pretty much ALL lobbies. So there is no reason to single big pharma in this case. That's what I'm saying. In the case of the US, the NRA is actually way more detrimental to people's health thant any pharmaceutical company, so why don't you rant about them?
>>322887Everybody isn't going to die. Only some people that the people in the government have no commercial interest in.Does it help you if I say "The people in the government" every single time? Because that's what I meant and we've only gone over this like four times now. Your government is an organization made up of people who don't have a vested interest in your survival. Full stop. They have a vested interest in THEIR survival, and you are either competition or not on the radar.
>>322890>Everybody isn't going to die.When they're vaccinated, no they aren't. But when they aren't... Vast swathes of them do. Or at least dig huge holes in the social security system (when you're trying to cure them). A huge number of people dying is not in the interest of any government, or people in the government, if you like that better.Also, seriously, stop talking like you're a sub-character in an edgy conspiracy novel for 14 year olds. It's pathetic. "you are either competition or not on the radar." Jesus fucking Christ. The cringe...
>>322888Seriously. The fucking sugar lobby is one of the worst and yet I never hear anyone giving them anywhere near the kind of shit big pharma, monsanto or the NRA gets.
>>322890>we follow your logic>government can no longer force kids to get vaccines>within a year 40,000 kids under the age of five a dead due to new outbreak of whooping cough, 800,000 more are in hospital, and every new baby born now has severe birth defectsHahahhaha that sure showed the government!!
>>322905>840,000 dead out of a world population of 3.2 Billion.>Oh god, its the end of modern civilization!The Spanish Flu killed something like 40,000,000 people and all of these modern nations, which were still modern nations when the Flu hit (Four times) are still all here and nothing has collapsed. Governments can ignore a lot without getting forced out of office and its hard to blame a plague on a government even if they have a direct hand in making it worse or spreading it in the first place, as a lot of governments did with the Spanish Flu (I.E., shipping infected soldiers to the front, refusing to allow quarantines and even spreading outright disinformation on the Spanish Flu even being a thing, all for the sake of the war effort)Look, its not cringe, its just the truth. All human beings are in competition for survival and resources on this planet. Period. We may all act civilized and like a society is one big unified thing, but we aren't and it isn't. People will, and do, still kill other people over food, clean water, a woman, or even just an uncontrollable burst of anger. That's life. You make yourself comfortable with that.
>>322907I think you have a death wish, man. Nothing else could explain why you don't think new epidemics are bad or why you keep parroting about how the world is some Darwinian war against all by all. I suggest you look into this, the world isn't as malevolent as you might think.
>>322910Of course epidemics are bad. They've always been bad. They've also always, ALWAYS been preceeded by a gigantic wave of "It doesn't exist" and "Its not my problem". Because nobody has to care until they're forced to, and by then its already too late. The entire premise for you arguing that governments should have this kind of control is based on what happens when governments have this kind of control: apathy and misuse, not efficient treatment.
>>322910When governments have control over vaccinations, you're going to find that its about the money and whatever seems like a good idea at the time, just like it is when private citizens have control over vaccinations. You can't force the people in the government to follow the law any more than making a law will force people in the country to get their vaccinations. All it will do is give the people in the government more control over what you put in your body. Its not actually going to be used just to enforce vaccinations.
>>322915Having everyone immunised to disease outbreaks is literally effecient treatment though; in fact YOU'RE the one arguing for inefficient treatment because if it wasn't mandatory many people would opt out, which would ruin the efficacy of the treatments.
>>322919People are still going to opt out. They'll just have to pay a fine (Read: A Tax that your government doesn't have to use the T-Word for) each time they violate the law.
>>322918You do realise that government policies exist because they work, right? And look, I'm not even saying that a lot of corruption doesn't exist, but you're making it seem like government literally never does anything helpful, which is a fiction. Governments are our way of solving collective problems that the market can't alone. Just because the potential for corruption exists, that doesn't mean it by definition means anything the government does is corrupt. That's a logical fallacy.
>>322920The more we minimise people opting out, the greater our collective security against diseases is. Sure, there are probably going to be a couple of hicks who refuse to let their kids go within 100 feet of anything resembling civilisation that's how much they hate the government, but if you made vaccinations optional that "couple of hicks" would turn into "30% of the urban population", which would drastically increase the risk.
>>322907>Look, its not cringe, its just the truth. All human beings are in competition for survival and resources on this planet. Period.Oooooh, I bet you get all the ladies, Edgelord.Seriously though, your view of the world is silly and extremely narrow. And, ultimately, very sad. You must have a pitiful life to think like this, and I honestly feel bad for you.
>>322685I can agree.>>322807This is sadly true.
Who let the libertarian out of his cage?
>>322807>Article is about Italy>Somehow make this about America???
>>322685Disease outbreaks aren't a matter of if, it's when, which is why vaccines are so important to public health. You shouldn't be so laissez faire about it.
>>323336America is named after an italian
>>323136"We"(the rest of the world, which SURPRISE includes america)"Them"(the country subject)Of those "we", only country still bassackwards on almost everything is america.If you're gonna blame someone for bringing America into this, blame the one quoting op.
>>323336Typical yurotard obsession. Just ignore it.
>>322742The mind of a Trumpist, man. A classic case of fleeing though none pursue.