The automobile took over because the legal system helped squeeze out the alternatives.In a country where the laws compel the use of cars, Americans are condemned to lose friends and relatives to traffic violence. My childhood neighbor was a varsity student-athlete, the president of the junior class, and the most popular girl in school. One day in September 1995, a car crash took her life. She had been driving home on the freeway when her car went across the median and collided with one going the opposite direction, killing both drivers. In our small city in Michigan—like almost everywhere in America—driving is the price of first-class citizenship. We never stopped to ask whether a different bargain was possible. Since her passing, approximately 1 million more Americans have been killed in car crashes.In America, the freedom of movement comes with an asterisk: the obligation to drive. This truism has been echoed by the U.S. Supreme Court, which has pronounced car ownership a “virtual necessity.” >As I detail in a forthcoming journal article, over the course of several generations lawmakers rewrote the rules of American life to conform to the interests of Big Oil, the auto barons, and the car-loving 1 percenters of the Roaring Twenties. They gave legal force to a mind-set—let’s call it automobile supremacy—that kills 40,000 Americans a year and seriously injures more than 4 million more. Include all those harmed by emissions and climate change, and the damage is even greater. As a teenager growing up in the shadow of Detroit, I had no reason to feel this was unjust, much less encouraged by law. It is both.It’s no secret that American public policy throughout the 20th century endorsed the car—for instance, by building a massive network of urban and interstate highways at public expense.https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/07/car-crashes-arent-always-unavoidable/592447/
No shit, it's substituted and ham-stringed capitalism
>>1358245What a bunch of utter and complete horseshit, which by the way is just your highly biased, skewed """opinion""".>poorfag fringies and their irrational car-hate
>>1358249it's extremely bad for the environment would you at least concede that?
>>1358249Not an argument.
I agree OP. Several people reading this thread will die in a car accident, statistically. I hate cars and driving
>>1358245This is just preaching to the choir tier shit
>>1358249>muh shitboxWho are you impressing? A goat herder from Mali? Get back to me when you have a job and can afford to live somewhere nice (bike lanes and public transportation)
Do y'all think if we all called our congressmen that we could get at least more public transportation funding to make bike lanes on highways, or something cool like that?
>>1358301>bike lanes on highwaysWouldn't you rather have separated bike paths so cars aren't going by you at highway speeds?
>>1358302Sorry, that's what I meant. But do you think /n/ could get some traction for it?
I'm not sure what the solution is, but I think a good first step is to develop empathy and compassion for those people who are essentially slaves: they must constantly give a large portion of the fruits of their labor to the automobile that owns them for as long as they live, and they are not free to choose otherwise. So trying to remake our cities to be places where people aren't forever dependent on one mode of travel isn't something we should do because we hate cars, but instead because we cherish human liberty and want to live in a society that encourages people to live flourishing lives.
Came to see screeching cagers. Was not disappointed.
>>1358245>She had been driving home on the freeway when her car went across the median and How are cars at fault here?
>>1358245Holy SHIT this article is filling me with righteous furyCOPS WANT DANGEROUSLY HIGH SPEEDS because the streets are too safe and slow for speed traps??? What the fucking shit!!!! Is that why we have bike Lanes on 45mph (really 55mph) road??? FuckWe need to hang people for this shit
>>1358328>Holy SHIT this article is filling me with righteous furyCaring about something in The Atlanticlel
>>1358301Does the call come with a sizable campaign donation?>>1358317Cars aren't, but a culture that is too permissive of poor operation of cars is. The bar for getting licensed in the US should be much higher than it is, but because we've structured every facet of our society around having access to a car, denying someone a license is essentially denying them the right to make a living and put a roof over their head and food on the table. Driving should be a privilege, but it's effectively a right, and it's constantly leading to shit like nearly-dead boomers who are incapable of driving getting behind the wheel of a truck, smooshing entire families, and not being punished.
>>1358245Love how even when writing critically about cars, Americans never blame the drivers, only the cars.>car crash took her life>car went across the medianNo, SHE caused her death.
>>1358356>>1358317Kek, that delusion.Her car was hit by another, which caused hers to go across the median, then die.If you actually read the article you might have an opinion worth a shit.
>>1358330He's a law professor at a prestigious school, writing an article about law.You're a butthurt retard with no domain knowledge.
As much as I dislike cars this guy is knocking big yards and low population density because it can't be serviced by busses, a type of carMaybe I'm just not very bright.He's clearly raising important issues.>>1358367Me too but I can at least get behind the man with the degree.Self criticism is always awesome to witness.
>>1358371Nah he's knocking legislation that forces people to have yards, and he's pointing out that American states are starting to rethink single-family zoning (rightfully so).Maybe you should actually read the article.
>>1358330Hey I like the Atlantic, it's not too political. The Atlantic, Forbes, and Bicycle Retail And Industry News.. that's all you need
>>1358347We could just get a couple bike companies to hop on, maybe some fitness companies, and eco friendly groups to hop on.
>>1358376Ah, I love how cagetrolls always appear when people start making too much sense.
>>1358379I'm sorry? I just want bike paths bro.
>>1358393>Dunno I can't imagine the possiblity of there being such a thing as too large a yard yadadamean?What's absolutely ridiculous is developments where the houses are 5x the size it needs to be with almost 0 yard.>>1358347It's hard to systemically assure responsibility. I wonder if the girl who died in the beginning of the article was trying to commit suicide. There isn't much explanation of what happened.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WINwa7XxbygPic semi related
>>1358245Replace all roads with narrow gauge steam railways>simpler design than a car, can be fixed by a dead monkey if necessary>lightweight, locomotives weigh barely more than your average SUV but can carry orders of magnitude more people>quicker to lay a road than with asphalt, tracks can and were often laid down to new destinations within hours >top speeds just about around the ETA of a car in morning rush hour traffic, but a vastly higher carrying capacity>rolling stock so light you can just pick it up and carry it somewhere else if you need to (no seriously, when they derail you just hop out and lift them back up, it was common practice)>virtually no way to have an accident, vehicles so small and light that even if there was the rare error they can just put on the brakes and bump into each other with little more than a mild headache for everyone involved and maybe some new buffers>machine so simple that all you need to get it moving is anything remotely flammable and water>cute as fuckWhy do we even waste our time with paved roads again?
>>1358374>Hey I like the Atlantic, it's not too political.bad bait
>>1358401It's all just progress for progress' sakePersonally I think wheels give man an unfair advantage over competing species and we should revert back to the heyday of Birkenstocks and chanclas.
>>1358406ALL FUCKING TRIPFAGS MUST FUCKING HANG
>>1358398>Thomas Sowell quoteskys
>>1358406Being bipedal already gave us a long-distance transport advantage. No other species has long-distance running like a humans.
Anybody else enjoy watching the cagers grasp at straws to come up with excuses? Lots of it ITTI noticed they love hyperbole and arguing in bad faith.
>>1358362>Her car was hit by anotherNo, her car was hit by another driver. Cars don't just randomly hit each other.
I just want Bike Lanes in fucking Miami. I get the idea of getting a Driver's License, but why would I need a car now? I don't drive anywhere far anyways. It's a lot smarter to just get a Moped or something.
>>1358308Convincing people that cars are actually not the freedom-mobiles they think they are is the most difficult part of modifying policy. Multimodal transportation is much better. More options and safer. The elderly can ride a train, but many can't drive (safely) for example.
>>1358245>Squeezed out the alternativesThe automobile took over because, well, look at a fucking map. America is big. Its really quite absolutely huge. You have to have a way of getting from place to place - planes weren't ready yet as we begun to industrialize, so our major options were the train and the automobile.You'll notice we haven't actually neglected trains, either. Railroads criss-cross the entire country. The problem there is that domestic passenger railroads are really more of a service than a moneymaker when compared to what you can make from a railroad moving for heavy industry - each person can hardly afford to pay what you can make from adding another oil car or another box car full of consumer electronics, so on. The profit motive drove consumers from the rails and onto the roads, and that had nothing to do with the government in and of itself, it had to do with private entities buying up the railroads. e.g. JP Morgan.>Lose friends and relatives...And here comes the crux of the issue. You don't even want to discuss cars, or economic impact, or even the politics of the issue. What you want to discuss is other people having something you don't have, and how dangerous that thing is because you don't have it. Do you honestly expect people to walk or take a bus on anywhere ranging from a 2 to 5 hour commute to work every day because one more person got hit by a car? Do you even realize the utter ridiculousness of the idea? That an entire society should change its ways because you had a family member die almost 25 years ago? What about all those people giving that up? Don't they have the same rights as you?>Driving is a sign of first class citizenshipActually you can buy a banger off of craigslist that'll run with a little fishing around for about $500.>American public policy......Built a network of roads so that trade can flourish and people can make it from place to place in the modern working economy on time.
This article is now the top on the atlantic. This is good news, awareness of auto supremacy and unhuman urban design really is spreading in america. Some problems may come up when this happens in such a heterogeneous society, but i believe improvment is coming to the USA in all its glory
>>1358508Think about what you just said for a second here.>Cars are not actually freedom-mobiles>Elderly can ride the train>Multimodal transportationOkay, so you want people to give up a mode of transporation that they own personally on an individual level, have complete personal control over, and can physically go almost anywhere they want to go in...For a method of transportation that is driven and owned by another person or a third party, loaded up with other people not going to the same place as you, and LITERALLY fixed on rails, so you can only go to a limited number of places. Wherever the network has been built to reach. Here in the US, that means probably only the major railheads and cities, as the US is so fuckhuge massive (Several times the size of all of Europe put together) that it would take a truly massive amount of track to actually run tracks into small towns all over. Just up here in Washington, we have something like 500 little towns scattered out in the woods with less than a population of 2,000 people. Is the state going to build tracks that run out to them too?Basically you're asking all these individuals, who have a system right now perfectly set up for individuals actually having their freedom of movement, and have them turn it in for a system that is more "Safe" and "Efficient", and you don't see the parallel between that and trading freedom for security at all? When that's... you know, exactly what you're doing?
>>1358521Most automobile usage is for local commute, this is also where most of the bad urban planning happens. For longer travel distances there are also buses and trains and airplanes.Traffic accidents are very much a reality in today's society - and the car is the transportation mean which has the biggest occurence of them. People dying just getting from place A to B shouldn't be as common.If you don't have a car, you're a sexind class citizen. It's not about social class, it's about being able to live your life (which you can't do without an automobile, hence you become second class)>Built a network of roads so that trade can flourish and people can make it from place to place in the modern working economy on time.Nice job not adressing any of his points on public policy at all
>>1358308Yep, this. I think most Americans have just never thought about infrastructure. So when you explain to them how the government subsidizes cars at the expense of everything else you need to be careful to explain why it’s beneficial to stop this system of car-dependency.You even see it in the cageposters here: none of them read studies or follow current events related to transportation. They’re completely uninformed
>>1358526>This is good news, awareness of auto supremacy and unhuman urban design really is spreading in america.You mean preaching to the choir?
>>1358508>The elderly can ride a train, but many can't drive (safely) for example.Paint with broader strokes. It's impossible
>>1358530>Stop subsidizing cars>But please subsidize rail
>>1358548I believe in small, efficient government. That's why I promote rail and transit; anything's cheaper than pissing tax dollars down the drain on car-dependency.
>>1358556Good luck with your economic contraction plan
>>1358471People keep saying that, and that humans beat horses over very long distances, and yet we routinely fail to be faster than horses, even for 300 km races: http://ultrarunninghistory.com/man-vs-horse/
>>1358527>as the US is so fuckhuge massive (Several times the size of all of Europe put together)The US including Alaska (9,834 millions km2) is smaller than Europe (10,18 millions km2), stop spreading bullshit any time soon.
Sweden is more sparsely-populated than the US.
>>1358568Not to mention that the rugged European coastline means that distances are actually longer in Europe, whereas the lower 48 are one contiguous blob. There aren't inner seas and bays. And let's not even speak about the sheer amount of European mountains, whereas the USA are fairly flat except for two mountain ranges on the hinterlands of either coast
>>1358527The US invested billions in building roads and highways. There is no reason why they can't reinvest in multi-tier rail infrastructure to connect places. So many people will commute on highway X to get from place Y to place Z. They are all going to the same city, why not just stick them all on rail? When people arrive at place Z they can take light rail, or bus, or bike or walk to their destination. Yes the "system" of roads is perfectly set up but the point is that it's a shitty system. It ruins cities, its cost ineffective, and it is built at the expense of other modes of transport and the environment.
I’m a cager in the suburbs and I support any and all kinds of transit, basically.Less cars and potholes on the road for me.
>>1358250That’s a picture of algal bloom which is believed to be caused mostly by excess agricultural runoff (think fertilizer in the water.) While it’s definitely a problem in its own way, my question is what does that have to do with the automobile?
>>1358546It's above anti trump scandals and pedo arrests, of course it's good news
>>1358255>>1358266Why would I bother to give you what you want, which is someone to argue with? You're irrelevant losers, nobody cares what you think, personal transportation like cars are king, you're nobody, and that whole """opinion""" article is absolute trash. You faggots take for granted everything automobiles have done for our civilization, plain and simple, and you're too myopic to see that.>>1358294Speak for yourself, incel fringie.>>1358250Plug-in electric cars, faggot, they're the future.
>>1358565These are Bobby Fischer's chess coaches congratulating him after winning the world chess championship of 1972Not only are horses capable of sprinting at speeds topping 40 miles per hour, they are capable of hold this speed for more than a mile. If you think that horses aren't the best form of transportation, you need to consider that the only fuel source they require is grass and watering.>>1358624>Electric cars are the futureLet's allow them to stay there because presently we're debating the present nature of the cage as a complete object, not how they could be miraculously improved to somehow become less ((toxic)) :"D
>>1358580Yeah it would be way easier to build a high-speed rail network here. And our cities are the optimal distance apart.
>>1358632>If you think that horses aren't the best form of transportation, you need to consider that the only fuel source they require is grass and watering... I just realized why Bacon is always posting horse pics ?
>>1358566Yeah when you include a big slice of Russia
>>1358571>rugged European coastlineHas nothing to do with rail systems>>1358580>There is no reason why they can't reinvest in multi-tier rail infrastructureYes there is. It would cost trillions of dollars>>1358624>Plug-in electric cars, faggot, they're the future.Not until there's a huge leap forward in battery technology, and that's ignoring the insane mining necessary for the resources needed for those batteries, but hey it happens in the third world fuck 'em right? (Nevermind that they don't improve congestion in the slightest)
>>1358632>horsesimagine the smell
>>1358645>(Nevermind that they don't improve congestion in the slightest)Dude, FLYING electric cars.>>1358639He's been trying to tell us something that could save the entire planet>>1358659Eventually you don't even notice it.
Electric personal cars don’t save an insane amount of energy (though they are an improvement). What I’m really excited about are electric/hybrid trucks and buses.And if you don’t think electrics and hybrids are the future you clearly haven’t been following the car industry.
Call me when they design a superior recumbent horse, I'm not going to risk prostate damage on some primitive upright beast
>>1358245americans should drive literal oversized burgerswhile wearing literal burgers for shoesand use literal burgers instead of cellphones
I wonder why our resident cagers put so much effort into trolling such a small board.
>>1358735Opinions contrary to your own aren't trolls
>>1358741Uniformed opinions that ignore studies/facts and spew petty insults if you criticize their lifestyle are trolls.
>>1358744>Uniformed opinionsYou get to decide what is 'uninformed.' Convenient>that ignore studies/factsEXCUSE me SIR, did you READ the ARTICLE??????????? WHERE is your SOURCE? SIR? CITE YOUR SOURCE???? SIR????>spew petty insultsThose aren't trolls. They're insults. They're meant to demean you.
>>1358697>the burger cage
>>1358645>Has nothing to do with rail systemsPlan a rail system from Madrid to Rome you jackass
>>1358735My best guess is because they know they're wrong. That's why they resort to trolling, insults, hyperbole etc.It must suck to be them: you want to force everyone into a car, but everyday new urban infill projects are announced, new pedestrian/biking/rail infrastructure, and 1/3 of American malls are dying because people don't want to drive.So they come here and hope they can shitpost as a coping mechanism.
>>1358795I guess it would depend on what cities I wanted it to stop in on the way>>1358840t. not mad
>>1358490What is bike/ped/transit infrastructure like in Miami in general?I heard Genting was trying to build a monorail and the mayor doesn't like it for some reason.
What's funny is none of the cagers read the article.
>>1358989It's from The Atlantic, why should they?Might as well read The Sun
>>1358991It's a law professor writing an article about historical law.But you didn't read so you wouldn't know.
I don't get why cities did not just leave a little bit of buffer space near major roads when they were being built. At this point in the US there is no chance of segregated bike lanes becoming a reality.
>>1358996You must live in an alternate dimension cause they’re building protected bike lanes in my city right now.
>>1358245Saw a documentary on Swedish science channel that the US actually made the first electric cars back in the end of the 1800s, the cars was mostly used in London city and could travel up toa 20 miles distance in speeds up to 20mph. Then combustion took over.
>>1358994>Shilling for the fucking Atlantic this hardGood lord dude get a grip. If we wanted to read that rag we would have.
>>1359002Yeah man fuck reading. Reading and research is for fringies. So is studying.
>>1359007Scholarly or peer-reviewed articles are for research and fringies. The Atlantic is just another magazine that caters to a particular demographic. You're in that demographic. It's unsurprising that you would agree with it.
>>1359009>Scholarly or peer-reviewed articles are for researchYou mean like this author writes? Being a law professor and all
>>1359009Don't listen to these fringies man, they're trying to suck you in with their education and research.Now be a good cager and stay AWAY from books!
>>1359011Not scholarly or peer reviewed.
>>1359016>professors don't write peer-reviewed articlesLol. I'm done here.
>>1359015>Well if you don't like transit you're just an uneducated piece of shit, completely unlike me, a college sophomore. You should be more like me you ignorant cager scumbag!Good luck changing minds after you leave academia. I used to think exactly like you. I empathize to a degree (not much though).
>>1359018The Atlantic isn't peer-reviewed. It's just a publication. Don't be surprised when some people don't want to read it.
>>1359025Lol. No wonder you don’t read, you have the reading comprehension of a 4-year-old
>>1359044If a professor writes something it's not automatically peer-reviewed or scholarly. It's just a cultural piece for a glorified blog.
>>1358989>What's funny is none of the cagers read the article.I'm not going to read all that! xDIt's not any sort of conclusive scientific fact, it's one set of conclusions out of many possible out of a set of data.Again: you fringe elements of society take what motor vehicles have done for our civilization for granted. You wouldn't have even half the things you have now or the standard of living you have now if it wasn't for them.When Henry Ford started mass producing the Model T, nobody held a gun to anyones' head to buy one, *people wanted it* so they bought it. Everything that followed follows suit. People overall like and want cars and trucks of their own. You're not going to change that no matter what outlier opinions you have or how much you whinge and cry about it. Tough shit for you if you don't like them, they're here to stay. Don't own one if you don't want to but don't expect the rest of the world to change to accomodate (You), you make yourself *irrelevant* by going against what society considers normal. FFS you may as well be Vegans, too, for all the unnecessary noise you make, you're almost as annoying as Vegans (and almost as brain-damaged).So go right ahead and keep using ridiculous terms like "cage" and "cager" and what-not, you just identify yourselves as someone not to be taken seriously, and people will steer clear of you. Enjoy your closed doors in life, I guess.
The fringies are at it again with their professors and their research and empirical data analysis. When will they learn? Cars should be the only option because I said so, that’s all the book-learnin I need.
>>1359061>professors and their researchSpoken like an undergrad. "W-well my PROFESSOR said it so it must be absolutely correct and the only course of action!"
>>1358594If it wasnt for the corn fuel the vehicle ran on, there'd be less need for the corn the fertilizer was utilized on.Checkmate.
>>1359061>he isn't willing to acknowledge that the Will of the People reigns supreme and fringe elements of society should be grateful they're tolerated at allsuck it up
1359059Solid 7.5/10 fringiepost, definitely above your recent efforts today. Good work including vegans in there as well, but you might want to further emphasise the link between being mentally ill and requiring medication to supporting public transport options - only a couple of words about being brain damaged isn't up to your usual standard, I'm afraid. Unfortunately, I just want to point out a few things, however. You don't need to use public transit if you don't want to - tough shit if you don't like it, but they're an integral part of urban transportation today and here to stay. And arguably trains and transit have benefited modern civilisation far more than private automobiles ever have, due to their contributions in facilitating the rapid transportation of goods in bulk and the unparalleled urban mobility offered by trains and trams in the early 20th century. But then again, the US only comprises ~4.2% of the world's total population - therefore by your own standards you are the real fringe elements of society. Don't expect the rest of the world to refuse to adapt to changing social, economic, environmental and demographic conditions by going against what the rest of the world considers normal. So go right ahead and keep using ridiculous terms like "fringie" and what-not, you just identify yourselves as someone not to be taken seriously, and people will steer clear of you. Enjoy being stuck in traffic for the rest of your life, I guess. In the meantime, I shall eagerly await your next post.
I wonder who employs the cageshills here.My guess is they’re used car salesmen.
>>1359135NEETs paid 25 cents a post most likely, who think having a Wal-Mart and a burger king 15 miles away is high class living, and everyone else is just poors
>>1359025The article's actually a summary of a paper he submitted to a peer-reviewed journal.Seems like cagers are incapable of learning.
>>1359249Thanks for confirming that it's not a peer-reviewed article
>>1359130>>1359135>>1359211>>1359249>>1359339seethe harder in your irrelevancy
>>1358267This. If you daily transit solution includes palpable risk of death every single day it is a failure of a system. Car reliance is absolutely unacceptable. >>1358508Two of my elderly relatives have caused car crashes with their absolute refusal to give it up. And where they live there's not any good alternative. Our system in the US sentences elderly to drive far past the point it's safe. There's a lot of people who have no business being behind a wheel but literally have no other choice where they live, the transit system is a shitmess if it exists at all. Our nation is fundamentally screwed down to its infrastructure.
>>1358521>murrka uh....big!!explain why russia and china have trains. i'll wait. the size of the entire nation is not relevent to anything. people live in x city and work in x city. Why does the size of montana say that atlanta has to be car dependent? people in/around atlanta stay in/around atlanta. LOCAL transit has NOTHING TO DO WITH the overall size. If you want to play it that way, Europe is just the US with a different name, instead of federal govt and states they have the US and remain as separate nations. people in germany don't drive to italy on a daily basis. people live and work in one place. one. you're a retard.
>>1359461>explain why russia and china have trains. i'll wait.Russki here. There are many reasons why1. Soviet union. Car costed 70 salaries of engineer or medical doctor. 70 fucking salaries (month). 2. Cargo
>cagers see an article>REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEYou're welcome to offer your own studies and articles, this is a transportation board. If you read any, that is.inb4 Randal O'Foole
>>1359461Why did China build (and continues to build) an immense limited-access highway system?
>>1359466Articles don't determine public policy. Opinions do. And telling people who aren't in lock-step with your ideas "GO READ AN ARTICLE, YOU HICK MORON" isn't going to change minds.
>>1359471Kek we knew you weren't going to read anything, you're a cager.
>>1359460>Car reliance is absolutely unacceptable.Car ownership is absolutely vital to a healthy national economy.
>>1359527And you identify yourself as one of the irrelevant people on the edge of society by using perjorative terms like 'cager', and as one of the irrelevant people all you can accomplish is to annoy the people whose minds you misguidedly want to change.Meanwhile people by large and far like and want cars even if they can't afford them. Nothing you say or do is going to change that because it's basic human nature to want advantages over others. Your worldview is so skewed however that you are incapable of seeing that car use and car ownership is overall positive for society and peoples' quality of life, therefore ironically all our verbage and rhetoric falls on ears as deaf to it as our ears are deaf to your outlier opinions on the subject. All in all the conversation is useless, we're not going to change because of reasons, you're not going to change because of reasons. At most you create an echo-chamber in places like 4chan, but they accomplish nothing but wasting of bandwidth. This, by the way, is why you are technically and functionally-speaking nothing but a troll to even discuss this subject. Even if you cannot grasp that your opinions are so far beyond merely 'unpopular', you're still a troll. Which is why you're treated the way you're treated even here, and, I highly suspect, in the real world by people at large. Your ultimate failure in life is because of this.
>>1359527DUDE, didn't you READ the ARTICLE? Would you like an ARTICLE??? READ THE ARTICLE!!!! REEEEEEEEEEAD THE ARTICLE YOU FUCKING MORON!!!!!!!!!!!>>1359531It is. All the economic contraction plans devised by /n/imbys would be suicide. Can't help but wonder if that's what they ultimately want.
>>1359531Car reliance ≠ car ownership.The majority of people don't need a car for their 9-5 commute every day. They could easily take the bus, tram, train or even ferry if it was time and cost competitive and frequent. Some people do need to own cars - say if they have to transport large goods, live in the country, etc. But the problem isn't those exceptions, it's that everyone else is being forced to drive unnecessarily because those transit options aren't available.
>>1359542You’re wasting your time trying to use any reason with him, cagers are immune to logic.
Today was an interesting day in Cagelandia, OR. One dude threatening to jump off an overpass at the intersection of I-5 and I-84 effectively shut down the transportation grid for cars and buses, while anyone on light rail or cycling was not inconvenienced at all. A great demonstration of how over-reliance on cars makes a city utterly vulnerable.
>>1359561>An extremely rare incident is what we should base future policy onThat absolute state of /n/imbys
>>1359565The point that went over your head is that it's easy to break a city's infrastructure grid by taking down a single critical intersection, all because the city is built around a single mode of transportation, with other modes an afterthought.
>>1359568>The point that went over your headIt didn't. You're making a histrionic argument that a rare event is what future policy should be dictated by when in fact people were just delayed and everything is back to normal already.
>>1359570The gridlock lasted for well over 5 hours, and was citywide, not just delaying commuters, but also emergency vehicles and services. It's possible to throw an entire system into chaos that easily, and you don't think that there's a problem with that system?
>>1359572No because the same could be said for any system. If a critical link gets taken out of service, then there will be delays. Roads, rail, airlines, electrical, internet, whatever.
>>1359573And when that happens, wouldn't you want the designers of that system to improve it so that it can better handle that outage and recover sooner? It's like when a bizarre event took down Microsoft's San Antonio datacenter, which caused their entire global infrastructure to strain and break for a few hours. It's incredibly unlikely that event will happen again, but you can bet your ass that MS is working to make sure it never will again. Same thing for when a weird glitch in one of the FAA's systems earlier this year snarled air traffic for a day.
>>1358594>>1359087>>1358624unusually high amounts are caused by what? why are we seeing it? because of extreme heat which has been the norm for years now. why has extreme heat become the norm? because carbon dioxide emissions have gone up which creates a greenhouse effectmost people in the 21st century understand simple connections like that. it's imperative that even more do in the future so that the planet isn't destroyed by oil companies. a big part of the reason the planet is being destroyed by oil companies? the fact that cars are so popular... which perfectly ties back to what OP is saying thank you very much it's been a long ride
>>1359576There's only so much you can do. The alternative is to build redundant highways, redundant rail lines, redundant airports, etc... Just not going to happen. I would say a 5 hour meltdown isn't that big of a deal and not worth worrying about. I'm sure the police and other emergency services will use information gained to tweak their response plan.
>>1359579Agricultural runoff has been a problem as long as we've been using fertilizer. It's not tied to global warming.
Oh my, funny thread.Yes, cars did a lot of good, both on a personal level and for the whole economy. And there's still plenty of reasons that cars will (and should) stay an integral part of society and economy.But this total and utter over reliance on them is harmful to anything and anyone.A car for someone living a rural live but that has to commute a bit to work or shopping? Fine. But if you're using your car to ask your neighbor to borrow some flour or to buy a single cup of starbucks, that's where the problems start.A car for going on holiday with family and a lot of luggage? Fine.A car or huge truck because you're a craftsman that has to haul a lot of tool with you for work? Fine. But why is Stacy driving a full size Ram to whole foods? She certainly isn't going to buy 1 ton of Avocados?And why is Joe Sixpack driving a similar truck the same 20 mile stretch to work every fucking day?And why is over 50% of the road surface in the city occupied by parking cars that don't have any use?>>1359536>you are incapable of seeing that car use and car ownership is overall positive for society and peoples' quality of life,But it isn't. Maybe it was the case in a few years after the war, but nowadays, except for the few cases mentioned above, it's a net negative, not only for >muh environment!!!! but for all kinds of things. e.g. mental and physical health.
>>1359059>you fringe elements of society take what motor vehicles have done for our civilization for grantedBut I am very glad of the invention of the steam locomotive? Because you couldn't possibly be inferring that the automobile had any major industrial impact on society.
>>1359621cont.Sure, I love driving a nice car along a nice country road (which I'm currently doing for my job), but to get to that road and home, I have 30 grueling minutes in city traffic, and that's just hell. It's annoying and you loose focus, thus endangering yourself and everyone around you. And even if you don't believe in air quality, you must realize that cars make noise. A lot of noise. And even if you don't believe in the science that proves that this noise is bad for health, you at least must realize that it is annoying.And no one likes being annoyed.>>1359568Sorry, but that is a stupid argument to make. Everytime someone uses the railways to an hero, the whole track gets shut down and unlike cars, a train can't simply drive a detour around the obstacle. If anything, your story could be used as a pro-car argument.
>>1359622>Because you couldn't possibly be inferring that the automobile had any major industrial impact on society.Sorry, but it had.By totally disregarding the benefits of the car and car industry, you're just as much of an uneducated retard as the guy you're arguing with.The question is just what benefits are worth keeping, and how we get rid of the many negatives.
>>1359625Cars didn't do shit. It was the railway that built the modern western world.
>>1359626Sorry, but you're just as bad as the senile boomer cagers.>It was the railway that built the modern western world.Yeah, and everything that happened after this is just a minimal change compared to the steampunk world that we'd be living in, had the ICE not been invented.You're not helping.
>>1359626>Cars didn't do shit.Cars brought food from farms
>>1358245Why do pinkos hate cars so much? Don’t get me wrong, I agree that the US is too dependent on cars. But why ban cars? Why not keep cars and instead just invest more in electric vehicles, airports and rail? That way there are alternative forms of transportation and you can still own a car if you want to. If you love trains so much that you want to ban cars, buy a fucking Lionel set and leave us car lovers alone.
It don't help that most people can't afford to live where they work.
>>1359635Cars are bad in lots of things, here are the worst parts:>space inefficiencyYou need to store cars somewhere, in every destination. It's lot of what could be useful space just wasted. You also need to use a lot of space for roads. Car centric places are a wasteland.>energy wasteMost of the energy used to move a car is used to move the car itself. You're an insignifficant part of the weight it moves. This is not the case for buses, bikes, or trains.Cars are dangerous. Millions of americans have died in car crashes (ok this might be a positive) yet people keep on worshipping the cage.It's bad use of public funds. Cars are subsidised to shit. Public highways use money that could fuel better cities.
>>1359650Again, I’m all for increased alternative transport in the cities, suburbs and rurals. But why shouldn’t I be allowed to buy a Tesla and cruise the highways? Because it doesn’t haul something? Because it’s dangerous? Wrap yourself in bubble wrap while you’re playing with your trainset.
>>1359579>so that the planet isn't destroyed by oil companiesIt won't. Electric cars. Make the NIMBYs and Sierra Club idiots STFU and develop safe nuclear power to replace the not-so-safe versions we have now. Continue to develop fusion power. Meanwhile continue to develop and deploy so-called """renewables""" like solar and wind, solar especially. Continue to develop and deploy energy storage technologies, especially electric storage cells. Fossil fuels become deprecated and phased out. End of problem, everyone wins, assuming we get off the stick and GET IT DONE, no foot-dragging.
>>1359621>But this total and utter over reliance on them is harmful to anything and anyone.*sigh*Civilization cannot function with everyone having to choose between human-powered transport, walking, or so-called """public transit""". Not only will people never accept it, it just won't work.Kill off 90% of the population of the planet and it might work. You want to try that instead? Bye-bye civilization, hello scratching in the dirt just to survive.
>>1359621>But it isn't. Maybe it was the case in a few years after the war, but nowadays, except for the few cases mentioned above, it's a net negative, not only for >muh environment!!!! but for all kinds of things. e.g. mental and physical health.Bullshit. You're myopic. You aren't looking far enough or deep enough.
>>1359622>But I am very glad of the invention of the steam locomotive? Because you couldn't possibly be inferring that the automobile had any major industrial impact on society.We aren't discussing steam trains, although they did have a major impact. But you can't replace personal motorized transportation with TRAINS, damnit. And YES, cars have had a huge net positive effect on our *civilization*, not just our *society*, and if you can't see that then you're not looking far or deep enough.Most of you complaining about cars have *confirmation bias*: you're looking for points that support your position and flatly refuse to accept anything contradictory.Of course so far as I'm concerned at least half of you, if not much more, actually own and drive cars and are just bored jackasses who are shitposting because you're mentally twisted. Good thing nothing that happens on 4chan has any bearing on the real world or public policy.
>>1359626>Cars didn't do shit.More myopia. You take for granted what they do for the average person, and you have confirmation bias therefore refuse to acknowledge anything that doesn't fit your chosen position.
>>1359650Humans are bad in lots of things, here are the worst parts:>space inefficiencyWhy can't all humans live in a 3 foot by 3 foot square of space their entire lives? Just curl up in it at night, shit and piss in a bucket, and have your dole yeast survival rations dropped to you by a drone. Human-centric """houses""" and """apartments""" and what-not are a wasteland.>energy wasteWhy do we need electric lights, heat and air conditioning, and so on? Just learn to live with the prevailing conditions like our distant ancestors did, are you weak or something? Survival of the fittest!>humans are dangerousWe fight, make war, we commit crimes, make too many babies, bad TV shows and movies, and so on. Billions of humans have died at the hands of other humans yet people still keep making more people.It's a bad use of public funds. Humans are subsidized to shit. Public spaces use money that fuel better human insect hives of 3'x3' spaces.We should ban all humans for the reasons above and allow our robot overlords to take over and use the planet instead.</mock>
>>1359658Electric cars are an improvement but they don’t solve much. They still use a comparative ton of energy, take up a lot of space and need to be parked/stored.I like the way things are going now: developers are building nice urban infill so you don’t need a car for every trip. And let’s be honest, people are buying it. They’re even paying top dollar for those new apartments, indicating they’re highly desirable
Here lies a toppled god -His fall was not a small oneWe did but build his pedestal A narrow and a tall one.
>>1359671>Electric cars are an improvement but they don’t solve much. They still use a comparative ton of energy, take up a lot of space and need to be parked/stored.So what?They're relatively new and are still being developed. Do you really think the Model T was a full aero, high-efficiency, luxury design? It was ICE Car v1.0 we're about at E-Car v1.1 right now. Give it time. Prove you're better than the average kid born in the 21st Century and show me you have some patience.People like and want PERSONAL transportation that doesn't require them to expend energy. That will NEVER change. Never, never, ever. Don't believe me? Look at the last ten thousand years of human history (i.e. all recorded history). If it wasn't machines, it was animals (including other humans) used for transportation.
>>1359660>Kill off 90% of the population of the planet and it might work.Nope, that's what you ought to do to have a functional 100% car dependant society. For the mass of people and living patterns we are hying now, we need drastically less cars.And no one (reasonable) is arguing for a total, countrywide extermination of any and all cars. We just need to drastically reduce them in cities. And just look at, Uh, I dunno, like every non american city that is highly ranked in quality of life to see that huge numbers of people can live without a car just fine. But that would mean that you'd need to leave your bubble.
>>1359661>You aren't looking far enough or deep enough.OK, so what's the positive side of being stuck in traffic I'm missing? The fact that I can watch other people also stuck in their cars? The fact that I could listen to mind numbing radio all I want?
>>1359700Unless you plan to develop a car that can fold into a briefcase and weigh about 4 lbs when not in use, you did not address any of his points other than energy usage. Guess what hasn't happened since the car was created. Reducing the need for parking/storage, and reducing the space they take up. They've actually only gotten larger over the decades.
>>1359701I don't give a shit about you people and your goddamned cities, they're all shitholes with or without cars. Move more people OUT of the cities and give them some elbow room and your '''city''' problems will all go away.Humans should not be jammed together so close as they are in cities. You people think CARS are the reason cities suck, but it's because CITIES grew up with so little planning that they just went up and up and up and jammed more people into too small a space. Move the PEOPLE out of your cities and your problems will go away. Forcing people to use shitty buses and trains and shit like that isn't going to solve anything only make people more miserable overall.>>1359702You talk like every single second you're in a car you're stuck on The Five in LA at rush hour and that's not at all how owning and driving a car is like. This is how I know you have NEVER owned a car all your impressions of them are negative and not a single nice thing to say about them.>now he'll claim he USED to own a car but got rid of itDon't believe you and don't even care.I'm OLD and have owned many cars and motorcycles and sure sometimes there's traffic and it's not very convenient but the alternative is to cut off HALF my interests in life because I have no car to get to them. Same goes for most people. The """alternatives""" all suck in one way or another.>The benefits FAR OUTWEIGH the problems and inconveniencesThat's the reality of car ownership that you're conveniently ignoring.
>>1359708You talk like every single second you're in a car you're stuck on The Five in LA at rush hour and that's not at all how owning and driving a car is like. This is how I know you have NEVER owned a car all your impressions of them are negative and not a single nice thing to say about them.>The benefits FAR OUTWEIGH the problems and inconveniencesThat's the reality of car ownership that you're ***conveniently ignoring***.
>>1359667Are you a man or a metal inanimate object? Neither in you case, you're a faggot
>>1359655You need to pay for those higways and that comes out of the government (the tax payer). You also need parking and the state shouldn't force any business to have parking minimums like they do now. Also you'd want to save up some gas, currently the price is deflated (again on the taxpayer's back).All said and done, nobody wants to ban cars. But once all the loads of incentives that autos get are removed, i hardly believe it'd be necessary
>>1358245>She had been driving home on the freeway when her car went across the median and collided with one going the opposite direction, killing both drivers. So... What maintenance didn't she do, what was she doing at wheel she shouldn't have been?Sorry, but cars don't just jump medians. People direct vehicles to. I don't seethe point of demonizing the system when the system did little more than set the stage for someone to do something daft.Though I can dig some of the rest you're talking about. I really do think some concession to less waste generating forms of transit is a decent idea. Getting rid of what we have though isn't necessarily the way however.
>>1359810>the state shouldn't force any business to have parking minimums like they do nowBoo fuckin hooThat has zero impact on you
>>1359823>literal deserts of parking>over 50% of my city by surface area is parking>city floods constantly because the water can't drain through parking lots>"doesn't affect me"
>>1359824>literal deserts of parkingDoesn't affect you, you just want it to affect you and be a 'victim'>over 50% of my city by surface area is parkingYeah right>city floods constantly because the water can't drain through parking lotsStormwater problem, not a parking problem
>I'm not gonna read these facts because *shuffles deck* I don't like the URL you posted the facts on!Cager-tier
>>1359823Parking minimums have a huge effect on cities, how do cagers even write stuff this retarded
I would read any articles or studies supporting cagetard opinions if they could find any.
>>1359834You can talk about ARTICLES and PROFESSORS as much as you want. No one cares about them except you and your cadre of fringies
>>1359834>studies backing up anything the cagers claim404
>>1358521so youre saying money and urban planning are the core issuebut i thot america had the BEST money and the BEST urban planning. we're number 1! more like were number one
>1359805>1359807Nice copy-paste. You're wrong on every charge btw, but feel free to keep projecting. You still haven't rebutted >take up a lot of space and need to be parked/stored.
>>1359918Oops, you messed up the reply formatting. Here you go:>>1359805>>1359807
>1359920Thanks for the (You) fren
>>1358245based>>1358249cringe cager who jerks off to his car
>>1359937t. assblasted poorfagBe sure to enjoy your noisy, smelly, hobo-infested bus rides, and your flesh-eating bacteria infections.The rest of us will be safe and comfortable in our cars, laughing at your misfortune.
>>1359918>>1359920>autistically clinging to his fringie """opinions""" that are of course completely wronghave sex
>>1359839We don't need shitty biased """studies""", reality beats everything else. Also majority rule.We really should round you people up and put you in camps. Would solve all the problems at once.
>>1359805>hurr, durr, every human is a miserable shitbag just as me.>lets make more shitty sprawl and give everyone a truck>lets totally ignore that humans always crowded together in cities for all their history>lets totally ignore that many cities outside of the US work and are OK places
>>1359957>humans always crowded together in cities for all their historyYeah we also threw our shit into the streets for centuries too should we go back to that?Cars gave us the ability to escape crowded cities and you want to ram us right back in. Some people don't want that, just accept it.
>>1359826>asphalt stopping pants growing up and cleaning the air doesn't affect you>covering water absorbing clay with barely-permeable asphalt has no effect on drainageHang yourself pavement monkey
>>1359623Except when an inbound/outbound highway gets blocked it gridlocks the entire city really fast. And that gridlock will last long after whatever was the cause is removed. Also it's often not possible to take a detour around the obstacle because of either the gridlock and/or because the highway was designed as the only route in and out of the city to whatever direction it's going.
I love when cagers come up with delusional-ass arguments grasping at straws to defend sprawl.The nice thing is, consumers are showing a strong preference for walkability and transit access. That's why we're building so much transit-oriented development and people are paying so much to live in it.Don't take my word for it, look at any real estate data! I'd love for cagers to do some reading.
>>1359958>Some people don't want that, just accept it.I'm not trying to force anyone into a city.However those that willingly are (or those that commute into one), absolutely need to have fewer fucking cars. Forcing them to own and drive a car is insane.If you want one for good reasons? Be my guest. But if you "want" one because you need to spend 2h a day in traffic to get to work, or because you're a limp dicked /pol/tard that is afraid of seing a black guy in the tram, you can just fuck off.
>>1359959>asphalt stopping pants growing up and cleaning the air doesn't affect youStructures don't do that either>covering water absorbing clay with barely-permeable asphalt has no effect on drainageRoofs aren't permeable either (well 99% of them aren't), that's why I already said it's a stormwater problem not a parking lot problem>>1359960>Except when an inbound/outbound highway gets blocked it gridlocks the entire city really fast.It takes an extraordinarily bad accident to block both directions of an urban freeway and even then people can get in/out on other roads and highways unless they're not near an exit. Obvious traffic on them increases but it doesn't gridlock an entire city. Same could be said of a rail accident, one derailment or suicide and that line is going to be shut down for hours.
>>1359962>The nice thing is, consumers are showing a strong preference for walkability and transit access.There's been a uptick in demand for that type of housing that people have known would happen for a long time. That doesn't mean the fate of suburbs is sealed--demand for suburban housing is still robust. Chill out>>1359963Nonsensical argument desu
>>1359805>You talk like every single second you're in a car you're stuck on The Five in LA at rush hour and that's not at all how owning and driving a car is like. This is how I know you have NEVER owned a car all your impressions of them are negative and not a single nice thing to say about them.>>now he'll claim he USED to own a car but got rid of itYes.I had a few cars and before I had my own, I could aways grab one of the families Mercedeces's (what's the proper plural of Mercedes?) when I needed one. And I'm not ruling out buying one again, should the need occur, but it's just idiotic to have a car eating away my money while I don't need it.I live right in the city center and my "commute" to work is even faster on foot than by car, I have all the shops I need in walking distance and I have access to good public transport for anything beyond that radius. And I don't need to impress anyone with some huge ass car that's trying to show some status. And for those cases I need a car, I simply grab a rental.>the alternative is to cut off HALF my interests in life because I have no car to get to them. Same goes for most people. The """alternatives""" all suck in one way or another.Where are you? I bet you have never seen a working public transport system or even been in a working city. You're probably some autistic lardass from Bumfuck nowhere, Flyoverland.
>>1359966You don't need an accident that blocks both ways to completely grind into a halt the out/inbound traffic. And most of the cities I've driven in don't have multiple parallel highways going the same way. Yeah there might be side roads but they're going to be full of cars the instant the highway is blocked.Yes a rail accident can shut down a line for hours. But once it's cleared the trains will be running. Once an accident has halted traffic to gridlock it won't help for hours even after it's been cleared.
>>1359969>You don't need an accident that blocks both ways to completely grind into a halt the out/inbound traffic.Sorry thought you were talking about an accident. Oh well cities with historically bad traffic still function.>But once it's cleared the trains will be running. Once an accident has halted traffic to gridlock it won't help for hours even after it's been cleared.That's how it works with trains too. they don't all start moving at once, the trains in the lead have to start clearing up before trains behind them can get enough headway to start moving. It's quicker than a highway I guess. It can be even worse if hours of service comes into play because you have to start calling in extra crews to relieve expired crews (idk if that applies to subways though, probably not)
>>1359470To stimulate their economy. Their building sector is huge and needs work
>>1360002We should rebuild and expand our highway system to stimulate our economy
>1359949Not an argument :^)
>>1360015irrational people don't warrant the effort that goes into an 'argument' because they're not rational.have sex
Public transportation just sucks a dick, I don't know why you euros cannot get that.
>>1359968>You're probably some autistic lardass from Bumfuck nowhere, Flyoverland.See, why should I even bother myself to have an intelligent conversation with someone like (You) when you say stupid ad hominen bullshit like that, just posting /b/-tier insulting nonsense?>have sexthat's the response you deserve if you're going to be that way.>you're unbalanced, go get medicatedthat's also the sort of response that deserves.
>>1360108Well, it is the only explanation I can think of, that you don't know anythin about the world and simply assume that every other place is like yours, just bigger.>>have sexBut I already have.>>you're unbalanced, go get medicatedWell, I have never talked to a psychologist, so I can't know for sure, but given that I have a life, job, friends, family, gf and all that (just no car…), I'd say I'm probably rather balanced.
>>1360106>claims others are irrational>spends hours shilling cars on a japanese bullet train board
>>1360150>>1360107>when you admit you have no argument
>>1360107>I don't know why you euros cannot get thatBecause we have great public transportation.
>>1360156Even great public transportation sucks compared to a carOnly autists won't admit it
>>1360215This even sucks compared to bicycle I found in trash.I suggest this: remove rails in subway and turn it in electric scooter and bicycle tunnel.
Enjoy your long commute Euros.https://www.statista.com/statistics/521886/travel-time-spent-work-study-countries/And why are we pretending that Americans are the only people with substantial amounts of cars? Euros have plenty of cars too. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_vehicles_per_capitaWhen you make this a Europe vs. America thing, you kill any progress this thread is going to make. Really what we need are action items, as in "how can we implement these provably effective transportation schemes".
>>1360229Westerm europeans have an irrational hatred for america. On /int/ even eastern euros and latin americans hate you less. It's bizarre really, considering that western europeans are basically the same as americans: arrogant, decadent and extremely hypocritical. I guess being less fat makes continentals feel superior.
>>1358991/pol/fag here. it's actually good
>>1360215>Even great public transportation sucks compared to a car>Only autists won't admit itOK, so I guess I'm an autist then.Yes, driving a nice car along an empty mountain road, enjoying the views, playing with acceleration, making it go vrooom vrooom is much better compared with driving the same road in an old greyhound bus full with crying toddlers and smelly hambeasts, but we are not talking joyrides (though if we are, zipping along at 300kph+ in an ICE or TGV, without having to pay attention to the road, that easily beats 90% of car trips…), we are talking your everyday commute.And sure, there are idiots, and probably even those blacks you are so afraid of in the same train as me and I would love it if there was some authority that makes sure they behave, but most of the time, they are just harmless. They only are a problem for (You), because you're O B S S E S S E D about them. Meanwhile, I'll just sit there, listen to some music, or read a book, or catch some sleep, or even get some work done, whereas in a car, I can only do the first.
>>1360377>They only are a problem for (You), because you're O B S S E S S E D about them.You brought them up not me
>>1360383I was just assuming that this is also the case for you, because every time public transport comes up, /pol/ crawls out of their holes to complain about the fact that ethnics ride them too. So then please tell me, if it's not maximally pigmented citizens, what else is it that makes you afraid of public transport?
>>1360373>/pol/fag herehow fucking delusional are you to think that preface makes people go "oh okay this guy would definitely know about reputable journals"
>>1360229I’m OP and I’m American. I became interested in planning when I learned how much our laws force Americans to use cars at the expense of everything else. Freeing up the zoning laws would be more equitable for homeowners as well, and help avoid bubbles.
>>1358245I agree that cities shouldn't need cars, but for most of America, they're a requirement with no real alternatives. I live over a mile away from my next door neighbor, and miles away from any store or town. Sure, for most of the year I can bike or motorcycle around, but during the winter a car is absolutely necessary. No amount of public transportation would solve this issue either, as a bus would basically need to make a stop at each person's house. For regions of the US where everything and everyone is spread out, the only real solution is for each person to own a car
>>1360524>our laws force Americans to use cars at the expense of everything elseIt's the other way around, fringie. People prefer personal transportation, so public policy is shaped around it.
>>1360523he's based. you wouldn't understand you soi male beta reddit roadie cuck