I thought you guys said Zeon weren't bad guys, that everything was a big gray area.But this is just outright breaking the 4th wall and admitting Zeon is evil.
You don't see Zabi Sr. endorsing his son's /pol/ ways now do you?
>>17530915This. While Degwin has been whitewashed by later Gundam media such as The Origin into a character with ultimately good intentions, Gihren is still universally portrayed as a blood thirsty prick
>>17530921Degwin signing that paper is still being an enabler, and that's NOT COOL BRO.
>>175309210079 white washed Degwin more than any successive work since it flat out says that he had handed all real power over to Gihren before the war and that it was Gihren who started it. Which is why he signed the piece of paper; he knew Gihren would find some way to do it regardless of whether he did or not.
>>17530985He still raised Gihren into being what he is and doing nothing to shut him out of power but instead meekly letting him take it all for himself. He also only gave a shit about the war once Garma was dead so I wouldn't call it white washing.
not totally related, but I saw that Gundam Info now have the entire Gundam The Origin for free on youtube, should I watch it if I only saw G Gundam, Unicorn and Narrative?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cn1ctBwqlfU
>>17530904>I thought you guys said Zeon weren't bad guys, that everything was a big gray area.Who, which ones of us?/m/ has always held that Zeon is an evil organization with some good people in it on the lower levels and that attempting to justify Zeon, like how Unicorn does it, is revisionism.
>>17531061Unicorn has never tried to justify Zeon.
>>17531049watch 0079 first, it's basically the only mandaory thing you should watch before dabbling with remakes or origin stories
>>17530904What, Zeon gassing civilians and constantly trying to fire weapons of mass destruction at Earthnoids didn't clue you in? Or the Military dictatorship, Nazi aesthetic and imagery, and SIEG ZEON hailing?
>>17531034It's about as much as any other work does with him in that regard.
>>17531090Until we find out the Federation did the same thing with the Titans.Plus the whole building a super laser and frying everyone alive at Solomon without giving them a chance to surrender.
>>175309040079 Zeon>The Holocaust happened!Side Materials, OVA Zeon>The Holocaust never happened, but it should have!Origin Zeon>The Holocaust happened, it needs to happen again, Hitler did nothing wrong!
>>17531124The Titans did that years later and it resulted in a civil war. Without Zeon fucking up everything, there never would have been any Titans.
>>17531124The Titans came much later (and were arguably a direct result of Zeek nazism in the first place), and also everyone recognizes and admits they were colossal shitheads, unlike people unironically defending Zeon.
>>17531175Zeon had its reasons; the Titans were just petty tyrants. Apples and oranges, even though both make juice.
>>17530904That's only true if you believe Hitler was evil.
>>17531198>Zeon had its reasonsYeah, like spacenoid supremacy and genocide of undesirables. Hitler had reasons too.
>>17531198Those are the same behaviors Zeon had. They were dickheads who killed everyone because they thought they were hot shit.
>>17531049No. Grow some balls and watch 0079
>>17531124The Titans did it on a much smaller scale, hid the evidence and then once it was proven for sure that they were murderous assholes to the Federation they dropped them like a ton of bricks. That's a false equivalence.
>>17530904The soldiers of Zeon, people like Ramba Ral, the crew that tried to blow Amuro up, or the nice man that helped the woman when she went looking for her husband's town aren't evil. They're soldiers in a war and no worse than any other soldier in a war. They're the ones painted with a gray area, as are a few higher ranking members like Garma and Dozle.
>>17531049How do people watch Unicorn without 0079-CCA? I don't understand how you can get enjoyment out of something that's a direct sequel to four other pieces of media that relies on you knowing and understanding said pieces of media.
>>17531221Those same 'undesirables' had been dumped into space by the Federation. Spacenoids didn't want them any more than Earth did, because they were overpopulace scumbags with no skills and no purpose.>>17531222Zeon had to fight a war against a power with only 1/30th the population of the enemy. Mass destruction was the only way to level that playing field. The Titans did it because they could despite having no reason to do so apart from Boogeyman syndrome, and because they wanted to use their toys. If you seriously think Giren's reasons were the same as Jamitov's, I feel sorry for your lack of perspective.
>>17530904because they look cool.
>>17531161>>17531175>>17531282>" Much later ">Suddenly - 6 years later is "much later" lol>Forgets about The Federation breaking the antartic treaty and building a Nuke Gundam in 0083 and working behind the scenes to allow Zeon Remnants to nuke 2/3rd of the Federation Space fleet.The plan for the Titans was in the works for a long time. There were many people involved in it's formation. And you can't blame Zeon for it. Take some personal responsibility.
>>17530985>>17530921Degwin at the point of 0079 was tired of war and wanted the whole thing to end. The death of Garma combined with Zeon Forces getting clobbered by a new ace in the federation convinced him that he should give up. >>17530907Hitler was a terrible soldier, politician and artist. He was just really charismatic.
>>17532127Right, first:>Take some personal responsibility for thirty+ year old space politics from a Japanese cartoon. Second, the Titans are set up to be the bad guys, they are the bad guys, and they do everything iN SECRET. They hide their activities, they blame other factions and factors, they keep their shit in the dark, they establish their own hierarchies and plans separate to the Federations, hell it's so much so that there are MULTIPLE incidents of Titans officers who don't even know what's going on, Emma and that guy at Dakar for example who thought the Titans were just trying to stop Zeon from rising again. And the moment it can be proven, beyond a doubt, that the Titans are in fact assholes, they're dropped, they go running off and they ally with a Zeon remnant. So my advice to you is to stop being so invested in fictional space politics to the extent you're telling other real people to take responsibility and two to actually watch the show and pay attention to what happens on screen.
>>17532142Also meanwhile in the AEUG we see Federation ships, Federation uniforms, lots of old Feddie pilots and such. The only time they cosy up to Axis is out of desperation and that goes to shit very quickly. Meanwhile the Titans successfully make an alliance with Zeon and a whole load of Titans end up in Neo-Zeon as we see in ZZ.
>>17532127The antarctic treaty was only valid for the OYW, Feddies could do whatever they wanted with nukes afterwards. Hell, Londo Bell used nukes against Char's Neo Zeon in CCA, and you never see anyone bat an eye. The only reason why the Delaz fleet saw it as a breaking of the treaty was due to their belief that the war wasn't over, and therefore, the treaty was still valid.
>>17530921>The Origin into a character with ultimately good intentionsI wouldn't go that far. Sorry that you can't understand nuance
>>17532142Plus even if you say 'The Federation is just as bad as Zeon because the Titans' compared to Zeon the Titans did barely anything. They gassed two colonies. If you think the Titans are evil and the Federation ebcause they failed to stop that, then God fucking knows why you're supporting Zeon because their warcrimes make the Titans look like a practical joke. Two colonies? Oh wow, how awful and wicked they are, as Zeon wipes out ENTIRE SIDES.
>>17532143>Also meanwhile in the AEUG we see Federation ships, Federation uniforms, lots of old Feddie pilots and such. Dafaq you on about? The AEUG is a mis-mash of pilots and personnel. Half of which are former OYW Zeon pilots/personnel who either want to stop the Titans, kill more Feddies as revenge for OYW and need an excuse, or just want something to shoot at with no true loyalty to the AEUG. The only reason AEUG have old Federation stuff is because most of Zeon's stuff is confiscated, made illegal to use, or destroyed. You can't fly around in a Gelgoog and not get noticed. There is a lot more de-comissioned OYW Federation Salamis that AEUG can buy/steal and can go unnoticed. Lots of AEUG personnel came with the clothes on their back or whatever they brought with them. Uniforms don't matter. They do not care about what your clothing choice is. Wear whatever you want for the most part. Dont lie to everyone in this thread.
>>17532146>Hell, Londo Bell used nukes against Char's Neo Zeon in CCA, and you never see anyone bat an eye.Cameron literally says they're gonna jail his ass for life for handing over nukes to Londo Bell but it'd be worth ithttps://youtu.be/nHoC3-i0p3w?t=3245
>>17532146>The antarctic treaty was only valid for the OYW>Feddies could do whatever they wanted with nukes afterwardsTypical Feddie thinking that started the One Year War in the first place. Oh wow look at the horrors of using nukes, poison gas, and Colony drops! Zeon is so bad! We must never repeat those mistakes.*OYW is over*" Yeah, fuck that treaty. We won. Fuck morality. Time to build more nuke gundams and drop colonies on the moon with the Titans. Let's also purge any dissidents with poison gas. And hunt down any dissidents who oppose us. Also lets rebuild Zeon's Colony laser and use it hold hostage any Side that opposes us. "
>>17532149Good intentions doesn't mean he went about it in the right way
>>17532175>Also lets rebuild Zeon's Colony laser and use it hold hostage any Side that opposes us.Don't forget that the AEUG destroys the Colony Laser, but the Federation rebuilds it AGAIN in Unicorn (can't blame the Titans for that one). The Federation just CANNOT learn to peaceably govern and rule with fairness.
>>17532180>Don't forget that the AEUG destroys the Colony Laser, but the Federation rebuilds it AGAIN in UnicornThat never happened in Zeta. The Gryps colony laser is abandoned shortly after it's fired, and the battle of Gryps ends. We're never informed that it was destroyed, or that the shot fried it. I don't remember ZZ ever bringing it up either.If we go by ZZ, the AEUG had no fleet to keep it defended either (despite that fact that they still had plenty of ships before it's fired).
>>17532169> Dont lie to everyone in this thread.Says the guy lying to everyone in the thread. Almost none of what you just said is actually in or even implied by Zeta. Most of AEUG are former Federation personnel going by Zeta, and it's only in questionably canon side material like manga that the idea it's made up of lots of former Zeon personnel comes in to play. Roberto and Apolly are changed to be former Zeon soldiers in said side material despite one of them wearing a Federation uniform when going to visit Haman's fleet.There's nothing in Zeta to imply lots of AEUG personnel just want to kill more Feddies, are out for revenge for the One Year War and Reccoa is the only person implied to be doing it for purely mercenary reasons; something that is treated as abnormal. There's also nothing about Zeon stuff being harder to get or use. In fact, when Reccoa flies on to the Jupiturus in a Gelgoog, she notes that it's a popular model among collectors and none of the soldiers on board are freaking out about the appearance of a Zeon model. One of them even shows interest in buying it from her.
>>17532180Why wouldn't they have the colony laser on standby? Zeeks try to drop a colony every week
>>17532186The Colony Laser was destroyed/extremely damaged following the conclusion of Operation Maelstrom at the end of Zeta Gundam. Bright is even surprised/upset that the Feddies rebuilt it when it was shown in Unicorn.Regardless, it was a shit move by the Feddies to rebuild/repair and use it again.
>>17532192It's also not like having a big gun is a war crime in and of itself. Having or using a colony laser is fine, as long as it's used on military targets. It's using it on civilians that is a war crime. Shit, the same is broadly true of nuclear missiles really and the main reason they're frowned upon is because of the fallout; not because having a really big bomb is a bad idea. That's why no-one gives out about the Federation using the Solar System on Solomon or Zeon using the Colony Laser on the Federation's combined fleet; they were legitimate military targets.
>>17532187>questionably canon side material like mangaoh here we go. the "manga doesn't count" crowd. listen buddy - manga sells and Bandai makes hot selling model kits from popular manga. These kits comes with official booklets and technical manuals that include information that reinforce the manga stories. That makes the manga stories ultra official. If it has a model, it's truly official.
>>17532197>Having or using a colony laser is fineOh shit here we go again. Feddie supporters trying to rationalize using leftover super weapons fromevil Zeon and Titans. Fuck the horror, sacrifice, and lives lost to destroy the Colony Laser the first time around. It's okay as long as the FEDDIES control it. Get bent. There is a reason the AEUG destroyed it. We don't need MORE super weapons.
>>17532197>That's why no-one gives out about the Federation using the Solar System on Solomon or Zeon using the Colony Laser on the Federation's combined fleet; they were legitimate military targets.Oh yeah it's totally cool when the Feddies use a space laser to melt Solomon! Amuro and White Base are fine with it. No one bats an eye. But when Zeon uses their own space laser in retaliation:"GET AWAY FROM THAT LIGHT!!!!! THAT'S THE LIGHT OF PURE EVIL!!!!! HOW COULD THEY! THAT LIGHT IS PURE HATRED PERSONIFIED MELTING AWAY OUT SHIPS" - Amuro literally screaming on White Base Bridge when the Colony laser hit the Feddie fleet.Was I the only one that thought that scene was ridiculous?? I WOULD NOT have a problem with it if the Federation fleet and White Base didn't act like the Zeon Colony laser came out of nowhere, and that they didn't just use a laser on Solomon. And just accepted their losses from the laser with honor. But instead they act all high and mighty acting like Zeon shouldn't use it.Amuro and the Federation are hypocrites.
>>17532200>>17532205>>17532221Is this all one person?
>>17532221>"GET AWAY FROM THAT LIGHT!!!!! THAT'S THE LIGHT OF PURE EVIL!!!!! HOW COULD THEY! THAT LIGHT IS PURE HATRED PERSONIFIED MELTING AWAY OUT SHIPS" - Amuro literally screaming on White Base Bridge when the Colony laser hit the Feddie fleet.Ok. You have a point there. I will admit it was very awkward for the Federation to react with offense, and incredulity that Zeon would dare use a space laser against them when in fact they did the same exact thing a few episodes previously to win the Battle of Solomon.
>>17532194Char's faggotry could've been dealt with swiftly if the colony laser was operational by the time of CCA.
>>17532222>trying to attach an identity to random anonymous postsHow about you go back to facebook or reddit, cancerous nigger.
>>17532232Mind you, it's Amuro. The guy who threw a shitfit a few episodes earlier because of how callous Feddie officers were being about Ryu's death. He's hardly the exemplar of the detached and utilitarian military mind.
>>17532221>FED: Space Laserz Solomon>ZEON: Space Laserz FED fleet.>FED: WAIT THAT'S ILLEGAL
>>17532200> manga sells and Bandai makes hot selling model kits from popular manga.So? Staff have literally come out and stated they only hold the animated stuff as canon during interview. Just because something is making money does not mean that it's held as canon. If it was, SRW would be canon, since that's officially endorsed too.> That makes the manga stories ultra official.There is a difference between official and canon anon. It's why series movies for various franchises even in Japan can completely contradict the TV show they're from but still be made by the license holders.>>17532205> It's okay as long as the FEDDIES control it.No, it's okay as long as it's used on military targets regardless of who controls it. That's why I listed the Colony Laser being used on the combined Federation fleet as an example.>>17532232It's really only Amuro who reacts with offense, and that only as an initial, gut reaction. It's likely to be (a) a Star Wars homage and (b) an emotional response to all the people being killed in the vicinity, which he's free to react to because he's not in the middle of a battle. Unlike at Solomon. He doesn't actually dwell on it at all, and no-one else reacts that way. It's also not like it's unusual for soldiers from one faction to treat tragedies differently dependent on context. Amuro might be the protagonist, but he's not infallible and the show never treats him that way. Just because he says something doesn't mean it's the objective truth of the matter, or we as the audience have to treat it that way.
>>17532279When did the Feds say the colony laser used on them before A Baoa Qu was illegal?
>>17532280>Staff have literally come out and stated they only hold the animated stuff as canon during interview.Why would a staff member's personal opinion be considered the company's official stance?
>>17532284They didn't. That's why colony lasers were built in the first place, it's a new kind of weapon that isn't expressively prohibited by the Antarctic Treaty.
>>17532286Why would an anonymous poster think their view on the matter is definitive despite Sunrise never indicating they think the same thing?
>>17532258desu anonymous posting patterns becoming recognizable to the point of receiving derision is an ingrained part of 4chan culture. Where do you think such titles as barneyfag, TMSfag, that one obsessive cyborg ass poster, and others've come from? We literally have multiple here in /m/, we used to have the gunpla thread spammer, that one guy who always shitposts a particular show to oblivion, etc. Samefagging is a thing, and a bad thing, for a reason.
>>17532280> Staff have literally come out and stated they only hold the animated stuff as canon during interview.Which staff? Which series? Do they oversea all productions and have an actual say like Executive Producers, VPs, and Presidents of the Company? Or are they some rando artist who drew some scenes, but don't represent the company's stance as a whole, and are just giving their opinion. Hate to break it to you, but your "canon" takes a backseat to what makes money. Look at OYW Side Stories, Gundam Sentinel, Gundam Seed Astray Sidestories, Gundam Unicorn, Gundam NT, Gundam Hathaway's Flash, ETC. All sold well, and all became canon. If it makes money then they will MAKE it canon with models and/or additional anime.And if there are minor conflicts (like "oh no amuro pilots a Rick Dias in the novel, but in the anime they made it a Jegan!"), it doesn't invalidate the story as a whole. Minor conflicts means the anime takes priority in the cannon hierarchy. The newest, and most animated version takes precedence. You may not like that, but the license holders determine what THEIR definition of canon is as well.
>>17532337Because that doesn't matter. You are trying to use the excuse of labeling a random anonymous as a shitposter ..... while trying avoid address real valid points that anon brought up. So stop talking about cancerous reddit-tier nonsense and actually address what was said.
>>17532337>barneyfag, TMSfag, that one obsessive cyborg ass poster,... who?
>>17532337Because that doesn't matter. You are trying to use the excuse of labeling a random anonymous as a shitposter ..... while trying to avoid addressing the real valid points that anon brought up. So stop talking about cancerous reddit-tier nonsense and actually address what was said faggot
>>17532347I'm not any of the people you're arguing with nigga, those guys're already arguing with you.
>>17532350>>17532353Double post my bad. My browser froze up and I didn't realize I already made my previous post. So I typed it out again.
>>17532359I've struck a nerve I see.
>>17532187AEUG literally stands for Anti-Earth Union Group, Earth Union being the English name for the Earth Federation before Gundam was brought over to the US.
>>17532360You are cancerous. If you can't accept it's an anonymous board and names do not really matter then go back to L-eddit
>>17532339> Which staff? Which series? Do they oversea all productions and have an actual say like Executive Producers, VPs, and Presidents of the Company?http://otakurevolution.com/content/gundam-what-sunrise-thinks-is-officialProducers, writers etc. who've worked on a variety of entries, including Shigeru Horiguchi, Toshihiro Watanabe and Akiyuki Okazaki. They've worked on Gundam 0080, Turn-A Gundam, Gundam SEED Destiny, Gundam 00 etc.> Look at OYW Side Stories, Gundam Sentinel, Gundam Seed Astray Sidestories, Gundam Unicorn, Gundam NT, Gundam Hathaway's Flash, ETC. All sold well, and all became canon.Most of them were changed for animation (the ones who even made it to animation in the first place), and it's the animated version that's seen as canon and not the manga or novel versions.> You may not like that, but the license holders determine what THEIR definition of canon is as well.I'd say the same to you.>>17532362Despite that name they fight to support the Earth Union, and literally appeal to them for support at Dakar. They were against the Titans, who were part of the Earth Union; not the Earth Union itself.
>>17532352I envy your ignorance of the turbosperg that was Barneyfag.
>>17532369Yeah that's great, would you mind putting on a trip so I can filter you?>>17532379I should've mentioned Greg and subjectanon, I dunno if Greg's still around but subjectanon definitely hasn't gone anywhere.
>>17532379Was it the guy trying to force the >Eva01 looks like Barney meme for like a week, or is it some deeper lore I missed?
>>17532385No idea who those guys are and I'm quite happy about that.>>17532388I don't know if he ever came to /m/, but basically he would get really upset when an image related to MLP got posted. Didn't matter if it was a picture of a character from the show or something that isn't readily apparent to be related to the show, he was there screaming about how people who like MLP are equivalent to adults liking Barney. I'm pretty sure he was the one posting the images though, just so he could pitch a fit and spam threads.
>>17532374>http://otakurevolution.com/content/gundam-what-sunrise-thinks-is-officialDo you even read the links you post? They aren't representing Bandai/Sunrise in that interview. They are just giving their Personal opinions, and having a friendly talk with one another. Nothing official. And even then they still don't agree with one another.
>>17532398Did you even read my posts? At no point did I indicate that it was Sunrise themselves issuing an official stance on the matter; only that it was the view of the actual staff working on the franchise that the animation is the only real canon. Which might not be an official stance, but is worth more than the view of a random online poster at the very least.
>>17532414>only that it was the view of the actual staff working on the franchise that the animation is the only real canon.1. Some staff2. Completely false. Only the current rights holder opinions matter. 3. If there WERE a secondary opinion that mattered (or I respected) below the official rights holders - then it would be the original creator of Gundam - Tomino. His word may not be official anymore, but it carries the most weight above all other staff.
>>17532337What very epic anon-celebrity name would you call the poster you accused of being a samefag?Is he the on-topicfag? gundamfag? lorefag?Imagine dedicating your time trying to pin an identity to some inane posts about children cartoons, fucking lmao.
Are we playing the Gundam war crime game, take 1 shot when someone said that's not canon take 2 shots when someone tries to justify the war crime.
>>17532477> Only the current rights holder opinions matter.Which we don't know, and which the popularity of side material doesn't imply makes them canon. What we do know is that side material is rarely acknowledged in animation, that even when it is, it's normally changed for the animation and that animations can and have over-written side material without issue in the past.
>>17530904Because Zakus are cooler than GayMs.
>>17531295The piece you're missing to understand it is that every Gundam entry is actually pretty self-explanatory, and even if it's a sequel to a previous work, it'll go out of it's way to explain everything necessary to understand that work on it's own. Seeing previous entries will certainly add some more context and reward viewers, but it isn't actually necessary. That said, I don't know why you'd do it; but you certainly can.>>17531390> If you seriously think Gihren's reasons were the same as Jamitov's, I feel sorry for you.If you seriously think Gihren was only doing it because mass destruction was necessary to level the playing field then you're deliberately ignoring context, given he flat out says he thinks it's necessary to reduce the population to ensure resource allocation and because it'll make ruling the remainder easier while talking to Degwin late in the show/movies, and that's one of the reasons Degwin compares him to Hitler. Any further reason was only something to sell it to the public. On the other hand, Jamitov was a secret Deikunist with Contolist ideals who wanted to push people in to space according to Scirocco and it was more guys like Bask or Scirocco himself who viewed acts of terrorism as necessary just like Gihren was going over Degwin's head to enact atrocities for his own personal reasons.
>>17530985this is why 0079 is not canon
>>17532269bright does look young here
>>17532127>Forgets about The Federation breaking the antartic treaty and building a Nuke Gundam in 0083 and working behind the scenes to allow Zeon Remnants to nuke 2/3rd of the Federation Space fleet.Zeon literally broke the treaty already during the fucking OYW itself when M'Quve launched a nuke at Revil.
>>17531390>Those same 'undesirables' had been dumped into space by the Federation. Spacenoids didn't want them any more than Earth did, because they were overpopulace scumbags with no skills and no purpose.They were the spacenoids. It's why the opening implies Zeon killed most of the billions killed during the OYW
>>17532721Their castle might be a sign of something
I don't really think either side did anything wrong. Only the strong survive, and make rules. Zeon lost the war. So the Feddies make the rules. If they want to oppress and enslave Space, then so be it.
>>17533034Shut up Jerid.
>>17531062Unicorn is all about justifying and legitimizing Zeon.
>>17532740Zeon Zum Daikun's definition of 'spacenoid' didn't include welfare population sent into space and into the colonies against their wills. They were contributing nothing to spacenoid development, they were just there to make Earth more liveable to the privileged few who thought they deserved it more. It would have been one thing if those useless masses had wanted to fight for spacenoid independence, but they didn't. They were literally occupying colonies they wanted nothing to do with, hampering the lives of those who wanted more from being in space. Those billions were humanity's excess weight shifted into space to make Earth lighter, nothing more.
>>17533139I guess Degwin's assassination was actually faked by Kycillia and he's hiding out on /m/
>>17533126Oh wow the characters who are a part of a Zeon remnant faction jerk off over the ideals of Zeon and think they did nothing wrong. Truly, Unicorn is just Zeonwank garbage.
>>17533126Yes....Full Frontal is the "bad guy". The guy who wants to economics. Not the Federation who shot your home with a space laser, or tried to melt your girlfriend. The Feddies are OKAY.
>>17530904No one here ever seriously said "Zeon was right".But their rise to power is no different from the rise of ultra-nationalist worldwide. People so disappointed by the bureaucratic UEE that they'll support any group who focus on charismatic leader, or at least fat yellow one.Putting aside that Zeon Zum Deikun was assassinated by the Zabi. Meaning the peoples were following the wrong persons for previously right reason.
>>17531390They mass murdered civilians, and their fellow spacenoids to boot, regardless of whether they were neutral or under the Federation's banner. They tried to permanently scar the Earth with colony drops despite claiming they wanted the planet to be a nature preserve. Over a third of humanity died before the Antarctic Treaty was signed, before the series even began, and then Zeon did such "wonderful" things like using a massive laser on their own fleet for daring to want peace talks. The fact that Zeon was such a radical, violent, hellish militaristic state is why the Titans even got the chance to exist -- to prevent another Zeon. It was thanks to Zeon being so over-the-top evil that all of the Titans' arguments sounded plausible at first, and Zeon killed off all the people who could have stopped the Titans before a civil war was needed.The Titans only exist because Zeon proved crazy, apocalyptic spacenoid assholes were a thing. With the sheer casualties and environmental damage Zeon caused for laughably bad, hypocritical reasons, people were utterly terrified by the possibility that another Zeon could one day appear. They were also too spent and exhausted from the war to watch the Titans like hawks and keep them strictly in line to boot.>>17533139What does "more from being in space" entail? It's just room to live in, and the public had no reason to believe people would eventually get psychic powers from living in space. Heck, by just being there the "refuse" of humanity were contributing to the Newtype thing just fine. It's not like the colonies are shown to have overpopulation issues, horrible slums, or cultural, social, legal, and political clashes either. This screencap >>17531426 is right on the money.
>>17533333WOULD YOU LOOK AT THOSE QUINTS
>>17533392>The absolute state of earthnoids
>>17533320I unironically think Zeon's base issue is valid. Spacenoids did deserve to be free. They just went about it in the most ass backwards fucking way and let personal politics and views get in the way.
>>17530904I don't think you know what "breaking the 4th wall actually means". How is Degwin talking to the audience there?
>>17533413I see I struck one of your filthy, hypocritical Zeek nerves.
>>17533413>>17534924Get a room.
>ITT: Possible EF Warcrimes equal actual Zeon Warcrimes apparently
>>17531090I don't get why gundam the origin completely left out nukes from the story. I'd have thought that before signing the antarctic treaty zeon would've been dropping nukes left and right.
>>17534978Then what do you call the using a weapon of mass destruction at Battle of Solomon where the Federation killed tens of thousands Zeon Soldiers without giving them a chance to surrender? Weapons of mass destruction are banned by the antarctic treaty.
>>17534993Not covered by the treaty, it's fair game, much like the colony laser. Also, Solomon was a defensive hardpoint, they weren't going to surrender. If you want to open this Laplace box though, what do you call firing a nuke at Odessa?
>>17534993>surrenderYeah, being sent to sortie explicitly to try and harry the EF fleet to allow your buddies to run and fight even more is surrendering.
>2019>"Zeon is the good all along guys">Feddie are true evilThey seem to forget that while Feds are bunch of incompetent corrupt pricks they are truly the nicest faction in Gundam universe. we never saw a fully sanction genocide backed by the Federation nor we see them ever becoming the aggressor in the first place, they're usually tried to resolve via diplomacy and economy before resorting to war. >Then they are bunch of pussiesWhen their defeat is imminent, instead of team killing their own staff the feds actually choose to die fighting to the last man and actually bleed the Zanscare manpower for every inch march forward.
>>17532146>The antarctic treaty was only valid for the OYWDEAD WRONG. It's like your memory stops at the Battle of Al Baou Que. For the future, "The Granada Treaty" signed at the end of war re-affirms the weapons of mass destruction ban of the previous Antarctic treaty. They didn't want the Republic of Zeon doing any crazy stuff in-response for losing the war.Do your homework.
>>17532139I dunno I kinda like his paintings man
>>17535405...It's exactly because the Antarctic treaty is no longer valid that they needed to create the Granada accords to account for all future conflicts past the end of the OYW. If the Antarctic Treaty were still valid, they wouldn't need to create the Granada accords. It's an entirely separate document, not a new expiry date written onto the existing Antarctic treaty.Still doesn't bother to ban colony lasers, though. Or colony drops. Or asteroid drops.
>>17535051fuck you, timeline order
>>17535436>Or colony drops. Yes it does. It especially bans this.
>>17535451Source? I've never known anywhere to have a complete listing of the Granada accord's banned items.It's not like anyone explicitly calls out the Titans for breaking the accords with a nuke at Jaburo, either.
>>17535436Not the anon you are responding to, but IIRC the Granada Accords take everything banned and listed in the Antarctic treaty (bio/chem weapons, nukes, colony drops, etc) and renews the terms permanently going forward. If it's banned in the Antarctic treaty, then it's banned by the Granada Accords moving forward into the future.They had to make the Granada Accords document because the Principality of Zeon surrendered (or was dead), and Side 3 converted to the "Republic of Zeon". The Federation had to keep it "legal" so no one (such as yourself or zeon remnants) can suddenly start claiming that the Antarctic treaty no longer applies, and start nuking Earth cities in retaliation for losing the One Year War. Now the public will view anyone who tries to use weapons of mass destruction as bad. And the Federation will always be the good guys if anyone tries anything with weapons of mass destruction.>>17535462>It's not like anyone explicitly calls out the Titans for breaking the accords with a nuke at Jaburo, either.Well they were already in a state of Civil War because of the Titan's tactics. Not much higher of a response you can get than that. They did create more outrage from the AEUG -- so there's your response.But from the general public (if that's what you meant), there wasn't any proof for the AEUG to use to proof their case. The Titans could just claim the AEUG attacked and destroyed Jaburo in their assault. And then further label the AEUG as terrorists for propaganda purposes, and to get more funding from the Federation.
>The United Earth Federation can do no wrong>Nobody ever wanted to leave the UEE>Zeon is fakenews propagated by sleeves terrorist>Please vote for the UEE! >Not you spacenoid, you don't get to vote that's why we sent you there by force
>>17535440>timeline order>iboThat's disgusting. Anon, what the fuck
Filthy fucking Zekes were always hilariously evil.Not that Earth Federation were boy scouts, but compared to the Zeke, they were outright saints.
>>17535905>confusing me with IBOfagI feel insulted. Even I have limits.
>>17532269Yeah OYW Amuro’s reactions give absolutely no input as to how moral a feddie decision is, he’s all over the place.
>>17533320It’s deliberately left unclear if he was assasinated, though. In the origin it’s likely he worked himself to death and Jimba Ral was being autistic. Dergin was just a ruthless opportunist.
>>17534928If feddies and zeeks had a big orgy none of this shit would’ve happened. Bonobos figured this shit out ages ago.
>>17536332Sometimes I'm really dumb
>>17536276Zekes wanted power and control. They wanted to establish a dynasty under the Zabi name. But at least they were upfront about it. The Federation Titans were straight up just malicious and sneaky. They enjoyed inflicting pain on fellow soldiers and civilians while pretending to be protecting you for your own good.. And the organization attracted the worst kind of individuals. Psychotic and mentally-ill people.
>>17536431> At least they (the Zabis) were upfront about it.Not really. Gihren wanted to commit genocide so that ruling the remainder would be easier, while there's suspicion from the off in the original Gundam that one of the Zabis murdered Zeon Zum Deikun and used his death to ascend to power through manipulation and machinations, after which they told the public their conflict was for independence rather than power. There's nothing upfront about that.
>>17535393Well i would argue that the AEUG is the nicest faction but i get what you mean
>>17536347>In the origin it’s likely he worked himself to deathThe managing partner of a global law firm recently went on medical leave because he was exhausted, and died six months later. He literally worked himself to death. It's a thing. http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/death-of-biglaw-global-chairman-after-leave-for-exhaustion-highlights-stress-of-law-practice
>>17536641Guy was doing coke lines or speed probably, not good for the heart if mixed with no sleep and too much work and stress
Space nazis fuck off
>>17530904>talking about in universe history is breaking the fourth wallare you retarded
>>17532127>Forgets about The Federation breaking the antartic treaty and building a Nuke Gundam in 0083And you're forgetting that Zeon broke it before that with M'Qve.
>>17530904Yes, Gihren is a despicable war monger. That doesn't mean everyone who works under him is just as bad. Zeon is made of millions, the Zabis are just the people on top.
>>17537775M'quve and Yuri Kellerne makes two violations.
>>17531136>Gihren did nothing wrong!ftfy
Anyone have that 'my specific brand of Zeon' pic?
>>17536861So basically char and jimba are in denial about karoshi.
>>17536874>Space Zionists fuck offFixed it for you.
neo-neo-neo-neo-Zeon's second cousin twice removed will surely get it right.
>>17538471>>17538475Convenient that you left out the Titans dropping a Colony on the moon.
>>17538640>one (failed) warcrime by offshoot = 4+ within 15 years by same group>how dare you not talk about the feddies when talking about zeon!!based retard
>>17538640>buh duh teetahns!fucking lmao
>>17538117That and ridiculously high amounts of solar radiation.
>>17537777Very few people from Zeon are genuinely good though.
>>17538751I'd say the Feds and Zeon had pretty even percentages of good, okay, and bad people.
Zeon did nothing wrong.
>>17538117Yes, Jimba Ral wasn't the most stable man. Zeon Zum Deikun didn't even hit the ground and he already had the tinfoil hat out. He just wanted to pin that shit on Degwin to gain more power
>>17538668>one (failed) warcrimelol what? Your requirement is that they had to succeed and kill billions? Then why did you include:1. 0083 colony drop (which used an empty colony, and hit the mid-western farmland and completely missed major population centers),2. Char's Axis Asteroid drop (which failed completely and the asteroid was put into stable orbit)>how dare you not talk about the feddies when talking about zeon!!A war crime is a war crime. We don't exclude them just because it was done by the Federation and not Zeon.
>>17538998Hmm....this is a good point. >>17538877Agreed>>17536431>>17536441Zeon at least was a "recognized" government and army. The Titans are just a police force. It would be like if your local police department suddenly got all this power and military tanks and started beating random civilians in the name of keeping order.
>>17530904Watch later shows and even read manga. You will find out the Federation isn't good either. They enslave children and drop colonies.
>>17535000>colony laserBut surely the Federation didn't think that Zeon would make their own Solar Ray and return fire on the fleet or even target earth with the laser? Wasn't the spirit and point of the treaty to limit catastrophic damage?
>>17538998> A war crime is a war crime. We don't exclude them just because it was done by the Federation and not Zeon.Those pictures aren't about war crimes though, they're about Zeon. It's right there in the headings. It uses Zeon's war crimes to highlight their issues, but it's still about Zeon at the end of the day.
>>17539202Full Frontal from Unicorn wanted his Zeon "Side Co-Prosperity Sphere" (all colonies sides unite their economies in a Trade Block) which was purely economics, and didn't involve colony dropping or dominating through military power. It was the most sane, and peaceful Zeon solution ever. Yet he was treated like the devil for suggesting it by the Federation.
>>17539205Maybe he shouldn't have used the role of a famous genocidal terrorist and made a giant doomsday robot, then.
>>17532139>Hitler was a terrible soldier, politician and artist.Hitler was in fact a great soldier who won awards for bravery. And he was also an amazing politician (he had to have been to accomplished what he did. And as far as artistry is concerned he was definitely better than the postmodernist garbage "artists" from the same era. What Hitler was actually awful at was being a war leader.
>>17539208You say that...but It's funny because his enemies made fun of him for not being genocidal enough. Mineva says it straight up to his face when he suggests his peaceful plan.With regards to the robots.... Full Frontal was dealing with reality warping gundams that can block colony lasers. He needed some back up. They would laugh at him if he rolled up in some powered up Zaku or something. Even then his giant doomsday robot ended up not being strong enough. Maybe the giant doomsday robot isn't what we should be worried about. Food for thought.
>>17538877It was much closer in 0079, but Zeon still had a sizeable lead when it came to having evil people, and the percentage dramatically grew in subsequent series.
>>17538916>Degwin apologistsDo you know nothing about the Zabi family?
>>17538998The Federation was in a civil war and the Titans were only one faction; Zeon was unified and attempted (and committed) far more atrocities. Zeon is still objectively far worse, and the Titans only exist because Zeon's existence and actions made their reasoning seem justified for years. The OYW also killed most of the good, reasonable people who would have shut the Titans down before they could even start.
>>17539209t. /pol/ fascistBeing a populist and chattin' shit doesn't require much in the way of skill m8. Also he got "awards for bravery" while being a glorified messenger boy
>>17539266Fuck you mate, the fact the Feddies didn't immediately shut the Titans down and execute the people responsible after 30 Bunch is a major strike against them. Like I keep saying in threads like these, Zeon's warcrimes are reprehensible but had a strategic component. The Titans just killed people because they were too lazy to quell rioters themselves.
>>17532169>Half of which are former OYW Zeon pilots/personnel who either want to stop the Titans, kill more Feddies as revenge for OYW and need an excuse, or just want something to shoot at with no true loyalty to the AEUG.Nice headcanon. Put your trip back on and take a bow Black Knight.
>>17539282read the manga
>>17532175>Being so in denial that you gotta lump the federation and the titans together to prove your point>>17532200Even the mangas you speak of disavow your fanfiction of an edgelord AEUG>>17532221Actually IIRC Amuro and Bright were like "WTF DID OUR GUYS JUST DO? THAT'S MESSED UP!" when they saw the Solar System in action. Maybe not to that exact tone, but they were still pretty shocked by what the horrors of warfare can achieve when your own side points a magnifying glass at an anthill. So no, it's not hypocrisy because they weren't the ones who fired it.>>17532258>>17532494You're not fooling anyone Black Knight.Cope zeek scum.
>>17532222Given that >>17532258 deflected hard enough to push away Axis, I'd say so.
>>17539268>Also he got "awards for bravery" while being a glorified messenger boylol you need to learn to cope, commiefag.
>>17539298>Being so in denial that you gotta lump the federation and the titans together to prove your pointNot the anon you are talking to but the Titans are part of the Federation. Maybe a division of it, but still part of the Federation none-the-less. And by the start of Zeta they had grown massive in scale and started to supplant the regular forces. >So no, it's not hypocrisy because they weren't the ones who fired it.Well...Were not talking specific people. But if we were, they were still hypocritical because Amuro and White Base act shocked that Zeon would use their own space laser. I agree with >>17532221If they acted like "well we fired a space laser at Solomon...getting shot with our own technology is expected now. we opened this door and invited it upon ourselves" or something along those lines then I think I would be agreeing with you instead.
>>17539307>confronted with the myriad failures of his moronic idol, who despite his "bravery and valor" was too much of a coward to go out fighting and instead put a Parabellum through his skull in a bunker>who was at best fucking pedestrian as a painter, leading faggots that defend him to screech about muh postmodernism instead of realising nobody gave a fuck about garbage landscape watercolours in the 20s and 30s, and that even on their own merits they suck>no, y-you need to cope! stay mad fashboi
>>17539314Holy shit you really are worked haha>worked into a permanent seethe by Based Hitler you can't even acknowledge basic facts about him
>>17539317>can't acknowledge basic facts about himlol ok
>>17532221You should watch another Tomino's masterpiece where space prince Daba casually carpet bombs an entire planet with space rocks.
>>17539298 >Actually IIRC Amuro and Bright were like "WTF DID OUR GUYS JUST DO? THAT'S MESSED UP!" when they saw the Solar System in action. Maybe not to that exact tone, but they were still pretty shocked by what the horrors of warfare can achieve when your own side points a magnifying glass at an anthill. So no, it's not hypocrisy because they weren't the ones who fired it.Was hitting Solomon with a space laser weapon of mass destruction even necessary? It was made very clear that Zeon was on the backfoot, and that the Federation fleet was MASSIVE. Far beyond the size of the Zeon fleet. The Federation probably could have taken Solomon without resorting to using a giant space laser. Plus If the war didn't end when it did, then we would be having both sides shooting giant space lasers at each other constantly.
>>17532169You do know the one who form the AUEG was a Federation Officer? and over majority of them are Federation Soldiers and Pilot who saw the Titan menance and attempt to stop it. Blex main goal while in AUEG was not fighting Earth Federation but as a fully armed lobbyist group aimed to influence the Federation away from the Titans
>>17530904AEUG was just as bad as the Titans. They capture the colony laser from the Titans and instead of giving them a chance to surrender, they fire the laser obliterating the Titans fleet. How can AEUG act honorable but still use the Colony laser?? They were condemning the Titans for using such a weapon only a few episodes earlier but then had no problem using it once they were in control.And then they begged NEO ZEON for help and told Haman "We'll give you Side 3" as part of the agreement. Who is AEUG to think they can just GIVE Side 3 to Neo Zeon? They are supposed to be protecting all of Space but are giving Side 3 to Space Loli Hitler Neo Zeon. All sides are bad. I don't believe Zeon was the only bad player in this story.
>>17532279>EF do nothing>Spacenoid rebellion>EF does something>Wah wah EF is evil>EF do nothing>Spacenoid rebellion>EF gave full autonomy>Age of warring states in space>Every colony attacking each other for supremacy>Wah wah wheres the feds, they they haven't help usBeing Feds are fucking depressing as fuck. I swear if I became the chairman of the Federation I just throw everything in space to the sun and restart the whole space colonisation from scratch
>>17536583to me AUEG is more relax than nice, I mean Bright just wiped out all of Titans fleet in one go. while the Feds when reach side 3 could have or would have commit all of its population to the gulag or force annexation but they instead keep side 3 independence and leave.
>>17535433This isn't horrible. But I feel like it could be in a bargain bin
>>17539341We probably could have defeated Japan without the use of nuclear arms in WWII, but we dropped two of those suckers anyway to fast forward the war to it's conclusion. The idea is that resources wouldn't be wasted and less lives would have been lost. I know it's kind of a blatant parallel
>>17539350>implying the Titans wouldn't just move their fleet out of range and send mocking communications to any demands to surrender>implying titaniggers deserve anything but a violent death>literally saying "all sides are bad"rAdIcAl CeNtRiSm
>>17539205Yes, it's almost like Full Frontal's tactics don't fit a theme or motif in a picture about Zeon's problems and so he wasn't included. Never mind that even if he was, it wouldn't be as easy to sum up the problem with his faction as putting a single small picture with some pithy text. Also, of course the Federation treated him like the devil: his plan was predicated on impoverishing the Federation by forming all the Sides in to an economic bloc that excluded them.>>17539217Mineva didn't make fun of him for not being genocidal; she said that it was obvious he wasn't the real Char because he didn't have Char's passion. Char was mad, but he was idealistic in his madness. Frontal was just coldly pragmatic, and even says himself that he doesn't have any personal belief or investment in his plan; it's just what he believes the people of space want. Which makes him different from Char. Additionally, Frontal had no idea he was dealing with reality warping Gundams that could block colony lasers. The most he'd have know through Char's memories is about the Axis Shock; which needed multiple mobile suits and shared desire from a large group of people. Constructing a unit that is way more capable of that kind of act when he has no idea that the Unicorn could do more is indication he was ready to rely on force if need be.>>17539273Gihren flat out tells Degwin he only reduced the population because it'd make the remainder easier to control. That is equally as horrific as the Titans. He might have cloaked it publicly in better terms, but then, so did the Titans. Just look at Jerid rationalizing that one gassed colony could stop a war and save billions.
>>17539297You mean the one that retconned Apolly to be a former Zeon soldier, even though he wears a Federation uniform when meeting Haman? I'm sure that over-rides the animated depiction alright.>>17539310Why are you expecting characters within the anime to represent a more objective viewpoint? Amuro and Bright are both shown to be wrong or biased several times during 0079, so why would you expect that time to be different? Can you not view the events and form your own opinion that you need the cast to reflect one for you?
>>17539405>Mineva didn't make fun of him for not being genocidal; she said that it was obvious he wasn't the real Char because he didn't have Char's passion.But dude.... Full Frontal literally has the ghost of char inside him. And Mineva was like 5 to 6 years old when she met Char. What does she know. kids that age know nothing. Her opinion about char is means nothing. She is a spoiled sheltered kid.
>>17539412>You mean the one that retconned Apolly to be a former Zeon soldier, even though he wears a Federation uniform when meeting Haman?Doesn't mean Apolly is a Feddie. Aeug doesn't really care about uniforms. If you have no clothes you just wear whatever is in stock on the Argama. Doesnt matter if it a uniform or civilian clothes. No dress code are enforced.
>>17539416Mineva doesn't know about the ghost, and the ghost obviously isn't enough on it's own (given it's only a partial thing) considering Frontal acts different from Char and only superficially resembles him. You don't have to be an adult to recognize when someone is acting different to what you recall of them.
>>17539420If no dress code is enforced, and Char, Kamille and Wong wear their regular clothes then there is no reason Apolly couldn't wear his too. Yet, he didn't. He specifically went out of his way to wear a Federation outfit.
>>17539422Mineva barely knows Char. And she was 6 years old. Maybe the ghost of Char simply changed his ways and thinks this new plan is the best going forward. Full Frontal is actually legitimate.
>>17539426Maybe he thought Haman was hot and wanted to look good for her.Maybe Char was like "Apolly I know we don't have a dress code but we are meeting the Queen of Zeon. Don't dress like a schlub like you usually do. You will embarrass us."
>>17539430As far as Mineva is concerned, she knows Char and how Char acts. She can be wrong, but nothing is saying a character can't be subjective or wrong. She isn't though, because we as an audience know that Frontal is acting different from Char too.>>17539433Something he never bothered to say to Kamille apparently. He's not much better himself, given he's going around in a sleeveless top. Which might be cool, but is not formal in any kind of way.
>>17539436>As far as Mineva is concerned, she knows Char and how Char acts.Well Mineva opinion about Char is very hazy and childlike. I take her opinion with a grain of salt.>but nothing is saying a character can't be subjective or wrong.Well you are using her opinion as evidence when her opinion about Char from when she was 5 or 6 years old is uselsss >the ghost obviously isn't enough on it's own (given it's only a partial thing)> She isn't though, because we as an audience know that Frontal is acting different from Char too.We know as the audience that the Ghost of Char is telling Frontal what to do. This is not some vague thing. That's not some whisper. Full Frontal is literally being controlled by the ghost of char. The ghost of char is literally telling Full Frontal the exact design schematics, blueprints, technology, and engineering requirements to build the Neo Zeong Mobile Armor. An entire mobile armor with design schematics! And then supervised it's construction! Don't try to minimize ghost of char. He is a major player and is real. He communicating from newtype heaven. If you wanna talk "as the audience" then we know Mineva is dead wrong.
>>17539456> Well Mineva opinion about Char is very hazy and childlike. I take her opinion with a grain of salt.Good for you. We as an audience still know she's right though, because Char was very driven by ideals through Zeta and Char's Counterattack, even if they were ideals tainted by personal issues and that's not true in Unicorn, where Frontal says he has no personal stake in what he's doing.> Well you are using her opinion as evidence when her opinion about Char from when she was 5 or 6 years old is uselss.Personally, I don't see where you get the idea a 5 year old can't have a view on a person or recall it a few years later but even if you do, I'm not using it as evidence; I'm saying it's her opinion and she was giving her opinion on Frontal. Which we as an audience know is pretty much correct, because we can see more of Char and his life along with Frontal than Mineva would have access to.> Full Frontal is literally being controlled by the ghost of char. The ghost of char is literally telling Full Frontal the exact design schematics, blueprints, technology, and engineering requirements to build the Neo Zeong Mobile Armor.This is only true if viewed with Narrative, and there's no suggestion of it Unicorn. Even then, Frontal obviously has his own thoughts and desires; that he listens to the ghost of Char when it comes to some things doesn't mean the ghost can directly control him or that Frontal has no agency of his own.> Don't try to minimize the ghost of Char.Don't try to minimize Frontal's agency.
>>17539461>Good for you. We as an audience still know she's right thoughYou may not like it, but its the truth. The ghost of char new ideal is the "Side Co-Prosperity Sphere". He is so dedicated to this new ideal that he came back from the dead to control a living person to see it happen. The irony of that is lost on both you and Mineva.>I'm saying it's her opinion and she was giving her opinion on Frontal.A 5 year old's evaluation of a complex adult is not reliable. She only met him for a short period of time. Garma knew Char for far longer but even he didn't know Char truly.>Which we as an audience know is pretty much correctYou repeating that phrase over and over doesn't make it true.>This is only true if viewed with Narrative,Narrative is canon. So it's true. Deal with it. It's not optional like a manga.>Don't try to minimize Frontal's agency.First you argue that Frontal is not relevant because he is merely a vessel and different from Char. But the moment you get called out for being wrong because NT contradicts your opinion suddenly Frontal has "agency". Hypocritical! Full Frontal has chosen his path. The path of the ghost of char.
>>17539456>The ghost of char is literally telling Full Frontal the exact design schematics, blueprints, technology, and engineering requirements to build the Neo Zeong Mobile Armor. An entire mobile armor with design schematics! This is what gets me. This is pretty f*cking amazing that a ghost would provide all of this.
>>17539486>You may not like it, but its the truth. The ghost of char new ideal is the "Side Co-Prosperity Sphere". He is so dedicated to this new ideal that he came back from the dead to control a living person to see it happen. The irony of that is lost on both you and Mineva.Char's soul couldn't rest without fulfilling his ideals, but Frontal didn't see that goal as idealism and only as a utilitarian "greatest good" thing he personally had no investment in. That Frontal had no emotional investment in it should make it pretty clear that he wasn't fully controlled by Char in the first place, because if Frontal and Char were synonymous then it would be an ideal for him.> A 5 year old's evaluation of a complex adult is not reliable. She only met him for a short period of time. Garma knew Char for far longer but even he didn't know Char truly.It doesn't have to be objectively true for her to think it is true.> You repeating that phrase over and over doesn't make it true.You saying that Char's ghost can talk to Frontal doesn't make it true that he exercises direct control over them either. Especially when Char's ghost literally gives up that interact in the finale of Unicorn and yet Zoltan still exists.> Narrative is canon. So it's true. Deal with it. It's not optional like a manga.Not what I said. Mineva isn't viewing him through the events of Narrative in Unicorn and neither is anyone watching Unicorn before Narrative expected to be, given that is the presumed watching order. At no point watching Unicorn are you supposed to be going "Well, this is what Char is controlling Frontal to be/do".> First you argue that Frontal is not relevant because he is merely a vessel and different from Char.No, I didn't. I never said he was not relevant, only that Mineva viewed him as distinct from Char. No idea where you're getting the idea I said he was irrelevant from.
>>17538998>"you"didn't make images >axisconveniently forgetting the drop that literally opens the movie i see>a war crime is a war crimezeon does more of them>>17539341>defending zeek suicide charge to harry feddies to save other zeek friends running five miles to shoot at feddies more as muh honorabbu combatdumb
>>17536352Bonobos also never really figured out much else, because they were content with lots of uninhibited sex and so didn't actually need to impress people and strive for anything. If humans solved everything through sex, science would probably die.
>>17539978>didn't make images HA! convenient of you to suddenly use this excuse. You posted it so you get the response. Too bad so sad.>conveniently forgetting the drop that literally opens the movie i seeYour picture doesn't have an image of that asteroid. It has a picture of AXIS Asteroid. Follow your own logic. If you don't like it, open up your photoshop, edit the image, and put the correct asteroid in. The fact you expect people to argue with you about an image you didn't even post is sad, and desperate.>zeon does more of themIt's not a contest of who does more. A war crime is a war crime. We don't excuse it because the Federation did fewer than others.
>>17540097nitpicking isn't going to change that zeon committed and commits more warcrimes and is a bunch of evil space niggers, been that way since day one. please cope and don't double post next time thanks
>>17538471>>17538475But the feddies commit war crime too. they even help zeon remnant drop a colony so titan get more power. so your argument is invalid. They make colony drop and colony laser and gas spacenoid. you need read manga because it show even more truth. you need be woke enough know feddie problems and oppressing all others.
>>17540118>hey loser! zeon commits war crimes!>point out Federation commits war crimes too>s-s-s-stop nitpicking! i hate space niggers!go back to /pol/
How can anyone support the Federation? They may have some good soldiers, but they are incredibly corrupt. Just look at Unicorn. The Federation teamed up with Anaheim Electronics tried to attack their own ship! And then use a Colony Laser to blow up innocent civilians!
>>17533392while you are correct, had the federation fucked off and allowed the colonies to do what they wanted, the violent extremism wouldn't have been necessary in the first place.But noooo the Feds had to be greedy fucks. The earthnoids deserved getting mulched
>>17540323Two reasons.1) They might be corrupt, but they are less corrupt than the competition and they actually do some good things despite their corruption. Namely, they financed the single largest welfare and construction project in history with the colonies. There might have been some selfishness in the reasons for why, but it was still done regardless. Twice, because they rebuilt the colonies over the decades after the One Year War. They didn't even just build the colonies either, they made most of them quite comfortable and bucolic in design.2) They represent the status-quo, and stability. Which are not terribly attractive on their own, but become much more so when you contrast it against wars that kill billions and involve kinetic bombardment using artificial space habitats.
>>17540323Not actively genocidal.
>>17540354> Side 3: We want independence!> Federation: Okay, have political autonomy to rule yourself.> Side 3: Fuck you, time for war!> Side 6: We want independence!> Federation: Kay.> Side 6: We're going to be neutral!> Federation: Please keep trading with us.> Side 6: Actually, why don't we still be secret buddies?Yup, it was definitely the Federation being greedy and not Gihren.
>>17540172you say this as if i'm calling your """feddie""" warcrime nitpicking and not whatever shit that is with the macros.
>>17540378So.. just "occasionally" genocidal? lmao
>>17540394Well yeah, when's the EF genocidal?
>>17540323Because the other options are Zeon, Jupiter, or Zanscare who are back by Jupiter. And despite the corruption the EF is the lesser evil by miles compared to the shit those other factions have pulled over the course of UC.
>>17540323Didn't Anaheim play both sides?Also we know the Feds have their share of dirty laundry. The EXAM system isn't exactly humane.
>>17540403Not the anon you are replying to.... but the list of grievous Federation offenses include...>Ramming Civilian transports with military vessels>Shooting down Zeon medical transports with white flags>Executing Zeon soldiers who have surrendered>Raping Entire Zeon Villages, Cities, and towns that aren't military targets>Using Solar Ray (without offer of surrender) on Solomon >Letting Zeon remnants use a nuke on 2/3rds of their own Federation fleet in order to gain political power and eliminate opposing Federation sub-factions>Conspiring with Zeon remnants to allow them drop colonies instead of stopping them like their job requires them to>Deleting entire records of their conspiracy to prevent the Public from knowing the truth>Dropping Colonies with the Titans>Threatening to drop more colonies>Using mobile suits inside a colony with threat of suit going nuclear and exploding killing millions>Blowing up holes inside a colony killing tens of thousands if not more>Poison Gassing entire Colonies to put down protests>Using suicidal Nukes and nuking themselves in order to take out enemy troops>Willing to allow elected officials to die>Using special forces to fight inside a colony killing tens of thousands>Building a Colony Laser>Making deals with Neo Zeon>Attacking friendly ships without warning to hide evidence of corruption>Using hyper megaparticle cannons on civilian targets>Rebuilding the Colony laser again in secret and misappropriating funds.>Shooting down innocent civilians with Colony LaserI'm pretty sure there is ton more I could come up with given some more time, but this is off the top of my head.
>>17540449> Using Solar ray (without offer of surrender) on SolomonIs it just one guy who keeps saying this, like it would be expected or normal for any military? The military don't generally ask for surrender prior to attack, because stopping and asking for surrender exposes your own side to risk for no real reason, given how rare it is that an opposing faction would actually take that offer.
>>17540449But those aren't genocide. Stuff like "ramming a transport" isn't trying to kill everyone in a Side, and building some gigalaser to blow things up also isn't genocide. Is listing "making a deal with Neo Zeon" a crime on par with genocide? If doing stuff like using a superlaser on an active enemy fortress during combat is a crime, isn't it just as bad to use a superlaser on an entire enemy fleet, much less one with one of your own high officials in it bargaining for peace?
>>17540449Don't forget about human experimentation and body modification on captured civilians and children. A lot of people tend to forget that Federation used slaves and captured children for experimental body surgery. Really nasty stuff. Not even the original Zeon did that kind of shit shit.
>>17540467Yeah, I think it is. I don't really get why it's a problem either myself, the solar ray was being used in combat at all times.
>>17540467It's been standard practice when using weapons of mass destruction. When the US used nukes on Japan during WW2, the US announced what they were going to do beforehand unless Japan surrendered.
>>17540474>body horror surgery and human organ experimentationDA FUQ!? That is.....pretty gruesome stuff.
So the Federation is a dick, but Zeon is an asshole?
>>17540489The Federation is like that nice neighbor who lives across from you in a house, and generally polite to everyone. But has a secret soundproof basement with kidnapped women chained to the wall. Zeon is like that asshole neighbor across the street who has loud parties at 3AM and rowdy drinking.
>>17540474Aside from their not!Hitler youth that they crammed into flying deathtraps (Igloo), they also had a program where they took in orphans and pumped them full of physical enhancement drugs in an attempt to produce soldiers with newtype like reflexes. This left the kids with permanently fucked up physical and mental development (Ridden MSV manga). And the whole thing with the puru clones (ZZ). Zeon definitely experimented on kids.
>>17540503There's also those kids from 08th MS team from the Zeon newtype research program that Michael and Kiki found.
>>17540497>Zeon is like that asshole neighbor across the street who has loud parties at 3AM and rowdy drinking......and also has kidnapped women chained up in the basement. And a swastika flag hanging from his garage. And rear ends your car but tells insurance that YOU backed into THEM.
>>17540503Did they do surgery on their bodies like the Federation did? What about systems like the Federation's EXAM which makes you go crazy?
>>17540503> they also had a program where they took in orphans and pumped them full of physical enhancement drugs in an attempt to produce soldiers with newtype like reflexes. Where the Federation captured the data and program, and rather than destroying it, decided: "hey this is a great idea. let's keep it going and experiment on MORE children and MORE civilians in the Federation. In fact let's take it a step further do experimental surgery and fuck up their brain and organs."Yep that Federation is sooo righteous.
>>17540513EXAM was first developed and tested by Zeon. The scientist who developed it then defected to the EF and brought his research with him.
>>17540513If cyber newtypes are any indication, yes.
>>17540481Weapon of mass destruction covers more than nukes, anon. It covers biological and chemical weapons too. Which were used extensively during WWI without any attempts to ask for surrender beforehand. Carpet bombing is effectively use of weapons of mass destruction too. It takes a few hundred (or even thousand) bombs to do it instead of one, but that doesn't matter to the people it kills. Nor is the timescale generally too different, since carpet bombing was done over an hour or so and generally didn't give people the time or chance to escape. Again, no surrender was asked before their use. That it happened once or twice does not make it standard procedure. Especially just before an actual battle, when doing so exposes your side to further risk.
What is up with these Federation apologists? It's a terrible organization with a terrible history just like Zeon. The Federation should be torn down and replaced with a more responsible government that cares about its citizens.
>>17540513>Did they do surgery on their bodies like the Federation did?Yes. And drugs. And mind control. Zeon did literally all the same shit the EF did with their cybernewtype program, especially in its early stages.
>>17540550>>17540513The purpose of said research being to turn minors, the elderly, and the otherwise unsuitable into pilots.
>>17540550>>17540552It's also noted to have permanently fucked up the people involved.
>>17540550So why didn't the Federation stop the experiments then?
>>17540535Grey vs. black
>>17540558Same reason Zeon didn't stop after the war ended. Newtypes were the hot new military resource.
>>17540449>>Raping Entire Zeon Villages, Cities, and towns that aren't military targetswhen?
Literally everything bad the EF did Zeon also did but bigger and worse.
>>17540574You got it backwards there buddy. Zeon did it first, but the Federation took Zeon technology after the war and their evil methods and made it even worse. Federation came later and had far more resources to do more effed up stuff.
>>17540579Name one thing that the EF did worse than Zeon.
>>17540535Yea, the Federation should be replaced with the kind of government that would build enough homes to house everyone and they should make those places idyllic to boot! The Federation is far from perfect, but it's imperfections are fairly standard for large governments. Yes, even with corruption, abuse of power, experimentation on citizenry and so on that still makes the Federation pretty normal for a major world power. See, the US for instance. They are still the better choice, and still actually do some good things despite those horrors. They also still run via an, at least nominally, democratic system and there is some expectation or hope that change can be achieved within the system rather than necessitating it's destruction in order it to enact any change. Which is basically what happened with the Titans. One element of the Federation became too authoritarian and the rest rejected them. They might have done so partially for selfish reasons, but they were still able to do so regardless.
>>17540584Like the anon said 4 posts ago....Not stopping and destroying the evil research started by Zeon scientists and The Federation giving them a bigger budget. It's their responsibility as the good guys to put a stop to it. instead they gave in to evil.
>>17540599Zeon also continued the research and did nothing to stop it. Most of what the EF did after acquiring it was copy what Zeon did before with running various enhancements and brainwashing experiments, and to the best of my knowledge the EF producing such cyber newtypes stopped after booting out the titans. Meanwhile Zeon took that research and after creating dozens of cloned children subjected them to all that to mass produce cybernewtypes in ZZ. Char then continued that research with his own Neo zeon. And even in Unicorn and NT Neo Zeon is still doing horrific cyber newtype shit. Like I said, everything bad the EF did Zeon did bigger and worse.
>>17540616You still didn't address the original issue of why the Federation didn't destroy the data or stop the research when they beat Zeon in the OYW. If the Federation didn't give into evil, Neo Zeon would have nothing to work with. The Feddies had their chance forever end evil research but they ruined it.Unless you can come up with a good explanation on why the Federation should continue evil research, or admit that >>17540584 answered your question.
>>17540629Because that's not the original issue. I claimed that everything bad the EF did Zeon did bigger and worse. I never said anything about them not destroying the data and continuing it not being fucked up and evil.I openly said the EF did fucked up shit.I then said Zeon was even worse about continuing the research, which is in line with the original point >>17540574.
>>17540599>good guysMore of a lesser evil.>>17540629He doesn't have to. You're choosing to pin Zeon's behavior on the EF. It doesn't matter if the EF didn't destroy research if they weren't the ones who used it the most and most often, methinks; it's out of their hands at that point what happens. Zeon choosing to continue to use bad shit for bad purposes puts the blood from that point forward on their hands.
>>17540629>If the Federation didn't give into evil, Neo Zeon would have nothing to work with.Except they would, because Axis Zeon took a bunch of that data with them when they fled to the asteroid belt at the end of the war and continued it on their own. The EF destroying and banning the data would have absolutely no effect on stuff like the puru program.
After hearing all the nastiness in this thread about both sides I am wondering why people would even support the Federation. Zeon is evil but the Federation is opportunistically evil. If an opportunity arises where they can benefit (even if it's evil) then the Federation will do it without hesitation. Which is even worse in my eyes. I don't trust Zeon but I absolutely do not trust the Federation either.
>>17540584Allowing Zeon to escape to Axis instead of sending a fleet to smash them once and for all ending all future conflicts.
>>17540645whitebased and fedpilled
>>17540644Because the EF isn't an outright dicatorship that atively plans to cull the population and when left to their own devices and not being actively prodded by a group like zeon they lapse into more typical bureaucratic corruption and eventually start to fall apart. By F91 they're already starting to lose control of their outer colonies, by Victory they're on the verge of collapse and the colonies are mostly left to their own devices, and by the events of crossbone dust the colonies basically have the freedom they wanted and basically end up going full warring states period.
>>17540645>ending all future conflicts.Except for the Delaz fleet. And the remnants still on Earth. And the people like Char hiding out in groups like the AEUG.
>>17540644Picking between opportunism and outright actual evil is an easy choice.
>>17540645Ouch. That's for sure! Good point. If the roles were reveresed, Gihren and Zeon would have NEVER allowed the Federation to escape and hide on an asteroid slowly rebuilding their power. Zeon would have wiped them out completely.
>>17540645>>17540655You guys VASTLY underestimate how big the asteroid belt is if you think they would be able to find one asteroid shaped colony hiding in it even after decades of searching.
>>17539209>1930s and before>post-modernistsyou are very, very dumb.
>>17540323>How can anyone support the Federation?Confirm to never watch Victory
>>17540449All of that combine still can't compare to wiping off 1/3rd of humanity anon
>>17540736It looks like he bent his elbow to do that.
Federation is bad because they let Neo Zeon live over and over again in order to have a "bad guy" to fight in the public. They don't want to finish them off because without a bad guy, then they will have to reduce their military spending. That makes the Federation the most bad.
>>17535513>>17535436>>17535405>>17532146>>17532127IIRC the Antarctic treaty was mentioned in Zeta Gundam when the Feddies nuked Jaburo. In regards o the Granada Accords, to people like Delaz who didn't recognize the new Republic of Zeon, he was still running off the Antarctic Treaty. which is why he brought it up during the Delaz Declaration saying the Feddies violated it so he just went all in on using the Feddie's nuke against them and doing the colony drop.
>>17540862because spacenoids never start shit, it's all the EFs doing.
>>17540916>Carrazo literally tore the hull from the Vigna Ghina to kill his daughterSpacenoids everyone.
>>17540931>>Carrazo literally tore the hymen from the vagina to kill his daughterfixed
>OYWSpacenoids>Delaz FleetSpacenoids+rouge extremist faction within The Federation>Gryps ConflictRouge extremist faction within The Federation+Spacenoids later on>First Neo Zeon WarSpacenoids>2nd Neo Zeon WarSpacenoids>Cosmo BabyloniaSpacenoids>Jupiter Empire WarSpacenoids>The Age of Warring States in SpaceSpacenoids>Zanscare WarSpacenoidsWew lad look at all of these noble and peaceful spacenoids
>>17540916>Local man got cucked so hard he tries to exterminate everyone on Earth
>>17530904>That whole scene>Democracy bad OK!
>>17540535I agree with that in principle, but the only remotely viable alternative power structure has a long recorded history of being a fuckton worse than even the Feds.Unironically, Gundam Seed presents an AU where the non-assholes from both sides form an alliance of reasonable people, except Destiny kinda crapped on that retrospectively.
>>17540989Just give every Side their own independence, and let them trade as an independent country/nation. Stop trying to rule every side from Earth.
>>17541022Agreed thats the way to go. Federation just too big to manage properly
>>17541022The Federation does actually give independence to Sides that demand it. Side 3 was autonomous with years before the One Year War going by the movie trilogy and Side 6 was completely independent in 0079, while the Federation's first move with Char in Char's Counterattack is to just give him Sweetwater as an independent nation.
>>17540966>The Age of Warring States in Space>Spacenoids>Zanscare WarSpacenoidsYou have these reversed, Dust happens after Victory. >>17541022That's basically what's happening in Dust. After Victory gundam the EF is way to weak to hold onto control over the colonies and they begin to go independent. Except in a twist that shocks no one spacenoids are really bad at getting along with each other and instead of an era of prosperous open trade its basically Japans warring states period but in space with giant robots.
>>17541422>DustYeah that happened after victory but the Age of Warring States in space start much earlier even before Victory Gundam. Hence why we see several "independent" colonies like the Macedonia Colony while remain independent from Earth they still terrified over the Zanscare Empire
>>17541409>the Federation's first move with Char in Char's Counterattack is to just give him Sweetwater as an independent nation.Char did more for Zeon as a proper spacenoid independence movement than any of his predecessors, but he throws it all away because he's more concerned with fulfilling a weird approximation of his father's vision, which seemed more like an excuse to pick one last big fight with Amuro.
>>17541448> Char did more for Zeon as a proper Spacenoid independence movement than any of his predessecorsWell, Side 3 was independent since around Deikun's time going by the movie and the Federation just gave Haman Side 3 as a nation, so not really. Any of them could have gotten just independence if they'd been interested in just that. The Federation is actually surprisingly easy going in that respect.
>>17540385You kinda missed the whole embargo and military buildup after Zeon declared independence. Also Zeon helping Side 6 gain their independence
>>17541509Hard to miss something that isn't there. And that makes no sense anyway, given the sheer impossibility of enforcing an embargo in space and the fact that Side 3 were free to trade with multiple other factions (Side 6 and Jupiter), which would make an embargo pointless.
Even when the war was in full swing nobody dared fuck with the Jupiter Energy Fleet since they were the only source of Helium-3 needed for fusion reactors (which is a real thing by the way). The only fucks that were crazy enough to do so were mars zeon decades later who were raiding their transport route.
>>17530904hitler was not a bad guy, and its degwins fault for ruining zeons dream and trying to take all the power for selfish reasons.
Zeon is a essentially a benevolent, or evil dictatorship. It comes down to who is in charge.The Federation is a essentially a corrupt democracy.Comes down to preference.
>>17542163Agreed 100%. I'm surprised so many people missed that allegory. There have been plenty of benevolent Monarchies in the past that cared for its people. If someone like...Mineva were in-charge of the original Zeon, I doubt there would have been war.Similarly, if Gihren was born in the Federation on Earth, then he most likely would have pursued power. He's a man who craves power and control. I can see Gihren climbing the ranks of the Federation to become Chairman or some high ranked Admiral. Then trying to start a war with the colonies.They are too side of the same coin, and that's what Tomino was trying to tell us when he showed us an evil Federation in Gundam Zeta even though in the previous series he showed us that the Federation were the "good guys".
>Get on this board>See this thread>”Wait, is zeon the bad guy?”>over 200 repliesWhy are you like this /m/
>>17540566Zeon was full of rapebabies after the OYW
You know I used to think Zeon was bad, but after read all available english translated manga, and many untranslated ones, I really question it now. They throw a lot of shade on the Federation's antics. I may not agree with the Zabi's decision to drop colonies, but I completely understand their pent-up frustration when dealing with the Federation. When you treat space citizens as second or even third class citizens for decades, then don't be surprised when there is a rebellion. Space Racism from the Federation is very real.
>>17542471Please name some.
>>17542163Zeon has never been benevolent. The politics in Gundam aren't on the same level as, say, Legend of the Galactic Heroes.
>>17542163The only benevolent Zeon factions that comes to my mind are maybe the original Deikuns and a small faction of holdouts on an otherwise abandoned colony in the silhouette f91 manga (Basically it was a small group with no real weapons other than a single geara doga who wanted to just be left alone at that point). The principality, delaz fleet, neo zeon, axis, sleeves, and mars zeon are all pretty damn aggressive with their military and pretty callously throw their own people into danger.
>>17530904the only good guys are the AEUG, changing the EF from the inside would have worked.
Reminder the Federation keep Zeon-remnant afloat to justify their military spending
>>17530904Yer, the infantry. Stop surrounding yourself with Zeeks
>>17542911>>17542913>>17542916Yeah. Several manga mention that the Federation secretly keeps the Zeon Remnants around. The Federation keeps Zeon alive. Fed deserve all the pain they get for their mistake.
LOL. You people are funny. Federation are good guys?? In Unicorn they attack a transport ship without provocation or evidence. They attack an entire Civlian Colony with special forces units to seize technology. Then they fight INSIDE the colony and blow up mobile suits killing tens of thousands and venting atmosphere in space. Then Londo Bell takes Mineva Lao Zabi, the last surviving Princess of Zeon, hostage. Then they try to destroy and crew their own ship to hide evidence. Then threaten to kill a war hero, Captain Bright's family if he doesn't cooperate with them. And use a COLONY LASER to blow up a civilian colony from long range to hide evidence of corruption. AND this is AFTER the Titan's were defeated. This is supposed to be the nicer version of the Federation.Is Federation less evil than Zeon? Shaky at best. But you damn well better not try to portray them as good people. They will kill your family if it suits their interests. Even blowing up colonies is not beneath them. But then they do it with a smile on their face pretending to uphold the moral good. THAT'S what is even worse. Zeon never tried to hide their colony drops. They showed the world. While the Federation tries to murder your family, blow up your colony, or throw you in prison secretly.
>>17543331Unicorn is Zeon fanwank of the highest caliber and should be ignored.
>>17543331errr.....Unicorn was a mistake.
>>17543331>They attack an entire Civlian Colony with special forces units to seize technology.WELL MAYBE IF A CERTAIN ZULU DIDN'T PANIC, WE'D NOT HAVE HAD A FIREFIGHT ON OUR HANDS.
>>17543331Don't forget about the Nahel Argama using bombs to blow up civilian colony bridges, and then it's Mega Particle Cannon on a civilian colony slamming the separate asteroid colony units into each other causing untold damage and death. To add insult to injury - who is gonna pay for damages? Of course this was done as a "black ops" mission. Federation will deny ever doing it to the civilians living in the colony. The already poor people in the colony will have to suffer even more to fix their homes (if that's even possible).>>17543558The Federation were already in violation first the moment they broke into the colony with ground troops.