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I am incapable of holding a moral or political conversation in which I can explain my ideas in a coherent and convincing way. It's not like I don't have any political or moral stances, whatever the topic of the conversation is, but rather I can't organize a reasonable speech without a preliminary preparation. Furthermore, I have always been an introvert and I have a weird-sounding voice.
What are the best books or classes that will help me improve my conversation skills and my ability to express myself?
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>Read Formalism in Ethics and Non-formal Ethics of Values: A New Attempt Toward the Foundation of an Ethical Personalism.

Just jump right in there head first, unprepared, even if you only grasp 25% that 25% is worth 25 books.
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>>13452413
What the fuck is that
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>>13452385
Study philosophy or political science at a university. Do the readings, go to tutorials, and articulate yourself, perhaps poorly at first, but with increasing proficiency over time. Practice and git gud.
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>>13452467
>Study philosophy or political science at a university
I already read philosophy by myself, and I don't want to get a useless degree.

>Do the readings, go to tutorials, and articulate yourself
Yeah that was the question. Which books and tutorials are the most useful.
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>>13452488
>I already read philosophy by myself, and I don't want to get a useless degree
Reading philosophy on your own will not improve your ability to communicate the ideas you've learnt. It's a bit contradictory of you to demand people spoon-feed you methods of improvement, and then reject what is likely the best way of improving your oratory skills. its very rare to find high-level discussions outside of a seminar and without a well-informed tutor to guide the discourse, so you will rarely have the opportunity to practise. Books aren't half as valuable as the practical experience of talking about them with others.
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>>13452385
shiftymine
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>>13452385
Sounds to me like you suffer from social awkwardness due to a lack of socialization. I suffered this too; my childhood and teen years had untold thousands upon thousands of hours playing videogames, watching movies, television, etc. Very little social interaction outside of school, and that's not enough. Get out of your comfort zone, talk to people. Yes, you'll likely make a fool of yourself at times. That's okay, you're learning, and with every failure you're hammering out a kink in the sword you're forging. You'll learn what works, and what doesn't. In time, you'll find that people actually enjoy talking to you, provided you follow truth.

What are your political stances? If you're a Socialist, nothing will stop you from looking like an idiot when faced with people who understand history.
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>>13452413
>>13452428
Nonsense pro pragmatist, individualist, capitalist ethics that denies anything but a materialist conception of ethics
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>>13452505
Try toastmasters and just get on discord and get in many debates and practice explaining or debating a fictional person (you get better at anticipating rebuttals and coming up w novel work around, I'd practice 30 minutes twice a day)

There are tons of ways just have to be active
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>>13452526
This guys advice is sound, I was in the same situation as you OP and just started going for it a few years ago.
The root of it is anxiety/poor socialization, work on that, also writing down thoughts and opinions into something coherent helps greatly.
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>>13452385
Write a diary. Converse against yourself.
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>>13452385
Never gonna make it.
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>>13452385
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>>13452385
What you're looking for is philosophy (specifically value theory, like political philosophy and moral philosophy in your case). Literally what philosophers do is argue for a living, and philosophy education is all about training you to express your beliefs through convincing arguments.
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>>13452526
>Sounds to me like you suffer from social awkwardness due to a lack of socialization
Yeah, my childhood was kinda like yours since I have always had few friends and they all were from school. In the last months I started going out and I was able to make friends with a couple of interesting people but I still have problems talking to people I don't know.

>If you're a Socialist, nothing will stop you from looking like an idiot when faced with people who understand history.
Questionable but ok. I'm right winger though.
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I have conversations in my head about all the positions I take on issues. When one inevitably comes up I can speak as if I have notes in front of me and make very eloquent arguments as I've already said them before. It also helps when someone says something, you can say something witty and humors quickly. I attribute all my 'social' success with pre rehearsed conversations with myself. No one knows, I still do it to this day in the shower, the gym, running, etc. I literally imagine every scenario I have to talk to people to be able to have conversations. It becomes extremely apparent when meeting new people, everyone says I'm really quiet and I don't usually act like that so that's a con I guess.
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>>13452685
That's nice. I have conversations in my head too but you took it to the next level.
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>>13452385
Pick your battles OP, start expressing your opinions to people who will at least listen and converse, level headed friends are a good place to start.
Normies (and people on this website) will tolerate about 3 or 4 counterpoints to their idea before they just attack your character, civilised debates like you see on Youtube rarely happen and people who enjoy discussing ideas are rarer.
Conversing with people like that gets exhausting quickly, especially if you don't know how to deal with them when they devolve into shit-flinging.
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>>13452385
If you have to come here for advice on how to speak like a big boy I can almost guarantee you have nothing to add to any discussion. Stay inside and play your videogames.
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>>13452526
Why the hell are you on 4chan my dude
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>>13452603
This is going to sound autistic and/or schizophrenic, potentially, but there's something that I do that I find helps quite a bit. I even find it enjoyable. It could be based off a conversation I've had previously, or could be something entirely fabricated, but it's a conversation. I think it's in part fueled by my writer's imagination; I've written so much that I find that I can think of things in pretty close detail and can follow logic so that things maintain realism. So what it is, is that I think of this previous or fabricated thing, could be as simple as a single question, and I begin talking (very quietly of course) as though I'm taking part in this conversation. I imagine the person I'm talking to, knowing full-well that they're not present and that it's not a real conversation, but I find it incredibly easy to formulate their side in my head and then I respond in kind. Yeah, I sit there and partake in a conversation with someone who either isn't present or doesn't exist. Sometimes it can even get tricky, could give me some things to research because I've found a spot in my belief system that turns out to be weak and that if someone were to press me on it, I would be defenceless to some degree.

It sounds sketchy, I dare say, but I firmly believe that this strange practice has helped me to be as articulate as I am, likely also helping me in instances where I find myself in a debate or argument with someone, since the 'conversation' often involves sparring to some degree. Discussing ideas and asking questions, often it's with individuals on the left and are opposed to my right-wing views, though sometimes it might be something more casual and enjoyable. Like, how would I describe to someone the process of disassembling a certain firearm that I'm intimately familiar with? Still, it's no proper substitute for conversation. I suppose one way of looking at it is that this 'imaginary conversation' concept is the social equivalent to working out at a gym, but it is limited in its benefit in real conversation just like working out at a gym is limited in its benefit in a fight. You can hit the heavy bag and the speed bag and what not, but sparring would be far better practice just like having a real conversation with a real person would be far better practice.

Actually, isn't something like this done by some people when preparing for interviews, or preparing to give a speech?

>>13452673
Glad to hear you're on the right. Get out of your comfort zone and interact with more people, it'll do you wonders. Sounds like you're already on track.
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>>13452859
That's a funny question. Why not?
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>>13452586
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>>13452919
Hm. Fair enough. It just surprises me to see someone with their shit together here.
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>>13452938
Have any rebuttal?
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>>13452980
I dunno if I'd say I have my shit together. I'm presently on welfare, had been a bit over a year ago as well, in the past year when I wasn't on welfare I was getting EI funding for my basic education which I hadn't gotten when I was a teen. Now in September I'm going back into EI-funded schooling, however it'll be for 2 years to get a journalism degree. I don't intend on becoming traditionally employed during this time, though I'll be continuing my writing career. I've been making 3-figures per month for a year now, haven't yet reached 4-figures but came bloody close once, and around halfway reached it a few months too. Unemployed, single, most of my 20s are over, for over a year I hadn't needed to go to a food bank but now on welfare again I have to use it again, but hey, at least it's there. No family, few friends, renting a room with a REALLY shitty room mate to deal with whom represents a prime example of a wasted life. Really, there's some measure of sadness in each of my room mates; one's a waste, another's a tragedy, and yet another with apparent psychological issues. At minimum, unfortunately, I think he's been born with a terribly low IQ that prevents him from functioning as efficiently as most. Not meant to be an insult. I help him on occasion.

I think openly, including about important or controversial matters. I take truth with a literally religious degree of seriousness, perhaps even to a fault on occasion. I'm quite right-wing in most of my views I think, Libertarian in many regards, though I also harbour a hatred for the religion of Islam. I'm also actively looking into the 'Jewish question' to see if the anti-Semites have much in the way of truth in their view beyond the fact that Jews fill many top positions in Western society. Their answer to that seems to be 'nepotism+malice', mine is more like 'nepotism+IQ'. I can't fault them for in-group preference because if I ever own a business in which I hire people, I'll likely only hire men such as myself, and even then ideally I would be able to vet them so that they're only right-wingers. As for race... yeah I'll probably refrain from hiring Blacks or Arabs. Asians are chill as far as I'm concerned, preference towards East Asians as opposed to Indians, NO fuckin' Muslims, NO fuckin' feminists whether they be male or otherwise, probably to traps unless they're sensible right-wingers like Blaire White, but yeah, more than likely group photo at work will have almost all White men with maybe an Asian and/or Indian, perhaps even some MAGA hats worn proudly as well. Or I suppose KAG hats come 2020-24.

The Ashkenazi Jews (basically really White-looking Jews) seem to have the highest average IQ on the planet with even the lower estimates bringing them higher than any national or racial IQ. Thus, they'll inevitably climb to the tops of hierarchies; IQ is the greatest predictor of long-term success on the planet! Thus, nepotism+IQ. I don't see the malice.
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>>13453170
If you're on welfare you shouldn't be wasting time on image boards. Stop being a leech one way or another by any means necessary. ;^)
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>>13452983
God is a person.
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>>13453567
Indeed, to be on welfare is to be a leech to some degree, with the greatest degree being when someone is both able-bodied and able-minded, which I am. Well, for the most part. I lost my shit a couple times when working in fast food, couldn't stand the rushes where I was absolutely go-go-go, basically functioning primarily on muscle memory, making order after order after order, without any real deep thinking or sense of meaning. I mean, yeah, feeding people is great, but it drove me nuts. Put my head through some drywall and then nearby broke a fridge in another fast food job. Nope, could go back into construction but I found that to be soul-draining as well. Even wept on my way home at times, because I knew I had another long 10-hour shift the next day with a hour's drive there and an hour's drive back, and those 10-day shifts seemed never-ending.

Thankfully, though, I DO contribute to a modest degree. I'm a writer, I earn money by writing for people, and indeed it's been steadily 3-figures per month so it could very well be considered a part-time job. The money I make goes directly into helping the local economy, buying groceries (and booze, admittedly), sometimes going to fast-food places and tipping as I do so if there's a tip jar. In doing so, I'm paying taxes, and some of the money spent in the goods I purchase is going towards employee's pay cheques as well as to the owner of that local business, even if a chunk also ends up going to an overseas company. It still helps. If I didn't make that money from writing, that's less money being made locally, which if it becomes low enough then people would start losing jobs, businesses closing down, more people on welfare like myself of having to start all over again with a possibly lower-paying job, etc.

So while I am indeed a leech to my nation to a degree, it's at least to a lesser degree than most, and also I haven't ALWAYS been a leech. I've worked, in fact I once had over $20,000 in the bank, no joke. So I've paid A LOT of taxes, but now, I am struggling, don't have family anymore since I needed to get away from some of them, I'm in a brand new city (for me, anyways) and thankfully there's systems in place to catch such people when they fall instead of leaving them to the streets. So I've given much to the Government in the past, and now, I need some help from them in the present. I'll be going to College before long, EI-funded, and it seems to be a necessity to get traditional employment with it but what I actually LEARN there will help me in trying more entrepreneurial ventures. I can and have made pretty decent money entrepreneurially via writing, and that skill (as well as my daily absorption of news) lends itself well towards journalism. I'm also not a dirty fuckin' fake-news-writing basedboy leftie journalist who wants to be very selective with truth (or completely disregard it) so as to push a narrative that goes with their bias. Truth is the only way, whether I like it or not
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>>13452586
tf does that even mean
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>>13452526
>If you're a Socialist, nothing will stop you from looking like an idiot when faced with people who understand history.

die
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>>13453924
Lmao
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>>13452910
Pretty incoherent post anon but I do this too. I find it doesn't help me because I end up anticipating the conversation going down avenues that it doesn't in reality go down. I never encounter in my own illusory conversations the main stumbling block which hurts my real life conversations and that is the indifference of other people.
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>>13452385
Watch stand up comedy and emulate it. Deliberately develop and wear your persona in public. Work out and dress well. Learn to sing and you will be able to change your voice at will and be better at accents and impersonations.
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>>13454816
You haven't done any of this have you autist.
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>>13453170
>following truth
What do you mean by "truth" there buddy?
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>>13454837
I have done all of it. Have done open mic stand up actually.
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>>13453924
Venezuela looks like they're going to be freeing themselves of their Socialism, hopefully Cuba does as well. Want to see a difference between a Socialist and a Capitalist nation? Look at North and South Korea. North, they're starving. South, one of the greatest nations of Asia and a major technological ally of the West, like Japan. Sadly, many nations of the world seem to hate America, just as I used to hate America. I don't anymore. I've learned and developed.

>>13454814
Well I find it to be helpful. It's not so much a method to try and prepare myself for an anticipatory debate that I would otherwise be weak in, it just seems to be broadly beneficial. Just because I do that odd practice and then when I get into an unsuccessful conversation or debate or joke the next day, I don't think "oh darn, well that was useless!" I think "well now I know that THAT experiment didn't work", not the experiment of the strange practice but rather whatever thing I did/said that resulted in failure. If the situation in the practice ends up being the topic of the conversation/debate/joke the next day, and it still fails, well more context is needed to know precisely why. Maybe, although you're picking away at an idea, the idea itself is flawed or even false right from the foundation. Or, maybe you took the concept in one direction but they ended up branching into a completely different branch of possible outcomes and the one THEY went with ended up being slightly closer to the truth than the series of branches that YOU were following. The truth is the apple, but it only rests at the final branch of one or some of them. If that makes any sense. Or the person you were interacting with was simply more articulate and/or logical and so just ended up running circles around you verbally and so that's why it always seems to go badly. I dunno, I just found the concept to be helpful but that I also happen to find interesting.

>>13454850
Don't lie; either be honest or choose not to answer. Don't be malicious or spiteful; try to do the right thing even if you want to do evil and it HURTS not to do said evil. Also, try not to be fearful, because fear can breed cowardice and lying is generally done out of cowardice of one form or another. You lie because you don't want to deal with the potential repercussions of truth, so be truthful and face the consequences to make thing right because personally I think the truth will come around to bite you regardless especially if you lie to try and manipulate truth, not only will it still bite you somehow either directly or indirectly, but people will discover you to be a coward and a liar in the process. Imagine the difference between someone who did something stupid but owned up to it and made things right, and someone who lied like the coward he was because he refused to face the just repercussions of their actions. Which do you want to be? Which do you want your friend to be?
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>>13452526
You sound like my fucking dad AAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHH
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>>13452385
m-mommy...
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>>13455296
Then I'm inclined to think two things; your dad may very well be correct and he is probably a reasonably smart fellow.
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Books won’t help much with speaking and arguing. Join a debating society or something. You need to practice.
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>>13455185
You write appallingly
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>>13452467
>go to tutorials
there isn't a bigger waste of time than going to tutorials
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>>13453170
>>13455185
Jesus Christ stop listening to Jordan Peterson you fucking drone. Literally every single thing you said is regurgitated Peterson shit. I know this because I had a phase but you've really drank that kool aid.
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>>13455524
If I find things that are more truthful, then the views I espouse now will be rejected and replaced with something better. Until then, I don't care if I sound like Dr. Peterson.
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I’ve felt this way before, and here are a couple of things I’ve come to realize that might be relevant to your situation:

1) you’re probably not as bad as you think you are

2) other people aren’t as good as you think they are
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>>13454816
I can't think of a more exhausting person than someone who's always in the energy of a stand-up comedy bit
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>>13452505
Get a real degree and just minor in philosophy
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>>13453684
It means that he is resentful retard.
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>>13455558
You won't find shit because you're indoctrinating yourself.
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This thread is cringe. Your ideology has led you to antisocial behavior and an inability to properly communicate or articulate because that is how the ideology teaches itself.

Literally go talk to people and grind it out. It’s like your shitty video games, except you don’t have a visual indicator of your current charisma stat.
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>>13452385
That's much better than being an opinionated, Dunning-Kruger retard like most of the denizens here.
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>>13457406
Filter Dunning-Kruger posters, you contribute nothing.
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>>13456141
The clarity of speech is what I am talking about. The absolute perfect conservation of words combined with the tact to get controversial points across. The enunciation. The delivery. The storytelling. I'm nearly autistic so I had to deliberately develop a persona while normies wear one instinctively. It worked and I got laid blah blah blah. But it is hardly authentic. I can't maintain it indefinitely. A joke I would think up is I prefer semiotics to semantics because I can't read. That is a huge problem for me because I commonly make reference to things people don't know about.
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>>13452385
Huh, hmmmmm. I wonder why.
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>>13457701
Yeah I kind of get this problem as well. I crack a lot of jokes, but they're generally quite dry and about obscure, technical aspects of things, so most people don't realize i'm making an offhanded joke.
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>>13457709
Is there any research behind this or just speculation?
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>>13457834
Both.
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>>13457864
Thank you anon! I always see these pics around, and arguments in nofap but rarely do I see some decent sources and research.
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>>13457864
t-this is repairable and can be healed by abstinence r-right anon?
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>>13457886
Masturbating is completely healthy. When the study says sexual arousal it could mean that your memory and self control is impaired while you are sexually aroused. And as for the porn thing yeah watching porn is bad for you.
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>>13457886
yes. it is important to develop a routine, avoid triggers, and other interests. desexualize your mind.
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>>13457898
Terrible advice. Masturbation habit was instilled by pornography. By doing it, you are maintaining the pathways that pornography initially formed, which will draw on the porn you watched from your memory banks, strengthening them which invariably results in a return to pornography. The idea that masturbation is completely harmless is extremely harmful and leads many to never overcome this all consuming habit.
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>>13457373
Like I said, if I find views that are more truthful, then I will let those parts of myself that are lacking, die, and be reborn with something better. I've done it several times in my life already, it's not something I'm incapable of. Just because you don't like him and don't think he speaks truth doesn't inherently mean that anyone who finds truth in what he says to be blindly indoctrinating themself to him. It could simply be that you're wrong and/or incapable of letting go of your own bias, I assume a bias for something he speaks out against, thus your inherent tribalism makes you lash out at anyone who even remotely seems to hold the same views as him.
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>>13457951

Not that guy but you've assimilated concern trolling as a way to see the world and that is very dangerous.

>Just because you don't like him and don't think he speaks truth doesn't inherently mean that anyone who finds truth in what he says to be blindly indoctrinating themself to him.

See

>It could simply be that you're wrong and/or incapable of letting go of your own bias, I assume a bias for something he speaks out against, thus your inherent tribalism makes you lash out at anyone who even remotely seems to hold the same views as him.

The second line shows pure projection. Flip your point around; why would you have a stake in agreeing with Peterson to the point of rejecting the opinions of others out of hand? Have you already decided you agree with Peterson no matter what?

But let's say you do want to do due diligence on the guy you're responding to. At least read and think about these:

https://thewalrus.ca/the-professor-of-piffle/

https://www.currentaffairs.org/2019/04/how-zizek-should-have-replied-to-jordan-peterson

https://www.currentaffairs.org/2018/03/the-intellectual-we-deserve

While you're at it, look up some decent antiracist arguments there are from primary sources. Read some Frantz Fanon, some Malcolm X, and some Cornel West. Hell, watch West on YouTube.
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>>13458049
I don't know what 'concern trolling' is, and so I don't particularly know how I have managed to make that the way I see the world. I stand by the statements you've outlined; the first one seems outright true. The second, look at how I'm being spoken to. Uncivil cursing, and claims that I'm 'indoctrinating myself' which suggests that I'm not actually thinking about or experimenting what I'm hearing but merely absorbing it blindly. I find that to often be the kind of reaction found in tribalists. "You have views that I don't like, that means they're wrong, and it means you're incapable of proper thought for having found belief in them." Not only that, but I said "it could simply be", so I'm not even saying it's fact. I'm saying that PERHAPS this is the issue, and I suspect it is, but I'm aware that I can be wrong.

You're also assuming that I reject the opinions of others without even giving them consideration. I've spoken to anti-Semites in a very open and thoughtful manner to see what truths and what fictions I can find in their point of view even though I have my own working theory on the 'Jewish question'. I also actively seek conversations with people on the other side of the political isle; leftists. I've challenged my views much in the past couple years and have indeed changed much in the past couple years. As I had stated, I find truth in what Dr. Peterson says, but if I find something that seems more acutely aligned with truth that renders his views to be lacking, then I will abandon them or at least parts of them to adopt what is more truthful.

I don't know what you're referring to by 'anti-racist arguments' or why the topic of racism has even been brought up. In fact if I'm not mistaken, I think I had heard that Malcolm X had anti-Semitic notions. I'd have to do my own research to see if that's true.
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>>13454816
I use method acting instead of stand up comedy but generally it works with normal people.
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>>13458198
Could you elaborate on that? I'm looking for ways to elevate my miserable social skills without having to expose myself to a group first.
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Who fucking cares about politics? You might as well argue about marvel movies and who is stronger, the Hulk or Spider-man
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>>13459101
That's fine, stay out of politics then. Makes the rest of our votes more powerful.

>inb4 votes don't mean anything

Trump. Donald Trump. Donald Trump would NOT have become President if votes were worthless and it was just the establishment handing the torch to whom they prefer.



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