>The West was born at Salamis, but not only in the battle itself strictly speaking but also, and most of all, in the literary transposition Aeschylus gave it. The West was thus born with a dimension of self-reflection. It was born not only as a fact, but as a literary work of a conscious history building – Greek tragedy is where myth merges with history. “The Persians” is not a recent work but quite the contrary – it is, chronologically, the first tragedy written by the first great tragic poet (strictly speaking, it was the second part of the first trilogy, whose first part, “Phineus,” didn’t make it to us). Country, freedom, a sense of history, myth – the cry of eleutheroúte patrída brings them all together in a new synthesis, in a kind of “poetry” in the etymological sense of something created, a human work. That poetry, that creation, is the West.https://www.centerforsecuritypolicy.org/2019/01/07/brazils-new-foreign-minister-gives-profound-philosophical-base-to-trumpian-populism/Is he right?
>>12386286>Aeschylus "Every character speaks in ridiculously long monologues except at one part 3/4 of the way through, where they just say one line to each other, then return to speaking in monologues"I understand Aeschylus was first, and there is a lot of glory in that, but as entertainment, Euripides is better, Aristophanes is best. The Frogs reads like a Mel Brooks script when Dionysus and his slave keep switching costumes.
>>12386313>but as entertainment, Euripides is betterYes, but how scary was Euripides? Some of us have a taste for horror.
>>12386313The Harrison translation of the Oresteia gives it a totally different feel--primal and menacing. I think it makes it more entertaining. You might be interested.
>>12386313>The Frogs reads like a Mel Brooks script when Dionysus and his slave keep switching costumesI don't know how Aristophanes does it. Even when he's not being funny, he's funny.
>>12386330>so men get gulled get hauled into evil>recklessness starts it then there’s no stopping>so a Father can take his own she-child take her>and kill her his she-child his own flesh and blood>The war-effort wants it the war-effort gets it>the war for one woman the whore-war the whore-war>a virgin’s blood launches the ships off to Troyshit I'm gonna order this now.
>>12386449>she-childI think that's just taking it a bit too far.
>>12386286"The West" is a spook desu
>>12386286i think its just impressive a 21st century politician knows what salamis is or even knows the name Aeschylus to name drop him.
>>12387322bolsonaro seems like a dude who´s not afraid of anything, unlike his colleague macri who´s a total pussy
>>12386830Not even into Stirner, but this. Of the different ethnicities subsumed by the idea of “the west” several have mytho-histories. Beowulf, the Norse Sagas, etc. Picking one as the alpha is pretty arbitrary.
BR monkeys are NOT westerners
>>12387428>Of the different ethnicities subsumed by the idea of “the west” several have mytho-histories.>Picking one as the alpha is pretty arbitrary.Can't the 'West' as a mythopoetical creation subsume more local mythic histories without erasing them? As for Greek being given central importance, this is primarily a chronological matter. It must be said too that later tragic visions, where myth and history meet, held a great debt to the Greeks--often explicitly so.Consider too how Herakles relates to an Athenian hero like Theseus. You could point to partial assimilation with the former exerting a strong influence on local analogues, but the local myths did persist for a long time.
>>12386286No... just regurgitating pompous romantic 19th century historiography. He probably had a "liberal education" and read many "great books". Greek culture and ideals are radically foreign to what actually became "the West" and aren't as important really, stop looking at Greek city states and more towards Germanic tribes and the history of the Catholic church for the creation of "the West".
>>12387495>Greek culture and ideals are radically foreign to what actually became "the West" and aren't as important really, stop looking at Greek city states and more towards Germanic tribes and the history of the Catholic church for the creation of "the West".What a load of bullshit
>>12387495You're not wrong. What the Greeks mocked as hyperbolic dystopia in their comedies is our reality.>>12387511Moron.
>>12387495>and more towards Germanic tribes and the history of the Catholic churchCheck out the Carolingian Renaissance my man. The Holy Roman Empire patterned itself after its Greek and Roman predecessors. It all circles back to the Greeks.
>>12386313>I don't understand genre or poetry>the most familiar is the best
>>12387522No there's a reason that all of what's called western civilization has looked back on the Greeks as their spiritual forerunners. Only christcucks pretend that western civilization started with christianity.
>>12387743That doesn't change the fact the west is radically unlike the Greek society it honors and invokes. It's perverse to laud democracy as we do.
>>12387743That reason is historical dick wringing. "The West" as we know it today is the anithesis of Ancient Greek thought. It's the antithesis of ancient Roman thought. This need to craft a literary-centered narrative where great thinkers and great writing shapes the course of human history to the point that we can trace the birth of all our selves to a select few individuals is ludicrous.
>>12387743It's based on a highly romanticised and idealised view of an ancient Greek society that never existed.
>>12386286Wow I can't wait to see how him and his administration will live up to the glorious legacy of the west by privatizing all of Brazil's resources for pennies on the dollar so Wall Street kikes can make a killing!
>>12387859>It's based on a highly romanticised and idealised view of an ancient Greek society that never existed.What if it's been that way since the very start?What if even the Ancient Greeks adhered to romantic notions of themselves. Is this not true? Is this not what bound them?
>>12387755But Athens was “democratic”? Expand on your answer I’m curious
>>12387874As bad as that sounds, it's almost certainly better than the alternative.
>>12387884The modern perceptions of Ancient Greece made by politicians are mainly appeals to history and longevity in order to gain some legitimacy. In reality, Greece was not monolithic in the classical era that is so highly romanticised ,containing mostly autocracies in the form of Tyranny and Monarchy with Democracy (esp. the radical forms of the 5th century) being just a blip compared to centuries of autocratic rule. Romaticising the Ancient Greeks is a political move that is completely divorced from reality, as is any appeal to history.
>>12387771>"The West" as we know it today is the anithesis of Ancient Greek thought.When did this reversal occur? The Industrial Revolution? The Enlightenment? The Renaissance? The birth of the European Union? The writing of the American Constitution? When did the West stop being attuned to Ancient Greece.
>>12387376Bolsonaro is a gimp for industrial and financial capital, a dickless little boy masquerading as a King.>>12387495kill yourself
>>12387932I tend to agree, but at the same time collective delusions shouldn't be dismissed out of hand. We define ourselves with such fabricated histories, and they can become rallying points for disparate peoples. This is powerful and good.
>>12387886>direct democracy involving only the most able quarter of the population with requirements like military service>in any fucking way comparable to what's called democracy in the modern dayWhat did he mean by this? There's absolutely no requisite to vote in America for example, other than a pulse and citizenship. The ancient Greeks would look upon such an idea with abhorrence. If this thread were an Athenian democracy we'd be in the process of ostracizing you from the nation.
People are quick to point out that the Athenian democracy was very different from what we might expect given that only adult male citizens could vote, but that's nothing.The biggest difference was the determining of office holders by lot. Most of the time, politicians would literally be picked at random. If everyone is equal (ἰσονομία), why not just pick random people? Their democracy was much more radical than ours ever was. It's a shame it only lasted a few hundred years.
>>12387376Wew. You're clueless.
>>12386330Thanks for the rec, I'll check him out
>>12387495Why do I have a feeling your conception of those Germanic tribes is that of a hyper romanticized way? The 19th century nonsense of the stoic egalitarian and democratic germanic warrior-farmer meeting under the sacred oak for the Thing?
>>12387934>>12387934There never was a reversal. It's more a waking up from this dream of forever-LARPing. Elites citing other elites to give their opinions and power an air of continuity, legitimacy, and superiority. That they actually did not share cultures, beliefs, or values is irrelevant to their purpose in holding "the greats" up as demigods for everyone to emulate. In the route from individual to this ideal, the elites find themselves enviously ahead of everyone else before anyone has started walking. Same is true that of countries, societies, cultures, periods. It's a fantasy and it obscures the chaotic, discontinuous past. This stuff has been questioned since the 60s. But of course maybe this too is another minor bump on the road to our inevitable realization that Plato created modern western man. I'm not opposed to the idea. It's interesting no doubt. But the more I study history the less of a Great Man/ Great Ideologue/ Great Society narrative there seems to be hidden away in it.
>>12386330Which essay is this? Got a link for download or something?
Ah yes, Brazil will be the taste of what's in store for Europe: endless slum around cheap plaster Greco-Roman (((architecture))). Can't wait to be led into debt slavery by puffy mcbeardface over there.
>>12387874This but unironically haha xD
>>12389786>Which essay is this?I snagged it from 'The Oxford Guide to Literature in English Translation'. There's no online version as far as I know, but you might be able to dip into it with Google Books or something. I have a copy of the book if you want me to take a picture of something specific.There's not much more about that specific translation. Here's the page the paragraph is from.
>>12386330>>12388581>>12390405>>12386449https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7sdZQ1BDs0Enjoy it live
This dude looks exactly like me
>>12391228Wow. This is awesome.
>>12387376He literally went back and gave up on almost everything he tried to do, it's the opposite of courage.
>>12387926>people falling for the "alternative is worse" bullshit and voting for a retardWhy did you do this?
>>12393362what? do you happen to know what the alternative was? the alternative is an actual retard
>>12393427>the alternative to a literal retard is a virtual retardAnd you wonder which one is better. Hard to justify it now that he's already proven that he is a corrupt nepotist.
>>12393480fuck off leftist you are delusional
>>12393486Nice argument, disgusting bootlicker. Enjoy your slavery.
>>12393494shouldnt you be promoting identitarian shit you sjw cuck
when a fucking sjw foreigner thinks he knows better about my national politics
>>12393503>>12393516I'm not even a leftist, you disgusting cuck. You're just mad because you got dupped into voting for a LITERAL SIMPLETON who has never held one executive office ever because of "identity politics" and "political correctness". Nice going, goy. Your jew masters are going to be very pleased when you get turned into an exploitation colony once again.
>>12393549youve clearly never read the his opponent's book. stop talking shit about what you dont know. you are just projecting generic geopolitics to the brazilian scenario. read haddad's book and tell me he is a better alternative you fucking faggot
>>12393558>>12393549take it to /pol/ hueshits
>>12386286'The West' was born in 17th century British boarding schools when they had to indoctrinate all the strapping young lads to feel good about plundering the world outside, because all Britain had at the time was sheep-fucking peasants and woolRead Thucydides. There is no 'West'. There are only power struggles and hypocrisy
>>12393572dont tell me what to do you illiterate faggot
>>12393558Haddad is just a mild socialist nobody. His academic work is filler garbage, but at least he can read and write. How can you even argue that a bad academic is worse than a guy who has never wrote (and probably never read) anything in over 25 years of public office?>one of his book is badWhich book did you conveniently pick to justify your vitriol? That is actually the most retarded reason I've ever heard to picking a political candidate.
>>12393599em defesa do socialismo - in defense of socialism. are you fucking schizophrenic? look at what your premisses and your conclusion. "he probably never read so he's worse" then you conclude it's stupid of me to not vote on the alternative based on the views he defends.you are a jew puppet and a retard without knowing
"oh youre retarded for hating a candidate based on what he wrote" but "it's totally ok to hate the other guy because the probably never read in his past 25 years"imagine being this incapble of thinking
>>12393599>a guy who has never wrote (and probably never read) anything in over 25 years of public office?Assumptions out of your ass, I assume?>Haddad is just a mild socialist nobody. His academic work is filler garbageWhich of his books have you read?>That is actually the most retarded reason I've ever heard to picking a political candidate.Says the guy who supports a socialist based on the assumption that his adversary never wrote or read anything.
>>12393619He's definitely never wrote anything. He has absolutely no formal education whatsoever and he's never been poignant or relevant publicly in any issue despite having his share of exposure. Why am I wrong to conclude that he has nothing to offer intellectually?But hey, there's no point feeling bad about your shitty decision now. It's already done!
>>12393657>im a modern cuck who needs an academic leaderyou are common sense incarnated
>>12393665So does Bolsonaro, considering all the right wing schizo intellectuals he's been surround himself with.A literal joke, barely literate, an evangelical babboon, a disgusting joke, this is what your president is, you've been duped, the sooner you accept it the better for everyone else.
>>12393665Never said that. Looks like you're just as stupid as your president. Figures.
>>12393679no, we should vote for the guy who defends full socialism. except that you wrote>Nice going, goy. Your jew masters are going to be very pleased when you get turned into an exploitation colony once again.WHO DO YOU THINK SERVES THE JEWISH AGENDA BETTER? a fucking simpleton or a socialist that wrote about his methods of mining the familial values
>>12393692then why are you praising haddad for his academic works and reducing bolsonaro because of his lack of it. you are a fucking schizo
let me guess you read dugin and you follow the 4th political theory lmao
>>12393707How am I praising Haddad for his academic work? I'm saying at least he's proven he can actually read and write, not that it's any good. It's just better than absolutely nothing. You actually can't read, can you? Disgusting.
>>12393733tell me do you read dugin? do you dont you
>>12393741You must be at least 18 to post here.
>>12393749here? you have no authority. you stink of reddit
guy probably reads dugin and sputnik and thinks he knows about geopolitics
>the foreign minister of a major country is spouting spot-on conservative revolutionary rhetoric from the fucking 1930s >fattened neoliberal babbies read it at face value as "ummm is this nationalism or chauvinism or something??">don't even realize it's exactly the shit heidegger was saying in his political writings after 1933>don't even realize the entire west is currently doing Fascism 2: Electric Boogaloo I CAN'T BELIEVE I THOUGHT WE WERE GOING TO HAVE A SLOW DECLINE INTO TRANNY DEGENERACY DYSTOPIA THIS CENTURYALL THOSE TIMES I WISHED FOR SOMETHING ELSE, I DIDN'T KNOW WE'D GET ACTUAL FASCISMWHAT DID I DO TO DESERVE THIS GIFT
>>12393702Well, Haddad is the one in a stable, monogamic relationship while Bolsonaro is the one full of bastard kids and affairs with coke-ridden musicians, so you tell me.
>>12393707Recognizing Haddad is a functioning adult with an academic job isn't praising him, is recognizing that Bolsonaro is an old fool with the temperament and cool-headedness of an 8 year old.Really, it's not that PT is good, most of the left is on some level or another oposed to them, it's just that the brazilian right is a ridiculous fucking joke. Just look at what PSDB did to São Paulo and Minas Gerais (though PT helped in that one) or what's going on in Rio de Janeiro. You faggots have been duped by druglords, rapists and psychopaths dressed as pastors and upright citizens and you can't even admit it.
>>12393965who are the drug lords? genuinely curious
>>12393970Alexandre Moraes for one, though he was a minister in Temer's, not Bolso's term. But still, I'm not going to look for it because I have better shit to do, but if you want to, you can find a bunch of videos and interviews where Bolsonaro and his kids all praise militias, even though the militias are pretty much just policemen-turned-druglords.It's kinda hard to track these things down but honestly, do you really think someone can become a household in RJ's house of representatives without some traffic leeway?I know I sound very paranoid but honestly, my experience with RJ's police made me so.
>>12393965>What psdb did in São Paulo The state with the biggest GDP and second best HDI?Also, sage for /pol/ monkey shit
>>12393965this is the mind of a blasé ciro elector, who delusionally thinks he's thinking outside of the box and is above the mass. Probably from rio de janeiro too! well you can just keep doing what you do best: remain irrelevant with your irrelevant ideas.
>>12394006Super-riches having above-switzerland quality of life inflate this shit.I live near Belo Horizonte and the GDP per capita of my city is somewhere near 30 thousand dollars.>>12394011Who the fuck mentioned Ciro. Bolsonaro is a fucking disgrace. My opinion of Haddad doesn't have anything to do with how much of an absolute joke of a human being Bolsonaro is. And yeah, I never really entertained the "I"m above the masses" notion but the brazilian masses are forcing me to think so, this whole thing is just a ridiculous shit show.
i'm so sick of cariocas spreading "these rightist men are all druglords", "bolsonaro is a babboon", "the herd mentality" etc. "Let me just go back to my hipster cinephile circle while those brazilians end themselves". You stink of bourgeois shit.
>>12394031Go listen to fucking Gustavo Lima and gobble on some garage-protestant pastor's balls if you fucking hate hipster elitists and whatever so much.The people I mentioned, one was a literal PCC lawyer, a celebrity one at that, while the others are openly pro-militia and you just need to look for that.How a man who despite being a president, spends his time insulting fucking youtubers on twitter, is not a baboon, I will never know.Also, not carioca, you neurotic piece of shit, seek help.
half the article had a few good points ie against "nation building" and neoconservatism, but the other half really came across as cyclical history, reminiscent of the early beginnings of fascism in europe. maybe i'm just too used to spooky scary hitler propaganda but it really did give me a funny feeling in my tummy. if the reactionaries of the early 20th century were right about anything, it's cyclicity.
>>12394061fuck off you hipster ciro elector. why are you posting on my board. go to whichever brazilian chan there is at the moment. you are nothing but a comic impersonation of what the bourgeoisie was 40 years before and i can assure you're no better than the lowest brazilian common sense. you also have a shitty taste for film you pretentious entitled little faggot im gonna dox you
>>12387322this guy is not a politician, hes a diplomatist >>12387376problem is that hes alligning with alien ideologies, hes going to put the last nail in the coffin of what we've got left of a "brazilian culture" and yet hes considered a conservative
>>12394086Are you literally schizophrenic?I didn't vote for Ciro and I never even mentioned shit about film, I don't care about cinema, specially not brazilian cinema. Stop talking to the people in your head, if you're so opposed to intellectualism, fuck off and go be a pleb somewhere else, unless you're one of those pathetic HOMEM DE VIRTÚ faggots, in which case please go on because we're all enjoying the spectacle.
>>12394175brazilian "nationalists" and "patriots" absolutely hate everything about brazilian culture. Brazilian culture for them is Leblon / Higienópolis culture which is itself a fever-dream reading of Miami noveau riche scum.It's a fucking disgrace, no other term for it really. The aesthetic for the next 4 years is going to be pathetic.
>>12394183i took you for someone else. still worth the attempt
>>12394202I see, a paranoid fuck who thinks the left is personally out to get them.No one cares about you you fucking faggot, go play some Crusader Kings and rebuild the Holy Roman Empire in Goiânia or whatever.
It's funny and sad to see what this guy wrote because he tries so hard to say "see, I'm a western too my fellow westerners".Honestly, how can you look at Brazil, Switzerland, America and England and say "yep, same thing"? It's so ridiculous.Brazil isn't part of western society, it's not going to save it, Brazil is what happens when western society dies.
>>12393989I believe it I just need evidence>mil police=drug gangs/handlersits the same in America with the FBI and obviously in Mexico
>>12394201i don't think they hate it, they simply ignore it which is far worse in my opinion
>>12394212nah you're totally wrong on that though. it's not the left who's out to get me but the other way around. im a poet myself excuse me for expressing my emotions too hard on the keyboard and fuck off
>>12394235They do hate it. I'm not saying I enjoy it but like it or not, funk for example is a form of brazilian expression which rose pretty much out of nowhere in a similar fashion in unrelated places all over the world (dub and rap, specifically, though I'm sure there's more) during the same time. These people absolutely hate it and think it's the literal end of brazilian culture (even though the world as a whole seems to have at least some tenderness to it).>>12394246Lmao seek a therapist my lad
>>12394248im mentally healthy dont worry. and i prefer tw games over those from paradox thank you
>>12394215its not fair, westepbros...
>>12394264fantasy is superior you faggot larper
>>12393581This ties invery nicely with Fooly Coolys theories in d&p, specifically about the connection between military and modern schoolsIt's a good book, you might like it if you're into public torture
>>12394215>implying we care about your culture of men in cucks and resentmentwe only care about the west as something we can eat then shit out better while we live in a quasi-pagan bunda heaven, fuck off christcucks, we don't want to be colonized.
>>12394311You should write this to your Foreign Minister, he clearly disagree with you.
>>12394299what fantasy? i play the third age and call for warhammer mods on my med2 tw. get btfo
>>12386286>cuts down ur rainforests
>brazil isn't whi-
>>12394337He is a literal cuckold. Who cares about what he thinks?
>>12386286>probably corrupt government minister of shithole country>"muh West!"
>>12393790You fucking idiot, all these are fully modern liberal men oriented towards the market economy. All the conservative revolutionaries from Heidegger to Junger were deeply environmentally consciousness and would have set up death squads to force the monkeys to replant ithttp://www.ditext.com/heidegger/interview.html> Blood And Soil: Richard Walther Darré And Hitler's "Green Party" https://volkischpaganism.files.wordpress.com/2014/11/bramwell-anna-blood-and-soil.pdf
>>12394080>other half really came across as cyclical history, reminiscent of the early beginnings of fascism in europeDid the fascists really buy into the cyclical history thing? I always thought that was more of a conservative revolutionary thing. I suppose you might like the fascist drive for national renewal to ideas of cyclic history, but I'm not sure the link is strong.
>>12387874t. negro favela shemale dying of AIDS
>>12387874because brazilians surely are the best when it comes to resource management, am i right? XD
>>12388343No one gives a fuck about your downvote cunt.
>>12394024Don’t waste your time with those teenage retards. I’m glad to find another Brazilian who can see things with some clarity.As for the guy in the OP, I’m willing to bet he only heard about Aeschylus because he liked 300 (the movie, just to be clear): I remember some magazines at the time commenting on that film and mentioning Aeschylus play. I’m almost certain the guy never read any other work by Aeschylus (perhaps not even The Persians) and is unable to admire his sublime metaphorical daring and bold imagery. Also, he talks about the West when Aeschylus is clearly one of the most East-inspired of the Greek poets (if I’m not mistaken Victor Hugo comments on that matter).We are politically destroyed. People elected a guy with a lower than average IQ who still thinks like military men in the 50s, a guy who idolizes corrup church-leaders, corrupt militia drug-lords and old submissive-to-the-US pseudo military leaders. He and his crew also like to listen to the opinions of a “philosopher” who criticizes Newton and Darwin and says there’s no evidence to support they fact that the Earth órbita the sun.Bolsonaro is a puppet for millionaires and bankers. Mark my words: inequality will rise in Brazil and also the number of Brazilians living under the line of extreme poverty. Even crime is probably going to become far worse (since the people in Government still think that the war on drugs on the Nixon era style is still the best option).If people both about Trump they should see how much more of full retard we went in Brazil: it’s atrocious.
>>12396085>Bolsonaro is a puppet for millionaires and bankerswhich millionaires? which banks? that said, of course bolsonaro is a dull guy, but thats democracy, the average brazilian likes bolsonaro ideas and the power is on their hands alone to choose which is the best for the countryso, if bolsonaro makes a good term, good for brazil if he makes a bad term, its good for democracy, because politics will get more mature (hopefully)
>>12396578Yes, I agree with you. I’m disappointed with the election, but at least it was democratic: the people spoked and Bolsonaro was their choice. In the post above I wrote some of my concerns, yet what’s left to me is to hope that his government will be good. Rationally I don’t think that it will, but emotionally I really hope that I am mistaken.
>>12394715what i meant was his article was a demonstration of cyclic history itself, not necessarily about it though he did namedrop spengler in the very first paragraph
>>12396769i feel kinda anxious to see the resultsmy biggest concern is a possible protestant boom, and brazilian protestants aren't the most brillant