At what point did Soviet leadership stop being generaly retarded in ww2? What was the turning point? Battle of Moscow?
>>41459737Never. Germans ran out of steam.
Stop? They got worse as time went on, experienced commanders died and got replaced with inexperienced and retarded party ideologues.
Never retarded but moscow was a turningpoint because germans fucked and they make bunch of stuff leading to it
>>41459737Stop being retarded. Red Army in 1941 was a bumbling collosus, while in 1944 it was most feared land army in the world.
>>41459834>while in 1944 it was most feared land army in the world.lol, only because the actual most feared land army in the world had just been tag teamed by the entire planet.
>>41459834>US effort>UK effort>relevantyou know, how many you can pick
The Soviets got their shit together around mid-late 1942, and the pushes were being successfully contested. By 1943, they were making territorial gains and production was outpacing the g*Rmans. All the Wehrmacht veterans were dumped in the east, and they all died. This is the point where Reich command says "oh shit" and recognizes their inevitable demise, evident in even the Mannerheim-Hitler meeting in 1941 where Hitler tells Mannerheim the war is fucked literally two years in.
>>41459737When people like Zhukov got enough balls/rep to tell Stalin to stop being retarded. That and Stalingrad at the very least made him rethink his methods, especially after the complete disaster that was the Winter War.
>>41461322you're generaly retarded
>>41459737>At what point did Soviet leadership stop being generaly retarded in ww2?July 28 1942
>>41459737Soviet high command was filled with Stalin's bootlickers, but the bravery and borderline animal fighting of the soldiers won the war. Read the diary of Germans at Stalingrad, they thought they were fighting devils not men.
>>41459737A few officers showed promise from even before the war by realizing war was coming with Germany. Something Stalin didn't want to believe and which he forced onto Stavka, making the entire military generally unprepared.Stalingrad was when the Red Army as a whole (under Stalin's leadership) finally showed skill instead of just buying time/sacrificing lives. While stopping the Germans outside of Moscow in 1941 was a success, it wasn't turned into a victory that regained what was lost. At Stalingrad, the Soviets recognized where to build their defenses, how to counter the Axis forces, and used an encirclement to not only defend the city but punish the Germans for trying to take it. A lot of this had to do with the frenzy of moving Soviet industry further East in 1941 and then in 1942 and onward was running more efficiently.
>>41459842This. Tiny Germany vs four world spanning empires with unlimited manpower, and tiny Germany almost won with allies like Italy and resource starved Japan.>>41459834>while in 1944 it was most feared land army in the world.Meanwhile, in the real world:>"We promised the Europeans freedom. It would be worse than dishonorable not to see that they have it. This might mean war with the Russians, but what of it? They have no air force, and their gasoline and ammunition supplies are low. I've seen their miserable supply trains; mostly wagons drawn by beaten up old horses or oxen. I'll say this; the Third Army alone and with damned few casualties, could lick what is left of the Russians in six weeks." - General Patton
>>41463016Is that quote from a book? Can I have salsa? Looks good
>>41463016They killed him to save the Soviet Union.
>>41463016“Fixed fortifications are monuments to man’s stupidity”Another quote from the man whose whole army was delayed by the fortifications of Metz, so yeah im not gonna judge the russian readyness by a quote from Patton
>>41463016>Tiny GermanyWith its staggering coal reserves, sizable industry, and one of the largest populations in Europe
>>41463016I think Patton's assessment may be wrong. The Red Army was motorized much more than the German Army. The Soviets supply lines were intact. War between the Western Allies and the Soviets would not have been a quick affair even in 1946.
>>41463371The Soviet Union was suffering a massive famine in '46
>>41461322Pretty much this.Stalin trusted the generals more and Hitler trusted the generals less.Hitler's refusal to allow retreats and consolidation was retarded, especially when the Russians did it to strategic success for thousands of miles.
>>41462978>lot of this had to do with the frenzy of moving Soviet industry further East in 1941 and then in 1942 and onward was running more efficientlySoviet leadership counted on going all the way to the Urals if necessary, and still winning.
>>41463371>The Soviets supply lines were intact.Now imagine if a strategic bombing effort and lend lease was cut off. Those supply lines critical for deep battle would be gone.
>>41459737Germans fucked up in stalingrad that's all
>>41463806I disagree with this entirely.>Stalin trusted the generals more and Hitler trusted the generals less.From 1940-1942, during the German invasion, the Russians had many military purges. Most notably, in mid-1941, the soviets arrested many military generals and commanders, which practically incapacitated the Soviet air force. Later in the year, the Soviets had 300 commanders executed during the Battle of Moscow. In early 1942, they went through another purge, killing 46 military leaders, 17 of which were generals.I mean, Hitler didn't trust his generals, but neither did Stalin. This is why there was a politruk in every unit, company, or division. Hell, the very reason that the Soviet tactics were simply "push until we reach Berlin", was because Stalin trusted his political officers more then his generals.>Hitler's refusal to allow retreats and consolidation was retarded, especially when the Russians did it to strategic success for thousands of miles.What do you mean? The Soviets were pushed back to Moscow, they didn't retreat. I mean, retreat wasn't even allowed. Stalin signed Order No. 227, which was known as the "No step back policy". Any person or battalion who tried to retreat would be shot. This order was the reason that the Soviet casualties in WW2 were so high. Terrible tactics with no allowance for retreat means an extremely high death toll.
>>41463371All that motorization and supply lines are thanks to the americans don't forget we won the war for Russia
>>41459747If the Germans ran out of steam, then why were Budapest and Vienna such shitshows?
>>41466097During WW2 it was coming from the US but during the Cold War the Soviets were producing their own equivalents to trucks & jeeps and other Eastern Bloc nations had their own versions. Striking Soviet industry with bombers to the same extent as Germany's would have been very difficult once jets started showing up.
>>41459737The Soviets never stop being retarded, hell peak soviet retardation was Chernobyl. The only reason why the Soviet Union survived the Operation Barbarossa of 1941 was because of Zhukov.
>people actually think Nazi Germany could have taken the entirety of the Soviet UnionDon't confuse Soviet incompetence as proof of German competence
>>41459966operation Barbarossa getting delayed meant that winter set in just in time to barely keep Germany out of Russia. Everything was going swimmingly but then everything got fucked after that point
>>41459747Germans would lose regardless
>>41463427>>41463371The Soviet famine lasted from 45-48. If they were at war with a country with atom bombs, it would have been quick. And yes the USSR had a massive shortage of motorized vehicles. Look at what they were even using for their Katyushas: American Studebakers. They were all imports.
>>41467751At best, they would've taken the territory the west of the Ural Mountains and then gotten into a protracted war with the USSR, something they couldn't win. The USSR was already moving key factories over to the east of the Urals in 1941, where they knew the Germans couldn't reach them. With the factories still churning out materiel and still having a ton of raw materials to grab from the territory to the east of the Urals, the USSR would still have a real shot of winning, but it'd be a lot bloodier than what happened. Food would be a bigger problem with European USSR under Nazi control, but they'd think of a way to work around that.The Nazis seemed to have assumed that the USSR would've quickly broken up if pushed to the east of the Urals, but the Nazis enslaving and killing every non-German civilian they could get their hands on would be a strong rallying cry for the USSR to continue fighting instead of shrugging and giving up like the Nazis seem to have expected.
>>41468195>they'd think of a way to work around that.The only solution is to import. If the Japanese had went to war with the USSR earlier, it would have cut off the majority of their lend lease through Vladivostok. That means lots of less boots, food, vehicles, etc. The USSR wouldn't have nearly enough supplies to last. I say they'd break by 44 if that course had been sought.>The Nazis seemed to have assumed that the USSR would've quickly broken up if pushed to the east of the Urals, but the Nazis enslaving and killing every non-German civilian they could get their hands on would be a strong rallying cry for the USSR to continue fighting instead of shrugging and giving up like the Nazis seem to have expected....What? Tens of thousands of Slavs died at Stalingrad alone. Some 80k Cossacks fought for Germany and were given their own SS units. The Baltics also had their own SS units. >Historian Kirill Alexandrov notes that during the great Patriotic war around 80 thousand Cossacks fought for the Germans. In the beginning of 1942 large regiments and divisions were created. Noteworthy, that according to the ideologists of the third Reich, Cossacks were descendants of the Ostrogoths – the German tribe inhabiting the plains of Eastern Europe. And if so, they were considered “true Aryans”.https://www.slavorum.org/interesting-facts-why-didnt-cossacks-of-don-marry-russian-women/https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XV_SS_Cossack_Cavalry_Corpshttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VI_SS_Army_Corps_(Latvian)The opposite probably would have happened had the symbolic points been taken.
>>41459747>>41462998>>41467582>>41467598HAHAHAHAHAHAHA, enjoy that cope wehraboo, Bagration and pretty much all the campaigns afterwards where the Germans got their shit absolutely ruthlessly pushed in were just flukes as well right?
>>41468228>Bagration>486,493 combat personnel, 849,000 total German>1,670,300 Soviet>450,000 casualties German>770,888 casualties SovietIt's a crime that the Soviets did as poorly as they did.
>>41468218>some token SS units from mostly minority ethnic groups>See the Russians were willing to tolerate German occupation!The Germans were so bad toward the Russians that they rallied under the fucking communist government to fight them back, especially in Rural areas which ironically hated the communists most before the German invasion. If it wasn't for their retarded racial policies and outlook the Nazis could've done far better in Eastern Europe, heck many people saw them as liberators initially.The Partisan movement that German oppression helped form exponentially, was massive and controlled a huge amount of territory west of the frontlines. Had the Germans stretched themselves further east the Partisan movements size and ability to inflict damage upon the Germans would have increased greatly, they were already over extended as it was.
>>41468237>Force assaulting heavily entrenched well equipped opponent loses more people>hurr durr they sucked, muh k/D!Ok you're retarded, Bagration is almost universally viewed as a great military success by all academics and military historians and showed great use of deception, encirclement and deep penetration by the Soviets contrary to the "they just zerg rushed dude!" meme.The Germans lost a quarter of their fucking manpower on the Eastern front, army group central was obliterated and army group North and ukaranie were divided from each-other and hundreds of thousands of kilometers of territory was lost in one fell swoop
>>41468268>80,000 Cossacks>Tens of thousands of Balts>Hundreds of thousands of other Slavs>TokenAlright so I guess you're choosing bias then, that much is clear. I'm on another board posting about something related, apparently in Kallistos Ware's "The Orthodox Church" the Germans opened over a thousand churches in Ukraine in just one year. After this invasion, the Soviets legalize religion. The Soviets gained their religious freedom because they were invaded by literal Nazis. Let that soak in. There's a reason Azov Battalion uses their iconography today. Meanwhile, the Soviets issued Order 227 and had to threaten sentence people with crimes to get them to serve in penal battalions and even volunteer soldiers risked getting shot for tactically retreating.
>>41468306With having a 2:1 advantage, those loss ratios should be reversed. There's no excuse for this kind of failure.>>41468319He was objectively right about everything he said, it's obvious you just don't like hearing it.
>>41466042same poster as :>>41468319Order 227 was mostly imposed for scared officers who sounded the retreat without even facing the germans.Stalin's problem was that his whole army was demoralized and scared to fight. Order 227 was mostly a moral order and the common soldier didnt notice it except in propaganda. Blocking detachments were scarce and mostly used on penal batallions. Oh btw every army shot army personnel leaving their posts, not only soviets. Saying that order 227 was a large contributing factor to soviet loses during the WHOLE of world war two shows a lack of understanding of both the order, what it meant in practice and the eastern front as a whole.
>>41468330>Oh btw every army shot army personnel leaving their posts, not only soviets.Very few made blocking detachments and put them right on their own men and banned tactical retreats. Let's investigate the Soviet system more clearly:>The first penal battalion deployed under the new policy was sent to the Stalingrad Front on August 22, 1942, shortly before German troops reached the Volga river. It consisted of 929 disgraced officers convicted under Order No. 227 who had been demoted to the lowest enlisted rank and assigned to the penal battalion. After three days of assaults against the Germans, only 300 remained alive.>The total number of people convicted to penal units from September 1942 to May 1945 was 422,700. Very few of them were known to have survived the war.>Pursuant to Order No. 227, any attempt to retreat without orders, or even a failure to advance was punished by barrier troops ('zagraditel'nye otriady') or "anti-retreat" detachments of the Soviet special organization known as SMERSH (Smert shpionam), Russian for "Death to spies". SMERSH units were used to shoot retreating men serving in penal units should the latter commence a retreat after failing either to advance to secure an objective, or to stop a German attack via counter-attack.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ShtrafbatAlmost half a million men sentenced to crimes in order to fight for their country, with a gun pointed at their back the entire time. Could you imagine failing to stop a German counter attack, limping back wounded to your fellow soldiers, only to be gunned down by a supposed "ally" for this?
>>41468310Nearly all them were Minority Ethnic groups, and the Ukrainians who made one of the largest contingents at over 180,000 personal almost universally defected and actively fought with the Soviets against the Nazis when shit hit the fan. there was a reason a large amount of eastern European units were sent to the Western front, they were often unreliable and had dubious motivation or allegiance to the Nazi's with a few notable exceptions. Barley a case in point to Russian acceptance of German occupation.Heck despite the huge risk and limited if any financial incentive more people volunteered to fight with the Partisans in Russia and Soviet states then fight with the Nazi's.>>41468324>With having a 2:1 advantage, those loss ratios should be reversed. There's no excuse for this kind of failure.Yeah ok you're retarded, enjoy boiling down military campaigns to the K:D and numbers disparity figures you read on wiki
>>41468344' Unconditionally remove from their posts and send to the High Command for court martial those army commanders who have allowed unauthorized troop withdrawals from occupied positions, without the order of the Front command.'This is what the order said. Your sources never backed your claim that order 227 was a reason for high soviet losses or that it was used till the end of the war. Even though it would be dropped officially in 1943 by order 349, Catherine Merridale said the idea of blocking battalions was unofficially dropped in october '42. They sent close to 450 000 to penal battalions that is correct, but not all penal battalions had blocking detachments and they didnt shoot randomly like in a movie like enemy at the gates. Go read a real book about it. Youtube also had a few good vids on order 227.The order as a whole was a succes, I would even go as far to say that if it wasnt for order 227 the Soviet loses would remain as high as in summer 1941 and they would have possible even lost the war.Btw Germans uses kettelhunde units in the battle of moscow, executing deserting soldiers and officers who fled the battle. So i dont really get your stick. The germans even had special strafbatiallons going on suicide missions.Of these batallions some members were even sent to concentration camps. Imagine going all the way to moscow and getting sent to a concentration camp after.
>>41467560You do know that the only reason the soviets had an industry during the cold war was because as they pushed west they actually plundered those country's factories and shipped them back to Russia.
>>41468363>Heck despite the huge risk and limited if any financial incentive more people volunteered to fight with the Partisans in Russia and Soviet states then fight with the Nazi's.That's what we would expect. The fact of hundreds of thousands sided with the Germans is surprising,and puts a pin in the tired old adage about Germans killing anything not specifically born in Germany circa 1910 with perfect ancestry. >Gets triggered at the endI'm just saying,those were not splendorous victories the Soviets were initiating.
>>41468344>Could you imagine failing to stop a German counter attack, limping back wounded to your fellow soldiers, only to be gunned down by a supposed "ally" for this?During Operation Case Blue the russian retreated a lot not wanting to get encircled. Guess what they were not obliterated by based NKVD machinegunnersYeah stuhlin did give orders to form blocking detachments from the NKVD to stop panic mongering.The gommies needed as much men as they can get so why would you think they would just slaughter a division worth of soldier?Mostly the NKVD shot some soldiers publicly in front of the division to scare them, the goal was to get men back to the fight not to obliterate them,It was never "oh vasilly they are retreating bring me my machinegun"
>>41468344And the Germans made a corps size unit from Soviet POW's and formations of elderly people and children to stand in the way of unstoppable Soviet Armour assaults, whats your point?We get it war is horrible and dictatorships do amoral shit when SHTF
>>41468374We're hitting sovietboo levels that shouldn't be possible
>>41468384Can I get sauce on this?
>>41468409Vlasov army and Volksturm I presume
>>41468413>16 years old children>"The new Volkssturm drew inspiration from the old Prussian Landsturm of 1813–1815, that fought in the liberation wars against Napoleon, mainly as guerrilla forces.">Britain did the same thingI'm disappointed and my day is ruined.
>>41468379>The fact of hundreds of thousands sided with the Germans is surprisingThe fact hundreds of thousands of people from ethnic minorities that faced decades of genocide and oppression from the Soviets signed up to fight them given the chance surprises you? Well ok thenThe fact that over half a million people that had endured decades of famines, political and religious persecution put their necks on the line and that of their own neighbors and family to fight the Nazi's on the Soviets behalf is the real surprise and a testament to how disastrous Nazi policy and treatment to Eastern Europeans were.If they had not treated the people like subhumans in Eastern Europe they could have easily built up an army of over 1 million possibly even 2 million Slavs to fight the Soviets instead of the hodge podge and often terribly motivated or reliable group of less then 500,000 eastern Europeans they ended up having to mostly regulate to Partisan hunting and non-frontline duties.>I'm just saying,those were not splendorous victories the Soviets were initiating.Yeah well you're entitled to your own views about THE BIGGEST GERMAN MILITARY DEFEAT IN ITS ENTIRE HISTORY, but yeah sure it was a failure. I mean they only got from the Soviet Union to within striking distance of Berlin in one Offensive move, but no biggie they lost more guys right? Must've been a pyrrhic victory at best contrary to all analysis of the operation
>>41468422Add Hitlerjugend if you wanna go below 16 y/o cuz by the end of the war they actively participated on fighting the invading forces
>>41468422dont forget the 14-18 year olds of the Hitler youth they used or actual retards used by the volkstrum.>Britain did the same thing17 years old was youngest, 16 year olds could be accepted but only with parental consent. Not quite the same thing friendo
>>41468432>60 year old British home guard armed with pikeThis war was on its way to comedy.
>>41468344And Germans had penal Sonderabteilungen and later Strafbataillone, what's your point
>>4146844760 year old posing with pike for propaganda about british resolve vs literal 14,15, 16 year olds and handicapped people being sent to fight and die despite literally 0% chance of changing the inevitable.what a bizarre comparison
>>41468465You're desperate and failing to prove anything that looks like a point.
>>41468505You literally just described what you're doingEvery-time German failure or questionable ethics is pointed out you try and make some desperate claim like>well they actually did surprisingly good at recruiting eastern European's!>b-but the Soviets should've done better given the odds!>The British used child soldiers and old men too! Sending kids on suicide missions against the Russians was a historical concept anyway, its not that bad!You've been proven wrong with facts every time or at the very least been shown to make false equivalencies, yet you still persist like getting in the last word is paramount to some kind of proof that you were right all along. Please just stop, its getting embarrassing at this point. im outta here
>>41468228Was that before or after the help of the West? Was it before or after the russians only had salt to eat and started butchering each other? No matter how Germany sucked, everyone knows that russia sucked 50 times more. The Germans had at least 2 superpowers in their back, but what's russia's excuse?
>>41468549Hudred/s years of stunted and at points straight out backward absolutist monarchy and two decades of commies
>>41468560Emperial Russia is the best version of Russia, everything after that is just Jewish bullshit. At least you acknowledge the fact that the Germans were better in every way, even after they lost, Russia could only take its own land back and merely a third of Germany after an agreement with the allies of course.
>>41459737You should go to /his/ with these sort of questions. /k/ is the best board, but really stumbles as soon as you take even half a pace beyond the topic of weapons specifically.The first post is a typical case of this. Big and biased claims with little words to support them.
>>41468580Nigger, Tsarist Russia was fucking atrocious beyond the grandest historical systematic fuckeries>serfdom up until 19th century>in reality, even after de iure emancipation the status of basically every settled Russian did not change>the centralisation and concentration into urban areas was incredibly non-proportional; urban people and people of the countryside enjoyed, or rather did not, diametrally different life perspectives>whole country was basically unaffected by industrial revolution and relied almost exclusively on foreign import, only a handful of factories were built on Russian soil while everything else stayed in basically medieval times>all of this shit affected good majority, +80-90% of the population, while the nobility and urbanists lived rich life of Anglo, Italian and especially French high cultureEven if Uncle Nicky had even the best of intentions, they were too fucking late. Not condemning the attrocity that gottverdammt bolshevikhs commited upon the RomanovsIn a nutshell; fuck tsarists and fuck commies. One rigid, obsolete shit system into even more rigid, hellish and cruel bullshit. And this absolutely cuntfaggot grinds-my-gears legacy is still in its lingering effect todayRussian folk produced some of the most forward thinking inventors, innovators and talented artists in all of Europe, but they either usually got screwed by the respective system of their time or could not be supported in their innovation by their system while they could and probably would achieve success and productivity anywhere else in the civilized worldGermany, while also Eastern culture and mindset country, was at least bordering with the West and thus was in close touch with progress of Western civilization for near-immediate application of innovation in grand scale, than just in superficial, or narrowly specific way like in Russia
>>41468189>USSR had a massive shortage of motorized vehicles. Look at what they were even using for their Katyushas: American Studebakers.That's a flawed logic. What if they did not build more trucks simply because americans were sending them anyway?
>>41459737NOT A STEP BACK was that pointThe real reason why russians suffered such causalities (mostly civilian) is because Stalin thought that Hitler wasnt utterly retarded to start a war on 2 fronts
>>41463016>Germans almost won.hahahaha hahahahaGermans signed their death warrant the moment they crossed the Soviet border. Barbarossa was built on a fantasy that they could conquer Russia in a matter of months.
>>41468580Russia went from a medieval tier shithole to a world superpower in 30 years. Really gets the noggin joggin.
>>41459747>>41462998>>41466055>>41467582>>41467598C O P E OPEGermans were good tactically, but were pants on head retarded when it came to strategy. By 1943, the Soviets had developed an effective defensive strategy, something which the Germans never managed. By mid 43, the Soviet leadership was more intelligent than the Germans (as evidenced by the retardation that was Kursk).
Do you wehraboo faggots even realise the fact Red Army and Wehrmacht casualties were counted differently? Red Army casualties meant anything from minor wound recovered from in two weeks to death, Wehrmacht only counted grievous injuries to death as a casualty. This doesn't even take into account the fact that Wehrmacht units often exaggerated the number of kills and wounds inflicted that they recorded.
>>41470456Slavaboo: the post
>>41470361>By 1943, the Soviets had developed an effective defensive strategy, something which the Germans never managed.Calling "human wave attacks" a "strategy" is a bit of a stretch.
>>41459747ThisGermany was doomed to fail from the start
>>41469451The best post so far.
>>41468549>No matter how Germany sucked, everyone knows that russia sucked 50 times more.Maybe initially, the Russians became quite formidable by mid-late war which is a fact even acknowledged by the Germans themselves who on the contrary were becoming a husk of their former competence. >The Germans had at least 2 superpowers in their back, but what's russia's excuse?>Hurr durr 2 superpowers vs 1 = twice the odds!!Go back to the wehraboo echo chamber you came from, if you cant acknowledge the Russians achieved any success outside of having the odds overwhelmingly stacked in their favor you obviously have no knowledge of the war on the Eastern front outside of memes. The Russians could barley defeat the Finns before Barbarossa, then in the course of less then 4 years they pushed an alliance of armies dozens of time larger and better equipped all the way from the Ukaraine to Berlin, obviously something changed and no "muh western support" alone can't make up for the level of incompetence in the Soviet army pre-41.>>41468580>Emperial Russia is the best version of Russia>the Germans were better in every way>Russia could only take its own land back and merely a third of GermanyThanks for confirming to everyone you're retarded>>41471032>Calling "human wave attacks" a "strategy" is a bit of a stretch.Just stick to playing company of heroes, watching history channel or whatever trash it is that you base your meme tier opinion off.>>41471023He is right though, I mean the Germans didn;'t even count vehicle losses unless they were absolute total right offs. Panzers might go through 2 or 3 refits/crews before finally been counted as "knocked out in action".
>>41459737>StopStop?They were already and continued to be retarded thoughout the whole fucking war.
>>41470456Most of the info about the eastern front was sourced by the germans that ran like hell to surrender to the west. I would have doubted what they had to say about what they are running from, but would take their word to get published if that thing they were running from became an enemy all of the sudden.
>>41459737When they starting getting constant shipments of US supplies
>>41459966All the did was throw millions of men at the Germans. Not a good strategy unless losing 11 million men is acceptable
>>41463016That quote.No wonder central command told him to basically fuck off time and time again. Dude was so out of touch, that exact thinking and underestimation is what delayed Barbarossa and cost the Germans in the end.
>>41468330>>41468374I'm the first guy you responded to, and am not >>41468374, like I think you believe, although he is right.>Saying that order 227 was a large contributing factor to soviet loses during the WHOLE of world war two shows a lack of understanding of both the order, what it meant in practice and the eastern front as a whole.I agree that the order wasn't a LARGE contributing factor, but a contributing factor nonetheless. The main factor for the Soviet losses were the aforementioned terrible tactics.And while, yes, the amount of people directly killed by the order was small, the issue was the amount of people it indirectly killed. This order set a precedent. This precedent was that any form of retreat would not be tolerated. Once this order was dropped, while common soldiers were not really shot for retreats, officers were still arrested and/or killed for tactical retreats. This made the officers of the Soviet army push their unit in often unwinnable or unreasonable situations (in accordance with the terrible Soviet tactics), often not considering any form of retreat as a reasonable option. This resulted in the Soviet death rate skyrocketing.>Oh btw every army shot army personnel leaving their posts, not only soviets. Yes, armies do shoot soldiers for desertion. However, this was not desertion, this was retreat. Excluding the Soviets, you would be hard pressed to find an army that kills it's soldiers/officers for a tactical retreat.>The order as a whole was a succes, I would even go as far to say that if it wasnt for order 227 the Soviet loses would remain as high as in summer 1941 and they would have possible even lost the war.For Christ's sake, do you honestly believe that assigning potential manpower and resources to shoot their own countrymen is a great allocation of resources? If the Soviets just listened to their fucking generals then the order would have been obsolete and they would have lost significantly less men.
>>41473057Correction: I'm not >>41468344, although you think I am.
>>41459737If they did stop being retarded, they wouldn't have kept being communists.
>>41471783>deep battle totally isn't human wave, guys!>we're just throwing wave after wave of humans at the enemy until a hole in their lines form and then flooding that hole with more men!>totally unique idea copyright 1943 OC do not steal
>>41471783based, redpilled and best post
Daily Reminder: Finland won the Winter War.
>>41459751Imagine being this retarded.
>>41473150Eh, as much as I H A T E communists deciding who "won" the winter war depends entirely on who's side you're on. To the Finns they won because they maintained independence and made a seperate peace with the allies. To the Soviets they won becuase they gained the territory they wanted. However the Soviets expended FAR more blood and treasure than the Finns per square mile gained, meaning if it is to be considered a Soviet victory it's a pyrrhic victory at best.
>>41468310You're running on German memes and a belief that SS worship is a mainstream thing in modern-day Ukraine. As one other poster noted, "volunteer" troops were kept as far away from the Russian front as possible, they were completely non-dependable. Just to name a few examples of how retarded SS-boos and neo-Osttruppen-tards are:>Poland was heavily anti-russian and anti-communist. In spite of that, the planned last line of defense of Poland against the Germans was in a national redoubt around Lwow.>NKVD murdered all Polish military officers in Soviet-occupied Poland. Polish non-communist guerrillas STILL fought alongside Polish communist partisans>When the Brits and French unilaterally decided that Germany can take the Sudetenland, which basically meant taking the whole of Bohemia anyway because lol we have you fortifications nao, and led to the creation of the Slovak fascist state, a major chunk of the Czechoslovak army defected and retreated to Poland before evacuating to the USSR>Vlasov's army sat out most of the war in the rear and later aided the Prague uprising against the WehrmachtNot to mention that the Russians faced basically no such opposition from irregulars as the Germans faced. Also worthy of mentioning, liberated Jews formed volunteer death squads tasked with screening the behind of the advancing Red Army and sniffing out Wehrmacht survivors and other stragglers. Supposedly, it was a lot better to get killed in combat than to survive wounded in a forest and later being found by the JDS
>>41463016Patton was a moron. The Germans made the same silly assumption that the Soviets would keel over and die on their own turf without putting up a fight, it really says something about his grasp on reality when he openly says something so retarded right after watching hordes of Soviets fight to the death against a foreign aggressor.
>>41463055>(((They))) killed him
>>41468580>this is your brain on monarchismhow the fuck can a person be so stupid and still be semi-literate? Do you have an aide that you dictate your posts to?
>>41473400This is what martyrdom does. No really, it is.Imperial Russia collapsed after years of the Tsar being almost openly disobeyed; the reforms introduced by the imperial regime were sound in and of themselves, while noblemen fucked around with the system and abused it to get tax breaks and whatnot, many works of Russian culture anecdotally document the pervasive decay of the interface layer between the central government and the average peasant. The communists killed the Tsar to deprive the White movement of a rallying figure, but they inadvertently created a situation where people can say "the Tsar did nothing wrong" and mean it unironically. If the killing of the royal family didn't happen, people would spit on icons of the martyred Tsar-saint.
>>41466042Order 227 was issued after Moscow. And it meant that the commander who issued the order would have been shot, not the entire unit, because why shoot men who follow orders?The high casualties do result from bad tactics compared to the Germans. But the Soviets proved that good strategy and bad tactics always beats good tactics and bad strategy.
>>41473057I'm sure the order would have been ignored if the retreat was absolutely justified. After all the true intent was to stop officers picking the retreat as their first option.
>>41468344>WikipediaNice article, cherry-picking the worst things from various sources and ignoring the contradictions.Source  has a large number of convicts, 422,770? Sure, let's use it as a reference.Same source  claims that not a single researcher or WWII veteran ever presented any proofs that the SMERSH agents were shooting at retreating men? Source must be unreliable, let's find another one which would say that they did.
>>41463168And no oil.
>>41459737Soviet leadership generally stopped being retarded in December 1991.
>implying a communist can be anything but retarded
>>41473747>the Soviets proved that endless land, population and resources always beats limited land, population and resourcesftfy
>>41474104>endless land>thinking there's anything useful in Siberia apart from a few chinky-eyed hunters>thinking there's anything in Siberia apart from ice and gas>"What's this? historical statistics indicating that Germany commanded more manpower than Russia? Can't burn the books, let's just ignore them!">Muh resources >>What is Romania and Sweden for 200
>>41459737>tfw there will never be a war as kino as the Eastern Front of WW2
>>41471783Quality post, pic related.>>41473119Cringe post.
>>41474569>what is the west siberian plainit's marshy and full of peat, but it's not nothing.
>>41468580If you want to defend monarchy don’t choose Russia LMAO
>>41474038saying it while being an ancap removes all your credibillity
>>41468720Economical models don't agree with you.Tsarist Russia would have steadily outperformed USSR in terms of industrialization, GDP per capita and, likely, urban population percentage at least till 1940es.https://www.nber.org/papers/w19425.pdf>muh oppressed serfsThere's a recorded case when a completely ordinary serf brought the Emperor Nicolai's uncle (I think) into a civil court over a building code violation or something similar and won.Most peasants might have been relatively poor, but their legal status was perfectly fine.
>>41474569>ignoring that the Soviets were the third largest oil producer in the world during ww2> Muh RomaniaSoviet production of oil (1940): 27 million metric tonnesRomanian production of oil (1940): 6 million metric tons>ignoring that German manpower was spread across multiple fronts, and was not fully concentrated in the Soviet Union>"What's this? The Soviets had a population of 170.6 million people, while the Germans had a population of 79.4 million people? The Soviets had more deaths on the eastern front then the Germans had soldiers on the eastern front? Can't suppress the data, let's just distort it!">ignoring the metric fuckton of land in-between Moscow and Siberia, which is easily bigger then Germany>ignoring Siberian coal output>ignoring Siberian iron output>ignoring Siberian gold, manganese, lead, zinc, copper, aluminum, chromium, asbestos, and magnesium output>ignoring basic logic
>>41472347>>41473119>Combined arms, training in night combat/marches, infiltration tactics, strategic level deception, focus on targeting enemy logistics over military units, encirclement and tactical positioning to dislodge entrenched enemy positions instead of head on assault, withholding of reserves in defense for buildup and eventual encirclment of attackers (stalingrad) etc. etc.They just threw everyone they could at the Germans in human wave attacks dude! trust me I've got like 800 hours on CoH2>>41473057I pity you if you genuinely think the Soviets were killing Officers for tactical retreats in any appreciable numbers, Order 227 is the most over-memed shit the Soviets ever did.It was a poorly planned psychological/propaganda move to try and curb the huge desertions the red army suffered in '41 more then anything, and commanders quickly realized it was detrimental to morale to have guns at the back of their men let alone divert much needed men and weapons from the front to form retarded blocking detachments. Its a footnote about the brutality of communist leadership but barley worth discussion in the greater context of the war. As for the penal battalions, the Soviets would and did create essentially sacrificial units from "undesirables" regardless of the order. >>41474854>Most peasants might have been relatively poor, but their legal status was perfectly fine.The Communists weren't much better but you really need to take off the rose tinted glasses when it comes to Tsarist Russia, look at their disastrous handling of WW1 for starters.
>>41462877What are some good ones? I've read blood red snow.
>>41474854This.>>41477382>look at their disastrous handling of WW1 for starters.As compared to the issr,that straight up surrendered a war to the losers, invading the baltics and Poland and getting btfo?
>>41477508>As compared to the issr,that straight up surrendered a war to the losersSigning some peace treaties and stopping the sending of millions more of your people to die in a horrific, titanically unpopular war isn't quite the same as surrendering. Russia as a cohesive military force after the revolution was even more combat ineffective then it was prior, which is really saying something, they couldn't of effectively continued the war even if they wanted to.>invading the baltics and Poland and getting btfo?The Polish lost more people in combat not exactly btfo of the Russians, which didnt matter anyway because as soon as the USSR collected itself from the chaos of famine and civil war it steam rolled Poland at almost negligible losses. As far as I can tell the Soviets didn't lose massive popular support or unfathomable amounts of lives in its post revolution expeditions unlike the Tsar in WW1 anyway so not at all comparable.Is being a Tsaraboo ironically becoming a thing here?
>>41463016Patton was batshit crazy and should be taken with a grain of salt.The fucking guy managed to walk up to an at gun crew, bitch them out becuase>UH TOL ERRYONE THIS KIND OF POSTION BADOnly to then realize he had somehow failed to notice that the crew had knocked out multiple german AFVs from said position and was happily waiting to kill more krauts.Did he revise his doctrine? No. He sulked off like a petulant faggot. He also fucking loved outrunning supply lines. Despite having the best logistics in the world behind him. Because... glory, or some shit.
>>41469502>trucksBecause they didn't have the ability. Why do you think they needed the imports, anon?Russia was quite literally just barely out of feudalism at this point.
>>41477893And yet they had the ability to build over9000 planes and 100500 T-34s. USSR build ~30k T-60/T-70/Su-76 that had a car engine or two (~55k engines overall) - which was the reason of them halting the production of trucks and armored cars. What I'm trying to say is that they could just redirect part of their resources to trucks if they needed them. Just like they could build more locomotives but did not because they were coming from USA anyway. It's not an ability question, it's a priorities question.
>>41459737>all the buttmad drunken fatnik posting in this threadnot even a wehraboo but you actually have to be mentally disabled to think russia wasn't a bad joke during ww2. hell they're still a fucking joke to this day, even china is less pathetic.
>41478030>not even a wehraboo(X)
>>41477830>sending of millions more of your people to die in a horrific, titanically unpopular warAs opposed to other WWI participants, who all loved and thoroughly enjoyed the war?The lack of support was caused not by the war itself, but by internal powers raising shit to topple the current regime.WWI was a meatgrinder on every side, with every country struggling to adapt the new tactics and strategies. It's not like the Russian Empire performed especially bad; on the eastern front, Russia and Central Powers suffered comparable casualties.Peace treaty signed by bolsheviks, meanwhile, was disastrous and humiliating on absolutely every front, increasing internal tensions, losing lands, people, reputation, poisoning relations with other European nations, as well as losing any benefits the country could have gotten after Entente won the war.
>>41459737Leftists are the greatest threat to gun rights
>>41472347Exchange ratio was less than two to one between Axis forces and USSR forces on the Eastern front.The entire reason that the Germans ran out of steam was because they underestimated their enemy; while the USSRs losses seem much higher during the early stages of the eastern front, this was mainly due to the nature of the combat, with large encirclements resulting in a high number of captured soldiers including their support staff.Meanwhile the Germans had considerably lower losses, however their losses were almost entirely from front line combat units; experienced men from the battle of France and Poland who were only replaceable with green men.
>>41478159The left is actually pretty split on gun rights, i doubt anyone in that picture is against working class gun ownership for example, although they might dislike the 2nd specifically since it was pretty obviously designed for 'protection' against the Natives.You are thinking of Liberals probably, they aren't leftists, they are centrists really.
>>41462876Order 227 was one the dumbest ideas that the Soviets had.The one thing that makes invading Russia particularly difficult is that Russia has a shit-ton of land with fuck-all in it, and it's very far between anything important.That means that the Russians can afford to just fall back and establish new defensive lines at will. Just keep falling back again and again to new defensive lines until the enemy will then have to waste tons of men and resources advancing and assaulting these lines over and over. Until the enemy is so weak and spent that you can counterattack and destroy them.You don't have to go to West Point to learn this shit, it's elementary.
>>41478339It didn't forbid retreat though?It was to prevent unauthorized retreat, having your officers ignoring your orders is a great way to end up completely fucked.
>>41478145> It's not like the Russian Empire performed especially bad>The lack of support was caused not by the war itself, but by internal powers raising shit to topple the current regime.No trust me they did do extra extra fucking bad and your other statement is paramount levels of Bullshit that only the Tsar himself could've been delusional enough to believe.Heres a little perspective for you:You know how grueling, hell on earth levels of horrific the war was for the British? The Russians had literally over twice as many people killed in combat in even less time, Thats not even getting into the fact over 3 million of their soldiers were captured. Throw in over 1 million civilian deaths and you have to wonder how much Tsar cock has to be rammed down you throat to come to the conclusion Russia didnt do "especially bad" or that the wars unpopularity was a result of communist conspiring.You're literally a shill for a non-existent empire that was wiped out over 100 years ago, find something better to do with your time.
>>41478370>You know how grueling, hell on earth levels of horrific the war was for the British? The Russians had literally over twice as many people killed in combat in even less time, Thats not even getting into the fact over 3 million of their soldiers were captured.Which says absolutely nothing about the Russian performance.It just that the war on the Eastern front was more intense.Central Powers lost more people on the Eastern front than on the Western one as well.
>>41475120Where are all the French, Czech, Slovak, Hungarian, workers and everything inbetween, statistic-munching simpleton?>>41474718What of value to the war effort was there beyond the Urals apart from Sable hunters?
>>41478370>>41478402Also:>your other statement is paramount levels of Bullshit that only the Tsar himself could've been delusional enough to believeTerms of the peace treaty literally included a point "bolsheviks are obligated to stop their propaganda in Central Power countries and allied states".The German government took measures to ensure that local bolsheviks will not be allowed to repeat what they did in Russia.Because they acknowledged how much effect their anti-war propaganda had, and considered it a significant factor in the decline of Russian Empire military strength.But sure, you know better.
>>41478306One of the only things I think actual commies and /k/ommandos have in common is the belief that people should have a right to bear arms.
>>41478402>the war on the Eastern front was more intenseIt was not. It was simply the case, as always, that Russians are bad at war and have to compensate by shedding more blood.
>>41478481Why did the Central Powers lose more military personnel on Eastern front if it was less intense?
>>41478487Because that's where the Austro-Hungarians were. They were also poor performers during WWI.
>>41463836Now imagine strategic nuclear bombing. USSR would be fucked.
>>41478548Maybe they both were super good at WWI instead.
>>41459751>Stop? They got worse as time went on, experienced commanders died and got replaced with inexperienced and retarded party ideologues.This. Just look at Rokossovsky, he was one of the lucky ones, but Soviets were more than willing to kill qualified people for no reason.
>>41478602> We're invading the Soviet union in order to liberate eastern europeans from the evil communists!>turns Eastern europe into an Irradiated hellscape with hundreds of dirty tac nukes.It's worth remembering as well that until the 50s, the US's ability to hit far into Russia was limited and until ICBMs it was pretty unreliable.
>>41478610Haha, no. They both utterly embarrassed themselves in the war. Austria-Hungary was collapsing under its own weight and had trouble even taking Serbia. Russia... Russia was Russia. Incompetence and petty rivalries among the elites, a lower level of development and generally being worse in every way made them a second-rate combatant. They were so behind on development that at the start of the war, vital radio communication was sent openly, entirely without code or encryption and their artillery could only fire on things they could see, as they had not yet developed procedures for artillery observers.
>>41478642>turns Eastern europe into an Irradiated hellscape with hundreds of dirty tac nukes.You say that like it's a bad thing.
>>41478159Isn't that post two years old at the least? I don't think they have the tenacity to keep a single loose comment relevant with efforts continuing that long.
>>41463016>Tiny Germany vs four world spanning empiresLMAO, literally their own fault, they could do lot of things to avoid this
>>41478339>LandTake a look at economic map of Soviet Union by the period of wwii.Most of the industry was located in the European part. Major food production was situated there as well. The main oil sources were in Azerbaijan and Caucasus, the Siberian oil wasn't discovered. Loss of euro part and uncontrollable retreat would end up in greater disaster with long-term consequences
>>41479075Even without the Asian parts, the Soviet Union had virtually unlimited space to fall back through. They abandoned more ground to the Germans in the first month of Operation Barbarossa than any other country in Europe even had.
>>41459737Ignore the wehrabooshttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOKAIDpOY80Essentially they got rid of the stupid officers who were surrendering en mass and making the same mistakes the white army did. Order 227 was the turning point when the Red Army's morale turned around
>>41479185I did not know this level of vatnik denial was possible.
>>41479212>vatnik denialIf you're saying TIK is a vatnik you're an absolute retard beyond compare and should unironically off yourself
>>41479223>implying I clicked your link
so much polcuck cope lol
>>41479248You probably should because it's a really good video
>>41478306>>41478472Here we go again:Marx was referring to an arming of the workers to overthrow capitalism. That text is not about an individual right to bear arms, nor does it say what would happen to the guns after the revolution.Lenin said the same thing; all the workers should be armed and form a militia: https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1917/apr/20b.htmSo what did Lenin do after the revolution? He confiscated all the arms owned by peasants and imposed draconian gun laws.>The December decree of the CPC of 1918, "On the surrender of weapons", ordered people to surrender any firearms, swords, bayonets and bombs, regardless of the degree of serviceability. The penalty for not doing so was ten years' imprisonment.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_the_Soviet_UnionAgain, I cannot think of a single Marxist or any socialist regime that was pro-gun rights. Back to leftypol trannies.
>>41478306Modern day "liberals" have nothing in common with classical liberals. They are very left wing socially.Hitler loosened gun laws for the masses, while not a single communist nation had lax gun laws.
>>41468228You dont like facts. Keep it to yourself we dont care
>>41468228cope harder retard
>>41478402>Which says absolutely nothing about the Russian performance.All the Axis deaths on the Eastern front COMBINED don't even amount to a mere half of the deaths Russia suffered alone (its even worse if you add their allies). Does that say something about Russian performance you mong?>>41478437>Terms of peace treaty were to stop propaganda and subversion campaigns against the enemyWow you dont fucking say? More Russian soldiers surrendered on their own accord then all the other allied forces combined, over 700,000 Russians civilians died from starvation and disease as a result of the economic and societal strain of the war. Its embarrassing you think Bolshevik influence was needed to make the war unpopular, they were just simply tapping in to the already unpopular sentiment that existed. It was literally so unpopular it fueled one of the biggest revolutions in human history, why the fuck are we even debating this?Go be a Tsaraboo somewhere else, the war was unpopular, the Tsar handled it terribly, Russia got its fucking ass monumentally kicked, FACT, there is nothing more to debate.
>>41459747Not true at all. Once Zhukov took over, the Germans got tactically outmaneuvered. Especially when the Soviet generals predicted where the spearhead in Kursk would be.
>>41481388>All the Axis deaths on the Eastern front COMBINED don't even amount to a mere half of the deaths Russia suffered alone (its even worse if you add their allies).Wrong. On Eastern front, Austria alone lost more than half of the combatants Russia did.>Krivosheeva, G.F. (2001). Rossiia i SSSR v voinakh XX vekaRussian deaths, including approximated numbers of MIA: 2,202,970>Bodart, Gaston: "Erforschung der Menschenverluste Österreich-Ungarns im Weltkriege 1914–1918"Austrian deaths, including approximated numbers of MIA: 1,213,368>Its embarrassing you think Bolshevik influence was needed to make the war unpopularWar is always unpopular. It would not have been nearly as unpopular if not for a significant fraction of saboteurs intentionally fueling anti-war sentiments.If you believe that bolsheviks just so happened to express the will of the people and did nothing to manipulate it, you are either retarded or a c*mmie.
>>41468505no mate you are
>>41477977>And yet they had the ability to build over9000 planes and 100500 T-34s.USSR build ~30k T-60/T-70/Su-76 that had a car engine or two (~55k engines overall) - which was the reason of them halting the production of trucks and armored cars.What I'm trying to say is that they could just redirect part of their resources to trucks if they needed them. Just like they could build more locomotives but did not because they were coming from USA anyway. It's not an ability question, it's a priorities question.And then they can't build enough tanks to sustain a war. I don't think you understand how industrial capacity works.
>>41485464>And then they can't build enough tanks to sustain a war. You don't actually know that though.that's the real issue in contention here.
>>41468379Its not THAT unbelievable that so many Soviets joined the Germans. Life in Germany was great compared to life in the Soviet Union, hence why perhaps they'd fight for a try at it. Lest we forget the Soviets required penal battalions for their troops simply so they would march towards Berlin and not Moscow.
>>41478306>The left is actually pretty split on gun rightsno they aren't
>>41486029>b-ut my prefabricated opinions...
>>41481982>Austrian deaths, including approximated numbers of MIA: 1,213,368That was on ALL fronts, about 60% of that was on the eastern front estimated at between 521,146 and 730,000 dead depending on who you base your sources.>War is always unpopular. No shit sherlock>It would not have been nearly as unpopular if not for a significant fraction of saboteurs intentionally fueling anti-war sentiments.If you believe that bolsheviks just so happened to express the will of the people and did nothing to manipulate it, you are either retarded or a c*mmie.M8 if over 3 fucking million of your soldiers hand themselves over to the enemy instead of continuing to fight maybe the unpopularity of the war you're fighting isn't just a case of disgruntled factory workers spreading "propaganda". Heck with over 9 million casualties, economy in a absolute cluster fuck and famine and disease rife its confusing to me that you think much "propaganda and subversion" was needed, the facts were enough.You've become so obsessed with saving the Tsars image and the performance of Russian in WW1 you're literally just pulling shit from your ass at this point in hope something will stick. Its equally bizarre and retarded you're continuing with these already debunked arguments. Are you arguing for the sake of argument or are you legitimately retarded? >>41480212A good portion of us here aren't big enough cucks to fanboy any form of Dictatorship so unlike you theres nothing for us to cope with, the fact the Nazis got raped on every level and the Soviet union collapsed into a giant trash pile makes me equally happy. Cope harder
>>41479906this is true, commies would believe in gun rights until revolution was over and they would confiscate guns. Lenin wasnt as gun grabby as most though, it was more of a soft gun control following the revolution.
>>41459737Stalin killed most (if not all) of his competent officers, so the Soviets had consistently bad tactics for the whole war. What they had was strength in numbers and brute force. The Axis powers we're running out of supplies, And the Soviets just kept throwing people into the meat grinder. Eventually they won, but at a ludicrous cost of life.
>>41487269>That was on ALL fronts, about 60% of that was on the eastern front estimated at between 521,146 and 730,000 dead depending on who you base your sourcesMy bad, yes. Misread the source.Russian deaths change absurdly from source to source from 511 068 to 5 350 000 so it's hard to say, but I'll concede on this point.>M8 if over 3 fucking million of your soldiers hand themselves over to the enemy instead of continuing to fight maybe the unpopularity of the war you're fighting isn't just a case of disgruntled factory workers spreading "propaganda".Or maybe it's pointless to take the absolute number, and we should check the ratio instead?Russians had 15,500,000 soldiers, 3,300,000 of them surrendered, which gives us about 21%.Austria had 9,000,000 soldiers, 1,800,000 surrendered. Same 20%.Turns out Russians surrendered about as frequently as their opponents did. Where's this exceptional "titanic unpopularity of war"?>You've become so obsessed with saving the Tsars image and the performance of Russian in WW1I don't argue that Tsarist Russia was a pinnacle of effectiveness. It was still pretty shit; however, in it's last 30 years or so it was steadily are rather quickly improving on every front - industrialization, agriculture, literacy, civil rights, urbanization, you name it.Bolsheviks ruined everything; it took twenty years to return to pre-war trends, and in some ways Russia never really recovered after the plight of communism.As for WWI, sure, Russian Empire could have been better at winning the WWI. Soviets, however, lost it.It's weird that you try to claim them to be in the right.
>>41488099>Soviets, however, lost it.Not the other guy, but the wording seems a bit off here. I see what you're trying to say, but to the best of my knowledge Russia didn't really "lose" World War One, rather they were forced to withdraw involuntarily due to their government collapsing.
>>41488151Not involuntarily. The new Soviet government used anti-war tendencies as a way to get support.They were basically saying "the war is shit because common people from different countries should not be fighting each other for the benefits of their oppressors, they should unite and fight their oppressors instead".So after coming into power they had to follow on their promises.And while it was a peace treaty, it was extremely, extremely humiliating and harmful for Russia.The signing of this treaty by Bolsheviks was later outright called a "political crime against the Russian people" even in Western sources.Russian Empire had to forfeit about 26% of their European territory (so basically the part of Russia which is not an uninhabited and undeveloped wasteland).With that territory, former Empire lost about 30% of the population, about 40% of the agrarian production, 73% of the total metallurgy production, 89% if the total coal production, 30+% of all the industrial factories and plants.Even internally in the Bolshevik Party, most people considered this treaty bullshit. The vote for accepting it barely passed, and only after Lenin threatened to resign (which would have effectively disbanded the Party, as he was the key figure holding it together) if they don't accept the terms.
>>41481422Not that hard to predict when you get ULTRA intelligence from the allies about their plans.
>>41488264I see, thanks for the information anon.
>>41479162Read the goddamn order text. It explains why they could not retreat anymore. Total war is not a videogame.
>>41488264>, extremely humiliating and harmful for Russia.Let's not forget that Lenin cancelled that treaty 6 months later when Germany lost WW1. Smart planning - if Germany wins WW1 than it's better to fuck off early, if they lose you just ignore that treaty and start again which is exactly what they did.
>>41488099>Austria had 9,000,000 soldiers, 1,800,000 surrendered. Same 20%.Let's not pretend they were doing ok. Austria was a disaster. They held half a year more on pure luck, their multinational army was falling apart as well.
>>41488649It did not help Soviets with their international relations though.First they weaseled out of their alliances and got out of the war, allowing Central Powers to concentrate their efforts on the other fronts and take advantage of the captured resources.Then they weaseled out of the peace treaty and benefited from Entente efforts when the war ended.Who would trust them after that shit?>>41488671But you can't blame Austrian disaster on Russian Tsar.Both sides had suffered catastrophic casualties, both sides had a high rate of capitulations and desertions. It suggests that there was some common cause which affected everyone on the Eastern front, not that everyone involved just so happened to have their own internal reasons to be unhappy and for Russia it was Tsarism.
>>41487970Imagine wading into this thread without reading any of the responses and sharing this worthless opinion.
>>41487970Congratulations to having found your way to this thread, friend. However, may I suggest to You, to read the thread, perhaps learning something from it in advance of injecting Your own pre-recorded view on the matter? You see, what You have presented us here has been gone through, overturned, and processed numerous times now. And not only within this thread, but uncountable times before! As such, I am I'm afraid Your participation has been an unfortunate waste of space and time for us all, and has awkwardly revealed Your lack of knowledge on our subject at hand and a unwitting disregard for the larger conversation.I hope this does not sour our relationship, I consider us friends despite of this. Mistakes happen to us all, and I assure my intentions are pure and my meaning to strive for the common best of us all.Glad to see You here none the less, and glad to give a hand.
>>41488814>It did not help Soviets with their international relations though.When one of your main aims is taking over the world next week you tend to care less about that shit i guess.
>>41463806Hitler wanted to invade the Caucasus for the oil in 41 but his general thought that the ussr would surrender if they lost their capital so they went for Moscow.
Shameless bumpActually pretty interesting thread, even if it's outside of /his/
>>41488099>Turns out Russians surrendered about as frequently as their opponents did. Where's this exceptional "titanic unpopularity of war"?Yeah guess what Austria Hungary's military effort was so titanically unpopular they LOST and ceased to exist as a nation, so if doing as bad as them is exceptionally fucking bad, this is going in circles now what the fuck are you trying to prove?You said Russia didn't do especially bad in WW1, youve been proven wrong in EVERY response, discussion over, you got proven wrong on an anonymous forum life goes on stop being a broken record.>Bolsheviks ruined everythingYes the war the Tsar initiated that atronomically fucked their economy, saw the deaths of millions of their best men didnt factor into it at all, thanks for the clarification.>Soviets, however, lost it.You do in fact realize Russia and its army was falling apart with or without Soviet leadership right?You do realize the February revolution that proceeded the October revolution and sealed Imperial Russias fate wasn't even communist lead right?You do realize Russia had been getting its ass whopped severely and was with divided leadership was in no state to continue fighting without losing further lives and territory right?You do realize that the Treaty was only in effect for less then 8 months, stopped more Russians pointlessly dying and was declared void less then a year after signing right?You do realize the Average Russian didn't want to lay down his life to take some pressure off France and Brittan who they could give two fucks about right?>It's weird that you try to claim them to be in the right.I hate commies as much as the next guy but wtf do you think they should've done differently in regards to the war? Im genuinely curious.>inb4 just let muh glorious Tsar take care of it>>41488814>It did not help Soviets with their international relations though.The fact they were communist makes that point moot
>>41492301>You said Russia didn't do especially bad in WW1It didn't. It won't become truth just because you keep repeating it again and again.Worse than average? Sure. But not especially bad.Russians lost 60% of their military force. Germans lost 59% of their military force.>Yes the war the Tsar initiated that atronomically fucked their economy, saw the deaths of millions of their best men didnt factor into it at all, thanks for the clarification.Tsar's actions did damage the economy and caused people to die in the World War, true. Then Bolsheviks fucked the economy even more and killed even more people in the Civil War. Then proceeded to make it worse afterwards.Keeping Tsarism would have consistently been a better option by every metric.Not optimal, but far better than Soviets.>Russia and its army was falling apart with or without Soviet leadership right?Sure. But the Axis Powers were on their last breath as well.>February revolution [...] wasn't even communist lead right?Irrelevant? >without losing further lives and territory right?Territory would have been recovered half a year later by your own admission, even less if Axis had to fight on additional front. Deaths are irreversible, but fuck, it's a war, people die here, that's kind of the whole point of the thing.>Treaty was only in effect for less then 8 monthsAnd Russia recovered everything that it lost, no negative consequences whatsoever. *cough* Finland *cough*.Not to mention the reparations and new lands Russia would have received as part of a winning side, and now missed. All these lives and efforts wasted for absolutely no gain.>the Average Russian didn't want to lay down his lifeThere are things we want to do, and then there are the things we have to do.>wtf do you think they should've done differently in regards to the war?They shouldn't have existed. Their actions consistently had only negative consequences ever and made worse everything they touched.
>>41459737Germany had no oil and were making significant tactical blunders. Hitler didn't trust his generals enough. The turning point however was pretty much when the Soviets discovered that the zerg rush was basically unstoppable. That's why they were so feared later on. They would just endlessly toss bodies into fights, which will eventually break enemy lines no matter what. Easy to do when your ruling political ideology has absolutely no regard for the individual. If you need a good analogy, think of the bugs from Starship Troopers.Also, The Russian's regard for wartime industrial quality was much more... lax I'd say. T34s would last hardly a week, but fuck they could churn them out.
>>41468330>>41468374The No Step Back order makes perfect strategic sense. Sure, Russia is huge and they can keep going east practically forever, but that land is useless. Not many people live in Siberia for a reason. There is no food, and there is no oil. If the Red Army kept retreating eastward it would starve and wouldn't have the resources necessary to break out again.Some people just take that order way too literally. The order didn't mean you couldn't retreat a city block to regroup at a better defensive line. All it meant was that you can't keep retreating.
>>41488291The Soviets didnt get ULTRA intelligence.