[a / b / c / d / e / f / g / gif / h / hr / k / m / o / p / r / s / t / u / v / vg / vr / w / wg] [i / ic] [r9k / s4s / vip / qa] [cm / hm / lgbt / y] [3 / aco / adv / an / asp / bant / biz / cgl / ck / co / diy / fa / fit / gd / hc / his / int / jp / lit / mlp / mu / n / news / out / po / pol / qst / sci / soc / sp / tg / toy / trv / tv / vp / wsg / wsr / x] [Settings] [Search] [Home]
Board
Settings Home
/jp/ - Otaku Culture


Thread archived.
You cannot reply anymore.



Another Touhou doujin artist betray ZUN to follow fad shit ;_;
>>
I don't really care.
>>
>>20304140
I will never blame an artist for following the free exposure/money.
>>
>>20304140
Artist decides too do something else every now and then =/= artist abandoned Touhou and left it behind. I dont know why this is such a novel concept too people. You're allowed too enjoy more than one thing.
>>
File: wew.jpg (9 KB, 601x49)
9 KB
9 KB JPG
I don't blame em
>>
Touhou fans are so obnoxious no why even draw more book for them.
>>
>>20304140
I can't wait to see grimdark Fate douijn.
>>
At least it's not Kancolle anymore these days.
>>
>>20304140
AT least the Medjed's are kinda cute!
>>
You didn't believe me years ago but hear me out now /jp/: Touhou is reclining.
>>
>>20304140
Zounose doesn't fucking owe you anything.
>>
all touhou artists should be moved to a remote island where they’re not allowed to even think about anything that isn’t touhou and they’re forced to pump out waifu doujins every day, forgetting any recollection of the outside world
>>
>>20306259
so basically they should be moved to gensokyo
>>
File: zounose_illust_gen7.jpg (100 KB, 510x724)
100 KB
100 KB JPG
>>20304140
What are you saying? Not only did Zounose explicitly say in his twitter and afterword of 境界ダンサーズ that he is releasing his Mugamubiru 5 (implying that he will release a new work as a bonus just like the past 4 issues did), but he also has a bunch more touhou doujins planned.

This guy is a full time artist. Not only does he write touhou doujins but he has published several digital art books, worked as an illustrator on a few gacha games (Oshiro Project), and did promo art for some doujin novels. Releasing illustrations of some other thing that isn't touhou is not unheard of from him, and doesn't mean that Zounose will stop doing touhou doujins.

OP is just some unnecessary doomposting coming from a fake Zounose fan.
>>
File: b6856184fc.jpg (424 KB, 899x1200)
424 KB
424 KB JPG
I really like Zounose arts but his story scare me.
>>
>>20306259
There need to be boobhu reeducation camps
>>
>>20310120
His stories are worth reading because Zounose practices internal continuity. Did you know that the bonus manga of his compilation books are all based on the stories included in the compilation? Man I'm just excited for how MORIYA-SAMA will play out in the bonus manga!
>>
>>20311892

I’m annoyed he’s placed Sanae ascending to godhood somewhere late or outside the timeline (or forgotten, whichever).
>>
2hu is cringe, can't blame him.
>>
>>20311892
Muh continuity doesn't save his stories from being edgy pieces of shit
>>
>>20304140
You do realize every doujin artist can do what they want right? They don’t have to stick to 2hu all the time
>>
Zounose shouldn't be writing Touhou stories anyway.
>>
File: yukari_looking_down_z.jpg (124 KB, 527x349)
124 KB
124 KB JPG
>>20312739
Try again, this time without using vague buzzwords.
>>
Literally hundreds of doujin circles who have done a lot of Touhou doujin books do a book that is not Touhou every year. Anyone who acts like it makes them fad shit is probably fad shit themselves.
>>
>>20304140

Betray is such a fucking stupid word there

Zounose isn't contract bound to write touhou
>>
File: waw.jpg (127 KB, 668x777)
127 KB
127 KB JPG
>>20312739
we can all still enjoy his gag centred comics like Frandog and Momiji Roll
>>
>>20304140
>"This is your brain on doomposting"
>>
File: 17777547_p0.jpg (1.04 MB, 1000x1500)
1.04 MB
1.04 MB JPG
>>20316356
When he takes a second to stop cutting himself, his works can have some really funny moments. His art's great too, I wonder why he feels like he has to make most of his stuff so dark.
>>
>>20304140
It really shows Touhou is reclining hard.
>>
File: Marshmellow Sumireko.png (2.51 MB, 2048x1339)
2.51 MB
2.51 MB PNG
>>20316664
I get not liking what he does but I wouldn't really question why he does it
>>
>>20304736
Dude. It’s spelled “t-o”
>>
What’s the story behind this thread? I can’t figure it out by lurk moaring. Did I miss a 2hu trend????
>>
>>20320405
1) Zounose is a fairly popular Touhou doujin artist that has a reputation for writing stories involving grotesque/shock themes
2) OP shows Zounose is making a doujinshi not about Touhou
3) OP suggests artists that don't always draw Touhou, or eventually stop drawing Touhou, are traitors to the fandom

This is perplexingly not an uncommon opinion to hold. Honestly I'm surprised so many people here are calling out OP because historically /jp/ has been full of people that say stuff like this.
>>
>>20306492
Imagine being a 2hu and seeing someone's comic of you getting fucked.
>>
>>20319157
>pic
W-what's going to happen to Sumi?
>>
>>20320503
Oh I was trying to see the Touhou connection to OP pic too. Thanks man. artists are supposed to have their freedom over what they draw. Maybe Touhou got him where he is today but good for him for trying to make something more personal.
>>
File: 19682854_p0.jpg (804 KB, 840x1200)
804 KB
804 KB JPG
>>20316664
>>20319157

He's an incredibly talented artist and, dare I say it, a talented writer as well. Pretty much every single one of his works left an impact on me, because I was just moved by the subject matters at hand and how he uses them to create a compelling narrative. I think that's why his stories usually focus on dark themes: to make an impact and to stand out.

In general, a story that's lighthearted doesn't leave as much of an impression as a heavy story. Stories that talk about how touhous deal with outliving regular human lifespans are a favorite of mine. tsukumizu's Flan Wants to Die, azmaya's Lost Girl Lost Lady, and zounose's Higan's Camelia all talk about this. Read a doujin with that as a topic and you'll find yourself thinking about it a long time after you've flipped the last page.
Zounose wants to make a mark on your mind so he makes his themes dark.

Also, it seems like he doesn't make illustrations in the style of the pics you and I uploaded anymore.
>>
>>20322758
I get what you’re saying but desu, the immortal outlives loved ones and gets bored of living forever story...isn’t that kinda played out? I remember cringing hard when the brownies brought that up with Twilight Sparkle. I mean, unless your an old man watching all your friends die as you live on, who is that story even for?
>>
File: 15254159_p0.jpg (1.64 MB, 625x2000)
1.64 MB
1.64 MB JPG
>>20322758
>Read a doujin with that as a topic and you'll find yourself thinking about it a long time after you've flipped the last page. Zounose wants to make a mark on your mind so he makes his themes dark.
That's actually a really good point, I hadn't thought about that. Like them or not, it still gets people talking about him a lot more than other artists. Even this thread is an example of that.

I miss his old illustrations too. They had a lot more character to them.
>>
>>20316356
Foolish Tengu Raid too.
>>
>>20322758
yep I agree, I really enjoy Zounose works too, I just don't see reason to argue about taste regardless of if you like eem or not.
I'm definitely more on the light hearted side and my favorite story on that topic is Morino Hon's If I Were to Die Today but the story does a good job leaving an ammount of uneasiness in you as the story progresses.
I should eventually re-read some of his works too, the only thing that came to memory when I thought of Higan's Camelia was Akyuu's feelings about her relationships with Komachi and how she despised the feeling of pity people felt towards her.

>>20320665
she's going to be nibbled by the youkai ladies!

>>20323650
hell yeah, I need me some more good mom Nemuno
>>
>>20322758
Zounose's stories are rarely grimdark for the sake of it. The only one that was lolgrimdark was Canni-can, and even then there are people who think it's a perfectly viable story that could have happened in Gensokyo.

Instead he often explores the results of alien sense of morality and bizarre social structure, but not without love or friendship. Look at Vintage or Kaminare. There is often true friendship between humans and youkai/gods, real fondness, but marred by an absolutely alien sense of propriety and morality. Because curse gods and ultimate predators ultimately don't think like humans, no matter how prettily they coat themselves.

If you have a predator Youkai-like morality, Vintage is a very sweet friendship story about a master acceding to the wishes of her servant, even against the master's very wants. That it involves cannibalism to make a point is but secondary.

If you have a thousand years old curse-goddess mentality, Kaminare is a cute coming of age story about a human accepting her inheritance to rise amongst equals. The little orphan being ritually eaten is certainly sad, but no more than a cute doe being slaughtered for the butcher.

Zounose's stories are quite dark, but never because he wanted people to be grossed out by cannibalism or whatnot. Instead he often has a point. His Marisa is remarkably enticing: she is slowly becoming more alien in thoughts by virtue of starting to become a magician, and sees no particular issues with going past human morality matter-of-factly.
>>
>>20324053
>cannibal fetishism
Is that what this is? I guess I’m not all that surprised. People will think anything is deep if it’s shown as artsy...
>>
File: wolf_tengu_allstars.jpg (798 KB, 1280x1280)
798 KB
798 KB JPG
>>20322825
There are so many stories that pretty much everything has been played out already, especially if it's a theme as general as that one.
As a regular human being, you can relate to this with the fear of losing your loved ones, especially those who are older than you. You know you'll outlive them, and preparing for that moment (or being unprepared for) when you have to live without them is a familiar experience with every one.
Besides, there's no need to be able to completely put yourself in their shoes to appreciate a good story. In reading alison's The Immortal Who Outlived the Universe, I'm pretty sure none of us were immortals who went "yeah that's gonna suck when it happens to me in a billion years". Instead, we sympathized with the loneliness and boredom those girls would have to endure for all eternity, despite knowing it would never happen to us. That panel where they found Sakuya's grave really hit me hard, because I knew how much she meant to their plan.

>>20323863
Yeah. I just wanted to explain why Zounose makes his stories dark, and it's not just for the sake of it.
Speaking of rereading, if any of you have read Happy Birthday Remilia and are confused about what the hell just happened, that's because there is a series of glaring translation errors. I'll dump the images talking about it here. There's this one guy that does the translations for most of Zounose's stuff on voile and he messes up a lot. I'd like to do it myself but I'm busy with schoolwork.

>>20324053
I think you hit the nail on the head here too. Most of his stories are a believable take on human-youkai relationships.
>>
File: err_0.jpg (1.18 MB, 1280x1828)
1.18 MB
1.18 MB JPG
>>
File: err_1.jpg (1.08 MB, 1280x1902)
1.08 MB
1.08 MB JPG
>>20324986
>>
File: err_2.jpg (1.16 MB, 1280x1809)
1.16 MB
1.16 MB JPG
>>20325011
>>
File: err_3.jpg (639 KB, 1280x1260)
639 KB
639 KB JPG
>>20325016
And there you have it. I hope this puts the doujin into a new light. In the ending I think what happened was Sakuya turns back time and somehow steals Remi's ability to see her own future (even though I'm sure Sakuya can't do either of those things), ironically making Remilia truly a master of her own fate, since it's not predetermined anymore.
>>
>>20324976
I do remember feeling lost when reading Happy Birthday Remilia, went back to it and considered the translation you gave and it makes much more sense now.
thanks anon!
>>
File: Mugamubiru_286.jpg (771 KB, 1968x2832)
771 KB
771 KB JPG
>>20324053
I REALLY love his Marisa. She lives exactly how I think an ordinary human girl living among youkai and gods would. When we see her she's always preparing for something, and the latest Marisa manga was an especially nice peek into her busy life. That one was sort of a tease on how he plans to handle the insinuations in AOCF about Marisa's desire to overcome her humanity what with all that talk about "leaping over barriers".

>>20325819
Glad I could help someone out. I was gonna do the latest one but danbooru guys were faster and so far it seems like a good TL.
>>
>>20324053
I agree that his stories explore the weird morality of youkai. But at the same time, it doesn't really do anything with that exploration. None of his stories have any deeper meaning than "youkai being Youkai" and as a result it's hard to care about anything.

Like, I walked away from Kaminare thinking "Wow, Sanae, Kanako, and Suwako deserve to die horribly." I walked away from Vintage thinking "Wow, Remilia deserves to die horribly". And I walked away from his work as a whole thinking "Wow, Gensokyo and everybody in it deserves to die horribly." I don't mind dark stories, but when all you get out of it is "Shit sucks, and it's not going to get better" then I don't think you're a very good writer.
>>
>>20327433
I disagree. Zounose Marisa is a unlikeable bitch that doesn't give a fuck about anybody else. Considering how she is actually a pretty decent hero in canon, despite her many flaws, it's actually pretty disappointing to see her portrayed like that.
>>
File: 20181129_201602.jpg (1.35 MB, 2560x1440)
1.35 MB
1.35 MB JPG
>>20327649
>>20327663
If you only look at Kyoukai Dancers and Kodoku no Mahou that's the image you'll get, but those are both mangas where Marisa is forced into something she didn't want to have to do. Accordingly, she threw her empathy away and got her hands dirty, but I don't doubt that it affected her anyways, considering how she wept at the end of Kodoku no Mahou.

In her other appearances where she has a choice in the matter, like the 1st and 4th bonus manga, she was the hero or one of the heroes that saved the day (even risking her life in the case of Magaboshi). I haven't read the 2nd one but she's on the cover, must have been another heroic moment.
In Babanbabanki she was roped into Banki's problem but instead of making them handle it on their own she agreed to help.
In her other manga Curse of Crimson, Marisa literally went to hell and back just to make Reimu some ofuda.
There's also RAINFALL, where if Marisa hadn't helped we wouldn't be seeing Reimu and Sanae in his doujins anymore.

She definitely "gives a fuck" and has lots of heroic moments, if seemingly reluctant.
>>
>>20322825
>who is that story even for?
For me.
You just don't like his works.
>>
>>20328445
I mean, I guess she has her moments. But she doesn't seem to be particularly cornered with the wellbeing of anybody outside of her circle of friends. All of which are also pretty awful, horrible, people. At the very least, she doesn't seem to have any problem with the mass murder going on in Gensokyo. Which makes it pretty hard to view her as even a remotely good person. Just a bad person who still has some empathy and humanity left.
>>
>>20324986
>okashii zo
Why does Remi talk like a man? Doesn’t she supposedly portray herself as a right proper little girl according to canon sources???
They did this in one of the canon manga too but more with posture. Had her sitting spread legged and hunched over like a dude. This has been a source of disconnect for me with most manga portrayals of her. I don’t think she uses masculine speech in the games iirc
>>
File: image.jpg (129 KB, 640x864)
129 KB
129 KB JPG
>>20330178
Oi neesan yo. Yoru ni, hitori de arukkunayo. Kiken ze
>>
File: img019.jpg (1.88 MB, 2813x4026)
1.88 MB
1.88 MB JPG
>>20330178
That's a distressed internal monologue.

When she talks to someone else, she uses feminine language, like she always does in canon.

Besides, ZUN doesn't really seem like a good character writer. Case in point: is Suzunaan Reimu the same person as Ibarakasen Reimu? The only character I think he writes consistently is Marisa, since right from EoSD ZUN was already teasing her desire to walk the boundary between human and youkai.
>>
File: 2926e109.png (1.77 MB, 1024x768)
1.77 MB
1.77 MB PNG
>>
>>20327619
I mean isn't that Gensokyo beneath the Surface?
>>
>>20341700
Gensokyo beneath the surface is a bad place. But it's also one with plenty of good people, and there is hope that things are going to get better.

It's a world half full, while Zounose's Gensokyo is a world half empty.
>>
>>20343094
>But it's also one with plenty of good people, and there is hope that things are going to get better.
I doubt that.
>>
>>20304140
Touhou is pretty boring, everything has been said and done and the only "new" thing ZUN adds is just another 'overpowered' ability to some character.

>X can destroy the planet
*next week*
>Y can destroy the solar system
*next week*
>Z can destroy the entire galaxy and she has already done it and the world they're living in was created by her as a form of amusement
>>
File: nostalgia_ala_carte_32.jpg (2.57 MB, 2808x4008)
2.57 MB
2.57 MB JPG
>>20343094
>Gensokyo beneath the surface is a bad place. But it's also one with plenty of good people

Which is why in RAINFALL we saw how the youkai helped each other and the humans during times of natural disasters (as alluded to in Forbidden Scrollery). The doujin Canni-can, which is probably his darkest work, depicts a concerted effort by the youkai to fill their bellies while exerting the least suffering on the human population. They have to eat people, but they're being as good as they can about it.

It doesn't even have to be a coordinated effort for the youkai to occasionally help out humans. In Kaze ni mo Narezu, Aya goes out of her way to help out a disfigured girl because she believed that the girl would be shunned in human society.

Those are some depictions of good people (and youkai) in a bad place like Gensokyo in Zounose's works. I think it's wrong to look at his works and think that they are looking at the world as "half-empty", when

I'm left more hopeful than pessimistic after reading a Zounose doujin.

>and there is hope that things are going to get better
The ending and general tone of FS pretty much says that the status quo in Gensokyo is going to remain.
>>
>>20325819
>>20327433

I agree thanks for posting this, anon!
>>
>>20328445

Yeah Rainfall shows that she still cares.
>>
>>20327619

Everyone in Gensokyo does deserve to die horribly anon. Or are you okay with them actively or passively accepting that the Scarlet sisters get to feed on humans that are round up for them? It’s not a Zounose what if story, that’s canon.
>>
>>20328689
I mean the village drove her out when she tried to pursue her dream/passion.
>>
>>20346557
RAINFALL was one of the more positive stories, but it doesn't make up for the countless crimes literally every single character committed in his other works. Meanwhile, most of his stories are about how much Gensokyo sucks, is going to keep on sucking, and how much better the world would be if the entire place was turned into a fucking crater and every Youkai, Human, and God in it was killed. I mean, even the Human Villagers are portrayed as very unsympathetic. The only person that seems even remotely decent, not simply horrible with the occasional nice moments, is Mokou. And i'm 99% that's just because Zounose doesn't feature her that much.

FS was mostly about establishing what the Status quo actually looks like. Obviously, it wasn't going to end with Kosuzu kicking of a Human rebellion. She's a literal nobody, and doesn't give a fuck about other humans anyway. Meanwhile, with the Religious Leaders growing more and more powerful. The sages growing more active again. And outside forces becoming more and more interested in Gensokyo. I do think things are slowly but certainly moving towards some kind of endgame. One that is almost certainly going to end with the sages all dead, and Gensokyo moving towards a new brighter tomorrow. Well, unless ZUN is just some kind of weird neo nazi or wants Touhou to go full grimdark.
>>
>>20346937
I don't think that's fair. The only reason anybody has to die is because of people like Yukari. And the only reason why most of the cast accepts her bullshit is because she would murder them if they did not. I can't blame somebody like Sanae, Keine, Mokou, Marisa, or the Human Village for just trying to carve out a living in-spite of living in a land run by a mass murdering monster.
>>
>>20347832
Didn't they drive her out because both Marisa and the Villagers thought she murdered her mother?
>>
>>20348688
When we see her come to the village again in Kyoukai Dancers, the villagers presumed that she came there for "revenge", which means they may have known about her alleged connection to her mother's death.
The conversation between Patche and Alice makes it really clear that her half-baked curse didn't lead to her mother's death, only that it affected Marisa's psyche.

Whether or not it was Marisa that was driven out or that she drove herself out is an open question.
>>
>>20304140
Where's the betrayal?
>>20304803
Grimdark Fate is just Fate.
>>
>>20310205
Yes, anyone who likes boobhu needs to be reeducated.
>>
>>20348671
Youkai like Remilia and Flan feed on people because of... Yukari?
>>
>>20348637

Without sages to maintain Gensokyo it would stop existing

There will be no endgame because ZUN will never move the status quo forward
>>
>>20356755
Youkai like Remilia and Flandre can feed on people without killing them (Although that is pretty difficult in the case of Flandre), but Yukari still chooses to hand them living Humans instead of just raiding a blood bank.

>>20356839
Gensokyo would do just fine without the sages. At least, if people take over their former position. Also, ZUN is not that averse to changing the status quo. While it might still be far, FAR away, I do think he does have some kind of eventually end point for Touhou.
>>
>>20356839
Its more of there will be no endgame because ZUN clearly has none in mind and probably has never thought about it. Especially when you read his interviews its very clear that he's still just making it up as he goes. Plus, it would be fundamentally bad idea for Touhou too have an "end" as that would greatly impact the future of fanworks. The whole point of ZUN going "wider" rather than "deeper" with the lore is so certain aspects of it can be explored in fanworks instead (Zounose is a great example of someone who does this).

>>20358434
I truly doubt he has an ending in mind or even ever considered it. The man plans too just keeping working Touhou until he dies and has made it clear he still just coming up with things has he goes. The idea of an ending doesn't really fit Touhou. Its more about its characters and world, and the smaller stories that take place in it. We will inevitably see endings too some works like FS but if ZUN ever wraps anything up it will be the smaller stories that Touhou is based around and not some big climatic all encompassing ending.
>>
>>20358463
I agree that his main plan is to just keep working on Touhou. But I don't doubt that he intends to end it whenever he's going to retire/becomes too old to continue making more. Until that point, things are going to keep widening. But that's only to make the eventual ending all the more spectacular.
>>
File: 1521963927892.png (143 KB, 374x392)
143 KB
143 KB PNG
>>20304140
>fate
>fad
>>
>>20316455
Who are you quoting?
>>
>>20358610
If ZUN were to end Touhou, I doubt he'd do so by killing the sages or drastically changing the entire structure of Gensokyo, probably something on a smaller scale like Reimu getting a new successor.
>>
>>20359951
I doubt he would have build up the sages are irredeemably evil monsters that deserve to die if he wasn't going to, you know, kill them. Also, Reimu getting a successor would be a massive change considering the Hakurei Shrine Maidens are some of the most powerful people in all of Gensokyo. An actually decent person getting the job would make a massive difference. Hell, even a different filthy traitor like Kosuzu getting the job would make a huge difference.
>>
>>20359483
I mean. It's been consistently popular since the visual novel came out. And that was more than a decade ago.
>>
>>20360310
I don't want to go through that path so I'm just gonna say that don't let your interpretation of Gensokyo get over your head.
>>
>>20359951
>like Reimu getting a new successor
I volunteer myself to be her father.
>>
>>20360573
>interpretation of Gensokyo
Again, unless you think ZUN is some kind of weird neo nazi that thinks brainwashing, mass murder, and oppression is okay. Then the sages are pretty obviously supposed to be completely evil.
>>
>>20362648
>Again, unless you think ZUN is some kind of weird neo nazi that thinks brainwashing, mass murder, and oppression is okay.
He is Japanese, and he does deny the Nanking Massacre.
>>
>>20362832
proof please
>>
>>20362648
You seem to have this weird notion that one is forced to project their beliefs into their works, there's no way for a person to add certain elements to his series unless he firmly belives in them or goes out of his way to demonize them and punish them as hard as possible. And again, don't let your interpretation of Gensokyo get over your head, those are bad aspects that happen in Gensokyo but they're far from being the main focus of the series.
>>
>>20363827
Unless you deliberately decide not to, it's pretty hard not to project your believes into your work. There is nothing to imply that ZUN is making such a conscious effort, and accordingly I doubt he made certain characters completely evil if he didn't want them to be, well, evil. Writing doesn't happen by accident.
>>
>>20362832
> and he does deny the Nanking Massacre.
Um... Source?
>>
>>20364517
ZUN wrote that people used to leave babies to their death on the nameless hill and no one got punished or lynched for that, it just happened. Does it means that ZUN endorses people leaving their child to die? Or is he simply trying to add elements of bad to balance the majority of good aspects that happen in Gensokyo?
>>
>>20304140
Fate isn't buying Artists out like Kancolle (not like they need to) so you're being a fucking retard.
>>
>>20365922
The people that abandoned babies on the nameless hill are 1: Incredibly minor characters. 2: Dead.

Like, if ZUN introduced a character that did abandon her child on the nameless hill because she felt like it. Do you think we're supposed to like that person?
>>
>>20366274
Yes
>>
>>20366310
>>20366310
Then, that would mean ZUN is making the conscious effort to portray a literal child murderer as likeable. Something he would only do if he thinks murdering your own children through abandonment is something that is acceptable to do.
>>
>>20367583

No. ZUNs morals really have nothing to do how he writes touhou and what types of actions make sense in the setting of touhou.

Your moral restrictions and standards have nothing to do with how a fictional world should and is written. Inserting your moral standards does not necessarily make fiction good, nor does ignoring moral standards exactly make something bad instantly.
>>
>>20367630
I agree that ZUNs morals have nothing to do with what would make sense in the setting. But how those actions are represented, that is something his morality does affect. You don't go out of your way, because again writing doesn't happen by accident, to make a literal child murderer likeable unless you have some kind of point behind it. There are plenty of characters, both in Touhou and other media, whose actions make perfect sense in the context of the setting and yet are nonetheless still treated as completely morally reprehensible.
>>
>>20368132
>and yet are nonetheless still treated as completely morally reprehensible
this just in, you don't have to explicitly write that a character's actions or motivations are bad in order for the audience to understand they're bad, nor does a lack of righteous consequence imply the author thinks the actions weren't bad; heck you can even write reprehensible behaviour that's rewarded by the setting, and this doesn't imply the author thinks the behaviour is good

writing sure doesn't happen by accident, but believing the motivation of the author must be a certain way just because it's the only way you see it is simply wrong, and many people can see through that while you just seem incapable of it for some reason

like I can agree with a general sense of what you're saying, but you're applying it badly
>>
>>20368641
>heck you can even write reprehensible behaviour that's rewarded by the setting, and this doesn't imply the author thinks the behaviour is good
I get that. But the thing is, i'm not talking about consequences or bad. I'm talking about likeability and portrayal. Simply writing a dystopian setting and having people that work with the system be rewarded doesn't say anything about the Author's viewpoint. But portraying such a person as noble, heroic, or just does.

>but believing the motivation of the author must be a certain way just because it's the only way you see it is simply wrong
I believe the motivation of the author is a certain way because of how he portrays the characters within it. If you want to argue against that interpretation with your own, then feel free.
>>
>>20358434
>Youkai like Remilia and Flandre can feed on people without killing them
While there is no definitive evidence on whether or not they do kill their victims (more likely case, let's be honest), there are still other youkai that definitely prey on humans. The very fact that Yukari spirits people away into gensokyo is to feed the youkai inhabitants there and sate their hunger for human flesh (confirmed in Ibarakasen).

The kappa talk about harvesting shirikodamas in Suzunaan and Ibarakasen.

Humans in the village are especially wary of any youkai presence because of the life endangering potential it carries.

Lots of game dialogue involves the youkai girls making hints of their nature as people eaters.

Whether you like it or not, touhou is a series filled with man-eaters. If that's your basis on "they deserve to die horribly" then you're getting too hasty.

>>20358463
>The whole point of ZUN going "wider" rather than "deeper" with the lore is so certain aspects of it can be explored in fanworks instead

I've always had this feeling. ZUN rarely ever deepens our understanding of his characters, I think it's because he wants fan works to fill in the gaps and insert what they see fits. This makes sense when you consider his love for the doujin community.

>>20362648
Why are they evil though?
They just wanna put food on the table for all of youkai-kind.
>>
>>20371563
>While there is no definitive evidence on whether or not they do kill their victims
Read Remillia's EoSD profile.

> there are still other youkai that definitely prey on humans.
Yes. But they don't, like, actually NEED to eat human flesh. It's just something they like to eat. If Yukari stopped abducting people, nothing would happen expect that a few Youkai would be somewhat annoyed.

>If that's your basis on "they deserve to die horribly" then you're getting too hasty.
I don't think any Youkai has to die because they desire human meat, it's the fact that they act upon these desires that is a problem.

>Why are they evil though?
Because they brainwash, mass murder, and oppress innocent humans.

>They just wanna put food on the table for all of youkai-kind.
By murdering people when it's not necessary. It's like saying a family of cannibals is "just putting food on the table" when they live right next to a supermarket.
>>
Every fucking Zounose thread.
>>
>>20371870
At least the "Zounose is edgy" fags went away real fast.
>>
>>20304140
Fucking gatchashit.
>>
>>20360322
>>20359483
Might we get a crossover doujin?
>>
>>20372025
Gatcha mobage are the best thing that came from Japen after Casio calculators.
>>
>>20304140
Zounose doesn't own you anything
>>
>>20370359
>I believe the motivation of the author is a certain way because of how he portrays the characters within it. If you want to argue against that interpretation with your own, then feel free.
I shouldn't even have to, because this really doesn't follow. An author's motivations can and will influence how they portray a character, but a character having a certain portrayal does not imply that the author has such a motivation. If you choose to believe a character is portrayed in some way because it's a reflection of the author's beliefs and not for some other reason, it's up to you to justify that; typically people only say stuff like this when the author already has indicated their beliefs in some way. Unless the thing is question is really obviously some kind of commentary like what ZUN does with some works like CoLA and AFiEU. You're backwards.

>But portraying such a person as noble, heroic, or just does.
You say this, but I don't believe at all that Touhou portrays any of the characters you call evil as noble or heroic. Perhaps "just" in some senses, but only because the framework of what "just" means in the setting differs somewhat from what we experience.
>>
>>20376760
>but a character having a certain portrayal does not imply that the author has such a motivation.
If the author includes a scene where the main villain kicks a dog down a staircase, then I can say with 100% certainty that character is supposed to be a villain. Accordingly, when Yukari in her first appearance brags to Sakuya about keeping children in her home for fun, I can say with 100% certainty she is supposed to be a villain.

>You say this, but I don't believe at all that Touhou portrays any of the characters you call evil as noble or heroic.
People like Mokou, Kasen, Keine, and Byakuren are portrayed as flawed, but still noticeably more positive than other characters. While people like Okina, Yukari, Mystia, and Nitori are portrayed as having good qualities, but are still horrible people by every definition.
>>
>>20376955
>Nitori
>You're always tinkering with machines
>both while asleep and awake.
>To think I'd find such a pure soul.
So horrible.
>>
>>20366274
As long as she's cute.
>>
>>20376955
>If the author includes a scene where the main villain kicks a dog down a staircase, then I can say with 100% certainty that character is supposed to be a villain. Accordingly, when Yukari in her first appearance brags to Sakuya about keeping children in her home for fun, I can say with 100% certainty she is supposed to be a villain.
Touhou isn't a plot with straight villains or heroes. Nearly everyone is just an entity that exists in a web of interactions. In a traditional plot, a character is portrayed as doing villainous acts because the intent of the author is to mark them as a villain in the audience's expectations and/or to set up that they will be an obstacle for a protagonist to overcome, or a similar kind of thing. Touhou isn't to be read this way because that isn't the aim of the author, and accordingly shady things happening in Gensokyo typically aren't as straightforwardly targeted to elicit those sharp emotional swings, but instead to create various kinds of unease. Trying to imprint that kind of villain-overcoming structure is a failure of comprehension.

>when Yukari in her first appearance brags to Sakuya about keeping children in her home for fun
Except she doesn't, she's talking about people that fall into Gensokyo because she lives on the boundary. Of course it is intended to creep out Sakuya, though. Do you just interpret everything to be the most malicious that you possibly can in order to justify yourself?

>People like Mokou, Kasen, Keine, and Byakuren are portrayed as flawed, but still noticeably more positive than other characters. While people like Okina, Yukari, Mystia, and Nitori are portrayed as having good qualities, but are still horrible people by every definition.
Characters can be *complicated*, whether well-intentioned-but-maligned or malicious-yet-nice or anything else in any shade. The audience should and largely does understand this. If you cannot cope with the fact that Touhou's setting contains things that are supposed to be seen as unsettling from the viewpoint of the reader but are cued as normal, maybe it isn't for you.
>>
>>20377581
Nitori literally walks around with a tool to murder people. Is a two faced liar. And constantly attempts to con and cheat people. She is a bad person, through and through.

>>20378731
I mean, Touhou fans already defend actual child murders just because they are cute.

>>20380685
>Touhou isn't a plot with straight villains or heroes.
I agree that Touhou is not a series with a straightforward evil antagonist/good protagonist dynamic. But there are most certainly villainous characters and heroic characters. That ZUN tries to accomplish that with a more general sense of unease rather than straight up on screen dog kicking doesn't change that.

It doesn't matter if we don't see Yukari murder children or Okina brainwash people. The fact that they 1: Have done it 2: Are going to do it again 3: Have no regret about doing it makes it pretty clear that they are supposed to be evil bad people.

>she's talking about people that fall into Gensokyo because she lives on the boundary
1: Read her profile. It makes it pretty clear that she is responsible for all people that end up in Gensokyo 2: She's still keeping them in their home, with it being all but said that she kills them eventually. 3: She's still trying to use it to creep out Sakuya, for no other reason than because she can.

>Do you just interpret everything to be the most malicious that you possibly can in order to justify yourself?
I don't need to interpret it at its most malicious for it to be completely evil. She's openly bragging about keeping lost children in her home for entertainment. If anything, the fact that i'm assuming she eats them rather than rapes them is a favorable interpretation

.>Characters can be *complicated*, whether well-intentioned-but-maligned or malicious-yet-nice or anything else in any shade.
I agree. And there are characters that do horrible shit for understandable reasons. The people I mentioned are not those characters.
>>
>>20304140
i dont care as long as ke-ta is with us
>>
Zounose should stick to drawing gachashit.
No one would miss him if he left Touhou.
>>
>>20383701
I think you're focusing too strongly on things that are not relevant too the characters roll in the story and world. It doesn't matter what kind of things we find out the characters do in offhand comments they make, what matters is how they are used in the actual story. ZUN has never written Yukari too be a "villain", he has only ever written her too be as enigmatic as possible. I think you need too draw the line between "evil" and "villain". Just because a character does what we would consider an evil act does not make them villains. Good and Evil are not black and white terms that Touhou rolls with. ZUN doesn't really intend for us too actually be disgusted or dislike any characters based on any evil or youkai like things they do. ZUN doesn't intend for us too see characters like Yukari as despicable, only mysterious. Trying too pin any Touhou character as being a straight up "villain" is something that really just doesn't really work. I wouldn't even say we have "villainous characters and heroic characters" seeing as how blurred the line really is. For example: Reimu and Marisa have both done plenty of morally questionable shit and even outright evil things in the past and they're supposed too be our main protagonists. I think ZUN has this a belief that wholly good characters are not interesting and so he rarely ever writes them. Most characters who come off as such are also ones we dont see very often (like Keine). Like I said though "good" and "evil" really aren't how Touhou rolls. Neither is "heroes" and "villains". ZUN having characters do good or bad things does not mean he wants us too strictly interpret them as such. Strict interpretations is not how ZUN writes anyway.
>>
sanny is his good girl, even if she's a bit smug
>>
>>20304140
Lies
>>
File: 20180910_003558.jpg (3.61 MB, 4032x2268)
3.61 MB
3.61 MB JPG
>>20383912
I will.



Delete Post: [File Only] Style:
[Disable Mobile View / Use Desktop Site]

[Enable Mobile View / Use Mobile Site]

All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective parties. Images uploaded are the responsibility of the Poster. Comments are owned by the Poster.