Analyses of skeletons from the Mary Rose are fleshing out the crew’s past, offering further evidence that Tudor England was a bustling scene of ethnic diversity.
>The GuardianGarbage editorializing. One of the major sources they cite only found evidence for <500 individuals of African descent in the 16th-17th centuries. Not quite a melting pot.
Does "African heritage" mean a crewmember was an octaroon from spain?
>>6296471Means he was a slave. During a time of slavery in the British Empire
>>6296331>sailorsDeck hands are hardly sailors. They were most likely indentured servants like even many white deck hands were.
>>6296331Are they seriously trying to say that 18th century Britain, a country that facilitated the slave trade and strongly believed in racial superiority, was a bastion of diversity?
>>6296331>african blacks only>diversitySo is East St Louis diverse?
>>6296717>>6296672It's the tudor era. They try to push the narrative of racial diversity having started in the early modern age to far earlier times in order to "proof racists" that their nations have always been mixed.
>>6296717No they are claiming the tudor period was actually racially diverse, because 99% white British is not 100%.
>>6296331>ship's crew>representative of local populationhow
Dr Miranda Kaufmann, the author of Black Tudors: The Untold Story, said the findings joined existing evidence of racial diversity in Tudor society, with England home to black sailors, craftsmen and court musicians.But, she added, as the Mary Rose sank shortly before English merchants began trading in Morocco, she believes Mary Rose crew with north African heritage – or their relatives – were more likely to have travelled through Spain or Portugal before coming to England.
>>6296672>Tudor Era>Time of Slavery in the British Empire.Fucking pick one. The Tudor era ended in 1603, and the English Empire didn't gain it's firat colony (not counting Ireland) until 1609. The first slave ships didn't arrive there until the 1620s, and at the time, the concept of chattel slavery didn't exist in English law, so they were purchased, 'freed', then made to work off the cost of purchasing and freeing them as indentured servants for a set number of years. A racial heirarchy didn't develop within ondebtured servitude until the 1640s, and the concept of chattel slavery wouldn't exist in English law until the 1660s, by which time everyone alive when the Mary Rose took off was dead.>>6296471Not necessarilly. English Merchants had had a strong presence in much of West Africa (what would eventually become Nigeria & Ghana) for almost as long as the Portugese have, so there were definitely some Black people in England during this time period. DESU the only way this DNA result could possibly be surprising to you is if you get all your English history from butthurt Tommy Robinson supporting stormfags who legitimately believe that Britain was 100% ethnically PUUUUUUUURE right up to the day the Windrush docked.
>>6296331But why are Lefties so being obsessed with blacks
>>6296898its obvious since the roman era the odd merchant from one race would have been elsewhere but the constant 'the world/britain' has always been so diverse!!' just looks silly and desperate. Most Brits would probably have never seen a black person
>>6296331IDC what your spergs have to say but that's a classic negroid skull
>>6298352>Most Brits would probably have never seen a black personTrue, but most Brits would probably have never set sail on any kind of a ship let alone the Mary Rose. Funnily enough history books are rarely written about Harris, the shit-stained farmhand who tilled a field for forty years then dropped dead for no reason, without ever leaving his ~200-man home-town, or learning how to read.If we're going to exclusively focus on history as it was viewed by urban dwellers, rich-bastards, and well-travelled merchants/soldiers/missionaries, then we can't pretend like those areas of life were as ethnically homogenous as the 99% of the country wgere nothing worth documenting ever fucking happened.
>>6296812>Dr Miranda Kaufmann, the author of Black Tudors: The Untold Story, said the findings joined existing evidence of racial diversity in Tudor society, with England home to black sailors, craftsmen and court musicians1. (((Kaufmann)))2. The 'sailors' would probably have been like those mentioned in the OP, North Africans who they describe simply as 'African' in a sly, deceitful attempt at conjuring up images of huge Negroid populations in mediaeval England3. The 'craftsmen' they mention were non-existent, barring perhaps the odd Berber/Moor bringing textiles from Morocco or Tunisia4. The 'court musician' I have heard of before, though I forget his name, and I distinctly recall it being made clear that there was no proof that he even existedIn the Roman period, 'Africa' originally referred to a single strip of land centred around modern Tunisia, and throughout the Dark and Middle Ages 'African' invariably meant 'a person from North Africa'
>>6296717>Tudors>18th centuryI know this board struggles with anything from before 1939, but come on.
>>6300585Don't be dense. This board is on average, massively stupid in regards to things post 1939 as well.
>>6296331I'm not sure why they're bigging this up as some shock revelation. It's been known that the crew of Mary Rose were from continental Europe for decades. One if theories about why it sank in the first place is that the crew didn't understand the orders in English to close the hatches and gun ports befire turning.
>>6296449The Mary Rose museum themselves say exactly the same thing.
>>6300573>deceitful attempt at conjuring up images of huge Negroid populations in mediaeval England>accompanying artists impressions show this not to be the caseCool conspiracy theory though.
>>6300637Great rebuttal with plenty of evidence to prove me wrong.
>>6300650Thank you. It's a welcome change to see somebody concede defeat so graciously, and without the usual childish whining that accompanies post-demolition responses on this site.Have a nice day, Mr McGee
>>6300650>>6300741You are both fags of gigantic proportions.
>>6300751I'm more a cigarillo than a cigarette, Pablo
The Portuguese used east African sailors to find Indian Goa
How much of history is even true at this point? I wonder how many different peoples' agendas went into creating the mosaic of history.
>>6296331Merely seeing the wine aunt and the baboon is enough to tell you that no legitimate science, anthropology or historical research has taken place.
>>6296331why do people like to pretend there were no black people in europe before the modern age?
>>6301953why do people like to pretend there were no white people in sub saharan africa before the modern age?
>>6296331>Melting pot of ethnic diversity >Some nogs on a ship Fuck it, bring back censorship. These companies promote censorship of the little man on social media and blackball alternative media channels, they should start getting a taste of their own medicine.
>>6301953>>6302211Because most people have no understanding of history whatsoever.
>>6296735>They try to push the narrative of racial diversity having started in the early modern age to far earlier times in order to "proof racists" that their nations have always been mixed.
>>6300606>>deceitful attempt at conjuring up images of huge Negroid populations in mediaeval England
>>6303002>OMG Guys out of the hundreds of thousands of European paintings ten have Blacks in them!
>>6303002>Look at all the vibrant diversity! Britain was always a country for Berbers and Nigerians
>>6303026I don't know it's like there was huge demographic expansion in England in the 18th and 19th centuries. While in the pre-modern period a more diverse admixture is to be expected.
>>6303002>Only White Supremacists and neo-Nazis think that Medieval Europe wasn't a rich, multicultural cross-way of the rich tapestry of the global communityhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHhuBZEZESU>>6303031Yes because countries become more racially homogenous as time goes on. That's what my English literature professor taught me.
>>6303065I guess, if the population is expanding yeah, more homogeneity but if they reach a demographic plateau than it will be expected that importing population would be one way out.
>>6303021>If only you knew how bad things really are
>>6303065>medieval Europe>video of 1950's post industrial/post war population boom
>>6303079If you are implying that all the Blacks left or something then I doubt they were a large population to begin with. My guess is that there were basically no Blacks, and of those present, their markedly different appearance caused artists to depict them due to the novelty factor. Of the cherry-picked examples you find of Blacks depicted in European art, their proportion of that art is in all likelihood a great overrepresentation of their actual presence in the relevant country. Pic semi-related
>>6298338In every non specialized debate they always end in the lowest tier of civilizations so the left must feel bad for them, besides they have to enforce their agenda in white countries>>6303009the keyword is "huge"
>>6303002Ican't fathom that individual behind these post can serious in the blatantly stupid posts and not just fat neckbeard baiting for (you)'s to validate his pathetic existence through attention whoring.How fucking retarded one must be to justify a notion that medieval europe was a racial melting pot by posting some low amount of paintings that have some times black person in it, be he some slave to a noble, St Maurice or just a randomly rare black person.Like how can these individuals exists and type on 4channel?
>>6296331So is this a fake screenshot or what?Surely nobody is dumb enough to unironically claim that one ship's worth of Africans means the whole of England was a "melting pot of ethnic diversity"?
>>6303947This is the current most popular mainstream media of absolute state of the western world.https://www.theguardian.com/science/2019/mar/14/mary-rose-crew-might-have-included-sailors-african-heritageWelcome to the brave new modern world, anon. I hope you enjoy your stay and all the progressive sights it's ready to show you, the future is so bright...
>>6303026>>6303021https://youtu.be/jfN60ZlZhpY?t=47here's a nigger in edwardian england
>>6304050>that fight at 4:45 lol
>>6296331Lmao look at that smug nigger.
>>6296331You see this, Brits? Even back then Britain was multicultural, so stop complaining about African immigration! It was good for you back then so it will good for you right now.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bHlaLjL1M4
>>6303926>fat neckbeard>baitingpathetic existence attention >whoring.fucking retarded reeee
>>6304239>that bottom text format.LMAO it makes all sence now, you're an RHWW We Wuz nigger.Learn how to post on 4chan first and then goback to your WeWuzians propaganda, nigger.
>>6303002>>6303009>>6303079>>6304239Go back, nigger >>>realhistoryww
>>6304161If brits didn't follow Thatcher and instead went full communism they might have ended up like China, an ethnostate that camps muslims.
>>6304310Reagan, Thatcher and Catholicucks are the degenerate trinity that put neoliberal capitalism above their own people.Fuck em all.
>>6304285>>6304273>nigger>niggercry more white boi
>>6304301This is unironically correct thoughOnly 2014 anti sjw spergs would be so against this
>>6304420>image of circumcision>man on left is being restrained>/pol/tards still say its just cockwashing>as if having your cock washed by another man isnt gay as hellwhite boys invented faggotry, and mad that they couldnt clean their own dick cheese and shit from their cocks.
>>6301953What percentage of Europe's population in 1600 was black African?
>>6304572Damn, even then civilized society hated the blacks.
>>6304546no way to say as the censi didnt list people by race.but quite a few.whats funny is white people like to think they arent just descended from barbarian migrant invaders>inb4 celts were white
>>6304572DAS RITE!>>6304577>hate the blacks>keep breeding and trading with thempick one.
>>6304577>what is war
>>6304580>but quite a few.If they didn't have a census how do you know this? Can you quantify "quite a few"? England had about 4 million people at the time.
>>6304572>civilized society hated the blacks.i wonder why?
>>6304585>nubian nigger slaves bringing gifts to their Egyptian overlords*smacks lips*So you be sayan.
>>6300573>(((Kaufmann)))HAHAHA EPIK JEWJEWJEWJEWJEWJEWJEWJEWJEWJEW XDDD!!!
>>6304593In ancient medditeranian tan was representitive of a working class males who worked under sun too long.Fair people were represented a beutiful domestic noble class.This pattern is common in pretty much every ancient north equator civilization from europe, middle east, egypt, persia, india, china and even japan.Charcoal people were always represented slaves or non-human demons ;)So you can continue posting nigger fantasy, kaffir nigger.
>>6304623WrongFairness was only appreciated among womenMen were preferred dark
>>6304590>England had about 4 million people at the time.theres no way you could know this either as the defined borders of "Europe" weren't established>If they didn't have a census how do you know this?I don't know this, it's a casual estimate based on research done in 1911." quite a few", would be in my interpretation, enough to be noted, yet not enough to justify political representation. so if I was to say out of 4 million, maybe 30,000 spread out in different regions. the problem arises when you try to define who is "black" /pol/ will insist black= dark skin, then subsaharan africans when its convenient, yet when you ask to define subsaharan africans, they say bantu, when you ask them to define that, they say congoids, and so on. their definition of blacks is anything they can associate their racial paradigm with.going so far as to say civilized eastern africans who are subsaharan are caucasoids. Yet somalians are niggers, despite being in east africa.and when shown metallurgy and civilization on west african, they attriibute it to arabs.its really a no win topic. unless you have a political axe to grind.I just say they were there throughout history, but in no where near the numbers they are now. and thats in no way a justification for unchecked immigration
>>6304645Men were working in open field or battlefield under sun.Women were working mostly domestic house chores.There are some exceptions, but nobility was mostly represented as fair richfags who didn't need to work outside.
>>6304657>theres no way you could know this either as the defined borders of "Europe" weren't establishedJust use modern ones. >I don't know this, it's a casual estimate based on research done in 1911." quite a few", would be in my interpretation, enough to be noted, yet not enough to justify political representation. so if I was to say out of 4 million, maybe 30,000 spread out in different regions. 30k is .0075% of England at the time.
>>6304623>Fair people were represented a beautiful domestic noble class.anyone ever seen historical revsionism this hard?>In ancient medditeranian tan was representitive of a working class males who worked under sun too long.what ever helps you cope better anon
>>6304684>30k is .0075% of England at the time.thats an acceptable estimate in my opinion. seeing as englands history post roma was literally snownigger central
>>6304657>going so far as to say civilized eastern africans who are subsaharan are caucasoids.They are quite literally caucasoids. White or Black isn't a race but an outdated imperial census to diffirintiate slave from master. It only stuck and became prominent in americas.Negroid is a race and it has bunch of subraces like Nilots, Pigmies, Bantus etc.Caucasoid is a race and it has bunch of subraces from diverse europids, taurids, iranids, hemetics, arabids etc."Whites" as a concept more represents europeans than other middle easterners and north africans and even thait is kind of debatable."Blacks" are mostly the just negroids, but there are also cases where mixed populations like that of east africans also take "black" identity due to how close and similar they look, that's also debatable.Also obsessing about what /pol/oid opinion is, is fucking pathetic.
>>6304700>anyone ever seen historical revsionism this hard?It's not revisionism* but actually established fact. It's just your subhuman brain interpretation how sees this as an race issue other that class and work condition.Women in history mostly were domestic and so didn't have much sun as working men, just like nobles.It was artistic convention of ancient art which played on cultural influence.>c-copeStudy actual history than some shitty afro-american revsionism portying themselves as descendant of ancient meso americans, egyptians, chinese, white moors etc.Or well, continue posting bait if that's your sole purpose, we all crave attention in any form sometimes i guess.
>>6304657>/pol/ will insistThis isn't /pol/ but /his/, nigger. Go back there if you're so much insecure to care about what stormnigs think what is white or black.
>>6304752Oh so somalians are civilised caucasiods?
>>6304847>civilisedWouldn't say so, seeing in how much mess their county is.>caucasoidsGenetically and racially they are caucasoids like ethiopians, arabs, berbers, caucasians, europeans etc.But they themselves take african/black identity if it worths anything.
>>6298338Why are storm fags so obessed with them?
>>6302211Who pretends that?
>>6304528>>6304420Ah you know egyptians would use red to represent cushites and black to represent nilotes
>>6304908Cushites weren't nigs but caucasoids just like levantines and berbers, even most egyptians art seperates nubian nilot nigs from cushite egyptians.Note, when i say "caucasoid" i don't mean they were "nordic aryan blonde" shit like stormnigs claim. Original egyptians (before they became cosmopolitan melting pot) were caucasian people who spoke afro-asiatic language which is related to semetic and berber ones.
>>6304899anyone with half a brain, white people were extremely rare in SSA in the past just like black people were extremely rare in Europe
>>6304899>>6305096Whites couldn't easily travel into Subsaharan Africa due to disease.
>>6304752Which is my point. Defining “black” is nearly impossible . And the sub race argument doesn’t work consistently . /pol/ opinions are accepted as facts throughout 4chan . Half of this board is debunking that shit.
>>6304887Without blacks the social hierarchy will shift and place them at the bottom . So they have to constantly put blacks down.
>>6305118That’s dumb anon. People crossed the Sahara all the time there were even cities and villages throughout the desert
>>6305261/pol/ opinions is wast opinion of mainstream normie culture and not just 4chan.Actual scientific(Darwinist) understanding of what human races are, isn't very popular and hated by either racist extremist or egalitarian extremists who deny that race as a concept even exists.This is particularly american problem, but since american culture and influence is spread among rest of the world, the misunderstanding becomes mainstream in other countries.
>>6305308I mean I can argue against Darwin , but I’m glad we have an understanding
>>6305279Ethiopians described themselves as red and nilotes as black
>>6305285Europeans couldn't really travel into inner Subsaharan Africa until treatments were found for malaria. If you are unaware of that then that is you not knowing your history not me being "dumb".
>>6305261The definition doesn't need to work 100% of the time, 98% is plenty enough for the definition to be of use
>>6305486>Europeans couldn't really travel into inner Subsaharan Africa until treatments were found for malariayeah because non-Europeans are somehow immune to malaria, right?
>>6305751SS Africans are literally adapted to malaria bc sickle cell, but develop rickets in Europe>In the United States, vitamin D insufficiency varies dramatically by ethnicity. Among males aged 70 years and older, the prevalence of low serum 25(OH) D levels was 23% for non-Hispanic whites, 45% for Mexican Americans, and 58% for non-Hispanic blacks. Among women, the prevalence was 28.5%, 55%, and 68%, respectively.>People with darker skin produce less vitamin D than those with lighter skin, for the same amount of sunlight.
>>6305751Subsaharan Africans have a higher level of immunity, yes. I'm not sure whether you are trolling for 'yous' quite honestly.
>>6305737>, 98% is plenty enough for the definition to be of useit works maybe 40% of the time and dropping, precisely because of migration and racemixing.thats why the us is 56% already. when 90% barely half a century ago. 19th century demographic classifications like race matter less and less in the face of cross breeding
>>6305486>all of subsaharan is malaria infested so Europeans couldn’t cross the Sahara >Europeans literally skated through the America’s despite yellow fever, malaria, and influenza.
>>6306108>Europeans literally skated through the America’sno
>>6296331Don't even need to read the headline. Just the pic of the smug nigger and the cat lady is enough.
>>6305821This is true, but still most africans aren't resistant because sickle cell allele homozygotes all died until recently.
>>6304700That's just a Black Figure Amphora. Not meant to represent a person's particular color or race.https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black-figure_potteryBlack-figure pottery painting, also known as the black-figure style or black-figure ceramic (Greek, μελανόμορφα, melanomorpha) is one of the styles of painting on antique Greek vases. It was especially common between the 7th and 5th centuries BC, although there are specimens dating as late as the 2nd century BC.
>>6306310it probably knows and doesn't care anonpeople spread disinfo on /his/ all the time now
>>6306310>it’s black figure pottery just a random style with no evidence to support that assumption except people’s interpretation >no way it could be because there were blacks in Ancient Greece
>>6306811native North Americans really held back the tide, for a good century or two senpai
>>6306878bro...they were just too much to rule at the time. 50 men seized roughly 1000km few months.
>>6296331Who the fuck cares about English history only boomers that’s who. Fuck off m8.
>>6296331has anyone pointed out that England and Portugal had close relations at the time and that Portugal had substantial African possessions by the early 16th century? bro was probably a Portuguese sailor.