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Was the Soviet Union as evil as Nazi Germany? Is that just conservative propaganda of the red scare? Was it actually worse? Or...?
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>>6295018
Of course not. Nazi Germany wasn't evil.
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>>6295018
>Was the Soviet Union as evil as Nazi Germany?
They were worse because in their ideals they hated strength and beauty.
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>>6295031
Seems pretty evil to me
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>>6295035
>they hated strength and beauty.
Source?
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>>6295044
The meaning of leftism.
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>>6295061
???
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>>6295044
What?
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>>6295039
>here is a pic to prove my point
If I had a naked picture of your dad, would he be gay?
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>>6295067
What do you mean? They deliberately massacred non combatants how is that not evil?
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Most of the people who died in USSR died due to famine or war, the Nazis just liked killing people.
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>>6295065
>>
worse
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>>6295076
I hear people equate the holocaust and holodomor. Are they comparable?
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>>6295080
>“Athletism is a powerful demnostration of strengh and invincibility of the Soviet nation!”
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>>6295044
Leftists always drag everyone down to the lowest common denominator. That's the only functional way to achieve their precious equality.
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>>6295018
Official /his/ evildom scale/
American empire>british empire>French empire>All reach's>Soviet Union
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>>6295065
>>6295080
This is like saying that just because Stalin had anti-semitic tendencies, leftism isn't inherently a tool to help jews.
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>>6295085
>holodomor
What's that?
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>>6295071
How can they be sure they're non combatants? That's the problem with partisan warfare. They hide among the civilians and strike when no one's looking, and as a consequence the civilians they impersonate get hit by the reprisals.
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>>6295097
He deliberately stacked the NKVD with Jews so that he could use them as a scapegoat during the great purge
He clearly wasn't fond of jews
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>>6295061
>>6295093
>>6295097
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>>6295107
Burden of proof
Otherwise you could say that about anyone and use it to justify murder
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>>6295107
Oh yeah I guess that justifies herding a whole town's men into a building, shooting them in the legs with a machine gun, pouring gasoline on them, and lighting the building on fire.
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>>6295018
They were both authoritarian one party dictatorships where said party controls absolutely everything in the country and dissenters are persecuted.

Nazism simply pissed off other people more due to its proximity to France and England and its more aggressive foreign policy so they became the easy "bad guys" of modern history.
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>>6295095
t. ankie
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>>6295095
>All reach's
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>>6295108
>that thing he never did so he could that other thing he never did
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>>6295018
How do you measure "evil"? By intentions? Then Nazis. By results? Then Nazis.
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>>6295018
"Evil" has much more room for subjectivity than "dangerous". I personally find Nazism more detestable than Communism. I also find that it was more logical to cooperate with Stalin, who generally kept his end of international treaties, than Hitler that started the war on his own, had declared his intention to annex a lot of land in eastern europe and treat his neighbors like fundamentally inferior beings, and had so far broken one treaty after another meaning he could not be trusted at all to keep his deals. I have trouble respecting any "strategist" that argues that western allies would have a better time picking nazis over commies.
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>>6295076
Do you seriously not believe that Stalin and Mao did not deliberately kill people?
>>
>starts world war two
>genocides multiple ethnic peoples
>cult of personality
>betrays political "friends"
>conquers neighboring countries
>(self-described) anti-capitalist, anti-democratic, anti-liberal, anti-semitist
>kills millions
The Soviet Union and Nazi Germany were, for practical purposes, the same fucking shit.
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>>6295067
No, you would.
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>>6295018
one of these organizations built schools, hospitals, brought the metric system deep into Eurasia, stomped out superstitions, created the cheaper half of tech wonders of the mid 20th century, and brought stability and peace to eastern europe we are only starting to see unravel. the other one is nazi germany. sure the soviets where totalitarian, anti liberal, and reinforced by threat of violence but they have nothing on the evil of mass race and ethnic purges of the nazis. reveal yourself as an autistic faggot brownshirt by asking such stupid questions.
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>>6296317
>stability and peace to eastern Europe
Most cynical and disgusting thing to say ever.
>evil of mass race and ethnic purges
Katyn, Holodomor, Kulaks, The great purges.
Why is one kind of mass murder more acceptable than another?
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>>6295093
>leftism is about equality
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>>6295018
because the west backed the one that had less evil on the front end
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>>6295107
What an obvious little incel.
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>>6295111
Burden of proof is on the person making a claim, you claimed the people are innocent civilians, he said that's not certain, you're the one making a claim
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>>6296749
>he says on a niche interest board
What an obvious outsider.
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>>6295018
They were both "evil" in that they carried out massacres and oppressed their people. It isn't a competition though, both were pretty awful if the government decided they didn't like you. The Soviet Union probably has a better image as people can point to positives like the modernisation of Russian industry in certain aspects whereas Nazi Germany has aggressive expansion before falling due partly to incompetence.
also
>PragerU
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>>6296749
>discribes uses of tactics in was i dont like

>u incel drink moar onions

kys faggot
>>
>>6296763

>>6296782

We're both correct. You're a sad little incel and I'm an outsider.
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>>6296474
>>Why is one kind of mass murder more acceptable than another?
>Number of victims (potentially corrected for the size of targeted demographic and for long did the act go on)
>Methods of execution
>Proportion of certain demographics (women, children, elderly) among the victims
>Reasons for murder
>Moral standards for the area and period
>Were the murderers stopped violently or did they stopped on themselves
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>>6296160
>believing western lies
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>>6295109
*sniff*
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>>6296889
>believing commie lies
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>>6295018
yep what they did was exact same thing but in bigger scale
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>>6296317
>stomped out superstitions
They promoted their own brands of pseudoscience. The "stability and peace to eastern europe" was achieved by starving, jailing, shooting, and forcefully displacing potential dissenters (not only confirmed dissenters).

I still detest nazism more, but I can't let whitewashing pass.
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>>6295018
This thread has a gay premise and I don't want to waste a thread to ask this but:
Why did Hitler try to kill all of the Jews? If he thought Jews in positions of power were undermining the German people, why not just silently take out Jewish financiers and publishers and academics, etc. Why the fuck would you waste all that time and resources housing every ghetto nigger in existence? Seems crazy.
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>>6295097
Leftism is a tool to help working people of all nations, not just Jews
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>>6297652
Political ideologies are actually just empty slogans to entice retarded masses of people to support this or that political actor who himself works from a perspective of pure, cold political pragmatism if he has any brains whatsoever.
>>
From someone who lives in a very far left Germanic country that pretends to be democratic but is actually authoritarian. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that without a doubt i'd prefer to live under the German National Socialists rather than the Soviets.
>>
In one country you could be arrested and killed for disagreeing with the government

In the other you can be arrested and killed for disagreeing with the government, but also because you have the wrong genes
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>>6298260
Since Social Democrats are Welfare Capitalists and not left-wing at all, and no such Germanic country exists, a SuccDem such as yourself coming out in favour of Nazis is no surprise in the slightest.
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>>6298490
>only economic issues are considered right and left
>anything right of marxist-leninist is right wing
>no germanic countries exist
no surprise you're an absolute retard
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>>6298466
in one country you're free to leave if you don't like the authoritarian policies. In the other country you're forced to stay.
>i'll choose Nazi Germany
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>>6298612
>only economic issues are considered right and left
Yes. Your view on abolition or preservation of private ownership of the means of production solely decide if you're left or right-wing. Everything else just decides the flavour. Any attempt to combine the two into a "third position" will produce an inherently contradictory false synthesis, that will come apart when challenged.
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>>6298634
crackhead discord tranny: the post
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>>6295018
I wouldn't trust what Amerilards say about communism anyway
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>>6298634
>IT WASN'T REAL COMMUNISM
people like to own things, like their house
inb4 "personal property"
>Is it possible to sell your house for profit, making money through speculation? No, you cannot. That’s capitalist-style unearned income.
>Can you leave your house in your will, so your children start life with a better house than their others simply by virtue of being born from the right womb? No, you can't. That’s not even capitalist, it’s feudal
You don't even "own" your house under "real" communism, you're essentially a squatter. Ideology of the eternal useless neet who wants free shit without putting in any work an aspie can't do
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>>6298260
>but is actually authoritarian
Which one?
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>>6295018
Both were pretty awful totalitarian regimes, but let's be real.
Soviets weren't as fucking evil as nazis. Nazis main intention was quite literally genocide to fuel their racial colonial imperialism, if they "won" the entire eastern europe(except balkans) would be genocided through starvation, forced excruciating slave labour, gassing and massacres. Lebensraum was real and main goal Nazis fought for in the east.
Soviets on other hand, just wanted to to adopt their garbage system and be buffer subjects, they became pretty fucking practical and not over obsessed about their abhorent ideals. They allowed most of eastern europe to have their own national states, with their own commie governments and their own military. You expect Hitler would have done the same to Poland, Czechia, Baltics, Ukraine, Belarus and Russia? Hell no.
Also, seeing how it turned out post 1950's in eastern europe and eventually everything collapsed and people were free once again, it wasn't as fucking bad as return of literal racial serfdom and mass forced starvation...

I can't understand the notion that nazis were in any way less evil than soviets unless your have actuall sympathy for genocidal regime and agree with extermination of jews and east europeans.
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>>6298681
>criticize false prophet muhammed: jail (meanwhile state sponsored television depicts jesus as a tranny)
>criticize mass third world low iq brown welfare leech migration: jail
>dentist says most "child" refugees aren't children, but adults, some over 30: loses job
>have to hide your political opinions if you support a national party or you're likely to lose your job
>start an alternative news website documenting crime statistics (rape, murder, etc) by ethnicity: forced to shut it down otherwise? jail
I can keep going but it should be pretty damn obvious
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>>6295018
It was definitely worse overall, but Nazis probably would have been a little worse had they not immediately bitten off more than they could chew and gotten destroyed
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>>6295085
Holocaust was intentional.
Holodomor was resul of incopetence of abhorent system.
Judge for yourself.
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>>6298836
>be nazi
>wwII plan with soviets to invade poland
>invade poland ahead of time because of massacres of ethnic germans HAPPENING in free city of danzig
>WWII starts
>Have commies and jews in camps already, "hey lets kill them all, it's not like we need free labour to fuel our war effor"
>Be soviet union
>massacre 16-20 million christians just because of their faith
yea i'll go with nazis
>>6298869
The state advocated the destruction of religion, and it officially pronounced religious beliefs to be superstitious and backward.[3][4] The Communist Party destroyed churches, synagogues,[5] and mosques , ridiculed, harassed, incarcerated and executed religious leaders, flooded the schools and media with anti-religious teachings, and it introduced a belief system called "scientific atheism," with its own rituals, promises and proselytizers.[6][7] The total number of Christian victims under the Soviet regime has been estimated to range between 12-20 million.[8][9]
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>>6298836
>I can't understand the notion that nazis were in any way less evil than soviets unless your have actuall sympathy for genocidal regime and agree with extermination of jews and east europeans.
Yes the "Eastern European Romanians, Hungarians, Slovaks, Bulgarians, Croats, Balts, etc would be living in absolute hell if the Nazis won. They would be speaking German and not be allowed to marry an ethnic German...THE HORROS
>"In Nazi Germany, the Aryan certificate (German: Ariernachweis) was a document which certified that a person was a member of the Aryan race. Beginning in April 1933 it was required from all employees and officials in the public sector, including education, according to the Law for the Restoration of the Professional Civil Service. It was also a primary requirement to become a Reich citizen, for those who were of German or related blood (Aryan) and wanted to become Reich citizens after the Nuremberg Laws were passed in 1935. A "Swede or an Englishman, a Frenchman or Czech, a Pole or Italian" was considered to be related, that is, "Aryan."
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>>6298260
>member of in-group says he'd benefit in a society that exalts his in-group at the expense of others

fucking duh
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>>6298882
>>massacre 16-20 million christians just because of their faith
provide me a single proof
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>>6297599
He believed they were a cancer on society. If the Jews weren't removed root and branch, they would inevitably spread and corrupt society once again. The 1000 year reich wasn't just an ideal, he thought he needed to do all the work up front then Germany would coast on his hard work for a millenium.
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>>6298666
I like that stating something as simple and as obviously irrefutable as ‘you aren’t left wing if you aren’t anticapitalist’ flips a switch in the rat brain of the radical centrist, causing a stream of stale memes and incoherent ranting to spew forth in place of any kind of argument.
>>6298634
National Bolshevism is decidedly not left wing, defining right/left as purely economic is incorrect. Internationalism is also required to be left wing.
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>>6299315
Still seems like a lot of hassle. I think disenfranchising them and dispossessing them would have been more prudent. Then again, I'm no fuhrer.
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>>6299324
National Bolshevism is a meme, that could spout whatever policies they want, the reality is that if they ever amounted to anything politically, they would fall apart.

The closest actual "national bolshevism" in power was Romania, and Ceaușescu pushed austerity and got shot.
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>>6298882
>massacres of ethnic germans HAPPENING in free city of danzig
Unsubstantiated garbage.

>massacre 16-20 million christians just because of their faith
Unsubstantiated garbage.

Stop learning history from stormtard infographs, retard.
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>>6295018
evil is just a point of view
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>>6295067
why do you have a naked picture of my dad?
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>>6295039
>*record scratch, freeze frame*
> Yep, that's me. Bet you're wondering how I got in this situation
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How are we quantifying evil?
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>>6299306
>>6299333
google: persecution on christians in soviet union you morons
>unsubstantiated garbage
no that's your ideology
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>>6299303
diversity isn't our strength. Glad you noticed
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>>6298882
>because of massacres of ethnic germans HAPPENING in free city of danzig
Are you retarded or some fat /Pol/kid ?
Provide proof of this fantasy is true
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>>6295018
Neither were evil, they did things that we can say are morally wrong by certain standards but so how every other nation.
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>>6299393
>The estimate of 330 clergy and monastics killed by 1921
>regime arrested and killed dozens of bishops, thousands of the lower clergy and monastics, and multitudes of laity
>Recently released evidence indicates over 8,000 were killed in 1922 during the conflict over church valuables
wow it's fucking nothing, but I'd be glad if 20 million of orthodogs would actually die right now
>>
> Nazis
> Raze Western Civilization to the ground and gamble and lose their own country. Loot countless of European artworks, kill the most Europeans in history
> Communists
> Spread positive values of Western civilization -universal science, scientific medicine, patriotism, culture, music -all over the globe, all while struggle against imperialism, colonialism and fascism, the French revolution reborn
> "Evil"

I am unironically an Occidental Marxist. The cycle of decline Spengler whined about can be stopped and ended with Marxism. Only Marxism can save Western Civilisation.
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>>6295018
The Nazis were leftists.
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>>6299330
he did dispossess the jews down to the last drop by taking even their own physical labor through slave work until their very last breath.
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>>6299544
The Nazis weren't leftist enough then. If they killed Brits, Germans and French in equal proportion to Jewish people, I would actually be celebrating them for stopping imperialism.
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>>6295120
this
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>>6299393
There isn't a single source that supports your claim. All religions were persecuted but soviets never genocided based on religion. But I'm sure you already know this and are just another stormtard liar.
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>>6298954
>Yes the "Eastern European Romanians, Hungarians, Slovaks, Bulgarians, Croats, Balts, etc would be living in absolute hell if the Nazis won. They would be speaking German and not be allowed to marry an ethnic German...THE HORROS
Pure inbred retard, I won't be surprised if an amerimong typed this garbage.
All those nations besides balts you listed were puppet states and not on Lebensraum radar unlike poles, russians, belorussians, ukrainians etc.
The shit you copy pasted was 1935 reform that didn't apply shit in ww2, Nazis quickly changed their mind about poles and deported millions out of their homes while massacring intellectuals, priests etc. All to clean way for Lebensraum.
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>>6299538
marxism can't even save itself you pederast
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>>6296285
this
>>
Why the fuck did nazis think germs were aryan but slavs were not? Both look like goblins
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>>6295039
Now post all the pictures of american gi's posing with piles of dead bodies and naked tortured prisoners
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>>6299332
The Warsaw Pact, in practice, was National Bolshevik.
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>>6298836
>except balkans
Including the Balkans. Hitler only liked our German nobility upper class, like the Tsar Boris III and a set of puppet low-ranking officers like Lukov. We'd have been treated as a colony, with the people I mentioned as the governors.
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>>6295035
>They were worse because in their ideals they hated strength and beauty.
based retard
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>>6299874
>the kids seem frozen by fear even in paintings
powerful
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>>6299538
you're a moron, please dont co opt the term occidental culture for your posionous materialist anti-traditionalist universalist historicist garbage of an ideology
>>
Nazis are only less bad than the soviets because they lost. If they had won they would absolutely massacre tens of millions civilians in Europe for no reason at all than their autistic ideology.

When the soviets killed or starved civilians, they at least had the decency of having a strategic reason for it.
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>>6299537
>>6299580
https://books.google.com/books?id=LBv_K9Q0Z6gC&printsec=frontcover&hl=en&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=%22Estimates%20of%20the%20total%20number%20all%20Christian%20martyrs%20in%20the%20former%20Soviet%20Union%20are%20about%2012%20million%22&f=false

http://icl.nd.edu/assets/84231/the_demographics_of_christian_martyrdom_todd_johnson.pdf

Literally on wikipedia: The state advocated the destruction of religion, and it officially pronounced religious beliefs to be superstitious and backward.[3][4] The Communist Party destroyed churches, synagogues,[5] and mosques , ridiculed, harassed, incarcerated and executed religious leaders, flooded the schools and media with anti-religious teachings, and it introduced a belief system called "scientific atheism," with its own rituals, promises and proselytizers.[6][7] The total number of Christian victims under the Soviet regime has been estimated to range between 12-20 million.[8][9]

/his/ is the biggest joke of a board
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>>6295018
>Propaganda University
I sure do miss that Cold War propaganda!
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>>6299586
>Polish bvutthurt 10000.0
You probably should have not genocided ethnic germans in your country and let them return like Yugoslavia did
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>>6299586
t. Absolute retard
Ukraine has the largest neo nazi population in the fucking world. Know why? They were thankful for Nazi Germany liberating them from the Soviets.
>you idiots don't even know history you just sit here and type nonsense to push your tranny discord commie agenda
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>>6298882
>massacre 16-20 million christians just because of their faith
This didn't happen, there was however an overlap between Christianity and anti-communism
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>>6300049
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians_in_the_Soviet_Union

shut up you useless commie
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>>6300062
The 20 million figure in that is counting everyone that died as a persecuted Christian because they were baptized, there's nothing in any of the sources saying lay Christians were killed for being Christian
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>>6300091
he state advocated the destruction of religion, and it officially pronounced religious beliefs to be superstitious and backward.[3][4] The Communist Party destroyed churches, synagogues,[5] and mosques , ridiculed, harassed, incarcerated and executed religious leaders, flooded the schools and media with anti-religious teachings, and it introduced a belief system called "scientific atheism," with its own rituals, promises and proselytizers.[6][7] The total number of Christian victims under the Soviet regime has been estimated to range between 12-20 million.[8][9]
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>>6295018
>Nazi Germany
>evil
cringe + bluepilled
>>
In practice they were about equal killing off millions of people that inconvenienced them. In aims, the Nazis definitely wanted to kill more removing all the Slavs from Eastern Europe and setting up der Greater German Reich. Not even Stalin wanted to kill every Slav.
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>>6300112
>Nazis wanted to kill every slav
Stop this meme you dumb fucks
>"In Nazi Germany, the Aryan certificate (German: Ariernachweis) was a document which certified that a person was a member of the Aryan race. Beginning in April 1933 it was required from all employees and officials in the public sector, including education, according to the Law for the Restoration of the Professional Civil Service. It was also a primary requirement to become a Reich citizen, for those who were of German or related blood (Aryan) and wanted to become Reich citizens after the Nuremberg Laws were passed in 1935. A "Swede or an Englishman, a Frenchman or Czech, a Pole or Italian" was considered to be related, that is, "Aryan."
>>
>>6300124
nice stormfag propaganda
>>
>>6300102
Like I said, it;s counting every baptized orthodox as a Christian martyr regardless of if they were imprisoned for "anti-revolutionary activity" or robbing a store, the Russian Orthodox Church is about as trustworthy of an establishment as the fucking USSR itself
>>
>>6300124
>didn't want to kill slavs
>killed over 30 million
nice meme nazitard
>>
>>6300044
Ukraine has a large neo-nazi population because the real nazis are all dead and gone and no longer a real threat to Ukraine. During the actual war there was a Ukrainian independence movement against the Nazis.

Ukranians only adopt neo-nazi memes now because they understandably hate Russia for the constant genocides under Stalin and know it pisses off Russia to larp as Nazis.

>>6300124

lmao

>Nazi policies labeled centuries-long residents in German territory who were not ethnic Germans such as Jews (understood in Nazi racial theory as a "Semitic" people of Levantine origins), Romanis (also known as Gypsies, an "Indo-Aryan" people of Indian Subcontinent origins), along with the vast majority of Slavs (mainly ethnic Poles, Serbs, Russians etc.), and most non-Europeans as inferior non-Aryan subhumans (i.e. non-Nordics, under the Nazi appropriation of the term "Aryan") in a racial hierarchy that placed the Herrenvolk ("master race") of the Volksgemeinschaft ("people's community") at the top.[1][2][3][4][5][6][7]

>As for the ridiculous hundred million Slavs, we will mould the best of them as we see fit, and we will isolate the rest of them in their own pig-styes; and anyone who talks about cherishing the local inhabitants and civilising them, goes straight off into a concentration camp![54]

>The feeling that Germans were the Aryan Herrenvolk (Aryan master race) was widely spread among the German public through Nazi propaganda and among Nazi officials throughout the ranks, in particular when Reichskommissariat Ukraine Erich Koch said:

>We are a master race, which must remember that the lowliest German worker is racially and biologically a thousand times more valuable than the population here.—Erich Koch, 5 March 1943

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_policy_of_Nazi_Germany
>>
>>6300137
>>6300156
>>6300158
>Christian persecution records are stormfag propaganda
holy shit you people are stupid
>"Martyrdom situations examined
When we examine a list of martyrs down the ages, as comprehensive as is known today, some startling findings
emerge. Table 1 provides a list of the 10 largest known martyrdom situations ranked by size. Note that over 20
million were martyred in Soviet prison camps and that well over half of the 70 million Christian martyrs were killed
in the twentieth century alone."
>>
>>6296889
>commie
>lies
Pick one and only one.
>>
>>6300159
Yes the nazis believed in a caste system, everyone with a brain fucking knows this. In war, they kill millions (shock) just like america does in the middle east.
>John Connelly
Yea i'd prefer real National Socialist documents, like the one that states> >"In Nazi Germany, the Aryan certificate (German: Ariernachweis) was a document which certified that a person was a member of the Aryan race. Beginning in April 1933 it was required from all employees and officials in the public sector, including education, according to the Law for the Restoration of the Professional Civil Service. It was also a primary requirement to become a Reich citizen, for those who were of German or related blood (Aryan) and wanted to become Reich citizens after the Nuremberg Laws were passed in 1935. A "Swede or an Englishman, a Frenchman or Czech, a Pole or Italian" was considered to be related, that is, "Aryan."


How horrible it must be to speak german and not be allowed to marry a german. It's so much more liberating to live in the EU where you can't criticize migration or call muhammed a pedophile. Sad! Many such cases!

>fuck off with your "table talk" BS
>>
>>6300174
How does any of that excuse planning to kill tens of millions of Slavs?

>This plan was developed during the planning phase for the Wehrmacht (German Armed Forces) invasion and provided for diverting of the Ukrainian food stuffs away from central and northern Russia and redirecting them for the benefit of the invading army and the population in Germany. The plan resulted in the deaths of millions of people.[1] The plan as a means of mass murder was outlined in several documents, including one that became known as Göring's Green Folder, which quoted a number of "20 to 30 million" expected Russian deaths from "military actions and crises of food supply."

>The most reliable figures for the death rate among Soviet prisoners of war in German captivity reveal that 3.3 million died from a total of 5.7 million captured between June 1941 and February 1945, most directly or indirectly as a result of starvation and undernourishment.[19]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunger_Plan


If Stalin was evil because he killed millions of Slavs (which he did btw) then why is it morally righteous for the Nazis to kill even more AND aim to beat his high score?
>>
>>6300169
I had to look up the source, since you decided not to provide it, he never mentions where exactly he got these figures from. Were they from Soviet sources? Extrapolation? A dream?
>>
>>6300219
IT ISN'T EVEN SOURCED AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
>>
>>6300222
Table 1. Top ten martyrdom situations in Christian history ranked by size
Situation Martyrs
1. 1921–50, Christians die in Soviet prison camps 15,000,000
2. 1950–80, Christians die in Soviet prison camps 5,000,000

My god you people are stupid
>>
>>6300229
Where are the numbers coming from though?
>>
>>6300235
https://www.gordonconwell.edu/ockenga/research/documents/TheDemographicsofChristianMartyrdom.pdf

https://books.google.com/books?id=LBv_K9Q0Z6gC&printsec=frontcover&hl=en&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=%22Estimates%20of%20the%20total%20number%20all%20Christian%20martyrs%20in%20the%20former%20Soviet%20Union%20are%20about%2012%20million%22&f=false
>>
>>6300227
>A meeting on 2 May 1941 between the permanent secretaries responsible for logistical planning for the invasion of the Soviet Union, as well as other high-ranking Nazi party functionaries, state officials and military officers, included in its conclusions:

>1.) The war can only be continued if the entire Wehrmacht is fed from Russia in the third year of the war.

>2.) If we take what we need out of the country, there can be no doubt that tens of millions of people will die of starvation.[5]


https://books.google.com/books?id=l20PlJtfk0IC
>>
>>6300243
Yeah, where did the author get the numbers? It's not in his bibliography, it just refers me to worldchristaindatabase.com that doesn't have any sources for its figures either
>>
>>6300248
>not a nazi document
Discarded
>>
>>6300252
Where did the holocaust numbers come from? Besides brutal forced confessions due to torture, there are absolutely none.
>>
>>6300258
It's citing a Nazi document

>Nbg. Doc. 2718–PS, "Aktennotiz über Ergebnis der heutigen Besprechung mit den Staatssekretären über Barbarossa," May 2, 1941, printed in International Military Tribunal, ed., Der Prozess gegen die Hauptkriegsverbrecher vor dem Internationalen Militärgerichtshof, Nürnberg, 14. November 1945–1. Oktober 1946, vol. 31. Sekretariat des Gerichtshofs, Nuremberg 1948, p. 84.
>>
>>6300259
Actually the first 6 million number came from a German witness for the prosecution and not a defendant confessing, but whatever it's still more than "here's some numbers on a table"
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>>6300271
>written in 2012 you fucking imbecile
https://saschasweltsicht.files.wordpress.com/2018/09/hesse-klaus-geschichte-der-udssr-und-der-kpdsu-teil-1-3.pdf

>>6300275
MUHHHH SIX GORILLION
>you people are borderline retarded, nobody besides jews believes the 6 million figure (and jews don't believe it, it's propaganda used to discredit anyone who criticizes jews or israel). NOBODY
>>
>>6300271
google translation of the document

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=https://www.1000dokumente.de/pdf/dok_0227_hun_de.pdf&prev=search
>>
>>6300292
>6 million is a ridiculous figure!
>But 12 gorillion Christians definitely died in the Soviet Union
>>
>>6300292
document date May 2 1941
>>
>>6300296
Yes so many stories about the persecution of christians in the soviet union turn out to be false. Like the 3 i shared, the lampshades, the shrunken head, the soap bars, the "holocaust" rollercosters, etc....
>give me a fucking break you idiot
They won't let the holocaust sites be examined to see if there is even dna evidence of mass "burning" of corpses because of "muhh holy grave site"
>>6300307
prove that image isn't soviets killing nazi's.
>the 1941 is an image
the burden of proof is on you
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>>6300320
>stories
Why do you care about individual "stories", are you immature or just plain imbecile?

>the lampshades
Rumour based on document production of human leather.
>the shrunken head
Confirmed true
>the soap bars
Confirmed true, there is even a surviving specimen.

>They won't let the holocaust sites be examined
They are being examined though.
>>
>>6300356
>Soap bars
https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/.premium-new-israeli-film-debunks-myth-that-nazis-made-soap-from-jews-1.5273113
Jewish source lmfao

>the shrunken head
"One of the heads was later used as evidence of SS atrocities in the Nuremberg trials in 1945-46. We don’t have that head, but we have a crude replica of the one used in the trial. It was later discovered that, although authentic in nature, the shrunken heads were, in fact, not Jewish or Polish, but all the way from the Equatorial jungles of South America. Believe It or Not!"

>lampshades, rumor
WHO WOULD HAVE GUESSED

>They are being examined though.
They aren't, it is forbidden
>>
>>6300356
Can you read German? This isn't even a nazi document but a "witness" citing the claim lol. Where are the heads now?
>this is your evidence
/his/torians for you
>>
>>6300044
Vastlty more ukrainians fought in the red army than they did for nazis, you literal idiot.
>>
>>6300427
>Soviet Ukraine, was one of the constituent republics of the Soviet Union from the Union's inception in 1922 to its breakup in 1991.[6] The republic was governed by the Communist Party of Ukraine as a unitary one-party socialist soviet republic.

WOW IMAGINE THE SHOCK. UKRAINE, A MEMBER OF THE SOVIET UNION HAD PEOPLE FIGHT AGAINST THE NAZI'S
>Certified idiot
You are completely retarded like everyone else in this thread
>>
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>this seething stormtard
I wonder how long it'll be until he spergs out and calls everyone a jew.
>>
>>6300445
this seething stormtard has yet to be proven wrong
>>
>>6295061
>>6295044
that has fuck all to do with USSR culture
>>
>>6300024
Are you actually brain damaged and unable to understand a basic wikipedia article? Nowhere does it state that victims were killed for being christian. Neither were the victims of the mongols or the conquistadors killed for being christian while we're at it.
>>
>>6300446
He (probably you) hasn't proven any of his bullshit claims right yet.
>>
>>6300379
>https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/.premium-new-israeli-film-debunks-myth-that-nazis-made-soap-from-jews-1.5273113
It speaks about industrial production. Industrial production never happened, there was only an experiment in which they noted that the technology isn't economical.

>They aren't, it is forbidden
>https://www.auschwitz.be/images/_bulletin_trimestriel/114_gilead_haimi_mazurek.pdf
The excavations of Chełmno were carried out by Ł. Pawlicka-Nowak on behalf
of the Konin Museum in three phases during the years 1986-1987, 1997-2002 and
2003-2004. The reports published until now describe the finds in both Kulmhof and
Rzuchów forest32. The most important elements unearthed at the Castle in Kulmhof
are the remains of the basement rooms and the corridor through which the naked
Jews were marched to the gas vans. Numerous artefacts were found here, many
of which belong to Jews, such as a fragment of a denture with a Hebrew date that
corresponds to November 29, 1940, curved on it33. Nine pits were excavated in the yard
in front of the Castle and numerous artefacts were recovered, including jewellery34.
Judaica items were also found, for example, pit 4 yielded items such as a knife with
the Hebrew inscription ‘Holy Sabbath’ and the inscription ‘Pesach’ on vodka glasses35.
Also worth noting is a cigarette case lid from pit 2, with an inscription indicating that
the case was a first price awarded to Josef Jakubowski in a motorcycle race in 193636.

>>6300396
>This isn't even a nazi document
What are you basing your claim on?
>>
>>6300449
The sources claim it you mongoloid
>>6300453
everything has been proven correct so far
>>6300454
the soap myth has been debunked over and over, along with the lampshades and the shrunken heads. People that try to push this today are braindead
>not a nazi document
I can fucking read, moron
>>
>>6300442
Lol, it's funny how you get all triggered to make up for your weak narrative. You sound like you're from tumblr.
>>
>>6300471
>triggered
You people are so stupid it's an ego boost just replying to you
>>
>>6300470
>the soap myth has been debunked over and over
Where?
>I can fucking read, moron
Then translate it, moron.
>>
>>6300489
Where?
>how to use the internet 101
Translate it
>Dude literally posted a document that he couldn't read, citing it as proof
/his/torians for you
kankerparasieten
>>
>>6300470
>The sources claim it you mongoloid
No, they don't. In fact the author you refer to makes it explicitly clear that he isn't restricting himself to religious persecution.
>"The definition of 'martyr' is restricted to christians who have actually been put to death, for whatever reason."
>For whatever reason
http://www.gordonconwell.edu/resources/documents/csgc_Christian_martyrs.pdf&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwjuoJWAu4ThAhUqF7kGHepUBVAQFjABegQICBAB&usg=AOvVaw32bxW8HqfBFNfObOXOHuJr

This would be obvious seeing his list if you had even a minimum knowledge of history by the way.
>>
>>6300504
https://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.gordonconwell.edu/resources/documents/csgc_Christian_martyrs.pdf&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwjuoJWAu4ThAhUqF7kGHepUBVAQFjABegQICBAB&usg=AOvVaw32bxW8HqfBFNfObOXOHuJr
>>
>>6300504
go through every single source (they are numbered in case you didn't know) on the wikipedia page of christians persecuted in the soviet union
>you're the one who claimed i couldn't understand a basic wiki article
go ahead
>>
>>6300498
>how to use the internet 101
In 2006 a sample of the soap archived at the International Court of Justice in The Hague was given for analysis to Andrzej Stołyhwo, an expert in the chemistry of fats from the Gdansk University of Technology in Poland. He concluded that some of the fat in the sample tested was of human origin. The sample of soap had previously been used as evidence in the post-World War II Nuremberg trials, but at the time the technology was unavailable to determine whether the soap had been produced from human fat. The human remains used to make the soap were believed to have been brought from Bydgoszcz and Stutthof concentration camp.
Woah, I used the internet and I got this.

>blabla, why should I prove my point?
I'm still waiting for your proof that the document isn't a Nazi one.
>>
>>6300513
Literally none claims a massive genocide of christians for being christian. Which is to be expected because there's no evidence of that. Because it didn't happen.
>>
>>6300520
"It's a general conception that the Nazis manufactured soap," says Michael Berenbaum, who was project manager for the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum [USHMM] before it opened in 1993 and headed the museum’s research institute until 1997. "But those of us working in this area have not used it as an example [of Nazi atrocity] in the last 10 to 15 years. We don't have any evidence that the Nazis actually manufactured soap with human bodies."

When Berenbaum began putting the museum exhibits together, even he believed "it was obviously the case" that the Nazis produced soap from fat. "There was a question as to whether we would use soap in the exhibition," he says. But after a thorough search, he adds, "I didn't find any evidence of it. I found evidence for everything else that ... the Nazis did and worse."

He says the evidence that would prove it conclusively would include shipping bills, physical evidence from a manufacturing plant, or receipts for economic transactions - none of which has been found.

Aaron Breitbart, a senior researcher at the Simon Wiesenthal Center, agreed that the evidence is thin. "The leading scholars of the Holocaust are of the opinion that the Nazis did not make soap," he says. "It was a cruel rumor at the camps."
>>
>>6300520
>>6300567
Andrew Hollinger, a spokesman at the USHMM department of media relations, provided a document written by the museum’s historian that concludes: "Available documentary evidence and eyewitness accounts have been unable to corroborate in a conclusive manner reports that the National Socialists and their collaborators used human fat from their victims in the manufacture of soap." It goes on to say: "rumors that Germans made soap from human remains originated in French propaganda from the First World War."

Breitbart explains why it is that the scholars have to be so careful. "The importance is not to give the Holocaust deniers any opportunity," he says. "The view of the Holocaust revisionists is, if you can prove something is wrong, then everything is wrong. It gives them an opportunity to cast doubt on the general historical veracity of the Holocaust."

The scholars’ view is based in -part on analysis of the small blue-green cakes of soap that Holocaust survivors have presented over the years, claiming that they were made from human fat. Breitbart says the bars are stamped "R.I.F.," for Reich Industry Fat, but in the camps some Jews believed that the I was a J and that the acronym stood for "Jewish Fat." When analyzed, however, the bars turned up no evidence of human DNA.

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/the-soap-myth

Jewish source lmfao
>>
>>6300536
>promote state atheism policies
>christians mass murdered
>NONE OF THEM WERE MURDERED FOR BEING CHRISTIAN

/his/torians in a nutshell folks
>>
>>6300574
They weren't murdered for their Christianity, they were murdered for their political agitation or affiliation
>>
>>6300569
>Sources: Moment Magazine (June 2000)

I'll give you a chance to find out why are you wrong.
>>
>>6300574
I see you've stopped pretending you have any kind of evidence or source for your claim.

>>6300579
That's a stretch, as the number includes episodes like the holodomor whose victims were neither killed for their religion nor for their political stance.
>>
>>6300617
nah i'm back
>Revelations from the Russian Archives: ANTI-RELIGIOUS CAMPAIGNS". Library of Congress. US Government. Retrieved 2 May 2016.
>Soviet Union: Policy toward nationalities and religions in practice". www.country-data.com. May 1989. Retrieved 2014-03-29. Marxism-Leninism has consistently advocated the control, suppression, and, ultimately, the elimination of religious beliefs, except for Judaism, which was actively protected by the bolshevik state.
> Daniel, Wallace L. (Winter 2009). "Father Aleksandr Men and the struggle to recover Russia's heritage". Demokratizatsiya: The Journal of Post-Soviet Democratization. Institute for European, Russian and Eurasian Studies (George Washington University). 17 (1). ISSN 1940-4603. Retrieved 2014-03-29. Continuing to hold to one's beliefs and one's view of the world required the courage to stand outside a system committed to destroying religious values and perspectives.
>Froese, Paul. "'I am an atheist and a Muslim': Islam, communism, and ideological competition." Journal of Church and State 47.3 (2005)
Г. M. Poнкин. Cинaгoги миpa. — M. «Пoмaтyp» 2005
> Paul Froese. Forced Secularization in Soviet Russia: Why an Atheistic Monopoly Failed. Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion, Vol. 43, No. 1 (Mar., 2004), pp. 35-50
>Haskins, Ekaterina V. "Russia's postcommunist past: the Cathedral of Christ the Savior and the reimagining of national identity." History and Memory: Studies in Representation of the Past 21.1 (2009)
>”Estimates of the total number all Christian martyrs in the former Soviet Union are about 12 million.”, James M. Nelson, “Psychology, Religion, and Spirituality”, Springer, 2009, ISBN 0387875727, p. 427
>over 20 million were martyred in Soviet prison camps”, Todd M. Johnson, “Christian Martyrdom: A global demographic assessment“, p. 4
>John Anderson. The Council for Religious Affairs and the Shaping of Soviet Religious Policy.

need to be spoonfed
>>
>>6300592
I'll give you a chance to find out why everything you claim is wrong.
>you literally posted a document you CANNOT EVEN READ as "evidence"
please just stop replying, it's very sad
>>
>>6300036
>no argument
>b-butthurt lmao
Provide proof that noble polish superhumans genocided subhuman krautish filth in Gdansk.
If you can't, this proves poles are noble superhumans and germs are subhuman filth.

Protip.
You fucking can't because you suck a fat one with swastika on it.
>>
>>6300652
I'll give you another try, here's a hint:
>Sources: Moment Magazine (June 2000)
>In 2006 a sample of the soap archived at the International Court of Justice in The Hague was given for analysis to Andrzej Stołyhwo
It should be obvious now.

>you literally posted a document you CANNOT EVEN READ as "evidence"
Judging from the fact you failed to provide the evidence for your claim for so long would suggest it's you who can't read it. We are still waiting for your interpretation, so stop dancing around it and try to argument for a second.
>>
>>6300645
Again, are you actually braindead? You just copypasted wikipedia's sources, none of which claims christians were genocided for being christian.
>>
>>6300659
i actually provided a ton yesterday in a different thread. People called it "nazi propaganda" then when i mentioned how all the "holocaust" evidence/reports were from forced confessions after brutal torture or eventually debunked, the thread died.
>wonder why?

Protip: you have herpes from your rabbi sucking your cock after being circumcised at birth (metzitzah b’peh)
>>
>>6300670
you went through 130+ sources? because anyone not braindead can find 20 within 3 fucking minutes.
No, you just want the last word.
>>
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>>6300645
>Marxism-Leninism has consistently advocated >the control, suppression, and, ultimately, the elimination of religious beliefs, except for Judaism, which was actively protected by the bolshevik state.
Those archives could say USSR discover time travel and have all the raw data to boot and i'd still remain highly skeptical, just like with the CIA or whatever group has dirty secrets.
>>
>>6300617
>holodomor whose victims were neither killed for their religion nor for their political stance
Of course it was political, it annihilated the landholding Kulaks and other landholders in SSR's as a political enemy and opponent of collectivization, it was allowed to occur specifically to reach that goal
>>
>>6300667
the burden is on you to "prove" what you post. I've learned that since I left int and lit and started posting on this board full of idiots
>>
>>6300645
>”Estimates of the total number all Christian martyrs in the former Soviet Union are about 12 million.”, James M. Nelson, “Psychology, Religion, and Spirituality”, Springer, 2009, ISBN 0387875727, p. 427
Yup, that sounds like a publication in which they do demographic estimates and not just cite someone else. Try again.

>over 20 million were martyred in Soviet prison camps”, Todd M. Johnson, “Christian Martyrdom: A global demographic assessment“, p. 4
"Over 20 million in dead in Soviet prison camps" should be enough of a red flag for you not to cite this bullshit.
>>
>>6300044
There are many retards in the world today.
Germany has a larg homo cuck population, this doesn't mean germans in the past were the same.
Ukrainians nationalists at the time fought literally fucking everyone and used nazis for their ambitions just like the nazis did themselves all up untill nazis began to lose and UPA/OUN started a massive insurgency against nazis. They fought for their nationalist and their people, not fucking krauts and their germanic nationalism.

Neo-nazis are braindead alcoholics/druggies, basically lowest caste of society in every country especially the inpowireshed one, simple modern phenominent to act as edgy and extreme as possible. If you consider these people to represent what majority of the nation thinks, you're fucking retarded american.
>>
>>6300686
>what is a gulag: the post
/his/torians for you
>>
>>6300671
>post no proof or evidence because he knows there isn't any
>"JOOOOOOOZ!!!!111"
thanks for proving my point, nazi larping filth.
>>
>>6300674
>because anyone not braindead can find 20 within 3 fucking minutes.
Great, then post any fucking source that claims what you do with some kind of evidence. I've been waiting for half the thread.

While we're at it the source claiming that:
>Soviet Union: Policy toward nationalities and religions in practice". www.country-data.com. May 1989. Retrieved 2014-03-29. Marxism-Leninism has consistently advocated the control, suppression, and, ultimately, the elimination of religious beliefs, except for Judaism, which was actively protected by the bolshevik state.
says the opposite if you follow the link:
>Although Lenin found anti-Semitism abhorrent, the regime was hostile toward Judaism from the beginning. In 1919 Soviet authorities abolished Jewish community councils, which were traditionally responsible for maintaining synagogues. They created a special Jewish section of the party, whose tasks included propaganda against Jewish clergy and religion. Training of rabbis became impossible, and until the late 1980s only one Yiddish periodical was published. Hebrew, because of its identification with Zionism, was taught only in schools for diplomats. Most of the 5,000 synagogues functioning prior to the Bolshevik Revolution were closed under Stalin, and others were closed under Khrushchev. For all intents and purposes, the practice of Judaism became impossible, intensifying the desire of Jews to leave the Soviet Union.
>>
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>ITT: People drinking the NAZI kool-aid and actually thinking they've peeked behind some spooky masquerade that the common plebs are unaware of.
>>
>>6300695
>american
>thinks everyone who agrees with national socialist economic policies and disdain of jews is pro-hitler and its regime entirely
hivemind
>>
>>6300680
Then let's go through it together mr. Notanidiot, shall we?

Translate this, shouldn't be a problem, if you know German so well as you say.
>Be wird darauf aufmerksam gemacht, dass mit sofortiger wirkung die anfertigung sogenannter Geschenk-artikel (Schrumpkopfe) einzustellen ist.
>>
>>6300705
https://archive.org/details/AleksandrSolzhenitsyn200YearsTogether

had to do it
>>
>>6300703
???
>>
>>6300716
that has nothing to do with the picture you posted. Why change the subject?
>>
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>>6300711
>thinks everyone who agrees with NAZI policies and ideology is pro-hitler
Only on anonymous websites is this kind of shitposting tolerated.
I refuse to believe people are this ignorant.
>>
>>6299748
There’s not nearly as many, that’s kind of the point.
>>
>>6300711
No, but wast majority of nazi larpers are american mongrels or westerner emasculated cuckolds whose country didn't expericance the tragic shit that east europe and even germany itself experienced and think their right.
For your knowledge, the easiest way to recognize a ameican nazi larper, is if he interprates Nazi ideology with his shity american huwite nationalism concept, when in reality nazis were pan-germanic imperialists.
They unironically think amerimutts(hitler's words not even my) actually belong to Third Reich simply if they praise the swastika and take all offence to it as personal attack.
>>
>>6300731
>only on an anonymous website is this type of shitposting tolerated because the msm and hollywood are run by jews, jews buy our politicians (see: the lobby and the israel lobby documentaries by al jazeera) to the point where even criticizing israel or a single jew could ruin your life
ftfy
>>
>>6300739
ok so i'm not american nor german and your what you're saying is utterly pointless. Congrats?
>>
>>6300729
>that has nothing to do with the picture (>>6300356) you posted.
>It's literally the first sentence of the letter
Anon, give me a break and stop trying to weasel your way out.

You already gave up on the soaps and you know I'm correct even on this one. At the end you will have to claim that the document is fake, not that I can't read it.
>>
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>>6300742
>because the msm and hollywood are run by jews...
>>
>>6300719
Linking to an entire book is not how citations work, my retarded stormfag.
>>
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>>6300754
>>
>>6300749
>utterly pointless.
Not really pointless unless you an actual /his/ poster instead of umm, let's say a /pol/nig.
On /his/ historical information is valuable and even if it's pointless to you, some other poster reads its and judges for himself.

Now to wank a fat one to blacked /pol/ threads
>>
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>>6300754
and
>>
>>6300752
>asking me to translate something you can't read
>knowing full well that when you try to translate it from german to english it won't work
Protip: I don't understand 100% of german but i do (a lot)
>already gave a hint of my language in earlier post
>>
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>>6300762
>>6300771
Why do all you people lack self-awareness, were just born retards or am I being trolled epic style?
>>
>>6300761
you're too lazy to go and look at the 130+ citations, you pick and choose which or which not to read so i posted a book that details the history very clearly from someone who experienced it.
>kys
>>
>>6300780
now it's hard to google names? The biggest mistake you people made is not hiding your jewish ancestry/ethnicity/religion from wikipedia yet (i assume it will happen soon enough)
>>
>>6295039
> he uses shopped photos as his evidence
jajjajaj what a tool.
>>
>>6295044
Commieblocks are fucking hideous, an affront to architecture.
>>
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Stormniggers are so predictable that even /leftypol/ faggots are more illusive.
>Post garbage propaganda
>Get questioned for proof
>Posts debunked propaganda or doesn't post any sources info at all
>Get's told about his bs
>Get's mad and screams "JOOOOS REEEE" while ignoring any arguments
Keep doing that, people will continue see you for what you are.
>>
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>>6300788
>I'm a jew for not falling for the same /pol/ tard retardation that you caught?
There is only so much stupidity a human being can take before they give up. I've reached that point. You lot a just hopeless and don't deserve to be engaged with any sort of sincerity. Just die or something, please.
>>
>>6300805
>everyone right of stalin or who notices jews being vastly over represented in the media, lobbies, refugee/migration programs, etc is a stormfag
cope
>>
>>6300814
>falling for
google the names idiot
>>
>>6300773
I've run your post through bitch2man translator and this is what I got
>ugh, no, I don't want to argue I know I am wrong, but please don't make me admit it!

So for my amusement I will try to push you once more to translate this sentence, before I do it personally:
>Be wird darauf aufmerksam gemacht, dass mit sofortiger wirkung die anfertigung sogenannter Geschenk-artikel (Schrumpkopfe) einzustellen ist.

btw do you realize you first claimed you read the picture and that it's not a Nazi document (>>6300396), then when I showed you the first sentence of it you said "that has nothing to do with the picture you posted" (>>6300729)? You are one bad liar, my dear American. All this with a continous audacity to insult me for thinking I can't read it...
>>
>>6300819
>REEEEE EVERYONE IS AN AMERICAN
>LYING
it's not a nazi document, get over it
>>
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>>6300815
>resorting to shit no one said
Lmao at you, fool.
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>>6300826
>needs the last word in attempt to discredit someone pointing out truths look stupid
anon...
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>>6300818
>Implying I care that Jews exist
>Implying that because some hold positions of influence that makes your stupidity any more justifiable
>Implying you've not fallen for long debunked propaganda
>Implying you, a NAZI sympathizer has a stronger grasp on reality than a loser like me.

You lot genuinely make me disappointed I failed to kill myself.
>>
>>6300784
That is not how historical discussion works, my braindead stormfriend . Which part supports your claim and based on which evidence? The parts touching collectivization, which is where most of the death toll comes from, doesn't claim that it was targeting christians. Try again.
>>
>>6300839
>debunked propaganda
what debunked propaganda?
>>6300842
enforcing atheism as the state religion and persecuting clergy and monastics is not evidence
Dimitry V. Pospielovsky. The Russian Church under the Soviet Regime, 1917-1989 (Crestwood, NY: St Vladimir's Seminary Press, 1984) ch 2.

shoooooo
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>>6300825
Why do you think so?
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>>6300852
>what debunked propaganda?
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>>6300855
no reference, no name, just a scribbled signature at the fucking bottom, this isn't even an official document
>>6300863
my point exactly
>>
>>6300852
>enforcing atheism as the state religion and persecuting clergy and monastics is not evidence
So you've abandoned your claim that 16-20 million christians were killed for being christian and are now just claiming that clergy was persecuted, something nobody ever denied. I'll take this as conceding that you have not a single piece of evidence for your previous claim.
>>
>>6300885
no the source i provided was just one single example of christians being persecuted in the soviet union for their faith
>putting words in peoples mouths
>>
>>6300839
Try again fag not like anyone in your life is that fond of you
>>
>>6300905
The source you "provided" doesn't support your point. I assume that's why you didn't point to any specific passage.
You know, for something which you claim has dozens of sources supporting it readily available you sure seem to be struggling to find any kind of evidence of christian genocide. Mainly because it's made up stormtard bullshit, as usual.
>>
>>6300925
>Patriarch Tikhon of Moscow excommunicated the Soviet leadership on January 19, 1918 (Julian Calendar) for conducting this campaign. In retaliation the regime arrested and killed dozens of bishops, thousands of the lower clergy and monastics, and multitudes of laity.

>Doesn't support my claim
holy shit do you people never give up?
>>
>>6300930
And again, you went from 16-20 million to some clergy. Literally brain damaged.
>>
>>6300874
>no reference, no name, just a scribbled signature at the fucking bottom
Don't pretend like you know what are you speaking about, when you see a thing like that for a first time.

>this isn't even an official document
What is "official document" to you? It has clear proffesional form, it isn't personal correspondance.

>no name
>SS-Standortazt Weimar
Don't accuse others ofr inability to read, when you can't read yourself.
>>
>>6300942
yes i'm going to go through every single documented murder of christians over the span of decades until i have reached the 16-20 million that is estimated and widely acknowledged by historians across the globe
>you're an imbecile
>>6300947
>SS-Standortazt Weimar
Literally a nobody who has never been documented in history
>>
>>6300874
>the authenticity of the document is confirmed in W. Benz (Hrsg.) and B. Distel (Hrsg.), Der Ort des Terrors. Geschichte der nationalsozialistischen Konzentrationslager. Sachsenhausen, Buchenwald, mit Nebenlagern, 2006, S. 349; the archival reference is given as "Thür. HStA Weimar, KZ Buchenwald, Nr. 9, Bl. 88", S. 356n76)
>Hoven is known to have been the garrison physician (Standortarzt) already in April of 1942 (cf. R. Hirte, H. Stein, "Die Beziehungen der Universität Jena zum Konzentrationslager Buchenwald", in U. Hossfeld et al. (Hrsg.), Kämpferische Wissenschaft: Studien zur Universität Jena im Nationalsozialismus, 2003, S. 371; U. Schneider, H. Stein, IG-Farben AG, Abt. Behringwerke Marburg: KZ Buchenwald Menschenversuche: ein dokumentarischer Bericht, 1983, S. 24); the signatures on Hoven's 27.07.1941 and 02.02.1942 letters correspond to the signature on the 07.05.1942 letter.
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2017/11/nazi-shrunken-heads-human-skin.html?m=1
>>
>>6300957
>holocaustcontroversies BLOGSPOT
wew lad you've resorted to tumblr posting
>>
>>6300956
>yes i'm going to go through every single documented murder of christians
So you've given up due to lack of evidence after proving clergy was persecuted, which everybody agreed upon since the beginning. Unable to provide any instance of christian genocide, mind you.
Literally retarded.

>16-20 million that is estimated and widely acknowledged by historians across the globe
Weird that for such an widely accepted fact you can't point me to any historian claiming they were genocided for being christian. Almost like it's not widely accepted but rather bullshit that even the sources you posted disagree with.
>>
>>6300964
Great argument, didn't expect more.
>>
>>6300986
>given up
>lack of evidence
No, it's just a waste of time trying to prove something to someone who will discredit evidence right infront of their eyes
>>6300989
desu i didn't expect anything besides from a blogpost from you in the first place
>great argument indeed
>>
>>6301002
>spend the entire thread pretending you can link to sources which support your claim
>they either don't support it or directly refute you
>try to move the goalpost to clergy persecution which nobody had denied
>doesn't work
>give any excuse imaginable to not post evidence or source
>after failing to provide evidence for the entire thread, say "b-b-but you'll just discredit the evidence so I won't post it"
retarded
e
t
a
r
d
e
d
>>
>>6300445
And there he goes: >>6300671, like clockwork.
>>
>>6301040
>Dimitry V. Pospielovsky. A History of Soviet Atheism in Theory, and Practice, and the Believer, vol 1: A History of Marxist-Leninist Atheism and Soviet Anti-Religious Policies, St Martin's Press, New York (1987) pg 27
>[Lenin: A Revolutionary Life by Christopher Read https://books.google.com/books?id=hkBv3EP6rjMC&pg=PA251&dq=christopher+read+lenin+priests&cd=1#v=onepage&q&f=false]
>Dimitry V. Pospielovsky. A History of Soviet Atheism in Theory, and Practice, and the Believer, vol 2: Soviet Antireligious Campaigns and Persecutions, St Martin's Press, New York (1988) pg 15
>Dimitry V. Pospielovsky. A History of Soviet Atheism in Theory, and Practice, and the Believer, vol 2: Soviet Antireligious Campaigns and Persecutions, St Martin's Press, New York (1988) pg 15
>Dimitry V. Pospielovsky. A History of Soviet Atheism in Theory, and Practice, and the Believer, vol 2: Soviet Antireligious Campaigns and Persecutions, St Martin's Press, New York (1988) pg 16
>Dimitry V. Pospielovsky. A History of Soviet Atheism in Theory, and Practice, and the Believer, vol 1: A History of Marxist-Leninist Atheism and Soviet Anti-Religious Policies, St Martin's Press, New York (1987) pg 124
>Dimitry V. Pospielovsky. A History of Soviet Atheism in Theory, and Practice, and the Believer, vol 1: A History of Marxist-Leninist Atheism and Soviet Anti-Religious Policies, St Martin's Press, New York (1987) pg 33

how much more do you need lmfao>?
>>
>>6295018
Because nazism wasn't evil.
>>
And Stalin killed his own people by doing massive purges, sending people to GULAG, and deporting them to Siberia
>>
>>6301040
>>6301142
>Letter from Lenin to Molotov, 1922, webpage: http://www.ibiblio.org/expo/soviet.exhibit/ae2bkhun.html
>Becker, Winfried. "Diplomats and missionaries: the role played by the German embassies in Moscow and Rome in the relations between Russia and the Vatican from 1921 to 1929." The Catholic Historical Review 92.1 (2006)
>Gregory L. Freeze. Counter-Reformation in Russian Orthodoxy: Popular Response to Religious Innovation, 1922-1925. Slavic Review, Vol. 54, No. 2 (Summer, 1995), pp. 305-339
>Father Arseny 1893-1973 Priest, Prisoner, Spiritual Father. Introduction pg. vi - 1. St Vladimir's Seminary Press ISBN 0-88141-180-9
>L.Alexeeva, History of dissident movement in the USSR, Memorial society, in Russian
>Aлeкcaндp Гинзбypг. Toлькo oдин гoд - 1976". www.index.org.ru. Retrieved 17 April 2018.
>The Washington Post Anti-Communist Priest Gheorghe Calciu-Dumitreasa By Patricia Sullivan Washington Post Staff Writer Sunday, November 26, 2006; Page C09 https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/11/25/AR2006112500783.html
>Adrian Cioroianu, Pe umerii lui Marx. O introducere în istoria comunismului românesc ("On the Shoulders of Marx. An Incursion into the History of Romanian Communism"), Editura Curtea Veche, Bucharest, 2005
>Alexander Nikolaevich Yakovlev. A Century of Violence in Soviet Russia. Yale University Press, 2002. ISBN 0-300-08760-8 page 156
>Church Schism & Corruption. Lulu.com. p. 154. ISBN 978-1-4092-2186-9.
>Richard Pipes. Russia Under the Bolshevik Regime. Vintage Books, 1994 ISBN 0-679-76184-5 pg 356
>Ostling, Richard. "Cross meets Kremlin" TIME Magazine. June 24, 2001. http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,150718,00.html
>Dimitry V. Pospielovsky. A History of Soviet Atheism in Theory, and Practice, and the Believer, vol 1: A History of Marxist-Leninist Atheism and Soviet Anti-Religious Policies, St Martin's Press, New York (1987) pg 66
>>
>>6301142
Downloaded Pospielovsky's work from library genesis. None of the cited passages claims mass genocide based on christians beliefs. Most refer (once again!) to persecution of clergy.
Braindead.

>how much more do you need lmfao>?
It would be nice if you could provide any at all.
>>
>>6301192
>keeps posting shit related to the persecution of clergy
You have to be trolling. It's hard to believe someone this idiotic exists.
>>
>>6301040
>>6301142
>>6301192
>Alexander N. Yakovlev (2002). A Century of Violence in Soviet Russia. Yale University Press. p. 165. See also: Richard Pipes (2001). Communism: A History. Modern Library Chronicles. p. 66.
>Dimitry V. Pospielovsky. A History of Soviet Atheism in Theory, and Practice, and the Believer, vol 2: Soviet Antireligious Campaigns and Persecutions, St Martin's Press, New York (1988) pg 93
>Dimitry V. Pospielovsky. A History of Soviet Atheism in Theory, and Practice, and the Believer, vol 2: Soviet Antireligious Campaigns and Persecutions, St Martin's Press, New York (1988) pg 94
>"Soviet repression of the Ukrainian Catholic Church." Department of State Bulletin 87 (1987)
>Wasyliw, Zenon V. "Orthodox Church divisions in newly independent Ukraine, 1991-1995." East European Quarterly 41.3 (2007)
>Dimitry V. Pospielovsky. A History of Soviet Atheism in Theory, and Practice, and the Believer, vol 2: Soviet Antireligious Campaigns and Persecutions, St Martin's Press, New York (1988) pg 94
>Dimitry V. Pospielovsky. A History of Soviet Atheism in Theory, and Practice, and the Believer, vol 2: Soviet Antireligious Campaigns and Persecutions, St Martin's Press, New York (1988) pg 94-95
>Dimitry V. Pospielovsky. A History of Soviet Atheism in Theory, and Practice, and the Believer, vol 1: A History of Marxist-Leninist Atheism and Soviet Anti-Religious Policies, St Martin's Press, New York (1987) pg 78
>Ostling, Richard. "Cross meets Kremlin" TIME Magazine. June 24, 2001. http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,150718,00.html
>>6301212
>>6301219
"In 1922, the Solovki Camp of Special Purpose, the first Russian concentration camp and a former Orthodox monastery, was established in the Solovki Islands in the White Sea.[55] In the years 1917–1935, 130,000 Russian Orthodox priests were arrested; 95,000 were put to death, executed by firing squad"
>>
>>6301212
>>6301219
morons,
I'm out enjoy your friday night on 4chan
>>
>>6301224
Let me know when you're done spamming and actually post evidence of 20 million murdered for being christians instead of clergy persecution.
>>
>>6295018
The Soviet Union was indisputably more evil than most nations, specially under Stalin. But to say the USSR was on the same tier as Nazi Germany is plain wrong. The latter legitimated itself with an aggressive form of ethno-nationalism, actively persuing the extermination of 45 million people in Eastern Europe. There were no extermination camps in the USSR, and the vast majority of the prisoners survived the Gulags. Soviet nationalism was multiethnic and, although there were varying degrees of repression against all sizable nationalities, it never sought the elimination of any of its constituent peoples. Although the death tolls of the two regimes are similar, most of Nazi victims were deliberately exterminated (17 million), while Soviet ones mostly perished by starvation (13 million). What we could discuss is whether the Soviet state, at least until liberalization, treated its common citizen worse than Nazi Germany, or if it caused more incidental and deliberate domestic destruction in order to secure its existence. From Stalin's death until the Soviet demise, the political repression was curbed and social indicators greatly improved, for an underdeveloped country.
>>
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>>6295039
To create a better world you sometimes need to make hard decisions, of course basedmilk-consuming weaklings from /his/ don't have what it takes to fucking kill and instead sperg out at true men and portray them as villains to justify their lack of balls.
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>>6301910
>To create a better world you sometimes need to make hard decisions
Yeah, like getting out of your basment and talking to people.
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>>6301910
Heroic True men won and are portrayed as such.
Nazi bean enthusiasts lost and can only larp as "strokmen" now, pathetically and desperatly trying to justify their weakling homo regime of the past, claiming it was innocent and creating a "better world of genodice" while jerking off to prussian military images.
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>>6295018
>Thread OP asked who was more evil, Nazis or Soviets.
>Most posters agree Soviets were evil but not on par of how horrendously evil Nazis were
>Stormnigs get trigerred and instantly start spamming outdated propaganda at how innconet and Nazis were while Soviets were satanic jew worshipers
>Lose entire point of who was more evil and just focus on portaying their shitty side not being evil in the first place while being debunked left or right and namecall people who disagree a jew
How pathetic do you have to be to defend a shitty genocidal regime that's entire point of its existence was deliberate and intentional genocide? I think this this entire and pretty much rest of the world proved who was cartoonishly evil.
>>
>>6300956
>Literally a nobody who has never been documented in history
Did you just moved the goalpost again? You didn't even need to, after a little research I found I made a mistake. It's not from doctor Weimar, it's from doctor from Weimar who is asking Pathology department of Buchenwald to stop peskering his men with requests for silly souvenirs like "Shrumpfkopfe". The Chief of pathology from Buchenwald at that time was quite likely the infamous Waldemar Hoven.
>>
EVEN IF NAZI GERMANY HELD OBJECTIVELY MORE REPREHENSIBLE AND HARMFUL IDEAS THE SOVIET UNION'S PROLONGED EXISTENCE ENABLED IT TO INFLICT FAR MORE EVILS AND INJUSTICE THAN NAZISM.
>>
>>6300169
>was 12-20 million
>now over 20 million
Keep going, I'm sure it'll be 100 gorillion devout Christians dying for their faith by the end of the thread
>>
>>6303316
>ENABLED IT TO INFLICT FAR MORE EVILS AND INJUSTICE THAN NAZISM
Like eliminating illiteracy, homelessness, joblessness, bringing food security to lands historically ravaged by famines, universal healthcare, scientific advancement, industrialization, and direct democracy.

It's an abomination, really. Empowering the lower classes. Who the fuck do the communists think they are?
>>
>>6303358
nazism did all of that too, arguably put a man on the moon. No one says it was worth all the dead and oppressed.
>>
>>6299315
pre-ww2 germany was a terrible place to be and Jews did have a disproportionate influence t the top of society.

Also, Hitler only wanted to expel the jews and let them have their own homeland like he wanted for his people. From the horses mouth: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9HmkRYlVZw
>>
>>6295107
they're wearing normal clothes you retard
they're either long term captured soldiers, which is still evil to kill, or civilians, which is merely worse
>>
>>6303316
Nobody with half a brain disputes that the Nazis were more evil in terms of their ideology
Measuring evilness in numbers of dead is not that great a metric though considering many were caused by things like mass famine rather than intentionally wanting people to die
>>
>>6303670
You forget the part where hitler changes his mind and has a Final Solution, and the fact that regardless of whether or not the idea was to give them a homeland that there is a decade of anti-semitic propaganda available thanks to Hitler establishing a ministry of propaganda
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>>6303366
>nazism did all of that too
Bandits using ill-gotten goods and slave labour to eliminate illiteracy, homelessness, joblessness, bring bringing food security to only a few chosen peoples whilst trying to eradicate most of humanity is not the same thing.
>>
The main point I hear is that communists killed more than nazis did.
But this is a very strange argument considering Hitler was in power for something like 10 years versus the decades of the Soviet Union being an outright dictatorship.
Nazis were killing more way faster than commies ever could.
>>
>>6295018
no country is evil, history only judges losers.
>>
>>6303316
>>6303316
I´m afraid that´s not true. Not to mention 3rd Reich lived so short partially because it was so evil, thus everyone united against it and their allies were pretty quick in abandoning them.
>>
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>>6303366
It didn't, though. It shit on the workers and lined the pockets of the 1%. And military expansion isn't "eliminating joblessness".
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>>6304932
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>>6304935
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>>6303670
>Hitler only wanted to expel the jews and let them have their own homeland like he wanted for his people
>Allies with the Grand Mufti who opposes their resettlement in said homeland
>Plans to send them to Madagascar with basically no supplies instead because Eurojew's would totally not die in the malarial jungle shithole
Even in a best case scenario it's pretty clear he wanted them to die by some cause
>>
>>6295018
In terms of death toll they were worse than the nazis
>>
Both were equally terrible, but at least Germany didn't intentionally starve out its own people. I guess it's a matter of opinion since both were so shitty.
>>
>>6298838
>alternative news website
Retard.
>>
>>6296317
>Stomped out superstitions

Trofim Lysenko rejected the idea that genetics existed and pushed farming techniques that starved tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, based entirely on pseudoscience that no one else in the world even entertained. He believed, among other things, that weeds could become grain, and that plants could spontaneously change their species.

Any scientist who questioned him was disappeared.
>>
>>6302107
you have to be a depressed edgy white NEET in america
>>
>>6303989
I don't get it, you just described the Soviet Union



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