Ho the FUCK did this guy get closer to unifying europe than even the EU of today and why the fuck was it all lost after his death?What went so horribly wrong, most of christian europe except england and spain were under his rule.I refuse to believe that it was just 1 guy holding that together for aslong as he did.
>>6294966It never happened and he never existed
>>6294966>Karlss des grossenIt's Charlemagne not KARL DER GROSSE ok?
>>6294984>CharlmagneIt's Carolus Magnus not Charlemagne ok?
>>6294966>why the fuck was it all lost after his death?because contrary to autistic 4chan memes about ebin evropean imperium ruling an empire that size is really really fucking hard
>>6294966Maybe you don't really understand how different the early medieval world was compared to today. It was essentially all frontier towns and tribes and clans. Charlemagne didn't have direct control but just dominion by being the emperor. A central government, administration, army or whatever din't exist, it was all done locally.
>>6294993The Romans managed much more for centuries not too long ago.
>>6294993I dont say that it is easy, but evidently he manage to create and maintain it throughout his life, so it IS possible.>>6294998You know that nobody would have dared to go against him, he didnt tolerate his brothers, he didnt tolerate the lombards, he didnt tolerate the saxons, he subdued everyone before him and got only stronger in time and everyone knew that at that time.
>>6295004Please. Romacucks couldn't even conquer Germania, The Frankish empire on the other hand did conquer Rome.
>>6295051>You know that nobody would have dared to go against him, he didnt tolerate his brothers, he didnt tolerate the lombards, he didnt tolerate the saxons, he subdued everyone before him and got only stronger in time and everyone knew that at that time.Yes, he had an army to subdue anyone he wanted, he was a very powerful warlord in very sparsely settled Europe with virtually no infrastructure left, like 2% of pop could read, 95% of those guys would be in a monastery. Europe back then was more of a post apocalyptic Mad Max world than anything else. Carl would have much less options to actually rule in a modern sense, but he could keep the peace and guarantee at least basic order. People tend to forget that nowadays.
>>6295053Except they did you retard.>The Frankish empire on the other hand did conquer Rome.The Pope literally invited them in to get rid of the Lombards.
>>6295004this>>6295053And one thing about rome is that their control over most of the regions was rather loose.They had a few decent holdings where the proconsul resided and maybe a few garrisons.The rest was mudhut villages( europe that is, not greece and provinces east of that)Everything they did with their provinces was exploit resources and tax the populace and taxes were collected by auctioning them off.The proconsul said we need 5 million and a private organisation came and said "we can get 6 million by the end of the year" and this went on until they settled on a certain amount.That should give you an idea of how little they cared about developing anything outside of italy.Thats also why in my opinion rome was a curse rather than a boon for europe, all they did was exploit the lands, oppressed the people there and just left them alone otherwise.How happy people were with their rule becomes clear during the time of Attila and the centuries to follow.
>>6295074Then why did it turn into mad max afterwards again?
>>6295089Yeah, I know, many Germanics conquered Rome, it was easy for them to conquer Rome.Rome on the other hand got btfod at Teutoburg and then left for good. Big mistake, Germans would come back and crash the Roman empire.
>>6295098Vikings, Saracenes, Magyars. 10th century was some real crazy war shit in Europe, everybody was raiding everyone and people were fighting for their very lives.
>>6295113But it was already like that at ~400 A.D.It was just a circle of raiding hordes wandering and raiding each other.Im actually amazed there were still things to plunder this entire time.
>>6295124No, 7th & 8th century already became increasingly peaceful with population growth. 9th & 10th became increasingly war ridden. The Vikings raided the British Isles and everything on the French coast, the Muslim did overrun Spain and Saracene bands would plunder all of southern Europe and block the med sea and then Horsefuckers showed up and did depopulate large parts of central and western Europe in best Mongol style. Just bad luck that all did show at more or less the same time.
>>6295163And this was only the start of things yet to come, why is europe such a horrible place to be in?
>>6294984I wish I had a better sense of humour and didn't find these memes the funniest things ever
>Alexander the Great makes an empire so vast, that his soldiers get sick of winning so much>dies>empire gets carved up like the Gordian knot>Karl der Grosse makes an empire so multilingual, that we're still arguing over his name>dies>empire breaks like a beer stein on a rock>Genghis Khan makes an empire to even impress Tengrii>dies>empire splits like a bundle of arrows under the hooves of horses>Victoria Regina makes an empire bigger than the British thirst for tea>dies>empire slowly disintegrates like British gun laws>Steve Jobs makes a computer empire bigger than his ego>gets fired>Windows gets releasedIt's almost as if rapid, unsustainable expansion built upon the strengths of an individual do not outlive that individual.Sure, they don't do everything, or even a majority themselves, but they are the epicentre of all the different relationships, loyalties, and decision-making in that empire. They become like the keystone in an arch, they're not doing all the work, but they're supporting everyone who is doing that work.
>>6295191I got some aswell
>>6295204The problem is that karls empire was fucking tiny compared to the others on your list.
>>6295234anachronistic flag on that one.
>>6295241Yeah, but he's the topic of the thread!There are plenty of smaller and more obscure empires which the same thing happened, although the overall tendency is probably to contract than to completely fall apart, because they're not overextended to quite the same degree. Africa had a few of these I believe, when spearchuckers suddenly got hold of muskets and started chucking lead.It's just the most dramatic examples were of large empires which suddenly grew many times larger than their starting size. They're also the examples everyone's familiar with.
>>6294966He split it up between his sons and they were dipshits.
>>6294966>>6295204>>6295315>The empire fell apart after he diedHave you guys been memed? Are you from an alternate timeline? The empire stayed completely intact when he died and peacefully passed to his son
Lothar is obviously the patrician choice, Karl & Ludwig are for plebs.
>>6294989It's Carlos Magno ok? He was Portuguese.
>>6295456While I agree, their father Louis the Pious was retarded for constantly screwing with the succession which lead to the civil war and the de facto split of the empire
>>6294984>>6294989>>6295465>It's Charlemagne>It's Carolus Magnus>It's Carlos Magno ok>Not Karl Magnus Unbelievable, stop approapriating Swedish culture you fucking continentals.
>>6295496>Karel de Grote>Not Dutch
>>6295496>>6295517He's a great leader, so clearly he comes from a great people. Therefore I conclude that Carlos ang Dakila must have been Filipino, the most powerful race.
>>6295113>Not a single invader in Slav land
Karmazl al Harika was a Turk my friends
>>6295601Nothing worth looting.
>>6295634>implying they were not the ones that were doing the looting
>>6295496He was finno-ugric, so it's Kaarle Suuri
>>6295456I feel like dividing it horizontally instead of vertically might have worked out better.
>>6295601Check the map again
>>6294993The Kingdom was divided because the Frankish tradition considered the state as the property of the King, and thus was divided between his children. This caused the fall of the Merovingians and their successors established inheritance by primogeniture, which stabilized a lot the country.
>>6295496>not calling him Karlev Magnovitch like the true slav he was
>>6295681Dividing it horizontally wouldn’t have made any sense. There was some logic in the way they did divide it
>>6294966>>6294993>>6295204>why the fuck was it all lost after his death?It wasn’t you retards
>>6295496>>6295517>>6295655>>6295747>Not Ο Κάρλος ο Μέγας, like the greek he was
>>6295713"established inheritance by primogeniture, which stabilized a lot the country"That's wrong. Charlemagne and Louis the Pious managed to avoid civil war because their siblings died whereas Lothar and following Carolingian's suffered because of the split inheritance. The only thing inherited by the oldest son was the imperial title. It's only during Henry the Fowler that primogeniture came into power.
>>6296125>Louis the Pious managed to avoid civil war You clearly know nothing about his reign
>>6296131I'm on about his own brothers who died before his ascension to Emperor. Same issue with Charlemagne and Carloman.
>>6296225How do you know he would have fought his brothers in a civil war had they not died before Charlemagne?
>>6294966Ever heard of Gavelkind succession?
>>6296288CK2 meme, Gravelkind only existed in a few parts of Anglo-Saxon England.
>>6296257I don't but it's typical of the time and happened with every generation of Carolingian rule after Louis. Sources suggest it nearly happened between Charlemagne and Carloman until the latters death.
>>6295465>>6294989>>6295496>>6295517>>6295590>>6295655>>6295747>>6295788You are all out of your minds. Fuck you and your wewuzzing.How can you call Carlão da Silva Magninho anything other than Brazilian master race?
>>6296438Based sopa de macaco
>>6296438Sorry lad, but his name is Big Charlie
>>6295496His name was Charlie Mongoose and he was a proud AMERICAN boy, God bless
>>6298129Are ye out of ye mind man? His name was Champion Chezza and he was a geordie.
>>6295496>misappropriating the great Irishman Cathail Mór
>>6295776>>6295435It stayed together, with serious pressure, for a few decades before splitting apart.If you're saying this is much different than immediately splitting, you're wrong.
>>6295496I'll let you in on a little bit of /his/ board culture: Everyone around here knows Кapл Beликий was a Ukrainian cossack from the Zaporozhian Host. People only pretend otherwise as a joke.
>>6298573A few decades make a difference, especially when a new emperor is ruling. I suppose my problem is that the empire splitting is ascociated with Charles, even though he had nothing to do with it.
>>6299089The point I made in my original post was that the extreme success of one person makes the successor's job very difficult, as much of the success is based on personal relationships that the successor does not have. They also rise so fast that they don't have time to establish the kinds of bureaucracy and networks needed to maintain lower level cooperation between local rulers and nations, which may take generations to establish. If you've only been at peace with your neighbours for a decade or so under a ruler, and that ruler dies, you're liable to go back to hating them. I also gave examples of both immediate fractures, as well as stuff that took twice as long as in Charlie's case.States, institutions, organisations, and nations headed by a single strongman type have notorious problems in their transitions out of the strongman's rule, it's basically the same shit that causes civil wars in Africa today, as they have many of the same problems of disparate nations under one state.But this time, with automatic rifles and explosives for added pizzazz!>tl;dr His name was Karolo Mkuu, a Swahili chieftain from East Africa!
>>6294984>>6294989>>6295496ayo dese whyte bois trying to steal our culture, his name was CHAR-LEEZ DA GR8ST and he was a proud BLACK man
>>6294966Succession laws divided the empire. Shame really.
>>6299066That's propaganda actually, everyone knows Cao Mao was chinese
>>6299260Carlo Magno was an Iberian from andalucia wich is obvius when you see how loved he was by God
>>6298114This is his name to me from now on.
>>6299207His name was Big Chuck, nigger, the proudest Yankee around.
Fuck off cunts, Cangaroo Madsen was a bright australian bloke and you all know it!
>>6295601>Not a single invader in Slav landThe Poles were allied with the Vikings, Cnut the Great's mom for example was Polish.
>>6299237>*civil war divided the empire*Fixed it for you
>>6299500>Polish>Viking timeNo such thingShe can be from polyane tribe but not polish
>>6299858>Sister of Polish King >No such thing as polandstate of /his/. This board is worse then /pol/ at this point
>>6294984>>6294989>>6295465>>6295496>>6295517>>6295611>>6295655>>6295747>>6295788>>6296438>>6298114>>6298129>>6298172>>6299066>>6299207>>6298520>>6299260>>6299267>>6299272>>6299280Are you people denying the obvious Polish descent of Càrlusz Makćzusak ?
>>6294984serious question: when did people start pronouncing Charlemagne approximately the way the French do today? I mean ch as sh, gn as nunez and the final e elided? Would it have sounded like that in his lifetime? Asking because king Sármány is a rather obscure figure in Hungarian folk tales and I wonder if it is something relatively modern, like after printing, or something really ancient.
>>6299858>Polish>but not PolishOh wow, okay retard.