Isnt it true that the German Army was undefeated in the field in the east? My black(e) friend keeps going on about "deep battle" but i don't see how throwing barely armed conscripts everywhere at once is supposed to be effectiveInfact when you look at disasters for the Red Army like Kharkov, Rhzev or Kursk it seemed like it prolonged the war
>>5952493No. Go look up things like Bagration, Jassy-Kishniev, and Belgrade.
>>5952493>disasters for the Red Army like Kharkov, Rhzev or Kursk
You wouldn’t expect many occurrences of that in any war because generally you only commit to a field battle if you think you can win or gain from it.
>>5952505Not him, but Rhzev and all 3 Kharkov battles ended badly for the Red Army.
>>5952498>human wave attacks while the bulk of the german army was being sent west>>5952505>implying those arent disastersOkay ivan
>>5952505>lost over a quarter of a million men alone at Kursk>not a disaster
>>5952580Tell me who won Kursk?
>>5952580They stopped the Germans from encircling the Kursk salient How is that a disaster?
>>5952594Germany desu. The losses they inflicted at Kursk dragged the war on for years. It pretty much prevented the Red army from ever really taking advantage of their post Stalingrad initiative. You can read more about this in David Irvings work on ww2, but bascially the reason the red army never got to Berlin until 1945 is that post Kursk they were so devastated they just sat back and let England, America and Free France do all the work
>>5952601See>>5952609And maybe a glass of water instead of potatoe vodka
>>5952493>black(e)What did you mean by that?
>>5952519This. You know things are bad when your army starts to dwarf the enemy and you have the world's most powerful countries as allies and your army is still coming away with pyrrhic victories at best and some of histories worst defeats at worst.
>>5952609>David John Cawdell Irving is an English author and Holocaust denier
>sustaining more casualties means you lose>the Soviets never went on the offensive post Kursk>the Soviets sat back and let the west do all the work
>>5952493>Isnt it true that the German Army was undefeated in the field in the east?https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalin%27s_ten_blowsthe Wehrmacht was outright smashed to pieces on the eastern front man, no K/D ratio will change the fact that Germany outright failed in their objectives.>>5952609>David Irving's workWelp that explains everything. No use even trying to dissuade your already batshit argument.
>>5952609>it wasn't a giant one punch knockout so they didn't winAmerican detected
>>5952678>>5952725>haha you're a holocaust denier your argument is invalidI smell plebbit. also read>>5952609
OP has clearly just watched Enemy at the Gates for the first time, and believes they are now an expert on Soviet strategy.Also,>literally relying on KD ratios as part of the argument.
He is half-right. I think it applies more to anglos, who got their asses kicked by Germans throughout the first half of the war, so they were hiding behind the canal and Ivans did all the job defeating them, so anglos only started meme "liberation" when it became obvious that it would take less then a year for Stalinum tanks to reach Western Europe.
> My black(e) friend > throwing barely armed conscripts everywhere at once > disasters for the Red Army like [...] KurskOP is obviously a bait
>>5952753>I smell plebbitGet off of /his/, your nearly as bad as the tankies
>>5952493Did you say undefeated in the east?
>all these retards falling for bait hook, line, and sinker even after OP has outed himself as a shitposter by referring to David Irving and focusing on k/d, whilst making outrageous claims like undefeated in the eastAll of you, neck yourselves, now.
>>5952798>OP has outed himself as a shitposter by referring to David Irvingcould be the same guy using David Irving in the Jap-thread a few days ago
>>5952638This. The Sov military incompetence was breathtaking.They lost 14.5 million servicemen. Think about that number. The idiots sent 14.5M to their death, and were still fighting on their own soil in places in 1945. A 14.5M strong army should have been able to fart their way to victory, and these idiots got them all killed instead.
>>5952961why didn’t we attack them then?
>>5952904>could be another shitposterCongratulations on your 1st week on 4chan.
>>5952970thank you, do i get a gold star?
>>5952966because who wants another war you fucking tanky
>>5952961>muh numbers so it should be easyNot how war worked.
>>5953004But it would ensure American domination of the world with no other country that could challenge it
>>5953028That's the reason the commies are squatting down with cabbage today though. That is how war worked for them.
>>5952774>m-maybe if I post my wet dream pic about us btfo'ing the nazis the fact that I have no argument will go away!!
>Germins kuld hav wun>Human wayves>Muh K/D
>>5953599You dont seem to have an argument
>>5953601I could spend an hour explaining why Germany was destined to lose. But its simply easier to bait the other side into laying out their wet dreams and fantasies for all to see. I love arguing the same points every day as much as the next guy but I'm tired today.
>>5953658>I could spend an hour explainingyou don't seem to have the brainpower, kid
>>5953658>Germany was destined to loseWithout the United States Germany would have literally won in the east though
>>5952493>Isnt it true that the German Army was undefeated in the field in the east?https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Stalingrad
>>5953700>it takes more than a hour to explain why Germany was destined to failIt would take longer to explain why Hitler chose to set up his summer retreat in Munich rather than Saxony. Or why I chose to get up on the left side of bed this morning.
>>5953710> it's this meme again
>>5953710When will this meme die? 2% of lend-lease came before Stalingrad
>>5953737>>5953738Glantz isnt a source he literally has connections to the Russian military college. Hes on their payroll to spout propaganda for 12 year olds
>>5953747Glantz isn't the only person who says this (despite him using primary sources)? In b4 people post the thing from the Khrushchev memoir
>>5953747It's Stahel tho, he relies on the German archives only in his estimations of the attrition rates and supply situation of the German armies in 1941. Germans were fucked well before the first shipping of LL arrived.
>>5953710>lend lease saved SovietsBy 1942 the LL was barely reaching the Soviet. By 1942 Germany was hitting a rock wall in the north and Paulus was eating horse meat in the south. By 1943>Kursk>half of Italy switches sides1944>Western front reopens>Eastern front is folding 1945>Hitler is playing Fuhrer roulette and Soviets are playing Stalingrad 2:Mongols in Berlin
>>5953760Kruschev was literally on the ground for world war 2. I would take his, Stalin, and Zhukovs word over a bunch of armchair historians who WERENT EVEN THEREAnd glantz pretty much IS the last major historian left in the "Soviet Union mattered in ww2" camp. And he does it to sell his shitty 80iq novels
>>5953766Stahel is an even bigger closet marxist than Glantz>>5953773>muh ItalyOhh wow so this is the power of 15 million Soviet deaths
Even assuming Germany conquered the Russian steppes, they couldn't even keep Yugoslavia or France in their hands. How would they ever be able to occupy all of Russia without half of it constantly draining all their resources.
>>5953775That... isn't how historical research works, lol. Khruschev doesn't even say it himself, he relays Stalin saying it, then says "mind you, Stalin talked a lot of shit"
>>5953798The mental gymnastics with you communists is unreal. So first Stalin is a source but if he says anything remotely critical of the red army he isnt? Hahaha get real zoomer
>>5953780> works extensively with the German prime sources> provides sources for every claim> cites from hundreds of diaries, letters, reports> I don't like his conclusions, he must be a closet MarxistRight, better go back reading memoirs of German generals and the Cold War histories written by them.
>>5953816>writing a fluff peice made to fillet the Red Army>lol pls take this totoally unbiased source seriously XD PAY NO ATTENTION to Kruschev or Guederian or anyone that was there go- i mean guy
>>5953810Do you know anything about what a "source" is?
>>5953780>MuH K/DWe're back to thisSoviets spent most of the war on the offensive against an experienced and decently equipped, modern army. >P>poor and desperate choices by Soviet commanders in 1941 are dumb choices. >my surprise is surprisingItaly was Germanys only major ally and they lost half of it. Now they're fighting most of the world, alone.>Romania>Hungary>FinlandDidn't want to be there.>Observe them bailing as soon as Soviet troops stepped into their soil
>>5953830>fillet the red army
Glantz really is a facile stooge. And US transport, wheeled and railed, kept the Sov rabble from defeat. Heck, they supplied much of their boots. It isn't a stretch to say that without the US, the commies would have been walking barefoot.
>>5953830This is some pretty awful bait ya know, but it will get a ton of replies either way.
>>5953830> reading Kruschev and Guederian uncriticallySure, both are highly trustworthy sources with no agenda to push.Not really tho.
Reminder that the only thing matters in the end is the victor. And the Soviets defeat Germany, anything else is irelevant
>>5953846>le baitOkay ivan>>5953845This. Glantz has long been laughed out of most western academia for his Russophilia. I think his butt budy House is actually under investigation on Espionage charges for feeding the Kremlin secrets tooIt's why most people in the military and scholastic circles would rather just forget these two slavic fools existed
>>5953862>This. Glantz has long been laughed out of most western academia for his Russophilia.Please show me some respected western academics "laughing out" Glantz for his Russophilia.
>>5953857>And the Soviets defeat Germany,The Soviet German front was a tactical stalemate at best and at no time influenced the war NEARLY as much as the air war or the allies landing way closer to Germany than Russia ever got without having all the divisions on their front replaced by young boys and old men as the REAL german army was sent westward
>>5952678>>5952722>>5952737Not an argument
>>5953871It literally does not matter, Soviet troops took Berlin and germany lost.
>>5953886Only because they were allowed to. The Soviet army taking Berlin is largegly irrelevant as all of Germanys air force, navy and the best parts of her army were crushed in the west. Not the east
>>5953886This is why Richard Evans says that counterhistories of this type belies reactionary sympathy: there's no way to engage with it without stripping the war in the East of its essentially political element
>>5953899>leftie amerigolbin rich evans has a boner for commiesNot surprising
>>5953912Sir Richard John Evans FBA FRSL FRHistS FLSW (born 29 September 1947), is a British historian of nineteenth- and twentieth-century Europe with a focus on Germany. He is the author of eighteen books, including his three-volume The Third Reich Trilogy (2003–2008) that has been hailed as "brilliant" and "magisterial." Evans was Regius Professor of History at the University of Cambridge from 2008 until his retirement in 2014, and President of Cambridge's Wolfson College from 2010 to 2017. He has been Provost of Gresham College in London since 2014. Evans was appointed Knight Bachelor for services to scholarship in the 2012 Birthday Honours.
>>5953894>best parts of her armyNo>navyMore irrelevant than the Romanian defenses at Stalingrad>air forceDead and useless by 1943. A few stukas ain't doing shit against several thousand T-34s and several million men>Soviet air force was also superior by then as well
>>5952609https://www.hdot.org/evans/>"Very soon after we had begun our examination of Irving's work along the lines sketched out above, it became clear that Irving did all of these things. Penetrating beneath the confident surface of his prose quickly revealed a mass of distortion and manipulation in every issue we tackled that was so tangled that detailing it sometimes took up many more words than had been devoted to it in Irving's original account. Unpicking the eleven-page narrative of the anti-Jewish pogrom of the so-called Reichskristallnacht in Irving's book Goebbels: Mastermind of the 'Third Reich' and tracing back every part of it to the documentation on which it purports to rest takes up over seventy pages of the present Report. A similar knotted web of distortions, suppressions and manipulations became evident in every single instance which we examined. We have not suppressed any occasion on which Irving has used accepted and legitimate methods of historical research, exposition and interpretation: there were none"
>>5953935>Soviet air forceRussians were loosing 8 planes for every downed German one by 1945. Its was literally world war 1 tier for the entirety of the war
>>5953944losing*>citation needed>implying there was a luftwaffe by 1945
>>5953954More of an air force than the Russian death traps
>>5953961>citation still needed
>>5953894>The best parts of Germany's army were crushed in the west. Oh dear
>>5953944Oh dear who would have guessed stacking Berlin with AA would down so many Soviet planes?!?!
>>5953977>every major SS armored divison engaged and destroyed in the westBut let me guess anon static HJ detachment number 472 was more important to the war effort huh?
>>5952493War is not a game where whoever wins the most battles or kills the more than the other side gets more points. It's based on destroying and forcing your enemies to submit. The Soviets won the same way the Ancient Romans won against Pyrhus, and Hannibal. The Germans man for man were better than the Soviets and they did win battles however if they kept winning battles the way they did they would lose the war, because the Soviets VASTLY outnumbered the Germans and had no reason to surrender since the best they could expect from Germany was slavery, and they were given resources by America.
>>5953944And forever every Soviet plane lost they built 3Every German loss they built 0.01 outdated 109 or wasted resources on a jet
>always at the wrong place, or at the wrong time >"b-but m-muh K/D ratio!!!"uhm no sweety, you just don't understand operational level of war :^)
>Muh K/D ratioAccording to Kirovisheev ~6.3 million were K.I.A, with another 500,000 missing. 555,000 died due to accidents, and 1.2 million died in POW camps, thus the large figure of ~8.8million Now taking into account that the Germans lost around 3 million soldiers on the eastern front, in addition the Bulgarians, Hungarians, Romanians, Italians, Finnish, and Baltic countries lost around 1.5 million total.Losing 6 million to the german 4.5 million is not a bad k/d ratio, especially considering most of these losses occurred in the beginning of the war, when the STAVKA was completely autistic.
>>5953994The SS were the worst of the German military lmao, they weren't professional soldiers. They were used for high risk operations specifically because they wanted to save casualties of the professional soldiers in the Wehrmacht. Jesus Christ did you actually think the SS were better than the Wehrmacht? Ahhahahahahahah
>>5954015wrong Germans made good on their losses in the East and even grew in number
>>5952493>undefeated in the fieldThe Soviets literally took their capital, how the fuck were they undefeated?
>>5953994>muh SSOh my, politically connected commanders were able to get reassigned to the easier front. >still got shitwhippedOh wow
>>5954024So Red Army took Berlin how?
>>5954052by defeating Germans? I don't see how that's contradictory to what I said Germans replaced their losses and even grew in number it wasn't enough
>>5954024>inb4 wikiI'm too lazy to find a novel for you
>>5954065Well you're wrong. Most of the veterans of the Wehrmacht were lost in 41 just trying to take Moscow. 6th army was created out of those that weren't turned into casualties and they were dead or captured by 42. The German Army in 43 was all green. Manufacturing increased but at a slower rate than the USSR
>>5953994>every major SS armored divison engaged and destroyed in the westThis is literally not true> Leibstandarte SS Adolf HitlerSurrendered in Berlin and Vienna to Soviets> Totenkopf, Wiking and HitlerjugendCrushed by Soviets in Hungary, fleed to surrender to Americans> Polizei Crushed in Pomerania by Soviets, fleed to surrender to Americans.> FrundsbergCrushed by Soviets in Saxony, fleed to Americans.I'm starting to see a pattern here, it's like these brave SS-men somehow knew what would the Russians do to them and desperately fleed to Americans.
>>5954103>most still got handed over to the SovietsKarma, shes a bitch
>>5952493>the eastern front was a cod matchnothing will unrape your grandma, hans.
>>5953747Glantz is the guy who ripped late Soviet estimates of casualties to shreds by bringing up and documenting entire campaigns that they simply ignored. From the Rzhev grinder to the first unsuccessful attempt at retaking Belarus he has never flinched from speaking truth to established Soviet/Russian power. I've been following this guy on and off for decades. Please provide a single source to back up your massive claims.
>>5953123Sarcastic green texting isn't going to fool us into thinking you're not crying your little bitch tears, wehraboo. Go jack off to company of heroes or pictures of girls in stalhelms you retarded fuck.
>>5954113It sure is Payback time soon
>>5952493Let me guess, you also think America won in vietnam?
>>5955751>h-haha gottem fuck the fascist pigsyou need to go back.
Ah, I see we are pretending to be retarded today.
>>5952493if the german army was undefeated in the field then how did they get pushed all the way back to Germany?
>>5956296but why would they need to retreat if they're never defeated
>>5956310They needed to reduce width of the front so they could send more soldiers west, where the real fighting was.
>>5956315Yes, and they had to assign 100% of their new panzer production to the West as we know.
>>5956458Because they obviously prioritized on beating the weakest enemy first.
>>5952493>When you win so hard your country gets split in half for 45 years
>>5953710This guy knows his stuff.
>>5952580>wipe out all German offensive capabilities in the East for the rest of the war>disaster for the Red Army
>>5952961>still fighting on their own soil in places in 1945.Where?
>>5953994>acting on the assumption that all the SS divisions were at their peak in June 1944 when the yanks turned upThe SS were much the same as the Wehrmacht by this point. manned by a steady stream of replacements rushed out without adequate training, ill-equipped, and undersupplied. It'd be nice if people could consider the actual state of the German forces in the late war instead of creating a mythos of the allies facing immense odds in the west. The allies struggled with a monumental set of advantages while the Germans defied immense odds.
>>5956766>cripple the red army tank for for no less than 14 months>soviet victory
>>5954103>>5954113All those divisions were already heavily depleted from Normandy and the Ardennnes, nice bait though
>>5952493hur durr, "i think tactical expertise counteracts operational, strategic, and polictal insanity/stupidity."the Wehrmacht was optimistic in its planning,STAVKA was pessimistic and acknowledged the incompetence at he tactical level, and compensated operationally.If you look at the war from 42 on, you see a Soviet army that is sound foundationally and simply waits until the German army is forced to overextend itself trying to break it.WW2 was won 65 years prior with the conscription reforms done by Alexander 2, which allowed the Soviets to form 40 armies from july to dec 1941.>>5956296strategic and operational defeat, if you win, you just get encircled.
>>5956978so, zerg rush is the thing
>>5956978Human waves are not a stragegy
>>5957126>muh human wavesRead a book nigger
>>5957173>pictured Hitler Youth ans Volksturm retreat after running out of ammuniton from mowing down barely armed Russian soliders while the SS panzer divisions are being raped in the west by an actual army
>>5957182Tell me why those panzer divisions were sent west in the first place
>>5957192To fight the real threat
>>5957182>lose 17 divsions destroyed and have 500,000 captured and paraded in Moscow. The Soviets were responsible for breaking of the Wehrmacht while the US and Britain destroyed the Germans logistics and tied down the Luftwaffe.
>>5956799>The allies struggled with a monumental set of advantages while the Germans defied immense odds.t. kraut
>>5952609Hmm let's compare what you said to this chart
>>5952493>>5952493>>5953937>>5953937https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Irving>"In his works, he argued that Adolf Hitler did not know of the extermination of Jews or, if he did, opposed it. Though Irving's revisionist views of World War II were never taken seriously by mainstream historians, he was once recognised for his knowledge of Nazi Germany and his ability to unearth new historical documents."Oh God...
>>5952493Why are there so many threads on this exact same topic today? We desperately need a mandatory limit on WW2 threads. Only 1 at a time.
>>5958187Its the same guy posting every thread anon
>>5958135hmm who would take the time to make this
>>5953965Was revealed for me during a dream.