Why did they neglect their army so much in the late 19th and early 20th century?
>>5950805Nobody could be arse to learn all the languages.
>>5950862Almost everybody knew german.R at least forward, shoot and retreat.
>>5950862Daily reminder that Austria-Hungary broke before it's army>>5950853This is the true answer
>>5950805Before the Great War, it was mostly a matter of money. Austrian commanders were competent at worst and generally on-par with their opponents. Austrian military culture was also very strong and ingrained in the upper classes. The government couldn't afford to continually upgrade the second largest army in Europe, which lead to some major humiliations. The French beat them in the Second War of Italian Independence due to having superior artillery, although the Austrians beat the armies of Sardinia-Piedmont several times. The Prussians beat the Austrians several times in the Seven Week's war due to their army-wide adoption of breech-loading rifles, compared to Austrian muzzle-loading rifles.During the Great War, Austria's problem was the exact opposite. Although her armies and soldiers were well-equipped and trained, the high command at the outset of the war was lacklustre, to say the least. von Hötzendorf especially stands out in his inability, although the Austrian commander on the Serbian front is definitely comparable. The major defeats of the army on the Eastern Front in 1914 and 1915 would almost certainly had not happened had a better commander been leading. In the naval arena, however, Austrian fleets performed admirably, considering the disparity in power.
>>5950805Just a little note: that map severy lack on showing the real rappresentation of italians in Dalmatia, where all the major cities (Zara and Ragusa, that for some reason it not show) were italians. They used a map created by AH which denied their existence for political reasons, as any italian-speaking majority zone was claimed by Italy. The empire actually started the forced migration of Slavs on dalmatian coast to weaken them, years before Yugoslavia was even created
>>5951003Fuck off terrone with your bullshit.
>>5950805Hungarians kept on messing with the fucking budget in Parliamentary sessions as leverage.Budget- like everything else in the dual monarchy- has to be approved by both the Imperial and Royal (aka Hungarian) Parliament. The whenever Hungarians in the Dual Monarchy feel like they aren't getting their way, they messed around with the appropriations, threatening it in order to get the Austrians' attention for whatever matters.
>>5951022Different anon, American, here. It's actually well known
>>5951003fuck off greasy wopyour country wouldn't exist if it weren't for daddy France
>>5951031No it isn't. Nothing he said was correct.
>>5951040800 years of Venetian rule made Italians or at least romance language speakers the majority in Dalmatian and istrian cities
>>5951052They weren't the majority, simply because the cities were inhabited by Croatians who continued to speak their native language even as Italian merchants and sailors settled in the city. In Trieste, the most populous and Italian littoral city, Italian speakers represented only 60.1% of the population in the city center, and 38.1% in the surrounding city and suburbs.
>>5951084When did that statistic come out?
>>59511101918. Here's the source name, copied directly: Spezialortsrepertorium der Oesterreichischen Laender. VII. Oesterreichisch-Illyrisches Kuestenland. Wien, 1918, Verlag der K.K. Hof- und Staatsdruckerei
>>5951152So after the Italian unification, so >>5951003 could be correct
>>5951168Perhaps, but I find it very unlikely, especially in areas south of Austria Proper. It's a lot of effort from a government that was never inclined to forcible move large groups of people.
>>5951187Here's a hint most cities in that area were majority Hungarian or German until the 1800s when slavs from the countryside moved to the cities en masse. I wouldn't be surprised if Austria encouraged it in Dalmatia because they used croats to successfully keep the Hungarians in check
>>5951202Most inland cities, yes, but along the Adriatic, the cities were primarily Croatian or Slovene with a large Italian minority, and some (roughly 5%) German speakers.
>>5951223Except a quick check of Wikipedia states otherwise. Slavs only becoming a majority until the 1700-1800s
>>5950805I know it's fiction, but how well does pic related depict junior officer military culture of the late A-H empire?
>>5951311Would you mind showing your source? I'd like to check it out myself.>>5951323I haven't read it yet myself, but if you want to learn more about Austro-Hungarian military I highly recommend Richard Bassett's For God and Kaiser
Post rare K.u.K.s
>>5951168Can't be correct since it's not true. Italians were no where a majority in Dalmatia. The only place where Italian actually had a big than usual presence was in Zadar and even then only a third of the population (but that would change after the war when Italians would become overwhelming majority of it).And no. Austria never moved people en mass anywhere. What little people she did move was usually German bureaucrats but considering Adriatic cities already had developed middle class, usually Italians filled such roles. Italian was the official language of region anyway.However following the rise of nationalism and unification of Italy and ensuing ethnic and class tensions between middle class Italians and more numerous lower class Croats, Austria did foster usage of Croatian by helping establish first schools in Croatian and making it equal with Italian.Shortly said Austria never moved anyone en masse. And even if she did want to, there wasn't a need for it since Croats already made up the majority or plurality of coastal towns and villages (except for Western Istria).
>>5951406>>5951343Zadar and Dubrovnikfor example. Go to there Wikipedia page. Also the county of zadar was only a third the city itself was majority Italian. Which is what I claimed. Never said the countryside was majority Italian
>>5950805because they had three armies: common army, landwehr, and honved. The latter two were 'national guard' armies of the two halves of the monarchy, with the honved being the hungarian one. because hungary had a great deal of power in the dual monarchy structure and were always afraid of vienna/the habsburgs gaining too much power (and therefore eroding budapest's power), they consistently shot down nearly every attempt to expand the common army. instead, hungary's budget got funneled into the honved, which drawing on only half of the monarchy's resources could never be an army to compete with the great powers in the first place.tl;dr yet another example of the perfidious magyar earning the treaty of trianon.
>>5951433While Dubrovnik has no statistics related to the proportion of Italian speakers as a part of the population, Zakar does have a sizable majority of Italians in the city (although not in the province as a whole). However, I'd argue that this is relatively minor, as Zakar was a city of only 11,500 or so, with minal importance as compared to larger cities in Dalmatia, Croatia, and the Littoral
>>5951008>>5951022>>5951003>>5951084Hello Ante>>5951152As i said, dont trust sources from an empire that was in that very year at war with Italy
>>5951514Cont.Ignore the third citation, i fucked upNow everyone take a look at the proposed reformation of the empire, promoted by the pro-slav and anti-italian prince and heir Franz FerdinandAs you can see, the proposed states followed the ethnic map i critized before, and for a very good reason: to favor the Serbo-Croats, the ethnicity promoted by Ferdinand. The empire consciously denied the existence of Zara and Ragusa Italians, to give those two cities to Croatia. Rijeka/Fiume was not denied, as there wasn even a large slavic component to claim as a majority, but unlike for example most of the german enclaves, the city was not marked as an Italian enclave, so the plan was to forcefully must have been to turn the city into a Slavic city as part of the ethnic state for Croats
>>5951514Yes that is why irredentist blogs are trustworthy sources.
>>5951648Plenty of WW2 Tito's partizans admitted that in the coastal cities Italians were the majority, but they denied that to justify their annexion to Jugoslavia. It's not unlikely at this point that AH did exactly the same before. I'm also gonna post a couple of sources about if i find them
>>5951556Fiume/rijeka was given to Hungary to be the official seaport of Hungary
>>5951846Bro dont mix the two maps: the one from the OP shows the historicall split between proper Austria and the Kingdom of Hungary in the dual monarchy, with the former comprised also of Croatia and Boemia. The borders in the second map instead are the one proposed for the never formed united states of Austria. There you can see Hungary was greatly reduced, and Fiume was part of the Croats state
>>5951863I was referring to real life not a proposal by dead man that wasn't liked
>>5951675>that in the coastal cities Italians were the majority,This is just false presenting. What partisans encountered were Zadar and Western Istrian towns were Italians were majority. Nowhere else (apart from Mali Lošinj) where they The majority like you like to imply.In fact, Dalmatians and Istrians were in partisans in higher numbers than Southern Slavs from other regions specifically because they have been subjected to Italianisation and colonialism from Italians. When knew the best just how much Italians were and weren't on the coastline.>It's not unlikely at this point that AH did exactly the same before.So we went from certain to maybe? Lol. Either way you're wrong.>if i find themLmao
>>5952075>1910 census This one even favours Italians as it checks primary language spoken not ethnicity.
>>5951406>>5952075Correct.Since no large migrations were noted that could've significally changed the proportion of italian population, and based on the older census from the city administrative booksmeans that somewhat reliable predictions can be made for demographic history in the region, Italians were indeed, not a majority since the arrival of the Croats after the great migrations.This is the language statistics form 1900 in kingdom of DalmatiaLanguage:>Croatian and Serbian: 565,276 (95,2%)>Italian: 15,279 (2,6%)>German: 2,306 (0,4%)>Total: 593,784This is the ethnic statistics from 1857 (earliest available official state record)Kingdom of Dalmatia had 415,628 inhabitants.>318,500 (76.5%) inhabitants were Croats, >77,500 (18.5%) were Serbs (including Dalmatian hinterland),>ca. 20,000 were Italian-speakers (5%).In the cities, the inhabitants were 71% Croat, 22% Italian and 7% Serb.sources: Statistische übersichten über die bevölkerung und den viehstand von Österreich nach der zählung vom 31. October 1857Proceedings with the International Scientific Group: Italian Administration in Croatian Countries and Exodus of Croats, Marino Manini, MUEven Istria, which was actively colonized by Venetians, didn't have Italian majority, pic related. Italians are just sour because they chimped out and lost the war,and got punished for it, kinda like Germans in Sudetenland. Had Italians actually had good relations with Croats and Slovenes, they would still be present here (all 20000 of them).Lets not forget that Italians gave Croats and Slovenes less authonomy and sometimes worse treatment then the Ethiopians. People in Istria and Dalmatia experienced fascism before anyone else,and now Italians are pretending that Slavs were the bad guys all along. At least we are in EU now together, a chance for a new beginning.
>>5952495No one claimed the Hinterland was Italian but that the cities were
>>5951433dubrovnik, you're going with DUBROVNIK! brain is clearly an organ you don't own.
>>5952610Yes it was called Ragusa and it contained a bunch of Italians
>>5952700speak italian =/= be italian
>>5952838Bunch is small amount of people
Bump for interest
>>5950862It really wasn't that big of a deal to have a multilingual army because everyone could get the basics and they had units for individual ethnicities so they could operate in full understanding.
>>5950805>>5950965>>5951152>>5951343>>5951485>>5951556Why are Austria-Hungary's borders so aesthetic?
>>5952075I like how well educated the tiny Polish minority is compared to the rest of the illiterate filth
>>5956015 see >>5951223
>>5951084>tfw my great-grandfather fought for both armies
>>5951003These cities were Italian colonies and would only cost Italy a shitton of money because they would become useless unless Italy also got the entire coast.
>>5956005Because it was an elegant empire from a more civilized age.
>>5950805too much ass fucking in the officer corp to be worried about trivial stuff like managing the army
>>5950805terminal decline of national authority
>>5950805>>5956235>wake up, feeling pretty good and refreshed>remember Austria-Hungary is lost and will never be restored>day immediately ruinedAlas that these evil days should be mine
>>5956266I feel you bro
>>5956298It's simply not fair. Fuck Wilson and fuck Magyars
>>5956235when did hungary (and slovakia) become so overwhelmingly catholic?
>>5956266Do not be sad that it is over.Be happy that it happened.
>>5956400If you added Sudtirol in Italy it would be perfect
>>5950805Hungary fucked everythingFunny, eternal reccurence. Mongols fucking shit up
ugh...imagine what could've been...
>>5956990Yes, Trentino was majority Italian at the time, as it is today.
>>5956990South Tyrol isn't marked Italian thereSouth Tyrol is the area I marked herewhat's marked Italian is Trentino
>>5957226What are natural borders?
>>5957387ethno-lingustic borders > "natural" borders
I'm a Pole and two of my great-great grandfathers were decorated officers in the Austro-Hungarian army, AMA
>>5957948Do you have any of their medals, or any photos of them?
>>5950805You have to remember, particularly for the Great War, the industrial ability of the nation was the decisive fact in it's military performance, alongside competent command.AH had a singularly incompetent command that crippled it's overall effectiveness, but good commanders lower on the chain held their own, as evidenced on the Italian front. More importantly, AH's administrative structure was incapable of matching the output of industrial might of say, Germany. The split into national industries/armies alone was a nightmare to navigate. The neglect in their army is less so a feature of the army as it's support structure being insufficient in the modern age.
>>5950862german was like english back then for peoplewhen i was a kid old people still considered german to be like english is today
Italians are awfully silent in this thread after getting btfod with facts and logic. Hmm, I wonder why
>>5957948Macie Internet w Galicji?
>>5958266Ethnicities can't change over ti...
>>5958864Who's saying that doesn't happen retard
>>5959005>who's saying that doesn't happenEveryone who disagrees with this >>5951003
>tfw no federalized Austria
>>5959187Austria is a federal republic
>>5956353Consider that in Hungary, and somewhat by extension Slovakia, denomination only mattered to the Austrians. Most of Eastern Hungary is still primarily Protestant, and in the rest of the country denominations are not really cared about, and catholics and protestants tend to just go to the same Church.As for Slovakia, they became Catholic in order to try and further separate themselves from Hungary.