Is this correct? Pretty big news imo
>>5764256It's made by Americans, so most likely not.
>>5764256Yes, it was just forced communism, but keeping them in camps so they could keep an eye on them and making sure they weren't participating in any counter-revolutionary activities. That being said, it was in the middle of nowhere in a barren hellscape because that's where it was isolated, and communists went by the doctrine those who do not work shall not eat, so for people who didn't want to work, it was forced labor, and doing as such was considered counter-revolutionary and subject to punishment.Considering most inmates were there because they didn't want to take part in communism and were counter-revolutionaries, quite a few of them were subject to forced labor (because these prisoners expect welfare prisons with free food) and punishment because they were traitorous subversives, but always with the hope of reformation. Nothing particularly wrong with living in a gulag if you're a happy communist except restrictions on travel, it being even shittier than the rest of commiedom, and you're stuck with a bunch of people that hate communism. If you hate communism then it's literally force labor camps and torture.
>>5764256>Source: The Stalin haters won’t believe any source Bodes well for your cause to change people’s attitude, is the account a Russian or Belarusian or something.
>>5764256>Do nothing wrong>Get sent to slave labor camp>Entire family sent to slave labor camp>Maximum sentence doesn't matter because they don't give you a uniform and you freeze to death in 2 yearsSign me right up senpai!
>>5764256>Source: "The Stalin Haters Won't Believe Any Source"absolutelydare I say itYeah, I think I'm gonna say itbased andoh should I say this part?Oh, forgive me if I indulge a little bitREDPILLEDMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
Grats on parroting 70 year old propaganda, a true freethinker you are.
>>5765343go back to whatever shithole you crawled out of to get here, newfag
This reads nearly the exact same as holocaust denial.Source:(((They))) won't believe any source.
>>5766320>Source: The stalin haters won't believe any sourceI keep forgetting people like this unironically exists.
>>5764256>Source: "The Stalin Haters Won't Believe Any Source"I don't believe it.
>>5764256>Source: The Stalin Haters Won't Believe Any Source
>>5767770>>5767761>>5766433>>5766320Use Soviet statistics as a source.>hahaha, gommie dumbass, of course they lied about everything even though those statistics were stop secret until 1991 and the Soviet government had no reason to lie to itself about itselfUse American PhD scholars like J Arch Getty (UCLA), Davies and Wheatcroft (Rutgers), Grover Furr (Montclair State University), etc, as a source.>hahaha, gommie dumbasses, those scholars are obviously jewish/masonic/jesuit/illuminati liars paid millions of $$$ by communist billionares to push Annunaki-NWO-Talmudic propagandaAnti-Communism is an unfalsifiable religion for the intellectually disabled.
>>5767848>the Soviet government had no reason to lie to itself about itselfIt did tho. If an inspector found a Kolhoz did not make enough grain at the end of a 5 year plan, he absolutely had reason to fudge the numbers a little
>>5767848What about first hand gulag accounts?
>>5767848>Communism is an unfalsifiable religion for the intellectually disabled.true and based
>>5764256I don't know but that sure is some convincing stuff
>>5767848But the uncovered statistics in the Soviet Archives absolutely DO reveal that Stalin was a cunt.
>>5767903refer to>Source: "The Stalin Haters Won't Believe Any Source"
>>5767903>But the uncovered statistics in the Soviet Archives absolutely DO reveal that Stalin was a cunt.>Don't post any of those uncovered statistics
Yes. Gulags are a complete meme.
>>5767955You won't bother to look them up. Tankies still pass around propoganda figures even though at this point the actual figures are known.As a taste though, the Kiev Medical inspectorate reported that some 4000 Ukranians had starved to death, the real number was revealed to be closer to 9000. This is fairly consistent across Ukraine.
>>5764280It was actually made by the Communist Party of Great Britain (Marxist-Leninist).
>>5767973>Stalin controlled the weather
>>5765375*in Heavy's voice* NO!
>>5764256Yes because gulags were re-education camps. They were not extermination camps, nobody served for life imprisonments and the death peantly was abolished in USSR.
>>5764256At least the neo-nazis are fun with their "But the swimming pools!" this just sounds delusional.
>>5768212You really are scum, one day you'll see this and hopefully repent vermin
>>5768276Or maybe you were huffing so much anti-communist propaganda, that anything that challenges it causes you to throw a fit.
>>5768284Kulaks deserved worse.
>>5768390Honestly, I’m not even a fascist, but I would love to be given the opportunity to “re-educate” a tankie.
>>5768434If you "Re-educate" you mean "Fuck raw" I'm with you. One of these days I'm gonna chain a tankie boi in my basement, consensually of course.
>>5768434>>5768478>get presented evidence>resort to threatswew
>tfw no nato globalist dom bf to monopolize the import of seed to my asshole
>>5764329>As long as you don't think its forced labour, it isn't.Peak tankie
>>5768511There's nothing wrong with forced labour, if it's for the betterment of society and isn't exploitative. Unlike American prison labour.
>>5768545Okay, but you sign up first and do the forced labour. Just to make sure you aren't trying to trick me. For society right?
>>5768545>license plates aren't for the betterment of society
>>5768553You were paid only somewhat reduced wages in gulag, though.
>>5768390>You're trying to steal my money>So I'll just burn all my money instead to defend itTHAT doesn't sound like propaganda AT ALLalso>kulaks are obligated to change their way of life to serve people who are not kulaksEither incentivize them adequately or respect their basic human rights you fucks
>>5768563Private ownership of land isn't a basic human right, though?
>>5767988Shut up, don't ruin his narrative
>>5768568I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not, but basically,The right to own property is a basic human right. That includes usage rights to land. So if you want to collectivize farms, you need to give the kulaks a reason to want to collectivize. In most cases this will be a financial incentive. So if you want kulaks to give up their small farms and start a big farm you might start by subsidizing big farms so that they would see the profit and make the change themselves. Alternatively you could buy up their land at above market value and sell large scale farming equipment at below market value (basically as a form of subsidy) so that they turn a profit from collectivizing.The moral of the story is you have no right to demand others live/work the way you want them to, that's slavery.
>>5768672Nah. Kill all landlords, abolish rentier-class. Common ownership of the means of production.
>>5768390So why do you hate food.
Genocide and forced labor and classicide are okay as long as it's people I don't like. Also the guy who did it has some pictures where he's smiling/handsome/being silly so it doesn't matter if he was an oppressive dictator that took away his own citizen's basic human rights
>>5764256Not exactly. Some of those are half truths: they occurred in certain types of penal settlements, or occurred after Stalin's death.
>>5768982>implying classicide is wrong and comparable to forced labor and genocide >hurr muh private property rights are being violated
>>5766292Came here to post this, good shit anon
>>5767848Even the official statistics record about a million deaths in the camps between the 1930s and Stalin's death IIRC. It wasn't evenly distributed throughout the camps though; the war years accounted for most deaths, and the deadliest camps were those in Kolyma and similar wastelands.
>>5764256ofcourse its a muslim touting a failed genocidal ideology...its like they are obsessed with it.
>>5768268>the death penalty was abolished in USSR.They had it, but after Stalin died I'm pretty sure they reduced its usage heavily.
>>5764256>implying you need walls or barbed wire when you're in the middle of siberia >you have to calculate russian age like dog years I mean I don't want to go to a soviet gulag.
>>5768992People with money should die because I said soAlso I can guarantee you're upper middle class
>>5768511>we should pay for prisoners to have free housing and 3 meals a day and full welfare for prisonersWhat the actual fuck is wrong with crappitalism
>>5764256Imagine falling for Soviet propaganda decades after the collapse of their state
>>5769017How do they have money if the state abolishes their property? The only thing that makes it classicide is they claim they have property rights to things that aren't there and absolutely counter revolutionary.
>>5764256Even if this is true (which it isn't) they were still places where political dissenters were sent. Stalinism is blatantly a system of hardcore thought-policing. A lot of tankies try to pussyfoot around this when speaking in liberal democracies but they know it's true, and they're just as slimy and autistic as stormfags.
>>5769024They worked the land and they are entitled to the product of their labor. "It's counter revolutionary" You do realize that this means absolutely nothing right? Some people don't want a catastrophic revolution that results in a world much worse than it is now. Saying "you're against my ideas" does not phase someone who doesn't agree with you. Also again, killing millions of people is okay as long as I don't like them
>>5769043Tankies have no problem with thought policing. The problem is you're confusing trots for tankies.
>>5769050>They worked the land and they are entitled to the product of their labor. >kulaks>working land
>>5764256>wages equal to common citizensthis one actually sounds true lmao
>>5769058They had to work the land originally to get enough money to buy more. And I still don't understand how any of this justifies genocide
>>5769071>kulaks inherit things>they as individuals earned the moneyStop being anti-individualist. You're the one pretending classicide is on the same level as genocide.
>>5769080"Technically you didn't work for it, your dad did and now you just do administrative things" hmm yeah that really justifies genocide god you're so smart
>>5767848>Arch Getty>Grover FurrL E L
List of "Tankies":-Hellen Keller, world-famous disabled activist-H.G. Wells, world-famous visionary and science fiction author-Paul Robeson, world-famous actor and folk singer-Elizabeth Gurley Flynn, founder of the ACLU-Henri Barbusse, world-famous French novelist and close friend of Albert Einstein-Bertolt Brecht, world-famous German playwright and author-Dalton Trumbo, well-known Hollywood director and cinematographer -Lillian Hellman, well-known playwright and authorThere was a time when virtually every educated person in the West who wasn't part of the ruling oligarchy sympathized with Communism. That's why the oligarchs had to launch McCarthyism and rewrite history to smear Stalin as a monster - it was the only way they could maintain their wealth and power.
>working class reactionaries deserved to suffer in gulags but didn't actually but one day will againon jeez here we go with horse shoe theory againalso what's the deal with so many "communists" on twitter being muslim browns
>>5764256All of that is hilarious considering you typically died within two years.
>>5769102>classicide is genocideWhat did it mean by this?>>5769193They stopped suffering once they stopped being reactionary.
>>5769133Virtually every educated person in the Soviet Union who wasn't part of the ruling oligarchy sympathized with libertarianism
>>5764256Based. Stalin was the most BASED and REDPILLED man that has ever walked on earth.
Most communists never lived under a communist dictatorship, they live all under liberal democracies
>>5769209It varied. Some were staunch communists. Others were socialists or social democrats but landed in hot water with authorities because they supported liberal democracy or other "anti-Soviet" ideas. Some, like the composer Dmitri Shostakovich, left famously ambiguous evidence of their political views.
>>5769274actually most communists live in China sweety :)>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_China#Members
>>5769209>Virtually every educated person in the Soviet Union who wasn't part of the ruling oligarchy sympathized with libertarianismImagine unironically believing this
>>5769209>libertanarismonly /pol/tards fed with anti-soivet propaganda would believe this
>>5769274yeah, when I think "re-education camp" I think "liberal democracy"
>>5769209libertarianism is the most brainlet ideology on the planet and if you sympathize with it you unironically belong in a labour camp for the rest of your life.
Stalin did nothing wrong. You literally can't prove me wrong. Kulaks deserved it btw
>>5769023kelsey bernerayposting this information for posterity
>>5769746he was a manlet
>>5769746>Stalin did nothing wrong. Well, yes, normative categories are crap.>You literally can't prove me wrong. Yes, but the statement is vacuous to apply to Stalin. Wrong as a category doesn't exist, it doesn't apply to Stalin in exactly the same way that it doesn't apply to anyone else.>Kulaks deserved it btwTotally agree.
>describes prisonGET FUCKED NAZI'S LMAO
Tell that to my grandpa's brother who died in a gulag building train tracks in the middle of fucking nowhere and being buried under them.I fucking hate commie symphatizers. My country was illegally occupied ( Lithuania), and half of my family were sent gulags just cause they had some property, so we were considered bourgeois and had to be dealt with. Third of my nation were sent to gulags for literally nothing, half of them never returned. You wouldn't tell the same to jews about concentration camps, cause nazi germany wasn't communism. But they were literally the same to my and my countrymen eyes. Fuck you.
>>5768268>nobody served for life imprisonments lol>death peantly was abolished in USSRBeing sent to gulag were pretty much death sentence. They had almost the same survival rates as an nazi concentration camp.
>>5768686>Nah. Kill all jews, abolish middle class. State ownership of means of productionLiterally the same as nazi Germany.
>>5764256yes, most of those I thought were common knowledge. what isn't common knowledge is that most prisoners were vory scum and deserved worse.
>>5770538>State ownership of means of production>nazi Germany
>>5770553>Vory scumFuck off. They were in regular prisons.Half of the deported were kids and mothers, were they vor v zakony as well?>deserved worse.I hope you would've lived back then so you would die in a gulag.
>>5770561Are you implying that it isn't true that in Germany most companies had full or partial control of means of production? Literally everything taken from jews were state property.
>>5770562Well my relatives who did live back then didn't die in gulag. Vory were in gulag, in fact that was significant to the "bitch wars". Do you have any source on half the deported people being kids and mothers? Sounds stupid combined with the also anti-soviet rhetoric that forced labour supposedly drove the economy.
>>5770610>Part of a series onPopulation transferin the Soviet UnionPoliciesDekulakization Evacuation Forced settlements GulagPeoplesAzerbaijanis from Armenia Balkars Chechens and Ingush Crimean Tatars Estonians Germans from Romania Greeks NKVD operation Ingrian Finns Kalmyks Koreans Lithuanians Meskhetian Turks Poles 1944–46 1955–59 Romanians Ukrainians from PolandOperationsJune deportation Nazi–Soviet population transfers Operation North Operation Osen Operation Priboi Operation Vistula Virgin Lands CampaignWWII POW laborPOW Administration Japanese Germans Hungarians RomaniansvteSoviet deportations from Lithuania were a series of 35 mass deportations carried out in Lithuania, a country that was occupied as a constituent socialist republic of the Soviet Union, in 1941 and 1945–1952. At least 130,000 people, 70% of them women and children, were forcibly transported to labor camps and other forced settlements in remote parts of the Soviet Union, particularly in the Irkutsk Oblast and Krasnoyarsk Krai. Among the deportees were about 4,500 Poles. These deportations do not include Lithuanian partisans or political prisoners (approximately 150,000 people) deported to Gulags (prison camps). Deportations of the civilians served a double purpose: repressing resistance to Sovietization policies in Lithuania and providing free labor in sparsely inhabited areas of the Soviet Union. Approximately 28,000 of Lithuanian deportees died in exile due to poor living conditions. After Stalin's death in 1953, the deportees were slowly and gradually released. The last deportees were released only in 1963. Some 60,000 managed to return to Lithuania, while 30,000 were prohibited from settling back in their homeland.Back then, Lithuania had less than a million people.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_deportations_from_Lithuania
Tankies are just as obnoxious as Holocaust deniers and I wish both would just fuck off to their containment boards instead of making us go through all the same motions thread after thread.
>>5770526Pole here. I share the same view. My great-grandfather was an officer in the army who fell into Soviet captivity and "mysteriously" stopped responding to letters from his family after a few months. Pretty clear what happened there. Fuck communists.
>>5770635>hehe human suffering is funny and justified when MY side does itgrow up
>>5770526>But they were literally the same to my and my countrymen eyes. So why did you all volunteer to kill jews in 1941-1944? Fucking nazi bootlicker.
>>5770626And it says a lot, when fucking Nazis are considered better choice than you. >The Soviets took control of political, economic, and cultural life in the three states. They rapidly implemented various sovietization policies: nationalization of private enterprises, land reform in preparation for collectivization, suppression of political, cultural, and religious organizations. Economic life was disrupted and standard of living decreased. Political activists and other people labeled as "enemy of the people" were arrested and imprisoned. In June 1941, some 17,000 Lithuanians were deported during the first deportation. Further repressions were prevented by Nazi invasion of the Soviet Union. Within a week Lithuania was under Nazi regime. At first the Germans were greeted as liberators from the oppressive Soviet rule. Even when the Lithuanians became disillusioned with the Nazi regime and organized resistance, notably the Supreme Committee for the Liberation of Lithuania, the Soviet Union remained "Public Enemy Number One.">>5770650>My family is intermixed with jews.Also, Lithuania is sixth on righteous among nations.And Lithuania never made ss legion, men refused to join. That's why later nazis began repression against Lithuanians, unlike Latvians and Estonians.
>>5770667Also, even when Lithuanians collaborated with nazis, it was mostly against Polish people. And there was a lot of bad blood between Lithuanians and Polish back then.
>>5770674also>Germany and the Soviet Union concluded the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact in 1939, dividing Eastern Europe into their respective spheres of influence. Not surprisingly, Lithuania was, at first, assigned to Germany. The Nazis went so far as to suggest a German–Lithuanian military alliance against Poland and promised to return the Vilnius Region, but Lithuania held to its policy of strict neutrality.
>>5764256>Admits she has no sourcesWew
>>5770674>its okay to be nazi if you're murdering poles.
>>5770740It's okay if same poles are slaughtering civilians in your territory (Armia Krajowa)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VKzsM-ygpIdoesn't it ever get old
>>5768390>only kulaks had food and livestockLol
>>5770748You've just justified soviet actions against Lithuania. Well done.
>>5770775Wow> armia krajowa slaughters lithuanian civilians>Germany offers revenge on the armia krajowaOh geez, such a monsters
>>5770783Not to mention, poles did it after Lithuanians refused alliance with Germany to attack Poland. See>>5770720
>>5770783Your only norm is ethno-national racism.You are fa.
>>5770824It's simple retaliation for uncalled agression.You reap what you sawAlso, even before the Germans came, Soviets had already have started deportations of Lithuanians, they just were cut short by German occupation shortly thereafter
Wow, those rights really helped people who arrived at an empty camp with no food or medical supplies in the middle of winter. The thing with gulags is that they weren't supposed to kill you but the people who were responsible just didn't give a shit about their prisoners.
>>5770832You've got from arguing that Lithuanians were equivocal between Soviets and Nazis, to being a fascist nationalist. Well done.
>>5770858Nah. There was Lithuanian soviet partisans as well. The thing is, both groups are minorities. In general, Lithuania never took a side in ww2. Lithuanian partisans fought both nazis and soviets.
>>5770667>Within a week Lithuania was under Nazi regime. At first the Germans were greeted as liberators from the oppressive Soviet rule.What a fucking propaganda.
>>5771050It really was like that
>>5771139the hell it wasn't. Maybe in Latvia, but not in Lithuania.
>>5770532Depends which one.
>>5770756They actually had most of it.
This is now a socialism pics thread
>>5771664Since you only needed to have 2 cows to be labeled as a Kulak, yes.
>>5768390>Stalin doesn't control the weather>Kulaks deserved worsecognitive dissonance like only a tankie can do
>>5767848I am (a leftcom) sympathetic to people trying to defend the legacy of the Eastern Bloc, but Grover "I HAVE YET TO FIND ONE CRIME THAT STALIN COMMITTED" Furr is not a good source. He is a good meme but that's it.
>>5771810You know you just got trolled by a tankie.Do better.
>>5771691>>5771715>>5771719>>5771722>>5771723>>5771726that's is not socialism but where fascist suvberting communist states from the inside
>>5771906If socialism is that weak to being subverted by fascists on the inside (80% of socialist countries apparently) then isn't it shit
>>5768563>respect their basic human rights you fucksyou mean like all the people they had working their feilds like fucking pesants and near slaves desu?
>>5767903Stalin was widely regarded as a cunt after Kruschev came to power, Stalin's popularity is relatively recent and the result of efforts by Putin's government, largely to justify autocratic policies, and like also as part of wanting to distance himself from Yeltsins complete rejection of the USSR, which failed horribly to unite Russians. Looking at polls on opinions on Stalin and his rule, it it primality the younger generations that like him, while most people in the 40+ (or some such) bracket really don't.>>57642561.7 million people still died in the gulags, and just below 800k executions, and 800k killed from forced resettlements, totalling roughly 3.3 million, this is disregarding the 5.5-5.6 million from starvation in 1932-33, this is according to the old Soviet archives. The Stalinist Terror and Bolshevik way of doing this was bad enough that calling each other comrades among civilians went out of style because it simply had too many negative emotions related to it. Still a far cry from the estimated 20 million from before the fall of the USSR. The fall of the USSR also caused roughly 2-3 million premature deaths, primarily from starvation, freezing, untreated disease, because the system in place to prevent this had largely disappeared. Suicides and substance abuse, both skyrocketed after the USSR as well, and the average life expetency of a Russian man dropped to 53 at its worst. All in all, the economic collapse in the 90s was actually worse than the Great Depression, but the USSR was starting to get in trouble as the Soviet government started to become increasingly unable fullfill their half of the social contract throughout the 80s, as well as slowly losing more and more control of the "planned" economy. It was not uncommon to have to wait 10 years for a new car or house. Yes, they queued even for that, just not so much in the physical sense. 60-70s good times though, good living standards and less forceful government.
>>5768490What evidence was presented? Saying words is not evidence.
>>5766292specifying pages is is for nerds, cite the whole fucking booki only wish i was as brave as Wittgenstein.
>>5767848There were Leftie scholars believing Soviet Sources verbatim until the Fall of the Berlin Wall. Which came to them as a surprise because of it...
>>5768390>Be Bolshies>Be tiny minority in Russia>Representing a small section of the working class>Those peasants there, they greedy>Make them collectivize and shit. It'll totally improve things. >Oh shit, they don't like like>Oh shit, we destroyed our productive agricultural base in our pursuit of utopia>Oh shit, there IS NO BREAD
>>5773549Scissors crisis.Read something.
>>5773549You forgot>Let us continue exporting grain)
>>5773554I have you Commie fuck. Russia, while comparatively backwards, was nonetheless on the road to industrialization, and was increasingly its agricultural productivity in the decades before the revolution. Yet, you idiots gutted the Empire, and led to an utterly ineffectual failure in collective agriculture. Shit got so bad that the USSR often had to import large stocks of grain by the '70s...https://www.nytimes.com/1979/12/12/archives/soviet-imports-of-grain-rising.html
>>5773570>Yet, you idiotsMate, I'd be in a ditch long before '21. With equal chances of the bullet being Bolshevik and white. I'm a completely different kind of idiot.>and was increasingly its agricultural productivity in the decades before the revolution. Yes, indeed it was.>and led to an utterly ineffectual failure in collective agriculture.That's not the scissors crisis. Sit down and actually read something. You'll find that reading about the reasons for the scissors crisis and the Soviet response heightens your offended reaction. But you'll also see why the fantasy of a continued Bukharinite NEP was incompatible with continued party rule and/or industrialisation.
>>5773540The majority of leftists didn't.
>>5771947Or maybe fascists and their ilk are just assholes. Given the track record of fascism, I'd say that's the case.
>>5771906>that's not socialism, but where [socialists] are subverting [socialist states] from the insideWhat did he mean by this?
>>5773667>fascism is socialism
>>5773669>the only type of socialism is marxist socialism
>>5771964>Near slave Vs>Actual slaveAnd you think you have the moral high ground
>>5773689It isn't, but fascism isn't socialism.
>>5773654Then why would I want to subscribe to a political ideology weak enough to be open to fascist subversion with a near 100% success rate? You've convinced me, my friend. Socialism is dumb!
>>5769133>There was a time when virtually every educated person in the West who wasn't part of the ruling oligarchy sympathized with Communism.These same educated people then tried to pretend that HUAC and McCarthy were accusing innocent people of being communists, and pretend that there was no subversion or treason going on. They also went on to pretend that they were never tankies to preserve their legitimacy in the face of the collapse of the soviet union, and to pretend that they weren't actively working to undermine all sorts of pillars of western capitalist civilization.Pol Pot really had the right idea about murdering the creative classes, he just went a little too far.
>>5771715>khmer rougeexplain how ideologically it was communist when it's ideology seems far closer to nazism than soviet or chinese communism.IE: "back to the glorious (imaginary) past", vs "better living through 'scientific' central planning technology, etc".
>>5769023Soviet propaganda actually vilified Stalin you fucking retard. Khrushchev immediately began telling lies about Stalin after his death which he forced everyone to accept at gunpoint