Here are your floor joists bro.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1UtRnGn5hc
>>1678103obvious bait but even accounting for orentation that makes me uneasy. presumably they will get something in the middle to brace when its in.i have driven past these things on a trailer and the straps holding them down at the end caused them to bow in the center. a whole stack of them 5 or 6 high, maybe 2 ft between the straps and the block it was sitting on. wild.
>>1678103hey guy they are mounted in the vertical position and braced in the middle.>what is a web?
Yup... Strong in the vertical orientation, like a wet noodle in other direction.
>>1678232Just post everyday craftsman's video you cunt
>>1678148Bending stress resistance is measure by base* (height^3)/12 and some coefficients. Those tall ass joists ain't bending at all as long as they dont buckle.
>>1678103Anyone who defends the OP image is a fool. While it isn't about lateral stresses for a floor joist, the material in which it is made plays extremely importance on its longevity. The riser section of those floor joists are made from wood chips that are glued/epoxied together. They will never last as long as metal, concrete/cement, or even cheap solid pine lumber. God forbid they EVER get wet or condensate for any reason or duration at all.Essentially, such materials are meant strictly for contractors who want to spend as little money as possible and build as fast as possible in order to move onto the next paying job. They do this with as little care for the longevity of the structure as they can get by while still reaching code (code that they lobbied for so they can use cheaper disreputable building materials). These also exist because lumber companies, who own piles of wood chips, can actually get more money out of them in this manner in a shorter amount of time than seasonally selling it for landscaping mulch.
>>1678103no thank youi'll take solid timber please
>>1678678it is clearly bending under its own weightbending stress will weaken around glue joints and cause problems. check installation instructions.deflection like this in stitu will reduce the load capacity of the floor above.it will become a nuisance or possibly a problem if the clear span above is affected.
>>1678103I hate those pieces of shit.Will never trust them. Open steel web truss-joists are my preferred Go-To for man made joist options, but have to be ordered to spec, unlike the TJM's that mexican'ts can cut up on site.
>>1678747It's bending because it has almost no bend resistance along that axis. A truss isn't designed to take any force along the width of it, and so it will deflect enormously if loaded this way. Once installed with all the load on the top, the deflection will be less than any solid wood beam of the same weight.>>1678783This looks silly. I don't know the actual specs on each component, but is seems to me like the weak point will be the tensile strength of the naturally cut wood used on the bottom chord. I don't know why you'd not use a steel cable instead. Less weight and less yield under load. It's basically the most ideal use of steel there is. Cost can't be the issue, since you'd need shockingly little steel to match that wood. I wouldn't think you'd need a solid bottom chord, since using it for support is generally a bad idea, even if you set it on a connection.
>>1678747Like the other guy said. This isn't being loaded correctly, imagine swapping base and width in the equation I put up previously.
>>1678988>I don't know why you'd not use a steel cable instead.Has a wood bottom bottom to hang the drywall ceiling to, you dummy.
>>1678702>The riser section of those floor joists are made from wood chips that are glued/epoxied together.There are I-joists which use LVL as the web, which is basically modernized plywood. That should suffer far less from irreversible swelling than OSB.
>>1679054Ah, I was only thinking this would be used commercially. I kept thinking of open ceilings with no finishing.
>>1678103 Some new three story town houses went up in my neighbour with these. They also installed plastic PEX water pipe. I think one water leak and the whole building will be lost.
>>1679136That stuff is more vulnerable to water, but it still takes days of being damp to seriously degrade. I wouldn't use it anywhere that sees flooding, but in some areas it's fine, and provides a sturdier floor.
>>1679136Pex is fine when done properly.
>>1679145It's actually better in general. It's easier to do, which means its harder to fuck up, the couplings are actually stronger than soldered joints, they won't pinhole like copper, they're more resistant to water hammer, they won't break when they freeze, it's cheaper, and it's easier to repair. There is basically no reason to use copper anymore.
>>1679150Jokes on you, my house has steel pipes!
>>1679145>>1679150Imagine drinking from plastic.
>>1679155>>1679157>Stable long chain hydrocarbons which don't degrade in the presence of water and aren't bioactive anyway.vs.>Metals which are absorbed into the body, slowly dissolve in water, and have known toxic effects.Hmm. Just because it's always been done one way doesn't mean that's the best way.
>>1679079Shill your poison somewhere else, kid.
>>1679162Both are toxic
>>1679260Source please. PET and PEX are essentially not bioactive, and they aren't dissolved by water at all, so you won't get more than parts per trillion of it in your water from piping.
>>1678747>>1678992you two are fucking mongoloids. i'm not going to just repeat what i already said go read it again.
>>1678747>>1678988>>1678992how they are carrying it=this kills the crab
>>1679307Oh, you're saying that the bend exceeds the glue's strength? The way they're carrying it isn't the best, but it's adequate to prevent damage. You wouldn't want to carry a couple stacked like that, or you'd risk damaging the bottom, but a single will be fine. The force is also much less because it's at an angle, not flat. They should be lifting from the bottom and keeping it upright, but I wouldn't expect any real damage from this.
>>1679278Not true, please stop lying.
>>1678783>i'd like my floor to squeak in 10,000 places, please
>>1679734You must provide evidence for outlandish claims. PEX has been deemed safe by the FDA. Do you have evidence of it causing harm, or are you just knee jerking against something you don't understand?
>>1679748>deemed safe by the FDAThat doesn’t inspire much confidence.
>>1679751More confidence than pic related, which is what you're giving. I could give you MANY more sources which show PEX is completely safe, even going into scientific literature about the molecular structure and biological interactions, but I only need one to btfo your baseless claim.
>>1679751>>1679734>>1679260>>1679157PEX has been in general use since the 1970's in Europe and since the 1980's in USA/Canada, and has passed all tests ever thrown at it by dozens of nanny-state Governments. You lot going to try and argue that whatever crackpot blog you've gotten your info from is more reliable than tens of thousands of experts from around a couple dozen countries over the span of 40+ years of real world use and application of PEX?
>>1679751I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that it inspires more confidence than an unsubstantiated claim by an anonymous poster on a Perivian quipu forum.
>>1679774going. Thought burning lead in gasoline was a great idea for 80s years.
>>1679823bad example because that ended up being a case study in consumer protection.
>>1678103pussies dont even use chad concrete, that being said essential craftsman is a total dude
>>1679827https://www.classaction.org/pex-plumbing-lawsuitAt best 30-60 days of storage in uv. You have no way to know if the pex you just installed was stored properly or if it's gonna start leaking in 5 years.>phen-phen>zofran for pregnant women>thalidomide>cigarettes>asbestos>roundup>DDT (or not rather, it would have saved lives if we could have kept it to manage mosquitos)Though I'm totally sure the oligarchs have learned their lesson and got your back on this senpai.
>>1679841>phen phenThere was reason to believe this could be harmful, but people took it anyway because vanity.>zofranhttps://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/birthdefects/features/kf-ondansetron-and-birth-defects.html>taking ondansetron during early pregnancy did not appear to increase the chance of having a baby with a birth defect. >thalidomideThis happened before the FDA started requiring comprehensive testing of drugs.>CigarettesThese were and are popular because they're addictive. Even when people know they'll kill you, they smoke anyway. Recreational drugs do that.>AsbestosIs fine in many forms. You essentially need to breathe asbestos dust for hours to be harmed, and you have to do that a dozen times before you're actually fucked. The people who died from it are mainly those who worked in mines, or factories using it to manufacture products.>RoundupEnormous nothingburger. There is no evidence that correctly diluted glyphosate is harmful unless you're straight up drinking it. If you're bathing in the concentrated form all day, you might have some problems. You'd have a ton of problems if you were getting full strength bleach all over yourself all the time, but that doesn't mean you're going to die after bleaching your clothes.>DDTThis was a huge shame since it arguably did more good than harm. Changing the ways it was used could have solved most of the drawbacks while keeping most of the benefits. But chicken little retards love to cry.Your list is dumb and so are you. Even if they were all what you believe they are, that doesn't suddenly mean PEX is harmful. It's been used for decades with no evidence of being harmful. Meanwhile we know for a fact that acidic water + copper pipe can lead to copper poisoning, and lead solder (which is still in toolkits the world over) puts lead in your water, and we know lead bioaccumulates and causes violent tendencies. You can blow me with your no evidence fallacious horse shit. PEX is better than copper. Deal with it.
>>1679278Moving water corrodes everything it touches. This is a fundamental fact of life. Would you rather be getting plastic particles in your water, or metal? Which degrades faster?These kind of questions you should answer yourself, and not believe everything you read.>parts per trillion>aren't dissolved by water at allI'm gonna guess you didn't measure this yourself with your made in a third world country pex bought at the local store.
>>1678103You're an idiot. TJI's are stronger than solid wood joists of the same dimension.
>>1678103steel would do that, solid wood would do that you fucking numbskull.
>>1680048>Would you rather be getting plastic particles in your water, or metal?Plastic by a fucking landslide
>>1680048>I'm gonna guess you didn't measure this yourselfnot him, but actually i measure that shit every day. i work with ultrapure water systems in the semiconductor industry and everything is either plastic tubing or electropolished stainless. the amount of leachates are below the detection level of some of the most advanced instruments on the market. so, eat shit.
>>1680066Are they testing for estrogen?
>>1680048>Moving water corrodes everything it touchesWRONG. Water does not dissolve PEX, which is much stronger than PET, another plastic water doesn't dissolve. Any oxygen or acidity in the water will also not dissolve the plastic. It's stupidly durable in this use case.>Which degrades faster?Metal. By a ludicrous landslide. Water carries oxygen, and oxygen attacks copper and iron like mad. Unless your piping is stainless steel, it's being oxidized and carried into solution.>I'm gonna guess you didn't measure this yourselfI don't need to, because there are published specifications, and water system components are well regulated, so I know the materials meet the specs. Finally, water can be trivially tested if you're worried. You are moving the goal posts, trying to make me defend myself further. This is the last time I indulge you. Provide the evidence to support your claims, or be forever btfo.>>1680084Oh. This meme. Did you know that milk, eggs, and meat all contains estrogen and other hormones? Animal estrogen works just fine on humans, which is why pregnant mare urine (pre arin) is used to treat menopause. We're not Jenga towers of chemicals, ready to collapse at any moment with a tiny push. Our bodies manages hormones just fine unless you introduce a huge amount of them. The estrogen mimic found in water bottles during peak BPA hysteria was low level, and roughly 0.01% as potent as actual estrogen. To this day, nobody can conclusively say BPA used in products is harmful at all. Just lots of hysterical people talking about "chemicals".
>>1680066>electropolished stainlessI sometimes work on electropolished stainless for pharmaceutical stuff, usually polished to 15 micro-inch roughness or better. What kind of finish specs do semiconductor industry water lines typically have?
>>1679136Nothing wrong with pex, boomer
>>1679136I've no problem with PEX. entire house is plumbed with it and it's the only reason my pipes haven't burst multiple times over, mainly thanks to the crappy insulation in this house.Plus once you get the right tools together plumbing with pex takes like 1/10th the time it would with even PVC, let along copper or steel.
>>1679774>You lot going to try and argue that whatever crackpot blog you've gotten your info from is more reliable than tens of thousands of experts from around a couple dozen countries over the span of 40+ years of real world use and application of PEX?>experts
>>1680328Sick argument, give it again sometime.
>>1679136why do americans make cardboard houses?
>>1681189Imagine how dull and empty your life would be if we weren't doing [literally anything] for you to obsess over 24/7. Be grateful.
>>1679774to be fair if the nanny state yuropoors allow them they're probably okay and muslim friendly too!
>>1681221Imagine making fun of Europeans for their muslim problem when you have been sucking on the nig dick since the 19th century.
This thread is like reading a pex promotional ad
>>1681393Still waiting for those real arguments. I like PEX because it's cheap, and it's not an enormous pain in the ass to run. Despite all the FUD, I've seen zero evidence showing there's anything wrong with it. Fucking boomers and their copper, I swear.
>>1681411I'm autistic, and I like copper. I take normal pipe (hardened) anneal it with torch and bend. No fitting. Rock solid.Though I live in shithole without codes. Is it legal in US to bend hard copper pipe?
>>1681413I've never seen it used, but I can't see why not. Just realize that you're thinning out the exterior radius when you bend, and copper likes to pinhole. If you're in a cold climate, you should anneal after bending as well. Copper work hardens so goddamn fast, the hard bend will be more prone to splitting if your pipes freeze.Also this is way more work than PEX for an inferior result at greater expenses. Copper should really be deprecated as a plumbing material. Brass in valves and such is still fine, however.
>>1681417>Just realize that you're thinning out the exterior radius when you bend,I don't think it is that important.> and copper likes to pinhole. After 50 or so years, or after someone like Louis Rossmann, who uses too much of flux, and never deburred insides. >If you're in a cold climate, you should anneal after bending as well. Copper work hardens so goddamn fast, the hard bend will be more prone to splitting if your pipes freeze.Nah, better get insulation if it gets freezing. Annealed pipe would harden after couple water hammers. >Also this is way more work than PEX for an inferior result at greater expenses. Copper should really be deprecated as a plumbing material.I don't trust any sort of plastic.PP? Becomes brittle as fuck after 10 years.PVC? Even faster.Polyethylene? I had only with PEX-AL and HDPE, and they were fine. Can't say anything about next 20 years though. As for copper, it is fine. Shit is expensive though.
>>1679774And those same nanny-state governments allow the widespread use of BPA in food products, despite the fact that it causes epigenetic changes resulting in a significantly higher risk of autism.Nanny doesn't know everything.
>>1681506PEX doesn't have BPA in it. Also, autism is caused by higher levels of estrogen in expectant mothers. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/07/190729094538.htmso it's women that cause autism, not plastic.
>>1681426It's important depending on your water quality. Even slightly acidic water eats copper, and every mil you have is time before a failure. I've had pinhole leaks in walls. Shit is not fun.>get insulation if it gets freezingI'm probably projecting my climate. It gets to -15C and stays there for a couple months. A power failure carries a great risk of freezing plumbing. If I'm expecting a storm and going away, I'll drain the pipes (or I would, before going PEX), but I've been caught before. If your climate isn't like this, then it's not problem.>water hammersYou shouldn't be getting these.>I don't trust any sort of plastic.PEX has been around for a while now, and it's more reliable than copper in almost every case. The only time copper is better is if the pipe is exposed to direct sunlight, but you can just sheath the PEX. Copper has a long history of being a pain in the ass. It's not better just because it came first.
>>1680084We test for anything that isn’t an H2O molecule. The water is so pure that it’s classified as an industrial solvent and would leach the minerals from your body if you drank it.
I'm amazed at the Confidence in ones own stupidity here...
>>1681522>It's important depending on your water quality. Even slightly acidic water eats copper, and every mil you have is time before a failure. I've had pinhole leaks in walls. Shit is not fun.I have based water in my shithole, so copper is fine.Plastics should be better with aggressive chemicals, still I don't understand why PP and PVC get brittle over time real fast. >You shouldn't be getting these.Somebody is too cheap for fittings, and you want me to install water hammer extinguisher things? They expensive. Nonono. >It gets to -15C and stays there for a couple months. It gets up to -20C there. Though, all pipes are deep in the ground, so it is not a problem. But. If you forget to turn off the water during freezing, you will have problems with any pipe. >PEX has been around for a while nowTrue. As I said, PEX-AL is pretty good. 20 years, no problems yet.>and it's more reliable than copper in almost every case. Can't say this yet, but it is good enough already. Though I hate working with PEX fittings. Every time I do them, I have to redo, no matter which type of fitting I used. Either I need better tools, or better hands. I don't know.>It's not better just because it came first.You haven't dealt with steel pipes I guess.BTW, why annealed copper like on AC isn't used for water?
>>1681654PP and PVC get embrittled by UV exposure and from loss of their plasticizers. PET and PEX don't need plasticizers, but they are degraded by UV. You can get coated PEX, or just sheath it to prevent damage when exposed to sunlight.>They expensiveThey're like $15...Still somewhat expensive for what it is, I agree. Small ones are nothing more than a section of pipe, closed at one end, with a little piston sitting inside.>Either I need better toolsIt's this. Cheap PEX tools aren't worth shit.>steel pipespls no rusty water pipes.>annealed copper like on ACMy guess is if you sold soft copper pipe at water moving diameters, norman would kink it every time and get pissy.
>>1681705>PP and PVC get embrittled by UV exposure and from loss of their plasticizersI don't think there is much UV in the wall.
>>1681724There isn't, but the plasticizer slowly leeches out and leaves behind brittle plastic.
>>1681742So, it also leaches in water? How those are even legal?
>>1681759The plasticizers are generally organic esters, some are more dangerous than others. The ones used in water pipes are higher molecular weight and shouldn't migrate out as quickly, but I still don't trust PVC water pipe at all. PEX doesn't need plasticizers, so there's nothing to leach. Just long PET chains with cross links for increased durability. PVC is for wastewater only imo.
>>1681791ABS vs PVC.What is better.
>>1681814ABS is more brittle, but also more geometrically stable as a working material. Joining ABS is easier than PVC since you don't need primer. ABS doesn't have any plasticizers like PVC has, and it doesn't produce chlorine compounds when burned. Most sewage piping is ABS, but as far as I can tell it's never used for water supply. I'm not sure why though. I'd trust it more than PVC by a lot, except it will definitely crack if frozen with water inside.
>argue PEX vs. copper vs. PVC>Main waterline is steel or copper>City waterlines are iron, steel or lead
>>1681876>Main waterline is steel or copper>City waterlines are iron, steel or leadIn my shithole they are using more and more HDPE water pipes for mains.In past they were using steel. Never copper, because in soviet union copper gets stolen. Never lead too, since we got water supply way way after everyone else.
>>1680048>Which degrades faster?METALNigger do you even galvanic corrosion?
>>1680084>Are they testing for estrogen?The plastics that can be dissolved to produce estrogenic compounds are: Polycarbonate, Polyethylene, Polyester, Polypropylene, Poly Lactic Acid, and Polystyrene.But in order to get the estrogenic contents to leach out you need to have them interact with acids above a certain temperature and for a certain timeframe. This is why they are of concern for FOOD CONTAINERS which experience frequent heating and cooling cycles and interact with acidic foods.Notice how POLYETHYLENE isn't includes in that list, nor are Nylon or PVDF. Even if you were to be a plumbing snob and insist that your pipes all be copper in your walls, unless you personally installed your refrigerator and dish washer the water lines running to those tend to be Nylon. And the internal components for both will include PVDF or Nylon.The water you get out of the dispenser on your fridge and every refrigerated drinking fountain installed anywhere has Nylon interacting with the water running through it.
>>1681876The joke is most certainly on you.I draw my water from a deep well that gives perfect, delicious water.
>>1681979Stop connecting steel pipe to copper ones.