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>start reading Uncanny X-men with Giant Size
>Somewhat endure it up to Phoenix Saga
>It's actually shit
>Suddenly after Jean died and Cyclops left it becomes great
>Brood saga is fucking amazing
>Then slowly it becomes worse and worse
I just can't read it anymore. Marauders are lame, Rachel tries to murder villains every issue, Wolverine almost kills Rachel and forgiven next issue. It is supposed to be one of the best capeshit runs, will it get better later? I'm just afraid how worse could it get with Dazzler and the luck guy.
>>
>>107008659
This was my experience exactly. I got a lot of fun out of the early issues but I figured the Trial of Magneto was a good high note to end on. It was just getting too convoluted and shitty.
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>>107008786
I feel like Xavier surviving at the end of the trial made Magneto becoming the mentor of the team much less impactful
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I'm a huge fan of "punk" era but holy shit is it it meandering and over written and up it's own ass with the characters. The truth is the New Mutants killed the book. Claremont was more interested in that than the X-Men and it just didn't have the same spark outside of the run with Sienkiewicz art.
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>>107008659
>peak is when Carol is on the roster
Every time, every team.
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>>107008963
Well she is ok when goes full murder hobo
>>
I guess this is as good a place to ask as any, is early X-Factor worth reading?
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>>107009394
Not really. It feels like a cash in and Simonson's mediocre writing does nothing to help. Another pointless product of late 80's / early 90's X-Mania. That's aside from the infamous retcons which make it even worse..
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>>107009394
X-Factor is bad, it's dragging my x-reading because when it's X-Factor turn I just don't wanna read. But 2 important things happened in the book already:
>first Apocalypse
>Angel becoming Archangel
I'm already skipping Alpha Flight, any annual issue, Wolverine solo book, and some minor stuff.
Can anyone give me a quick rundown of the X-Factor book, so I can skip it as well?

>>107008883
New Mutants is being very good so far and became my favorite X-Book, but I agree that the UXM book got "less good". I'm around the first Genosha appearance and things are getting back on track. But I dislike the roster on the book around that time. I can't stand Dazzler and Longshot.
Also, I saved that cover to make a poster. I love Colossus, especially when he goes berserker.
What do you think about Excalibur?
>>
>>107010025
Is it just me or new mutants feels crowded? Dani, Sam amd Iliana are the only characters who get a lot of attention, while Rahne or Sunspot never really develop.
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>>107008659
This. Second Cockrum through Paul Smith is best UXM era.
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>tfw this is your favorite era and people are shitting on it

oh well, plebs gonna pleb

>>107009394

Not until Louise Simonson starts writing and fixes the book
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>>107011028
Rachel is the epitome of wasted potential tho. Her whole character is either being mind controlled or trying to kill someone. I mean really, she tried killing black mutant hater dude only to be told by Magneto to fuck off, then she tried to kill Beyonder and all life in the universe only to be told to fuck off, but bitch never learns her lesson and tries to kill Selene only to be gutted by Wolverine. And i don't get what was the meaning of giving her Phoenix powers, it's like they delibirately stepped in the same trap they did with Jean.
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>>107008659
When I was reading the whole thing I remember that at that point I started enjoying X-Factor more than Uncanny X-Men. I enjoyed the Australia era and unironically LOVE Inferno.

After Inferno I think that only X-Tinction Agenda is fun.
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>>107009394
I think it is, at least once Louise Simonson becomes the writer and starts trying to fix the whole mess that editorial made.
>>
I'll say it now, I didn't like X-Men until Rogue joined.
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Can someone pls give a TL;DR on the X-Factor Volume 1?

>>107010808
That's not how I feel. Everyone had issues that focused on them. Sunspot even had a mini with Warlock called Fallen Angels.
Rahne never really was the center of attention but her relationship with the other teammates was always well defined in the book. And everyone has a very specific characterization. Like, even Cypher and his internal struggle for having a shit power and how he starts getting careless about fusing with Warlock so he don't feel so useless. Also, Sunspot will be important later in the story where they travel to the Brazilian Rainforest.

>>107011386
> I started enjoying X-Factor
Does it get good? I'm 32 issues in and few issues were good. And Cyclops and Jean act out of character all the time. Jean came to the point where she trashes Maddie in the whole "lost baby/runaway dad Scott" situation when Scott is clearly the one at faults. Editors want Jean back, ok, but there were other ways to make Scott get back to "work". X-Factor fucked Scott's character really good. And that hit hard for me for I started reading X-Men because of the Rightclops reading recs image.
>>
It didn't start getting really bad for me until after Mutant Massacre. The new team just never really gelled for me, never really came around to liking Longshot or Psylocke, so I just kinda lost interest.
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>>107009394
All of it's worth reading. Even the shitty first five issues by Layton, as a lot of character stuff happens that sets up the Godly Simonson run.

In particular:

#1-6 is basically first Apocalypse/Alliance of Evil arc

#7 is filler

#8-9 is X-Factor Vs Freedom Force/first Skids

#10 is Mutant Massacre with Thor #373-374 and Power Pack #27 as tie-ins.

#11-16 is fall out from Mutant Massacre, start of the Twelve storyline, setting up Maddie showing up in Uncanny X-Men, Boomer joining the team/Simonson revamping Vanisher into a New Wave loving Fagin type, and Angel losing his wings/"killing himself".

#17-26 resolves all of the major subplots up to this point save for Maddie/Scott/Jean with Cameron Hodge being revealed to be a villain, the return of Boomer (written out briefly for Fallen Angels), first Rictor and the Horsemen of the Apocalypse, and the big Apocalypse/Angel showdown as Angel returns as Archangel.

#27-33 basically introduce Infectia/return Beast to furry mode, wrap up Rusty Collins' arc, introduce Ship, and build up to Inferno.

#34 is the big Cameron Hodge/Archangel showdown
>>
>>107012766

#35 introduces Orphan Maker and Nanny

#36-39 is Inferno (crosses over with UXM #239-243)

#40 is Rob Liefeld as guest penciller and gives Nanny and Orphan Maker's origin

#41-42 are utterly skippable as Louise had to write a story to pay off the contest ran by Marvel to let fans create a mutant character that ran during Fall of the Mutants. The character created was Alchemy, the kid who died in Death of X helping the X-Men stop the Inhuman's mutant murdering terrigan cloud.

#43-50 is Judgement War; a massive space opera storyline which has only been reprinted in B&W and kind of underrated. #47 is a filler issue (Archangel solo story set before Judgement War) and #49-50 has Louis Simonson giving John Byrne a giant middle finger by way of having Apocalypse shit all over Loki and the Acts of Vengeance storyline, when Loki tries (and fails) to recruit Apocalypse to kill the X-Men for him.

#51-59 are a bit of a mess. Mutant Wars was supposed to happen and Jean Grey would leave X-Factor and join the X-Men, while Colossus would replace her. As it stands, the Sabretooth arc and the Ravens arc are pretty decent but everything else is pretty lame. Though there is a Peter David fill-in issue that brings back Mesmero and Infectia, which basically exists to bring back Vera (Beast's od girlfriend who Layton brought back but was dropped from the series when Simonson took over).

#60-62 is Xtinction Agenda (crosses over with UXM #270-272 and New Mutants #95-97)

#63-64 is Simonson's swan song as we find out Iceman's new girlfriend has family who are cyborg samurai type mad scientists and want her to marry one of their cyborgs.

#65-68 write out Nathan Christopher Summers and is the last "X-Factor/Apocalypse" fight. #67 also sets up the Upstarts storyline and kills off Sebastian Shaw/introduces his son Shinobi.

#69 is part of the Muir Island Saga and #70 is the epilogue. You only need UXM #280 to read it.
>>
>>107012786
keep going pls
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>>107011386
Dissolution and Rebirth (#244-269) is a fun era to read in hindsight. At the time, fans didn't know what the fuck Claremont was doing blowing up the X-Men and scattering them and setting up all sorts of subplots in service of the big Shadow King story he was planning.

Reading it after the fact, it still holds up because you can see what Claremont was doing in terms of creating a big storyline, one that spanned two years and saw the X-Men struggling against a nasty conspiracy theory picking them off one by one.
>>
>>107012505
As for the rest of the run:

X-Factor #71-90 is the PAD run. Starts strong but has shitty artwork (Stroman is literal sales poison). Stroman is quickly removed after a year and Jay Lee and Joe Quesada took over. Quesada's X-Factor run was widely loved but PAD got pissy when he found out that Quesada wanted his creation Random to join the team, plus PAD being a cunt who refused to do crossovers while at the same time, being an uppity shit when they basically asked him to pitch his own X-Over then and being shocked when he made a super outrageous suggestion (bring back Magneto and have him rip the metal out of Wolverine), under the guise that Marvel would reject it so hard that they would just let him have X-Factor be an irrelevant piss poor selling title like Excalibur, only to find that editor ran with it (hence them committing to Magneto's return and pulling out Wolverine's adamantium).

Quesada quit X-Factor, ironically two issues after PAD did. X-Factor #91-92 wrap up PAD's run (though the Genosha storyline has a major plot thread, IIRC Bi-Beast being a prisoner of the Genonshans, in Hulk) and are worth reading in terms of doing a good job of doing so.

X-Factor #91-107 are awesome though Multiple Man is killed off. You get the return of Malice, major character developement for Strong Guy and Wolfsbane, along with Forge joining the team.

#108-111 are set-up for Age of Apocalypse and end on a cliffhanger with Strong Guy having a heart attack. He gets written out, while Maddrox is teased returning (his actual return is super fucking blotched BTW and happens in full later down the line in X-Factor #129 IIRC).
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>>107013229
X-Factor #112-126 are a bit of a trainwreck. Havok is written out after losing control over his powers and kidnapped/brainwashed into serving Dark Beast. Random is retconned into a young skinny kid who can size shift into a big dump muscle guy and is also a Dark Beast creation. Also, Mystique joins the team and causes Wolfsbane to rage quit off-panel; Sabretooth and Wildchild (regressed back to a feral state off-panel since the end of Alpha Flight) also join as does a hologram of Bishop's dead sister Shad. The writers wrap up the dangling plotline of Haven's benefactor being The Adversary (it was supposed to be Apocalypse and her giving birth to a Genesis type young baby Apocalypse) and retconning Destiny pushing Forge/Mystique together by revealing that she saw the return of Adversary and only Mystique/Forge together being able to stop him.

Around issue this time, Howard Mackie took over and basically wrote the book more or less as Mutant X-Files with government conspiracies and such. #127-130 set up Operation Zero Tolerance with the murder of Graymond Creed (done by a time traveling version of Mystique, who is forced to do so by OG X-Factor's ship as part of a time loop thing where she committed the murder her past self was trying to prevent. Also, Havok rescues Dark Beast and starts leading the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants (a plotline so reviled that Mackie ultimately said fuck it and said that Forge and Havok were having Alex PRETEND to be evil to bring down Dark Beast). And Maddrox returns in a one-off story where the goverment has Maddrox and his dupes all masked and brainwashed and them trying to kil X-Factor but being freed and then disappaering from the book with no follow up.
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>>107013245


#131-137 meanwhile saw major changes. Sabretooth turns on the team and was supposed to kill EVERYONE but Mystique in Operation Zero Tolerance, but editorial got cold feet so Polaris, Forge, Wildchild, and Val Cooper all got a reprieved. Sadly they all got written out of the book for nearly the entire next year.

The plan was, as of #138, X-Factor would become an anthology book with a different story every couple of issues and that the book would focus solely on X-Villains. This was aborted, though several issues were already written and published with minimal change. Around #141-147, the book got retooled again with the introduction of a group of time traveling mutants from Bishop's future. They were members of XSE (the mutant police force Bishop and Shard were a part of) and they teamed up with Strong Guy to hunt down a young evil mutant who was going to get his powers boosted by Dark Beast and turn evil-evil. Here the Forge/Havok retcon came into play and Havok stopped Dark Beast and convinced the XSE guys to let the young mutant go now that the future had been changed and he never got the power boost.

Final two issues brought back Polaris and #149 introduced a new line-up that never came to be; the book was canceled and replaced with Mutant X as Harras liked a pitch that Mackie made (the new X-Factor versus an evil alternate universe version of the X-Men) for an upcoming story and told him they were ending X-Factor and replacing it with Mutant X.
>>
>>107012766
>>107012786
>>107013229
>>107013245
>>107013265

Shut the fuck up Jesse
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>>107012786
>>107012884
>>107013229
>>107013245
>>107013265
Well, I guess, things got interesting after Simonson went out. I'll continue to read.
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>>107008963
Honestly, Brood saga is the peak DESPITE Carol.
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>that arc where the Conan villain turned all of the NYC and the X-Men into a Conan universe

Those comics got weird.
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>>107013229
>PAD being a giant douchewad
I had no idea this happened, everyone always wanks him as being amazing for X-Factor but it sounds like there were some serious cons.
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>>107014987
That was so bad.
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>>107014987
That was part of Claremont trying to cash in on Conan-mania (the movie had just came out) and other hot books. This was around the same time that he did an Alpha Flight X-Over and Thor crossover without actually using Thor, just his supporting cast and villains story, because Alpha Flight and Thor were the other two hottest books at Marvel at the time and Claremont wanted to cash in on them.

>>107015014
Not really; they were far better than Asgardian Wars or The Gift and you had Claremont advance his storylines in them with some nice character bits (mainly Selene and Warlock getting meaty parts and character development)
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>>107015090
For me, Asgardian Wars > Hyborean Era NY
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>>107015145
You and everyone else.
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>>107014987

it was funny when i realized this was kind of a dry run for Inferno. Hyborean NYC is a cool gimmick for an issue or two
>>
I've been mulling over reading the entire x-men library up to late 90's, but fuck it's so daunting. And there's so many different fan lists for what order to read, how can I choose the right one?
>>
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>>107015821
http://www.comicsbackissues.com/comic-book-reading-order/x-men-read-order-chronology/
This one doesn't leave anything out. So it's up to you what not to read.
I didn't start at Uncanny X-Men 001, though.
I started on Giant-Size X-Men #1 and I go from there on following the release date chronology. It's easy to do that since the order shows the year of the issues, but it's ordered by in-universe chronology.
I also skip some minis, minor appearances of x-men in other books, semi-related books (like Alpha Flight), annuals and whatnot. The guy who ordered the issues do a quick rundown on the issue if needed so you can decide if it's worth it or not, like who show up on the issue and what happens (only if something important happens).
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>>107016172
>I started on Giant-Size X-Men #1
y
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>>107016327
Because first class is shit. X-men wasn't the greatest thing Lee and Kirby were doing at the time. The book was living on reprints until Wein unfucked it. It was easier to just read about what was going on before and look at the art cause Kirby is great and all, but the book as a whole not so much. Magneto wasn't even their nemesis or anything and some crazy writer turned him into a baby for some reason.
Second Genesis saved X-Men. The greatest soft reboot of all time.
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>>107016622
Everything you said is true but the Neal Adams issues are worth checking out.
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>>107016643
You are talking about the last 8 issues or so before the book started reprinting. I can take a look some day.
Right now I'm around first Genosha.
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>>107016327
>>107016643

Stop trying so hard. Modern X-men starts at Classic #1. I'm a massive Silver Age mark adn even I'll admit the original series is not even in the top 15 runs
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>>107016643
As someone who read them I can tell you the art is spectacular, as well as the ONLY reason anyone should "read" those issues.
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>>107016874
L ol dude. Saying something is worth checking out isn't the same as saying it's a top ten run.
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>>107008659
When Paul Smith leaves? It's a good time to walk away from X-Men...
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>>107017316
>looking at the reading order and not seeing Paul Smith name anymore
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>>107015010
His later run with Multiple Man as the central character is solid.
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>>107016622
regardless that shit gets mentioned later on so you gotta read it
>>
I recently did a read through from the beginning and I dropped around #200. It was the bloated X universe that killed it for me. I can handle Claremont's absurd purple prose and convoluted characters on an X-Men book but it was getting into new Mutants, X-Factor, Alpha Flight, Power Pack, crossovers. minis. etc. etc. and that was too much for me.

Piskor's Grand Design books are essential for doing a read through. He's now up to #186 or so so the onslaught of crossovers should be next.
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>>107017659
I'm in UXM #235 and doing fine.
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>>107017805
Just skip it.
I read New Mutants and X-Factor. Though, I don't know what to do with Excalibur yet.
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>>107017809
the creepy "xavier has a crush on jean" stuff comes up in onslaught
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>>107017805
the spin-offs are great, what are you on about

x-factor is just another type of x-men
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>>107017994
They range from mediocre to awful outside of the new Mutants run with the good artist.
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>>107008659
Idk. How about you keep reading and start a blog with your opinion?
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>>107017805
>Piskor's Grand Design books
How are those?
>>
>>107018196
I think they're pretty great. They're probably exactly what you think t.b.h. I'm not really sure what the point is, they're not in-depth enough to replace reading the comics but they're more than a vague overview. It's a well drawn history book.
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>>107018227
you just said they're essential for a read through, now you're saying they're pointless

which is it?
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>>107018248
Obviously they're essential for a read through, pointless on their own
>>
bump
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>>107009394
No, it killed the X-Franchise, maybe not imminently but in concept.
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>>107015014
>>107014987
This was fucking great.
>>
I'll go to my grave claiming X-Force v1 was actually one of the better ancillary (i.e. non-Uncanny/Adjectiveless) with only two truly bad or otherwise not that good periods with the Liefeld stuff in the first year and the Counter-X retool. It's not a perfect book but everything outside of those two periods ranges from acceptable (Loeb) to pretty good (Nicieza, second half or so of Moore's run) to great (Road Trip and Milligan/Allred).

I really don't like any of the relaunched X-Forces because I have an undying hatred of "superheroes as a black ops team" concepts and they get away from what actually made the first volume work. That once Liefeld is gone the extreme stuff gets largely phased out and the book becomes about the former kids coming into their own as young adults away from their mentors and father figure.
>>
>>107015010
His first X-Factor run was great but his second one, was dogshit. It's also a good example of editorial interference being a good thing: the first X-Factor run had a massive amount of importance and "have to buy it" to it as far as it being a big part of the larger picture for the franchise.

With the second volume, PAD was given free reign save for forced company wide crossovers (which he had no choice but to do to boost sales) but outside Messiah Complex, had no real connection/importance to the grand scheme of things X-Men-wise. Meaning you could skip it and pretty much ignore it, which caused it to sell for shit.
>>
>>107017316
Smith left with the end of From the Ashes (UXM #175) but came back to draw the two-part X-Men/Alpha Flight mini
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>>107017961
The only issues of Excalibur you need to read are #71-105. Those are the only issues that actually fucking matter in relations to the main X-books
>>
>>107019678
The first 15 issues of X-Force are pretty good and I'll defend them in terms of being acceptable jump on point for that period and creating a nice self-contained run that set up a bunch of stuff that gets paid off down the line.

It helped that Liefeld had Nicieza effectively ghost-writing the Liefeld run on the book, which helped when Fabian took over the book full time.

That said, if you want, you can easily stop reading X-Force after #43 (Fabian's last issue). Loeb's run is very hit or miss and removing Cannonball was MASSIVE mistake. Loeb's run also ends abruptly due to him being banned from making Shatterstar Longshot's son and outing Shatterstar/Rictor. And Moore's run has some good moments but also a TON of shitty ones as far as crappy ass stories.

But Counter X is pretty much unreadable garbage and killed the book dead to the point that they had to blow everything up and let Milligan and Allred create a brand new team and concept for the title.
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>>107018196
One hand, it's basically the cliffnotes version of the X-Men history done in the art style of Stardust and attempts to create a coheren canon out of the Claremont years minus a lot of the 00s era retcons.

One the other hand, it skips over or fucks up adapting a lot of stories and drops massive balls (Erik the Red is retconned as a dream figure that Polaris trusts explicitly that Jean exploits to convince her Magneto isn't her dad, but we are not told WHAT Erik the Red is as far as context for why Lorna accepts him, let alone how and why the Shi'Ar then use the name/costume to kidnap her and Havok and brainwash them).

It's handling of Proteus Saga and From the Ashes is particularly insulting.
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i like x-factor and liefeld force
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bubmp
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>>107010025
>skipping best stuff
Fuck this pleb thread
Each one of you is a massive pleb, and you don't deserve my attention
>>
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>>107008883
I love punk Storm so much.
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>>107012884
it's such a shame, because it could have been mega epic. He wanted to redeem Magneto and make him the new Charles Xavier, with Shadow King becoming the ultimate X-Men / mutants nemesis, which would work perfectly. I mean, it would explain why mutants and X-Men are hated in particular so viciously by humankind - it's all Shadow King's work. Sadly, Jim Lee happened and it all went to shit
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>>107013229
TO THINK THAT WE COULD HAD PAD / LARSEN'S X-FACTOR, but Image happened
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>>107013229
>though the Genosha storyline has a major plot thread, IIRC Bi-Beast being a prisoner of the Genonshans, in Hulk
really? would love know which issues. Also, on the last page of first PAD's run, there was a new character introduced called Armageddon that was supposed to be the new big X-factor villain (not unlike Apocalypse), but obviously it didn't happen. The character later was renamed to The Isolationist during PAD's second run, while the name and design of the original Armageddon was used in PAD's Hulk for the Troyjan War mini epic
>>
>The X-Men were apart of Cosmic Marvel at one point
They need to bring this back.
>>
>>107021197
They tried with Venom and it was shit
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>>107015014
>shitting on a legendary story
why don't you just kill yourself. I mean, /co/ was never good, but this is a new level of faggotry

Now that marvel has conan again, I'm waiting for X-Men vs Kulan Gath part 2
>>
>>107016622
but what about Neal Adams, Heck, Steranko, and young BWS? It wasn't great, but I don't think it was worse than Hulk, Human Torch, Ant-Man or Inhumans
jesus guys, you fuckers are triggering my autism
>>
>>107019550

Agreed but it was dead already. It was a burnout over fade away situation and it laid the ground work for the Jim Lee comeback.
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>>107021027
There will never be long term story telling like this again at the Big 2. The woman is literally an African tribal priestess when we meet her. She progresses to meek confused outsider, then shy loner, then willing to open up around friends, then motherly and protective over friends, then confident, then fuck you I'm the team leader now talk shit I dare you. All organically and through the stories. She wouldn't get a fifth of the way there in modern marvel without getting rebooted and retconned a dozen times.
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>>107022579
which was complete dogshit
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>>107022757
congratulations, you just discovered the secret of the x-men popularity. ironically, during the dark times of the movie rights, they were also the only book that was allowed to grow a little, until the recent relaunch
>>
As someone who loves the hell out of the X-Men, to the point of having everything from the Thomas issues up till the end of AvX, I have to say that it reads much better as a slow burn. It's not the sort of thing you marathon.

It's the type of title where everyone can have their own favorite issue. It's such a joy to read in floppies, but reading online issue after issue would just make me burned out.
>>
>>107022843
I agree, even if I did read all of the x-books in the span of 6 months during my marathon back in 2010. The main problem for me were the ancillary/related books like alpha flight, captain britain, cloak dagger and power pack, as they had some plots/characters that were intertwined with the proper x-books. At first I was skipping them, but it lead to situations where I was curious about the genesis of let's say Psylocke and why she was blind at first, and so on which was frustrating
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>>107022949
cont. not to mention that there are certain mutants who barely interacted with the x-men, but who are also fun to read, as for example, you have Daredevil, Avengers, or Darkhawk dealing with mutant issues as well
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>>107021015
I have other things to do besides reading comics and I also have more comics and books to read. If one day I manage to get to present day x-men comics I might go back and read alpha flight and wolverine.
But nothing will make me read power pack and teamups that dont add nothing to the x-men lore and the annuals' issues.
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>>107022843
True. I read online but I don't abuse. 10 issues per day max and I also don't read everyday
>>
Animorphs got fucking weird
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>>107022843
Agreed. And the point OP is talking about is when it really starts to get painful. Claremont knew what he was doing, when a huge arc ends and the next few issues are the team just hanging out and fucking around and doing personal stuff, you're supposed to chill out and take a break too. You're not supposed to speed through to the next world ending cataclysm.
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>>107024000
they kinda add, that's the point, especially Alpha Flight, and first volume of PP
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>>107019903
Ok so I'm reading the first one and the whole Namor vs Human Torch fight is part of Timely/Marvel lore but I don't remember anything about New York being underwater and the Xaviers solving that problem with some sort of super tech that impressed Stark. Was this from some issue I missed or all head cannon?
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>>107025155
Namor flooding NYC is from the Golden Age Torch comics and Xavier's dad being an atomic energy research scientist who worked on the bomb and splitting the atom is from Xavier's childhood flashback in the first Silver Age X-Men issue with Juggernaut. He put together that Xavier's dad helped deflood NYC which is why Stark funded his atomic energy research as head canon. There's a reference guide in the back.
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>>107025480
>There's a reference guide in the back.
I saw that and it's great they did that but they only list the issue of when Namor fights Human Torch, the next reference is to the Golden Age heroes like the Fin and co. and I've read X Men number 12 in it there is only reference to Xavier's dad working on the atomic bomb not this New York underwater like the Ultimate Universe did in Ultimatum. Issue 1 Xavier also said his parents worked on the atomic bomb and this could be the cause mutants, knowing Kirby's fascination with radiation and mutation, I always liked this version the best.

I asked knowing Piskor rewrote some minor detail to make sense of aliens coming to Earth making the Stranger and Mutant Master instructed in mutants for the sole reason they are looking for the Phoenix Force host.
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Speaking of this goofy era. Marvel just collected a huge slab of it in an Epic Collection including the Conan stuff:

>UNCANNY X-MEN (1963) 189-198, X-MEN ANNUAL (1970) 8, X-MEN AND ALPHA FLIGHT (1985) 1-2, NIGHTCRAWLER (1985) 1-4 (X-MEN EPIC COLLECTION VOL. 12)

I'm all for covering the more obscure and uncollected stuff but I have no idea why they're autistically covering all of the pre-Second Genesis era and then skipping to this and ignoring the 8 or so years of GOAT comics in the middle. Half of this trade like the awful annual and out of context crossover issues were filler.
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>>107025857
I wish mutant master made a comeback, even if redesigned. If there is one good thing that Piskor did, was to emphasize the sci-fi mad max element of the mutants
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>>107025906
*mutant warlords
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>>107008659
>Marauders are lame
For all of Claremont's strengths as a writer, he only really lends dimension to his protagonists. His antagonists are comparatively flat and his villains flatter. In a few cases like Arcade that works to their advantage, but most suffer for it.
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>>107026838
Lol he all but created the greatest antagonist in the history of comics next to the Joker you nut
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>>107011028
>>107011185
Rachel's entire raison d'etre was the will-she-won't-she about revealing herself to Scott and I am pretty sure Claremont had no clue what to do with her afterward that wasn't writing her out of the book. I think he wanted to milk DoFP for more tragedy even though the story had closure. >>107011386
>unironically LOVE Inferno [and] X-Tinction Agenda
Both of those were forced on Claremont by editorial (as was Fall of the Mutants) and contributed to his quitting the book.
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>>107012269
>I didn't like X-Men until Rogue joined.
I didn't read X-Men until my brother gave me Public Enemy One to read and I fell in love with her on the spot.
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>>107014987
Claremont had used Kulan Gath in Manhattan before, when he was writing Spider-Man and Red Sonja was possessing MJ's body. This should have been an event book, not Inferno.
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>>107015090
>Alpha Flight X-Over
The one where Rogue taps Northstar and teases him about knowing his secret. In the same page, she reminds him growing up around cajuns on the bayou, she speaks French. Which the current writer for Gambit & Rogue never read and tried to establish that she couldn't understand Remy, a cajun.
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>>107017316
>When Paul Smith leaves? It's a good time to walk away from X-Men...
You remind me of the lettercol writers from that time who were still bitching about the first X-Men team no longer starring in the book.
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>>107022757
I won't say Ororo was Claremont's favorite character but he never invested so much time into a character's development before or since. He kind of had to once she took that bullet for Rogue otherwise he would have had to write her out of the book or quickly repower her. Claremont took the hardest road.
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>>107026871
>he all but created the greatest antagonist in the history of comics
Solely because he was planning to turn Mags.
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>>107026910
oh, he had a clue, there is this unpublished Phoenix mini-series by Leonardi/Claremont that had all of the answers about Rachel, but it remains unpublished to this day. You can find pages from issue 1 on the internet, though
>>
It really feels weird to read this thread, because a lot of posts are either plebeian, or uninformed. I had a feeling that a lot of newfags started reading x-men because of the fox acquisition by Disney
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>>107008659
Read New Mutants.

Either way, innovation doesn't always mean perfection. Claremont set a new standard for how you wrote characters in capes but it doesn't meant he could exploit it indefinitely. There was also plenty of drama at editorial level and that tired some writers out.

>>107010808
Sunspot gets his own mini series with Fallen Angels. Rahne, I dunno, she never felt undeveloped to me. She was often used as the emotional anchor that set the team's mood for the issue.

>>107021197
Eh I wouldn't call them cosmic but they've always been deeply rooted in sci fi themes.

>>107022843
Yeah, most comics from the early 80s and before simply weren't thought out to be read in tandem. When I binge old comics I find myself skipping text all the time - simply out of boredom
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>>107026995
>Red Sonja was possessing MJ's body
another 50 Shades of Jean Grey Claremont fetish of body possession at it's best.

>>107027690
>they've always been deeply rooted in sci fi themes
yes the Watcher, the Stranger, Kree and Shi'ar Empires, Dire Wraith and the Brood. The X Men were in every part of the Marvel U even in the supernatural stuff.
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>>107008659
>Wolverine almost kills Rachel and forgiven next issue.
She only even survives because Mojo abducts and heals her. That shit was fucking weird.
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>>107025857
Did they shoot the Sun with radiation to what, dry up the waters? Wonder what Stark Industries used his technologies for.

Is this book only Claremont era X-Men? Cause Fabian Nicieza turned the Atomic bomb tests Charles parents were a part of into a more mutant gene research called Project Black Womb and Hazard came out from all this mess. Also sucks we didn't get to read about the convoluted mess Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch's backstories were when Greenwald redid High Evolutionary's origins. Need that Bova cameo.
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>>107014987
>Spider-Man dying on a fucking cross

8 years old me wasn't ready
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>>107019801
>His first X-Factor run was great but his second one, was dogshit
Are you actually shitting on the ~120 issues of Madrox X-Factor? What the fuck is wrong with you?
Yes it was always irrelevant to the "big picture", but that's what made it fucking great.
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>>107027274
Any more info on this?
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>>107009394
it's not great but it's essential reading since it directly sets up the 1988,89,and 90 crossover events and intros a ton of new concepts.
>>
Why did Shooter decide to ruin one of the best performing comics of the time?
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>>107030695
It's just his personality really. The same thing that made him great also made him awful. It's not really ego, it's more about the power trip
>>
I remember finding the run really shit from the first chapter after Second Genesis until Byrne comes.
Do I have shit taste? Or is it as bad as I remember?
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>>107031008
Cockrum art was perfect
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>>107031008
The writing is a bit clunky and still feels more Silver Age than bronze Age. It's a transitional period.
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>>107019550

Bringing back one dead character and bringing another out of retirement didn't kill the franchise. What it killed was the idea that the X-Men franchise was Claremont's personal fiefdom that he had complete control over. This is something that would always have happened in some way eventually.

A lot of fans love the unfulfilled idea that the X-Men would be a generational saga, where characters would permanently die or retire, and be replaced by the next generation, something Claremont talked about, but never managed to do, and X-Factor gets seen as the moment that blocked that, but Marvel were never going to allow anyone to permanently write out all of the popular characters and replace them with their own OCs, they would be too afraid it would hurt sales.
>>
In Claremonts ideal universe Scott is in Alaska with Maddie, Inferno never happened, Jean is dead, and Rachel is Phoenix. He had the "Tessa is a spy for Xavier" plan since at least '91 when he was plotting out the buildup to #300. Oh I'm not saying it's bad and reading what Claremont originally wanted it makes sense. Shadow King is behind Mystique being a terrorist having driven her insane. Shadow King is fueling anti-mutant hysteria and trying to drive the world towards the DoFP timeline and you get to Uncanny #300 and the X-Men and their enemies unite to drive him off in what would've been a more proper way to (probably) end Claremont's run.

We were going to get X - Factor regardless of Jean being alive or dead, Dazzler was just going to be on the team instead.
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>>107031636
The basic outline for the original Fall of the Mutants storyline After Claremont is forced to ditch above.

>>After Magneto's trial, Jaspers would end up being relocated to the US.
>>The Fury would arrive to Earth to kill him but find Nimrod instead. Nimrod kills the Fury, merges with the remains and gains Doom level super-intelligence.
>>Nimrod carries out the mutant massacre himself (in a story that runs only in the pages of X-Men); only Kitty gets hurt fighting him as far as becoming permanently phased.
>>Jaspers and Nimrod meet, form an alliance but both plotting to betray the other.
>>Jasper's reality warping power manifests, decides to slowly warp reality to recreate the Days of Future Past timeline version in the present
>>Kitty is treated by Captain Britain; along with Longshot and Cap Britain would become part of a harem with Colossus pursuing Kitty romantically
>>Polaris is killed by the Marauders, who are killing mutants for Mr Sinister. Hellfire Club also hit by Sinister, forcing an alliance between them and the X-Men. Havok rejoins the team and the Hellions are transferred to the X-Mansion for their safety.
>>Forge finds out via magick a way to reverse/counter the impending reality warp, as Storm arrives post-death of Polaris to get her powers back. Both get exiled outside the universe by Jaspers.
>>Rachel escapes Mojo just in time to realize that Jasper's slowly warping reality to recreate the future and warn the X-Men
>>Manhattan gets warped into DOFP Manhattan, with the warp growing and slowly consuming the planet.
>>FOTM then starts, with the X-Men proper being affected by the warp physically and mentally ala Inferno. They also finally meet X-Factor.
>>Kitty and her harem are given the Seige Perilous by Roma and join the X-Men in fighting Jaspers/Nimrod
>>Nimrod is sent through the Siege Perilous; no clue what happens to Jaspers
>>Reality warp is reversed but the X-Teams are the only ones to remember what happened
>>
>>107019877
Moore's run isn't perfect but I think it's fine. It's serviceable superhero comics at a time where the main X-Men books were complete and utter dogshit. That and the road trip is legit among my all time favorite X-Men stories. I kind of compare his run to Faerber's on Generation X at the same time in that neither are going to blow you away but they were perfectly fine cape books during an overall bad time for the X-Men.

I can't speak for books like X-Factor because I haven't read a lot of it or Excalibur because mid-'90s Excalibur looks like shit and I've never really cared for that book or team anyway.

I do miss a lot of those mid-'90s characters though. I'd like to see Risque and Shard come back (and Shard seems like she'd be really easy to bullshit a way back) and Val is one of those characters I wish would get more play. The X-Men need a good and high profile government/flatscan liaison who will help them but isn't a pushover.
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>>107028066
kek
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>>107031008
I don't like Giant-Size or the first few issues (the Count Nefaria arc and... N'Garai?). Once the space stuff starts up a few issues in it becomes a great.

Speaking of the N'Garai, for as much as Claremont liked using characters he previously wrote in his run (Carol, Colleen Wing) it surprises me he never brought in Satana, especially once he started doing the more Hell/Limbo/demon shit with Illyana. I mean she was dead at the time but it would've been easy to bring her back.

>>107031248
My issue is that they haven't allowed the franchise to evolve at all. Any time it starts to they kneecap it. Claremont starts retiring the OGs? Here comes X-Factor. Lobdell wanted to go with a stripped down, non-Mansion team after O:ZT and thus a completely new direction? Nope, bring back the '80s team. Mutants as an actual population and culture? Cull them. Muties are coming back? Cull them.

I don't like Hickman and I think his run will probably wind up being an ill fit as most big name writers coming to the X-Men tend to be but whatever new evolution of the franchise he tries to do he'll inevitably be driven off and it'll be immediately reversed.
>>
What you guys all think of Claremont's X-Men: Forever?
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>>107030695
What you mean how did he ruin X Men?you referring to how he chased away talent?
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>>107014987
Ah thanks for this. I had forgotten when that plot happened.
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>>107025480
They say a picture is worth a thousand words, but fuck it, here's a thousand words anyway!
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>>107031039
stop this meme. byrne outclasses him completely
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>>107032774
I never said Byrne is bad. Calm down
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>>107032824
i am calm. fuck you for telling me to be calm!!!
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>>107032522
>Lobdell wanted to go with a stripped down, non-Mansion team after O:ZT and thus a completely new direction? Nope, bring back the '80s team.

In fairness, this was during Marvel's bankruptcy period, and at a time when the X-Men books were the only things selling well for Marvel. It's understandable why they didn't feel they could afford the risk of any drastic changes.

>Mutants as an actual population and culture? Cull them.

This was a change that affected all of Marvel, not just the X-Men, and a change that hurt Marvel's ability to pretend their world bears a surface-level resemblance to the real world.

What happened to the X-Men is what happens to all long running books, plus what's happened to Big 2 superhero books. A core cast of characters establishes itself, popular villains and stock plots keep repeating. Actual change and progress becomes the illusion of change and now we have constant reboots, relaunches, deaths, resurrections and Events, with no regard for continuity, consistent lore or characterization. Occasionally someone will come up with an original take on a character or book, but everyone else will change it back to normal afterwards. Most of the audience for Big 2 books don't want evolution, progress, and new characters, and sales usually reflect that.
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>>107032856
>Most of the audience for Big 2 books don't want evolution, progress, and new characters, and sales usually reflect that.
Yeah. The biggest thing holding the medium back as an artform are, funnily, the fans themselves.
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>>107027035
She absorbed the mental ability to speak french. I am unaware of her ever speaking french outside of that.
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>>107027166
>I won't say Ororo was Claremont's favorite character
Oh she was. There is even some rumors that he hired a dom to dress up as Storm
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>>107032872

Big 2 superhero books aren't Art, they're a product. They're a commercial product that needs to give the audience what it wants to sell enough copies to survive. They can sometimes aspire towards Art, but that's more likely to happen in lower-tier books where both fans and editorial don't care enough about the characters to have any demands or expectations. If you want Art, you're better off looking elsewhere. If you want a storyline to progress and evolve, you're better off reading a finite work with beginning and end, not an endless franchise fiction that will inevitably always reset back to a recognizable status quo to keep itself alive.
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>>107031652
>Nimrod kills the Fury
Wll that's some bullshit right there
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>>107014987
>the way the heroes fixed this was by pulling Nimrod to their timeline

I love the little bits
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>>107032924
Well to be fair there’s a story of Claremont sending sexy lingerie and leather outfits with whips and chains to the female staff in Marvel. I think it was Ann Nocenti who said this story.
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>>107032924
>There is even some rumors that he hired a dom to dress up as Storm
Based on all the rumors I've heard about Claremont and his fetishes, he seems like one fucked up individual
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>>107033068
Damn! Good thing he is barely working today or he would be Metooed so hard. One of his ex-wives, who coloured some of the stuff leading up to Inferno, was apparently a satanist, or at least went to some of those gatherings.
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>>107033092
You are on 4chan and calling Claremonts fetishes fucked up? He makes us look tame
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>>107028250
It's pretty intense.
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>>107033115
My bad it was Shooter who sent the outfit. Claremont was just next to her in the video.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uifbCLL-oW4
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>>107033134
Claremont is a real person. If you believe half the stuff you read here you're a sucker
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>>107008659
Claremont is terrible at not making every page an exposition dump. It killed my interest in a lot of classic X-men.
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>>107033343
Almost everyone in "old comics" is guilty of this. You either accept it or ignore it.
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>>107033402
Not like Claremont. He overdoes it on each panel. Not unlike Bendis.
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>>107033673
>Not unlike Bendis.
Please, nothing in modern comics approaches what they used to do back then.
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>>107033686
Addendum: I just remembered Snyder and Tynion are still working. I take it back.
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>>107033092

Fetishes? Where?
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>>107033343
>not making every page an exposition dump
He was forced into doing that by Shooter who insisted any given issue should be accessible to a new reader. Claremont hated that at the time but preaches it now.
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>>107033343
>>107033673

Claremont is nothing compared to Roy "Purple Pilled" Thomas and Stan "Every character needs to narrate what they're doing at all times to get me that fat writer / editor check" Lee.
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>>107031248
This is really true, but I don't think it became apparent until the 90s.

>>107033343
Claremont was actually one of the first writers to start dropping the expo dump paradigm. Before him it was even harder.
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>>107034111
Pretty sure it was Miller on DD
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>>107013848
>DESPITE Carol
No... The Brood stuff is easily among her best, actually. Her as Binary is peak MurderCarol, and so was her time with the Starjammers.
People should really let go of their nonsense hateboner and at least admit her older stuff during Claremont is actually pretty good.
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>>107032856
I get that but it's still irritating. House of M is unironically the worst thing Marvel's done in the last 30 years. Not even the depths of the "we're giving books to people like Kate Leth" period is as overall damaging not just to a franchise but to the entire line as a whole than that one story.
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>>107034173
Aren't they contemporaries? Also Starlin, but he first did more paneling innovation than writing.
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>>107031636
Wrong about Mystique.

Claremont had a time travel storyline planned for Excalibur (would have been the third and fourth prestigus format special but only saw the light of day in 1999 as "X-Men True Friends", which downplayed Mystique and Destiny and inserted an additional time lost Wolverine into the mix too) where Rachel and Kitty get stranded in the 1920s and team up with Mystique and Destiny and stop a scheme of the Shadow King.

SK would mindprobe Rachel (hence getting the idea for his Hounds seen in UXM #265-267) and the Hound program in the DOFP timeline (as Shadow King was in charge of the Hellfire Club too and orchestrated the rise of the Sentinels and Rachel being captured/turned into a Hound, not Ahab).

Anyhow, Shadow King wants revenge on Mystique, but can't touch her since Destiny would see him a coming a mile away. So he waits and waits and waits DECADES until Legion kills Destiny.

Mystique no longer has a future seeing lover, so Shadow King FINALLY can get revenge on her and sends a brainwashed Valerie Cooper to kill Mystique. It fails though because:

1. Destiny knew Shadow King was waiting for her to die to finally get revenge on Mystique for helping foil his scheme in the 1920s and wrote Mystique a letter warning her that the Shadow King was finally going to try and get payback

2. Val Cooper was WAY stronger than Shadow King thought and she broke free and shot herself in the head. And Mystique then called Nick Fury and got him to brainwash her into thinking she was Val/fool the Shadow King's telepathic probes, to spy on him
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>>107031681
Faeber's Gen X started strong but went to hell when, a couple of issues into his run, he blatantly ignores Hama's Wolverine run in relations to Jubilee's backstory and her parents death in order to do a crappier version of said story.
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>>107032522
In defense of X-Factor, there was a TON of shit you could still do with the original X-Men (especially since Beast was THRIVING in Avengers).

And Layton NEVER wanted Jean back. He had a PERFECTLY REASONABLE out to let Claremont have his way and still get the original X-Men in the mix: basically use Havok and Polaris in the Jean/Scott role.

X-Factor did very well with the other founders. Beast getting his human form back at the expense of his intelligence and his fractured relationship with Trish Tribley (basically an amoral Lois Lane). Angel losing everything, being betrayed BIG TIME by Cameron Hodge, and his transformation into Archangel. Iceman becoming more powerful but not being able to control it, his having to grow up and become a responsible adult, and finding love with Opal.

Hell, if Claremont had his way, no one would have been allowed to use Beast and New Defenders wouldn't have happened or even Champions. Even his "friends" were fucked over: Louis Simonson had a Havok/Polaris mini-series killed because Claremont didn't like it one bit, and Barry Windor-Smith wasn't allowed to do a Storm solo series in the same vein as Red Sonja.
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>>107032856
That wasn't after Lobdell. The Seagle and Kelly run technically WAS what Lobdell wanted (X-Men poor and broke, no Xavier, struggling to deal with having to be poor fags) but Harras hated it and killed the entire direction, because Kelly and Seagle wanted to do a Dark Phoenix sequel with MODOK in the role of Mastermind, nearly killing Scott and causing Jean to go Dark Phoenix on AIM. Harras wanted Magneto back ASAP and he didn't want Joseph to be Proteus (another big bad that Kelly and Seagle was planning to bring back to solve the issue of who Joseph was after Harras demanded he be a unique entity and not Magneto after all, like Harras originally intended).

He forced Kelly and Seagle to cull the cast and replace them with a near identical version of the mid-80s roster, save for Marrow and Gambit for Rachel and Scott.

They quit shortly after and were replaced by Alan Davis, as the last straw was being told by Harras that he wanted Gambit on the team not Jean, because "Gambit fucking sells".
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>>107034873
>he wanted Gambit on the team not Jean, because "Gambit fucking sells".

Thot Patrol
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>>107034789
>and Barry Windor-Smith wasn't allowed
Back in the late 80s I was on CompuServe and Claremont was loudly bitching that Weapon X wasn't canon to anyone who'd listen.
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>>107034967
>>107034873
Tbf Gambit did sell at that time
>>
So what comics should I not skip outside of the core X-Men title and the Wolverine mini?
>>
>>107035040
New Mutants until Claremont leaves (or Inferno if want closure on Illyana until 2007ish)
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>>107034968
I thought they were good collaborators and just didn't have done more stuff together because of their own schedules. That's fucked up. Winsor-Smith's issues on Storm are the greatest for me.
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>>107026871
That's not Doctor Doom.
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>>107034873
Well Lobdell's lineup was also going to be a lot different. I think it was supposed to be the Iceman/Marrow/Cecilia Reyes/Sabra group that was running around in Zero Tolerance and Zero Tolerance would've originally ended with Magneto showing up, ripping the helicarrier in half and declaring all out war on humanity because of what Bastion did.

Then Marvel nixed the idea of using Magneto (I think) and also told Lobdell he couldn't use Sabra after initially okaying it and I guess frustration and burn out caused him to just throw his hands up and walk. IIRC Eve of Destruction is a very vaguely reworked and heavily truncated version of what Lobdell wanted to do.
>>
>>107034967
>>107034996

Not really. The 1998 roster change done for the 35th Anniversary (and Gambit joining/the Phoenix subplot getting dropped), basically was the moment when the X-Men franchise went into full-on free fall and never recovered until four years later when Morrison took over.

It's one of the reasons why a lot of people consider UXM #359/X-Men #79 to be the point when the 90s era gravy train ended and fans realized that Harras was never going to let epic stories happen organically as they did in the past and simply micromanage shit to the point of draining the soul from the franchise to make it dull and bland and non-threatening.

>>107034968
That never happened. BWS basically gave Weapon X to Claremont to vet before it was published and the ONLY change Claremont demanded, was for the reveal that Apocalypse being the man behind Wolverine getting his metal skeleton, as he wanted to write that story/reveal himself.
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I really wish the writers would have had Scanner join after Avalon was destroyed. I like the stuff with Cyclops leading the Acolytes around in the Outback trying to find the old Reaver base and the stuff with him and Scanner is cute as fuck.
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>>107021197
Space Opera X-men only works when they briefly do it.
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>>107030695
If anything Shooter did pretty well managing the prima donna that Claremont was being in the 80s.
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>>107025889
They did #189-198 etc before doing any other Claremont shit, because those issues (plus the post-Mutant Massacre shit) had never been reprinted in color up until that point.

IIRC The Gift came out shortly after the Marvel Masterworks line finally reprint #176-188 in color. To fill in that gap, while waiting for the Masterworks to get to that point, since it was a couple of years before we got another MMW that collected half the contents of this TPB.
>>
>>107033004
It's always weird how Claremont is such a giant Alan Moore era Captain Britain fanboy yet everything he does with the Fury is always so fucking terrible.
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>>107035205
>IIRC Eve of Destruction is a very vaguely reworked and heavily truncated version of what Lobdell wanted to do.

And then it got fucked over AGAIN because Marvel wanted to rush Morrison's X-men debut, iirc. Which is why it starts so slow and suddenly it's on breakneck speed and has a completely shitty ending.
>>
Are any of the X-Men Epic volumes worth picking up? I like big fat comic collections and most of the ones I've picked up for other heroes have been pretty good.
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>>107031681
I am a big fan of the road trip arc too, JF Moore was a very competent writer
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>>107036291

Lobdell got his revenge though

(Note: this is a longstanding rumor)

When Casey was fired for selling like shit and being a worthless druggie, Lobdell volunteered to come back and write Uncanny. His only condition was that he be allowed to use ALL of the X-Men and that Morrison/Claremont would have to eat shit, due to their bad sales, and abandon their story plans in favor of letting Lobdell running the show. Claremont was willing to go along with this but Morrison threw a temper tantrum at having to share his toys and abandon his plans, since Lobdell allegedly knew about Morrison's plans to split Jean/Scott up and wanted to use them in Uncanny so as to effectively cockblock Morrison from having Scott fuck Emma. Morrison refused to share or be made to be subserviant to Lobdell even though Morrison's sales were so low that he couldn't make a case as to why he deserved to run things.

So Quesada told Lobdell no, but to avoid Lobdell leaking that they were breaking Scott/Jean up, told him that "they couldn't hire him back because Morrison was a faggot that didn't want to deal with the humilation of having Mr 90s X-Men outsell him and prove outright hat Morrison's reboot was a horrible failure selling for shit, because of the way Morrison was crapping on the fanbase like he was. Lobdell went public with this, after being snubbed a second time and it directly led to Bill Jemas ordering Frank Quitely fired (much to Morrison's anger and rage) and forcing him to take on Phil Jimenez as artist. Which was a huge thing, as Morrison never forgave Jimenez 4 hijacking Invisibles from him as Invisibles only sold well when Jimenez drew it and led to DC refusing to reprint ANY of the run save for the Jimenez issues, since Phil "was the star" and Morrison refused to work with him after that. All to boost sales, as Jemas was pissed off that Lobdell was right about how Morrison was sales poison and that a traditional 90s era X-Book would've outsold Morrison & Claremont
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>>107033092
>based individual
Ftfy
>>
>>107036476
Of the classic era, get V3 as it has the Steranko Polaris intro arc and the entire Neal Adams run.

V5 (Second Genesis) is also good as far being the definitive version of this era, collecting material that the Masterworks, Essentials, and Omnibus all omit.

The Gift is good for it's era and some prime John Romita Jr artwork plus Lifedeath II.

Avoid Mutant Genesis as they fucked it up turning it into a stealth X-Factor trade (complete with using only X-Factor cover art on the front and back), omitting the first two parts of Kings of Pain, including issues of X-Factor that should have been replaced with #273-277, and not ending with #280/X-Factor #70 so they could do a clean break and have the next volume start with X-Men V2 #1 and #281
>>
>>107036610
Alright, I'll add that to the list. I always loved X-Men as a kid, but it was hard as fuck to find issues because it was popular and sold the fuck out back then. So I had scattershot as fuck reading cycles of it and I kind of want to go back and get some nice fat books.
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>>107036574
Casey being a drug addict who really hates pop culture yet still does all that Man of Action shit will never not make me laugh
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>>107036574
Austen's X-Men was a godsend at the time, funny how Claremont and Morrison's fanbases have distorted opinions over time
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>>107036610
Any Wolverine recommends? I've also got epic vol 1 and 2 for him, and I enjoy the fuck out of those.
>>
>>107036667
>Austen's X-Men was a godsend at the time

People unironically liked Austen's run? Really?
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>>107036734
Everything was good until Holy Wars (which has aged better, after Casey's original plan leaked and it was revealed to be worse than Austens).

But Sacred Vows (where Havok dumped Lorna for Nurse Annie after Nurse Annie's evil son brainwashed Alex into dumping Lorna at the altar and everyone taking Annie's side when Lorna confronted her) was when everyone turned on Austen. Draco and She Lies With Angels was god-awful and by the time Austen had She-Hulk fuck Juggernaut, Austen had gone insane and war was raging between both sides.
>>
>>107036734
people liked it because it came out on time, Morrison run was later every issue
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>>107036647
Being a drug addict who's blackballed from DC and who can't be trusted to work on anything but rinky dink side projects at Marvel, because you are THAT big of a fuck up, can do that to someone.
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>>107033264
>he actually thinks that there are no weird fetishes with people in here
And why do you care what people find arousing? Are you so vanilla that you only like tits and that is enough for you? Let people have their fetishes and not be so judgemental.
>>
>>107036773
Morrison was only late for the first couple of months and #126 (which was supposed to be #125 but got delayed/expanded by one issue to get it out on time but Quitely still fucked it up). Once Igor came along replacing EVS, as the fill-in artist, it got back on time and Quitely was pretty much yanked for a major chunk of issues (#125-134) and fired after his last arc ran, allowing it to not only be released on time, but allowed Marvel to double ship it.
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>>107036734
X-Men fans hated Morrison at the time and he felt the same way about them
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>>107036783
t. diaperfag
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>>107036849
I mean, I had issues with Morrison at the time because it was such a radical departure from what came before, but even then I had a lot of issues with Austen's book.
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>>107036956
Just saying Morrison had an antagonistic attitude in interviews at the time
>>
Fascinating thread. Been a lot of fun reading through this one. Any other wild behind the scenes stories? Or maybe a link where I can read more about that sort of stuff?

I just got done putting together a reading list using this list: >>107016172

I've actually put the reading order together before, my wife read up to issue 215-ish of Uncanny along with most of the auxiliary stuff, but I lost my folder during n HD crash and haven't been assed to put it back together.

I'm going to follow what this >>107022843
kind anon said, and not blow through it (from Giant Sized 1 to Uncanny 200) in a single weekend .

>>107036574
Shocked to hear this. As an outsider to the franchise (grew up reading Spidey and Batman like the pleb I am), I was under the impression Newe X-Men was not only loved by fans but also sold very well. Huh...

I once tried to read Age of Apocalypse, after having heard the title for so many years, and couldn't figure out wtf was going on at all. I'm both curious and dreading getting there eventually.
>>
I feel that the X-Mn should all just die rather than continue to limp along like they are now, never changing never settling.
>>
>>107036849
>>107036976

Morrison saved X-Men fans from themselves
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>>107037722
>I once tried to read Age of Apocalypse
By publication order, or chronologically?
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>>107038624
Pic related. I just picked it up one day around the time the movie came out. I wasn't expecting the movie to be particularly faithful or anything, I'm not even sure what I was expecting. But that certainly wasn't it.

What's the general consensus on this story? It looks over bloated as all hell. But is it remembered fondly? I hear about it pretty often, but is that just because of how bad or bloated it is?

Truth be told, the event I'm most looking forward to is Inferno (80's version). Again, I know almost nothing about the actual event, but as a Spidey guy, I was flabberghasted by giant sharks and monsters in NYC.
>>
>>107017961
>>107019825
Don't read Excalibur to to see some crossovers.
I'd recommend Claremont/Davis 1-24, Davis/Davis 42-67 and Warren Ellis 83-103 and skip anything in between written by Lobdell.
>>
>>107024109
That’s way too much. Read half of that
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>>107035219
>That never happened.
He literally posted that it was alternate continuity in his opinion. I was there and his salt was palpable. I'm sure he and Barry resolved their differences afterward but one of Chris' bigger literary sins was creating characters with minimal to nonexistent backstory and keeping them like that (at another con I asked him about Arcade's backstory and his curt reply was "he has none"), which led to other writers filling it in whether he liked it or not.
>>
>>107008659
I don't think cape comics are for you then.
IMO M'Krann crystal is where Claremont's run starts to be great that's not to say it's shit before and it practically only gets better and better with every issue, with one or two exceptions, until it reaches absolute peak when Paul Smith takes the art duty.
>>
Is there a reading order for X-Men adn New Mutants? Navigating this shit is a disaster, especially when minis and Secret Wars come into it
>>
>>107034049
That Fantastic Four Great American Novel is such a wonderful site. Would love to more of those fan type site for other comic book characters. Any of you know of some?

>>107034049
Everyone text dumps it was the standard for comics and still is. Modern comics only great up text to fit in all over the page while old school comics dedicated one big box for the text. For all the Lee bashing, I always thought DC's Silver Age was littered with more text than Marvel's stuff. Marvel had narration and yes Lee had to do some quip/reference/explanation on each panel but over at DC each page is crammed with caption text, narration text and dialogue and those DC heroes sure liked to talk a lot. I think because Writers were scripting the comics, DC's pages always look crowed with too much going on in the reading but no actual visual excitement you get in say a Kirby page. Artists were dictating the tempo of the story and the layout of the story so they were at east visually a bit more easier to follow. As I type that last part I noticed how Lee always wanted to simplify stories for the readers while DC assumed the readers needed more explanations through dialogue.
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>>107040126
Check out the chronological torrents, but really I strongly suggest reading everything in publication order, just to watch how the X-universe organically grows. It's a treat to witness, and in my experience has only been rivaled by reading the first few years of Lee/Kirby/Ditko's Silver Age stories.

>>107039478
Honestly, I'd set a limit of one X-Men/New Mutants/X-Factor issue a day. That's enough. You shouldn't cram 17 years of development into a month-long marathon. It's not a race, and modern X comics are so terrible that there's no need to catch up either.

>>107038863
That trade was a bit overwhelming, there were later editions that collected the stories better. AoA was interesting as a product of its time, and people look back on it as mindless fun, really the first of its kind. It can stand alone, but the concept doesn't seem so unique now that Elseworlds/Flashpoints/yearly summer events have become the standard.
>>
>>107036667
there are a lot of deeply fucking retarded posts in this thread but lmao holy shit dude
>>
>>107022757
I too, enjoyed watching her go from "I don't wanna hurt people" to killing the leader of the Morlocks without hesitation or remorse. You don't see character progression like that very often.
>>
>>107038548
>>107040676
neck yourself you stupid drug addict
>>
>>107011028
This guy gets it, i love all of classic claremont, x men hasn't reached those heights again
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>>107013229
Fuck you, stroman is great
>>
When does new mutants get good? I'm halfway through the first TPB and it's an overwritten bore so far
>>
>>107021197
FF, silver surfer and x men are the only perspectives on cosmic marvel that i enjoy
>>
>>107041212
No he isn't
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>>107040854
>to killing the leader of the Morlocks without hesitation or remorse
she got better
>>
>>107041417
go back to /tv/ and stay there
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>>107041417
It stays the same until the art gets good
>>
>>107041855
I've read plenty of good 80s comics, this isn't one. At least so far.
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>>107041417
New Mutants is a meme, people only rate it for Bill Sinkywinky's art
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>>107036233

It's oddly not that usual for a comics writer or artist to be a massive fan of a character, yet completely fail to understand what makes them work.
>>
>>107036769
>Everything was good until Holy Wars (which has aged better, after Casey's original plan leaked and it was revealed to be worse than Austens).

What was it?
>>
>>107037722
>As an outsider to the franchise (grew up reading Spidey and Batman like the pleb I am), I was under the impression Newe X-Men was not only loved by fans but also sold very well. Huh...

It sold well initially, X-Men readers + Morrison's own fanbase + a heavily promoted starting point for new readers gave the book a big boost in sales, but by the time it ended, sales were closer to where they were before he started. Then his own fanbase left with him.

The divide between readers who loved and hated raged for years, but most of the people who hated it quit during his run, or afterwards. It seems like most people loved it because most people who didn't ended up quitting the fandom.
>>
>>107038863
>What's the general consensus on this story? It looks over bloated as all hell. But is it remembered fondly? I hear about it pretty often, but is that just because of how bad or bloated it is?

Age of Apocalypse is usually regarded as the best of the 1990s X-Men events, and a well-developed AU story with a lot of world-building and attention to detail, but it's hard to recommend for newer readers, because most of the appeal of it is seeing how different the AU versions of the characters are.
>>
>>107036956
The frustrating thing is that there was stuff in Austen's run that I liked, namely Juggernaut. But yeah, when I was first able to start seriously buying comics because I was in high school and had a (part-time) job and thus money to buy them regularly it was earlyish in Austen's run, the issue where Northstar joins actually, and I remember it being divisive/disliked even then.

I'm not the biggest fan of Morrison's run either but for whatever issues I had with Morrison's actual stories and other decisions from that era (no colorful costumes) that early 2000s status quo is maybe my overall favorite period of the X-Men. The first half or so of Claremont's is the best and I have an affection for the early '90s as well but the status quo of the Morrison era just felt so dynamic. The status quo lent itself to having such a wide variety of stories that I don't think periods before or after have allowed. You had your more standard books like X-Treme and Uncanny but the status quo of the time allowed for crime drama (District X), low stakes teen soap opera (New Mutants/Academy X), spy thriller (Mystique), pop culture satire (X-Statix) and likely a lot of other things I'm forgetting. Even Exiles I think is only a book that could've really happened with the "we can do anything with the X-Men" energy running through the line at the time.

It's maybe why I like Scott/Emma as a thing so much as well. I mean I like both characters in general and think they're great together but they're also emblematic of that entire period. Mutants (and the X-Men) were entering a new era that required new people to lead the way forward with vigor and new ideas and Scott/Emma pretty well represented that; things had moved on past Xavier and Magneto. Which was kind of the point of Morrison's run even if I think he went about it in some kind of bad ways because he didn't really like the X-Men.
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>>107036574
>led to DC refusing to reprint ANY of the run save for the Jimenez issues, since Phil "was the star" and Morrison refused to work with him after that.
Do you mean individual issues? Because the series was originally all (all three volumes/relaunches) reprinted in four-eight issue trades from 1996-2001, with no issues skipped because of the art.
Jimenez did have some good art in that series though.
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>>107045203

If that anon is correct, the events he's talking about would have been in 2002, so it would mean no further reprints.
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>>107036574

This couldn't have been worse than Austen. If sales were bad on all of the books, why was only Casey fired?
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>>107041417
Around issue 13-15, and especially starting from #18-54. Make sure you are reading it with Uncanny X-Men, because it's meant to compliment it. Reading it by itself as a trade is a mistake. You shouldn't read something like that as if it were written yesterday.
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>>107043973
No it's good. Only goes to shit after Claremont leaves because Simonson is a fairly middling writer.
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>>107036734
people forget that Chuck Austen was looked at as the biggest rising star in comics. He broke in working with Alan Moore in Miracle Man and his Marvel MAX work was looked at well (no clue why). But his X-Men tanked his entire career.
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>>107038863
>the event I'm most looking forward to is Inferno (80's version).
I really like Inferno, it's where Bret Blevin's art just shines so perfectly. He's got this amazing mix of horror and cartooniness that works so well in that event
>>
a lot of comments about X-men never recovering from the 90s but I have to disagree, there was a time in the mid to late 2000s and early 2010s that had the line doing great stuff.
>X-Men Legacy
under Carey and Spurrier it stands up as one of the best X-Men runs, I'd add X-Club to that too.
>District X
Loved it, it's a forgotten great book
>Uncanney X-Force
many people have said it's the best X-book ever
>X-Statics
haven't read it, but heard a lot of great things about it
>PAD X-Factor
again, never read it yet but hear good things.

I think that period is my favorite time for X-men
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>>107048603
>many people have said it's the best X-book ever
Yeah well they're full of shit. Only the front half of that run is any good and that has more to do with the artwork. If you want good Remender read Deadly Class.
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>>107048637
he has a lot of good books IMO. Rage of Ultron is one of my fav Avengers stories
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>>107048693
Yeah he does, but in almost every one of them (including the one you listed) the art is superior to the writing. Only Deadly Class I can say the writing is a main draw (and even then man, the artwork for that series is incredible). Remender must be a joy to work with.
>>
>>107041417
>>107043973
c'mon, new mutants gets good once magik enter
it's comfy as fuck
even some of the simonson era isses are ok
my favorite "teen" book ever
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>>107048693
>Rage of Ultron
I dig this art
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>>107048603
Do you like Joss Whedon's Astonishing X-Men?
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>>107048832
I started reading it because it showed up in the reading order I was following and now it's my favorite book. I look forward to seeing what writers will do with the original roster after Claremont leaves the book. I'm sure they will get used in other books, I've seeing Magik and Sunspot in other books. But I stopped reading recent/modern books so I can follow them in release order.
I like every one of them even Cypher.
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>>107048637
I don't like Remender's habit of sudden character resurrections (Low being an offender). Would Deadly Class annoy me?
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>>107040126
>Is there a reading order...

see >>107016172
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>>107048603
District X and X-Statix were early 2000s as both were pre-House of M which was 2005 and they're the type of books that only could've happened in that Morrison era of mutants as a growing population.

There's the odd book or story I like post-HoM but all of it lacks the creative spark the Morrison era status quo provided.
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>>107048893
Yeah. Forgot to mention it but it's what i recommend to people trying to get into the X-men because it doesn't require you to know too much continuity and isn't interupted by events or crossovers
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>>107049162
I like it because it recreates that cosmic adventure vibe without going full Marvel Cosmic, same way Claremont used to do, and he also makes Scott a badass and show people realizing why he's the leader regardless of power level measuring or anything like that.
I think that re-reading that book after knowing so much more about X-Men as I know now will pay off nicely.
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>>107035219
>Not really. The 1998 roster change done for the 35th Anniversary (and Gambit joining/the Phoenix subplot getting dropped), basically was the moment when the X-Men franchise went into full-on free fall and never recovered until four years later when Morrison took over.

How ironic. Jean coming back to life mortally wounded the franchise in the 80s.
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>>107049246
To me it's the opposite. It feels like a cheap imitation of what came before with some dumb stuff tossed in. It's the comic book equivalent of Miyazaki's quote about how animators nowadays are anime fans.
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>>107049616
Samefag but I'll also forever hate Astonishing because at the time Marvel had a "dead is dead" rule because Quesada hated cheap resurrections. The rule completely screwed up Claremont's plans on X-Treme because he killed Psylocke off early in the series with the intention of having her come back in her original British body but right after he killed her Quesada implemented that rule and squashed the idea.

Then like two or three years later he allows Whedon to bring back Colossus with the absolute flimsiest justification ever to the point where it was pretty widely mocked even at the time ("dead by your standards") all so he could use him as a self-insert to fuck his waifu because he does nothing throughout Astonishing, isn't overly important aside from "NYET I WILL NOT DESTROY BREAKWORLD'S CORE" and in fact has done jack shit in the 15 years since his resurrection to go with the jack shit he was doing for the 15 years between Mutant Massacre and his death.

Colossus' death was pretty well done, he's a major character who had done nothing for a long time and it's clear nobody really has much interest in or ideas for given that he's done nothing since coming back so his death has impact without affecting much. Bringing him back completely erased that for no tangible benefit at all.
>>
Read this week's Uncanny X-Men

Rahne and Joseph (yes, Magneto clone Joseph) are dead now. I'm also now certain that Hope was supposed to die last issue seeing how awkwardly she was inserted in to this issue.
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>>107049728
So I guess Rosenberg's marching orders are to have the X-men go down fighting before some sort of reset when Age of X-man ends?
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>>107049769
No, I'm pretty sure he's just a bad writer who can't figure out any way to keep the stakes high without gratuitous character death.
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>>107049700
You are a fucking idiot. First off Whedon gave Collossus more to do than almost every writer but Claremont. The whole breakworld was about him being conflicted on how to take destiny and him finally taking it for himself. And as for all the X writer who waifu Kitty Whedon is one of the very few who actually wrote her well.

Also source of the Dead is Dead from Quesada. Cause under his EiC days the revolving door of death was if anything more open.
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>>107049829
Colossus dying was the best thing he ever did
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>>107049700
I don't think Kitty is Joss Whedon's waifu.
The way his run ended is enough to prove that. And also a big "fuck you" to the writers who have a boner for her.
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>>107049925
There's a disturbing number of X-men that is true about
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>>107049728
Did Elixir show up?
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>>107050006
>I don't think Kitty is Joss Whedon's waifu.

She was, he just thinks he's cool for killing a character (Coulson, Quicksilver, that guy from Firefly in the movie)
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>>107048988
Doug is a nice kid with a interesting personality, would be nice if Claremont had more time to develop his powers.
>>
>>107036678
Just read the Hama run and the Fran Tieri run (which is dumb fun)

>>107037722
Between Casey, Claremont, and Austen's run? Morrison outsold them. But Morrison's run never EVER matched the high sales mark of the Lobdell era and this was huge sticking point with Marvel. To the point that they basically told Morrison "Your book is coming out every month or else" and firing Quitely because they didn't want to deal with his lateness shit.

It's one of the reasons Whedon made a huge point to contractually force Marvel to keep Cassady on Astonishing (Morrison naturally assumed that Quesada would let New X-Men come out late as fuck, let alone assumed EVS could rush out an issue if push came to shove). And why Claremont was told he had no choice but to use Wolverine in his fourth run, since Marvel came to the "conclusion" that Xtreme sold poorly because there was no Wolverine.

>>107038986
Ellis's run make zero sense unless you read the Lobdell run (#68-82). Ellis's run continues a TON of Lobdell plotlines, as Ellis was a new writer at the time and basically subserviant to X-Editorial at the time.

>>107039782
Claremont actually gave Arcade his backstory in an aside and then revisited it in Classic X-Men.

>>107041417
Bill S's run is the usual moment fans pick as the jump on point, but I would go a little farther back to #13-14 when Magik joins.

>>107044419
The story from UXM #400 was the true origin. The leader of the Church of Humanity also, is a psychic vampire who EATS parts of peoples minds/personalities and in Nightcrawler's case, they at the part of his personality that was religious. Effectively creating a hole in his soul/changing Kurt's very identity, so Casey could turn Nightcrawler into an edgy atheist.
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>>107044546
Also, it's super fucking long and a huge chunk of the story is mindless filler and could have been cut out or condensed.
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>>107050760
Asking for a 2000s book to sell as much as a 90s speculator book is dumb as hell. That time had long since passed that shouldn't be a topic at all when talking sales.

I am one who thinks Marvel was right in getting rid of Quietly. His art didn't fit the book and delays on your main book can kill sales. Honestly EVS and Silvestri blew him out of the water on most of the stuff, except the story about Jean and Emma going into prof X's mind, that was the ony issue of Quietlys X-Men that i liked.
>>
>>107045607
Claremont was willing to play ball with Morrison, even if it was a passive aggressive manner where he shitted on him every chance he got. Plus, Marvel didn't want bad PR of firing Claremont while the Singer films were coming out. Especially after Singer based X2 on God Loves, Man Kills.

Casey meanwhile was a complete fuck-up and more to the point, was super fucking bitter than all of his ideas got shut down. Casey kept pushing Jean/Logan (Morrison did too but he backed down, in wake of the backlash), wanted pretty much all of the "normal" X-Men gone and replaced with deformed/inhuman looking X-Men across the board, kept pushing for non-traditional artists (he wanted Ashley Wood full-time; Marvel gave him Ian Churchill instead and when that didn't work and when Wood's annual came out and was widely reviled by everyone for being incomprehensible with everyone looking like scribbles and utterly unreadable, agreed to have Phillips draw the book as a compromise)and kept doing a huge amount of drugs to try and out Morrison Morrison (to the point that Casey later admitted that he spent all of his X-Men money on drugs).
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>>107051005
This was huge thing, especially since at the time Joe Casey was to X-Men fans what Dan Slott was to Spider-Man fans during the JMS run: someone fans wanted desperately to be the main guy and usher in a new golden age for the franchise. To be the heir to Claremont. He also had a TON of sympathy from fans on account of how Harras fired him from Cable on behalf of Rob Liefeld and how that negatively impacted the Twelve stor.

But Casey didn't want this and he sure as shit didn't want to be the savior to fans or the next Kurt Busiek. His experience with Liefeld and Harras had left him super fucking bitter and jaded and resentful towards fans since in the meantime, he had gone to work at DC and wrote Wildcats and hanging around with Joe Kelly and Jeph Loeb, who both hated comic fans and not being able to do "artsy" indie shit and get rich.

So when Harras finally gave him the keys to the kingdom, he went out his way to be such a shit that Harras had to fire his ass.
>>
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127 KB JPG
The tl;dr of X-Men seems to pretty much be "Claremont was God, went nuts, and then everything since has been a long, slow slide into ever deeper pits of raw shit", punctuated by an assload of failed reboots.
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>>107051067
Absolutely fucking not. It just changed to become more standard capeshit that was pulked more and more into editorial. X-Men would still be the biggest comic force if Ike didn't try to kill it.
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>>107049275
To be fair, people were chomping at the bit in 1997 for the Seagle/Kelly Dark Phoenix Sequel. It had a TON of hype, especially since Seagle was hyping it as the true sequel to the Phoenix Saga, and not a lame ass side story like Davis's Phoenix sequel (#42-50) was.

Having it denied was a HUGE blow to the X-Franchise, as far as "fuck you for wanting this story, we're giving you more Gambit/Rogue shipper shit whether you want it or not!".

This, BTW, is also why Rogue and Gambit were pretty much split up during the second Claremont run and ultimately exiled to the Claremont containment book Xtreme X-Men. It basically killed X-Fans ever wanting to see the two characters again in any major form or shape front and center in the franchise.

>>107049700
I should note that Whedon had no choice but to bring Colossus back. Dead was dead was rendered null and void by this point via the reveal that Quesada only pushed it to keep Magneto being Xorn a secret.

When Whedon took the job, there was a lot of back and forth shit: Whedon got Marvel to agree to let the book be super fucking late if necessary so that Whedon could have Cassady draw his entire run. And in return, Whedon had to concede to putting the X-Men back into their costumes and have his first arc be the editorially mandated resurrection of Colossus.

Ironically, this pissed Claremont off mightily, so much so that Quesada finally caved and let Claremont bring Betsy back. But by this point, the Vargas storyline had been wrapped and Claremont had stopped giving a shit, so he brought her back in the laziest way imaginable.
>>
>>107050662
Wash died simply because Tudyk didn't want to do the movie and only agreed if Joss would kill him off since everyone thought Firefly would be an ongoing movie franchise.

This backfired huge and Wash's death basically was one of the main contributing factors for why Serenity killed the franchise dead.
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>>107051108
>It basically killed X-Fans ever wanting to see the two characters again in any major form or shape front and center in the franchise.
You haven't been reading any comics have you?
>>107051121
The franchise was many years dead already. What the fuck are you talking about? It was only resurrected cause of fans crying for more.
>>
>>107051067
Nah there's plenty of good but things just become more divisive. Personally I think the X-Men were fine until around the time of Onslaught when editorial really started taking over. Then it was bad for the latter half of the '90s, rebounded during the Morrison era and never really recovered from House of M.

Since House of M it's either been "we're all dying out" stories or status quos with no actual direction and the line has just been getting progressively worse since Schism until the current Rosenberg and Colors period which I just can't even make the effort to care about. Bendis is one of the all time worst X-Men writers, Battle of the Atom is far and away my least favorite X-Men story ever and I really don't have high hopes for Hickman.
>>
>>107051210
House of M killed some stuff but hardly killed the line. It still had some great books. What killed it was Ike, his hate for not having X movies under his umbrella was enough for him to try to make Inhummans the new X-Men. Thank god that whole thing burned in hell
>>
>>107051332
Nothing with the creative energy of that period. I said earlier that the Morrison era felt like the X-books could do anything; any story in any genre. Everything after House of M lost that feeling and with it a lot of what made the X-books dynamic.

Then again I also really, really don't like the Yost/Kyle New X-Men.
>>
>>107051367
What about Pad X-Factor, uncanny X-Force, Spurrier X-Men Legacy. Hell even if you don't like Schism it led to an interesting and actually defined X-Men time.
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>>107051067
I'd say that they managed to get their shit on track after de-morrisoning their books and keeping a tighter ship and what they liked from that run. Even got to try a sort of multi book epic narrative by building up on post-age of M developments until Perlmutter caused the Great Editorial Collapse.

>>107051210
>>107051332
>>107051367
>I said earlier that the Morrison era felt like the X-books could do anything; any story in any genre.

Interesting way to put it. I think you may be right, but I also think that was a company wide problem. It was the height of event era and those set the mood of all books.

>>107051457
>Pad X-Factor, uncanny X-Force, Spurrier X-Men Legacy.
They weren't that different. Compare New Mutants, Claremont Uncanny and Excalibur, even stuff like Cable (both askani'son era and the weird as fuck late 90s comic). There wasn't just different artstyles, but also different thematic elements, radically different settings and issues handled by each comic. Excluding some elseworlds, the franchsie didn't really get that big again - 2000s comics shared a single setting and theme elements sans for elseworlds runs.

Nowadays we are lucky if we have 1 comic that deviates from the mainline (thought those tend to be extremely good if you ask me - legacy vol 2)
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>>107049829
>Also source of the Dead is Dead from Quesada.

How fucking new are you? Dead is Dead is well known to be his idea. Same with pushing for no smoking ban on all characters. And demanding House of M erased most of mutants because he didn't like most new OC characters being mutants by default.
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>>107051332
>House of M killed some stuff but hardly killed the line

But it got the ball running. The main X-books began slowly sucking more and more with Decimation, and any X-fan would agree that it was only the satellite books that made the X-men fun to read anymore. And now even those kinda suck outside of Gambit and Rogue's marriage book, which mostly coasts off the chemistry of their relationship rather than the actual plots.
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>>107044848
THIS. Anyone who hated that era needs to neck themselves. The X-comics have been stale for over a decade now trying to move on from Morrison's status quo. Before that they were also super stale.
Morrison actually made things better despite his misgivings in the writing department. And whatever the fuck weapon omega arc was.
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>>107052177
>Morrisonfag hating on the best decade of X-Comics
never fail on /co/. I bet you never read X-Men Legacy
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>>107033153
>Scarlet Bitch just stands there smiling

Mutant or Inhuman, she deserved to be destroyed by Benis
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>>107030695
Elaborate please. What did he do wrong?
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>>107052240
the Quesada hater is all mad that he went back on his word that dead is dead, but Shooterfag is mad that he did the same thing. I don't understand the logic
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I'm amazed the thread is still alive. It's been ages since a decent comfy X-Thread
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>>107051017
Loeb loves comic fans though
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Will writers never stop shitting on Rachel?
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>>107052535
thankfully no
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>>107052535
I mean she was a shit character to begin with so that's pretty normal.
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X-Men was always better at creating spin off books and stories than actual books and stories.
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>>107052769
Um, unless you mean specifically X-men satellite books, no?
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>>107034049
>Roy "Purple Pilled" Thomas

What does that even mean?
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>>107026871
I don't love how no one ever mentions or refers to the fact Magneto once rised fucking R'lyeh to the surface and used it as his personal pleasure palace.
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>>107052895
I imagine it has to do with Roy's propensity for purple prose.
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>>107051121
>Wash's death basically was one of the main contributing factors for why Serenity killed the franchise dead.

Lol how do you figure? Pretty sure they took a gamble on a movie based on a cult show and the gamble did not pay off when the movie bombed.
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>>107031652
I stopped reading the book shortly after the Seige Perilous happened. I just didn't like anything about what they did it did to everyone afterwards. For instance, Nimrod was one of my favorite villains. After that the character was essentially gone. And then turning Storm into a kid. The whole thing was just dumb.
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>>107008659
It's just not for you, dude. I'm old and read these as a teenager. The whole thing was top tier from start to finish and was almost universally liked at the time.
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>>107052685
>>107052638
I hate you. She's a good character who got hampered by being closetted lesbian early and then fucked by Jean coming back. Jean is really to blame for most of the X problems but Rachel is a major one



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