>learn Japanese >start reading translated manga comparing it to raw >the ENTIRE dialogue is a completely different topic than what's in the raws. >all translated manga is made up bullshit the translator injected into the story >reads like fanfiction U-uh...I guess I'm going to have to rewatch every anime and re-read every manga if I want the real story. How long did it take you guys to find out that translations are just as bad as dub?
when i read this post and realized it meant something completely different in the original japaneseroughly translated, it said "OP IS A FAG"
What does that squid's butt smell like?
>>187150022just because you just finished all your rosetta stone courses, doesnt mean you can actually translate properly and in fact, the reason everything looks so bad to you is because YOU are the retard that cant translate properly
>>187150022>How long did it take you guys to find out that translations are just as bad as dub?We been knew. You don't even have to know Japanese to figure that out. And some shit just gets lost in translation no matter what.
>>187150098>t. dumb American who is too lazy to learn Japanese.>>187150107I never see people complain about it. I think it's cause all of /a/ is too lazy and dumb to get educated, that they try to rationalize it.
>>187150061>Anime girl butts living rent free in your headEvery thread, "haha, w-what do anime girl farts smell like? haha.."
>>187150167Yeah I'm okay with that.
>>187150022reminds me of the revenge classroom translations, manga is shit but some of the translations make it even more shit.
>>187150098what a bad thread
>>187150141congratulations on completing your rosetta stone courses
>>187150230You're projecting kid, I don't even know who Rosetta Stone is. Your fixation on them makes it sound like you took their course.
OP is completely correct and this thread is really just full of jealous eops.>>187150230Say Rosetta Stone again, bimbo.
>>187150022Post some examples
>>187150061Go shove your face into her butt and find out, autist. >>187150230Name a better way to learn a language and don't say the college meme.
>>187150277>no uso, OP since you finished all of rosetta stones japanese language lessons, where do you go from there?
出来ないs are seething
americucks should feel bad for having such a shitty language, at their point of view every language is hard to learn. Thankfully portuguese is one of the most complicated languages of the planet so learning moon runes it's like learning as a baby
>>187150022Yes, all translations are wrong. This is common knowledge.
>>187150022Shh the EOPs hate being reminded that most fan "translations" are machine TLs edited by ESL speakers.
>>187150167They come for the free rent, but stay because I wont let them leave
>>187150401This. No one can properly translate japanese. To this day it's still an indecipherable language.
>>187150167>landwhale with a raging inferiority complex towards cute anime girlsEvery thread
All I got out of learning Japanese was finding out that I really hate the Japanese language
>>187150022I am actually tempted to start some kind of manga translation reviews.Something similar to this: https://legendsoflocalization.com/final-fantasy-vi/However, finding free time is proving difficult.
>>187150385OK bootleg Spanish. Keep thinking that.
>>187150574Curse the japa man who tought "Oh, look at that chinese drawings, lets take them to our country"
>>187150473It's still (((rent free)))Stockholm syndrome changes nothing.
>>187150385>spanish for monkeys
>>187150620>>187150616We are the 2nd country with more japanese people suck it, i can feel my eyes getting more closed and my iq growing stronger
>>187150674I was really describing more of a kidnapping scenario
>>187150385>one of the most complicated languages in the world>natively spoken by monkeysThe only reason Portuguese (human) have higher English proficiency rates than other latin speakers is that half their country is diaspora.
Why are translators so lazy to translate "itadagimas"
>>187150771Exactly how would you translate it?
>>1871503375Toubun no Hanayome is a pretty egregious mistranslation. It's actually supposed to be 3Toubun no Hanayome, Yotsuba and Itsuki are the triplet's cousins who are visiting from Germany.
>>187150022You just hit the spike on the Dunning-Kruger effect graph.Your feeling of self-importance will subside soon.
>learning japanese when you could be learning a language with actual utility like Russian, Arabic, or Chinese
>>187150834Also Uesugi isn't their tutor, he just likes to hang out.
>>187150022Wrong. You do realize lots of people here can read moon, right? I'd make different decisions here and there but generally translators get the point across.
>>187150873>Wanting to deal with any of those people
>>187150873>Not learning for fun
>>187150873>with actual utility like RussianKnowing Russian is useful?
>>187150890Depends on what you read/watch. As much as people here hate them Crunchyroll et. al generally do a decent job these days, but when you start getting into old stuff it generally starts to get pretty terrible.I've been watching some old Conan forcesubs and it's painfully obvious that they're just reusing manga lines when available and taking their best guess with anime-original dialogue.
>>1871508345toubun? The official localization is 4toubun.
>>187150022This is why I am constantly enraged by dubs and localization attempts. the fact people watch/read what is basically fanfiction and judge the story based on it. (final fantasy 14 and other japanese games and of course a ton of anime) Haven't noticed it as much in manga unless the one translating it added his "flavor" here and there for his effort (which does piss me off but it's not as bad as messing with situations and topics.)
>>187150928Russia is the largest country in the world by landmass alone, so you'd be bound to get some use out of it. The only use Japanese is going to net you is internet bragging rights over being able to watch Taiwanese telenovellas without subtitles.
>>187150976Are you retarded?
>>187150976>>187150995literal spergs can't even learn a simple language. Next thing you're going to tell me is that Nino isn't Muslim.
>>187150771"I humbly accept"ez pz
>>187150519It's kind of a shit language. 3 fucking alphabets, no one is this retarded
>>187150022thanks for the headsup, gary gato gozaymoss
>>187150574Their grammar is hard but at least they don't have the ａｂｓｏｌｕｔｅ retardation of English pronunciation.
>>187150519Not even Japanese know what the Japanese are saying. That is why they drop the subject of most of their sentences and just pray that nobody realizes that they have no idea what's going on.
>>187151108This is sort of getting into translating intention territory. It would be life if you translate every formal introduction as "please take care of me"
>>187150346>the college meme.enjoy not being able to handle a real talk
>>187150627To be fair they didn't have anything back then, or more likely they were exiled chinese or proto koreans who only had chinese and took what they had. The actually retarded part is when they realized they needed something better, and then said let's make two different things based on the chinkshit and then also keep the chinese characters we use day to day
>implying anyone knows moon
>>187150022A lot of jokes - without background cultural understanding or minor idiosyncrasies - are almost non-translatable.I don't think they do it on porpoise, but they have to create something that is similair in essence without loosing any of the effects that a joke is supposed to have.So yes, I do realize, but I also understand. I don't think it's necessarily bad, but if you want an "unedited" reference of Japanse comedy lines, then you really do have to learn Japanese to a certain extent.
>>187150385>portuguese is one of the most complicated languages of the planet baitu
>Anon, you know Japanese right? What is he saying?
>>187151273It really is, portuguese has fucking retarded rules that even brazilians can't understand right if they not really need to
>>187151334he's saying "ching chong ching chong ching"
>>187150022While what you say is true sometimes, the fact that you know a second language doesn't mean that you can translate from it. Sometimes it may be necessary to change the whole dialoge to fit the bigger narrative or visual composition of the manga.
>>187150022>all translated manga is made up bullshit the translator injected into the storyLiterally false but sure it's the case in quite a few.
>>187151334Is this a trick question?
>>187151373>>187151334CHINA NUMBA 1
>>187151413>french that highdoubt
>>187151401I think a really clear example of this is, in fact, Japanese itself. Japanese is so fucking contextual that literally translating it sounds like caveman speak. Even something like "hai" has, off the top of my head, three meanings, one of which is "no" depending on context.
>>187151055Russia doesn't have manga
>>187151413The catch with English is that it has really inconsistent pronunciation, but you can get ideas across a little easier (one time someone rambled to me that it had something to do with dutch influence and the word "do", but I can only take that with a fat grain of salt)
>>187151510they do have isekai though
>>187151544Oh wait, it was welsh, not dutch
>>187151585WOW ISEKAIWhat more could you ever ask for???
>>187150167>Anime girl butts living rent free in your headYes that is exactly the case, what of it?
>>187151493Guess that explains why all their stories are full of misunderstandings
>>187150708What?? Your Uma Delica is evolving into a Soulless Bugman?Protip: 105 times zero is still zero.
>>187151192The Americans should have just forced the Japanese language to become romanized when they occupied them, instead of letting them keep their wacky kanji and whatnot.
>>187150385The US Foreign Service rates Portuguese as a Category 1 language, meaning it's easy for English speakers to learn.
>>1871517111 means hard not easy
>>187151413It's mathematically provable that the most efficient language you can possible create is not distinguishable from random noise (maximum of information entropy), so I don't really think that means much.
>>187151743Category 1 is 24-30 weeks to become proficient. Japanese, Chinese, Korean, and Arabic are Category IV with an ETA of 88 weeks to proficiency.
>>187150597DO IT MOTHER FUCKER DO IT. PLEASE I BEG YOU
>>187151834What's so hard about korean
>>187150873>Arabic or ChineseIf I'm going to learn a second language, I want to it be used to talk to people who AREN'T subhumans
Lots of butthurt "translators" in this thread.
>>187151541>nip trimmed down to the bare minimum>english and other languages left uneditedNip isn't the only language with brevity and implied subjects.If I wanted Jeff to go push the crate I could say "Jeff can you push the crate over there" or I could say "Jeff push the crate" or just point at the crate and say "Jeff push it!"The high prevalence of contextual clues in Japanese compared to other languages is because their "base" information rate is so low in the first place.
>>187150873>actual utility>arabicWhat are you gonna do, become a terrorist or something with your knowledge of arabic?
I really want an Ika S3. And Splatoon 2 ika set.
>>187150385At least people don't hate playing video games with me.
Don’t open, this is a very scary Ika.
People always say this but I occasionally read through raws (admittedly I'm nowhere near fluent but I can generally grasp the general topic of what's being said) and I've never run into a case where the two are completely different. There's certainly nuances lost in translation but that affect any translation unless it's extremely well done. Sometimes jokes or sayings that can't be directly translated are modified to work in English (sometimes it works really well and other times not so much) but I don't consider that what OP's talking about. Maybe I just happen to read things with decent translators. There are small things that annoy me though like reversing character names or "translating" to the first name when the character actually said the last name or replacing senpai with a character name, but again, that doesn't seem like what OP is talking about.
>>187152300Dat tentacle enpera though.
>>187152339Because cool magazines like Monthly Dragon Age and Dragon Age EX which contains stuff /a/ always demands is never translated
>>187151585Why is everyt fiction about fucking tanks and shit for slavs? And I thought the yanks loved their army shit.
>>187152496If Americans like army shit that much they just join it. Most the military fetishizing stuff here is just action movies and shit like Tom Clancy novels
>>187152273a shame her outfit did not return in splatoon 2
>>187152496You've never been to Russia have you? The end of WWII has a holiday in Russia and I've been there during that. I've never seen as much military celebration in the US as I did in Russia on that day. There are a lot of people in the US though apparently that think military parades are fascist shit. Trump wanted one when he was elected and people were pushing back against it saying it's shit that only happens in North Korea or Russia.
>>187152158i would say nitpicking the original methodology is justified, though they might be reaching to give the idea that japanese is no different than the other languages.
>>187152496They don't have anything else. It's just turnips and old cold war shit
>>187152577>You've never been to Russia have you?Obviously no, but I would.
>>187152626The US already has borderline propaganda when it comes to its military. Might as well have cool parades while they're at it. It's pretty hypocritical imo.
>>187150928Yes, if you like to travel to shitholes.
>>187152405Translation errors are very common. Look harder.
>>187152699Translation errors aren't the same as the text or dialogue being completely different like someone's making it up instead of translating.
>>187150022There's no such thing as a perfect translation. Something will always be lost in the process, and the translator's bias will always come through. If you want the actual story then learn Japanese. If you want to bitch and moan about every translation being wrong, then put your Japanese 101 skills to the test and do it yourself. As a translator, you quickly realize that it's much more of an art than a science. The only problem with this is when people are dumb enough to take subs at literally at face value instead of looking at the broader concepts.
>>187151696It would render japanese unusable because of of kanji homonyms, which you would know if you'd attempted to read hiragana only text for kids (ironically difficult)
I want to become Chino chan
There is a difference between a direct translation and localisation.A direct translation is often awkward and doesn't take cultural differences into account; there is more to a language than just words. There are all sorts of "shared knowledge" in a culture. Imagine translating all of the bizarre idioms you come across directly into some other language. They'd have no fucking idea what you're talking about.Localisation is about making something which actually makes sense to the target audience, but hopefully preserve the original's intent. It is not a perfect translation of the original, though.
>>187150873The only Arabic that would actually be useful in your entire life is allasnackbar
>>187152496It's a revanchism thing. Russia is obsessed with a victories of the past. And even more obsessed with defeats. Like in Cold war.
>>187152646Would be nice to visit Russia.
>>187151334This is from Flying Witch right? Even she didn't understand what the fuck was coming from his mouth.
>>187151413what the fuck is that 1.08? You understand more than what is conveyed? In English, the joke of the languages?
>>187151334This sounds and reads like gibberish to me.
>>187153057If that image is from what I'm thinking of, the base (1.0) was Vietnamese. So English conveys more information than Vietnamese while language with under a 1 convey less. Don't ask me why they picked Vietnamese for the base.
>>187153057It's from >>187151541
>>187150022>would be content just to be able speak and understand the spoken language because kanji are retarded>also want to be able to read mango and books written in japanese fuck
>>187153057>what the fuck is that 1.08? You understand more than what is conveyed? In English, the joke of the languages?Basically says that english transmits more information with fewer words. That's why is very efficient.
>>187150385You can't even master english
>>187151493So of like various sentence and words in english can have completely different implications depending on how you say it, (like emphasizing certain words or the intonation), which is not straightfoward to put into text.
>>187152775It's not like nips hold up what kanji they want to say when speaking a homonym and they get by fine. It would just add a layer of complexity to reading for those wanting to learn. One that is hopefully more than offset by the removal of thousands of kanji.
>>187150022>he doesnt knowdub is actually the canon retard everybody knows that and now imagine what the t/n means
>>187153240Sure, but worse depending on the less context you have
>>187153168that's interesting to know, from what very little i know of japanese there's a fair degree of politeness/seniority in language as well as things like honorifics so i can see why that would be the case, as well as all the reading the air stuff where you don't actually say your true feelings ever
>>187153268You might be trolling but non-jungle cultures need text and without kanji speakers would soon forget the distinction of homonyms.
>>187152156Oh no no no! First Janies now Tranies. Who would've thought that working unpaid for other people would lead to such low quality output. People who have actual skill in translating would not have the time to work for free.
I wonder why Japanese publishers don’t hire proper translators and deliver the contents to the world faster than shitty fansubs. They should be able to make a huge profit by that easily.
>>187150873Maybe Chinese because we will live under Chinese super power one day but definitely not Russian or Arabic
>>187151696>fucking up your written language for the convenience of foreignersOptimising your script for learning rather than use is retarded.
>>187150167I completely agree. BRAPfags are worse than futafags
>>187153444>huge profit>from gaijin pirates
>>187153444Cause it's far better to be native in the target language and advanced learner of the source language and Japan doesn't have enough native english speakers.
>>187153392Their rice farmer ancestors spoke Japanese hundreds of years ago and never learned how to read or write a single kanji.
>>187153355Yeah, personally I don't like japanese as a language. It's very archaic and sometimes it's very hard to catch the context, be it for the context itself or for the cultural differences.
>>187153444because all "proper" translators in big companies have been taken over by SJW's with an agenda of promoting feminism and other nonsense. They will purposely change dialogue to fit a particular political narrative.
>>187150167>people think about sexYes, that is indeed a thing that human males do. What horror.
What WOULD be the best way to start learning again? I did the college courses before but I forgot most everything. Rosettastone? Genki? Mobile tutor apps?
>>187152156this they cant even complete an n4 basically jp larpers in here
>>187153444Westerners don't buy anything other than the big shounens and occasional shoujoshit
>>187153722https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ky%C5%8Diku_kanjihttp://test.u-biq.org/Learn in the same order that regular Japanese people do? Learn by each grade level, then take the test associated with that grade. So do elementary first, then take elementary school test. Your top priority outside of that would be learning all common words in Japan. The obscure ones you will google as they appear in your life. Also read elementary level books/manga.
>>187150928You can talk to people in Counter strike
>>187152577>The end of WWII has a holiday in RussiaThe end of the Great Patriotic/Germany's capitulation, rather. The Japanese front continued for a while after that and we don't have a holiday for that ending.But yeah it's mostly limp dick-waving to pretend we're still a big strong relevant empire.
>>187153444Some Japanese publishers do do their own international distribution. It's not any faster though. I've been waiting months (maybe over a year) for the first volume of Witch Hat Atelier to come out, released in the US by Kodansha, and it just came out the other day. French and Italian companies seem significantly faster and also more likely to license smaller series that will never be licensed in the US.
>>187150928none of those are useful except if you want to live in those placesrussian you have literature at least i guess
>>187153637You can be illiterate in any country but that's not something to be advocated.
>>187153168Not less words, less time. Languages with poor density per word/syllable tend to be spoken faster to compensate.
>>187153941Excuse me what.
>>187153545But they're cute anime girls doing it! It's different.
>>187153941>dubs is awful. Subs is kino Oh no no no
>>187154019Yes but even they could have written in romaji if taught to do so. Historically some people also only wrote in hiragana. Kanji like every other language was preceded by spoken language and there's no reason to think that kanji is the only possible way to write Japanese.
>>187154049>Languages with poor density per word/syllable tend to be spoken faster to compensate.Yes, but english is not a language with poor density per word/syllable. Spanish, japanese and french have poor density.What they did was basically.>count the overall number of syllables used for each passage and measure the time it took subjects to read their passage. Divide the syllable count by time to get the number of syllables spoken per second. Next, come up with some value for how much meaning is packed into each syllable, which will give you an average information density per syllable. Finally, use those values to derive an "information rate."
>>187153941SUBS FAGS ETERNALLY BTFOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Ika rhymes with _______
>>187153444It's because even they are embarrased of their products. It's one thing to cater to the local NEETs but showing the entire world how fucked up Japs can be is dishonoburu.
>>187150597You have free time to post here apparently. Leave this time sink and begin the project, lazy ass.
>>187153769Thank you, my good sir. You are a gentleman and a scholar.
>>187150141>I never see people complain about it. I think it's cause all of /a/ is too lazy and dumb to get educated, that they try to rationalize it.Yeah try being someone who actually goes to Japan for events and hangs around/actually knows people in the JP anime community in general. Coming to /a/ after all that is absolutely surreal in the amount of horseshit people spout. Especially when anime-onlys say xyz isnt popular because of BD sales yet in Japan the events all sell out like crazy or something.
>>187153941What the fuck
>>187154246It is right now because replacing the kanji lexicon is not possible. The ancient core vocabulary of any languages hardly has homonyms, a rice farmer who only needs the core vocabulary to talk about his prehistoric livelihood doesn't need to be able to write, homonyms are practically always borrowings. The rice farmer might know 決戦 but he has no knowledge of medicine, politics, IT or flowery words where the other meanings belong. All advanced contexts need kanji.
>>187153941I CANT READ FUCKING MOONRUNES
>>187154593The English is completely and totally fucking fabricated. Not one speech bubble matches up with the Japanese. Not a single one.
>>187154246精神, 清新, 誠心, 制震, 西晋, 星辰, 西進, 静振, 西神, 政審, 生新.All of these words are "seishin", good luck telling them apart by context alone.
>>187153941>>187154593Shitty translation, but far better than what's in the image for EOPtards:>K..Krillin was.... killed....! Krillin was....>T...That can't be...>A...a monster, you said...?>and it stole Goku's Dragonball and the participant list....?>K...Krillin-san desperately tried to stop him... b...but that horrible bastard...
>>187154790What about Hunter x Hunter? Please tell me mangastream translations is canon
>Read raw >Characters stutter every other speech bubble
>>187153689I would call you a /pol/ wacko, but then I remember about the actual stuff Funimation has done.
>>187154343>Roughly 20,000 kilosIMAGINE
>>187151413>A French study published in English>English and French are ontopWow, who could have guessed>Methodology is comparing speed of sentences to meaning>Forgetting about keigo when studying japanese
>Learn Japanese>Enough to read slice of life and medium level stuff but lots of technical vocabulary is too difficult>Stop enjoying manga/anime because I feel I have to consume everything in Japanese or I'm failingRate
>>187155611>https://web.archive.org/web/20140801094444/http://ohll.ish-lyon.cnrs.fr/fulltext/pellegrino/Pellegrino_2011_Language.pdfGo and read the fucking thing
>>187153941What the fuck? How did they even get any of that complete shit?
>>187155611Please don't give answers one would expect from /v/ or something
>>187151493Or of there is a visual pun, but it doesn't play out in English the same way it does in Japanese, so you have to invent an entirely new pun that would fit the visuals.
>>187155715By not knowing Japanese. This is what unpaid work gets you. Amateur 10 year olds. >>187155750>knowing it's from /v/
>>187154667I'm Japanese but I only know the first one.
>>187150873>learning a language with actual utility like Russian, Arabic, or Chinese>already have solo travel proficiency in all three>fluent in japanese on top of thatWhat now? Also, I don't use all three of those combined anywhere near as much as I use nip to read manga and LNs raw. Hell, I only picked up russian because I got annoyed at not being able to sense of their writing.
>>187155842>is Japanese >hangs around western weeaboo community Can't get worse than that.
>>187154313Ah that's why I thought it was bull because reading nip is actually more efficient than english. I mean I may not always know how to pronounce a new compound word but I can pretty much get what it means with the context, radicals and kanji meanings.
>>187151585Thee covers have convinced me that Russian literature is a worthwhile pursuit.
>>187155571Literally just take your time, you better be using a mining deck
>>187156169Well, the Hitler one looks like a real hoot, at least.
>>187156111In reality, all these books are worthless garbage about loser and\or history nerd timeslipping into the past or transferring into a famous historical figure's body. He then uses his knowledge of the upcoming events, which results into a massive success for Russia.Ultimate trash.
>>187156111>>187156204You'll be able to read War and Peace the way it was intended.
>>187156029>reading nip is actually more efficient than englishDefine "efficient", because by any measure, english pretty much beats japanese in terms of efficiency. The only reason why japanese appears there is because they tend to speak it faster, like you said before.
>>187156204what's his story?
>>187156188A synopsis for the book for you.>Comrade Hitler, Part 2. To Hang Churchill!>Our guy, who got transfered into the body of Adolf Hitler changes the history of Warld War 2! What price would he pay for the invasion of Britain? Will he be able to hang Churchill as a warmonger for crimes against humanity? Will there be an alliance between the Reich ans stalinist USSR? Can comrade Hitler together with comrade Stalin crush the USA and develop the atomic bomb before the Americans?
>>187156264A russian dude timeslips in 1899 and fights in the Second Boer War against the British.
>>187156288>88>Hitler and Stalin as bros>BTFO'ing the Anglosphere>Hanging Churchill as a warmongerHoly shit. How could anyone decry this as anything but the right way to view history? This is one superbly based manuscript.
>>187156130I have finished core6k and am like 2k words into my mining deck, but I still can't watch any anime with "specific" lingo or anything basically which is annoying.
>>187156251See twitter shit. Japanese can fit like 5 times more information into one tweet than English.
>>187156288How it should have happened.
>>187150049Fucking underrated fpbp
>>187151834Former US Air Force Cryptologic Linguist here and you are absolutely correct based on the Interagency Language Roundtable (ILR).
>>187156724Thanks for the upvote, have some gold.
>>187152222I read somewhere that there's a high demand for English-Arabic translators in the US military. It's also quite handy if you plan to travel in Europe.
Guys,what is a good way to learn Japanese?
>>187157205Don't. Let translators earn their bread.
>>187157205Go to Japan.
>>187157205By just starting to learn without worrying too much about the specific methodThere are people who spend a lifetime trying to find the ""best"" method to learn and forget to actually start learning
>>187151139>the ａｂｓｏｌｕｔｅ retardation of English pronunciation.it's pronounced "pronunciation", faggot.
I hate the most is when they add accents
Is there point to going to japan If I don't know japanese?
>>187157517visiting is good enough reason
>>187150022OP is a total liar who's baiting for replies. Shit translations are everywhere but total fanfiction like what OP described is extremely rare.
>>187153941more accurate translation
>>187153941I can see why it could be done that way. Some phrases or ideas might be repetative, so they were changed for a better text flow. They also might be too long to fit into a speech bubble, so they were spread and rearranged. It's hard to tell for sure without some other pages.However, one can defend this so far. Probably it was done so the text was more action-like.But still, it conveys the same message.
>>187153941>someone was literally paid to write this fanfictionThat's what's really unfair.
>>187157738>it conveys the same messageExcept it doesn't. The same message might be conveyed by the images but then you don't need "translation".
>>187157536>but total fanfiction like what OP described is extremely rare.It's pretty common in manga. Most of the time they're just ESLs though.
>>187153545nah they're cool in comparison
>>187157806give proof, example or gtfo
>>187157801But it does.Despair of Krillin's death.Concern for Dragon Balls.Description of adversary's immense power.However, just like I said, it's hard to justify these changes.
>>187150022Jap is not one of them, but I speak 4 languages already and I'm already used to the idea that things just get lost in translation all the time. Doesn't phase me anymore.
>>187153392Viets switched to latin script but still understand homonyms. There is context and also people will clarify thing when talking with difficult homonyms, just like the chinks
>>187157844ESLOPs are the worst. You think that knowing a bunch of very closely related euro languages somehow makes your opinion hold water when it comes to languages which are incredibly distantly related.Come back when you've learned any east asian language and post this garbage again. People who don't know French might not grasp some nuances of poetry, people who don't know Japanese can't grasp a solid 20-30% of basic sentences.
>>187157843Not him but,The translation is still missing Krillin's desperation and you're only aware of these concepts without having to look deep between the lines because you know what the original script says.
>>187157517Anon there are people have been living and working there for years, that get married to natives and have families, and still can't speak more than a couple words of Japanese. You're missing out on talking to people there but you're not going to be unable to function
>>187157889But only two of the languages I speak are European though. What's with your weird rant?
>>187157900It may be conveyed on the next or the prior page.Yet again, this way is overcomplicated. Probably was done so that it looked like American comics writing.
>>187157205If you learn kana and basic grammar first, anime will slowly teach you japanese. I've done basically no dedicated study of written japanese and I can read simple things like Nico comments, SoL raws, and porn now, which is starting to teach me kanji that I've always hated. I can also tell when subbers are bullshitting.
>>187156648Cause they use dem hieroglyphs
Why chink webnovel translators could use direct translated phrase like "you have eyes but not seeing mt. Tai". Always cracks me up everytime I heard it because it's too word by word and I understand it perfectly in my native language. Why don't jap fansubs do this kind of translating but always the same boring -senpai, -sensei, -sama?
>>187150022>google translate manga>rephrase broken sentences based on context>nobody will EVER call me out>even if they do, retards will just defend me and call the ones who complain "ungrateful" or "entitled"
I hate kanji. I hate how nips just combine kanji to make words. I hate how they have shit phonology. I hate nip morphology. I had no idea I could find a language that is worse than English before studying Japanese.
>>187157994What's wrong with that, Senior Ye Xiu? Little Tang is doing her best already.
>>187157871>people will clarify thing when talking with difficult homonymsThat's a downgrade from not having to clarify
>>187157995Pretty much what Commie always did but with """localization""" to further disguise how lazy their translations were.
>>187157254>implying he pays for his moonrune interpretations
>>187158019No kidding. As someone who makes a living scamming companies by shoddily translating PR statements you'd be surprised how much a slang word like "dude" will get you with people who have no clue what you're doing.
>>187158012Fuck you buddy, Japanese is one of if not the most phonetically pleasing language in the world thanks to heavy vowel distribution. It's like a civilization literally decided to communicate in nothing but musical syllables.
>>187157995A good chunk of them is exactly like this unironically though
>>187157995>>187158019I localize every konbini into walmart, tesco, etc.
>>187158017But better than keeping that ancient kanji, even the chinks recognise their scripts are fucking too complex.
>>187158018LHT doesn't even rephrase broken sentences so that guy is actually way better
>>187157964>learning Japanese from animeoh you poor bastard
>>187158055I kinda agree but their kanji compound words sound ugly bro. You really need to get familiar with some curry land languages if want words to flow like music.
This thread was just fucking awful.
>japanese loans a word from english>re-translate it into a different word in english
>>187158110fuck you, this was the only good thread i've seen on /a/ during this entire day
>>187158108>curry land languagesI can only imagine their words flowing like something else.
>>187158055That would be Chinese where you actually have to sing it and different tones mean different things.
>>187158127That's just how languages work
>>187158127If you'd actually translate "ビッチ/bicchi" as "bitch," you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.
>>187158055Dude they don't have many sounds. Their are phonetically bankrupt.
>>187157964i can't even understand how people think like this, i've watched a decent amount of shows and might be able to understand very small bits or words from conversations that are common but that's it
>>187158152Chinese sounds disgusting though
>>187158127Nice thumbnail retard.
>>187158143Nice meme bro. It maybe a poo land filled with subhumans now but some of their languages had incredible development and evolution.
>>187158152Out of the languages I've heard, chinese is the closest to verbal diarrhea.
>>187158101>anime is full of inane and repetitive functional dialogue>anime characters speak slowly>puts everything into the context of a storyAnime is actually fantastic learning material though? Japanese subtitles to read along with would make it perfect.
>>187158162konosuba did this though
I was about to typeset something but this thread is suddenly moving so fast and I have to read it. Oh well, another delay for the release.
>>187158062Well luckily nips have no intention of losing them.
>>187158152chinese sounds dogshitt. lives in a building with and near huge amounts of chinese people
>>187158152>Chinese where you have to sing it and different tones mean different thingsAttaching definition to tone restricts creative usage though?
>>187158258So... typical business school in UK?
>>187158162Would you translate Mama/Papa into Mother/Father though?
>>187150167Smelling a butt is hot, smelling farts is gross. If you weren't a fag I wouldn't have to go over this with you. Smelling a butt is also like indirectly smelling vagina because it's right there, and vice versa.
>>187158285I'd translate them into luv or honey
>>187158189And of course, it can mean 'style' as well because it would be too simple otherwise.
>>187157995I actually use to do this myselfI translated a few pages of an online Japanese webcomic called Food Fighter Misaki, However I new I was getting some shit wrong and I decided to try learning Japanese to be able to read it without translation software
>>187151544English vocabulary isn't a bug, it's a feature. >>187158258I've read that falling tone instinctively irks English speakers because its subconsciously associated with ire, condescension, imperatives. Since that tone is all over Mandarin and Cantonese it annoys us. That said in my personal experience I don't find Thai (also tonal and features falling tone) even one fourth as fucking cheese grater on my ears annoying as Mandarin.
>>187150277>I don't even know who Rosetta Stone is
>>187150022I'm glad Chinese translations aren't anywhere as bad.
>>187150022I am completely fluent in japanese, and live in Japan. I am an university student studying computer science fully in japanese.So let me give you my opinion.Yes you do have a point, but you probably don't understand japanese context yet (things really change because of the culture, and no watching 10000 animes is not enough to learn it properly)I have friends who do translations for mangas or anime, or even porn. The hardest part is translating to english what cannot be translated properly, so you need to read in the context and put it in other words. Also if you were actually advanced in japanese you would realise you know NOTHING. learning your basic 2200 kanji isn't enough for translating my friend.
>>187158152>Xua xangze bangxenzeWhat a pleasant sounding language
>Suzuki-san! (classmate's mother)>"Mrs. Suzuki!">Suzuki-san (classmate)>"Aya!"
>>187158351I also don't know who he is.I learn everything with Imabi + Nihongo no Mori + Kanji Study app
>>187158395Welcome to Funimation and Viz!
>>187158361Memorizing kanji is a waste of time when jisho exists. Next you'll say name-reading is important.
>>187158189>いいセンスだI realize the way they translated it is accurate, but still, it would be nice if there was way to say "you are very perceptive to [thing] and realize what makes [thing] work" in one sentence.
>>187158421How do you read this? 緑輝
>>187150277>>187158404https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosetta_StoneHope you're feeling real dumb right now
>>187158389Shirishiyoku, kinchoukanwa, jihi, settouzai, kakyouWhat a pleasant sounding language! On top of sounding ugly, japanese words take time to acquire (to construct sense around them) because of how they coin words.
>>187158395What's wrong with this approach? Unless you're a massive weeb, you'd prefer social relationship markers of your native language. And, of course, if showing that the situation is inherently Japanese in nature, but usually it's not the point.
>>187158458What does it have to do with this thread?
>When the subs have the character saying something simple like "Hey" or "Welcome", but the characters are sounding like they are saying half of a sentence.
>>187158466>On top of sounding ugly, Japanese is legitimately one of the nicest sounding languages though, none of those words sound nearly as bad as most Chinese speech
>>187158466All of those sound completely fine though?
Is it true that if you translate Japanese accurately it ends up sounding completely robotic?
>>187158466Kakyou is the only one that sounds even SLIGHTLY grating, you dumb chink fuck. Meanwhile every other word in Chinese is 50-100 times more unpleasant to hear.
>>187158476Altering or substituting names is absolute cancer. Honorifics are something that can't be accurately translated therefore to avoid abandoning meaning they must be loaned.
>>187158476>And, of course, if showing that the situation is inherently Japanese in natureThat's the whole fucking point. If the setting is in France for example, I expect the characters to use Monsieur or Madame.
>>187158503>Translation says stands name is Zipper Man>Clearly is saying Sticky FingersI mean to be fair Zipper Man is a better name but still...
>>187158529No. it's just localizers' propaganda.
>>187158550I've read many Chinese translations and the translators at least know this much. I can't believe Chinese translators are better than English ones.
>>187158486See >>187150230 whose sass was completely wasted on some idiot, clearlyAlso>What does the item that allowed for hieroglyphics to be translated for the first time have to do with a thread about moonrunes translationCome on son
>>187158529Literally, yes, it sounds like absolute dogshit in English. Accurately? No, because an accurate translation requires localisation to bridge the gap.
>>187158555I think that's because of copyright.
>>187158529>accuratelyIf you were to read it out loud it would obviously sound unnatural, but that's irrelevant when you're listening to Japanese voices with subtitles
>>187158553Unfortunately jap authors are talentless hacks that still use japanese-exclusive honorifics even in non-jap "not-europe" settings (VEG, Vinland Saga, Trails of series and many more)I applaud Promised Neverland's author for not doing that at all though.
>>187158311Based anon speaks the truth. Especially the fact they're cute anime girls.<3
Taiwanese speak Mandarin Chinese way better than mainlanders do.
>>187158529Define "accurately". If you translate any languages that are further apart than e.g. Dutch and German literally it will always sound completely retarded as soon as sentences become more complicated than "I eat an apple."A good translator needs to be fluent in both languages and a competent writer in his own right. Most manga translators lack at least two of those skills.
>>187158555That's just because CR doesn't know jow copyright laws work
>>187158523Their artifical and stolen vocabulary sounds grating, you fucking weeaboo. Their basic vocabulary(meaning stuff that evolved organically) sounds really pleasant. Pure Japanese(language before their we educated those retards) , which no longer exists, would sound million times more better than the one we have now.
>>187158555Almost every single Stand after part 3 is changed because of copyright reasons, that's entirely different
>>187158571English has to put up with the scumbag dub industry and fanboys/opportunists that defend their scumbag practices and/or want in on the pie.
>>187158458>falling for this baitI hope YOU'RE feeling dumb right now.
>>187158550Nothing can be accurately translated. Honorfics are not an exception.>>187158553If the setting is France, for sure, but not necesserily. However, for example, if it's a fictional world or the location doesn't really matter, honorfics should be abandoned.
>>187158632t. monolingual EOP
N4 newfriends are so cute.
>>187158627What is this?
>>187158622Poe's Law, Anon. I may be jaded, but if something can either be explained via bait or retardation I'll usually interpret it as being the latter.
>>187158584Works in the original text sometimes suffer from this because the original author doesn't always bother touching upon it. But translators have no fucking excuse.
>>187158529Wow, where are you looking?
>>187157205I learn from the besthttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSg2tXz_T6M
>>187158550>therefore to avoid abandoning meaning they must be loaned.Except the meaning is still abandoned, EOP weebs don't have a fucking clue about the nuances of honorifics.The relationship between characters can easily be shown with greater dialogue. Japanese is great at establishing relationships and characters instantly, but English can do it within a few more seconds.The obvious example is something like 吾輩は猫である, translated to English as simply "I am a cat". The basic information is still transferred in both sentences, but in Japanese you instantly know that this is a very aloof cat who thinks highly of himself.
>>187158641Nice passive aggressive womanisms around here.
>>187158639Try again.But it's flattering that I pass as a native English speaker, even though it's 4chan level native English speaker.
>>187158605>Their basic vocabulary(meaning stuff that evolved organically) sounds really pleasant.Kansai dialect.
>>187158456Nice revolver spinning style, ocelot chan?
>>187158641said N5 shinjin-kun
>>187158632>if it's a fictional world or the location doesn't really matterThen the language defaults to whatever fictional language is used in the setting, or if that doesn't apply, the language the work was originally written in.
>>187158553>>187158584Does the west even use honorfics with works based in eastern culture?
>>187158723manga? or in general?
>>187158661Your job as a translator isn't to "fix" the work
>>187158684There's nothing you can do when there are bazillion ways to say "I".
>>187158622It's hard to tell the difference in 2019 /a/.
>>187158723That's a good question.I can't even think of any notable western work that takes place in Japan at the moment, except for that Tom Cruise samurai movie. I think it did have honorifics ?
>>187158685>>187158706Study hard. You can do it. I am cheering for you!
>>187153888No joke, I learned some phrases just to communicate with those idiots.
>>187158750Just wait for Ghost of Sushimaker soon. pure western-made, set in Japan.
>>187158711Welp, good luck reading Lord of the Rings in Westron.
>>187158734No, it's to interpret it.Most Japanese writers have no real understanding of how people in other countries communicate, how hierarchies are established, how superiors and inferiors are treated. If they did, they wouldn't just supplant them with the only system they know.>>187158745The point I'm making is that if you're dumb enough to think honorifics need to be loaned, why not all the different ways to say I? Why not "de aru" as a sentence ender? This train of thought has no brakes, because it's driven by a complete lack of basic understanding and the assumption that every weeb must know X. If honorifics were preserved in every translation, the same people would be whining about some other meaningless facet.
Honorifics generally cannot work outside of its intended language. It ends up sounding awkward and excessive.
>>187158794Modern west is so up its own creatively-bankrupt ass that I would be surprised if they bothered now.
>>187158801Why does everything have to be forsaken? your mindset is "either everything or nothing". it's a bad mindset.
>>187158794Are there going to be honorifics in that?
>>187158795It's only mostly the honorifics, if any, that really need to be touched on. Maybe some small nuances here and there too.
>>187158801Interpret it as it is written, not "what is meant to be written" as egotistical localizers might want to put it.
First off, OP is not wrong, a lot of subs and scans are pure dogshit. However this poster >>187150098 is also potentially right, sometimes dangerous fools with a tiny bit of Japanese knowledge get it in their heads that something should be translated more closely to their textbooks because they lack experience with the nuances of the language.>>187158529The phrase we use is not translated accurately but translated "literally". When Japanese is translated literally it sounds stilted and odd because the grammatical order is vastly different, and often different vocabulary is used for specific common phrases that aren't what we'd expect from their equivalents in English. Translating something "accurately" usually requires a walking a fine line between localizing certain expressions to be true to the spirit of the message being conveyed and not losing nuance that only exists in Japanese.And there are subjective differences between people about where that line is sometimes. For example, for my money, you simply can't translate "itadakimasu" any simple way other than to accept that it's an import Japanese-specific cultural point. "Time to eat!", "Thanks for the food", and "Rub a dub dub thanks for the grub" simply don't communicate the inherent meaning being conveyed behind the word. If one absolutely had to render it in English, something like "For what I am about to receive" or "Let us say grace" would be closer than these, though still not totally accurate. It's a sticking point, which is why I am of the philosophy that if you are translating Japanese to a destination culture that is aware that the source material is, in fact, Japanese, you should not be afraid to incorporate certain important key Japanese phrases as part of the educational process. If your audience (or more likely, your marketing/demographic research team) is unable to handle accepting that a rice ball is not a hamburger, maybe the material isn't for you.
>>187158801>it's to interpret it.Please don't translate anything ever.
>>187158817Or maybe future Assassin's Creed. They usually keep culturally-relevant words in their scripts.
>>187158824There isn't even honorific in Sekiro.all the dono and sama became lord
>>187150022That's the entire reason I'm learning Moon speak anon.
>>187158876Sekiro/Souls localisation team is terrifying. They go above and beyond with the way they express their interpretations with each line.
>>187158823>>Why does everything have to be forsaken?Because we're talking about converting a work to a new language? You can't preserve it anyway.>>187158850Don't worry, I won't. Please don't ever bother learning Japanese, I hope you rot in an eternal "hell" of localisations while spending your days crying about them.
>call a japanese longsword a katana>call a dragonfly cutter a tonbokiri>call a japanese glaive a naginata>call a bean pastry a taiyaki>Honorifics? No no no, there's no way the viewer would understand those.Implying translators have any definitive principles and don't just do shit based on what they think is marketable, then shill the fuck out of their method after they've committed.
>>187158950>we can't preserve everything, so let's preserve nothing at all!sasuga
>>187158801Slippery slope fallacy. Just because you can go overboard trying to infinitely preserve every quirk of the Japanese language does not mean the obvious solution is to leap to the other extreme and try to deny that the material contains elements of another culture entirely. You can't get away from the fact that you're dealing with a work that was written BY and FOR a specific cultural mindset, and if you want to do the best job of translating a work that can be appreciated by as wide a possible audience while simultaneously not changing the content so much that it becomes unrecognizable to its original version, you need to accept the premise that your audience is intelligent enough to be able to incorporate certain aspects of that culture into their understanding of the work.As for people "whining" about such and such, I don't feel it's a worthy expense of time to worry about every extreme minority that will never be pleased enough by anything. Some people just like to complain, and you can't change that.
>>187158957It's katakana so it's appropriate
>>187158876The fact there's no honorific in dubs and commercial localizations is exactly why so many refuse to use them. Your portfolio doesn't look so good if you don't show that you bullshit too.
Whoever translated the Katrielle Layton series fucking disgusts me, they arbitrarily used some alternative english names for all the characters from their shitty nintendo game(??) even though the correct names are spoken aloud and WRITTEN ON THE SCREEN IN ENGLISH.
>not learning German to be able to understand the badly-pronounced German that appears very briefly in a select few anime series, because the Japs are deutschaboos
>>187158950>don't ever bother learning JapaneseJoke's on you, faggot, I already know it.
Τὸν ἄρτον ἡμῶν τὸν ἐπιούσιον δὸς ἡμῖν σήμερονLiterally: >The Bread Of-Us The Daily Grant Us TodaySo which translation is right /a/, for your money:>Give us this day our daily bread.>Give us the food we need for each dayThat's basically what interpretation in translation boils down to. In some cultures, some languages, bread as a daily staple just isn't a thing. It's a foreign concept to them. It's something they'd have to learn and carry that understanding with them to infer what's being said. The translator has to decide whether to convey something more literal or to try to convey what a native speaker would take away from what's being said. That sort of balancing act is frequently a gray area.
>>187158985>all name in katakana is english nameThey used Katakana for every names with "advanced kanji" to make it easy to read for everyone.
>>187159029>not just having a Japanese-German dictionary readyhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnStsRg-mdU
>>187159029>learning german instead of arabic
>>187158801Old subs actually did that de arimasu.
You guys need to stop giving Herkz material for twitter.
>>187159057>In some cultures, some languages, bread as a daily staple just isn't a thing. It's a foreign concept to them.God forbid someone encounter a foreign concept in a foreign work!
>>187159026A long time ago, in the VHS era, it was common to sell a subtitled tape for $5 more than its dubbed equivalent, the reasoning being that the subtitled version would be more appealing to the "hardcore" Japanese animation crowd who'd be willing to spend the extra money for it, even though it takes far less effort to produce a sub than a dub. While practices varied between studios, you could occasionally find a commercial release that included Japanese idioms and honorifics, often with a still frame of translation notes at the beginning or end of the episode. It's a shame so many opt for the more easily-accessible, less linguistically rich option as a matter of course these days.I've seen one or two fansubbers lately releasing two separate sets of subs, one with honorifics and one without. I find that rather cute in a way, though I don't expect it to really catch on at all.
>>187159088Yeah de gozaru
>>187158966Leaving words untranslated isn't preserving anything.>>187158983The main sticking point for most EOPs seems to be honorifics, because they can easily pick them out in dialogue just by knowing character names.I'm only talking about correcting issues with Japanese works set in foreign countries, obviously things set in Japan should maintain cultural references where possible, it's thematic to the work. The problem is that everyone has a different opinion on what "should" be preserved, and opinions held by EOPs are generally horribly misguided and stem from basic misinterpretations of societal behaviour.
>>187159029>Arcueid BrunestudGoddamnit, I love you girl but your NAME ISN'T REEEAAAAL
>>187159057Exactly this. Translation pragmatics is the key. If there is a somewhat perfect analogue of a word\idea\system in the language you're translating into, there is no need to use one from the original language unless it's important to save it in place. These is no conrete rule, it' a case bycase situation.
>>187159105Fucking thisReminds me of 4Kids doing their fucking best to stop american children from learning that japanese food exists
>>187159061No, if that was the case then hiragana would suffice
>>187159029I was taught German in school for a few years, I don't really know it, but I understand some of it. I rewatched Sora no Woto without subs recently and all the scenes with Aisha were a strange experience. Especially when the other girl was translating what she was saying.
>>187158962What a o-cute go-post o-you have beautifully humbled us to read go-anon-sama!
>>187159122>Leaving words untranslated isn't preserving anything."The word "katana" has preserved nothing in all its usage across the english language, its existence is entirely redundant." t. some autistic commie fanboy on /a/
>>187159105I wonder how many in the english audiences know that in japanese rice=the meal, and everything else is just a side dish
>>187158734I can understand where those who insist on localising come from, to a certain extent. If in the above example, the Japanese work set in France is translated to French, then I would say it's obvious that any Japanese honorifics in the work should be removed. Admittedly, the same work translated to other languages is more or less a grey area, as in whether to keep the Japanese honorifics or switch to French honorifics instead, but never to the honorifics that the language the work is being translated to uses. That's where I start to disagree with them, because they usually go with the latter choice. But they usually take it even farther, going to the extent of changing the honorifics to the language the work is translated in even if the honorifics used are consistent with the setting. And of course they don't stop there, often even changing the meaning of what the characters say.
>>187159105Only in America.In my country, there's a lot of tl notes in One Piece manga to explain foreign concepts.
>>187159057>translate as the latter>three chapters later someone makes fun of that line by calling these people the bread fandomWhat do?
>>187159057In my country a literal translation is "Give us today the bread of all days".
>>187159061>to make it easy to read for everyone.If that was the purpose, they'd use hiragana instead. Using katakana carries a different intention.
>>187159163The actual fucking game says otherwise. They used Katakana instead of Hiragana for that.
>>187159218>"The word "katana" has preserved nothing in all its usage across the english language, its existence is entirely redundant."Someone being braindead in the opposite direction doesn't stop "honorifics NEED to be preserved, they're vital for understanding Japanese relationships!" from being equally fucking retarded.Obviously, katana is a useful loanword. Only a moron would argue the opposite.
>>187159105The point of translation is to convey meaning or else you'd just read literal word for word renderings of the text. I'm just asking you to think about the actual dilemma instead of the typical wholly indefensible rip/replace/substitute localization.
>>187159290>doesn't stop "honorifics NEED to be preserved, they're vital for understanding Japanese relationships!" from being equally fucking retarded.I think your opinion is fucking retarded.
>>187159187>Especially when the other girl was translating what she was saying.What episode and timestamp?
>>187158605shoo shoo bugman>>187158691you mean it sounds good or bad? also is there a difference in cities like osaka in kyoto? always wondered
>>187159290>dichotomyposting again>"No, we can't do one extreme, it HAS to be the other extreme!"
Example.Japanese author writes about Russians. One of the characters (let's call him Patrushev) is on official terms with another character. However Partushev is also a writer, and that second character is a fan. When the second character after a time of hesitation finally reveals that he's a fan, he adresses Patrushev like this:>パトルシェフさん・・・いえ、パトルシェフ先生。How would you translate it into English?
If only I didn't have the attention span of a goldfish I could maybe actually commit myself to learning a new language.
>>187159326I don't cause fuck commies
>>187159057I'd go with "give us our daily bread today". Even in English, bread isn't always used literally. It can also mean food, sustenance in general, livelihood, or money.
I'm glad that instead of coming on /a/ to see quality threads and original content, I can instead experience 400 posts of cynical self-hating weebs autofellating over shit that no one cares about.
>>187152158You are clinging to a study providing a single example. How sad is that?
>>1871593261) keep the honorifics2) remove the first honorific and replace the second one with an appropriate English equivalent3) replace both with Russian equivalents
>>187159326I write what came from the author's pen. The author is a Japanese person, writing about a foreign culture but from a Japanese mindset. In order to most closely understand how the author was feeling in that moment, one should approach it from his perspective, not the target foreign culture, because the author's interpretation of that culture may not be wholly accurate but that is the way he structured the work. It isn't fair to try to make the dialogue more accurate to the TARGET culture and say "This is what the author WOULD have wanted, if only he'd known about it".
>>187159342Because in English bread can be used as a synonym for food or meal. It can't be used so, for example, in Japanese, where it would be rice 米.
>>187159355>quality threads and original contentDid you just wake up from a coma?
>>187159384>Because in English bread can be used as a synonym for food or meal.It's like you missed the nuance of that English phrase entirely!
>>187159326>Petrushev... Nyet, tovarish pisatiel!
>>187159326But I don't know Russian anon.At least in English a formal shift or deference to his position/ability can be conveyed by addressing him first without his title, then with since in this case "Chef" is a title used in spoken English.
>>187159355There aren't many people here shitposting though. You're one of the few who are. I for one think there's a lot of stimulating conversation going on here, in fact.Do you ever look at yourself in the mirror and wonder, "Maybe I'm the cancer?"
>>187159381>Gospodin Patrushev... no, uchitel Patrushev.Sounds like shit to me.
>>187159326The one writing is a Japanese using Japanese honorifics, so Japanese it is. The target's nationality doesn't matter here. If someone teaching Japanese to foreigners uses Japanese honorifics when addressing them, I'd keep the Japanese honorifics too.
ITT people falling into a very simple trap, but so do 99% of people at least. Language isn't about words. It's about ideas. Break down anything into it's abstract components and build it up again in another language. Get rid of your attachment to the words, it's useless and will only hold you back.
>>187159262Equating foreign portrayal of real world places to real world places is a mistake in general. The place in the story isn't France, it's a fictional Japanese France where people are using japanese honorifics, speaking japanese, and probably doing oddly japanese things like saying ITADAKIMASU~ before a meal. It's inevitable as American portrayal of foreign places being basically America smattered with some generalizations and world cultural fun facts. Shying away from japaneseness in a japanese work no matter if it's a japanese work about somewhere other than Japan is a failure to preserve the work. If you find it distasteful that Paris is so oddly japanese then that just means you have a problem with the japanese work you're translating.
>>187159382Let's say you write a best-selling book. When it inevitably gets translated into Japanese, do you want them to add honorifics?
>>187159443Thank you, kind sir. I hope people would heed to your words.
>>187159449Are you implying Japanese are less capable of understanding foreign modes of address without honorifics than Westerners are of understanding Japanese speech with them?
>>187159443>Break down anything into it's abstract components and build it up again in another languageUsing what, exactly?
>>187159449You can translate Mr. to -san, but you can't always translate -san to Mr.It's not 2 ways road.
>>187159443>>187159471No, language is about words. Language is the process of using words to convey an idea. However the idea conveyed by words is subjective interpretation, whereas the words used are an objective observation. A translator has no business presuming what the idea behind the words is, therefore they should best preserve the words being used as a general ideal.
>>187159382The idea of interpretation is exactly to convey author's intentions in a target language. Author writes about a foreign culture the best they can, and you should pass these ideas the best you can. Ideas, not the form.>>187159422It doesn't matter oif it's Russian. It could be Fench, Elvish or Venusian. >>187159440So you'd keep Japanese honorfics in a speech of a non-Japanese character in English-translated work?
>>187159449Irrelevant question, you're asking what I, as the author, would WANT. If that's the case then we should be asking Japanese writers or directors what they want, when we translate their works. That would be a fine thing, in fact. But I don't see people doing it very often. We're talking about best practices for translation in a line of work where the original author is practically never consulted. In that vein, I believe we have no recourse but to try and maintain the text as close to how it was written from the author's mindset and culture, to minimize the amount of third party artifacts that get added to the work. If the author requests that his work be rendered in a foreign language in a specific way, then it would be best to adhere to those wishes.
>>187159326Mr. Patrushev -- I mean -- gospodin Patrushev.
>>187159381These are the only options desu, although the third one seems pretty cool.
>>187159326>Patrushev san… no, Partushev-sensei.If it's Russian honorifics you want, he should be using something like タヴァーリシチ・パトルシェフ instead.
>>187159537The point of translation is to convey as much as you possibly can. Yet as language is just a mean of sharing ideas, conveying these ideas must be prioritised before the words. Otherwise you could just make a word-by-word translation without any attention to the actual meaning and call it a day.
>>187159556>The idea of interpretation is exactly to convey author's intentions in a target language. Author writes about a foreign culture the best they can, and you should pass these ideas the best you can. Ideas, not the form.Wrong. You are then writing FOR him, with the presumption that you know better than he what he wanted to write. When an author writes, they are NOT depicting objective reality as it exists, detached from any impartial observer. They are writing about their PERCEPTIONS of that reality. No matter how "real" a country or place may be, any person, of any culture, who writes about it is in fact only writing about their own perception of that reality, one small facet, that exists in their mind. It's the hope of any author that the fictional reality that exists in their head is as close as possible to the one that exists (or will exist) in their target audience's heads. When you discard their perceptions and instead write about the objective reality as YOU perceive it, you are not translating the work, you are replacing it.
>>187159592>タヴァーリシチThat literally means comrade anon. Gospodin is the equivalent of -san or Mister. See >>187159434
>>187159449If I was a Japanese with an interest in the English literature I would not want to read an english-translated book that inserts honorifics, no. A lack of japanese honorifics is a part of western culture, just like the presence of japanese honorifics is a part of japanese culture. A japanese person can learn what "Mr." means just like a westerner can be expected to learn what -san means.
>>187159499No, I'm trying to gauge whether you're just stupid, or legitimately retarded.If you want them to add honorifics, you're a complete contrarian moron who thinks everything is fine as long as the Japanese do it. If you want them to leave them out, you're still stupid, but at least you have the mental capacity to not contradict your retarded beliefs.>>187159567This assumes the Japanese author is a westaboo, though. Obviously, you know what honorifics are, a nip in your position might not understand anything about Italian or Spanish, and very little about English.It's foolish to ask for an authors input on a language they don't speak. It's far more sane to just assume they would have fixed their mistake if they understood it, because most people don't want to deliberately fuck up.
>>187159445>It's inevitable as American portrayal of foreign places being basically America smattered with some generalizations and world cultural fun facts.And so if such works were translated to the local text, you'd insist on no local honorifics be used? That is where I disagree with you.
>>187159644>stupid>retarded>contrarian moronOh look, I can easily discard your post as having no legitimate arguments whatsoever.
>>187159434Maestro Patrushev would probably suit the meaning of sensei here better. Still kinda shit though.
>>187159644>It's foolish to ask for an authors input on a language they don't speak. It's far more sane to just assumeImagine being this retarded
how many years do I have to learn until I can read this?
>>187159617>with the presumption that you know better than he what he wanted to writeyou do, since he probably doesn't speak a word of whatever language you're translating it intothat tends to inhibit expressiveness a bit
>>187159381Yea, that's pretty much the only options, especially if you don't really know the language.However there is another option. You can adress to the first character as "Patrushev", or "mister Patrushev" (or "gospodin\tovarisch Patrushev" if you want the flavour) and try to convey the lost meaning the other way.
>>187159632I apologise. I can only imagine Russians using comrade and nothing else, so that was the first thing that came to my mind.
>>187159556>So you'd keep Japanese honorfics in a speech of a non-Japanese character in English-translated work?Depends on the context. If there was sufficient reason for the user to use Japanese honorifics (e.g. a teacher), then I keep them. If not, then I don't.
>>187159537>A translator has no business presuming what the idea behind the words isNo, that is literally what a translator's fundamental job is. To use their knowledge of the language, culture, etc. In order to get ideas across.Metal Gear Solid is a great example of this (partly because fucking everyone's played it) If you play it in Japanese and it's hockey bollocks that wouldn't convince you it was a espionage thriller action movie at all. If you're western. The Japanese however eat that shit up. So the translators, rightly knowing Kojima was aping action movies, threw in more military lingo and military sounding stuff than is in the Japanese, cut down on how sappy a lot of the conversations are, and effectively sold what Kojima sold to the Japanese, to the western audience. Without interpreting what was behind the words you don't get that, you get something trying to be something and failing because the cultural expectations aren't the same. You can't translate in a vacuum, you need to be on the pulse of the culture and language you're translating both from and into.
>>187159680Ask someone who speaks Chinese
>>187159682When you presume the author wanted something other than what was written you're adding an additional degree of differentiation from the source material. It's like saving a jpg over and over, you need to avoid making any lossy changes whenever possible. Minimize the amount of your own cultural experiences and knowledge you inject into the work. If the author wrote Russianguy-sensei, you write Russianguy-sensei. In this way, the ultimate target audience can be sure they have the closest, most direct line back to the original work to be able to translate it in their own brains to their own cultural context. If you change what the author wrote, you're losing information that can't be easily traced back.
>>187159617The author in that case conveys the idea of adressing to Patrushev not as a collegue, but as a respected writer. And conveys it with a change of honorfic. Why should you, an interpreter, convey that rather simple idea with a foreign mean even though the only relevance it has is that the author has Japanese as his native language?
>>187159680It depends on how fast you can learn the hanzi. That's by far the hardest part. Maybe 5 years or so if you work at it.
>>187159711Well, that's what am I talking about. There is no reason for them to use Japanese honorfics in this situation except for the fact that the original text was written in Japanese.
>>187159187SnW was great basically the only instance of good german in an anime
>>187159501Please never translate anything
>>187159741Because if you do then you are changing the work, causing a irretrievable loss of information to the target audience. Some loss of information is always expected, it is inevitable through the sheer act of translation. The goal is to minimize the loss. When you inject your own beliefs and perspective on a subject matter that the author wrote about, thinking that you know more than he, you are losing the author's own perspective on the matter. The author Is. Not. Writing. Accurate. Russian, period. If you start writing about Russia "accurately", you are not writing what he wrote. The author wrote about Russian people acting in a manner that is colored by his Japanese mind. In order to convey the meaning the author felt, you need to do what is possible to most accurately convey the ORIGINAL source culture's perspective of the material, not your arguable more-realistic image of the fantasized version that exists in the work.
>>187158438You just BTFO him dude.
>>187159740>something other than what was writtenYeah, that's when you get hired. Little point "translating" it to the same language. If you could>just repeat what's writteneveryone would, and translating wouldn't be a profession, and google translate would actually workthat is not the case
Metal Gear's Japanese scripts are so bad and the jap voices are so unfitting. They managed to make the goddess Nana Mizuki sound awful.
>>187159449out of curiosity does this happen? i'm guessing not unless it's explicitly stated e.g mr
>>187159537You're fucking retarded. Please korosu jibun.
>>187159740>Minimize the amount of your own cultural experiences and knowledge you inject into the workThat is literally the worst thing you could possibly do.
>>187159786I translate many things and there's absolutely NOTHING you can do about that. hahaha.
>>187159729MGS in Japanese is still pretty fun, it's just slightly worse story-wise because the interpretation of it as a B-movie spy flick is so much better.And what was the response from Kojima? He fired the translator and gave strict, delusional instructions to ensure that the original work was "preserved" as much as possible for every following game. And every single one of them has a fucking abortion of a translation because of it, they're all miles better in Japanese.
>>187159828whoa sick argument *discards*
>>187159828Not if you're translating for common plebs in movie theater or flight TV.
>>187151334It's actually not that hard to understand, if anything it's the lack of kanji that makes it harder to read. If you give it a thought thene no ura - behind something that he calls "e", probably "ie", so "behind the house"sa aru - there is, it's just simple Japanesehadage - just hatake with dakuten, so fieldto ba - probably just to ka, again a slightly different spellingtsukaeba i - this is just normal Japanese as well, you can useso "there's a field behind the house that you can use"kusa - weeds, grassogatte - ga atte, there arematterahande - not sure about this but the key word in it is probably "han" so something like "in that area"nanbogatorokeneba - this is just normal Japanese as well, "you have to pull out some"mai kedo - again normal, "though"asogo daba ibyon - asoko nara ii yo, again normal Japanese that's spelled slightly differentlyso "there are a lot of weeds around there that you have to pull out though, (but) that place is is fine"
>>187157995That's how I read untranslated doujins. I learned just enough characters to dump all this garbage into Google.
>>187159740>most direct line back to the original work to be able to translate it in their own brains to their own cultural context.If they could translate it in their own brains, they'd know Japanese and wouldn't require a translation.
>>187159774Oh fuck. I misread. I thought it was the Japanese writer addressing Patrushev.
non-english speakers feel english is impersonal language after all
>>187159798And what information would I convey by using Japanese honorfics in an English-translated text about Russians? That Russians talk like retards with Japanese honorifcs? It would make absolutely no sense for them to talk in such a way. Don't mind Russians. They're aliens from Proxima Centauri. Or underground gnome mutants of unknown origin. It's all the same. You have to convey what they were saying, not how.
>>187159863That is why the translator exists, to minimize the difficulty in understanding the work. Not to project their own cultural perceptions onto it. It is impossible to wholly do either 100%, the goal is to minimize the damage done in the process. If the target audience can understand a concept from the original author's perspective, that should be done wherever possible. If they can't, the most seamless translation that conveys the original meaning while still being accessible to the target audience should be used.If they still can't understand it after that, then you lament the fact that people with different IQs exist and accept that you can't educate everyone enough to understand a work even if they're from the exact same culture and speak the same language as the author. You can't coddle every last little brainlet in the world, eventually they're going to have to man up and make an effort to comprehend what they're reading.
>>187159731>>187159753It's Japanese, stupid EOPs.
>>187159887There's nothing you can do. A Japanese-made literature set in Russia, but everyone acts and speaks totally like Japanese is simply a product of shit writing.
>>187159914Oh fuck, it really is. I should go to bed.
>>187159837To be fair there was apparently middle man shenanigans, and Kaku had to fix up some glaring inaccuracies that Kojima had when it came to Military and Government stuff to make it even passable.>>187159839It wasn't an argument it was a statement of fact. Imagine trying to translate what someone saying "Yippy ki yay motherfucker" meant in a book without knowing what die hard is.
>>187159887>That Russians talk like retards with Japanese honorifcs? It would make absolutely no sense for them to talk in such a way.Then tell that to the Japanese author. As I said previously, if a Japanese author writes about Russians speaking in Japanese honorifics, then that author has written INACCURATE RUSSIAN. It is your job to convey that story: an inaccurate, Japanese-minded story about Russians. It is not your job to "correct" it for him. You are translating the work, not re-imagining it in your own idealized form.
>>187159909>the goal is to minimize the damage done in the processNo, the goal is for the target audience to have the same experience as those who read it in their first language.
>>187159914Don't they share the a lot of characters?
>>187158261It's a different kind of creativity. English poetry have tonic meters based on the stress of the syllables, but languages with tones like Viet or Chink base their poetry on the rising and falling rhythm. Instead of stressed-unstressed, it would be sharp-flat tones, for example.
>>187159924If Russians\French\elves\aliens speak with Japanese honorfics in English-translated Japanese-made literature, it's simply shit translation.
>>187159956>the goal is to destroy information to make something I have to expend less brainpower to understandSorry but I couldn't disagree more profoundly. Your entire destructive philosophy kind of makes me sick.
>>187159949Kaku had to fix up some glaring inaccuracies for MGS2*I like the fact that she fucking hated MGS2 and thought the script fucking sucked.
>>187159909Sure, you could do a few dozen major surveys and quizzes to ensure that X% of your audience knows what nakama means to justify leaving it in the text, or, you could just translate it like a sane individual.Translators do not spend their time wondering if their audience knows X or Y reference. Because they aren't braindead, they understand that probably 99% of them won't get a reference, and that it's fine to just replace it to make the text comprehensible.I'm sorry that you want "translations" tailored to your own current understanding of Japanese, but that isn't what the market wants.
>>187159837Most of the voices and performances suck dick and don't fit the characters though.
>>187159887>And what information would I convey by using Japanese honorfics in an English-translated text about Russians?You'd convey the information the author wants to convey about the characters' relationships to one another.
>>187159978>I'm sorry that you want "translations" tailored to your own current understanding of Japanese, but that isn't what the market wants.Absurd and pathetic rewriting of my argument. If you can't argue genuinely don't waste any more of my time.
>>187159954Sheesh, you're an actual mongoloid.
>>187159954This must be bait at this point.
>>187159995whoa another sick argument, that makes three, I guess I can count this as a win, since you're so far backed into a corner you can't get anywhere without petty insults. Talk about the emperor having no clothes, indeed.
>>187159964No, because it's fictional setting with adopted Japanese. those "elves" are Japanese.
>>187159798>>187159924>>187159954>Russians should translate to inaccurate Russian when reading a work set in their own countryI'm sorry but I cannot agree with this. That is complete bullshit.A foreign work set in Japan should likewise have Japanese honorifics instead of whatever the original text used.
Haha It's very obvious that Herkz and friends are posting here. I know they're here 24/7.
>>187159729>threw in more military lingo and military sounding stuff than is in the Japaneset. never played MGS in JapaneseKojima throws shittons of military terms in MGS because that stuff is his idea of fanciness, as in "look at this tacticool shit".>>187159837>gave strict, delusional instructions to ensure that the original work was "preserved" as much as possible for every following gameNow that would be really nice, if Kojima actually went through with what you're saying, but if you think MGS2 has a less than optimal script isn't because of being overly accurate, but because the new translator (Agness Kaku) was just a carbon copy of the previous one (Jeremy Blaustein), only with zero baggage and that couldn't write as well as her predecessor.
>>187159999Agreed.>>187160007Nah, I've just given up to break through how thick you are. But most likely baiting.
>>187159979What, in Japanese? I'm sorry if you played the English versions first and thought that's how it's "supposed" to be or something, but the Japanese performances are miles better pretty much across the board.MGS3 has probably the best voice matching in the series, it's just a shame the actors aren't up to snuff in English. I honestly think there must be something mentally wrong with people who hear Akio and yet somehow think Hayter is better. The poor cast is even more laughable in MGS2, they managed to fuck up the most basic bait and switch of all time by casting a different actor for Solidus because Hayter has no fucking range.
>>187159999>can't formulate a proper response to the argument>"it's bait!"Yeah I think we're about done here, what a sad showing. A shame more people can't actually think critically about these issues and just want "make it easy for me".
>>187160044MGS series are meant to be played in English. The audiences are international, just like FF games and KH games.
>>187160041Absconding because your arguments have fallen flat is a sad way to live. A shame you only made it this far before retreating into "everything I don't like is bait!"
>>187159326Translate the first one with a patronymic. >Ivan Ivanovich... No, gospodin Patrushev
>>187160070>>187160045>>187160007you've bid him farewell thrice in a row, would you fuck off already
>>187159992Maybe you're just not conscious of it, but that's seriously what your argument boils down to. You think you're somehow "superior" to other EOPs because you know what sensei means, and you want this reflected in the media you consume.
>>187160070You have another victory today. Cherish it. If only 4chan debates mattered, than I'd be devastated.
>>187160064nigga that's a good joke
>>187159605>Yet as language is just a mean of sharing ideasNo it fucking isn't. Language is not synonymous with communication. Language is a possible means of performing communication, but that is not the only use of language. If we're talking about practical communication across a language barrier that's one thing, crude methodology like localization can be considered sufficient. However translation in an artistic medium is a different ideal. The intended idea from a creative work is up to interpretation, there are subtleties and nuances that an objective-based communication will lack, and careless alterations will severely alter the work. When a translator reads a passage, interprets it, and then writes up another passage that's "basically the same", that's defecation. It's the equivalent to if some liberal arts student was told to rewrite an entire story in their own words, and then passed it to a third party claiming it means the same as the original. The impossible ideal for translation is for reading something translated to be as though you've read it in the original language, nothing more and nothing less. Being able to read something doesn't mean someone is going to help you understand (more accurately ignore) the cultural nuance of the work.
>>187160125It's true though.
>>187160126>When a translator reads a passage, interprets it, and then writes up another passage that's "basically the same", that's defecation.the word's translationthat's their job. that's all they do
I just translate honorifics whatever I feel like at the moment and what I think would fit the atmosphere. If it's a wordplay or an obscure Japanese word, like the name of a region specific food or a deity then I put them in TNs below the panel.Donate to my patreon please
>>187160138It's also true that people who shit on MGS judge the English version as it was the gospel, but that doesn't meant they're not wrong.
>>187160035More. Kojima uses way less than in the English script for MGS.>>187160126>read a passage>highschoolers using highschool slang which has a literal meaning, but also means something different when used by people in that age bracketWhat do you do? translate it literally? Textbook learning is not enough to be truly proficient in a language.
>>187160203>subs says Naomi>characters say NEYOUMIEHHH
>>187160209well apparently translation doesn't have anything to do with interpretation, and close enough is never sufficient, so you've no option but to print each and every option, picking the story up 5 pages later.
>>187160126I don't know if you really read, or just argue for argument's sake.Language is not synonymous with communication. Is just a mean of communication. You can't convey 100% of information in a text via translation. However you must try to convey as much as possible. And information is, of course, includes words, grammar and syntax. It's crucial. However, words grammar and syntax are different between languages. You simply can't translate them 100%. Otherwise you'd have to use SOV order in English-translated Japanese texts. Would you translate 私は画家です as "I aritst am"? It was the writer's intention to write words in this order, so iy must be preserved this way, right?The same goes for other aspects of language. If something is irrelevant, it shouldn't be preserved as it is, just like word order. If honorfics themselves, as a form, are irrelevant, the meaning they convey must be translated with other means. In Patrushev case they are absolutely irrelevant.
>>187160156It's defecation. You're reading the processed remains of what someone else got from the story. It's as much of a farce as if every country picked an artist to do their own version of the Mona Lisa.My point is that the ideal for translation is unattainable, yes. You basically can't make something readable from japanese to english without defecation. However, the distance of our languages is not an excuse to start bastardizing it even further by intentionally dumbing down subject matter. If a japanese reader needs to know by default how people of rank and familiarity are addressed then so does an english reader.
>>187160287>If a japanese reader needs to know by default how people of rank and familiarity are addressed then so does an english reader.And how do you propose teaching this system which is drilled into every Japanese child through years of schooling?The ideal you're searching for isn't translation. It's just learning Japanese and skipping the middle-man, because your ideal isn't possible any other way.
>>187160287>intentionally dumbing down subject matter.You're just fetishizing the language now. The idea that it's dumber because two languages work differently is ridiculous. To the point it's sounding almost orientalist.
>>187160287No, that's literally what translation is.>It's as much of a farce as if every country picked an artist to do their own version of the Mona Lisa.That's because everyone can see and process the original as it is with their eyes. It's not the same with human languages. Imagine if only French people could see it and photographing was forbidden. Then in order for people in other countries to be able to see one would have to draw it himself from memory. That would be translation which of course would be different from the original.
>>187160320I don't think you need years of education to understand the difference between -kun -chan -san and -sama.
>>1871603671 minute at most.maybe 3 minutes if you have learning deficiency.
>>187160367You do because they mean different things in different contexts.
>>187160320Glossary or TL notes are sufficient. Also we're not dealing with the fucking Art of War. You don't need years of schooling to know why the protagonist of the CGDCT manga you're claiming to translate calls classmate A by -chan, classmate B by -san, and schoolmate C by -senpai. We're dealing with a medium simple enough that due diligence isn't much at all.
>gaijin work set in Japan translated to Japanese doesn't use any Japanese honorifics for the translation because the original work didn't>people are actually fine with this
>>187160415If it's that simple just learn Japanese.
>>187160457ah, the classic "argument" to go extreme or nothing at all.
I don't know how to feel about this
>>187160415>>Glossary or TL notes are sufficient.No, they aren't. You're even dumber than I thought, not only are you stupid enough to think that translation needs to change to suit your ideal, you're also too stupid to realise that what you think of as "true" translation is, in fact, still a vast oversimplification.So you're complaining about someone else eating shit, while you're demanding that you should be able to eat 95% shit instead. You understand that your argument only has one logical conclusion, right? It's learning Japanese, because whining about honorifics becomes whining about keigo, about gobi, about authentic puns, about idioms, about cultural references, about archaic Japanese, and last, but not least, about romaji. And then you're left with a "translation" that's literally just the Japanese subtitle script, and everyone has to learn the entire language to watch Pokemon.
>>187160411Not really, maybe you just don't know their true meaning if you think they change depending on the context.-kun = youngster-chan = a baby aka something cute-san = being polite-sama = being very polite towards a superiorBut either way you don't need years of education to learn how to use them in any depth.
>>187160496>keigo, about gobi, about authentic puns, about idioms, about cultural referencesall translatable
>>187160287>remains>farce>defecation>bastardizing>dumbing downMan, could you get any more emotional?
>Japanese dub of a western>they don't speak in Kansai-ben
>>187160494Should've watched a few more seconds
>>187160511But honorifics aren't, gotcha. Arguments from ignorance don't tend to work out that well.
>>187159978>They understand that probably 99% of them won't get a referenceThen maybe they shouldn't be reading foreign media that uses native references and subjects that they're not familiar with, rather than want the whole fucking thing dumbed down for brainlet retards like themselves. If it's really necessary, that's what fucking TL notes are for. >That isn't what the market wantsAnyone who wants to get rid of honorifics is a fucking braindead drooling retard of the highest caliber and the only thing they should really want is a noose to end their continued drain upon the world's resources and average IQ.>>187160114Everyone knows what sensei means, you fucking cuck. Even if someone didn't know, they'd pick it up pretty fucking quick. You just want shit tailored to the lowest common denominator. The sort of fucking retard that's never seen a single fucking anime before or even knows what the fuck a manga is and is too fucking retarded to figure out simple shit. That anon wants people to stop fucking up shit by dumbing it down for retards like you and he's fucking right to want that.
>>187160510Whelp, I guess children calling their mother kaa-chan is because she's a cute baby. Thanks for the help, EOP.
>>187160203>no japanese versions of MGS and MGS2 for pcIt hurts.
>>187160524exactly, that's why you just loan them.
>>187160363>That's because everyone can see and process the original as it is with their eyes.Anyone can hear a language whether they understand it or not. Someone with no understanding of japanese can watch School Days (or listen to the audio of it) and probably understand that Sekai is screaming at Makoto and killing him because she's unhappy with him for being an unfaithful bastard. Does that mean they are processing it? Does anyone anywhere from any time period know Mona Lisa's body language? The interpretation of her expression as it was created? What her clothes convey? The landscape in the background? Without active study you'd probably get even less of the "original idea" of the Mona Lisa than a non-speaker would get from watching School Days un-subbed.
>>187160547>Implying that translation is as simple as substituting words.
>>187160533Have fun talking like a 5 years old child then.
>>187160574Nice goalpost moving, EOP.
>>187160530>rather than want the whole fucking thing dumbed down for brainlet retards like themselves.I think the same way about translations in general, though.I know Japanese, so honestly I'd prefer it if all EOPs were banned from ever consuming Japanese media. This lines up perfectly with your beliefs, so you'd have no issue with translation being outlawed, right? EOPs just don't deserve to watch anime, none of you have put in the time I have, you must all be low IQ retards.Your argument is untenable. Because the logical conclusion puts you into a bracket where you shouldn't even give a fuck about translations.
>>187160510>if you think they change depending on the context.a thug calling someone kun does not have the same meaning as an old man calling someone kun. Both cases are perfectly translatable.
>>187160573It is as simple as that. you're overcomplicating things for no reason.
>>187160583Go to Jamaica and talk to a 5 years old then to learn English, he's native after all so he knows best. Children using honorifics in silly ways doesn't change how the honorifics are normally used, but next time you're in Japan you can start calling the train -san too. Because that's what Japanese children do therefore it must be correct.>>187160601Both of them are referring to a young person, that's all it means. A girl calling you "big guy" and thugs calling you "big guy" can have different nuances but it still means the same thing, it refers to a guy who is big.
>>187160642>A girl calling you "big guy" and thugs calling you "big guy" can have different nuances but it still means the same thing, it refers to a guy who is big.What if it's a CIA agent?
>>187160593I'm learning jap right now, you lil nigger, you may think you're safe, but I'll get you in a year or two.
>>187160670How do you translate Mr.Trump to Japanese?
>a viewer might be exposed to an honorific in an unexpected context>instead of putting it in the TL note track, I'll just remove honorifics so nobody can possibly get any information ever
>>187160642>the words are the same so they're the same>except they aren'tReal galaxy brain shit. >>187160626I have to assume you're monolingual and have never even tried another language. Some of these notions you have are ridiculous.
>>187160601How do you translate a girl who wants her friends to switch from -san to -chan with her?
>>187160686I can speak 4 languages, bitch.
>>187160691COMMIE LOCALIZERS BTFO!
>>187160684>-san is commonly used between people of similar ages, social standing, ect.Alas English simply lacks the power for that kind of conversation and we are forever lost. If only I could refer to those people I knew in some manner that wasn't rude, but it's just impossible.
>>187160672You'll probably just quit. But if you manage it, you'll be in threads like this making the same kinds of posts I am, laughing at EOPs.
>when the translator translates japanese loan words like tsunami, sushi, karaoke, typhoon, manga, otaku, origami, sushi, ramen, sensei into entirely new words Anyone sick of this happening?
>>187160691It depends on context. "Can't you call me something more cutesy?""Stop talking to me like I'm one of the lads""I wish you'd see me more as a woman"
>>187160686The words are the same, you're trying to make a false equivalence between meaning and nuance here. You can say the word "you" in a dozen of different ways that would change the nuance but the meaning of the word is still the same.Learning the meaning doesn't take years of education and learning how nuances work is a social ability not a language ability. Even if you don't speak a language you can tell if the atmosphere between two people if you have decent social skills.
>>187160719I won't, because even if I could read/watch raws, having subbed/dubbed stuff dumbed down to the lowest common denominator is just going to cause an even bigger flood of retards. While I hate it now because it dumbs down the shit I enjoy, I'll still hate it after, because it will dumb down the place I go to to discuss the shit I enjoy.
>>187160677Generally トランプさん or トランプ大統領. Unless I have to stress 'Americaness' for some reason, then it would be ミスター・トランプ.
>>187160742>I wish you'd see me more as a womanI like where this is going
>>187160663Things could get real painful.
>>187160745>because it will dumb down the place I go to to discuss the shit I enjoy.I hate to break it to you, but the EOP community has always been filled with retards. I can't even discuss most shit here anymore because it's like talking to ants about fine dining. They'll brag about that one time they found half a gummy worm or something while I'm sitting here eating filet mignon.The difference between an EOP who knows what honorifics are and one who doesn't care is like 1% in terms of retardation. You'll constantly see people repeating literal gibberish they heard 4th hand from some other guy who put a twitter post through google translate once and thinks he now has insider information on anime production.
>>187160743Nuance is a different in meaning. What the fuck are you even talking about? you're incoherent.
>>187160742Context: They're all female, already friends and in high-school.>Can't you call me something more cutesy?She doesn't want them to use a nickname though
>>187160677>>187160750Come on guys even Japan knows to use ミスター when localizing Mr.
>>187160743>you can tell the relationship between the characters from the atmosphere and not directly through the honorifics they useHm, you might be onto something. It's almost like honorifics aren't really necessary after all.
>>187160750>japanese can use Mr (english), but using -san and -kun is a taboohahahaha
>>187160807Do you have to be a stuck up cunt to learn Japanese properly or is this just a coincidence?
>>187160817Okay, I'm going to assume her name is Tiffany."C'mon we've known each other for years just call me Tif"
>>187160822Go fetch me a news article where he's called ミスター・トランプ.
>>187160841>japanese high school>tiffanynice try, tiffy
>translate senpai as Mr.>also translate -san as Mr.
>subs translate [name]-chan to [nickname]
>>187160883>Translating is as simple as substituting words.
>>187160807Sure, but that 1% is the difference between being flooded with 500 retards, or 500,000. Having even that much of a barrier up is better than none at all, because anyone who isn't serious enough about a topic to either spend literally one minute learning the general uses of honorifics, or just watching it anyway to get the feel over time isn't someone I'd want to interact with, even over the internet. They'd have to be a combination of both amazingly stupid and irredeemably lazy. Let's not forget also, that honorifics are just one part of it. The OP is about shitty translators that just inject their own random shit because they either don't know what they're doing or think it's funny.
>>187160839People who have mastered Nihongo are objectively superior human beings so it's befitting for us to look down on inferior life forms.
>>187160816No it isn't, it's a fine detail on top of the meaning. It doesn't change what the word itself means.>>187160824A lot of things aren't necessary, like whingeing about translations on 4chan. Hell instead of translating a whole novel you could just summarise what happens in 2 pages, now that's some real information efficiency isn't it?But literature isn't about information efficiency, it's about entertainment, so when it comes down to it, which is more entertaining, having Japanese honorifics or not? And that's ultimately up to the translator to decide since it's subjective anyways.
>>187160883>get to this line>translator commits sukumizu
>>187160841What if her name is Ai? Call me A? The entire episode revolves only around the question of honorifics.
>>187160841>rewriting an entire line of dialogue and altering names because your translation is dishonestNope nope fuck you
>>187160836They don't, they use 氏.
>>187160901Anon, I think you're 100% retarded if you think that's what he's saying. He's saying it's 99% the same.>>187160872I do what I want.>>187160914Yes it does.
>>187150819”Thanks for the food” or ”Bon appetit” always work.
>>187160948>we've known each other for years, just call me by my nickname, Ai-caramba
>>187160950>altering the nameThere was no name given. What the fuck are you on about?>>187160948Then I'd do something different. It's almost as if this is entirely dependant on context and I wouldn't even try to translate something in a vacuum.
>tfw no kana captcha for 4chan>tfw no kana captcha for downloading anime>tfw no kana captcha for living
>>187160982Read it again. He's saying that there's only a 1% difference between the tards on here that know honorifics and those that don't. I'm saying that the 1% difference is what stops us from becoming fucking Reddit or some other shithole that caters to low IQ retards who can't enjoy a foreign work as it was intended.
>Bokuben's subs changed Rizurin and Fuminocchi to Rizzy and FuminoShit like that turns my stomach.
>>187160982Nah, and you haven't managed to argue any of my points with legit arguments. You just replied to everything with "nuhhhuh".-kun means youngster in every context, no nuance changes the meaning itself. But I'm expecting another shitty non-answer from you so I'll just assume that you're a retard trying to double down on a stupid statement.
>>187161019>tfw no 古文 captcha on /a/
PLEASE CALL ME DIA-CHAN INSTEAD OF MISS DIA
>>187160898It's valid.When people are on close terms they can refer to each other by nicknames.If you want to keep honorfics in Japanese settings in that case — it's absolutely fine. If it describes non-Japanese setting, keeping honorifcs is simply a bad decision. Sometimes it would be a bad decision to keep a honorfic even in a Japanese setting. If you translate 山本隊長 any other way than 'Commander Yamamoto', you're a weeb mongrel.
If you don't know Japanese or you're not actively learning it, you are almost as much of a casual as a Narutard.
>>187160901You lost whatever meaningless battle you think you're fighting the day CR became legitimate.
>>187161017The line in question is trying to get their friends to change honorifics.The line you proposed is trying to get their friends to call her [name] as a replacement that doesn't use honorifics.So either Tiffany's name is being changed or you're writing a line where Tiffany asks her friends who call her Tif to call her Tif instead.
>>187161031sasuga viz and friendsWSJ subs are always ultra localized
>>187161035Interesting considering the dictionary definitions are.mister, you, ruler, male name suffix, and the only way you'll decipher the intent is by context morphing it one way or another.
>>187161077>When people are on close terms they can refer to each other by nicknames.But -chan is not a nickname. Names are not subject to translation. Stop turning translation into fanfiction.
>>187161029>I'm saying that the 1% difference is what stops us from becoming fucking Reddit or some other shithole that caters to low IQ retards who can't enjoy a foreign work as it was intended.No, it doesn't.Say I have a bowl of ice-cream. You have a bowl of ice-cream too, only yours is 70% dogshit. While we sit at the table, a new man shows up, and brings with him a bowl of icecream with 70.7% dogshit content.You spend the next few years crying about how someone who eats 70.7% dogshit must be some kind of subhuman and that you can't stand being around them, while you happily eat up your 70% dogshit, safe in the knowledge that you are "superior" to the other dogshit eater.
>>187161087Yeah man we have to go back to the wild west fansubbing era.
>>187161097>or you're writing a line where Tiffany asks her friends who call her Tif to call her Tif instead.Yes, because I'm equating the use of san with a slightly less familiar tone, because I've been given very limited context and have chosen a method that I think is valid within the context I have been given, there are OTHER valid methods. There is no one hard and fast way. With more context I could seek to do something else, or if it was part of an overall body of work I would translate the way they talk in a different way to convey it.>>187161131>implying you reading it already doesn't make it personalised fanfiction
>>187161164>cherrypicking shit subs
>>187161131True, it is not a nickname. Yet both -chan and a nickname would convey the same idea of being on close terms Once again, it may be inappropriate to do so in Japanese setting, but replacing -chan with a nickname in any other situation is valid.
>>187161108Or by not being a retard and understanding that all it does is refer to a young person. Go and write a letter to the retard who wrote that description if you care so much.
>>187161035>君 きみ くん【君】〔接尾〕同輩や目下の人の姓名に付けて、親しみや軽い敬意を表す。主に男性の用いる語。「中村―」◆古くは目上の人に対する敬称として用いた。It's used between equals too and not just towards someone inferior. It's mostly used among males. And in the past it was used towards someone superior as a respectful honorific. That's a lot of meaning change depending on context.
>>187161108>mister, male name suffixSame thing, although it's not strictly for males>you"Kimi" readingDunno where the ruler comes from.
>>187161180Ms. Ringizzle, obviously.
>>187161178Cause it's a classic example.
>>187161177Sometimes you can't even know at the time. What if at a later date a subgroup of Tiffany's friends starts calling her Tif, while others stay with Tiffany-chan?There's no way to work around that that isn't shit so why even start rewriting a story?
>>187161188If the author wanted Japanese Paris not to have honorifics they would have used something other than honorifics. Every setting is japanese in a japanese work.
>>187161035It must be very interesting to live with such a mindset.
>>187161193Between two young equals, two 70 year olds wouldn't call each other -kun, unless they were just goofing around.It is mostly used among males because it is slightly rude to call someone a youngster. Being slightly rude to a male is easier than to a female.Ask a historian about the past not me.
>>187161202>>187161203The example in question is from Boys Nichijou by the way, where someone refers to someone as "Ringo-chan" before correcting themselves by adding a -san at the end. Hence "Ringo-chan-san" which is also the punchline of a joke.So, how do you translate without honorifics?
>>187161266This is a long time limitation of translating things that aren't complete. I wouldn't want to do that personally. So I'm assuming that I have the complete script in front of me and can read through it all and not get caught out like that.
>>187161294We know, but good luck getting an answer from the localization crowd.
>>187161277That's a nice non-answer just as I expected.>>187161193Also just saw what the other guy mentioned and yeah you can read 君 as "kimi" too. That's what the old use refers to. "kun" was never used in such a way.
>entire series is about japanese language puns
>>187161286Not really, no. It's pretty often to hear some middle aged or older men calling each other with kun if you watch or read anything set in an office. You're literally arguing with Japanese dictionaries anon.>同輩や同輩以下の人の氏名の下に添える語。主に男性に用いる。「加藤―」>>187161325I copied きみ part wrongly. くん was used like that too. Open a fucking dictionary.
>>187161294You can't, but localizers will always find a way to make a fanfic out of it,
>>187161270The only problem is that it's not a Japanese Paris. It's Paris described by a Japanese. And a Japanese author conveys social hierarchy the way their language allows. Or you'd argue, that these French people also use SOV order and don't use grammatical number simply because author is Japanese?
>>187161294That same basic joke works in English though. Using a nickname when it's not entirely appropriate and then throwing Miss/Mr in front of it. Not the same, but language jokes don't typically go 1 to 1.It's like how I'd translate 捕らぬ狸の皮算用 as don't count your chickens before they hatch unless there was a particular reason to maintain the specifics, like it's a clue to something in the story.
>>187161310Well, you do you. I actually don't mind dropping honorifics if they aren't ever the focus (part of a joke, the scenario mentioned above), but I have never seen a successful translation of those particular situations.They always end up as either stilted and contrived, complete rewrites, or both.
>>187161357If their language limits the author's ability to convey the Parisian social hierarchy, then that limitation too is something that should show up in the translation. Your job isn't to write a description of Paris in not-Japanese, your job is to make the Japanese description of Paris, whatever form it may be, readable in English.
>>187161353I've only ever seen people in such situations use -san with each other and -kun with a kouhai or an assistant. Not saying that it's impossible to exist, just like how it's not impossible for English native speakers to write shit like "would of". Doesn't mean that it's correct or the norm though.Have fun with your dictionaries then that never provide any meaningful answer. I recommend looking up the definition of 生 in a dictionary as well instead of grasping what the meaning of the concept is. That will be really helpful to you.
>>187161514>Could I be wrong?>No the Japanese just aren't using their language correctly.
>>187161459So, you'd argue that it would be a correct way to translate 今年パリスに２万の移住民が来ました is "this year Paris in 2 man of immigrant came"? It's just as author intended, the same words, the same grammar. Moreover, Japanese number system is different: they use powers of four, not powers of three.
>>187161514What about it?
>>187161310What if you do have a script in front of you and you do know it's going to happen? What if the way Tiffany is referred to is a recurring joke where a variety of nicknames and honorifics and titles are utilized? Localizers are always fucked when japanese nuance becomes the focus rather than just context that can be swept under the rug. An honest translation approach has no such issue, when a clash is unavoidable it must be explained externally.
>>187161558>powers of four, not powers of three.You suck at math.
>>187161585The idea of "honest vs localized" is fucking ridiculous.You can pick any number of methods to avoid problems.
>>187161636localization is always dishonest.>any number of methodsaka fanfictioning your "translation"
>>187161608And that's the man who bashed me for non-answers.Forgive me, o Great Mind, for my lack of mathematical vocabulary as I didn't study math in English.
>>187161551If anything you're just too fixated on dictionaries and definitions instead of the meaning of a concept. You'll struggle with Japanese, especially kanji if you think like that. But yeah native speakers say a lot of retarded shit, saying "but I heard a native say it" isn't really an argument.>>187161566And now for the other 100 ways of reading it.
>>187161660No, that's a man who saw someone being shit at math. I know it can be hard to tell in an anonymous setting.
>>187161685Well, I hope you understand what I mean.In English numbers are split by 10^3 (thousand, million, billion, etc.), while in Japanese by 10^4.
>>187161664>counting name readingsFull retard.Every important reading has it's separate page and they aren't that difficult to read through. 君 has pages both for きみ and くん readings and they both were used to refer to some royalties and shit.
>>187160839Welcome to nu-/a/, please enjoy your stay. Internet hate machine, am I right guys?
>>187161558No, I'd argue that if a japanese written work contains honorifics then honorifics should remain. They are instrumental to understanding the social interactions of the japanese, and this applies equally to when the author uses it describing non-japanese social interactions as well, because it is described in japanese.
>>187161066underrated jojo reference
>>187161801So is keigo and even much more than honorifics themselves which are only a tiny part. Everything must be preserved de arimasu.
>>187161760Go ahead then kiddo, read through all the important meanings and their definitions. Have fun.But it's good to see that 生 still works as a filter to find out who's a complete newbie at learning Japanese.
>>187161846I don't need to read them because I already know them. I'm only doing it because you asked. If you think that 生 is intimidating you're the one who's only starting, EOP-kun.
>>187161844keigo and sonkeigo are translate-able.
>>187161881Not really, how could you possibly keep the same nuance in another language?
>japanese honorifics are essential in conveying meanings in the social environment of a japanese setting, thus should be preserved>a japanese work using honorifics is a part of the real japanese social environment, therefore honorifics used are essential in conveying the author's writing's meaning>therefore, all honorifics used in japanese works are essential in conveying the author's meaningIs this a valid logical sequence?
>>187161871>n-no uNow I understand why you constantly insult people here, you probably spent a long ass time pointlessly reading dictionaries. And you still suck ass at Japanese because you don't understand that kanji represent a concept not a definition.This causes the retarded statements you make and why you always double down on them.
>>187161801But it's the same thing. It's inherit to Japanese to not use grammatical number, it's derived out of conext. It's inherit to Japanese to split numbers by 10^4, it's not that hard to remember the new way, it's not a big deal to remember that 20000 is 2-man, a 3-minute trouble. Or may be you can convey social hieararchy by other means, includin contextual clues, use English grammatical number and the short scale?
>>187161907There are formal language in English too, you know?
>>187161947>out of arguments>proceed to make shitty insultsEOP-kun, please. It's embarrassing.
>>187161907Nuance never translates. Never.You either lose or compensate it, or have monstorus mixes like "I am de gozaru" or several pages of commentary on how Japanese grammar works. You either compromise or don't do translations.
>>187161949>Or may be you can convey social hieararchy by other means, includin contextual cluesI have yet to see a translator succeed
>>187161978Quite ironic when you've been calling people EOP here all thread without any real arguments. Just shows how insecure you are about how much you suck at a thing you spent so much time with.Take this as a lesson and start to properly learn Japanese, maybe you won't make retarded statements like that anymore and you won't seethe at people who point out your stupid statements.
>>187161978Keep parroting the same three letters friend, we all think you're real cool. How many posts in here are yours, about half?
>>187162028>>187162029>page 10goodbye herkz goons
>>187162021It will never be 100% accurate.Just as using honorfics will never be a 100% accurate. Simply because honorfics are a foreign thing in an English text, yet they're native to a Japanese reader. You can't preserve meaning, form and pragmatics at the same time.
>>187162062Enjoy the rest of your life, Anon. I hope you find fulfillment.
>>187162062This board is slow as fuck, the thread still has plenty of time to bully you.
>>187162028>gets BTFO by solid arguments against his empty statements>starts using ad hominem>y-you didn't provide any arguments>proceeds to shitpost insteadWay to prove that honorifics tards are the shitposters. Heed your own advice.
>>187162131>m-muh dictionaries u-u EOPHow pitiful, go and learn a few more years about the nuances of -kun in a dictionary. Because without that it's LITERALLY impossible to use it after all.
There are two fundamental truths about JP-EN translation:>JP-EN translations will always be bad>Because JP-EN translations will always be bad, people will become increasingly dissatisfied with them the more they learn about Japanese.
>>187162203On the bright side, Commie seems to fall further out of relevance every year.
>>187162198>i-it means youngster>no it doesn't>yes it does, i've learned it from my animes>no, here's a native dictionary which proves that it doesn't and you can hear older people using it too>hurrdurr
>>187162203It's true for any language pair.
>>187160947>先輩さんWhat is this niggardly magic?
>>187162084>not translating something is an inaccurate translationgalaxybrain.jpg
>>187162234>my arguments: perfect and logical>your arguments: dumb and inarticulateIt really feels like I'm on /v/ sometimes.Your dictionaries can suck a dick and you can hear a lot of shit, doesn't mean it's right. Or yet again go call the trains densha-san, since you can hear Japanese natives do that, don't mind that it's the 5 year olds.